Daily Kos

Wingnuts in a Star Wars line

Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:35:26 AM PDT

And I'm not talking about the guy with the Darth Vader suit and helmet.

I went to the 12:21 AM showing of Star Wars III: Revenge of the Sith last night.  I got there about 11:00 PM and stood in a long line with people of varying ages and walks of life.  I met up with a friend who is on mid-tour leave from Iraq, and we hung out together while waiting for the film to begin.  The movie was mostly excellent.  There were some uneven moments, but I did enjoy it.  To my story, then.  I was wearing one of my unit t-shirts for the simple reason that I had slept in it earlier and I didn't care to change--it smelled clean enough anyway.

While waiting in line with my fellow moviegoers, We listened absentmindedly to snippets of some of the conversations taking place around me in the three lines for the various showings as we shot the shit ourselves.  The conversations were mostly centered around Star Wars, of course, but also current events and occasionally various personal issues.

One conversation in particular caught our attention, and we listened to it intently.  A gentleman of about mid-twenties or so was holding forth on the 'war on terror,' democrats, Jane Fonda, and so on.  His listeners appeared to be the same age range as he.  "We need to kick these raghead murderers out of the country...kill them wherever we find them...expand Israel all the way to the persian gulf and make Saudi Arabia a subsidiary of Exxon..."
His listeners, two of whom were wearing 'OU Young Republicans' t-shirts, were nodding their heads and making generally approving comments.
My friend just shook his head and muttered, loud enough for them to hear "fucking ignorant assholes."

About my friend, Richard--he volunteered to join a unit from another state because he couldn't find work with he shiny new college degree for almost a year.  He accepted a direct commission as a 2nd Liutenant of Infantry as part of the mission.  He and I had been together as NCOs during the ground offensive into Iraq, and he's as good a man and a combat leader as they come.

The guy turned to us and said "I suppose you 'liberals' think we ought to just let the Arabs take over our country and kill all the adults and convert our children to muslim (sic) huh?"
Richie--"Not likely in any event, but we don't have an army worth the name anymore, thanks your lord Bush.  I'm halfway through a tour over there and I don't see any way we can prevent a civil war, let alone win anything but what do I know?  Back here in the land of SUVs and roses, you have a clearer picture don't you?"  (I had always thought Richie was a republican--what's up with this?)
One of the others said something to the effect that Richie was full of shit, which he countered by producing his leave form and ID card from his wallet.
"We're winning.  Why else would the insurgents do these large attacks that they know they can't win?  It's frustration, or make sure they stay in the news.  Things are getting better there all the time, but you probably can't see it at your level."
"If we're winning, how come the insurgents are even able to stage these large attacks?  If we had that level of control, they wouldn't have any safe assembly areas from which to attack us in any numbers.  All we can do is react to them, which means they have the initiative.  That's bad," I said.
"They're attacking mainly Iraqis now," said one.  "They're afraid to come out and fight us" she said.  "Three things," said Richie, "one, attacking Iraqis is a great way to start a civil war-that's a lovely thought-a three-way civil war with us in the middle, and two," he said, "they're attacking us more than enough as it is, thank you, and three," he asked, "are you in the military?" "No, but I support the troops and our Commander in Chief," she replied.  "Then what's this 'WE' shit?  It's not your ass over there getting IED'ed and RPG'ed and shot at and mortared, so who the fuck are you to talk about 'we'?"  "Come on, I'm sure the young republicans here all have yellow ribbon magnets on the SUVs their daddies bought them-go easy, man.  They support us," I said. (One could, in fact, hear the italics in my voice.)
"He's been there, and got the t-shirt," Richie said, making a twirling motion with his finger to me.  I turned around so they could see the image on the back of my shirt.
"Well, with attitudes like yours, we won't win," one of them said.
"Then why don't you join up so you can go over there and show us how it's done?" asked Richie.  They looked away.  "That's what I thought," he said, "so why don't you all shut your fucking yaps since you don't even believe in your own shit enough to stand up for it?"

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  •  Outfuckingstanding! (4.00 / 97)

    Sooner, you and Richie go have some beers and send me the bill!  Great job!

    I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

    by Wayward Wind on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:37:11 AM PDT

    •  hah.... (3.83 / 6)

      Good job of standing up to those retards. I thoroughly enjoyed your diary.
      •  HOLY FUCKING SHIT!! (4.00 / 8)

        TAKE THAT!  KICKS THEM WHILE THEY ROLL INTO A FETAL POSITION.

        AHH!  AAHHH!

        AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWESOME!!!!!

        •  It seems that the new, correct (4.00 / 12)

          terminology is now "Hole Fucking Sith." At least thats how it appears reading so many Star Wars comments.
        •  Contemptible, contemptible cowards (4.00 / 42)

          Sooner, I'm not pleased you told them where to go.  I'm angry they were talking that trash in the first place.  

          And I'm angry that you can't yet report them to a recruiting office under the terms of the "Walk The Talk Recruiting Act 2009", which says that any civilians caught bloviating in public about what big war-winning troop-supporting patriots they are can be drafted without delay and sent to the front.  

          •  ROFL! (4.00 / 4)

            Walk The Talk Recruiting Act--love it!

            Fritzburgh An'at--Politics, Culture, and Whimsy from a Chipped Chopped Mind

            by Bob Quixote on Thu May 19, 2005 at 10:05:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think (4.00 / 23)

            I'm going to start carrying cards with contact info for the local recruiting office.  "Here you go, call this number right here."

