Daily Kos

Tired of gays whining about marriage?

by jaysea

Sun May 08, 2005 at 04:59:35 PM PDT

Want to do something for the Conservative Cause?

Are you one of those people who believes that being gay is a choice, a product of poor parenting?

CHRIS MATTHEWS:  You don`t think it`s nature?  You think it`s nurture.

JERRY FALWELL:  I don`t think any--I don`t think anybody is born a bank robber or born a hostile left-winger or a hostile right-winger or gay or a promiscuous heterosexual. I think there comes a time in childhood where environment may be a part of it, whatever, teaching, instruction, one chooses, I will do this or that.  And that`s why good, godly parenting...

Source: MSNBC Hardball - December 2, 2004

"GOOD, GODLY PARENTING"

Now, this is just the beginnings of a theory, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a lot of boring studies to back me up yet, but hear me out.

What is the biggest problem facing Conservatives today? Gay people, right?  Now, where do all those gay men and lesbians come from?

My thesis, after the break...

I have two Conservative parents.  Yep, they love Bush.  They love Fox News.  They hated Clinton. You heard it here.  I'm now out of the closet on this shameful fact.

Well, my Conservative parents contributed to the problem, you see.  They parented one of those homosexuals.  In fact, twice.

So, let's see what Good Godly Parenting by Conservatives can accomplish:

Vice President & Mrs. Dick Cheney parented a lesbian daughter, Mary Cheney.

Mr. or Mrs. Parents of Newt Gingrich (okay, I'm too lazy to do the research) parented a lesbian daughter, Candace Gingrich.  Being a half-sister to ol' Newt (still love that name!) she only shares half the genes with him, so is that a point for the genetic debater or the parenting debater?

Ambassador & Mrs. Alan Keyes parented a lesbian daughter, Maya Marcel-Keyes.  Okay, maybe he was REAL busy running for President, then having to move to another state to run for Senate to save us from Barack Obama.  Maybe Mrs. Keyes is the culprit here.

Mrs. & Mr. Phyllis Schlafly (being anti-ERA, she'll love that) - parented a gay son, John Schlafly.

Mr. & Mrs. Randall Terry parented a gay son, Jamiel Terry.  Okay, he WAS adopted, does that count?

Mr. & Mrs. William "Pete" Knight parented a gay son, David Knight He even got "married" during California's brief flirt with same-sex marriage, despite his father having been one of the state's leading opponents.

Dr. & Mrs. Charles Socarides parented a gay son, Richard Socarides.  Now, this must have been a real slap in the face to the man who founded NARTH and was renowned as an anti-gay psychiatrist.  To add insult to injury, Richard became liaison to the gay community under Bill Clinton's White House.

Ready for my proposal?

Ban marriage for Conservatives, and Good God!, don't let them get their hands on any children!

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Permalink | 163 comments

  •  Impeccable logic (4.00 / 10)

    Your proposal is right on the money! ( And lets not forget Mr. & Mrs. Mehlman - little Kenny's parents.)

    Moderation, the noblest gift of heaven. - Euripedes

    by recentdemocrat on Sun May 08, 2005 at 04:55:12 PM PDT

  •  Good job. (4.00 / 2)

    Come up with more names of Conservatives with gay relations.  Then, we should start a list which we can start circulating.   God, I hate these hypocritical bastards.

    Oh, right, I need to be "tolerant" of others views.  

    Jail to the Chief Jail to the Chief

    by Barbara H on Sun May 08, 2005 at 04:55:53 PM PDT

  •  Excellent Research (4.00 / 4)

    I think this is why Lynn Cheney got so freaked out at the debate when John Kerry brought up the fact that her daughter was a lesbian.  A fear that she would be accused of being a child molester or a bad, ungodly parent.  A lot of people still beleive that being gay is a result of being molested as a child.  Even some Kerry voters.  That's why we need sex ed so badly, to educate people about the truth.

    Build the Wilshire Subway!

    by SoCalLiberal on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:02:59 PM PDT

  •  I've been doing my best to expand the base (4.00 / 26)

    I tried and tried to get my parents to have more children, after they successfully produced two of us.

