Daily Kos

Prom Date Kosher?

Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 10:23:10 PM PDT


I live in Westchester County, New York.  I grew up in Maplewood, New Jersey, which at the time had (and still has, although there has been a large increase in the population of African-Americans) a sizeable Jewish population.

I am a nonfundamentalist Christian of ecumenical bent.  My friends, my social circle throughout my life has been pretty mixed.  Mostly white, yes, but heavily Jewish (as perhaps 40% of my schoolmates were Jews) and Italian.  I'm a half-southern white boy.  My wife's a bad-tempered Italian girl.  (Well, the phrase is mildly redundant).  One of my kid's Vietnamese.

OK, here in Westchester we have a private, Jewish day school known as Solomon Schechter.  It's affiliated with the United synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which strongly disapproves of Jews marrying non-Jews.

These issues are seen, I suspect, differently from traditionally small, persecuted minority populations than by us majority, or anyway plurality white-Anglo-Christian types.  My daughters, and this was something I insisted on, attend a well-mixed school.  Yes, it's a religious school (Catholic) but as many, many of our family friends are Jews, my daughters do not want for Jewish friends and associations.  And their schoolmates, if we can lump white Hispanics, in Merka for not more than a generation, as "minorities," the school is roughly half "minority" (black, Latino, South Asian, a smattering of East Asians, including of course my daughter).

As we are irregular churchgoers -- although perhaps a shade more orthodox than I thought I might turn out to be -- we expect that when it comes to marrying (assuming our daughters will be so inclined in the first place) we will, I expect, ask them to ask themselves how important their Christian beliefs (if they retain them as grownups) are to them, and to give some thought to whether marriage to someone of the same, or a significantly different persuasion -- a Muslim, an atheist, whatever -- might be wise/unwise.  But what we have to say about their choices will, I greatly hope, be addressed to issues of character, common aspirations, whether the attraction is not merely sexual, and so forth.  I am divorced and remarried, but I hope for my daughters to have marriages that last, as I think most of us -- and nearly always, our children -- are better off for it.

As regards the ethnicity or skin color of any lovers or prospective mates, I hope to have nothing to say at all.

That's just me.  It's a big world, I think, and there is room in that world both for people who think that one should marry within one's own religious group/ethnic group or whatever, and people who don't give a hoot.

Hackles are being raised, however, because Solomon Schechter (although it graciusly permits non-Jews to attend school functions such as basketball games) is banning its (all) Jewish students from bringing non-Jewish dates to the prom.

I don't condemn a Jewish parent who prefers, even strongly prefers, that his or her child marry another Jew -- although I don't approve at all of the Orthodox practice of disowning entirely children who do so, and it baffles me, to some extent, that an ethnic Jew who wants nothing at all to do with God, or with Torah, would (as some do) get all huffy about "Israel" (in the ethnic, not the Middle-Eastern state sense).  If you're militantly non-religious, IMHO, it would seem to me that getting very exercised about your child's choice of mate based on ethnicity, just their being non-Jewish, comes down to mere snobbery.

But prom dates aren't prospective husbands or wives (I know one person who married his prom date) (she left him, took their daughter to Florida, and married a much richer guy) and, even if the strategy is to get your kid to marry Within the Faith, it's probably a bad strategy to strictly forbid inter-religious dating.

My wife has a Jewish childhood friend, whose husband is pretty rabid, to the point that their college-age daughter's long-time boyfriend -- as it happens, his little sister is a schoolmate of my 12-year-old -- is forbidden entry to the parents' home, because he's non-Jewish.  His parents are terrific, upstanding Central American immigrants.  The Jewish parents -- it's the husband, actually, but the wife acquiesces in the ban -- succeed in humiliating and alienating their daughter, but she's been sleeping with this nice Latino guy since she was 17, and shows no inclination to cease doing so.

I must remark there would be hell to pay if a Catholic high school said that a pupil who brings a Jew to the prom would be turned away at the door.  Even in a religious school, is it the role of the school to enforce such a ban?  Should it not be the role of the parents, if they are so inclined?

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  •  for some reason (none / 0)

    i have an urge to tell jewish princess jokes. shame on me.

