Dating and the Class Divide

I have a date tonight, first one in about eight months.  I'm a little nervous, for both the regular reasons (Will I like him? Will he like me?  Will we both sit there suffering in silence?) and another reason that feels even more prominent at the moment.  He owns a business that has experienced tremendous growth in the past year.  I'm a temp who beat the poverty-care line by $20 for an emergency room visit this winter (I did have insurance, though).  There's a bit of a class difference here, and that's incredibly discomforting for me.

In part, that discomfort comes from what we can't do.   To be honest, at this moment in life, I can't even afford to go out for a decent dinner, something I really, really enjoy.  Right from the start, I have to place limits on what we're able to do.

He could, of course, pay for dinner if that's what we chose to do.  But that, too, leaves me feeling uncomfortable.  It's not that I don't like being treated, it's that I can't pay for dinner.  The difference in ability to pay flows from disparate control over resources.  In other words, he's got more power than I do.

But the power differential is only part of it.  It's a subjective thing as well.  A couple friends of mine are talking about buying houses.  I'm wondering if I'll have enough to cover deposit on an apartment later this summer.  Some of the daily concerns in our lives are very different.  Buying a house is the furthest thing from my mind, indeed I doubt I'll ever be able to do it as I'm relying very heavily on loans to pay for my graduate education.  I've got a mortgage worth and it scares the hell out of me.

It's this feeling of uncertainty (not yet desperation) that's so disquieting.  Not having control over your life, not being able to do the things friends take for granted, worrying daily about whether or not to buy that extra soda...it can wear on you.  There's a line in Michael Franti's song  "Rock the Nation":

but do you feel me when I say I feel pain everyday
when I see the way my friends gotta slave
and never get ahead of bills they gotta pay
no way no way!

Franti's overall song describes a situation much more desperate than the one I find myself in.  I'll get by, and I've got a future career (committee willing) that will allow me to do some of those things I so enjoy and can no longer afford to do.  Others are far from that lucky.  I feel weird writing about being poor, since I do teach college...I am a professional and I've got it a lot better than a lot of other people.  I have worked as a Professor and have made a fairly decent living.  Right now, I'm not.  However, there are also a lot of folks in situations similar to mine, eking out a living, managing to tread water, keep a roof over our heads and food in our stomachs, to survive.  That work can be tiring; treading water is exhausting.  Do it long enough and your legs can give out, your head sink below the surface, and your lungs fill with water.  It's easy to drown if no life preserver is ever thrown out.

I still remember the first (and only) time I flew business class (they'd forgotten to give me a seat assignment, so I got this one as the plane was boarding).  I didn't know how to act.  I didn't know the drinks were free when I was boarding (I did figure it out by dinner time), and that's why I refused them (who wants to pay for overpriced airline drinks?)  It was great!  I actually had enough leg room.  And at the beginning, it was incredibly uncomfortable.  I'm not "of" the people who usually sit up there, and I'm always aware of that.

More than anything, this post is about the little ways that this can enter our subjectivity.  My feelings of not quite being able to pull ahead; of, yes, intimidation and inferiority with a potential date of means; the fact that I spent my elementary school years living in a trailer and cringe when I hear "trailer trash"; all these things are related. They flow, in part, from my own class-based experiences and they shape the ways I interact with people.

I'm not sure where this is going, to be honest.  I'm just trying to play with this, to figure out the discomfort, to figure out what to do about it.  And I hope it doesn't fuck up the date.

[Crossposted at CultureKitchen and BooMan.]

•  A good microcosm of our reality

  Grew up middle class, and faced with a lower class lifestyle because of our current economic policies.

  by Steven D on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 04:36:18 AM PDT

  •  I think part of it for me

    is that I didn't grow up poor...grew up working middle class.  It's the shift in means that causes ruptures in our subjectivity.  This was a hard post to write, because nothing felt right.  It felt overly indulgent because, as I said, I don't have it as bad as some other people.  But, I am poor right now.

