Daily Kos

Brazilian killed by UK agents wore NO bulky coat, did NOT jump turnstile, had LEGAL visa

Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 11:38:23 PM PDT

Nearly every detail  UK Gvmt gave  initially about killing of innocent Brazilian were untruthful.

Contrary to earlier media statements, it dribbled out today that Jean Charles de Menezes was not wearing a bulky padded coat, and did not jump the turnstile, and was legal in his visa status, according to a story in today's Guardian:

Brazilian did not wear bulky jacket

Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian shot dead in the head, was not wearing a heavy jacket that might have concealed a bomb, and did not jump the ticket barrier when challenged by armed plainclothes police, his cousin said yesterday.

Speaking at a press conference after a meeting with the Metropolitan police, Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said that the first reports of how her 27-year-old cousin had come to be killed in mistake for a suicide bomber on Friday at Stockwell tube station were wrong.

"He used a travel card," [a long-term transport pass, apparently---shumard]  she said. "He had no bulky jacket, he was wearing a jeans jacket. But even if he was wearing a bulky jacket that wouldn't be an excuse to kill him." ....

Mr. de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at 10am last Friday after being followed from Tulse Hill. Scotland Yard initially claimed he wore a bulky jacket and jumped the barrier when police identified themselves and ordered him to stop. The same day the Met commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, said the shooting was "directly linked" to the unprecedented anti-terror operation on London's streets.

As recently as yesterday UK police officials were still claiming that the victim jumped the turnstile, and still attempting to suggest that an improper visa status was the reason that Mr de Menezes had fled from the specially trained SO19 British marksmen agents who then pumped 8 bullets (initially reported  until 7/26 as 5 bullets) into the terrified Brazilian electrician's body. To his credit Jack Straw refused to promote  the "visa violation" rationale. The Home Office refused to comment on Mr. de Menezes  visa status when queried.

'Shoot-to-kill' victim was here legally, says Straw

Jack Straw said last night that he believed Mr de Menezes was in the country legally. "I don't have any precise information about his immigration status here," Mr Straw said. "My understanding is that he was here lawfully."

Ministers faced anger from Brazil over reported claims by government sources that Mr de Menezes may have been living illegally in Britain because his student visa had expired.
The suggestion was strongly disputed by the man's family. Mr de Menezes, 27, died at Stockwell Tube station on Friday, the day after the failed suicide bombings on the capital's transport network.

Police, who had the block of flats where he lived under surveillance, had trailed him from his home and, when he entered the station, plain-clothes officers ordered him to stop. They had, though, allowed him ¬ a suspected suicide bomber ¬ to catch a bus to reach Stockwell.

Police say Mr de Menezes fled when they challenged him, leaping over ticket barriers and jumping on to a train. Apparently fearing his jacket concealed a bomb, officers shot him dead.

His reason for running from the police remains a mystery. His friends say he was stopped several weeks ago as part of a routine search at Brixton, and did not try to flee.

Witnesses reported hearing about five shots but an inquest, which opened at Southwark coroner's court yesterday, was told he was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder.

Details of his death emerged as the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) began its investigation. The three officers involved have not been suspended, but have been moved to non-firearm duties. The investigation is expected to take several months, with full powers, including referral to the Crown Prosecution Service, open to the IPCC....

Anger was fuelled yesterday by the reports that Mr de Menezes was in Britain on an out-of-date student visa. The claims are understood to have originated from government sources. But his family insisted he was legitimately in Britain on a five-year visa; one theory is that, like many Brazilians, he may have be travelling on a Portuguese passport.

The Home Office refused to comment on his case...

Why do the UK government's story on central details of the killing of an innocent man keep changing? It should have been obvious immediately after they killed the electrician on his way to work, what *he had been wearing that day,  and from the review  of numerous CCTV camera recordings in the subway,  whether or not he had jumped the turnstile , and what the innocent victims final moments had been  like.

Why have UK authorities stonwalled and misled about crucial details and their justifications  of the shooting for nearly a week?

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Permalink | 247 comments

  •  Where's that Bopista (4.00 / 25)

    guy?? He needs to read this crap since he's posted 3 diaries in favor of this ridiculous shooting.

    I'm sorry, but I'll say it again...no one in their right mind stops when 3 guys in plainclothes yells at them while waving guns around. This is a ridiculous policy, and the British Govt. is obviously lying to save their own asses.

    •  oh I miss him already (4.00 / 6)

      he'd be so good to have around right now.

      I want to win. You want to beat him, and that's a problem for me, because I want to win. -The West Wing

      by AnnArborBlue on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 11:50:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ah yes, it would! (4.00 / 5)

        But the guy is so nuts that he'd stick to his original opinion.

        Anyway he hasn't been seen since Tuesday, when he was beautifully insulted by Slim Tyrrany in this exchange.

        It still makes me giggle!

        John McCain is so (Ned) Divine!!

        by Glinda on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 04:56:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sweet shout out! (4.00 / 4)

          Thanks!

          bobipsta is clearly an example of someone who is "cruizasy" - he knows a subject completely that you do not. Except that he doesn't.

          "I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together at Osama's homo-abortion-pot-and-commie-jizzporium." - Jon Stewart

          by Slim Tyranny on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:15:12 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Beware (none / 0)

            Just because Tom Cruise is batshit crazy, doesn't mean everything he says is wrong.

            Correlation does not imply causation.

            Or.

            Read Szasz's MYTH OF MENTAL ILLNESS.

            I remember a study in the 70's that showed poor black women in LA were inordinately given mood altering (i.e., pacifying and calming) drugs by the state (Medical) compared to the population in general. Oh. Look. A population of depressed women. (Black, single moms, poor). They have a "mental illness." Let us "cure" them with a drug that will make them happy. Oh. Look. They are no longer unhappy! Our "cure" worked!

            If your life is fucked up, the state will give you drugs to make you happy (Soma). I'm wondering about the level of prescription drugs (i.e., "happy" drugs)  being prescribed to our troops.

            Thing about it.

            Sighs.

            All things being equal, I like the pop culture reference to "cruizasy" and think it is perfectly appropriate for all Bush culture.

            (Missouri 2nd Congressional District)

            The Universe is a big place ... perhaps the biggest. -Kilgore Trout

            by fugitive on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 07:32:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You're so glib! (4.00 / 2)

            Matt, Matt, Matt. I know the history of British law enforcement.