    Well-behaved women seldom make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

    jc's designs

    by jaysea on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:17:45 PM PDT

    •  Even if your parents (none / 0)

      have finished expanding the base (thank you Ma & Pa Jaysea), you can continue to expand the base yourself. And take the children to see their grandparents as often as possible.

      In 2006, the Congress; in 2008, the White House; in between, out of Iraq.

      by Nina on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:44:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  To Be Fair... (4.00 / 6)

    ...nah, screw that, they're not fair, why should I be.

    But as an explanation, for many Christians, especially Protestants who come from a traditionalist, Calvinist approach (such as Baptists), things like homosexuality are a temptation over which one must prevail.  The notion that one is born or not born "naturally" attracted to people of the same sex is sort of besides the point for them, because it just means that it's a temptation that you have to train yourself to overcome.  You may be tempted by homosexual temptations, I may be tempted by drink and gambling and a hedonistic lifestyle, my neighbor may be tempted by sloth or adultry.  These are just challenges, and we must, in that theology, develop our Christian discipline to learn to prevail against the devil's temptations.  

    Now, the fact that deeply devout Christian just cannot ever get rid of their feelings of sexual attraction for members of the same sex but they can't develop the same intense attactions for people of the opposite sex should cause the Falwells of the world to take pause, but we know that ain't gonna happen...

    The revolution will not be televised, but we'll analyze it to death at The Next Hurrah.

    by DHinMI on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:33:06 PM PDT

    •  If you tell your... (4.00 / 3)

      children categorically to stay away from the master bedroom closet during the Christmas season, where do you suppose they go first when you leave the house?    I suspect that the Christian right has a strong hand in producing the very desire they're denouncing by making it a perpetual theme and issue.  Moralistic religious traditions have a tedency to produce the very "transgressions" that they preach against because the prohibitions upon which they are based create a desire for the thing prohibited.  Paul himself was aware of this logic of desire, and elaborates on how the law is accompanied by the mortification of the body by producing sin in Romans.  The idea is that the very law that prohibits, say, coveting your neighbors wife creates the desire to covet your neighbors wife.  If you perpetually tell your children that they must never act on homoerotic desires, does this not produce a form of self-monitoring where they endlessly search for signs of such desires within themselves so as to avoid acting on them?  Would this not paradoxically produce the desire for the very thing that is prohibited?  As a result, I think we can reliably predict a great increase in openly gay people in the coming decades as a result of the current persecutions and attempts to legislate homosexuality.  I don't think that it's by any means an accident that we're discovering that so many arch-conservative families have gay children.  What a marvellously rich irony!  The silver lining for those of us in the GBLT community is that the continued emergence of homosexuality in religiously conservative families will eventually make the price of hate directed against homosexuals too high and hopefully bring about a change in both legal policies and moral beliefs about the supposed sinfulness of such sexual orientations.

      by Philoguy on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:33:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think it's the other way 'round (none / 0)

        I truly believe that at least a "tendency" towards same-sex attraction is inherited.  The parents aren't making their children gay, the parents are making themselves repressed because they recognize (and have been taught to loathe) the characteristics in themselves.  The kids get a chance at close range to see how well that works, and split from their parents' neuroses.

        Rubus Eradicandus Est.

        by Randomfactor on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:26:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well... (none / 0)

