Daily Kos

Wilson to read letter from Bush 41 on Today show

by freespeech

Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:25:33 PM PDT

The Ambassador Strikes Back, Answers to the Right Wing Spin Machine

Ambassador Joseph Wilson fired back today at the Rightwing Spin Machine...

In a phone discussion early this afternoon, Wilson told The BRAD BLOG in no uncertain terms that "the President should fire Rove."...

As well, he told The BRAD BLOG that he planned to read a letter on air which he received from Bush's father, President George H.W. Bush shortly after an article of his was printed in the San Jose Weekly News, on October 13, 2002, in which Wilson related his concerns about the pitfalls of the approach to Iraq being taken at the time by both the U.N. and the U.S.

In reply to that article, Wilson said that the former President wrote that he had "read your article and I agree with a lot of it."

Additionally, Wilson explained, Bush 41's own National Security Advisor, Brent Scowcroft had contacted him to ask whether he "could walk on over to the White House with the letter" at the time. Which apparently he did.

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 173 comments

  •  Holy shit (4.00 / 6)

    Really?

    That's something.

    Recommended.

    Everybody dies alone.

    by Armando on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:23:53 PM PDT

    •  I'm not especially comfortable with this. (none / 1)

      If the letter relates only the Iraq war buildup I think it's a distraction from the important issues:

      • When did the President learn that his political operative leaked Mrs. Wilson's name?

      • What role, if any, did the President have in covering up this information?

      • Were any of the reporters the White House leaked to part of the Adminisrations "pay for coverage" scandal?

      If the letter is not germane to the issues at hand, I'm not sure that reading a private correspondence in public will increase sympathy in the public mind for Wilson.  And it may very well antagonize Poppy Bush, who may still have an important role to play in this scandal.

      John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

      by LarryInNYC on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:04:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe he should tie in what happened to him (none / 0)

        and his wife with the Downing Street memo, the administration was fixing facts and intelligence and Wilson wasn't reciting the lines from their script.

        Internet, n., A series of tubes invented by Al Gore; not a truck. "I mailed an Internet to my friend."

        by Viktor on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:08:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It may antagonize Poppa Bush... (none / 0)

        but he'll stand behind what he said to Wilson.

        If you don't have an earth-shaking idea, get one, you'll love building a better world.

        by hestal on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:24:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would not (none / 0)

          be so certain of this.

          These people, as you know, are slithery as hell.

          Poppa would likely find a way, with advisory help, to back his kid without directly contradicting himself.

          "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

          by Karmafish on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:58:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not so sure. (none / 0)

            Poppy has been pretty vocal about how he didn't agree with his son's Iraq adventure. After all, the reason he stopped before hitting Baghdad in Gulf I was because he didn't have an exit plan, and you just don't go in without an exit plan.

            His son? Not quite as smart. And 41 has said as much - softly, but he's said it.

            Fool me once, I'll punch you in the fucking head.

            by HollywoodOz on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:08:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And if Brent Scowcroft (none / 0)

              asked permission to walk the letter over to the White House, I suspect that there's a lot of behind-the-scenes maneuvering going on in which Poppy and friends are attempting to rein in junior. But, if so, they're going to have to try harder.

              The degree to which you resist injustice is the degree to which you are free. -- Utah Phillips

              by Mnemosyne on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:33:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  all fathers will back their sons (none / 1)

          but only a few of them will do so when it would do harm to others around them.

          I do not think that Poppy will be that unhappy about it.  Why?

          Why else would he have written the letter?  Better to hold your tongue then give ammunition to your sons enemy.  I do believe that Poppy puts the country ahead of familial loyalty and as a former head of the CIA he knows damn well what was done and its' implications to the nations security.

          Yes, all fathers back their sons; but only a fool backs them in treason or abetting treason.

          by skippythebox on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:08:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Fathers (none / 0)

            NO decent father will directly back his country over his son. We might withhold information to keep from directly supporting him, but actually putting the country above a son would be extraordinary. I agree that caution in publicizing a Bush Sr letter is warranted. I also believe that in the Bush family, family loyalty is paramount to anything else. Just revisit Bush Sr's smarmy comments regarding Kerry after the swift boat weasel attacks for Bush Sr's true loyalty.

            by nwskinner on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:26:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What about Benjamin Franklin??** (4.00 / 9)

              His son was a Loyalist governor.

              "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."

              by Viceroy on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:44:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  then my father (none / 0)

              and myself and his fathers before them by your definition would not be decent fathers.

              Nothing comes before country, nothing.

              Without the country and the protections it provides us all my family is in greater danger.

              so in that equation country comes before family.

              But it will hurt.

              by skippythebox on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:46:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Completely disagree with you. (4.00 / 3)

              After raising 5 children successfully, I feel I have a little bit of experience to go on here.

              It is absolutely a parent's priority to tell their children when they are wrong.  Absolutely.

              If you are not prepared to put principle above all else, please do not have children.  Wrong is wrong, all the time, no matter who is doing it.  

              I better stop, I'm getting more worked up by the minute.  In my opinion, this is part of what is wrong with this country - parents protecting the feelings of their children, rather than TEACHING them right from wrong, which includes pointing out errors in judgement.