            "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

            by jbeach on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 08:32:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Also I hope that the Darwin Award schmuck (4.00 / 10)

      reads this too.But I doubt it will change his freeper talking points, as long as its not his ass at the receiving end.
      •  Not to mention (4.00 / 6)

        that in the UK, police don't carry guns.  The policy was changed without advising the population, so that this poor guy had no idea who was chasing him.

        The people who agree with this situation, it seems to me, just didn't know enough about the situation.  

      •  calm down! (4.00 / 2)

        I'm the Darwin Award guy.  I made my statements based upon what we supposedly knew to be facts at the time.  I'm NOT a freeper, nor did I spew talking points.

        If those things had been true, my position would remain unchanged.

        BUT this is unconsionable.  Those involved in the shooting need to be prosecuted, and those who lied about it need to be fired.

        Head to Heading Left, BlogTalkRadio's progressive radio site!

        by thereisnospoon on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:06:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (none / 1)

      the truth will be revealed

      May the Schwartz be with you! http://www.ebaumsworld.com/endofworld.html

      by FLS on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 04:31:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  A witness states that they did not shout at him (none / 0)

      they put on their police caps to identify themselves.
      Others heard shouts of Run! Run!

      But the police who shot him and killed him seven times over, need sympathy, kindness and understanding. Lucky for them, they are alive to receive all this while the victim's disabled mother and cancer-stricken father are devastated. He was sending money home to them and they awaited his visits with joy. What now?

      This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

      by Agathena on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:16:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Blair's govt isnt in its "right mind" (none / 1)

      is it?

      It LIES

      Like their precious "White Papers" packed with phony faulty "intell," labelled TOP SECRET -- so no one can see the LIES within that aided and abetted Crooked Bush with his LIES for war.

      Bush: The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium ... from Africa.

      Blair has turned out to be a corruptable liar, and now, because he followed the worst possible corrupt policy of the worst possible corrupt president he is experiencing the worst fallout and reacting in the worst way.

      Around and round and round it goes.

      Galloway [who accurately calls Blair on his bullshit] a Loon of the Left, DLC? My ASS, you fucking idiotas.

      Should a "progressive" Dem blog dwell in the safe zones of a tame party, or should it drive a tame party to break out?

      by NYCee on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 11:03:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This story (4.00 / 32)

    is just not adding up. I think de Menezes ran away, confronted by plain clothes agents that he didn't know to be police and was thought he was running for his life, which turned out to be true. In Brazil, there are paramilitaries and "off duty" police who hunt down the poor of Rio de Janiero. I think some cultural context is what's missing here. De Menezes ran because his frame of reference was out of control police in his home country. Almost like he implicitly knew what the ultimate outcome was. The terrorists have ultimately won when an innocent man is gunned down in broad daylight. For the British, I'm sure for them to see their Tube system, such a symbol of sanctuary during the Blitz, turned into a living hell is no fun.
    •  Yep..... (4.00 / 17)

      Fausto Soares, who lives in London and was a friend of the victim, told O Globo newspaper that Menezes probably ran away from the plainclothes officers because he thought they were attackers.

      "He was assaulted by Englishmen (two weeks earlier) and because of that he may have been scared," said Soares, who is Brazilian.

      News24.com

      ....Listen to Ded Prez....

      by Manix on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 01:27:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And.... (4.00 / 11)

      Mr Pereira, 27, from Norbury, south London, disputed the account of Scotland Yard that Jean Charles was challenged by the pursuing plain-clothes police officers as he stepped off a No. 2 bus at Stockwell Tube station, about two miles from his flat.

      He said: "Jean had lived in Sao Paulo. It is a dangerous city and he knew the rules there - if you run away when the police tell you to stop, then you are dead. He knows you don't run away and his English was perfect. There is no explanation for him ignoring a warning because there was no warning.

      New Zealand Herald Article

      ....Listen to Ded Prez....

      by Manix on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 01:36:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Precisely! (4.00 / 2)

        If he ran away from police in Brazil he would be shot. No doubt about it. That's why unarmed brazilians DO NOT run away or engage in car chases.
        He was in panic and he did not notice the pursiers were police.

        The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

        by lawnorder on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:21:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You know, that's what I thought, too (4.00 / 4)

          but this diary is really changing my mind. It's starting to look like he didn't run.

          Why the fuck, then, did they kill him? That's totally not clear at this point.

          •  My guess (4.00 / 3)

            has always been that he realized he was being followed by 4 or 5 men in bulky jackets.

            Who wouldn't flee when being pursued by possible terrorists?

            Your president lied to me.

            by Oaklander on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 08:45:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  According to... (none / 0)

            The one eyewitness account I saw, he did run, but the testimony doesn't show off the police in a good light. The witness was on the tube car when the poor feller was shot. He said, paraphrasing, "The guy ran onto the car, looking absolutely terrified, he either slipped or was pushed down by his pursuers, one of whom then lifted a gun to his head and fired multiple times."

            On another topic, your sig seems a little odd to me if you consider yourself a liberal, as most do on this Web site. Is your sig a knock on liberals, or do you believe, along with the liberal in the song, that "Malcolm X got what was coming, he got what he asked for this time"?

            Make love not war because love is lovely and war is very ugly, ya know?-U Roy

            by Rojo on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:40:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  El Requirimiento (4.00 / 14)

      was an early 16th-century Spanish law that was intended basically to permit the Spaniards to enslave or kill indigenous people legally.  It stipulated that any native who ran away or tried to resist the Spaniards' takeover of a town, could be murdered or enslaved or captured with permission of the crown.

      But here's the cruelty of the Requirimiento:  the indigenous people didn't speak Spanish and were not accustomed to the sight of horses, guns, drums, and Western clothing.  The Spaniards march through the jungle and enter a village and they have huge animals and swords and they are shouting in a strange tongue and banging drums and OF COURSE if you have never seen anything like this before and you have no idea who these people are, you will either run away or try to drive them off.

      For doing what was perfectly natural, the Indians were enslaved and slaughtered by the Spaniards.  This is an ironic and brutal means of converting the natural into the unnatural or the criminal:  the Spanish law of the Requirimiento provided only for the possibility of acceptance or resistance and death.

      So in this culture of "terror:"  if you are suspected of being a terrorist, you have only two choices:  acceptance of warrantless or ungrounded arrest, or being shot in the head.  For doing what is perfectly natural, such as (in the case of the Brazilian man murdered by UK police) running away from strangers who are chasing you and who seem to be potential attackers, one has only the choice, in this dangerous new legal climate of "terror" of submitting to attack, or dying.