          it's nice that you believe this, but so far there's been very little scientific evidence corroborating your opinion on this matter.  As I see it, the popularity of the explanation by innateness hypothesis is that it is politically useful.  I don't think that sexual orientation is innate, nor do I think that it is a simple choice.  People on the right like to treat sexual orientation as a simple choice because then they can make it a moral issue, while people on the left like to treat it as being the result of nature as they can then de-moralize the issue.  Yet there's a third possibility which is neither.  I see sexual orientation as a complex product of both natural and environmental forces.  Society and discourse are among the more powerful of these social forces.  Children in fundamentalist families encounter a particular discourse about sexual desire from a very early age which treats homosexuality as a desire that we have but which must be avoided.  This has formative effects on sexual identity.  Given the attitudes towards sexuality among the Christian right, it comes as no surprise to me that we're encountering high instances of homosexuality in these families.  Similarly, the actions of Jim Baker came as no surprise to me back in the eighties, nor the actions of many priests in the Catholic church.  The difference here is that homosexuality is a viable sexual orientation, whereas the actions of Baker and the Catholic priests are indeed moral issues.  If you're interested in issues surrounding the discursive construction of gender identity, you might consider reading the work of queer theorists such as Judith Butler or Michel Foucault.  In particular, I'd look at Butler's Gender Trouble which gives a strong account of how all sexual orientations are constructed, and Michel Foucault's The History of Sexuality:  An Introduction.  Both of these theorists have been strong activists for alternative life styles and have developed powerful theories debunking the myth of the naturalness of heterosexuality.

          by Philoguy on Mon May 09, 2005 at 11:22:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Huh? (none / 1)

      Whoa there, DH...

      Calvinism and most baptist theologies are, within the context of Protestant theology, antithetical in many ways.

      The vast majority of Baptists utterly reject at least one central tenant of Calvinism: infant baptism; and the vast majority of Baptists also reject the most famous of Calvinist doctrines: predestination.

      There are Calvinist Baptists, but, they're about as rare as Siberian tigers in Mesa.

      A surprisingly good explanation of Calvinism is available on Wikipedia here.

      www.isebrand.com and ReligiousRightWatch.

      by IseFire on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:59:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Mr & Mrs Randall Terry's (4.00 / 5)

    adopted gay son is proof of hypothesis! You have discovered the new gay threat: conservative parents. This is more shocking than gay parents adopting, or gay teachers, gay soldiers...
    Well, actually,
    Welcome to the real world, conservatives!

    In 2006, the Congress; in 2008, the White House; in between, out of Iraq.

    by Nina on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:47:23 PM PDT

  •  Keep the children away from the Priests (4.00 / 2)

    or, keep the Priests away from the children

    so much for "Good Godly parenting"

    cause a Priest is supposed to be a FATHER, right ???

    yeah, I know, it was a cheap shot, but any church that protects pedophiles deserves all the low blows it gets

    by knowthings on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:50:27 PM PDT

    •  And some of us priests are gay! (4.00 / 5)

      ...but only us Anglicans will cop to it.  It is truly amazing how many queer folks are attracted to ordained ministry - priests, rabbis, ministers.  Haven't met a gay imam yet, but I'm sure they're out there.  Well, not "out" out, but you know what I mean...

      "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

      by fishhead on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:56:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is it the fashions? (4.00 / 3)

        Clerics have always had access to the most fabulous outfits, after all.  

        I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

        by Dallasdoc on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:25:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The theory (none / 1)

          I read/heard somewhere recently a theory as to why homosexuals are drawn to the clergy, particularly those denominations where chastity is a requirement. The theory goes something like this (the rationale of the prospective homosexual clergy member):

          1. Homosexuality is bad, wrong, immoral, etc.
          2. I am a homosexual.
          3. If left to my own devices, I will engage in homsexual relationships.
          4. Those relationships will damn me and draw the ire of society, relegating me to the role of a degenerate outcast.
          5. The clergy requires that I remain celebate.
          6. If I have to remain celebate, I can more easily deny what I am.

          Interesting, eh?

          ITMFsA!!

          by Auntie Neo Kawn on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:44:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  or much simpler... (4.00 / 4)

            It allows a life of heterosexual celibacy without anyone getting suspicious.

            by tritium on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:17:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  even better (none / 1)

              you get to be around all those  other priests or nuns.

              (I have a good dyke friend who actually converted to catholicism to be a nun; she tells great stories about how she never made it very far because she "walked like her shoulders were angry" and had "too much self esteem" - direct quotes, she assures me, from her superiors."  

              by Bec H on Sun May 08, 2005 at 08:52:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I have a friend (none / 1)

              who says the best thing he ever did for his sex life was to join the priesthood.  He did so when he was 15, and left by 20.  If you think the church is about celibacy, you're dead wrong.

              by Farlfoto on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:03:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  My theory (none / 0)

            For what it's worth - gays and lesbians are uniquely plugged into the mutual yin and yang of sexuality and gender that underlies our conflicted identities as created beings - and which is, in fact, the source of spiritual identity.