              "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4130+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

              by Miss Blue on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:58:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I couldn't agree with you more!!! (4.00 / 3)

                I had to kick my oldest son out of the house when he was 17 because he chose to abuse alcohol & drugs.  The parents of my son's friends were shocked that I had such severe consequences, they preferred to be their child's "buddy" or "friend"  Now 12 years later, my kid is sober and he and I have a wonderful, close relationship while several of the parents who were outraged by strict standards and rules, have raised children who are spoiled, immature and have no clear sense of right and wrong.  In fact some of these parents not only condoned their child's use of drugs & alcohol many of them actually allowed it to go on under their own roof, leaving the child emotionally abandoned!

                Kids have enough friends, what they need in order to grow up into honest and happy adults is clear and consistent  rules that in the end make them feel secure and loved.  

                Confucius say: Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.

                by bluecayuga on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 08:33:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  YEAH!!! (none / 1)

                  Amen and Hallelujah!   And theyu keep saying that the Rethugs are the "Party of Moral and Values," But I gotta tell you that this flaming liberal won't let his kids get away with any nonsense.  My parents didn't let me, and dammit they were moderate to liberal too!

                  "America did not invent human rights. In a very real sense, it is the other way around. Human rights invented America." -Jimmy Carter

                  by Bulldawg on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 09:12:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  CLEAR AND CONSISTANT RULES! (none / 1)

                  This says it all!  No shades of grey, no wishy-washy proclamations, crystal clear -these are the rules, this is the punishment if you break them - PERIOD.

                  I don't mean to lesson the importance of my children, but I was a horse trainer before I had them, so when they came along, I raised them the same way I raised my horses.  Little children don't have any more reasoning/perception/thinking abilities than animals do.  If the concepts of clear and concise are used right from birth, they do not often need re-enforcing as the child grows up.  

                  Let's face it - by the time our children are able to reason, plan, think on their own, our jobs are done.  We can't follow them 24/7.  They have either absorbed what we taught them in infancy/childhood, or they haven't.  Of course they will make mistakes, errors in judgement, going along with peer pressure.  But if we have done our job in the beginning, and continue to teach by example, the vast majority of kids will come back to their roots, and what they were taught.

                  "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine 4130+ dead Americans. Bring them home.

                  by Miss Blue on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 10:26:17 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I'd like to give you 3 '4's for that ... (none / 0)

                I have a daughter who is 9 and who has many friends, some of whom have parents with the "protect the feelings of your child at all costs" mentality. Well I'm telling you, those kids have no boundaries, have real problems in school, and have poor impulse control.

                <sigh> One of those little darlings is coming here this PM since her mom's away at an ashram and her dad works a lot of hours. Amazingly she behaves well with me ... as long as her mother is not around.

                John McCain is so (Ned) Divine!!

                by Glinda on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 10:36:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  But remember (4.00 / 3)

            Bush 41 was career Intelligence.

            BushCo 43 has been systematically castrating many of those who were around and blood loyal to Bush 41.

            Bush 43 has also let slip a lot of arrogant remarks about how his father let his "political capitol" go and Baby Bush wouldn't make those mistakes.

            I expect at the worst Bush 41 will be vague or silent in response.  Again, unlike shrub, he was a career politician.  He knew how to keep a low profile and kiss up just enough to both sides to keep getting by.

            "There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS." - Gandhi

            by hopesprings on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 03:44:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  He's trying to disallow (4.00 / 4)

        the attacks on him as being a "Kerry supporter" (though he was).

        A friendly letter from the President's president Daddy kinda puts paid to the notion that Wilson is some kinda "partisan."

        I think Joe likely has a number of tricks up his sleeve that he's been waiting for the right time to pull out, letting his enemies fall all over themselves in apoplectic fits of shrieking confusion. They f**cked with the wrong guy, DailyHowler be damned.

        "It burns! It burns!"

        Intelligent Designer Laments Lapse in Intelligence

        by mrblifil on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:58:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Wilson is bright enough to figure out the best way (4.00 / 2)

        to handle this.  IMHO he has been pretty direct and honest to date about the thing.  I think he compares extremely well to GWB and his criminal cronies.

        The soul is not the ego in drag. Ken Wilber

        by macmcd on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:18:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  do you think this approach works? (none / 1)

          a way to speak to mainstream Americans -- without ever saying the nasty words like "bush and Rove = Bad; liars" ... This just takes Poppy's message to the CIA in 1999 and presents it visually -- that's it. No editorial comment at all. links to the official CIA site, and Poppy's speech dedicating the new CIA bldg named for him.

          This is just a first pass effort -- so it's a big image map --- it was just an idea to start speaking to mainstream Americans -- who reflexively recoil at the first mention of liberal attacks on Bush/his admin.  this takes the language of framing to heart...

          http://www.AmericaStandsTogether.com

          .
          .
          .

          rh+

          -----
          _The Flow of FISA: video clips | GroundZero

          by rhfactor on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 09:14:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Its a mind screw (to use a more polite term) (none / 1)

        He is making public that while Bush jr was planning and trying to justify his war, Bush sr was writing people and disapproving of his son's path.  Wilson is saying that your daddy thought I was smarter than you junior.

        It got under junior's skin enough at the time that he had to read it for himself.  I think Wilson knows exactly what he is doing . . . pushing juniors buttons hard!

