Daily Kos

Ban me; or, Welcome Heathers

Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:24:32 PM PDT

Our experience since Roth requires us not only to abandon the effort to pick out obscene materials on a case-by-case basis, but also to reconsider a fundamental postulate of Roth: that there exists a definable class of sexually oriented expression that may be suppressed by the Federal and State Governments. Assuming that such a class of expression does in fact exist, I am forced to conclude that the concept of 'obscenity' cannot be defined with sufficient specificity and clarity to provide fair notice to persons who create and distribute sexually oriented materials, to prevent substantial erosion of protected speech as a byproduct of the attempt to suppress unprotected speech, and to avoid very costly institutional harms.

Paris Adult Theatre I v. Slaton, 413 U.S. 49, 103 (1973) (Brennan, J., dissenting).

Yes, I know that dKos is not covered by the First Amendment, but I'm going to go out on a limb:  Kos's dictatorial purge of conspiracy-minded nutcases harms the blog he worked so hard to build  more than the nutty diaries that prompted the action - diaries that almost no one pays attention to anyway.

I gotta admit: I never did like Justice STEWART's concurrence in Jacobellis v. Ohio, 378 U.S. 184, 197 (1964), in which he stated about obscenity, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . [b]ut I know it when I see it . . . ."

[Those who have read Bob Woodward's The Brethren know the story behind the Supreme Court's obscenity cases in the 1960s and 1970s.  A good read; I recommend it.  (You'd be surprised at how the liberal judges individually defined what was and was not obscenity.)]

I'm more of the Justice STEWART view, quoted above, that such a standard-less standard is simply unworkable.  And the same is true here, on Daily Kos.

On July 5, not long ago, kos wrote this about how the Right is like our "Islamic crazies" enemies:

Free Speech

   

Al Qaida/Taliban: Anyone who disagrees with us is an infidel and must be silenced
    American Taliban: Anyone who disagrees with us is a traitor and must be silenced
    Liberals: Anyone who disagrees with us is in for a spirited discussion

Now, kos says this isn't about disagreement with what people are saying (the "this is not an echo chamber" assertion made me laugh out loud, especially given the many posts by Kos's merry band of front-pagers, and others, with the "conform! or else!" message).  But make no mistake: this is irrefutably a content-based restriction, and - Hunter's "community standards" post notwithstanding (another SCOTUS standard I never did like) - one that is impossible to figure out with any degree of certainty.

Where do we draw the line?  Is believing that the Kennedy assassination (either one, plus MLK Jr.'s too) was the work of more than one person a ban-able belief?  What about aliens at Area 51?  The death of Diana, Princess of Wales?

How about Operation Northwoods, a CIA plot to commit acts of apparent terrorism
and blame them on Cuba to encourage support for a war.  Oops, that turned out to be true (after a looong time, of course.  The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male?  Wait, that one turned out to be true too - and it took over 50 years.  

Back in 1972, would diarists have been banned for openly questioning whether the Nixon administration had anything to do with the Watergate break-in?  (It did.)  People scoffed at Hillary's "vast right wing conspiracy" comment.  Turns out she was right, too.  What about the Guiliana Sgrena controversy?  There were multiple posts on that subject.  

What about rumor and speculation?  After all, what is a conspiracy but a "wacky" rumor, so far out that it's difficult to believe - rumor to an nth degree, I guess.  Just yesterday, Kos posted a rumor about Rehnquist's retirement.  (It turned out wrong.)  Of course, he was just repeating what he had heard.  But if a diarist repeats "rumor" or "speculation" about government involvement in bad acts, that's subject to banning (even though, as we all know, governments have been doing bad things for centuries and even millenia).

But the fact that there are true conspiracies is kinda beside the point.  The point is that - well, actually there are a couple of points:

  1.  We here at Daily Kos constantly decry the behavior of right wing blogs who ban folks for expressing contrary views.  This is similar - just a different motivation - and equally deserving of condemnation.

  2.  While we pride ourselves on being the Reality-Based Community, it simply strains reason to conclude that infrequent, nutty, off-the-wall conspiracy posts tar this site and its denizens as whack-jobs, particularly when they are nearly always roundly condemned by commenters.

[In any event, does it strike anyone as unusual that these conspiracies are attractive because our own government fosters them with its behavior over the last 5 years?]

In short, the "conspiracy" diaries are easy to ignore and do not have the negative effect on this site that many think they do.  With over 300 diaries a day, even one wacky one per day can easily go unnoticed (or, if noticed, I suggest the best response is to roll one's eyes and move on).    What won't go unnoticed, however, is a stunning over-reaction in response to such a tiny problem.

This is a sad day for Daily Kos.  I've been around since the Scoop conversion, I'm member #1409, and I depend on this site for news and analysis.  But lately I see more and more group-think, more frequent meta-diaries, and repeated appeals for conformity.  If I wanted that I'd go to Redstate.  Is that really what we want?  