    Anyone who advocates, supports, defends, rationalizes, or excuses torture has pus for brains and a case of scurvy for a conscience. - James Wolcott

    by rasbobbo on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 10:28:19 PM PDT

  •  equivalent situation (none / 0)

    would be if the catholic high school barred all non-catholics from the prom.

    Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

    by gracchus on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 10:49:23 PM PDT

  •  i'm speechless (none / 0)

    I was raised Jewish.  Reconstructionist - which is kind of the hippy sect of Judaism.  I made my peace and said bye bye after a trip to Israel when I was 18.  Before that, I was content with my identity as a Jew - despite my lack of a belief in a god - because I felt my morals, cultural affiliation, and the love for Israel I hoped to acquire through a trip there or perhaps moving there trumped my atheism.  Then I went to Israel, and that's another story.

    Anyhow, in HS I was in a Jewish youth group called BBYO.  We were not affiliated with one sect or another.  Another youth group (USY), affiliated with the Conservative movement, put a rule into place that their regional board members must pledge to only date Jews.

    After hearing about this, I proposed an activity for a convention.  A select few of us were in on the conspiracy.  Group leaders announced to small discussion groups that BBYO was going to put this rule into place too.  Of course that was a lie, but it got people's attention.  For half an hour or so, a few hundred Jewish teens had a serious (sometimes heated) debate about the merits of such a rule.  Every single person in my group opposed the rule.  We were a mix of everything from modern orthodox to reformed Jews, and we were all against it.  At the end, the group leaders 'fessed up that no such rule was proposed.

    I don't know who the heck implemented a Jews-only Prom but I think that's crap.  A Jews-only Jewish youth group, fine.  Prom?  That's a social event.  And how can you prove someone is not a Jew?  You can take off your cross necklace and your WWJD bracelet and attend anyway.

    That's my two cents.  Not all Jews are like that.

    •  "Can you prove someone is not a Jew?" (none / 0)

      You sure you want me to answer that here?

      Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
      Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

      by ben masel on Wed Jun 29, 2005 at 11:25:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How can you prove someone is not a Jew? (none / 0)

      I'm not Jewish, and I can answer this. (and no, it has nothing to do with taking your pants off to prove you're circumcized)...

      It's actually quite easy. Ask the attendee to answer any number of fairly simple questions about the faith:

      I could keep going, but you get the point. How many 17-year-old Christian or Muslim (or Wiccan for that matter) kids know the answers to any of these questions?

      (and for a good laugh, go visit Jewlicious.com

      NFTT Progressively supporting the troops

      by Timroff on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 12:10:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think that works (none / 0)

        Because I could answer all the questions and lots more, and laugh at all right the jokes, just as a result of being a kid who read a lot and had several Jewish friends.  Several of my Jewish acquaintances, though, couldn't, because they were raised completely agnostic.  I'm assuming they'd still be Jews for the purpose of the ban.

        "As scientific knowledge advances, it does not mean that religious knowledge retreats." - horse69 on the bnet recon C&C board

        by lonespark on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 05:50:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  this daughter of Zion says (none / 1)

    that school's policy is bullshit. Not to mention counter-productive. In a free society there will be interfaith dating, which will lead to interfaith marriage.

    Conservative Judaism is declining nationally and in most American cities, while Reform Judaism is thriving. There are many causes of this, but one is that Conservative Judaism as an institution (and I'm not talking about individuals raised Conservative, many of whom disagree with official policy) is incredibly hostile to interfaith spouses of Jews, even where there is a commitment to raise children as Jews.

    John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."

    by desmoinesdem on Thu Jun 30, 2005 at 02:43:01 AM PDT

  •  What's the big deal? (4.00 / 2)

    No one compels families to send their children to a Solomon Schechter Day School.

    Solomon Schechter Day Schools are, as noted in the Diary, affiliated with a religious movement that frowns upon intermarriage. (Of course, if one prospective spouse converts, then it's no longer an intermarriage.)

    Whether or not choosing a Prom date has a strong or weak relationship to whom one marries, it's fair to say that there's enough of a relationship between dating and marriage for such a religious movement to want not to appear to approve inter-dating.

    The effectiveness of such a policy is, of course, another matter.

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