Hey, Kos: More Site Design Complaints

I haven't made any re-design complaints because there wasn't much to complain about really. Sure there were bugs, but that's expected. In fact I even defended the re-design in several instances.

But it's been a while now, and I need to say something. Not only are some things still not fixed, but other things have broken.

Being in the business of Web design (functional not graphic) I'm not one to complain about re-designs because they encompass so much more than what simply presents itself onscreen.

That said, something really goofy broke in the last few days that's really bad form.

I use several different browsers. (Most heavily trafficked sites get hit by users employing nearly every browser available). Right now, I'm using Safari, and I usually do while reading this site.

In the list of diaries along the right, as I mouse over them (and additionally the number of comments attached to each diary) the comments highlight. And not just the one that I moused over, but all of them. It creates a long list of comments flashing. So I clicked.

Guess where it took me?

To the advertiser's page.

Why? It didn't do this last on Wednesday.

Now I can tell you from a professional perspective exactly what's wrong with this, besides the fact you probably didn't specify it to behave this way.

This action has absolutely no cognitive affordance. Clicking on it, one would at least expect to go to the diaries with the comments -- perhaps if only one 'comments' highlighted. But all of them? What does that mean? Where does it take me?

I tried in Firefox, and it didn't behave the same way. That was simply non-clickable text. I'll bet the difference between the two wasn't specified either.

And while I'm on the topic of things that are broken, what does this mean?

Seriously, when do you describe or explain something using that which you're trying to explain?

"Daddy, what's an elephant?"
"It's an elephant."

Hunh?

Whoever wrote the technical documentation and instructional copy was paid too much. Or perhaps not enough. Either way, it's poor usability and it seriously ranks as one of the worst offenses in Web design I've ever encountered.

While this is intended as constructive critiquing I am fully aware it probably comes across as really nit-picky. But I get like this when I spend two whole days travelling with far too much time spent waiting for delayed flights.

So, having tolerated all the critical diaries of your re-design (too orange, too much white space, and more that don't really make a difference) I can tell you that there are still things that need to be fixed. Like margins and disappearing text. Unfortunately I would guess that a lot of valuable feedback is scattered throughout the site because there was no point of focus for people to provide feedback. There was no method for people to provide explicit examples of bugs encountered in the system.

I sure wouldn't want to be the guy who has to sift through all those diaries trying to replicate and fix the bugs encountered.

•  Am I just being cranky?

  Because of two screwed up days of travel. Because I have no plans on a Saturday night?

  Either way, I stand by it all.

  :-D

  by PBnJ on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:03:57 PM PDT

  •  No I have the same problem

    It's making me crazy.

    by hyperbolic pants explosion on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:06:47 PM PDT

    •  HPE...

      I can't believe you like to the podheads in your sig... I can't believe there are still people in there... My diaphragm hurts just thinking about that catastrophe.. :)

      And, to the diarist, I got stuck in a whole zen loop wondering why the site felt the need to tell us that "bold = bold", since that much should be apparent!

      heh.

      by socratic on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:13:20 PM PDT

      •  I'm still trying to figure it out

        bold = bold

        What the hell does this mean????

        It's not an HTML tag. It doesn't do anything if I type bold = bold. Or bold = irritiated. Or irritated = bold.

        Why is it that I work in this business and I create this stuff and I have absolutely no idea what the hell bold = bold is supposed to mean or do? I have never seen this elsewhere and I have no clue how this is supposed to be helpful to someone using this site.

        I wish I could get paid for writing jibberish crap like that but I guess my typos will have to suffice.

        by PBnJ on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:26:18 PM PDT

        •  heh...

          well.. there's:

          <b>bold</b>=bold

          (which, for you nontechies out there, is harder to type than you'd think)

          There's also the asterisks thing...

          Maybe it's like "by the power of greyskull!!!!" or... or maybe it's trying to remind us to be bold.. kind of a positive-image version of "stupid is as stupid does."