        Still Hoping

        by Hoping on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:01:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It could help (4.00 / 2)

        Before this, no one really knew who Joe Wilson was.  I think he's trying to show that he's not some far-left, liberal asshat (pardon my Freedom).  
        Wilson had a long and illustrious career under Replublican administrations.  Elder Bush commended him for his actions during Iraq War 1.  
        By getting his history out there, Wilson is trying to stop all this character assassination spin cold.  It's a good move for him, but will only work if the media keep up the offensive.

        "Soon the time will come when everybody's somebody, so nobody is anybody" - Catherine Wheel

        by grafton on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 06:05:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree completely! (none / 0)

          The only reason this, of all the dishonest maneuvering this administration has done, is getting so much attention is because their buddy from the New York Times is sitting in jail.  I hope they keep her there so the press will stay with this story.

          Confucius say: Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.

          by bluecayuga on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 08:42:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're right (none / 0)

            The media, no matter now dull they get, will always defend their own.  This story will keep its legs as long as Miller is in jail.
            On a side note; I'd LOVE to be a fly on Karl's wall now.  The 'greatest' political stratigist living today in the fight of/for his life.  Maybe they'll steal the idea for The West Wing's next season.

            "Soon the time will come when everybody's somebody, so nobody is anybody" - Catherine Wheel

            by grafton on Fri Jul 15, 2005 at 04:39:01 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmm (none / 0)

        Yeah, this story should not be about Amb. Wilson.  That's just what the GOP is trying to do.

        However, I certainly can't fault the guy for defending himself against these smears.

        "We've done the impossible and that makes us mighty."

        by Dissento on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 08:23:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  My Guess Is (4.00 / 2)

        He's already gotten 41's permission.

        Don't forget that Wilson handled the very delicate matter of dealing with Saddam after the Kuwait invasion, when Saddam took all those Western hostages.  41 praised him effusively on that occasion, may even have given him a medal, can't recall (will look for some links about this).  Anyway, 41's very high opinion of Wilson is already a matter of public record.

        "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

        "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

        by JJB on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 09:43:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here's One Link About It (4.00 / 2)

          As acting ambassador to Iraq in the run-up to the first Gulf War, [Wilson] was the last US diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein, in 1991.

          He very publicly defied the Iraqi strongman by giving refuge to more than 100 US citizens at the embassy and in the homes of US diplomats - at a time when Saddam Hussein was threatening to execute anyone who harboured foreigners.

          He then addressed journalists wearing a hangman's noose instead of a necktie.

          He later told the Washington Post newspaper that the message to Saddam Hussein was: "If you want to execute me, I'll bring my own [expletive] rope."

          "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

          "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

          by JJB on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 09:46:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And Another (4.00 / 2)

            "It is relatively easy to speak out from the safety and comfort of Washington; what you are doing day in and day out under the most trying conditions is truly inspiring. Keep fighting the good fight; you and your stalwart colleagues are always in our thoughts and prayers."  --President George H.W. Bush, from a November 29, 1990, telegram to Acting Ambassador Joseph Wilson in Baghdad

            That link even includes an encomium attributed to Robert Novak and Rowland Evans that ends thusly:  "He [Wilson] shows the stuff of heroism."

            "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

            "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

            by JJB on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 09:52:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I Think That's Probably Enough (4.00 / 2)

              Here is a link to the Vanity Fair profile of Wilson and Plame that ran back in early 2004, if anyone's interested.

              Wilson spent most of his adult life in government service, he knows the proper etiquette for this situation.  If he is making this public without having first contacted 41, it's an extraorindary gaffe of the kind that people who rise to the level he did don't commit.

              "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

              "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

              by JJB on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 10:06:59 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  But wait ... (none / 0)

      Isn't this getting us off track of "Bush lied?"

      Now I'm confused. I was just starting the buy the argument in your diary.

      by SusanG on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:16:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  SusanG. (none / 1)

        Terrence Smith brought up Gannon/Guckert in his interview on the NewHour on PBS tonight with Scott McLellan.  Interesting interchange.  Sorry for interrupting here, thought you'd like to see it for yucks, if nothing else.  My linking ability is bad.  I'll go away now....

        In order to hide their embezzlement behind a posse of demented hicks, Republicans' slogans must be short and superstitious. Grand Moff Texan

        by station wagon on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:31:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Offense (none / 1)

        See, I thought what Armando was saying was that we keep making accusations and stop debating the side issues that the Republicans bring up.

        I don't think Armando wanted us to stick to solely "Bush lied" as an accusation, I think he wanted us to be on the offensive and stop trying to argue with Republicans about whether or not Wilson was 100% correct according to a Republican led Senate committee's report.

        So, yet another accusation wouldn't be a hindrance to that, it'd be a help.

        We need the alleyways and sidetracks to be ours so that when we want to we can find and get back on the main road and push the actual story again instead of playing defense and getting lost in the alleyways and sidetracks the GOP installs.

        it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses

        by Addison on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:50:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  thank you for this post (none / 1)

          That is also my understanding of the point. That we shouldn't be arguing the merits of each Republican talking point. that the response each time it appears they are getting off track of our talking point is to return it in quick turn around prhase back to the basic meme that the republican's are lying about X. The Republicans can not be trusted on Y.