            "The map is not the territory."

            by grasshopper on Thu May 19, 2005 at 10:09:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Recruiting office cards & SUV magnets (4.00 / 18)

              That is a great idea, I'm going to do the same, and start putting the recruiting office cards under the windshield wiper of every SUV with a "Support our Troops" magnet.

              Let's see how many of these rich repugs want to go to Iraq and get shot for Bush's cronies to be able to make a fortune on the war and suck up Iraq's oil.

              Call the cowards out!

              •  If you find a Honda Pilot (4.00 / 4)

                With a yellow ribbon bellow the blue star flag and the John Kerry for President bumper sticker that would be mine.

                So don't bother with the flyer, we are already giving.

                Interestingly the yellow ribbon for those who don't remember,  was brought to current popular culture when the Iranians took the hostages. The song was popular and a woman,  Penne Laingen, wife of Acting Ambassador Bruce Laingen (democrat) who was taken hostage with 52 embassy staff members, tied a yellow ribbon around the tree in front of her house near DC. When the current iteration came around she was given a couple of the magnets by her husband. She decided not to put them on as the political climate was such that she felt it was a "pro-Bush message. She kept the ribbons around her trees going and said she was happy with that. Also she added that it means,  "Come Home, We Still Love You." That ribbon was donated to the Library of Congress July 2, 1991.
                Source:
                LIBRARY OF CONGRESS INFORMATION BULLETIN, 7/15/91, P. 263. NEWSWEEK, 4/12/93, p.8.

          •  Contemptible... (4.00 / 5)

            The highlight of the Senate debate yesterday for me (what I saw on CSPAN rerun, anyway), was Patrick Leahy hissing contemptible... CONTEMPTIBLE... talking about the Republican senators.

            The moment was right up there with Joseph Welch.

            Hanoi didn't break John McCain, but Washington did.

            by Dallasdoc on Thu May 19, 2005 at 01:13:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  AMEN! (none / 0)

            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

            by eyeswideopen on Thu May 19, 2005 at 01:13:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  with attitudes like yours, we won't win (4.00 / 10)

          This comment shows how much contempt these assholes have for "our troops."

          When you "lose" and you can only lose an un-winnable war, they will turn you just like they turned on Viet Nam vets.

          I can only imagine how mad you must be at BushCo for forcing you into a war you cannot win. The best that you guys can do is fight hard to take care of each other. Fuck their witless "mission" and what you can to come home safe.

          If you have got a boss, you need a union. Read www.purpleocean.org/blog/

          by BartBoris on Thu May 19, 2005 at 12:03:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Another Vietnam echo (4.00 / 5)

            As things went form bad to worse in Vietnam, American right-wingers engaged in a growing chorus, denouncing the soldiers in Nam as "losers, druggies, wimps and cowards."

            Every day in every way, Iraqnam gets more and more familiar.

            •  The Vietnam antiwar movement (3.87 / 8)

              ...did not really start to gain momentum politically until the vets started coming home.  They brought the truth to anyone who would listen.  They were there to see the atrocities.  You cannot lie to a vet about what is happening on the front lines.  They know who the liars are.

              On this same track - check out the front page story in today's NY Times- an anonymous interview with three generals who are currently stationed in Iraq... quite a different story from what the clowns in Washington are telling us.

              Congregamus ergo sumus.

              by biotecchie on Thu May 19, 2005 at 05:35:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sort of adds new meaning to the term .... (none / 0)

                stop loss.

                Only the most naive gamblers bet against physics, and only the most irresponsible bet with their grandchildren's resources -- WILLIAM H. CALVIN

                by Randomizer on Fri May 20, 2005 at 05:05:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  good point (none / 0)

                The Vietnam antiwar movement did not really start to gain momentum politically until the vets started coming home.

                If there was one thing taught about Vietnam, I wish it were this. The vets ended the war more than any other group in this country. Forget about Jane Fonda and all that crap.

          •  Trash Talk (4.00 / 2)

            They talk about the Iraq War as if it's the NBA play-offs.

            Most of these elitist Republicans have never worked any "real" jobs..i.e. Wal-Mart/McDonalds. They've had their lives handed to them on a silver platter just like their AWOL "President". They wouldn't be able to handle the rush-hour-drive-thru shift at Burger King, much less handle combat!

      •  I agree with the intent (4.00 / 7)

        of this post, but I take exception to the use of the word "retard", (I've seen it in other posts as well)
        I have a nephew who is autistic and "retarded" and
        has more compassion and intelligence than the right-wing fanatics among us.

        Sunlight is the best disinfectant

        by historys mysteries on Thu May 19, 2005 at 05:07:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Absofuckinglutely, (4.00 / 4)

      Recco this diary - it's the most hopeful thing I've read in a damned long time.  I sure as hell hope other folks in line heard the exchange!

      When "stupidity" suffices, why search for any other reason?

      by wozzle on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:54:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you need another round.... (4.00 / 18)

      .....send ME the bill!  

      This, plus the diary from a few days ago about the commencement speaker, show the hyprocrisy of the wingnut brigade.  Keep fighting the good fight.

      And thank you and your friend's service to our nation.

      Andy
      Sarasota
      USN 1981-87

      The Alton Weekly Inquirer! News roundup with snark returns on September 5th!

      by AAbshier on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:13:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly what (4.00 / 2)

      the first trilogy has been lacking -- some serious, Han Solo-style truthspeaking sass!