      To me, this is horrifying.

      •  Again, I'll make this point (4.00 / 5)

        the UK police don't have guns.  They did not announce the shoot to kill policy to the UK civilian population, as you think they should have.  So, this guy did not have a clue.

        Even if they did say they were police, neither Scotland Yard or the Metropolitan police carry guns, so he must have thought they were lying.

        •  Not true (4.00 / 4)

          this changed a while ago and a quick google search turns up this article on the BBC from October 2000.  Not saying that this whole incident is not terrible, but I do think its important to get facts right.
          •  Yeah??? (4.00 / 5)

            Well...HERE are the facts.

            Anyone in Britain who DIDN'T know what was up with the police sure as hell does NOW.

            Why did this happen? It may not have exactly been "planned", but...it pays to advertise. And the government is backing these cops. Word's out now.

            Word...

            Charles

            •  no explanation from government (none / 1)

              Except, of course, those who don't: especially if they speak poor English, are deaf, don't pay much attention to the news, or have come for a visit from abroad.

              Whilst most people will of course have got part of the message, the utter failure of the government to explain the policy and inform the public regarding the procedures - such as how to identify a plain-clothes shooter ( the baseball cap ) - will lead to a recurrence of this.

              •  Yes (none / 0)

                that is true. It is just dishonest to insist that the British police don't carry guns. That has not been true for a long time. I do agree that the public should be aware of the policy.
                I also think that the police rushed into a new policy but that they had little time for measured thought and planning while in the midst of ongoing attacks. Not to excuse this but its important to inderstand.

                The whole situtation sucks and this was a horrible accident.

                •  Rubbish (none / 1)

                  Menezes could not have avoided newspaper and TV coverage of the explosions on 7 July and even the previous day. In all, police were shown with sub-machine guns wearing flack jackets and in some plain clothes police carring lighter weapons were seen. There is no way he could not know that guys were being openly carried by police in London.

                  Now despite being in plain clothes, police always have identifying baseball caps they wear when using firearms. One witness describes the police running trying to get their's on. That may indicate two things, that the police did not fully wear them before starting the pursuit and the very short time they had to make any decisions about firing. In a situation where they challenged with a number, some would challenge while the rest put their caps on. Then the rest could put the caps on. That would be a very fast reaction for them so they could be identified if a firefight broke out.

                  "That's an entirely valid point" - MBNYC

                  by londonbear on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:18:12 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No doubt (none / 0)

                    the coverage was unavoidable. I don't disagree with you.

                    But was the public informed of the shoot to kill policy? That's what I was referring to.

                  •  These were probably not police (none / 0)

                    as I read in an article from the BBC web site which I can't seem to find.
                  •  we're gonna disagree on this (4.00 / 2)

                    I'd have to disagree with that assumption. I didn't pay much attention to the police on July 7th because they were not relevant actors on the scene after the first set of bombings.

                    On 21st July they became relevant in my perception because the BBC showed footage from Whitehall of 2 armed and uniformed police officers confronting a suspect in what was a textbook demonstration of how to challenge a potential bomber, whilst making sure that they ddin't kill someone by mistake. At that point, armed police pointing a gun at me became a relevant factor in my situational awareness of the redefined London landscape; and I then noticed that plain clothes armed officers were using baseball caps to identify themselves.

                    I'm a reasonably observant person - and this shift in my perception only came on the 21st. The next morning someone is shot by the undercover police - and now I know there is a shoot-to-kill policy. My situational awareness has changed again. Please note that this is in reaction to events, and based on paying close attention to the news. I'm well aware that many people don't pay close attention to the news, aren't observant and do not act always act in unfamiliar situations in accordance with yet-to-be-defined rules of common sense.

                    There has still been no coherent effort by the government to explain the policies and procedures that are now in place. In my view this is at the very least negligent and needs to be addressed.

                •  Even British experts agree: (4.00 / 2)

                  Professor Michael Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London, said the officers who carried out the operation in south London were unlikely to be police.

                  "These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

                  Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

                  "Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

                  "It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

                  This guy said that British police are not trained to do this sort of thing, so either they were special forces, or they were untrained police.

    •  Although I don't know much (3.80 / 5)

      about Brazilian culture, I couldn't help but think that his reaction had to do with something he had dealt with is his past and he felt that running away was the thing to do. I agree with you on all points.
      I can't help but think that bin Laden is somewhere just watching and laughing his ass off. Although, I am deathly afraid of more attacks, in truth the terrorist don't have to do anything because right now they have the entire world reeling. The re-election of Bush and Blair gave the terrorist  just what they wanted, more of the same failed policies. I wonder how many people are making money from anti-terrorism industry.

      "The ultimate measure of a person is not where they stand in times of comfort and convenience but where they stand in times of challenge" - MLK

      by rickpolitic on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:36:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I do, in Brazil you DO NOT run from police. (4.00 / 4)

        No glorified bronco chases in Brazil. You run from police, you get shot. Period.

        If Jean was in a familiar territory he might have tried to hide from police, but he would never call attention to himself by jumping the turn thingy.

        The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

        by lawnorder on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:25:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But he did stpp for reg. uniformed UK police (4.00 / 2)

          on several occasions recently

          He was law-abiding.

          Mr Pereira had arrived outside the small, tidy housing estate in Tulse Hill, but was prevented from visiting the flat where his cousin Jean, an electrician, had lived with their other cousins Patrice, 31, and Vivian, 32.
          ....

          Mr Pereira agreed that his cousin had never been in trouble, but had been taught by life in the violent environment of Sao Paolo to obey certain survival laws.

          "He knew that if a policeman says stop, then you stop. In Brazil, if you don't stop, they shoot you in the back, just like the British police shot him now, in the back of the neck."

          He dismissed the idea that his cousin would have ignored a police challenge or that he would not have understood it, pointing out that Mr de Menezes had lived in London for three years and four months, the first nine months of which were spent learning English at a school in south London.

          "He came first as a tourist, but then decided to stay as a student and then to work. He told me he had a five-year residency."

          ...

          He had been steadily saving money to return to Brazil and had already bought a van to set up business with an elder brother.

          Mr Pereira said his cousin was not particularly religious although he had shown some interest in Mormonism and had spoken of visiting Salt Lake City, the city where the faith was created.

          But he said his cousin was law-abiding and had co-operated with police on four occasions on which he had come into contact with them.

