Daily Kos

Zero Pollution Car

by weirdscenes

Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 08:56:22 AM PDT

It's entirely off topic but I have to spread the word on this car I'm reading about. Now if only this was available in America today I'd be driving to work today without gasoline, biodiesel, methane, ethanol, corn oil or hydrogen.

Interested? More on after the fold.

This weekend I stumbled on an article about a European company that has been working for 10 years to build a car that runs on compressed air. The MDI Air Car is too cool for words. It's now in production. My only question is where can I buy it?

The MDI Air Car runs on a tank of 90m3 of normal air, refills at a service station in 3 minutes, drives 60 mph for 120 miles and has emissions you can breath.

For the energy profile, compare 2 hours of gasoline burning to 3 minutes of an air compressor engine.

In 2 hours at 60 mph I would get 26 miles per gallon so I'd burn up 4.6 gallons of gas and I'd hit the Air Car range of 120 miles.

3 minutes running a professional strength air compressor, say 10 horsepower, would draw 7.5kw for 3 mins. (est 750 watts per horsepower) At 220V that's 34 amps for 3 mins or 1.7 Amp-hours.

For comparison this is less than the electricity required to run 4 100 watt light bulbs continuously for an hour.

So 4.6 gallons of gasoline or 4 100 watt light bulbs left on for the duration of the drive?

Drat, I've got to go burn a gallon and get to work. Maybe someone can check my math?

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  •  The math is the problem (4.00 / 2)

    it's the assumptions.  "say 10 horsepower"?

    When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

    by RequestedUsername on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:01:18 AM PDT

    •  10HP is OK, but it might have to run longer (none / 1)

      to re-pressurize the gas station's reservoir.

      The driver might be able to fill the airtank in 3 minutes, like filling the gas tank in 3 minutes, but the compressor might have to run a while to get the tank back up to pressure.

      On the other hand, if the system is 100% efficient, and it stores 10HP for 3 minutes, and lets it out evenly over 30 minutes, the poster has 1HP to work with.

      --Is RINO a good thing?

      by anonymous coward 8 on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:31:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's only a zero pollution car (none / 0)

    if you have magical fairies filling the air tank. Once you factor in the electricity used to run the air compressor, it becomes much less impressive, though could still have its uses.

    -- war-weary.

    by peacemonger on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:04:03 AM PDT

  •  Km/h (none / 0)

    Kilometers per hour. Not miles per hour. It's also basically a hybrid engine. It states that it runs on fossil fuels to recharge the air tank.

    So rather than using a battery, it uses air to store the kinetic energy.

    by Cyphrus42 on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:11:22 AM PDT

  •  Wouldn't even need a pump neccessarily (none / 0)

    One could take advantage of the property of gases to expand in a temperature differential

    by tkhoveringhead on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:12:49 AM PDT

  •  Use a horse (none / 0)

    to compress the air.

    This is a test of the Emergency Free Speech System.
    This is only a test.
    If this had been an actual emergency, I'd already be locked up.

    by ben masel on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:28:32 AM PDT

    •  better yet, (none / 0)

      just ride the horse.

      Why hasn't that been discussed?  I would bet these animals are perfectly suited for transporting one, maybe even two people at a time.

      One can even imagine some form of carriage-like device with wheels to which these horses would be connected.

      Damn, I am going to write a diary about this RIGHT NOW.

      [All kidding aside, thanks to the author for at least bringing the topic up.]

      -----------------------------------

      Don't look for me, I've Gone to Croatoan

      by immortalmikey on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:57:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  it's about efficiency and energy storage (none / 0)

    Here are the things we need from cars:

    1. Convert energy to motion as efficiently as possible

    2. Offer approximately the same range and performance as current cars (300 mi per fueling, good acceleration and hill performance, 70mph+ top speed)

    3. Energy storage must be safe for ordinary handling.

    What we really WANT is to get off fossil fuels and onto some direct or indirect solar power (wind and biomass are just indirect solar).  That means either generating gasoline/diesel from biomass (methane and methanol fail the safety test, and methanol fails the range test), or using an alternate storage mechanism.

    Now, if compressed air can be stored with sufficient energy to operate an efficient engine and meet the range/power requirements, all is good - compressors can be operated by efficient solar power.  