      Hell, I'll just send you guys my Amex number and let you decide where to use it. [G]

      "You with your big words, and your...small, difficult words!" -- Peter Griffin
      ePluribus Media

      by Penny Century on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:36:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Amen! (4.00 / 12)

      Nothing like being brow-beaten by an actual soldier. Republican or not, a bunch of jerks talking about how to use a situation they have no grasp of for their own political agenda is annoying--doubly so when it's your ass that's on the line.

      And yeah, it's great how they're all Couch Commandos. Of course, we probably wouldn't want them to sign up anyway. But maybe we could put them all on a big boat and sail them out to... oh, i don't know... Russia. It's a big place, the Russians would (with any luck) hardly even notice them.

      As an aside: Damnit! Bloody college Republicans. When the revolution comes, they'll be first against the wall and all that.

      The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

      by Shapeshifter on Thu May 19, 2005 at 11:44:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "couch commandos," perfect (none / 1)

        LOL!  Maybe my head's been under a rock lately, but that's a term I haven't heard yet.  It's perfect.  It becomes part of the Black Max lexicon as of now.

        Aside, re "comes the revolution:" I'm [probably] not for lining up the college Rethugs and actually shooting them, but I'm all for lining them up and making them think they're going to be shot.  They know that if the tables were reversed, they'd gun us down without compunction, so they'll be quite sure we'd do the same.  It'd be fun to listen to the whining and squealing and pants-befouling...and just for kicks, we'll videotape it so they can't claim later that they "stared down the barrel of the liberal guns and said with a sneer through twisted lips, 'Go ahead and shoot, you bedwetting bastards, and God bless America.'"  We'll have the proof that it will be more of a case of, "Eeeeee!  Eeeeeee!  Don't shoot!  You can fuck my daughter, bugger my son, flay the skin off my wife, just don't shoot!  Here's my credit cards!  My Swiss bank accounts!  Here, shove that broom up my ass!  Just don't shoot meeeeeeeeee!"

        Heh.  Sorry 'bout that, sometimes I get a bit carried away.

        The History Commons needs your participation.

        by Black Max on Thu May 19, 2005 at 12:31:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm for... (none / 0)

          Lining them up and then laughing at them.

          Laughing at them would be much better than humiliating or killing them. Though techically: i'm for lining them up and then having the whole nation laugh at them.

          And "Couch Commandos" is something i just made up (as far as i'm aware) when i wrote that post. I think i'll be using it more, also, though.

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Thu May 19, 2005 at 01:13:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Chicken Hawks (none / 1)

            You wanna laugh at them, let me pimp Roy Zimmerman's Chicken Hawk song again. Ever since I heard it I've found myself Bawk Bawk Bawking at odd, unexpected and totally random moments.

            I didn't walk the walk but I can talk the talk
            Bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk ba-ba-bawk
             - Chicken Hawk by Roy Zimmerman

    •  Rich will be in my prayers.. (none / 0)

      I wish him a safe tour and I hope he will return home again in one piece... as for those ignorant jackasses I guess thats what happens when you huff to many nitrites
  •  Excellent exchange (4.00 / 4)

    Go Richie!
  •  Right awn (none / 1)

    Those yahoos have obviously been seduced by the Dark Side.

    We shall fight them on the internets. We shall fight in the Starbucks, and in the streets, we shall fight them on the Hill. We shall never surrender!

    by bhlogger on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:39:49 AM PDT

  •  Your Future Solders (3.96 / 25)

    from today's Seattle PI:

    "Yesterday senior Timmel Bowens, who has signed up with the Army but is still trying to pass the aptitude tests, said having recruiters on campus is "cool" and that the PTSA resolution is "not right."

    "Why would you prohibit recruiters from coming to high schools if there are students trying to join up?" he asked, after picking up a giveaway computer game called "Special Forces" from recruiter Porter's freebie table.

    He has seen the game before. "It's like you go 'round and just kill people basically," said Bowens.

    That works for him, onscreen or in real life, Iraq -- or whatever.

    "To me, going overseas and killing people, I would feel happy about myself for that," he said."

    •  other videos games offered... (4.00 / 2)

      [satire, with a great deal of respect to those brave enough to serve]

      SOCOM: No Backstory Necessary

      Grand Theft Auto: Baghdad

      Mortal Kombat: Urban Invasion

      Redneck Rampage: Killin'em Sumbitches

      Max Payne: The Beginning

      Halo 3: The UN Security Council Laughs Retroactively

      I lost my faith in nihilism

      by PanzerMensch on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:33:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The republican favorite (4.00 / 20)

        Nascar 2005: going round and round in big fucking circles, but actually getting nowhere real fast.

        McCain: a noun, a verb and Obama....

        by God loves goats on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:47:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  LOL! (4.00 / 4)

          now, that is hysterical.  I'm in the middle of Nascar central.  

          Now, this is the part of the whole nascar thing that I cannot get my blue brain around...

          Our nascar raving fanatics friends go to Talladega and other nearby races, and go through all the trouble of DRIVING to them, paying for hotels and meals and whatnot.  Not an inexpensive investment for entertaintment.  Well, they tell me that it's SOP for "smart" nascar fans to leave at when they hit 100 laps left in order to head off the traffic leaving these things.  Because if you start leaving the closer it gets to the end or when the race is over you'll spend upwards of 4 hours just to clear the region of where the race is.  Since the tracks are in remote areas it's usually just one highway in and one highway out.