          Three times, he had been stopped on his 90cc moped and once at Brixton station, his usual stop, when a police sniffer dog showed interest in his bag.

          "He was asked to open it by the police and he did so. I do not believe he ran. I do not believe he jumped over station barriers, not unless they show me the pictures and there are many cameras there."

          Alerted by his cousin Vivian on Friday evening that Mr de Menezes was missing, he had not known for sure of Jean's death until lunchtime on Saturday, when a police officer called him.

          "They found a friend's number on Jean's mobile phone and his friend told them about me and they found my number on the phone too and they rang me.

      •  bin Laden gets leverage (4.00 / 4)

        "they have the entire world reeling"
        Yes, we're running around in the dark, bumping into things and flailing wildly at them.
        Twilight Zone had an episode depicting something similar. I used to wonder how Germany could have allowed itself to change how it did... but now I'm realizing the power of imposed fear and of the choice-restricted desperation of an ill informed population.

        -- We are just regular people informed on issues

        by mike101 on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 07:15:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Precisely. (4.00 / 4)

          Again...I do not know for sure that the opposing forces are actually PLANNING this, but on the evidenceit seems to me that they WANT Buish, Blair and the rest of their handlers and co-conspirators in power, because they want to bring the disease of this civilization to a crisis.

          And in that attempt they are succeeding.

          WILDLY succeeding.

          Charles

    •  Jumping the Turnstile (4.00 / 5)

      Is a possibility, but not a death sentence.

      Having lived in London for a while in the early 90's, I can say that there is a chance that he did jump the turnstile to avoid payment.

      When I lived there, I would purchase weekly travelcards for the 2 zones I normally needed.  To board a bus you need to show your travel ID and travelcard.  Since the driver only takes a cursory glance, I realized that I could still get on despite my travelcard being expired.  You still needed to watch out for travel inspectors who would randomly jump onto buses and check people's cards for validity, but I was always able to jump off that bus and board the next when this happened.  There is a fine involved with having an expired travelcard, but do not know what that fine is now (500 quid wouldn't surprise me)...

      But the tube stations are different.  The turnstiles require you to insert your travelcard, which reads the magnetic strip and allows you to proceed IF the card is valid.  You then retrieve the card on the other side.  So when my card was expired I needed to avoid the tube, but knew which buses to take so I got by.

      MANY MANY times, I have seen people jump over the turnstiles to avoid payment altogether and admittedly, I have done so on occasion as well.  There were rarely ever security guards posted to the stations, though I doubt that is the case right now.

      So it is a possibility that the poor Brazilian did jump the turnstile, which the CCTV would be able to show in any case.

      But last time I checked, it was a fine to avoid paying to get onto the tube... not a death sentence.

      Juan was involved in the 7/7 bombings as much as Iraq was in 9/11.

    •  Food for Thought (none / 0)

      "It seems that the story was changed because people made the logical conclusion that the secret police knew all along he was not a suicide bomber, which is why they shot him in the torso. The story was then changed to try and justify the death of an innocent man who was probably ruthlessly gunned down because he had some knowledge of the 7/7 bombing and exercise cover story."

      http://www.infowars.com/articles/London_attack/bombing_aftermath_spin_continues.htm

      Maybe he knew that the people supposed to be involved with 7/7 were not terrorists, and he needed to be removed so he wouldn't tell his story.

  •  Man o man. (4.00 / 4)

    If this turns out to be accurate reporting, which it appears to be at first glance...then there is gonna be (as there should be) some serious hell to pay.

    The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

    by RedDan on Wed Jul 27, 2005 at 11:51:55 PM PDT

    •  I doubt it (4.00 / 5)

      too many people agree with police no matter what they do, for various reasons.  The police could do anything, and even a lot of people here would find a semblance of a reason to agree with police actions.  

      Sad but true.  

      •  In fascism, policy is set by the peoples' instinct (none / 0)

        never forget that the precious "people" are not good. The average man is amoral. From time to time he gets bored or frustrated with civilization and goes over to the fascists et al, who are immoral.

        CBS, the new "Memory Hole" Ask McCain, "Where's Sattar?"!

        by Paul Goodman on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 08:02:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There may be many who (none / 0)

          would justify the police's actions no matter what. There are just as many equally wrong people who are ready to attack the police no matter what.

          Both extremes are wrong. Both extremes represent a general hostility to reasoned thinking that alarms the crap out of me. Both extremes lead to fascism, and that scares the crap out of me too.

      •  Not so much in the UK (none / 1)

        They have a much more balanced attitude than here.

        And even here, in the US, there was hell to pay in NY when the cops started lighting people up for producing wallets, during 'Giuliani time'.

        "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

        by jbeach on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 08:48:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Brazil will not let this die (4.00 / 4)

      Unlike the David Kelly 'suicide', the deceased Brazilian has a government to whom the British government must answer.  If any of this stuff is remotely true, there will be hell to pay.
      •  Yes, and President Lula was a poor worker (4.00 / 5)

        until the 80's. He remembers how it feels to be "guilty" just because of your looks and clothes...
        I doubt he will let this one slide.

        The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

        by lawnorder on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:32:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lula` (none / 0)

          seems to have forgotten what it is like to be a "poor worker" when he decided to push IMF and World Bank structural adjustment programs on his country's poor.

          That said, I hope he does push for the full truth of this case and some consequent justice.

          Make love not war because love is lovely and war is very ugly, ya know?-U Roy

          by Rojo on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:47:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I recommend this diary (4.00 / 2)

    and I recommend that you recommend it too!

    Come see TV from the reality-based community at RealityBasedTV.com

    by MarkInSanFran on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 12:20:49 AM PDT

  •  Out-of-Touch Police (4.00 / 4)

    Had the Police never heard of these?

    http://www.oystercard.com/

    Maybe they should get out of their cars occasionally.

    •  Yes, they have-told relative he used Oyster card (4.00 / 8)

      According to  The Independent, a cousin was told he used a travel card and wore a jeans jacket:

      Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said: "I want to make it very clear that my cousin's actions were neither suspect nor wrong. The police have told me that he did not jump the ticket barrier, but used his Travelcard in the usual way."

      "They also told me that he was wearing a jeans jacket and was not carrying a bag. Although we are living in circumstances similar to a war situation, the police should not combat crime with crime and unjust exterminations."