          I don't know.  I just post here.. :)

          by socratic on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:32:52 PM PDT

          •  before they had the html worked out

            so it would show up as html code and not be interpreted by your browser, but after the redesign the instructions got screwed up.  Now I can't remember how to do a link, suppose if I worked on my web site a little it would sink in.  

            bold=bold
            
            (which, for you nontechies out there, is harder to type than you'd think)

            how do ya do that?

            I came in here to complain about this very thing, but the diarist beat me too it.

            by unterhausen on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:01:34 PM PDT

            •  heh.

              ampersand, followed by "lt", followed by semicolon (a "less than" symbol)

              Then a b.

              Then another ampersand, followed by "gt", finally another semicolon (a "greater than" symbol)

              That gets you the first "bold" tag.

              Then, type "bold"

              ampersand, followed by "lt", followed by semicolon

              Then a "/b".

              Then another ampersand, followed by "gt", finally another semicolon.

              That gets you the closing "bold" tag.

              Following that sequence will get you something like uninterpreted HTML.

              by socratic on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:05:03 PM PDT

            •  oh, and a link

              <a href="http://your.web.site/">Your text</a>

              Ignore the fact that the autoparser is going to turn that into a fake link.

              by socratic on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:07:10 PM PDT

      •  Keepin' the dream alive!

        I can't believe you like to the podheads in your sig... I can't believe there are still people in there... My diaphragm hurts just thinking about that catastrophe.. :)

        It's my goal to keep that diary alive forever.
        :-D

        Go!

        by hyperbolic pants explosion on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:59:08 PM PDT

  •  i'm not feeling cranky

    but I am seeing the same things you are. Plus, the time stamps on the individual comments are 5 hours off - what's up with that? I'm using Safari, but the time stamp thing is the same with Firefox.

    by indybend on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:08:59 PM PDT

    •  Yeah, there are tons of technical things

      That could be the reason for both of those issues.

      I would bet that the majority of the pre-existing problems are fairly well documented, but they reside somewhere in the midst of the hundreds of thousands of comments about color and layout.

      There was no common thread for everyone to provide feedback so the job of fixing these things becomes more difficult and takes more time.

      by PBnJ on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:17:22 PM PDT

    •  me too

      And I'm using two different versions of Internet Explorer on my laptop and my desktop.

      The absolutely most annoying bug, though, is the diaries that spread out too wide on the screen, so I have to scroll left to right to read each individual line. This has been happening for some unknown reason on about three or four diaries each day, but not on all of them.

      I also wonder about the HTML tags. When I want to post a link, I always used to use the instructions above the Comment box as a guide, as it never seemed to stick in my mind. Now I'm clueless as to how to make a link by following the instructions "linked text = Linked text."

      Hate to say it, but this overhaul seems to have done more harm than good. Don't see any improvements, only aggravation. Like the old saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

      by chantedor on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:17:35 PM PDT

      •  Exactly

        The posting guide above the reply boxes in the last design were helpful and whatever the hell these things are definitely are not helpful. They're distracting and confusing, and cause people to spend an greater amount of time actually posting a comment if they want to use any bold, italics, links, etc.

        by PBnJ on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:31:48 PM PDT

    •  How come a diary I entered Friday

      spilled over its last few sentences into the right column, the displaced text actually overlaying the "State of the Nation" graphic.  So in the main column the text ends rather abruptly. (In the edit-and-preview windows, everything looked fine.  No flags.)

      And then the 'Recommend button' was shoved way low.

      Is that why a diary talking about a possible "stealth" nominee Miguel Estrada having concealed legal leanings got 2 recommends only, and 1 comment only?

      by joan reports on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:24:51 PM PDT

      •  boy, that's a weird one

        Just looked at your diary, which is excellent by the way and deserved more attention, and besides part of the text appearing at the upper right overlaying part of the dkos graphics, the column with the recommend button on my screen was mixed with the ad column. Never saw that happen before.

        by chantedor on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 10:54:03 PM PDT

    •  I can help with the time stamp!

      Click on your page link in the upper right menu.

      Click on the My Profile tab.

      Under the tabs, there is a line of links.  Click on display preferences.

      Your time zone is the first setting you can change.  Change it to the time zone you're in.  If you choose daylight savings time, you'll have to change it back in October, when it changes back.