          But WTF?  you LEAVE before seeing who wins?  You just spent enough to feed and shelter a third world family to see cars go in circles, but then you LEAVE before the checkered flag gets waved?

          ...whatever....

          •  To be honest (none / 1)

            I have attended 2 NASCAR races, but being the good lib that I am, I used mass transit and had no problems getting in or out.
            I make fun of nascar, but I really do love it.  I know many people don't see the point of racing, but most things we enjoy as recreation are pointless.
            Watching NASCAR is a nearly perfect methaphor for watching politics.

            McCain: a noun, a verb and Obama....

            by God loves goats on Thu May 19, 2005 at 11:32:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not really (4.00 / 2)

              If NASCAR were a metaphor for politics, I suspect we would all be in a much better place.

              Because the irony is they're making nothing but left turns...

              •  VERY good point! (none / 1)

                always making left turns!! LOL!!! LOVE IT!
                •  My husband and son (none / 1)

                  love NASCAR racing and have gone to a race or two also.  The last time they went they (8 guys total) rented a motorhome and left the morning after the race to avoid all the traffic.  It's nice to read about all these Dems being NASCAR fans- it's obviously not a Repug only sport.  

                  The "always making left turns" line is great!    

                  •  I watch NASCAR (none / 0)

                    I'm not deeply into it.  I don't know who most of the drivers are.  I do like to watch the pit crews, and to guess at some of the strategy behind decision-making during the race, like when to pit, when to change four versus two tires, when the driver should hang back and when he should go for it--that kind of thing.

                    "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

                    by soonergrunt on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:09:14 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Since the thread went NASCAR (none / 0)

                      First. I am ignorant when it comes to NASCAR so you don't have to rip me for that but...

                      Does anybody think there would be value in the kos community, along with as many progressive groups as want to join, sponsoring a Liberal or Progresssive Pro-Troops driver?

                      I know groups like Operation Truth* have limited resources for marketing but if we can find just one driver and some small donations from many, we might be able to reach an audience that has, for the most part been ignored.

                      I am not thinking the cash is available for the whole car to go "daily KOS" but even a section that spreads a bit of the message would be helpful. Of course the other side of the marketing would be to get some rightwingnut to notice even a small ad and make a HUGE stink about how un-American we are, so we get more media than otherwise.

                      *I am only using Operation Truth as an example to make a point.

            •  You took public transport to watch NASCAR? (none / 0)

              I have attended 2 NASCAR races, but being the good lib that I am, I used mass transit and had no problems getting in or out.

              Wish I could have seen that. Didn't even know it was possible.

              But, it makes perfect sense! If the sign of a good show is that the audience is singing its theme song on the way out, I suppose I'd be crazy to try to leave a NASCAR event in my own car.

              Why is there a Confederate Flag flying in Afghanistan?

              by chimpy on Thu May 19, 2005 at 02:43:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In Las Vegas (4.00 / 2)

                you purchase a package rooms, tickets etc. including transport by the casino to the race.  It's a great time.  It's a party.  Even if you are not a race fan, these things are events that should be experienced.  In a lot of places a NASCAR race becomes the second or third largest "city" in any given state for a period of time.  
                You really don't go to a NASCAR race to watch a race.  If you want to watch a race, watch TV.  

                McCain: a noun, a verb and Obama....

                by God loves goats on Thu May 19, 2005 at 04:30:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Or Shadowman.... (4.00 / 2)

        ....You play through the whole frigging seventy or eighty hours of the thing, working your ass off, only to find at the end that all unwitting you were doing the Devil's work every step of the way.

        And he doesn't even say thank you to you....

    •  That dumbass (4.00 / 13)

      is gonna find out that in real life, the fucking video game shoots back.

      This message has not been approved by the corporate media.

      by jre2k8 on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:49:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No Pause (4.00 / 4)

      No Extra Lives
      No Off Button

      Big Joe Helton: "I pay Plenty."
      Chico Marx: "Well, then we're Plenty Tough."

      by Caelian on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:56:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I bet he'll be less happy that no cheat codes (4.00 / 2)

      are available to him when he gets overseas.  

      Don't be so afraid of dying that you forget to live.

      by LionelEHutz on Thu May 19, 2005 at 10:53:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  He is still trying to pass (none / 0)

      the aptitude tests?  This guy is too stupid to breathe.

      We do not rent rooms to Republicans.

      by Mary Julia on Thu May 19, 2005 at 02:40:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The last time someone learned how to kill... (none / 0)

      ...from a video game was at a place called Columbine High School.

      If everyone (even people who now hate each other) give you the same advice, chances are it's good advice.

      by cskendrick on Fri May 20, 2005 at 03:20:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I hope they get Drafted.... (4.00 / 8)

    ...these are the types who cry for their mamas, when the shit starts.

    McCain: He's Constipated and Ready to GO

    by Al Rodgers on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:40:27 AM PDT

  •  Kick ass! (4.00 / 6)

    I salute you and your buddy, for your service over there and over here. Keep it comin'!

    The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views.

    by DFWDem on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:42:31 AM PDT

  •  "shut your fucking yaps" (4.00 / 16)

    beautiful. said with authority. If only we could get you two on tour to decend and apply the righteous beatdown wherever loudmouth chickenhawks yap. Hey, ever think of trying to get on Faux News? O'Reilly would love you guys.
  •  it's quite frightening... (4.00 / 27)

    how extremists college-age republicans can really be.