      This is a relative quoting the police, not just her observations. She was told this. By the police. (Police could be muddying the waters, by why in this way? So, I take this as pretty good proof.)

      Bless you seekers of proof who have forced us to put on record the URL's and citations. Makes future references easier.

      No turnstile jumping.
      No heavy winter jacket, just the type anyone might choose on a upper-60's, low-70's F day.
      Lived in multi-flat building with common entrance.

      Now, we just need more than one witness to corroborate there were not warnings for him to stop (TimesOnLine had a witness who said he heard no warnings from the three pursuers. Now, where is that URL?)

      This poor guy, truly in the wrong place at the wrong time. To have your loved one shot to death  by the British police, whom most people think of as not carrying guns, must be so painful. Death is death, but it's somehow worse that it came from such an unexpected quarter.

      •  Oystercard? (none / 0)

        Although I agree it is a fair bet he used an Oystercard, the description is merely "travel card" which could also indicate the paper card version with the magnetic stripe on the back rather than the micro chip version.

        "That's an entirely valid point" - MBNYC

        by londonbear on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:23:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Just a thought (none / 0)

          I know that isn't clear whether it's an Oystercard or a regular Travelcard, but if he used an Oystercard that might look like he was jumping the fare because he wouldn't need to swipe anything.  
        •  You really want to (none / 1)

          get the cops off for this one, don't you?

          As a citizen of a democracy, I'm disgusted when cops kill a citizen -- or even an alien, as in this case. The Met has admitted the guy didn't jump a turnstile. Why can't you let the point rest?

  •  How is this reported in Brazil? (none / 0)

    I suppose the UK isn't all too popular there right now.

    "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas." -Winston Churchill

    by Johannes on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 02:31:45 AM PDT

    •  wait for the next (3.50 / 6)

      football match.
      I've never felt sorry for UK fans before.

      Might and Right are always fighting In our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning. Might can hardly keep from grinning. -Clarence D

      by Myrkury on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 04:04:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nós avenge a morte de... (none / 1)

        Jean Charles de Menezes! Os "bastardos da carne dos roast" de Ingleses podem ir ao inferno!

        People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

        by rgilly on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:00:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hadn't heard that one before.... (none / 0)


          We avenge the death of Jean Charles de Menezes! The "bastards of the meat of roast" of English can go to the hell!

          Bastards of Roast Beef?

          "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato

          by Bcre8ve on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:29:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Altavista machine translation... (none / 1)

            and the The French call the English "Le Ros-Boeuf"...minor derogatory term...I think it approximates "redneck".

            People in Eurasia on the brink of oppression: I hope it's gonna be alright... Pet Shop Boys: Introspective

            by rgilly on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:43:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Visit London, see the Big Bang! Bang! Bang! (4.00 / 6)

      says he wasn't using a heavy coat. Family lawyer is outraged that "shoot-to-kill" can be used in the context of law.

      The family is also angry that brititsh officials can defend the police before the investigation is concluded and that the policemen were sent to rest at home while they (family) are mourning their loss.

      His cousin says that she hopes Jean's death wasn't in vain and that the police learns a lesson with it: a crime can not be stopped by commiting another crime.

      http://jbonline.terra.com.br/papel/internacional/2005/07/27/jorint20050727004.html

      Visit London, see the Big Bang! Bang! Bang! Bang!

      The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

      by lawnorder on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 07:05:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Who should we fear (4.00 / 6)

    Here in England the refrain about they keep claiming that the Terrorists want to divide England and that the nations will not become divided.  Yet now members of the public have to fear both the terrorists and the police to fear as they go about their daily lives.

    My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
    Philly for Obama

    by Luam on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 03:24:26 AM PDT

  •  Rashomon (4.00 / 7)

    Let it be a lesson to those who speculated recklessly about the facts of this case based upon a specious-at-best government account, and who jumped to the conclusion that the victim surely had it coming.  Your energies might have been better spent figuring out the right questions.
    •  oh dear (4.00 / 3)

      That notice applies to about 20% of the population of London during the Summer; in Winter it could apply to up to 100%!
    •  "look a bit foreign?!" (4.00 / 10)

      C'mon, just say it, quit pussyfooting around.  When I'm in London I'm more than a bit foreign.  I am foreign: I'm American.  I can even LOOK foreign, because I can dress American.  But I'm pasty northern-European white with red hair, so I'm therefore okay, I guess.  Wait!  I look Irish!  THAT'S still pretty fucking foreign in certain English circles.  

      "Look a bit foreign."  Bite my ass.  I understand you're trying to help, but, still: bite my ass.  

      I'm sure all the people of Indian and Afro-Caribbean descent whose families have lived in England for generations really love being treated as dangerous strangers in their native country.  

      While we respect the right of individuals to express their own points of view, they are not entitled to their own facts.-- NAMI

      by Kalopsia on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 04:54:47 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uh, this is Photoshopped, right? Not real, right? (none / 1)

    •  a cultural memory (4.00 / 3)

      If it's for real "looking a bit foreign" might be a cultural joke - Rowan Atkinson (Mr Bean) was dealing with rascism and harrassment in the London Met in the 80's. He was dressing down a uniformed grunt for continually arresting a black guy who'd lodged official complaints with the Police Authority.
      Atkinson read off a list of trumped up charges that escalated from "looking a bit foreign" "walking with an offensive wife" to "being in possession of thick black lips and curly hair"
      "Have you got anything to say?" asks Atkinson
      "He's a villain, sir"
      "He's only a villain because you keep arresting him!!!! Get Out!!!"

      Strange to remember a 20+ year old skit with such clarity, but it was a big issue that minorities weren't represented in the Force policing a multicultural city.

      Avoiding Theocracy at Home and Neo Cons Abroad

      by UniC on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 05:44:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Accurate? (3.00 / 4)

    I'd like to draw your collective attention to a different part of the quotation:
    Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian shot dead in the head, was not wearing a heavy jacket that might have concealed a bomb, and did not jump the ticket barrier when challenged by armed plainclothes police, his cousin said yesterday.
    So far I've seen nothing to suggest that the Cousin who's being quoted here was with JC at the time of the shoooting. Based on that (and feel free to  correct me if there's a reference that he was there at the relevant time), I don't see how it's possible for the Cousin to asset with such determination that he did not jump over the ticket barrier. He may not have ever done so while in the company of his Cousin, but that by no means guarentees he didn't during the incident in question.