    In Bastard out of Carolina, Dorothy Allison does amazing stuff with the phrase "those people" when talking about class and being poor.  Wish I had her way of expressing it--that book is one of the best looks at class I've ever read (and I don't think it ever uses the word in this sense.)

    by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 04:41:21 AM PDT

    •  loved that book....its tears your heart out

      by poochie on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:36:00 AM PDT

    •  im sending this diary to my boyfriend

      he is trying to eke by...and im rolling in cash right now....it wasnt always this way and i keep telling him it wont always be this way...i tell him all the time money is green paper....i have it right now and i want to have fun with it and with him....he fights me all the time over it....he doesnt want me to spend money on him, he doesnt want to go to dinner because he cant afford to pay the check, he doesnt want to travel because he cant pay his way...its frustrating the hell out of me....i told him the other day im going to japan and either he is coming with me and is going to enjoy it or im finding someone else...and i mean someone else entirely....i understand his feelings...i really do...i used to have them....but i am down here in florida visiting my much older relatives and i see that life aint so great when you get old....they spend an awful lot of their time dealing with health issues and the rest of their time drinking to forget their health issues....i want to have fun now while i still can and i want him to put aside the ideas and feelings that society forced on him and let me bankroll a few years of adventure before its too fucking late.

      jeff....6 months ago i was heavily in debt and hadnt done much of anything in 3 years while i recovered from a few surgeries...my husband has paid my bills for a long time and i didnt feel bad at all because when we first got married i paid all the bills for like 10 years while he looked for his "dream job"....although he was getting tired of it and we both wanted to work on separating finally.......then i read that book "Who Moved My Cheese" and i felt my brain reorganizing within hours....that one phrase in the book "What would you do if you werent afraid?" really resonated with me....i honestly found a way to make cheese from nothing...a lot of cheese....and i have 50 ideas of how to make more cheese but no time to do it.....i've been a poor grad student so i know you dont have a lot of time...but there is always something you can do to make money...i know this guy who goes to golf shops, takes pictures of used golf club sets and sells them on ebay for more than the price in the shop, gets paid, goes back and buys the sets (so he hasnt put out any cash up front at all)...and he is making like $1000 a week profit....thats a brilliant idea and anyone could do it with any number of items...my point is i read your diary and i know you spend a lot of time on kos...i used to spend a lot of time on kos and other sites too....that time now goes to making cheese...i miss a lot of action i am sure but im going to fucking japan!!!!!!!!!!!

      good luck hunny and let us know how the date goes.

      by anna in philly on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:05:23 AM PDT

    •  Cash not class

      It seems like you difficulty has to do more with cash than class, you are essentially middle class and should have money coming in at some point.  The divide is neither of upbringing or of permanent nature.

      I have been on the other side of that.  Dated a girl who was working sporadically as a temp, while I had a decent job.  She couldn't afford much, so I usually picked up the bill (my first relationship where I did, or could do that).

      What would annoy me was when she suggested expensive places that she wasn't planning to pay for, and when she wanted to cut back on our mutual expenses once she got a more permanent gig and I wanted to split expenses more evenly.  She seemed to have more respect for her money than for mine, that really got met (even worse was a year later when I was a student again and she mentioned that she had a big savings account).

      I have also been on the same side as you, when I couldn't afford the same as my girl or more often some of my friends.  I don't like going out to something which I cannot afford that one time if they were to decide to split the bill.  I am more than willing to let someone else insist on paying so long as I don't have to depend upon them paying every time, and don't have to fear that they will drop some of it on me.

      My advice is that you shouldn't worry about it, until after the third date or so.  By then you'll know if you will go on enough dates for it to matter and if he is the kind of guy who has enough class to make it less of a problem.

      by Luam on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 07:09:01 AM PDT

•  Had the reverse

  When I met my wife she was a legal secretary, single mother trying to finish her BA. I had done well during the Clinton years and was, honestly, pretty flush. I was happy enough to pay our way...plus, her tastes were richer than her budget.