To a certain extent, I guess what we want is irrelevant.  This is Kos's site and he gets to do what he wants.  But what once was a welcoming and tolerant community has turned into a Heathers clique, and I feel like a Veronica.

Tags: (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 25 comments

  •  I'm gonna go out on a limb here (none / 1)

    and recommend this.

    Goodbye, cruel Kos-world.

  •  A SCOTUS question. (none / 0)

    What weight does dissenting opinions have?

    Majority opinions become law or at least overturn existing laws but why do people keep quoting dissenting opinions?

    I really want to know.

    Now back to my regular snark.

    •  answer (none / 0)

      What weight does dissenting opinions have?

      ANSWER:  None

      As a technical legal matter, dissenting opinions have zero precedential weight.

      However, if a dissenting opinion is persuausive, a judges who are not bound by the majority opinion (perhaps because they are in a different jurisdiction), may read the dissenting opinion, agree with it, and adopt it as their own.

    •  no legal weight, but may serve as basis (none / 0)

      for when opinion to which they dissent is modified or overturned.  IANAL  -- always important to note that ..  but yuou may find people relying upon parts of dissent either in shaping their own dissent, or when modifying a previous decision.

      In MInersville v Gobitis, it was an 8-1 decision, with only Justice Stone dissenting. One finds that dissent referenced 3 years later when in W Virginia School Board v Barnette the Court by a 6-3 vote overturned the Gobitis decision.

      As the present CHIEF JUSTICE said in dissent in the Gobitis case, the State may "require teaching by instruction and study of all in our history and in the structure and organization of our government, including the guaranties of civil liberty, which tend to inspire patriotism and love of country."  
       Stone was CJ at the time of Barnette and assigned the opinion to Robert Jackson.  The reference above is not the heart of his dissent, but expressed an underlying principle of intruction which is different from compelling belief or action, which was the import of the W Virginia statute being rejected in Barnette   (these are the two Pledge cases in 1940 and 1943).

      Clearly dissents can shape later legal thinking.

      Perhaps one of the lawyers out there can express this better than I can at 45 minutes after midnight.

      do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

      by teacherken on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:44:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm down with Petey (3.40 / 5)

    Not only do I think that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, but I BELIEVE that the people who currently control our government were the perpetrators.

    This is my opinion.

    This is not a belief inconsistent with reality.

    I am a rabid empiricist.  My heroes are the philosophers of the Enlightenment.  And all I'm interested in is the truth.  Whatever it may be.  And however painful or pleasant it may be.

    My feeling on this truly important issue was solidified today after reading a diary on My DD explaining why right wing blogs don't allow comments at all.  And that reason is not that they are afraid of US.  It's because they are ashamed at the stupidity, brutality and utter immorality of the vast majority of the comments that are writ

    the ratprick: the most envied sexual instrument in the animal kingdom

    by the ratprick on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:33:06 PM PDT

    •  Greetings and salutations (4.00 / 2)

      (please allow me to finish my comments from above)

      ...........of the vast majority of the comments written by their own members.

      And after reading some of the comments that were allowed to be posted on right wing blogs that do allow comments, you'd see why the others feel compelled to use the typically heavy handed conservative response.  No Comment .  Ever.   Period.

      Kos now is faced with the same dilemma.  There are quite a few liberal assholes in this world.  Sadly.  Not as many as the conservatives have, by a long shot.  And our assholes can have strident, obnoxious, even stupid opinions.  But they're OUR assholes.  And I'll put em up against THEIR assholes anyday.  

      To paraphrase the inscription on the Statue of Liberty:
      Give me your bra burners, your tree huggers, your welfare queens, your dope smoking hippies, your conspiracy theorists yearning to be free.  

      Come.......... come to the land of the free...... where I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

      Come to Daily Kos.  And together you and I and all the others, including the PeteyP will find the truth.  

      Ban me for agreeing with PeteyP and you will break my heart.  But I'll find another blog, somewhere.  Though probably not one I love as MUCH as Daily Kos.

      Back and to the left.
      Back and to the left.
      Back and to the left.
      Back and to the left.

      the ratprick: the most envied sexual instrument in the animal kingdom

      by the ratprick on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:54:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Four diaries in a row on this subject. (none / 0)

    At this point, we're covering the angles of the angles.

    McCain housing policy shaped by lobbyist

    by sgilman on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:38:31 PM PDT

  •  PeteyP is actually Markos who is actually Rove (none / 0)

    He is posting with another alias to try to trick us into agreeing with the "diarist" and posting our own conspiracy theories so that he can then go and ban us and the people who write these diaries, thus banning himself and destroying the largest progressive blog on the internet thus securing Republican domination over the entire world.