    I'm also curious how the Cousin can be so sure about the jacket being worn. If he was in the house just before JC left, that's fine; but he should say so, in order that we beleive his story. As for the question of the jacket itself, it should be a relatively simple matter to find out. The Met was watching his house and tracking him on the bus; it's not possible that he was never shot on film that entire time. Relase a CCTV still from the bus, to at least verify that part of he story.

    For the record and all, I still think the shooting was wrong. The policy itself is solid (as I've writtenabout elsewhere), bu this individual implementation of it casts a serious doubt onto the fitness of the Met to have the right to carry out such a potentially dangerous operating rocedure.

    AT&T offers exciting work for recent graduates in computer science. Pick up the phone, call your mom, and ask for an application.

    by Scipio on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 03:57:10 AM PDT

    •  er.... (4.00 / 8)

      There are a couple of incorrect details in what you've written - the pollice were surveilling an apartment block and did not know which flat Menezes had come from - I'm not sure how many flats there are in the building, but there was an overwhleming balance of probability from the outset that he had no connection to anything.

      The cousing has stated that he was wearing a denim jacket. However, a secondary issue to this is that the bombs on the 7th and 21st were all hidden in bags - Menezes had no bag. To my knowledge, there has never been an instance of a suicide bomb belt being found in the UK, let alone used. Given this, what prompted the police who were surveilling Menezes to make the assumption that he was indeed wearing a bomb-belt?

      When the police saw him coming out of the building they were surveilling what prompted them to consider him to be worth tailing? If they considered him to be an imminent danger to the public, why did they not confront and challenge him at the entrance to the apartment block?

      It seems to me that the police, having made a basic wrong call, entered into a chain of poor decisions that were self-reinforcing - their pattern recognition skills, basic London "smarts", and inability to self-correct due to poor situational awareness are the key points in this.

      •  8 or 9 flats, per published report, with common (none / 1)

        entrance.
      •  Hey! You're Both Right... (4.00 / 2)

        Londanium, I agree with your hypothesis: the police, having not realized that there was a series of flats under surveillance, and thereby thinking that anyone that came out of those flats was a suspect, then allowed their suspicions to carry them to this tragic shooting.  And it's quite likely, therefore, that the reports of a "bulky jacket" and jumping the turnstile were after-the-fact creations to justify this horrible fuckup.

        But, Scipio's certainly right, too: Menezes' cousin can't know whether he jumped the turnstile or not. Or, at least, there's nothing in that excerpt above that suggests she would have such knowledge.  (There's no link to the Guardian story, so I don't know if there's more details in there.)  It's not clear even that she could have known about the jacket.  And while I don't know that I'd think the shooting reasonable even if Menezes had a heavy coat and jumped the turnstile, it would at least make it a closer question for me.  So I wouldn't take it as established fact yet that neither happened.

        Of course, seems to me the police could at least clear up the turnstile question with video -- I find it difficult to believe they don't have it on tape.  And the fact that they haven't released any strongly suggests to me that it wouldn't back up their story.  

        •  asdf (4.00 / 8)

          Personally, I would consider all these issues regarding what Menezes may or may not have been wearing, or how he may or may not have behaved to be MISDIRECTION - the explanation is sought in the inappropriate behaviour or demeanour of the victim.

          The reality is, as I've tried to elucidate, that the police "created" the victim through a series of procedural errors, intelligence failures, inability to maintain critical distance within the situational context ( ie the base-line odds to begin with that Menezes was even connected to the investigation were less than 10% ), basic lack of London-life savvy, and inability to understand at any point that they might be acting on false-pattern recognition.

        •  Another odd thing in the initial reporting... (4.00 / 3)

          There were two witnesses interviewed at the time that appeared on TV. One was inside the car and heard the shouts to "Get down" and "Get out". There was another man who was near the door of the car to get onboard who did not hear the shouts and didn't mention anyone running towards the train. I hope that gets cleared up eventually. The release of the videos will clear up a lot of questions and loose speculation. The block of flats, by the way, appears to be a
          10-ish story building.

          The Justice Department is no longer a credible defender of the rule of law or the Constitution.

          by Overseas on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:16:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Commnet abv-Per Independent police told cousin (4.00 / 3)

          Per The Independent's report, the police told the female cousin about 1) use of travel card "in usual way," and 2) jacket was a jean jacket.

          Does not seem to be in question at this time. But who knows, maybe someone on the force is giving relative incorrect information. Unlikely, but, who knows....

          Link to Independent

          •  Well, just to be clear, (4.00 / 2)

            The Independent reported that Menezes' cousin said that the police told her that, the report didn't provide any independent confirmation that's the case.  But I agree that's more specific, and thus more credible, than her simply saying that she knew those facts to be true.
            •  OK! We reality-based types are so picky, picky (none / 0)

            •  Cousins: (none / 1)

              deMenezes shared the flat with two cousins:
              • A 22 yr old female
              • A 32 yr old male

              If the female cousin had been home when deMenezes had left for work, she would have likely known what he was wearing. Goverment version said victim was wearing bulky padded coat, and that story did not jive with what she, as an eyewitness, saw him wearing. She could easily challenge police to show the subway video of what he was wearing and whether he jumped the turnstile without paying  at the time of the killing. Police were caught in at least one lie on the coat apparently, and did not wish to dig a deeper hole for themselves in possible lawsuit trial, by continuing to lie once they had been challenged on it.
      •  The type of block (3.50 / 4)

        Londanium, if you are from London you will know what I mean when I say these are brick built inter-war coundil blocks with an open balcony and a staircase in the middle.

        For others, typically these have two or three apartments, depending on size, either side of the staircase and their front doors open directly on to the balcony. I heard Menezes' cousin in an interview which suggested that there were more than 9 apartments. From the photographs I have seen, there are flats on the ground floor and three or four above. This type of block sometimes has railings on the outer wall of the balcony but this had the more typical solid brick walls.

        As I have noted elsewhere, the cousin let slip the numbers of Menezes' and the suspect flats. My own suspicion based on that comment is that the police saw him coming out of his own flat but mistook it for the one they were observing because of the angle they were looking at it. I had initially thought these were single entrance modern blocks with the staircase and flat doors all internal so you could not identify which flat someone exited. This new scenario would make the police's assumptions based on a very early error and the actions of the armed police more understandable.

        "That's an entirely valid point" - MBNYC

        by londonbear on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 06:17:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the "notorious" tulse hill estate (4.00 / 4)

          I don't know which block he came from - but I'm assuming that Menezes lived on, or adjacent to, the Tulse Hill Estate.

