Daily Kos

Debunking conservative talking points: torture

Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 07:35:08 AM PDT

This past weekend I had a series of rather intense arguments with my ignorantly conservative relatives. One of those deals where I won, but they thought they won. I now realize what I should have known to more effectively combat blind pro-administration arguments: their arguments are based on moving from talking point to talking point. Here's a typical exchange:

My uncle: But they're terrorists who hate America
Me: We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard
Him: We've gotten valuable information through these interrogation techniques
Me: The US still cannot tolerate this in any circumstance
Him: Why don't you stand behind the people that defend your freedom?

None of these points will hold up under strict scrutiny, so it is important to change the subject. By not effectively recognizing this, I missed an opportunity to easily win. So for future reference, I'm creating a list of pro-torture arguments that conservatives use, and how to combat them.

The argument that almost all anti-torture people use goes something as follows: American exceptionalism, if it exists, is not a God given right. It results because of our appreciation of freedom, our strict observation the rule of law and our belief in the principle that all people should be treated well. We hold these as universal principles, and see it as our duty to bring them to people who are not free. Torture is something we oppose because it violates both the rule of law (via civil liberties) and the principle that people should be treated humanely. Ergo, torturing prisoners is irreconcilable with our justifications for American exceptionalism. A pro-torture person will attempt to bring several arguments against this:

1) Torture has helped to get life saving information from detainees
The beauty of principle is that it tolerates no exception*. We cannot allow the mentality that the ends justify the means, especially when our most hallowed principles are at stake. Also, the claim that torturing detainees actually helps get information is dubious.

2) They're the terrorists; we're the good guys. They're trying to kill us. Gitmo/Abu Ghraib is nothing compared to Saddam.
Remember, our status as the "good guys" is entirely dependent on holding ourselves to a higher standard. This is the premise of American exceptionalism. As soon as you compare the United States to the terrorists, then you defeat this premise. We can't cave to this kind of relativism. The US should categorically reject torture on the basis of principle. Terrorist is as terrorist does; terrorists torture, not Americans fighting for freedom.

3) *There hasn't been that much torture, and those who've done it have been court martialed/held accountable.
The scandal isn't necessarily that there has been torture. It's that the torture has been condoned by the administration, through their repeal of the the Geneva conventions. Furthermore, Bush has been unable to come out and condemn torture on the basis of principle, or demand accountability in our treatment of prisoners. There has been no review of our standards for treating prisoners during the war on terror.

4) The Nuclear Option: You don't support our troops/you hate America/you support the terrorists
This one is the most egregiously stupid, and at this point, the anti-torture party has pretty won the debate. We're not looking to blame the foot soldiers on the ground. It's the administration higher-ups from whom we demand accountability. Obviously, one of the principles we all hold dear is the freedom of political speech. That's one of the most important things our troops are fighting for, and that's what makes America America, and differentiates us from the terrorists. Furthermore, it's terrible to invoke "the troops," or "America" in defense of torture. It is ridiculous to assert that some dissent within the American people is going to affect the effectiveness of the Army, especially when the Army's real problem is lack of soldiers and proper equipment.

Well, that should pretty much cover all the pro-torture talking points. Note that when you put 'em together you get the following argument: torture has done some good things, but we don't do it as much or as bad as the terrorists, and when it happens we certainly don't condone it, we court martial them. The point is SUPPORT THE TROOPS! This string is so full of cognitive dissonance and contradiction, it's hard to know where to begin.

The use of shifting talking points that don't hold up is common among dogmatic administration apologists. I will compile similar lists for some other issues.

*Thanks to the Washington Post editorial on flag desecration amendment.

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Permalink | 9 comments

  •  Support the Troops (4.00 / 2)

    In relation to torture arguments, there actually is a very good retort to support the troops which is namely blaming all abuses on low-level foot soldiers and refusing to take accountability further up the chain is not only not supporting the troops but is profoundly demoralizing to them. How do you think it feels when reservists get blamed for a policy condoned and encouraged by the administration?
    •  Wes Clark (none / 0)

      said it best.....

      www.securingamerica.com

      It was posted yesterday and is worthy of shoving in the face of ignorant relatives.

      Warner/Clark '08 - Republican Nightmare Ticket

      by Clark04 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 07:44:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  thanks (none / 0)

      have updated

      "At no point are we not going to value the sanctity of life. We would resuscitate him, then execute him." - a california prison spokesman

      by cubicalization on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 07:46:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What you can point out... (none / 1)

      is that released FBI reports said that the techniques used actually further angered the detainees and were counterproductive.

      In addition, the FBI said that there time tested techniques of traditional questioning were more effective.

      Torture particularly when it involves regular sexual assault and sodomy is inconsistent with American values and damages our moral authority.

      Torture is illegal under international law and by approving it administration officials have put the men and women at risk of being charged with war crimes.

      Honor bound to defend freedom. Freedom is long-standing army regulations.

      by RichardG on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 07:47:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And how do you know they're terrorists? (none / 0)

    Anyone who says "They're the terrorists" is simply assuming that the people we're torturing are known to be terrorists.  Don't fall into this trap.  We're torturing people who haven't had any sort of trial, are we not?  Force your adversaries to admit that it's OK with them to torture suspects!  This seems even more unAmerican to me.
  •  How many innocent people (none / 1)

    are you willing to torture just on the off chance that you might accidentally hit on a guilty one?

    That's what all this boils down to .... when you read the details of how all this is done. People get picked up at random and then the process is stupid and haphazard, not designed at all to figure out whether anyone is guilty or innocent. Read the materials at the Center for Constitutional Rights:
    http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/home.asp

    The cruelty is exceeded perhaps only by the stupidity. We make the Keystone Kops look like competent professionals.

  •  Supporting troops? (none / 0)

    The top of my head wants to blow off when I hear soldiers and politicians complaining that questioning the war or calling for troops to come home is somehow not supporting the troops.  The unspoken argument that is being made is that those who sent the soldiers off to a war of choice without adequate body and vehicle armor are somehow supporting the troops?  Rep. Slaughter's post from Tuesday about the shortfall in VA health funds and the Republican committee members' refusal to endorse an ammendment to get them the funds are supporting the troops?

    Anyone in Congress who votes against adequate armor and health benefits for troops should have their own health coverage revoked and should have to depend on the VA for their health care!  They should also have their secret service protections terminated as well.  What's good for one federal employee should be good for another!

Permalink | 9 comments