    I trust Obama's judgment more than I trust my own. Why are YOU telling him what to do?

    by Leggy Starlitz on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:32:34 AM PDT

  •  I'm intrigued. (none / 1)

    I drive a 91 Civic that gets pretty good gas mileage.  When it comes time to replace it, I am planning on a getting a hybrid, but perhaps these air-powered cars will then be available here in the US.

    From the website:

    How much will the cars cost?

    In Europe the MiniCAT's will be put forward at a base price of 6.860 Euros (without Iva) except in some options.
    The CityCAT's will be put forward at a base price of 9.460 Euros (without Iva) except in some equipped options. Taxes and subsidized options have not yet been calculated.

    This sounds like the cars would be pretty reasonably priced, depending of course, on the value of the Euro relative to the dollar at the time.

    How do you refill the compressed air tanks? How much does it cost?

    The car's air tanks will be refilled thanks to the engine working in compressor mode. This will take about six hours. Otherwise the tanks can be refilled with high pressure in three minutes at an air station. The cost of refueling with the generator will be approximately 1.5 Euros.

    I'd probably take the three minutes to fill up at an air station, but the price of refueling looks appealing.  1.5 Euros is a very small amount of fuel to be used, given the high gas prices in Europe.

    The 200-300 km range between filling up on air seems adequate to me, as my driving is mostly urban, and when I do need to go on long drives, that would mean a short stop every 2-3 hours.

    I think I want one.

    It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

    by A Citizen on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 04:49:16 AM PDT

    •  Be careful... (none / 0)

      The 200-300 km range between filling up on air seems adequate to me, as my driving is mostly urban, and when I do need to go on long drives, that would mean a short stop every 2-3 hours.
      The maximum speed of this car is 60 mph. With respect to your long drives, I would be astonished if the spec'ed "200-300 km" range of the car is at absolute maximum speed. This is an urban car, not a US freeway-cruiser.

      By the way, for your "short stop" you would have two choices. Find a source of 220V for four hours, or find a source of 4500 PSI compressed air.

      It sounds like Negre has done some fascinating engineering here, but it's still a long a long way from production, and then you end up with a super lightweight short-range urban car. A good thing, to be sure, and with some potential advantages over battery-powered cars if he can get the manufacturing cost of his storage tank and related high-pressure hardware down to where he claims.

      -Jay-

      by JayBat on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:42:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  thanks for the post (none / 1)

    This website is really cool. I appreciate looking at something that is about the positive potential of the human heart and mind. Lately I feel as if the US is in the dark ages while lots of the world is getting on with rational problem solving.Also want to point out that it's worth looking at the model the company proposes for setting up manufacturing plants. Instead of a huge centralized Detroit-type set up, it would be lots of small companies spread all over and capable of turning out the entire vehicle more locally (after training at the main company in France). It really boosted my day to read about this car.

    by annepaisley on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:01:34 AM PDT

  •  There's someone in the US doing something similar (none / 0)

    Engines running on compressed air have been around for a long time.

    The big key with his engine is he invented a system where the compressed air is used to generate electricity, which operates an egine and a compressor which recompresses the used air.  It's not a perputual motion machine but it's very efficient.

    It gets equivalent power to gas engines and has more range.

    by Fro on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:03:25 AM PDT

  •  doesn't really exist yet (none / 0)

    Where can you buy it? You can't, because it doesn't really exist yet (read the website carefully).
    refills at a service station in 3 minutes
    No you can't. They assume a high-volume source of 4500 PSI air. You'll not find that at any service station. You won't even find it at a dive shop; max pressure for standard scuba tanks is 3500 PSI.

    By the way, check out what a 3500 PSI scuba tank can do when it fails...

    at 60 mph I would get 26 miles per gallon
    The proposed MDI cars are tiny, 1650 lbs. If your gasoline-powered car weighed 1650 lbs, you would be getting 56 mpg, not 26 mpg.

    (BTW, yes I know a tank of gasoline is a bomb waiting to go off also; I'm just saying "no free lunch")

    I assume the two main reasons that MDI is having funding trouble are (1) manufacturing those carbon-fibre tanks at a cost low enough to sell a car for $12,000 is not currently possible, and (2) who's going to pay for hundreds of "air stations"?

    It's a cute idea.

    -Jay-

    by JayBat on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:19:31 AM PDT

    •  Air Car (none / 0)

      I assume the two main reasons that MDI is having funding trouble are (1) manufacturing those carbon-fibre tanks at a cost low enough to sell a car for $12,000 is not currently possible, and (2) who's going to pay for hundreds of "air stations"?