    They will defend the most grotesque things just to be a "team player." At my College they used to routinely argue that "war is necessary for our economy and to keep up our standard of living."

    "Muslims need to be told who's boss."

    "They don't know how to take care of their own oil, they burn it and waste it. We should just take over."

    "(referring to protesting kids getting killed by US troops right after Baghdad takeover) If they resist our democracy, they should be shot."

    •  That kind of shit... (4.00 / 18)

      is Vietnam all over again.

      "Muslims need to be told who's boss."

      "Them "gooks" need to be shown who's boss." "Them little dirtbags can't even run their own country, we 'mericans are gonna show 'em how it's done."

      •  ..indeed... (4.00 / 15)

        ...this is post-civil war type stuff..Jim Crow, KKK, Lynchings, etc.

        "Them (blacks) don't know what to do with votes, even if they had them!"

        "They're dumb and lazy and aren't worth the skin it took to make them! They don't DESERVE to be free"

        "They're one step away from savages, why don't we just send 'em all back to Africa"

        etc.  Insert inane diatrabe-laden racist drivel

        It is amazing how much can be accomplished when you don't care who gets the credit - Harry Truman
        PoliticalCompass Scale: -2.13, -2.97

        by floundericiousMI on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:05:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I heard this just last weekend (4.00 / 16)

        Some wingnut sabotaged my first book signing, and he repeatedly interrupted me and my guests, saying "They're all Arabs, aren't they?  So what if no Iraqis were on the planes on 9/11.  They're all Arabs!"

        Yeah, and so are the 140 people in the village in the mountains of Afghanistan killed in one single bombing raid in October, 2001.  They never saw the twin towers, they could care less about bin Laden or any war on terror, but damn it, "They are all Arabs."

        Great diary.

        Blind Faith in Empty Language is Not Patriotism

        by ColdFusion04 on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:24:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  They are all mostly white guys with short hair (4.00 / 2)

          up on the hill,  just like that Timothy McViegh guy, right?

          McCain: a noun, a verb and Obama....

          by God loves goats on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:51:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yep (4.00 / 2)

            He was a white guy, with short hair, and his wife was standing behind him, rolling her eyes at every word he spoke.  ; )

            Blind Faith in Empty Language is Not Patriotism

            by ColdFusion04 on Thu May 19, 2005 at 10:00:59 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They're military wannabees (4.00 / 8)

              They drive SUVs because they SUVs (especially Hummers) are "manly" vehicles that seem as if they would be used in the military.

              They get military-style haircuts.

              But actually JOIN the military?  Gosh, isn't that the part where you have to get up at 5 am and spend the rest of the day wondering if today's the day an RPG has your name on it?

              I run into these sorts all the time.  When they begin preaching to me about what it's like to be in the military, I pull out my ID (it's ten years old, but the photo still looks like me) that shows me at a rank of captain (British army) and ask them about their dates of service.

              I find that the most vocal and ardent supporters of right-wing militarism have never, ever been in the military--nor do they have any plans to join.

              However, their Great and Beneficient Leader, the Conqueror of Iraq, Scourger of Fallujah, He Who Is Bush the Junior, may have other plans for them.

              Naw, that's crazy talk--Bush will just draft the poor kids (especially the Latino and black ones).  His daughters will never wear a uniform--and if they did, it'd be some cushy behind-the-lines assignment like Daddy got during Nam.

              There are three kinds of people: Those who see; those who see when they are shown; those who do not see.

              by Shadowthief on Thu May 19, 2005 at 01:18:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I guess we should kill all white guys then (none / 0)

            I mean, Hitler was a white guy, wasn't he?
        •  and the guy bush was holding hands with-- (4.00 / 8)

          the saudi bush was holding hands with is arab, too

          those were good times, as far as we knew --colbert

          by AmericanHope on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:56:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No they're not (none / 0)

          They're all Arabs!"  Yeah, and so are the 140 people in the village in the mountains of Afghanistan killed in one single bombing raid in October, 2001.

             Afghans are mostly Pashto-speaking Pashtuns, Persian-speaking Hazaras and Tajiks, and Turki-speaking Turkmen and Uzbeks.  If there are any Arabs in Afghanistan, they are foreigners, some of whose purposes are very doubtful (like bin Ladin's terrorists).
             I hope that nobody thinks that the exact language or ethnicity of anybody living east of the Euphrates is a trivial detail.  If Afghans are "Arabs", then we might as well all be called Russians.  Russian-American cultural, linguistic and historical ties are as close or closer than those between Afghans and the Arab world.

    •  Every war/hate group is like this... (4.00 / 12)

      ...If they were human like you and I, we couldn't kill them, on a whole. Plus, it allows us self-absolution. We have to demonize them and make them less than human so we won't feel guilty killing them. We can maintain our "moral" authority that way. We don't have to realize that we have flaws and may have pissed people off enough through our own actions to make them want to attack us. If "they" are subhuman, then "we" are right in killing them.

      I don't mean this in the sense of a soldier being thrown into war having to defnd himself or save a friend, I'm talking about the larger, societal, wartime psyche. Which in part, I think leads to many of the stresses returning soldiers endure, since the Soldiers who were there know the "truth" of the situation, as displayed by Soonergrunt's diary, versus the people who only know the greater myth shoved down their throats Or, as in those young Republican responses, most likely willingly swallowed. They are Bush's Monica's.