          I am going to offend a few people here. But, I have no idea why they can't get this. As I mention to someone else what exactly was the context of Armando's diary? Was he talking about Republicans lying about their age? Or their weight? or was he asking us to focus on a meme that says the Republicasn are lying about Plamegate, and that Rove should be fired because he can't be trusted. Rather than a meme that goes into detail about the merits of each point of what did or didn not happen with Wilson and the yellow cake stuff. How does goign into that minute help the bigger arguement toward the American people? Not just for our own masterbation about how smart we are on the  topics- but is the basic message, the REpublicans can not be trusted, being lost? If it is, and if it is confusing, then it needs to be cut out. Simple as that.

          by bruh1 on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:37:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And thanks for *your* comment ... (none / 0)

            I couldn't for the life of me figure out what SusanG's comment was about. I read neither her nor Armando's diaries, so your summary was great. It saved me the time and succinctly outlined the argument.

            Maybe someone should do a daily, continually-updated, just to sum up the active controversies that Armando is involved in, with a play-by-play summary of each faction's position. It would save a whole hell of a lot of time for the rest of us, but we'd still get to follow the debate minus the insults, name-calling, and attitude on both sides.

            John McCain is so (Ned) Divine!!

            by Glinda on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:35:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Let me clarify ... (none / 1)

              There was no faction or name-calling or arguing. My take on the subject is this:

              Armando's diary seemed to me to be in response to the numerous diaries (mine included) that were attempting to refute the lies about Wilson point by point. His stand -- if I'm interpreting it correctly -- is that we are getting "off message" by dealing with the minutae of Wilson as a personality, his credibility and the details of his trip to Niger. Armando was saying that we are missing the big point -- Bush lied about firing whoever was responsible for the leak.

              Armando was saying (in my view), don't get distracted, keep it simple: Bush lied about firing Rove. Repeat over and over, push it home ... Bush lied.

              And after consideration, I was thinking he was right.

              So my confusion is this diary came from Armando's initial response above about how powerful the Bush I letter could prove to be. It was genuine confusion, not snark. Because as I was  coming to agree with his stance on sticking to the "Bush lied" message, I was seeing this letter event as taking a step backward into the territory of justifying Wilson's credibility.

              So there was no fight or faction or snark or name-calling or argument. Just me not understanding (and it's probably me, I admit), how this enthusiasm over the airing of the letter fit in with Armando's overall excellent game plan.

              by SusanG on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 08:09:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It wasn't at all personal ... (none / 0)

                but it seems like every diary I'm reading these days is haunted by the ghost of some other controversy that Armando is at least peripherally involved in.

                This diary was a mild example of that by comparison. But I've learned not to start searching for the cause of spilled-over controversies since it is a huge time-killer.

                I still stand by the position that someone should maintain the Cliffs notes for the current running controversies just so the rest of us aren't at sea.

                I love your stuff. Your initial comment was just a baffling non sequiteur. You are one of the civilized debaters with Armando, and I not only respect that but I thank you sincerely for it.

                John McCain is so (Ned) Divine!!

                by Glinda on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 10:06:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah it really wasn't a debate (none / 0)

                  between the two of them- sorry that i made it sound like that.

                  by bruh1 on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:00:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm aware of that ... (none / 0)

                    But there's still a matter of "diary etiquette". I might opine that two people coming into someone else's diary and, without giving the other readers a context for their discussion, continuing the discussion and taking up valuable diary space and eyeball time, leaving others with a big "Say Whaaa?", is ... well ... a tad rude.

                    Think of it as an unwritten Seinfeld episode: say Jerry gives a party and Elaine shows up with a friend of hers and they walk in the door having a rather loud discussion/argument that no one else at the party can follow but drowns out all conversation. What happens, of course, is the party clears out leaving Jerry, Elaine and her friend. And Jerry can't figure out how to get rid of Elaine and her friend who've settled in for the evening.

                    Frankly what happened here was mild. And now I am being the rude one. But I had ust got out of another diary before coming to this one where, like flies to flypaper, a controversy that involved Armando wandered into the other diary en masse and continued with only a whisper of relevance to the subject at hand.

                    Believe me, I do not want to come off sounding like the diary police. They are annoying and ... often rude. I'd rather be the diary "Emily Post" ... which, frankly, I've been thinking of for some time under the guise of a different user name.

                    John McCain is so (Ned) Divine!!

                    by Glinda on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 11:48:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No its okay (none / 0)

                      I actually agree with you. A lot of people talk conversation from one diary and place it into another. I have done it on occasion, but that's only directly to the person that I am talking to rathere than to third party, and if I suspect it shows a pattern of behavior

                      by bruh1 on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 03:08:26 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  i am of mixed view (none / 0)

                about the letter. anytime we veer of in the Wilson show, then it's not in our favor. I just saw the coversation today oon MSNBC with Ron Reagain. They made Wilson out to be a liar- which is entirely the besides the point. That's the Republican game. Humanize it be finding a target on the Democratic side to deflect from their own actions. I just wish we didn't always play in the game. Sometimes, you have to tell people thanks Mr Wilson, we are sorry for your pain, but this is about Karl Rove, and not you.

                by bruh1 on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:03:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Which by the way is my issue (none / 1)

          w/ Susan G's diary on the subject. I don't know who it is written for? if it is solely for the choir then its fine- but if you are trying to present new information to the American people, then the whole diary is besides the point. Even if Wilson was 100 percent wrong, that doesn't justify breaking the law or even the ethical implications of what Rove did. That's all that needs to be said to rebut the Rpeublicans and move on to the real issue.