  Now it is harder because the Bush economy has hit us hard and I am facing unemployment and she is a grad student. But the divide between us economically was never really an issue since we had so much in common otherwise. I think similar education is more important than similar income, personally.

  by mole333 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 04:41:36 AM PDT

  •  Part of my struggle

    thinking about this post, and this issue in particular, was that of gender.  Is my reaction partially a result of being a man?  I'm not sure if it's maleness, Midwesterness or what, but I've ingrained this sense of doing (or paying) for yourself when you're able.  I'm not sure how of the role it plays, but I can't help but think it's there...

    by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 04:45:44 AM PDT

    •  well,

      Jeff, I feel the same way, about being dependent on others, paying for myself, etc. I was born in the northeast to lower middle class parents, and I'm a girl. I think it's got something to do with how we take personal responsibility for ourselves. We were taught to stand on our own 2 feet and if things got tough, the belt got tightened until we were able to work up out of it. I don't know. Hard to explain. With my ex-fiance, I always felt like I was less because his family had so much more. He loved me anyway, but I always had that feeling. I hate it. Now, being in Boston, I don't even bother dating or even trying to get a date because money's tight, I'm unemployed, and don't feel I measure up even close to the guys I'd want to go out with. Not sure any of this helps your situation, but know you're definitely not alone. Cheers, mate.

      by petal on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:22:11 AM PDT

      •  I think when you're female, it

        can go either way... many, or even most, women are more comfortable with "mating up," so they don't mind being the poorer partner.  Women like me, on the other hand, are even more prickly about it because I don't want to fall into the female-dependent trap.  There are too many accommodations that go along with being the less powerful person in a relationship, IMO, and while plenty of women seem to think that it's just natural for them to live where a partner wants to & adapt to his lifestyle, it's not natural for me because I can't not be aware of inherent inequality.  So I just try to date people who are my equals economically, because it's more comfortable for me to negotiate than to become a cliche.
        

        by latts on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 07:57:20 AM PDT

•  Sweetie

  If he didn't see something in you besides status, he wouldn't be going out with you.  Let him pay.  He's an idiot if he expects you to pay for anything expensive.

  You have to accept the fact that, at least for awhile, there are things you can't afford.  Just in case, have alternative suggestions on things to do that you can afford.  (Picnic in the park, anyone?)

  Best advice my mother ever gave me before a date?  "Just be yourself, honey."

  by nolalily on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 04:48:12 AM PDT

  •  Got a bottle of dessert wine

    waiting....soon as I have someone to have a moonlight picnic in the park, I'm making a chocolate cheesecake and we're breaking out that wine under the stars.

    It's the feeling of not having power, of being dependent that I really hate...that's a big part of it...it might relate to the gender issue I mentioned in a comment above.

    by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 04:55:12 AM PDT

    •  chocolate cheesecake

      Oh, honey... anyone who can't appreciate a man willing and able to bake a good chocolate cheesecake deserves neither man nor cheesecake.  :)

      This is a good subject to bring up, actually.  You have started me thinking about money and relationships.  Off the top of my head, I'd say, yeah, I bet gender is involved to an extent.  I'm female and come from a working middle-class background--I think (perhaps someone should do a diary on how we define these terms).  I've also lived all my life in the South (Texas), with men who were trained to open doors and at least offer sincerely to pay on dates.  That sort of implies that the guy is going to be the one with the cash, I guess.

      Money-class differences bother me mainly in terms of power and sex--I picked up early on the quid pro quo aspect of who pays for what and how.  And when I don't pay my own way, I tend to feel uncomfortable.  Habitually I'll say something like "Thanks for lunch.  I'll get the next one, okay?"  It puts me on a more secure footing.  

      I don't think, however, that's the issue for you here.  You have opened up an interesting thread--I have to go to work, but will check back later to see what others say.  Hopefully this will still be on the page...

      Good luck on your date!

      by thorn70 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:51:29 AM PDT

•  As someone...

  who is about to marry a woman who makes more than 4 times what I do (and over twice my highest salary ever), it's not an issue if the two of you choose not to make it an issue.