          I know the general layout of these blocks and there is no way that the police can have known which flat he came from unless it was under direct observation. Clearly it wasn't - and there was a basic error of perception/intelligence that initiated the chain of events. The police don't seem to have had the smarts to realise that they may have been chasing a shadow.

          •  Thanks for the on-the-ground reporting! (none / 0)

            And, again, what a terrible chain of mistakes.
          •  But they should have realized (4.00 / 4)

            that other people other than the ones under surveillance could have come out that door. And some of those could be dark haired, and have an Arab appearance, and even could have been Arab and yet could have been quite innocent of anything at all.

            They didn't.

            Now, what does that say about the police's preparedness?

            Not to mention that they allowed a suspected suicide bomber enter a bus at rush hour.

            And had no way to stop him other than shots to the head in a crowded subway car?

            I don't think the London police have any idea of how to track and stop a suspected suicide bomber at all.

      •  London Flats (4.00 / 3)

        Most were similar to the one we lived in... At the actual street number, say 33 Westchester, there could as many as five floors and 10 apartments.  

        Jean would definitely be sharing the same door to the street as other flats.  The police know this and should have taken that into account when investigating the Brazilian.

        •  No (4.00 / 3)

          Although there are many, many flats like that in London the ones that Menezes lived in were different (see Londonbear's post) - from what I've open deck access flats with a visible balcony.  Depending on where exactly the cops were watching from, they may not have been able to see every front door in the block but it isn't the same as the sort of flats you're talking about.

          Like others I was prepared to cut the cops a lot of slack on this incident at the start, but the more we learn, the more apalling it becomes.  Apart from the tragic killing of Mr Menezes, as others have said, if the police did suspect he was carrying a bomb why did they let him board a bus in rush hour?

          I'd guess the main contributory factors to this tragedy were (in order of importance):

          • Unclear rules of engagement for the police
          • Unclear chain of command
          • Poor communications procedure and confusion in the control centre
          • Lack of clear identification for armed plain clothes police
          • Panic and hysteria

          Gerry no longer in London, but in Belfast, and too lazy to change his signature.

          by GerryInLondon on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 08:50:49 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Why did they follow him? (3.00 / 4)

        Because he was brownish, more than lkely.

        This is The Third World War. The war between the developed nations and the Third World. The BROWN Third World, mostly.

        He looked like he was from the Third World; he was leaving an area that was under anti-terrorist surveillance; thus he was the enemy. And they were RIGHT. This is the outcome is a self-fulfilling prophecy first written when Europeans initially found that they had certain technological and societal adbvantages over many of the other cultures of the world. They used them and used them and used them, and now they have created a situation where literally 4/5ths of the world...whether all the people of EITHER SIDE are yet aware of it or not...are "the enemy."

        Betcha more of that 4/5ths are aware of it now than they were before they executed THIS particular runaway slave.

        "Runaway slave!!!???", you say?

        Yes.

        He ran away from dat ol' plantation down souf where de slaves is kep' all barefoot an' TERRIBLEFIED ob de POlice so dat he could live free in de north. ("They don't all carry guns here" he wrote to his mother.) And he was summarily executed because he was brown. Like an A-rab.

        "Let that be a lesson to them, those wogs!!!" says old John Bull.

        And the game escalates up another notch.

        Nice.

        Charles

        •  Please (none / 0)

          this is inflamatory, reactionary rhetoric.

          Is the world fucked up? yes.

          Is there rascism? certainly.

          Unfairness, injustice? Yes and yes again.

          But its a little more complicated than global domination by 1/5 of the worlds population.

          And just to make one point, which I'm sure will get me flamed by the tin-foil hatters is that while there are certainly reasons that this terrorism is happening realted to western policies and abuses around the world- the leadership of the muslim community has done almost nothing to stand up against this either. Terrorism is tolerated, even encouraged by the religious and secular leadership of many of our allies including Paklistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. (There might be some public mouth service but not a lot of action.) Western govts. especailly the US and UK  might have some lousy, destrcutive policies and have committed outrageous atrocities in the execution of an unjust war but that does not justify blowing up commuters on their way to work, sorry.

          •  Whoa (none / 1)

            I don't share Charleslives's worldview, but nowhere did he justify terrorism as your post implies.  You need to take the time to read before replying with that kind of accusation, otherwise you are just arguing with a strawman.  

            No one likes armed missionaries. -- Robespierre.

            by Gator Keyfitz on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 09:28:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're right (none / 0)

              that is not what I meant to imply. I don't think he was justifying terroism but a lot of people are willing to simply overlook it and make comparison to things that simply don't apply. And calling the victim here a slave has nothing to do with anything. It is just heated rhetoric, like calling th victim here another Diallo.
              Hey maybe there are even paralells but I was just trying to come back to the fact of the situation. This man was a victim of terroism. The police in london are just as terorized as everyone else - I say this is not an excuse- just an explanation. Is it possible that the london police are gun toting cowboys ready to kill anyone that looks at them the wrong way. Possibly but not probably - at least so far that does not appear to be the case. Just trying to keep things in perspetive.
              •  That's your authoritarian (none / 0)

                personality coming through again.
                •  Haha (none / 0)

                  I really don't know what else to say to you anymore. Anyone (or any reasonable person that is) can read over my comments and see that what you're saying is not the case.
                  •  Here are a couple (none / 1)

                    Not sure which would best fit.
                    1

                    2

                    Inquiry that does not achieve coordination of behaviour is not inquiry but simply wordplay - Richard Rorty

                    by BuckMulligan on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 12:24:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  And if any of the (none / 0)

                    rest of us agree with non cest non [about your personality, as "revealed" by several of your posts on this thread alone] then we, too, are "unreasonable."
                    Your posts remind me of a certain nursery rhyme, which I'll paraphrase: "When they are good, they are very very good; and when they are bad.."

                    "McCain lies 50% of the time; I'm not exactly sure about what, since he's on both sides of every issue." -Texasblu

                    by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 29, 2005 at 01:51:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  As good a justification of (none / 0)

                murder as I have ever read.
                This man was a victim of terroism. The police in london are just as terorized as everyone else - I say this is not an excuse- just an explanation.
                Almost as good as "..we had to destroy the village in order to save it."