          I've been going to other blogs, some conservatives, and talking to more conservative friends, where these sorts of things lose them is that it allows them to fall back on their old views of Democrats because you aren't providing them with a clear, unadulterated, and unconfused answer. For example, when I hear a conservative friend complain about something that is occuring with the national govt, I ask them how can they blame it on Democrats, aren't the REpublicans in charge? They try to change the subject, but then I repeat, yeah, but the Republicans are in charge. It is a highly effective method but it requires not trying to be the smartest kid in the room, and instead, trying to be the one trying to win.

          by bruh1 on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:43:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No (none / 1)

        Some of you remind me of good chess players who play a good opening and middle game but do not have the guts to start sacrificing men to win the game and carry out your plan. Not Wilson. The middle game is over and Wilson knows it. Pieces are ready to start coming off the chess board. Wilson will fuck with Bush and his spin machine until their in knots. Yes Wilson will push the buttons and push them hard.
        Remember this is the man who told Saddam he would bring his own fucking rope if your going to hang me.

        by Lawdog on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 06:21:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I was thinking about 41 and his concerns (none / 0)

      about 43. Of course he would never turn on his son, but I believe George HW is perfectly capable of turning on Rove. After all, he fired him once, and probably has never much liked the guy.
      He's not Poppy's kind of person, if you know what I mean. Plus, he's the help, and when the help becomes an embarrassment...
      Perhaps more important, as a father myself, I can see him, wrongly, but understandably, blaming his son's bad decisions on this bad influence; Karl Rove.
      This is plausible to me, and would be very helpful in that he (Poppy) may decide to do what he can to help Rove out the door. (The servant's entrance, of course.) And he, and his network, can do plenty.
      His friendship with Clinton is what started me thinking about all this....

      There must be some way, somehow, to maintain an infinite rate of increase in our consumption of a finite resource...

      by AWhitneyBrown on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 02:10:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  aoeu (none / 0)

    GMA must be pissed.

    "Presumptuous" is the new "uppity"

    by TealVeal on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:25:58 PM PDT

  •  If this is true, it will be AMAZING! (4.00 / 9)

    I can't believe it, but for the first time in about 10 or 15 years, it feels like I need to watch Katie & Matt tomorrow morning!

    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." --Thomas Jefferson

    by frisco on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:26:12 PM PDT

    •  Joseph Wilson (3.87 / 8)

      seems to be as determined as we are to hold these scum accountable and see some justice done and truth revealed.  

      It's incredibly refreshing, reassuring, and inspiring.  A big change from most of the Dems in Congress.  

      Kind of energizes - and I've felt drained by the vampires for quite a while now.

      Wish we could contact him with gratitude and encouragement.

      by KibbutzAmiad on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:29:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  they picked on the wrong person... (3.94 / 19)

        and wait until the investigation is over.  If you think he's going ot stop, think again.

        A civil suit will follow and they will all be deposed....and then it will get very interesting.

        Jon Powers has a primary on Sept. 9. Help out now.

        by NYBri on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:38:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I told my employees today (4.00 / 9)

        to get ready to hear a lot about a guy named Joe Wilson.  

        This guys is smart and tough as nails, and THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES totally messed up his wife's career.  If ever an injustice was perpetrated in broad daylight, this was it.

        Maybe Scottie or Karl or GeeDubya don't feel that it is proper to comment during an ongoing invesigation, but JW is under no such constraints.  If he's the only interview worth doing, he'll get all the face time, and this guy has charisma, something seriously lacking on the Republican side.

        Joe Wilson will get to call George W. Bush out on national TV, and George will have to suffer in silence, because Joe doesn't need a writer, and, um, his cause is just.  That never hurts.  Look for Joe to up the ante and crank the screws by calling these guys liars and worse in front of god and everybody.  Sooner or later the White House has to respond, because nothing is going to shut Joe up.

        I'm looking for a statement along the lines of, "I am not a crook."

        I think Joe Wilson is about to become the most famous man in America, and I don't think it's a bad thing.  It's almost shocking that after a diet of shallow, self-serving, cowardly politicians, this guy is actually...capable.

        It don't mean a feng if it ain't got that shui.

        by Doc Bogus on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:30:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Great point (none / 1)

          I wonder how long the White House can stay silent when Wilson's on the attack? They're sure hoping the second smear will hold, but I don't think it will. If the media wants to make up for failing us during the lead up, my advice would be 'give Wilson the megaphone'.

          Hoping for Obama

          by KingJames on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:41:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This all sounds (none / 0)

          very nice (and the idea warms my cockles) but I'm not getting my hope up.

          "War does not determine who is right - only who is left." - Bertrand Russell

          by Karmafish on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:12:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  YIKES! (none / 0)

          nothing is going to shut Joe up.

          PLEASE don't say that too loud!

          A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -Edward R. Murrow

          by nutmeg on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:25:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Okay... (none / 0)

          But how does he avoid just looking crazy?

          I'm playing devil's advocate, because I know he's not crazy, I just know how they work. They'll call him a child molestor or something. Rush, Shammity, and O'Lielly will run with it. John Gibson will make jokes about child molesting. Etc.

          A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -Edward R. Murrow

          by nutmeg on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:27:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If JW was smearable... (4.00 / 2)

            ... he'd have already been smeared but good by now.  They've had 2 years to find and/or manufacture dirt on him.  

            He has to be squeaky clean.

            "Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove." P.G. Wodehouse

            by gsbadj on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 03:50:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  would you vote for him? (none / 0)

          Just curious?