      The sleep of reason produces monsters.

      by Alumbrados on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:39:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Important point (4.00 / 18)

        Whenever my daughter asks how people could commit the large evils in the world -- the Holocaust, lynchings in the South, 9/11, etc. I always stress to her the danger of people reducing the humanity of some outside group as compared to their own.  I tell her to be wary of anyone who claims one group is "less human" or less worthy of all the rights we believe we ourselves should have.  I warn her that that is always the way that the greatest injustices and evils begin.  I think she has taken the lessons to heart.  She now notices when people make comments that seem to demean another group and understands the danger of it.

        John McCain doesn't think kids need health insurance

        by katerina on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:50:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  you mean these people don't (none / 0)

        spray that icky green shit all over when you blow them up?  Damn.  Who knew?

        McCain: a noun, a verb and Obama....

        by God loves goats on Thu May 19, 2005 at 04:42:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Why do they hate the president? (none / 1)

      W has said repeatedly that he strongly disagrees with those who say
      And I -- I simply do not agree with those who either say overtly or believe that certain societies cannot be free. It's just not a part of my thinking.
      . (This is part of a long rambling few paragraphs which basically say "Arabs can govern themselves).

      I've heard w say this sort of thing several times and I wondered who he was refering to - obviously he talking about his rabid supporters who just take it for granted that he's lying.

      "The room was dark as an honest politician's prospects." -- Dashiell Hammett

      by being released on Thu May 19, 2005 at 10:07:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  shocking but true (4.00 / 11)

      It always amazes me how the Republican Party pretends to be a "big tent" with all sorts of diversity (remember the racial minorities who were prominently dispalyed for television cameras during the 2000 and 2004 conventions?), yet is full of all sorts of racists who show their true colors as soon as the media disappears.

      In the past year, I've personally heard Republicans on the campus where I teach openly say things like "Mexicans are good for nothing except cheap labor" and "gay people ought to be shot" and my personal favorite, "John Kerry should be barred from being president because his wife isn't American."

      Sometimes, Republicans forget where they are and say things that get in them into trouble (Trent Lott, for example). But for the most part, they understand how the facade works, and pretend not to be extremists in public.

    •  Yeah... (4.00 / 3)

      College Republicans are a real problem these days.

      At my younger brother's college they've taken to literally holding inquisitions on which professors should be driven out for being "too liberal" and sticking hammer-and-sickle pictures on their office doors, etc. They've got a newspaper on campus in which they smear the curriculums (in the edition i got a copy of: smear curriculums which mention poor people) of professors and so on. They run anti-woman/anti-feminism adverts in the paper--specifically, trying to end the Vagina Monologues.

      Actually, since they're an official(?!) college publication they have a website.

      Anyway, i'm thinking of playing the Anarchist Street Ninja next year and infiltrating my local College Republican chapter. If i'm lucky maybe i'll get "how to hurt Liberals [read as: anyone with the audacity to disagree with you]" session from Grover Norquist himself!

      The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

      by Shapeshifter on Thu May 19, 2005 at 11:59:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  USA! (4.00 / 8)

        At my college, a few people started a new club called U.S.A., the advertising was all patriotic and contained the American flag, etc. So a great many of the Repug kids showed up for the first meeting.

        After a long rant bashing the US Government and Foreign policy the organizers revealed that USA stands for "United Socialists and Anarchists." That really pissed them off.

      •  OMFG...St. Olaf has a Young Republicans group? (none / 0)

        Ugh. I went to Carleton College, in the same small (Minnesota) town as Olaf. The very idea that St. Olaf (which we always joked about as being uptight, all white, conservative, moralistic, etc.) would have this group of wingers whining about "liberal" profs is about the funniest thing I've ever seen. Have your brother tell those goons to step across the river some time--they ain't seen nothin' yet!

        "Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then they get elected and prove it."--PJ O'Rourke

        by David J on Thu May 19, 2005 at 12:29:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heh! (4.00 / 2)

          My brother's roommate is (last i checked) Republican and when he saw the College Republican's "newspaper" he said something to the effect of "Actually, maybe I'm not a Republican anymore..."

          St. Olaf is actually pretty liberal compared to some of the other places around here--though not Carleton, of course :P

          I'm pretty sure the College Republicans at St. Olaf wouldn't step onto the Carleton campus if you paid them.

          They actually started picking on a math prof (one Prof. Zorn) who is, according to my brother, the absolute least political guy on campus. Which is, of course, probably why they started in on him. Blindside someone to build momentum.