                "McCain lies 50% of the time; I'm not exactly sure about what, since he's on both sides of every issue." -Texasblu

                by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 29, 2005 at 06:15:12 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I am not "defending" ANYONE. (none / 1)

            I am merely pointing out what appears to me to be the system in place here, the system that is currently ramping right up into full scale world war with a good possibility of NUCLEAR war. And it is CERTAINLY not "reactionary", what I am saying. I want to PROGRESS. PAST this. A reactionary view would be what is putting us into this pickle vat in the first p[ace. "Keep them wogs down by any means necessary." Just as it always was.

            "Justify blowing up commuters on their way to work?" All I want to do is to STOP blowing people up. On ALL sides. And the single most important thing that we could do to stop this system from progressing to its almostinevitable nuclear conclusion is to stop messing with the economies of the Third World. The whole history of the last 400 or so years has been one of militarily enforced economic impreialism. Plain and simple. Simple as that.Take the economic hit...we are way too fat anyway...and STOP IT NOW. The extremist Muslims and hustler dictators are only there BECAUSE of this system. Take away the reasons for their acceptance by the people of the Third World and they will no longer BE in power.

            AND WE ARE THAT REASON.

            Back off of the feed trough a little and watch what happens.

            If we can do so.

            I am afraid that we are too addicted to stop consuming without a SEVERE intervention. Which is what is happening now. My fear is that the intervention...the operation...will be successful but the patient will die.

            Stay tuned...

            Charles

        •  sarahzb + mrblifil... (none / 1)

          Let me ask you a question.

          Why did you rate the above comment "marginal"?

          I am new here, and I am curious. Is there any objective guide to this rating scheme? Precisely what does "marginal" mean? Out on the margins of...of what?  The truth? The ACCEPTABLE truth? Civilized discourse? (Whatever THAT may mean.) What?

          If you have something to say to me...well then, SAY it. Don't hide behind "ratings".

          THAT is not civilzed discourse, as far as I can see.

          Thank you...

          Charles

    •  The cousin said he had a train pass (4.00 / 2)

      And the reason she knows he would have used it is because in Brazil NO ONE runs from police, as it is certain you will get shot.

      The Permanent Republican Majority lasted about as long as The Thousand Year Reich

      by lawnorder on Thu Jul 28, 2005 at 07:08:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Reading skills are helpful (4.00 / 4)

      Like taking a peek at the second paragraph of the quoted text:

      Speaking at a press conference after a meeting with the Metropolitan police, Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said that the first reports of how her 27-year-old cousin had come to be killed in mistake for a suicide bomber on Friday at Stockwell tube station were wrong.

      The newspaper makes clear the ultimate source for the cousin's information was the Metropolitan police force -- the same people who killed Menezes. Given that the Guardian is a reputable newspaper, we can assume the reporter checked out with the police the cousin's account. While it is true that no police sources are quoted anywhere in the article, the Guardian has fact-checkers as good as those employed by any major press organization in the United States. Given that the cousin was accompanied at the press conference by both her lawyer and by Bianca Jagger, there is an additional presumption that she is telling the truth.

      In other words, this isn't the case of a tv reporter sticking a microphone under someone's chin while they're standing on the doorstep of their home, and then recording the first blather that comes out of their mouth. It was a formal press conferenc, following an official informational meeting with the police.

      As it stands now, her account is credible. At least until the police deny it directly.

      •  Yes (none / 1)

        but I'd also like to point out that the diarist's conclusion that the changing information about the case does not mean that the government is trying to cover anything up.

        "Why do the UK government's story on central details of the killing of an innocent man keep changing? ....Why have UK authorities stonwalled and misled about crucial details and their justifications  of the shooting for nearly a week?"

        First off there were a lot of confliting reports in the very beginning, which is to be expected, especially eyewitness accounts which are notoriously unreliable. The police there quickly set up an inquiry which was the best reaction they could have to such an incident.

        The whole thing is a horrible tragic accident. I hope that at the very least the government thinks through their policies and learn's from this. Their actions thus far seem to indicate that this is their intention.

        •  Eyewitness accounts are unreliable (none / 1)

          no doubt about that. But the source for "jumping the turnstile," "South Asian appearance," and "bulky coat" was the Metropolitan police. That is, the agents who killed him probably put those details in their official after-action reports.

          Credit goes to the Met for owning up to the facts that the physical evidence doesn't support the killer cops accounts.

          Somewhere along the line, those murderers have a lot to answer for.

          By the way, yesterday I never would have used such strong language to describe them. I would have talked about a tragedy, about misunderstandings, things like that. But with this evidence -- shit, they executed the poor guy, and then lied to cover up why they did it.

          •  And as long as certain (none / 0)

            "authoritarian personality" types keep making excuses for the reasonableness of official lying, the uniformed, taxpayer-supported liars will keep lying; knowing, as they do, that the fearful "civilians" will always say "My uniformed thug-gang-in-blue, right or wrong (as long as they don't execute me or mine)."

            "McCain lies 50% of the time; I'm not exactly sure about what, since he's on both sides of every issue." -Texasblu

            by davidincleveland on Fri Jul 29, 2005 at 02:05:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  My guess is in Britain, like most moderate , (4.00 / 2)

          democratic countries, there are competing factional viewpoints for any given policy within the goverment, the domestic police system heirarchy, and the judicial system. And importantly, they all have pretty much equal access to the press (and no one of the factions dominates/controls  all of the govermental branches or the press,  unlike the situation in the US).

          What might be going on here is the people (Blair?) who authorized an aggressive shoot-to-kill policy to be focused against "suspected Islamist extremists", with a broad latitude of 'kill' authority given directly to agents to decide who is a terrorist suspect (a vague imprecise concept; terrorist = brownskinned persons, if one believes the messages coming from our media, movies, and politicians), and then having this policy promptly blow up in Blair's face, are now engaging in CYA to mitigate their obvious liability, and the public outrage directed against Blair.

          Other people in the government and British regular police who had privately argued against deployment of the extra-judicial shoot-to-kill agents, but had been overruled by Blair--and perhaps had inside knowledge of previous lethal mistakes the shoot-to-kill agents had made (like the squelched rumors of extrajudicial police marksmen killings of one

          * POLICE were yesterday probing reports a man had been "neutralised" outside Canary Wharf.

          Is is believed the man was shot dead by police marksmen outside the Credit Suisse First Boston bank.

          or two mistaken 'Islamist extremist bomber suspects' killings near Canary Wharf on 7/7),

          A New Zealander working for Reuters in London says two colleagues