      Finally, click Save all changes.

      Your finished.

      by Maggie Mae on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:25:56 PM PDT

      •  Testing time stamp n/t

        by leckavrea on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:31:40 PM PDT

        •  Didn't work for me

          It's now just after midnight EST for me -- my comments (and everyone else's) are off by six hours.

          by leckavrea on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:34:57 PM PDT

          •  The Time Stamp

            Problem seemed to start for me about three days ago.

            Didn't see any problems with time before that.

            by ZappoDave on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:19:48 PM PDT

            •  Same here

              That random (usually 5-6 hrs earlier than actual time when it occurs) time stamp problem is very strange.

              I noticed it to begin ~3 days ago also.

               

              by shumard on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 07:25:01 AM PDT

      •  already did that - didn't work n/t

        by indybend on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 01:08:09 AM PDT

  •  Not cranky

    I just noticed the new "html" help part and thought, that's weird.  I know html, but what do you do in this case?  Just think, "bold" or do you type it then the equal sign.  I'm confused.  I'm also over the links and images running over the "recommend" button and rest of the page.  That's something that should have been fixed in teh first place.  

    The one thing I am thrilled about is the dKos HTML available when you right click in the text box. That is so cool and saves me so much time from doing my own coding or using keyboard shortcuts.  I also like how when you go over a link it turns black instead of a barely lighter shade of orange.

    by fabooj on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:36:49 PM PDT

    •  Hmmm...

      Don't know about the dKos HTML. Mac doesn't do right-click/left-click and no other controls enable anything like that, so he's just excluded 5 percent of his audience from using that functionality.

      The orange-to-black is mostly an aesthetic thing, but while it may be cool, it actually breaks conventions that have been in place for more than a decade.

      I see it all the time: comnpanies designing sites do things because they can rather than focusing on things should be done. The former ultimately starts goofing things up and the latter is a result of the former.

      Geez, now my attitude is just getting worse.  ;-/

      by PBnJ on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:46:52 PM PDT

      •  I'm sorry

        That you use a Mac.  HAHAHAHA!  Kidding (not really).  I thought that with Mac's you had to Ctrl+click (or Alt) to do the "right click" thing.  It's a pretty cool feature, I must say.  

        I do know what you mean about the orange/black thing, but that industry standard seems to be changing back to the way it was 13, 14 years ago when a link would blue, then change to red.  I've noticed a lot of our clients websites have switched their hyperlinks to vastly different colors over the last few years.  

        Buck up!  It could be worse.  There could have been a dKos flag trail added to the cursor.  

        by fabooj on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:54:04 PM PDT

      •  Right-click on Mac

        Just hit the "Control" button and click the mouse simultaneously, your right-click menu should pop right up for you.

        by Kimberley on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 12:16:54 AM PDT

    •  All I get when I right click

      inna text box is a standard menubox that allows me to copy/paste/etc.

      Is that because I haven't been living right?

      by unterhausen on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:11:11 PM PDT

      •  Hmmmm

        I'm using Firefox, but I just opened up IE and it doesn't show up there.  I guess it's a FF feature.  I don't know how/when it showed it, I just noticed it in the past week.  This is what it looks like:

        

        by fabooj on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:30:40 PM PDT

    •  It's a Firefox plugin

      you can all download it here.

      by Swoof on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 09:06:34 PM PDT

  •  The elephant analogy made me chuckle

    Actually, it made me snort, and I woke my nephew up.  But that was pretty funny, and apt.  I am an HTML loser, and I am afraid to get fancy with my diaries or responses because I don't learn that way.  Quick SAT question: an orangutang is to an orangutang as a babel fish is to __?

    by Dave Brown on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 06:09:28 PM PDT

    •  Glad you liked

      And would the the answer be alphabet soup?  Haha.

      by PBnJ on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:11:36 AM PDT

  •  Safari here, too

    I, of course, have been hijacked repeatedly to the advertisers' sites, which doesn't make me any happier about having the top dozen or two dozen or three dozen comments on every diary rendered unreadable because the "center stage" ads run on top of them.  