  If your guy is a decent person, he'll understand.

  by TheGreatLeapForward on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:03:04 AM PDT

  •  that's it

    even if it's not an issue for him, it is something of one for me...i hate feeling dependent...time for therapy again :(

    by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:06:46 AM PDT

    •  dependent

      Maybe you could change your idea of what problem dependency is.  To me, the kind of dependent that needs worrying about is emotional dependency - ie. you can't function without the other person.  Financially, dependent is asking someone to foot the bill for your degree.  That's called mooching. To be temporarily financially strapped because of school and having someone else buy you dinner is not being dependent on them - it's a treat! Relax and have a good time.

      by peregrina on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:02:50 AM PDT

•  You raise some good questions

  but for tonight put all these thoughts out of your mind.

  Be yourself is good advice. If he's a decent guy, he'll like you.

  Then you can start to worry!

  Good luck..have fun!

  by willyr on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:10:23 AM PDT

  •  We're watching Waiting for Guffman

    wheeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

    I'm not supposed to have seen it--and as of Sunday night when we chatted I hadn't.  My supervisor at work brought it in for me on Monday....now I just have to pretend I haven't seen it yet..."You're just bastard people" has been running through my head constantly, so it'll be tough.

    by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:14:33 AM PDT

    •  Love that movie!

      Parker Posey's DQ employee gets me every time!

      by bunny on Sun Jul 03, 2005 at 08:10:59 PM PDT

      •  CORKY!!!!! (n/t)

        by MAJeff on Mon Jul 04, 2005 at 09:22:00 AM PDT

        •  Oh yeah...

          Corky and his "dance." Love it!
          

          by bunny on Tue Jul 05, 2005 at 08:42:25 PM PDT

•  What's been interesting to me

  at least early on, is how many of the commenters are of the "if he doesn't care it's all good" variety.  That's a good point, but the bigger one is that it's an issue to me.  It's about the things I've mentioned in the comments...feeling dependent, dis-ease with the power differential, discomfort in not being able to provide something or reciprocate (or treat)...

  by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:18:35 AM PDT

  •  Jeff, consider the alternative......

    ....if this is tearing you up so much, it sounds like your only alternative is to not date. Yet you seem eager to go on one after an 8-month hiatus.

        See how the date goes, is what I suggest. If it's right, you may well revel in his company and not think about these issues; perhaps it's just a case of mind-over-matter since you've been out of the dating game so long.

        I think you're right that being a man is part of it. I've sat on the sidelines when I had been unemployed before - yet was touched when a woman asked me to dinner years ago, knowing that fact. I was grateful, knowing that sooner-or-later I'd be back in gear. We didn't hit it off, but the feelings lingered.

        And since you have reason-to-believe that your present circumstances will change in time, try just letting things develop. It wouldn't be fair to your date to let your own anxieties affect him, and having that special person to lean on when you're going through tough times is valuable. Why shouldn't you have it, too?

    by Ed Tracey on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:34:58 AM PDT

    •  It's not tearing me up

      but it's an issue...plus, I'm an academic and have to analyze everything to death.

      I am excited. Looking forward to it.  We'll see how it plays out...it's just there, at least for me (and believe me...i've done the not dating thing...this is the third one in three years, and the other two were "practice dates"...wasn't really interested but still needed to get a bit of a refresher in how it's done)

      by MAJeff on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:06:15 AM PDT

  •  I know what you mean

    I've been in your position- poor starving graduate student trying to live on < $10K/year (I don't remember the exact figure) in Boston of all places.  I'd always been uncomfortable having my date pay for everything because I always felt (and yes, I know it's stupid and wrong) that I owed something. If you know what I mean.

    Well, lo and behold I find myself dating the future Mr Brillig, who'd been working as a programmer since graduating college. We set up a strict alternating-treating routine, and I found myself ging broke trying to keep up because I didn't want to admit I couldn't do dinner and a movie or a concert every other week.  At some point, I mentioned what I got paid.  There was this stunned silence and I could see the wheels turning in his head.  Then there was a quiet, stunned question... "A...month?" He made more than that every two weeks.