          Joe seems to be almost everything a leader should be? He is almost the complete anti-thesis to bush... (Except he isn't dirt poor... BUT)

          Bi-partisan and all... There have been a lot of people backing him up along the way. (Heck, the CIA has a stake in this, and MANY anti-bush communities are backing him) But he has shown real leadership skills and diplomacy in all of this.

          I know I would have been raging if someone had threatened any member of my families life like the bushies did to his wife. He has remained methodical in his message and resiliant to all of their following attacks.

          Would any of you vote for Wilson? Even if he ran as an R? Would you consider it?

          Call me effin curious, eh?

          Drinking Liberally in New Milford

          by m16eib on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 11:09:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wilson in the Senate would even be better than (none / 0)

            Hillary. A constant thorn poking at the Repugs. And Senator Wilson out there eloquently speaking about the constant lies of the GW administration. Priceless!!!

            47 million Uninsured in the U.S. Why aren't more Americans outraged?

            by PAbluestater on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 10:17:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  From your keyboard to tomorrows news. (none / 0)

          I hope. Pray. Rubbing Buddah's belly with crossed fingers, legs, toes, eyes...
          I need this administration to go down in flames in order to believe in hope for my country's future.

          How much is enough, Gordon?

          by SecondComing on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 12:06:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  What network is that? (none / 0)

      I don't watch a lot of network TV but I'm most intersted. I'll go to work late. Sorry to be a nerd.  Do you mind letting me know what network/station I should look for?

      The age of journalism as the fourth estate has passed. We blog to survive.

      by enough on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:08:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just watched the first 30-min - no letter (none / 0)

      just a pissed-off Joe Wilson beginning his counter-attack, linking, <this is a paraphrase - it's still too early in the morning for me to guaranty the quotes are right> "all of this to a massive cover-up of the misinformation leading to the war in Iraq.  Now that is all unravelling and that is why the White House is stonewalling."

      "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." --Thomas Jefferson

      by frisco on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 04:29:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ugh (none / 0)

    I'm going to have to deal with Katie Couric until the Joe Wilson segment. Can't wait though, should be interesting.

    by Prison4Bushco on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:27:13 PM PDT

  •  Next, (none / 1)

    He ought to publicly offer to go on John Gibson's show.  

    Peters for Congress (MI-09)

    by GOTV on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:31:01 PM PDT

  •  YAY! (none / 1)

    Since the legal process grinds on, it probably was best Joe stay out of the line of fire, so to speak, but it will be really, really good to see him on the Today show. I'll actually watch it, for once.

    The media are doing an extremely poor job of keeping the discussion factual, and the R's are out of control.

    It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

    by TheOtherWashington on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:36:23 PM PDT

  •   I love this part: (3.92 / 14)

    "None of them responded saying you're a Democratic partisan hack and your views suck," said Wilson.

    Go Joe, GO!

    To write in plain vigorous language one has to think fearlessly, and if one thinks fearlessly one cannot be politically orthodox. George Orwell, 1946

    by deepintheheartoftx on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:42:53 PM PDT

    •  MSM (4.00 / 5)

      Its amazing - there was not one mention about Wilson's work in Bush 41's administration during this recent coverage. Wilson was probably in very good terms with Pappy and his people.

      Guns don't kill people, republicans do.

      by freespeech on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:56:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Speaking of unmentionable... (4.00 / 2)

        Did you know he was an assistant ambassador to Iraq in 1990/91?

        I trust Obama's judgment more than I trust my own. Why are YOU telling him what to do?

        by Leggy Starlitz on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:07:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  aoeu (4.00 / 5)

          He also meet Saddam and Saddam would shake hands with his hand down by his crotch to force the other person to look down and appear submissive for the camera.  Wilson refused to look down and carefully reached for Saddam's hands so as to avoid Saddam's jewels and create an international incident.

          "Presumptuous" is the new "uppity"

          by TealVeal on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:16:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  ha, interesting story (none / 0)

            reminded me of that story Bill Clinton told about Yitzak Rabin and Arafat meeting in Washington in 1993 I think. Clinton said one of them(I think Rabin) had a habit of giving a kiss on the cheek while shaking your hand. But there was no way he would kiss Arafat, and it would look odd that Rabin kissed Clinton and not Arafat. So when Clinton was going to shake Rabin's hand, he put his left hand on Rabin's shoulder kind of like a friendly gesture, but he was holding him back from kissing him. And it worked. So nobody got kissed that day. :).  

            by jj32 on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:25:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yep...and did you know... (3.94 / 19)

          ...he put a rope around his neck and challenged Saddam to hang him?  And that he was responsible for getting (I forget the exact number) more than a 100 people out of Iraq safely?  And that Bush I called him a hero?  The GOP'ers aren't mentioning any of that, are they?

          Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

          by BarbinMD on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:19:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  unlike Rove n/t (none / 1)

        by white blitz on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:18:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Like I said in another post (4.00 / 9)

    Bush will regret that he did not take care of the Rove mess before Ambassador Wilson got pissed off enough again and started to fire back.

    Wilson is one tough cookie with a lot of connections -- Bush better duck -- incoming!!