            "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

            by fishhead on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:10:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  also (none / 0)

            Coming out to yourself requires soul searching because it's not easy to different.

            That sort of introspection in your teenage years might lend itself to people following a religious path for their life.

            Plus, people who are lonely, alienated, or persecuted would find the religious community safe (if it's one where you're allowed to be out.)

            "Can we all get along?"

            by hotspur on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:21:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  And it's so unfair (none / 0)

          I have to pay a fortune to dress like that, and they get to do it daily and I suppose the church pays for it.  Not fair!

          "People die. Strategies fail. Blame is laid. And we, as a nation, are made to look like assholes." - Brandon Friedman

          by Militarytracy on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:20:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hehe (none / 0)

            I call my black clericals my "Wendy's uniform" - which, btw, I have to pay for (though I can claim it on my taxes as a business expense).  The fancy robes and stuff are usually owned by, and kept at the church.  If you want your own, you either have to pay a fortune (a nice chasuble can run you into the thousands) or hope someone gives you some stuff as ordination presents.  I've heard a couple of bishops complain about the expense associated with buying/replacing episcopal vestments.

            "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." - Pierre Trudeau

            by fishhead on Mon May 09, 2005 at 09:14:51 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Maybe not ban marriage, (none / 0)

    but stop them from breeding at least.

    by retired on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:07:00 PM PDT

  •  Left Behind (4.00 / 4)

    Looks like Tim and Beverly LaHaye's son Lee won't be accompanying them when the Rapture leaves everyone not in Concerned Women for America behind.

    I am a revolting homosexual!

    by MAJeff on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:13:24 PM PDT

    •  Thanks, I forgot about him (4.00 / 2)

      And it even took a village of Concerned Conservative Women to raise that one!

      Well-behaved women seldom make history - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich

      jc's designs

      by jaysea on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:21:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  LAW (4.00 / 3)

        my favorite, from Bloom County:

        Ladies Against Women.

        I am a revolting homosexual!

        by MAJeff on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:23:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ladies Against Women predates Bloom Co. (none / 0)

          If I recall, LAW  was originally a project of a group I think called the Plutonium Players. LAW would come out to demonstrate overly enthusiastically in favor of people like Phyllis Schlafly, picket against abortion choice with signs saying things like "Sperm Are People Too," etc.

          You can find out more here

          Politics is the art of preventing people from taking part in affairs which properly concern them. - Paul Valery

          by inclusive on Mon May 09, 2005 at 03:58:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Mean thoughts (none / 1)

    So if it is not the genes..

     and  Fat Jerry's's 13 year old daughter was raped by a black serial killer with ties to al Queda, do you think the rapists genes would be dominant in his grandchild.

     or maybe Fat Jerry's daughter could marry one of the used to be gay but now converted fags.....would he care about the genes then

      I never want to be so hateful.

     

    Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

    by missliberties on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:15:29 PM PDT

    •  OMG!! (4.00 / 4)

      You just bring up a good point though, and that is how kids are treated to grow up and hate gays so much and look at each other as maybe being gay, and we all go back the way it was twenty or more years ago, when kids played "smear the queer" at the school, and boys had to "prove themselves" by picking on the girls.  

      I hate their world.

      by lilorphant on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:41:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If it's any consolation (none / 0)

        When we played "smear the queer" they just couldn't get me down.  I was little and very limber and I had a great center of gravity.  I was the toughest girl to smear, I think it did a few of the boys some good.  I sure enjoyed the hell out of it.