    To his immense credit, he understood why it was important for me to be able to do stuff for us and not just have him do it since he made over twice what I did (and I still think he undercut his salary to make me feel better!).  What he got me to see for the first time was that the dollar amount didn't have to match.  On "his" dates, we did movies, dinners and concerts.  On "my" dates we did movies (free outdoor showings or videos), dinners (picnics, home-cooked) and concerts (free outdoors or $6 rush seats at Symphony Hall). I felt better, he felt better, and look where it got us... 15 years together </smarmysap> :-)

    Ok, enough about me :-)...

    The difference in ability to pay flows from disparate control over resources.  In other words, he's got more power than I do.

    Just because he's got more money, doesn't mean he has more power. He has more money. You are a strong, smart- from what I know of you here- and interesting man. That's power, too. Based on your career path, you know that someday you are going to be in the position of being able to pay for stuff. If he's worth your time, he'll understand that. If not, I have this friend, a really great guy, in southern NH... :-)

    However- I understand completely that "treading water", as you put it, is exhausting.  We had very little money growing up, and it wears you down wondering every day whether driving 20 miles (big school district) to a friend's house to study or play would destroy the weekly gas budget, or whether anyone would notice you and your Mom split the McDonald's combo meal-even the drink- so your little sister could have a Happy Meal of her own.

     All you can do is keep treading and vow to remember how it felt when you're no longer in that position.  And keep fighting for justice so that the people who can't get out of that place have safety nets.

    Have a great time tonight! And if you're looking for a free night out, can you be in Boston on July 9th? </shameless plug>

    by brillig on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 05:52:56 AM PDT

    •  I've been on both sides.

      I quit a job where I was making a LOT more money than I am now. I left to chase a dream and a new career, grad school, MBA, ya da ya da. Frankly, dating's a lot harder when you don't have a lot of cash. I went on a few dates that I initiated or got set up on. I'll tell you, I should've sent an accountant with my tax returns on a few of them...would've saved me the grief.

      As a result, I really only would date when I was on the road...a friend in this city or that city.

      I'm not a materialistic person and found it troubling that the women I was dating seemed to be.

      I think...think I found a woman that it doesn't matter to but I know how you feel Jeff.

      by Danno11 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:20:42 AM PDT

  •  For Now Enjoy Your Date

    I agree that money should never be the issue with these things.  But admittedly I'm old school - if someone asks me out and they know I don't have the resources to pay, they pay.  If I ask, vice versa.

    But for some next date, if things go well, there are lots of ways you keep a sense of autonomy, equality and empowerment that do not require you to spend lots of money.

    For example, equally wonderful, totally non-expensive dates are any of the following:

    1.  A homecooked picnic, on the beach (or in the park, if one is not available to you.)  Frankly, it's quite romantic for someone to cook for you - at least that was always my experience.  The romantic partners I have had in life have always felt the same.

    2.  Stargazing - but that one always led to "trouble" for me ;)

    3.  Visiting the local museums/art galleries - public spots that you might normally just overlook alone, can become great "get to know you vehicles".

    Just ideas.  Having been in economically disparate relationships all my adult life (I was a dead broke ghetto child, my first husband was from Beverly Hills; my DAH makes 1/3 of what I do and I have twice as much education) and been happy, you'd be surprised how little the money actually means to anyone - except the most important person, you.  So just find ways to methods for giving and sharing that you already use with your friends and family in your day to day life fill the romantic bill, too.  It works.

    Best of luck - I hope your date was/is awesome!

    by shanikka on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:22:25 AM PDT

•  I believe Miss Manners dealt with this

  in one of her books, though I can't recall which one off the top of my head. When you're dating someone "out of your league," as it were, you come to an  understanding that the person paying picks something that's within his means. If that's fast food, then it's fast food. And if it's a four-star restaurant, then that's what it is.