    "Proud to proclaim: I am a Bleeding Heart Liberal"

    by sara seattle on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:44:57 PM PDT

  •  Wilson is Tough (4.00 / 7)

    He is really tough. He hits hard and accurate. I think Rove has met his match.

    by jbane on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:54:28 PM PDT

  •  How much you wanna bet (4.00 / 5)

    How much you wanna bet that the GOP response is: "How indecent of Joe Wilson to publicly disclose the contents of a private letter from a former president!!! This is dirty politics!"

    by valabor on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:55:47 PM PDT

    •  yes but (none / 1)

      They'll also certainly try to get Poppy to recant or "clarify." We'll see if he's willing to. I'll be the old man has enough of a hack left in him to do it.

      Wilson shouldn't hvae tipped his hand in advance.

      by desmoulins on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:03:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What they will say (none / 1)

      is that the White House is respecting the investigation by not commenting so the legal process can proceed and Joe Wilson is lying to the press and jeopardizing the investigation.

      Yeah, they're insane.

      by jbane on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:05:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Absolutely (none / 0)

      That's what I was thinking. But I'd be willing to bet that Wilson has off-the-record permission from poppy. Why? Well, it seems like the decent thing for Wilson to do. Also, I'm sure Wilson is well aware of the Bush Crime Family's way of protecting their own. We don't know what all is in the letter. It might not be too damning to W. It could be damning to Rove. Poppy does not like Rove. He fired Rove when he leaked information to Novack the last time.

      A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. -Edward R. Murrow

      by nutmeg on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:39:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Crips and the Bloods (none / 0)

        I propose a rumble (knife fight) between

        Crips: George W., Laura and Rove

        Bloods: George H.W., Bar and Joe Wilson

        Let's take odds in Vegas...

        My money will be on the Bloods, as they have Bar, she'll fight at LEAST as dirty as Rove... (Laura will be useless.)

        by Joon on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:36:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  So nice to see people with integrity in govt... (4.00 / 5)

    seems so rare these days....

    We need Special Prosecutors. NOW.

    by CalDoc on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 07:57:20 PM PDT

  •  Joseph Wilson 2008!! (4.00 / 6)

    Suggesting someone for our 2008 nominee seems to be becoming the "traditional" DailyKos way of bestowing praise.  :grin:  And so, I say, Joseph Wilson 2008!

    by Loquatrix on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:04:48 PM PDT

  •  Well Isn't This A Fine Kettle Of Fish? (4.00 / 6)

    So Joe Wilson is a man who can dash off a letter to the President's father, perhaps to Brent Scowcroft (although it's even better if George Sr. showed it to Brent), and to James Baker III?  

    And get not only replies but "can I carry this over to the White House"?

    Whoa.

    I'm starting to think about Greek tragedies here (while trying to avoid thinking about how ol' Bar fits in), or perhaps Shakespearean...

    Socialism is to capitalism as training a dog is to worshipping a wolf

    by Irfo on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:07:34 PM PDT

  •  freespeech - what does the last paragraph mean? (none / 0)

    Could you clarify? Do you mean he walked to the White House with Bush Sr.'s letter?

    Hoping for Obama

    by KingJames on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:33:52 PM PDT

  •  Incredible! (none / 0)

    Now, I hope there are guards posted outside of Rehnquist's hospital room tonight -- something happening to him would be the only thing (well, maybe not the only), that could get this sidetracked.  

    Sweet dreams tonight!  

    by MarCat on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:40:07 PM PDT

  •  nitpicking, but it's Brent, not Brett.....n/t (none / 0)


    Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley

    by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 08:53:58 PM PDT

  •  These idiots asked for this (4.00 / 19)

    When they started attacking him and his wife as partisan hacks in order to attempt to defend Karl Rove, they asked for this kind of retaliation, and should have known that Wilson had plenty of ammunition with which to counterattack.

    What I really love is the allegation that Wilson's wife suggested him for this trip as some sort of a "boondoggle."  In fact, I've seen and heard the specific term "boondoggle" used in several right-wing sources, including a local talk radio program.  To which my immediate thought was, "A boondoggle to NIGER?!?"  I mean, if this was a trip to Paris, or Rome, or Tahiti, it might be credible that his wife suggested him getting it as some sort of a boondoggle, but it's pretty hard to believe that if she suggested him doing it, that she thought she was doing him any great favors by doing so.

    The following is an excerpt from the State Department Consular Information sheet about Niger:

    "Health facilities are extremely limited in Niamey and urban centers, and completely inadequate outside the capital.  Although physicians are generally well trained, even the best hospitals in Niamey suffer from inadequate facilities, antiquated equipment and shortages of supplies (particularly medicine).  Emergency assistance is limited.  Travelers must carry their own properly labeled supply of prescription drugs and preventative medicines.

    "Malaria is prevalent in Niger.  Plasmodium falciparum malaria, the serious and sometimes fatal strain in Niger, is resistant to the anti-malarial drug chloroquine.  Because travelers to Niger are at high risk for contracting malaria, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) advises that travelers should take one of the following antimalarial drugs: mefloquine (Lariam -tm), doxycycline, or atovaquone/proguanil (Malarone -tm).  The CDC has determined that a traveler who is on an appropriate antimalarial drug has a greatly reduced chance of contracting the disease.  Other personal protective measures, such as the use of insect repellents, also help to reduce malaria risk.  Travelers who become ill with a fever or flu-like illness while traveling in a malaria-risk area and up to one year after returning home should seek prompt medical attention and tell the physician their travel history and what antimalarials they have been taking.  For additional information on malaria, protection from insect bites, and antimalarial drugs, please visit the CDC Travelers' Health web site at http://www.cdc.gov/travel/malinfo.htm.