        "People die. Strategies fail. Blame is laid. And we, as a nation, are made to look like assholes." - Brandon Friedman

        by Militarytracy on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:45:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  welllllll..... (none / 0)


    Another way of critiquing Falwell is that all this gay-bashing keeps on revealing itself as a mess of of scapegoating and mourning, all projection and regret.  At bottom it contains a desire to change horrifying things people did to each other in the past and amounts to an admission of the inadequacy of what 'Christians' are doing with and to each other in the present.  Perhaps the challenges posed by gay people to their view of the past and present are coincidental aspects to the grievance there really is being expressed...were they to be completely honest with themselves and each other.

    Renewal. Not mere reforms. We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. Martin Luther King Jr.

    by killjoy on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:20:15 PM PDT

    •  Mel White. (none / 0)

      He was Falwell's Right Hand (job?) Man for years until coming out of  the closet.

      He's also the father of Mike White, bisexuak co-writer, co-star of "School of Rock" with Jack Black, writer/director/co-star of "Chuck and Buck" and other things as well.

      Paging Doctor Dean.

      by ABBinMI on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:31:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In the immortal words of Chris Rock (4.00 / 13)

    "It don't make no sense to hate anybody.  Because anybody you hate, is gonna wind up in your family."

    I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

    by Dallasdoc on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:26:53 PM PDT

  •  Isn;t there evidence (4.00 / 2)

    that the brains of conservatives are wired differently? I mean, it's not there fault, God made them that way! I know there are all those passages in the bible saying how sinful they are, but God wouldn't make people inherently sinful, would he?

    -3.12, -5.90
    McCain Straight Talk: "I don't know enough about it to give you an informed answer ..."

    by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:30:01 PM PDT

    •  Sure they are (4.00 / 3)

      Lots of yanked-out connections and unused lobes.

      I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

      by Dallasdoc on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:04:31 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read somewhere (none / 0)

        that they only use like 10% of their brains. I guess they're trying to "conserve" brainpower. If they'd just stop breeding, it would save even more.

        -3.12, -5.90
        McCain Straight Talk: "I don't know enough about it to give you an informed answer ..."

        by AaronInSanDiego on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:35:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, NOW they're for conservation (none / 1)

          If only they'd apply the concept to other areas of life.

          As to breeding, I'll toss out another Chris Rock quote:  "It don't take any brains to have a kid.  Even cockroaches have babies."

          I can't expect to live in a democracy if I'm not prepared to do the work of being a citizen.

          by Dallasdoc on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:46:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No, he's right (none / 0)

        "Isn;t there evidence...that the brains of conservatives are wired differently?"

        I remember reading recently that researchers, using PET Scans, were able to identify distinct differences between the brains of liberals and conservatives.

        No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. ~Edward R. Murrow

        by mlkisler on Sun May 08, 2005 at 08:11:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Age (none / 0)

      There actually is a biological basis for conservatism growing with age--the faculty for empathy withers.  The grumpy old men syndrome.  Read that somewhere, honest

      by sharman on Sun May 08, 2005 at 11:01:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think that it has more (none / 0)

      to do with internalized abuse.  Abused people who instead of healing took within themselves making what happened to them "okay", and now it is okay to abuse everybody else.  I suppose that it would wire your brain differently, most definately.

      "People die. Strategies fail. Blame is laid. And we, as a nation, are made to look like assholes." - Brandon Friedman

      by Militarytracy on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:24:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Tired of gays whining about marriage? (4.00 / 11)

    No, but I am tired of John Kerry whining about it.

    I'm also tired of Democratic politicians being defensive on social issues and explaining away the beliefs of a large portion of their own party.