    Race ya to the Frog Pond!

    by KateCrashes on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 03:00:33 AM PDT

•  I've had only minor

  problems until today. Something happend with this diary and it started loading with a double row of comments making it impossible to follow the dialogue.  It happens with both Firefox and IE.

  by acuppajo on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:24:31 PM PDT

  •  Noticed that too.

    Also have noticed that on some occassions the ads seem to run over the comments, making the comments very difficult to follow.  

    by Street Kid on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:02:27 PM PDT

  •  strange how

    some of these problems only occur in individual diaries. Why would this be? Wouldn't the programming cause things to be the same for every diary?

    by chantedor on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 10:59:32 PM PDT

•  Still: So Damn Orange. eom

  by cosette on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:29:31 PM PDT

  •  OK, I give

    I was attempting to make a distiction between what's broken functionally and what's aesthetic but I'll comment on the orange.

    Orange is actually not a bad choice. It's a color that the fewest people will be color blind to and humans associate a healthful, invigorating mood with orange.

    That said, the shade of orange used for the text is questionable because there's not as much contrast between the white background and the orange text as could be, so it could be difficult for older readers to distinguish and difficult for anyone reading large quantities of text in that color.

    But essentially, the orange is a preference thing, and not broken.

    by PBnJ on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:38:53 PM PDT

•  Bold = Bold

  Refer to Clinton: Depends on what the meaning of is is.

  by ROGNM on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 04:49:15 PM PDT

•  FYI, Opera Browser Problem

  FYI, I use Opera Browser and on the redesigned dailykos.com the vertical band of ads covers the right hand side of messages down the page. I have to select-copy-paste into a blank page in order to read what people post.

  I don't understand a lot of the instructions for users, but I assumed it was because everybody else is way more above average.

  by LNK on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 05:22:51 PM PDT

  •  I use Opera, too

    and this is extremely annoying.  

    One way around it is to click on the specific comment (the date, time stamp).  That will open that comment thread without displaying ads, so the margins are OK.  Then you can "back" into the original diary and continue reading subsequent comments.

    I tried using Firefox after the redesign, but I very much prefer Opera so I'm hoping they'll get everything fixed before too long.

    by chinook on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:58:10 PM PDT

    •  Thanks!!! n/t

      by Street Kid on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 05:00:05 PM PDT

•  This befuddled me until someone

  finally answered me in open thread.  And just in case you need to know (remove the extra spaces to make them work):

  * Bold * = Bold

  / Italics / = Italics

  [ linked text http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/7/17/0832/35320/0/post#here ] = linked text

  Thing is, I believe that some of the old commands screw up something with RSS feeds.  I don't know anything about that (it's from a diary Kos wrote), but I think the above is the new way to do it.

  I definitely agree that it needs to be fixed.

  by ksh01 on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 07:10:20 PM PDT

  •  Thanks

    Yeah, I understand that the guide above the free-text box should display what you've indicated, but it doesn't. What it displays is something so insanely unmenaingful that it confuses people -- it confuses me, and I should know better.

    by PBnJ on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 09:08:56 AM PDT

    •  sort of glares out at you

      i remember stupidly staring at it for a minute and then trying to copy it, figuring something, any thing would happen.  I felt like the ape in 2001

      by ksh01 on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 01:16:23 PM PDT

•  What about us dinosaurs stilling using IE?

  I know, I KNOW, update to FireFox, and I will, but I didn't plan to do now, there's too much else going on.

  Text in the right hand column is still missing when I click on the home page -- All that appears is the State of the Nation graphic and the Menu bar, then nothing underneath.

  I get to Recommended Diaries through the Open Threads that show them, and when I clilck on one of them, it takes me to a page with the diary and a right column that shows all the information down to "Recommended diaries,"  then blank, no RD or diaries.

  Fix it.  I'm going for more coffee.

  by Southern Bird on Sat Jul 16, 2005 at 11:09:11 PM PDT

  •  Done! 11:40 ETS -- THANKS! n/t

    by Southern Bird on Sun Jul 17, 2005 at 02:44:33 AM PDT