          Here, lemme transcribe some stuff:

          ...A Professor in the Mathematics department, Zorn only brought up his field a couple of times, much to my relief. At one point, I heard the words "equation" and "pi" in the same sentence, and I decided that I was at the wrong forum. Fortunately, Zorn soon returned to the topic of the debate and I returned to my seat...
          Didn't the author's mommy ever teach her to be polite at events she was attending?
          [Continuing directly] ...Keeping it simple, Profesor Zorn affirmed that diversity of opinion is indeed a good thing and that political indoctrination is, in fact, bad. However, he lamented the lack of concrete evidence to spuport students' claims of classroom bias. I could only wonder how he would respond if students began recording his classes with a video camera... [Bolding mine]
          Get that? "If you disagree with us we'll turn your class into a political circus." And this is the guy who, according to my brother, never once mentioned anything even remotely related to politics in his class.
          ...Gorton [another prof, the "other side" of the debate only not really] also mentioned the idea that liberalism in academia may be perpetuating itself. His slution for conservatives unhappy with this phenomonenon was for more conservatives to enter academia. While several members of the audience nodded in agreement with this profound solution, images flashed through my mind of Daniel in the den of ravenous lions.
          This one confuses me. Is the author suggesting this to be an unnacceptable solution? If so, why invoke Daniel--whose courage in the face of opposition is the whole point of the story, and whose opposition was far (far) more unpleasant than sharing an employer with people whose political views (gasp!) differ from one's own. Was the point that such a suggestion was an acceptable solution? If so, what about the rest of the article--and, indeed, the paper?

          But then again, confusion of ideas was one of the complaints about college students in general and Republicans specifically...

          The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

          by Shapeshifter on Thu May 19, 2005 at 01:07:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  St. Olaf... Republican (none / 0)

          Wellstone is probably rolling over in his grave...

          Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom.... Tao de Ching

          by MyName on Thu May 19, 2005 at 05:01:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think OU (none / 0)

        is big on college Republicans.  It sure wasn't back in my day.
  •  I think you should change your title (4.00 / 14)

    to "Chickenhawk Wingnuts in a Star Wars Line"--because that's just what those cowards are.  Thanks so much to you and your friend for sticking it to them--and thanks (how inadequate that sounds!) for your sacrifices to the country--so very sorry your friend has to go back, may he stay safe and whole.

    ...the White House will be adorned by a downright moron...H.L. Mencken

    by bibble on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:44:54 AM PDT

  •  Richie (4.00 / 2)

    deserved free tickets for that smackdown.  Maybe something else for the fact that he's been in the shit and knows what he is talking about.

    John McCain is NOT a Bush supporter. He may be a liar, a pig, an idiot, a Bush supporter, but he is NOT a porn star.

    by DH from MD on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:45:18 AM PDT

  •  Sweet. (4.00 / 12)

    I've been in this kind of converstaion myself- I'm going to have to remember the 'what's this we shit'  zinger.
  •  Sooner (4.00 / 12)

    Give'em hell!
    Let THEM go over there and with their shiny GOP "right attitudes" win the f**king war.

    I remember some of my Norman, OK uncles talking like that during Vietnam. My mom kept elbowing me because I talked back to them, told them stuff they didn't like.  

    War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

    by Margot on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:46:42 AM PDT

  •  No respect. (4.00 / 14)

    That's what being a Republicon appears to be all about these days.  Never mind anyone's experience, if you're not on Dear Leader's side, you're useless and you Hate America.

    I am an Edwards Democrat.

    by ThirstyGator on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:46:48 AM PDT

  •  YESSSSS! (4.00 / 18)

     We've heard the same rah-rah rubbish from young Bush supporters around here, too.  My husband was in Iraq and we agree- you and Richie are damn right and damn brave.
       Wouldn't it just be great if military home on leave could just collect all those crappy ribbon magnets and turn them in for cash and prizes???
     

    Why did we bother to beat the Soviet Union if we were just going to become it? Molly Ivins

    by offred on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:47:15 AM PDT

  •  These guys are so far out (4.00 / 5)

    that they probably think Star Wars is a documentary.  Thank God you and Richie were there to represent the reality-based community, and with credentials that even those nimrods couldn't ignore.

    Kudos to both of you.

    The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might. - Mark Twain

    by mkfarkus on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:48:55 AM PDT

  •  Go soonergrunt and Richie! (4.00 / 3)

    AAPI Wellesley grad in Austin for Obama! (Obama-(Donna) Edwards '08!)

    by lirtydies on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:49:11 AM PDT

  •  Way to speak with authority (none / 0)

    BTW, tell me what you think about the movies level of depressability. I want to see it, but I'm afraid I would make me way more bummed about the present situation in our country.
    •  I think it's possible to read TOO much into it. (4.00 / 40)

      It is only a movie, after all, and has been in the works for years.  I don't know how much of it is inspired by recent events.
      I suggest that you go and see it and think about it as a Star Wars film, and not a political document.

      "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

      by soonergrunt on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:52:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Lucas's take... (none / 1)

        Lucas said he wrote the plot when Nixon was in office, implying there are some political parallels but not necessarily with our current situation.

        But yeah, it's just a movie. You can dissect its political allegories later when the DVD version (or one of them) comes out.

        The Shapeshifter's Blog -- Politics, Philosophy, and Madness!

        by Shapeshifter on Thu May 19, 2005 at 12:09:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I thought it rocked (none / 0)

      For depressability, it was more the tragedy of the characters that got me.

      The politics of the piece are pretty generic.  You could apply it to the Rome, Germany or any other deomcratic nation that was manipulated from within to become a dictatorship.

      I find it very interesting that that loudest people decrying the politics of Star Wars are the wingnuts.  I guess the sci-fantasy context removes their own ideology far enough away that that can see it for the ugly thing it is.