    John McCain

    by joejoejoe on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:34:50 PM PDT

  •  Randall Terry (none / 0)

    Don't forget him.

    http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37979

    by lilorphant on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:37:55 PM PDT

  •  goodness, i agree (4.00 / 4)

    i'm gay.  i grew up going to church every sunday (catholic church). i was the president of my catholic youth group, i'd participate in church activities (INCLUDING A FUCKING LIFE CHAIN when i was too stupid to know any better).

    i remember when clinton got elected my parents told me the country was about to go to hell.  yes, i was raised by bigtime republicans in texas.  and i'm gay. so fuck jerry falwell.

    is it facism yet?

    by Treefingers5 on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:41:03 PM PDT

  •  X'n upbringing (4.00 / 3)

        I went to Sunday school and church until I graduated from high school.  We went every week.  We simply did not miss, unless we were ill.  If we were away, we went where we were.
        I was baptized on Palm Sunday, a Protestant tradition.  I sang in choir from the age of 6 until college.  I started in choir again while I was in graduate school.  (I had not yet discovered Saturday night and gay bars.)  I was ordained a Presbyterian deacon while in graduate school.  (Basically, Presbyterian deacons go visit the sick, shut-ins, those in hospitals, etc.  It's a good works kind of post.)
        To this day, I do not hate God.  I do not hate my church.  (Indeed, when I realized I was a fag, I talked to my Minister of Christian Education about it.  He told me as long as I wasn't hurting anybody there was not a problem.  This was in the late 1960's.  That particular minister was married with children but was also a fan of Barbra Streisand, something I'm not.)
        The old bad experience I can remember was one Sunday when visiting one of my Great Aunts.  Her church had a minister that Sunday who was of the fire-and-brimstone school.  He scared me so much I started to cry and couldn't stop.  My parents were furious -- with the minister.   So was my Great Aunt.  She let the regular preacher have it when he returned for letting someone in the pulpit who would scare children.
        I despise the intolerance of both the right and the left.  The right needs no explanation.  However, I get really annoyed when someone who was raised Mormon or Roman Catholic or some other authoritarian faith tells me that my religious upbringing must have been the same as theirs and, therefore, I should hate religion.
        It is annoying beyond belief to see these leftists be every bit as intolerant as the right.  Who are they to tell me how I was reared when they weren't even there?
        Perhaps if we could have some spokespersons every once in a while who didn't have as much hate in their hearts as the right wingers, we might make some impressions on the people.
        I'm just intolerant of the intolerant, I guess.

    by ScarySteve on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:41:07 PM PDT

    •  Preaching from the pulpit (none / 0)

      Now it sounds like you had a very good church experience.  I, too, am Presbyterian and do not recall gay bashing during my teenage churchgoing years.  I have come across the intolerance elsewhere and in other churches, though.

      However, we do know that fear-mongering goes on both in politics and churches.  And why?

      The seven deadly sins are:

      Pride, Envy, Anger, Avarice, Sadness, Gluttony, Lust.

      Now if a bible-thumping fundamentalist preacher started talking about gluttony (say to a congregation that would have a considerable obese component), that preacher would thin out the crowds pretty quickly.  It is much easier and attracting to a larger population if they point the finger at "others" without dealing with the sins that are the ones that are really supposed to count and the ones that we all are guilty of in one way or another.

      by jzso on Mon May 09, 2005 at 02:35:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One Wrong! (none / 0)

        Not Sadness, Sloth.  That means laziness; the inability to get out of bed on Sunday and hear the word of the preacher.  

        Decisions are made for us by our unconscious; the conscious is in charge of making up reasons for those decisions that sound rational. -- Roger Schank

        by RobotsRUs on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:22:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Search on Yahoo would say we are both right. (none / 0)

          Pope Gregory the Great (d. 604) described Seven Deadly Sins in his Moralia in Job.

          1. Superbia  Pride
          2. Invidia Envy
          3. Ira Anger
          4. Avaritia Avarice
          5. Tristia Sadness
          6. Gula Gluttony
          7. Luxuria Lust

          (Moralia in Job, XXXI cap. xlv).

          The sin `Tristia' was later replaced by `Accidia', or Sloth (Wenzel (1967), 38).

          by jzso on Mon May 09, 2005 at 05:31:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  At least (none / 0)

      You're not a fan of Barbara Stresiand.

      by Farlfoto on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:13:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Truth ? (none / 1)

    I am so tired of the hypocrisy of Dems who love to salm Republicans for being against gay marriage (or "fundie" churches being political) and an orgy of congatulations - and then going into defensive mode when their leaders ( today it is Kerry ) do the same thing.