    "Tap water is unsafe to drink throughout Niger and should be avoided.  Bottled water and beverages are safe, although visitors should be aware that many restaurants and hotels serve tap water.  Ice made from tap water is also unsafe to consume."

    And as if that weren't enough, there's the following:

    "Niger is the poorest country in the Sahel.  The public transportation system, urban and rural road conditions, and the availability of roadside assistance are all poor.  U.S. travelers should; therefore, exercise caution on Niger's paved and unpaved roadways, as traffic accidents are frequent.  The main causes of accidents are driver carelessness, excessive speeding, poorly maintained vehicles, and poor to non-existent road surfaces.  Other factors include the hazardous mix of bicycles, mopeds, unwary pedestrians, donkey carts, farm animals, and buses on roads that are generally unpaved and poorly lighted.  Overloaded tractor-trailers, "bush taxis," and disabled vehicles are additional dangers on rural roads, where speeds are generally higher.  Travel outside Niamey and other cities often requires four-wheel-drive vehicles, which creates an additional security risk since these vehicles -- especially Toyota Land Cruisers -- are high-theft items.  Driving at night is always hazardous and should be avoided if at all possible outside major cities.  Banditry is a continuing problem in northern and eastern Niger.  There have been reported carjackings and highway robberies in remote areas of the country."

    I guess it's understandable that they don't have a very big tourism industry.  If my wife suggested me for a "boondoggle" to Niger, I think I'd be seriously tempted to start looking for a good divorce lawyer.

    "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

    by leevank on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:07:36 PM PDT

    •  Now (none / 0)

      that puts Wilson's trip to Niger in a whole new light, doesn't it? The man is a freaking hero just for taking on that assignment, if not for anything else.

      Guns don't kill people, republicans do.

      by freespeech on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:11:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush taxis (4.00 / 3)

      are dangerous, I agree.

      by annalivia on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:23:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yup, call the divorce lawyer (none / 0)

      Someone who has worked in Niger said on another bb: "A terrible day in the US is better than the best day in Niger."

      Someone needs to dig up that joke email that melded yellowcake and those Niger-get-rich-quick scam emails.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 10:45:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I rode my motorcycle across Niger (4.00 / 3)

      in the mid 70's and believe me it's a real pukehole.

      When I crossed the "border" from Algeria, somewhere

      where there was a Niger customs official with a

      rubber entry stamp, he had deep tribal scars cut all

      over his face.  Scarification is common there, but

      I knew I was getting deep, when I handed my papers to

      that guy.  The boondoggle begins when you get to

      leave Niger.  I never saw the capital Niamey, but

      toured through Agadez and Zinder.  Give it a miss.

      I would love to meet Ambassador Wilson.

      "the most profligate and worst decision in the history of American foreign policy" Tom Ricks-MTP 12/10/06

      by Flann on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 05:36:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  enough Niger bashing already (4.00 / 2)

      Kind of joking above, but seriously,
      it is a beautiful country in many ways.  Gripped by poverty, poor education, and in some parts, banditry, yes, but some rich cultures as well as the closest thing West Africa has to a safari destination (Parque W South of Niamey).  Not that our friend Joe was going to be taking advantage of any of this.   The two "international class" hotels are still a bit dicey by western standards (mosquitoes, roaches are common in rooms), but hey you can usually get CNN international (as well as French infos).  And the view of the wild (as in undammed) Niger river from the Grand hotel terrace, w/ truban-clad men driving camels across the Kennedy bridge, is simply awesome.

      Those travel warnings always make places out to sound very sketchy.  

      by madbiker on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:30:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Bush Sr reads the San Jose weekly? (none / 0)

    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S Thompson

    by spot on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:10:16 PM PDT

  •  More evidence that Poppy was/is (4.00 / 4)

    twenty times the man his son is, and W. with his Oedipus complex always thought he was more "man" than his father.

    The guy turned 59 last week, he's almost 60 folks, and he's still the same boy he was Jr. High.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heave anymore."--Prine
    Blue House Diaries

    by Cathy on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:26:30 PM PDT

    •  U R so right! (none / 0)

      The guy is supposedly the "Leader of the Free World," but comes off IMO as still a frat boy-man, with the stupid Beavis/Butthead laugh--esp. at very inappropriate moments, and this nickname crap.  So undignified.  Turdblossom?  Pootypoot?  Asks a visiting dignitary if he can call him "a piece of work"?? (the guy was from Belgium or Netherlands, or the like.  Can't remember.)

      What a pair!  Between his goofiness and Big Dick Vader's morbid gravitas... AAAARRRRGH!  

      by Joon on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 07:25:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bush Sr... (none / 0)

      Bush Sr. was also Director of the CIA as well for a while. I wonder how much on a impact that has on the exposure of this case and his thoughts on the outing?

      The perfect plan, Is not the man Who tells you, You are wrong

      by dss on Thu Jul 14, 2005 at 09:15:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This could be another ratf**king op! (none / 0)

    by tyoma on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:32:51 PM PDT

  •  On a more serious note (none / 1)

    Does anyone else think Rove is just like Rasputin, only without all the crazy hair?

    by tyoma on Wed Jul 13, 2005 at 09:34:52 PM PDT

    •  Rasputin