  •  Richie is now an Democrat (4.00 / 122)

    We were talking in our seats while waiting for the movie to start, and he told me that one of the things he did while home was to change his voter registration to Democrat.
    I told him it didn't seem like him, and he responded that he couldn't be a Republican anymore, since he had totally lost faith in his party.  He's not ready to embrace a lot of liberal positions like I have grown up with--he believes that homosexuals shouldn't be in the military, for example, but he said that he couldn't have as much of an effect as an independent and not voting in primaries.
    I told him to look into Democrats, and he would easily find someone to believe in.  He said that he's looking hard at Clark, and that he's impressed with Harry Reid.

    "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

    by soonergrunt on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:50:21 AM PDT

    •  He's now a Member (4.00 / 14)

      Of the 1.5 % that we need to win next time.....
      •  He's eminently gettable (4.00 / 52)

        He's really soured on Republican foreign policy and piss-poor military management--if you're going to go around the world slapping people, you need big gloves.  He doesn't believe that the role of the US military is to create democracy around the world.  He believes, as I do, that America works best in spreading democracy when people over the world see something here they want to emulate.
        He thinks, as I do, that the military is too small, even leaving aside Iraq, but that use of force is supposed to be our last option.
        About Iraq, he was saying that the problem is that there's nothing to win, and no way to win it.  That's about the most cogent analysis I've ever heard on the subject.  Democracy will only come to the middle east when the people there want it more than we want it for them, and he doesn't believe that Bush really wants democracy in that region anyway.
        He believes that America should be energy independent, and that by doing so, we could give a shit less about the region.  He's saving up to buy a Ford Escape Hybrid for that reason.

        "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

        by soonergrunt on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:05:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perfect....I sooo agree with this. (4.00 / 6)

          "He believes, as I do, that America works best in spreading democracy when people over the world see something here they want to emulate."

          All behold the tamed Maverick, at his master's feet.

          by coigue on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:43:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  All you have to do is to ask yourself... (4.00 / 5)

            "What made more friends for America, the Peace Corps or the war in Iraq?"  You'd think thinking people would be able to figure that out.  Then you realize you're dealing with Republicans.

            Certainty generally is illusion, and repose is not the destiny of man. - OWH

            by blockbuster on Thu May 19, 2005 at 10:24:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  That (4.00 / 6)

          About Iraq, he was saying that the problem is that there's nothing to win, and no way to win it.

          is brilliant.

          Many cheers to you and Ritchie!

          The degree to which you resist injustice is the degree to which you are free. -- Utah Phillips

          by Mnemosyne on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:57:41 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Queries (none / 0)

          When does Richie return and more importantly, does he have access to a computer/internet connection while he is there?  He most definitively sounds like  someone that I would like to get news from while he is on the ground there.

          And IIRC, you are off to Kabul soon, yes?

          I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

          by Wayward Wind on Thu May 19, 2005 at 11:54:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'll talk to Richie about updating me (none / 1)

            from Iraq, but since I got two emails from him in the first six months, I wouldn't hope for much.
            As for me, my Guard unit is currently scheduled to depart for training in May, '06 with deployment to Afghanistan in July, '06 timeframe.
            I may be back in the regualar army by then.  I haven't been able to find work, and soldiering agrees with me, so--well, we'll see.

            "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

            by soonergrunt on Thu May 19, 2005 at 02:17:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I just welled up with tears (4.00 / 6)

      That just made my day. You and your friend are true patriots (even if he didn't switch parties.)
    •  Sooner, can I call you my friend? (4.00 / 9)

      You don't know me, and I don't know you, other than what you've written on dKos, all of it which I appreciate.

      I'd like to have you in mind when I say things like "I have friends in the military who think you blowhards that support the military with only your blind trust in politicians are cowards."

      (Looking back at this, I do need to widen my circle of friends.  Off to http://www.anysoldier.com/index.cfm)

    •  Nice diary (none / 1)

      You made my day.

      One thing I hope that we can educate here on dKos is tolerance.  That while a lot of people do believe in fundamentally Liberal ideals, they don't all agree with some of the more extreme positions.  The fundamental Liberal ideals should be the litmus test, not the extreme positions.

      (0.00,-3.13) "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

      by Steve4Clark on Thu May 19, 2005 at 09:33:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference (4.00 / 2)

        One person's extreme is another's fundamental.

        Homosexual rights, for example.  For me, they are fundamental civil rights.

        •  Although I agree about the tolerance. (4.00 / 2)

          I didn't always feel the way I do now about homosexual rights.  It's not that I was anti, I just didn't have an opinion.  It took time and exposure to arrive at my current world view, which undoubtably will continue to evolve with more time and exposure.

          There is room in our party, IMO, for people who disagree on an issue or two, but agree with most.

          •  I see what you are saying, but... (none / 0)

            I think you can get others up to your point through good education.  However, but making it a litmus test will not result in what you want.  That is, people will pander to you maybe to get a vote, but won't be very committed.

            Now there are things which I feel are more fundamental such as economic freedom and security, etc.  We need to go back and focus on that.

            My parents are extremely anti-homosexual, but they voted for Kerry because they view the economic issues as fundamental and important.  So they see past the Republican bluster machine.

            But unless you really stress those fundamental issues, people are going to vote GOP because they are caught up on the fringe.

            I have a friend at work who is practically a Communist in his economic views, but because he hates abortion he votes GOP.

            (0.00,-3.13) "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."

            by Steve4Clark on Thu May 19, 2005 at 11:15:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Tolerance (4.00 / 2)

            never hurt anyone.

            They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

            by Limelite on Thu May 19, 2005 at 08:24:08 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  On gays in the military