  The important thing isn't where you go or what you do, it's whom you do it with. Some of the best times I've had, not strictly in dating terms, have been things that were practically free: banging around in the backcountry looking at spectacular scenery, visiting state parks or historical monuments, going for ice cream, etc.

  Try not to let your consciousness of the difference in your ability to pay get in the way of having a good time, Jeff. And we're going to want details tomorrow morning!

  by musing85 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:23:16 AM PDT

  •  Pretty please?

    And we're going to want details tomorrow morning!

    Dang, I forgot to say that!  After all this, we have just got to hear how it goes.  Thanks for remembering what's important around here, Michael :-).

    I feel like I'm getting a friend ready to go on a date with "the <maybe>One". Here goes the speech... Jeff, wear something comfortable that brings out your eyes, stay away from controversial subjects (but make sure he's on Our Team, of course!), and relax and be yourself. </girlfriend-mode>.

    by brillig on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:39:03 AM PDT

•  I don't think class in America is about money

  It's about values. Valuing education and intellectual pursuits makes your class different (let's not say "higher") than a wealthy guy who barely graduated high school and owns a carting business, for instance.

  That said, I hear you on the power thing. I always went for guys who made less money than I did and was really incomfortable on those few occasions that I was seeing someone who made really big bucks. What can I say, I'm a strange woman.

  I married a guy who made 2/3 of my salary. Then, after having a child, and having a bad experience being "mommy tracked" without desiring to be, my husband's salary crept past mine ... and it was a shock to my system! Funny thing, both my hisband and I worked for the same company that "mommy tracked me" and promoted him and my husband did as much, if not more of the childcare than I at the time and spent less time at work.

  So I understand you relationship to money. Money was my independence and power too. But it was good for me to surrender my competitive instincts for some communal, cooperative behavior.

  It may be possible that this issue will not go away when you have more money unless you find some peace with it now. My long-time best friend has always had "money issues" with lovers even though he makes a very nice living and generally gets involved with men who make around the same: if the lover makes less, he's content, if the lover makes more, he has intense resentment and ends up sabotaging the relationship. He's well aware of this. (I am his best friend and I pull no punches.) But he's become "set in his ways".

  But this is a very common problem among gay men, let alone most straight men although they don't usually have to confront it. The "masculine role" is still rigidly defined around economic dominance in a relationship.

  The fact that you are able to make chocolate cheesecake and plan a picnic under the stars are another type of power you may not realize is also a key power in a relationship. And your natural intelligence that we've all seen here is a third power.

  Relax! Enjoy. But let the economic mindset go!

  by Glinda on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 06:33:42 AM PDT

  •  hmmm... up to a point

    I think in terms of compatibility & developing relationships that's absolutely the case, but I'd rate economic origins higher than current class, really.

    Here's my deal: I come from a rather poor family.  My parents were poorer than their parents, because... well, because they were irresponsible & needed more therapy than they ever got.  One grandparent helped with bigger expenditures like braces, bikes, first car, but there were times that even utilities were iffy. That's fine; obviously it's not the case now.  But even post-college, when I would date people who were my equals in earnings, there was still a sense of security that they had & I couldn't even understand.  I'd learned to pass for a higher class at all social occasions, so none of this was visible, but the fact was that they had a safety net & I didn't.  It's what we talk about so much wrt policies-- living on the edge creates problems even when everything seems okay.

    Now that I'm older, of course, it's less of an issue, but it still factors into long-term stuff like retirement planning, house-buying, hypothetical kids' schooling, and so forth.  I wish I could say this stuff goes away, but I don't know that it does unless you can move completely into the upper classes.
    

    by latts on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 08:34:23 AM PDT

•  Class is about a lot more than money

   at least when it comes to relating to other people and potential relationships. I grew up among working class people and I'm still far more comfortable in their company than I am among upper middle class types even though my income and job puts me in that class instead. If your date comes from the same background as you then you should be on the same page class-wise regardless of any income difference.

  by Aleks311 on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 08:03:05 AM PDT