      It's a fair assumption that the cost of manufacturing the tanks will decrease.  Hopefully, it will decrease to the point of being cost-effective.  

      As for the air stations, you might as well ask "Who's going to pay for hundreds of "gas stations"?  With the kind of equipment required to produce this much pressurized air, it's not going to be free.  I would imagine that as more of these cars were on the road, gas stations would add high-pressure air pumps as well.

      It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

      by A Citizen on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 06:07:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Heat generated by filling tanks (none / 0)

        Hmmm.. I'd wonder too if "filling stations" wouldn't run into issues with heat generated by filling tanks quickly enough to be generally accepted.  I know that filling 3k psi air tanks for firefighting can make 'em fairly warm if the operator is running the valves too fast.  We're talking about significantly more volume and pressure here - anyone able to do the math on the heat generated?  Of course once the air in the tank cools down, your pressure drops.  So if you fill up a 100 cubic meter tank to 3k psi very quickly, and then let it sit, soon it won't read 3k psi, but 2800.  Instead of your tank reading full, it's only 3/4.  

        But, I'll bet these cars would have great air conditioning as the air is released.  So they're great for short trips in the southern US.

        It's as if we had gone to war with starfish, and decided the way to win was slice off their arms and toss them back into the ocean. - Devilstower

        by Austin in PA on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 06:43:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  practical concerns (none / 0)

        It's a fair assumption that the cost of manufacturing the tanks will decrease.

        Agreed, if/when it's possible to build one at all. They haven't yet. Their test car has a steel tank and a maximum range (apparently) of <10 km. They have a looooong way to go. <p> As to the air stations, I was responding to a poster that was ready to go buy an MDI car, and just pointing out that even if the car existed, the infrastructure does not.

        BTW, MDI claims that an air station fillup will cost about $2.50, which is pure fantasy. An ordinary 3500 PSI scuba tank air fill usually sells for about $5. AFAIKT, an air car's tank capacity is about 20X a normal scuba tank, and we're filling to 4500 PSI. So I'll guess something anywhere between 2X and 4X the scuba tank refill, $10-20.

        -Jay-

        by JayBat on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 07:44:42 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Air Car (none / 0)

          Agreed, if/when it's possible to build one at all. They haven't yet.

          Ok.  I had misread you.  I thought you were saying that the tanks couldn't be produced sufficiently cheaply, not that they haven't been produced yet.

          I'm not sure how much a tank full of air would be, but I imagine if this is being done on a larger scale, the price per unit of air would decrease.

          It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners.

          by A Citizen on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 08:01:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  MDI only has a metal air tank (none / 0)

    that in a test went 7 km.  They were working with Aerobus to create and commercialize a working light air tank that would get the range predicted and dramatically reduce the wieght of the current car.

    Until they raise the funding for finishing the air tank, they are stalled, I understand.

    THis is energy storage.  Compressing air is the best way to store energy and beats batteries, but the problem right now is weight of the air tank...

    by Sherlock Google on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:52:37 AM PDT

  •  A real alternative that will (none / 0)

    be ready soon is this:

    http://www.calcars.org/

    Hybrid Plug-in electrics that can do 30 miles on a charge and then switch to gas electric generator when the lithium batteries get too low.

    They charge up at night when the power plants still run but no one is awake to use the electricity.  This is the great benefit of electric (or air car too when that is finally ready).  THe charging or compressing uses electricity that is essentially WASTED every night.  

    And because it's off-peak it's cheap and there is absolutely no increase in carbon emissions because the plants run all night anyhow.

    So electric or air cars actually remove carbon and do NOT add any, unless you charge in the daytime or evening.

    by Sherlock Google on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 05:58:32 AM PDT

  •  reality check...do the math (none / 0)

    90 m3 (90 cubic meters)  =  3332 cubic feet

    Now, a big aircompressor, the kind you see being towed on a four wheel trailer, with a four cylinder gasoline engine  (runs several jack hammers),  puts out around 100-150 cu. ft./ minuts, at a pressure of around 125 psi, so that puppy will take at least 22 minutes to fill the car's tank to 125 psi, which isn't a very high pressure.  (SCUBA bottles go up to around 3000 psi, iirc).

    don't always believe what you think...

    by claude on Tue Jul 19, 2005 at 06:38:21 AM PDT

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