    We are laughable - if we can't get our own house in order we can't throw stones.

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Sun May 08, 2005 at 06:43:44 PM PDT

  •  Ask The Fuck-Head (none / 0)

    Where HE went wrong then!

    Did HE not provide HIS SON with good, Godly parenting? Or was that his wife's fault?

    And did his own good Godly upbringing teach him to turn his back on HIS OWN SON, when he found out his son was gay? or is he just a fucking hypocrite?

    And what part of good Godly parenting allows you have so much hate, that YOUR OWN gay child commits SUICIDE when you abandon him?

    FUCK YOU JERRY FALWELL!!!!!!!

    May you ROT IN HELL with Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, and all of the other slimy, godless televangelists!

    No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. ~Edward R. Murrow

    by mlkisler on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:36:45 PM PDT

  •  Gay Gene (4.00 / 2)

    I think being raised by Conservative lunatic parents can trigger a latent "gay" gene in their children. In addition to releasing the individual from their own personal hell, this gene inhibits the propagation of the parent's conservative genes.

    Gay people: Nature's way of preventing self-anhililation.

    Please, no rants. I know the above is bad Darwinism, but the thought made me happy.

    WaPo Prints My Letter!!!

    by Kudos on Sun May 08, 2005 at 07:42:14 PM PDT

    •  You know.. (none / 0)

      Sometimes I wish I were gay, just to show another example of "Godly" parents with a queer kid. Actually, my parents, despite their fundamentalism, were (and are) good parents and did a lot of things that made my brother and I the basically decent people we are today.  I think, to contrast with "Growing up Red," they did a great job of showing how money isn't important, that living within your means is wise, that the Golden Rule should be kept in mind.

      I can't choose to be gay anymore than gays can choose to be straight, although I will say the idea of making out with Jennifer Garner didn't bother me before she hooked up with Ben Affleck.  I don't care to be anyplace he's been.

      by Brighteye on Mon May 09, 2005 at 10:29:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Jeez. (4.00 / 3)

    Another one of those gay sons of gay-haters here!

    But what really irritates me is how horribly I've failed to support all the "right" stereotypes at the same time. Damn! So disappointing.

    I mean: I've never slept around; I've never had the slightest desire to dress up in women's clothing; I hate show tunes; most people think I'm straight when they meet me (and, I'm not sure I take this as a compliment anymore, frankly); I've never been to a party named after a color; I don't really like "Pride" parades; I'm a fucking good shot with a rifle; and, I can't and won't cook.

    And yet, GEE WHIZ!, according to the liberal, fucking media's oh-so-progressive programming filled with mincing, lisping faggots enamored of interior design or possessed of an "eye" for fashion, I guess I must not be gay anyway, because surely AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLL "gays" must be like they're portrayed on TV, right? That liberal TV culture that's so progressive that, say, Anderson Cooper and Bill Hemmer can just feel so free and easy that everyone fully understands they're gay, right?  

    Yep...I can imagine how Randall Terry's son must feel: FUCKING SICK OF BEING ASSUMED TO BE EITHER A GODDAMN "TRAGEDY" OR A LIMP-WRISTED PEDOPHILE.

    Thanks for the post.

    Yeah, yeah, I should fight the good fight here in the U.S. of A.; I have my neat-o political blog enjoying ever-increasing readership; I'm active in the politics of a Party whose leaders, like John Fucking Kerry, mince words and commitment the way I supposedly mince down the street, but... you know what? My Brit boyfriend and I are pricing property in Leicestershire, because at the end of the day, there are civilized, first-world, nations (with The Bomb, I might add! Oooooo! And their own navy actively targeting recruitment ads at gay citizens) where this fight doesn't even have to be fought! Places where the conservative political parties have out, gay elected officials.

    On nights like tonight, I've really just about had enough.

    www.isebrand.com and ReligiousRightWatch.

    by IseFire on Sun May 08, 2005 at 08:23:50 PM PDT

    •  It's funny you say this. (4.00 / 2)

      I was arguing with a right winger about gay marriage and of course, he kept saying it was a "lifestyle" and hazardous because of promiscuous anal sex and things like that.  When I, and several others, brought up examples from our own friends of gay men like you who didn't fit the bill (or lesbians), he couldn't even answer.  It was almost like he didn't believe that a person was gay if they didn't fit into his definition of their "lifestyle."  

      "You can't expect people to have the virtue of purity when they are poor." -Bob Dylan

      by tryptamine on Mon May 09, 2005 at 07:24:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn, (none / 1)

      and you have a boyfriend?  You sound just like my type, damnit!

      by Farlfoto on Mon May 09, 2005 at 08:19:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Get Government Out of Marriage! (4.00 / 6)

    First note: You forgot to mention Chastity Bono, daughter of the late Sonny Bono.

    Anyway..the main point...is that marriage is nothing but a bureaucratic contract in the eyes of the government. The word marriage itself has religious connotations, and for that fact, marriage should be considered unconstitutional. Why cannot consenting adults join together in a legal contract? Who are they hurting? No one! Many conservatives say that the traditional family structure is one man and one woman. Nonsense, the most common family structure throught history is one man and several woman. So that argument is dead wrong. How about the children? Does the one man one woman setup best for the children. Not always. Studies repeatedly show that a child's success usually depends on such things as poverty. Also, unplanned pregnancies only happen in heterosexual families! Anyway, the data does not show one kind of family to be superior than the other. So it is not a public good. If it is not a public good, why is the government involved in it? Leaving marriage within government is harmful for the rights of invididuals left wing (gays that want to be one) and right wing (any change of laws forcing you to perform same-sex weddings) Whatever legal contracts made by any number of consenting adults is the business of the adults involved and not the state. So let us just hand out civil unions and let the church define what is marriage for themselves. Everyone goes home happy!

    by the infamous cj on Sun May 08, 2005 at 08:48:44 PM PDT

  •  There is a third possibility . . . (4.00 / 3)

    If it's not nature, and not nurture, could it be that gay sex is so damn hot that try it once, and you're hooked?  After all the Cheneys could be perfectly God-fearing folk and raised their daughters accordingly, but one summer at softball camp for Mary--and look what happened.

    (While I'm saying all this facetiously, I think the fundies, at some level, fear this might be true.)

    by Uncle Toby on Sun May 08, 2005 at 08:49:53 PM PDT

    •  of course they do... (none / 0)

      they are still living in the middle of the last century when the psychiatric manuals listed homosexuality as a mental disorder caused by an "overly nurturant mother" and a "distant autocratic father"... these fucking people have simply not progressed!! and they are pretty damn good, as we know, about ignoring scientific evidence that contradicts their dogma!

      by lezlie on Mon May 09, 2005 at 02:43:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Actually, sounds like... (4.00 / 2)

    ...a research project to me - interview a large enough sample of openly gay people about their parents and find out whether these are significantly more likely to be evangelical, repressed, and conservative than tolerant, liberal, and open.

    Problem is, it should make their heads explode, but it won't. They'll just dispute the results. Not being members of the reality-based community, that won't be difficult to pull off for them.

    Still - I'd very much like to know the outcomes of that one.

    Damn George Bush! Damn everyone that won't damn George Bush! Damn every one that won't put lights in his window and sit up all night damning George Bush!

    by brainwave on Sun May 08, 2005 at 08:55:37 PM PDT

  •  Nicely done, thanks for the diary. n/t (none / 0)

    Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin -SLB-

    by boran2 on Sun May 08, 2005 at 09:42:43 PM PDT

  •  Hey Falwell (none / 0)

    Is anyone born morbidly obese?

    The only place where Republicans are anywhere close to responsible is in the dictionary.

    by DemDachshund on Sun May 08, 2005 at 09:56:22 PM PDT

  •  You're bad for bringing up Mary Cheney's gayness! (4.00 / 2)

    John Kerry learned this the hard way from the GOP and the RWCM during the debates.  Now you must learn it too and be demonized accordingly... bringing up Mary Cheney's gayness (despite the fact that she is open abou