    Blue Jersey: All the news that slips from print.

    by jmelli on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:39:15 PM PDT

  •  Honestly, (none / 1)

    I have seen far more Heather-like behavior from some of those advocating conspiracies than from those that challenge them. And part of that is the insistence that having the audacity to challenge them on facts or logic is somehow, always, "ganging up on them" by more "popular" posters. And so, every time, the fight begins.

    I'm not talking here about people who advocate one particular bit of speculation, passionately. I'm talking about a narrow set of people who advocate every bit of off-the-wall speculation that comes along, and are universally rude to those that question them.

    As I said in another diary: It is increasingly maddening that challenging some posters on the facts results in an instant accusation that you're oppressing them. You don't just have to listen to their theory, you have to give it equal validity to every other piece of evidence out there, or you're being intolerant. That's nonsense.

    Those are the posters we aren't interested in, and it is because of their behavior, not their ideas. Anyone looking for a list of "ideas" that will be banned isn't going to get one, because there isn't one.

    •  Really? (none / 1)

      Compare this

      Those are the posters we aren't interested in, and it is because of their behavior, not their ideas.

      with this

      I made a mass banning of people perpetuating a series of bizarre, off-the-wall, unsupported and frankly embarassing conspiracy theories.  I have a high tolerance level for material I deem appropriate for this site, but one thing I REFUSE to allow is bullshit conspiracy theories.

      and this

      This is a reality-based community. Those who wish to live outside it should find a new home. This isn't it.

      The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -Thomas Jefferson

      by PeteyP on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:15:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, (none / 0)

        there were several particular diaries that were the immediate cause of Kos' action. There are some theories that are so beyond the pale as to be unacceptable -- for example, racist ones: I'm assuming that goes without saying. (Well, apparently it didn't go without saying, because otherwise this wouldn't have come to a head over the last few weeks.)

        I was in on the discussions, and I can vouch that it is the behavior of a certain group of posters that is what was discussed, much more than any individual theories or ideas. We're all concerned with the perceived increasingly hostile and confrontational tone of the site, and with having more and more diaries with no work put into them other than unfounded claims or already-multiply-disproven urban legends. Those are the things we are trying to curtail.

        What makes a conspiracy theory "bullshit", vs. thoughtful, is in the presentation. Kos and I are both saying the same thing, we're just saying it differently. And yes, I'm fully aware that's not a particularly helpful response; I just don't know how to expound upon it.

  •  Why do we keep saying that we (none / 0)

    understand that Dailykos is not covered in the Constitution but keep siting it as where Dailykos has gone wrong?

    I think the letter of the law, so to speak should be followed.  The unfettered access here should allow for unpopular thought, inconvenient voices, but not inconsiderate ones, ones that refuse to respect standards and rules by the host, or the mores and pleas of the community.

    Can't someone say what they think about their suspicions without being irresponsible?

    Without blaring headlines.
    Without daming anybody who dares challenge them.
    Without falsely accusing people of trampling their rights.

    What is so wrong about saying this community has established standards, you can say whatever you like, but don't expect univeral approval, or even a univerasl handsoff approach to methods of communication. Because some of these people don't care anything about this community, they care about posing thier theories about why everything is plotting against us in every way and we all better wake the fuck up and join them.  They don't care that there is site mission here, even if unstated, and it's a privilege to be involved in this community.

    Continue to say unpopular things, even inconvenient things. But, don't disrespect the community while doing it.  Respect begets respect.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heave anymore."--Prine
    Blue House Diaries

    by Cathy on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:49:14 PM PDT

    •  Ooops...citing the site sightings. (none / 0)

      "But your flag decal won't get you into heave anymore."--Prine
      Blue House Diaries

      by Cathy on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 09:53:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  asdf (none / 1)

      Why do we keep saying that we understand that Dailykos is not covered in the Constitution but keep siting it as where Dailykos has gone wrong?

      Argument by analogy.  Nobody is accusing Kos of violating the Constitution.  But stifling unpopular speech is anethema to liberalism.

      Continue to say unpopular things, even inconvenient things. But, don't disrespect the community while doing it.  Respect begets respect.

      They weren't banned for being disrespectful (unless you count posting diaries that the site owner feels are too wacky is disrespect).

      The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -Thomas Jefferson

      by PeteyP on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:12:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, repeated ignoring of pleas (none / 0)

        to handle theories a certain way, like not posting them as facts, or as breaking news, and being intolerant to challenges is being disrespectful.  This is clearly waht led to the bannings with an offer to get back in, not the posing of theories, but how they were posed as legitimate news, and their huffy belief that if they aren't allowed to blare them as news or pose them as proof that you either join them, or prove that you have not yet smelt the coffee.  

        And I believe Kos has already covered why he isn't going to even try to be all things to all liberals.  The last time he asserted it I was angry as hell at his insensitivity, but I understood what he meant about not even trying to please every liberal faction or philosophical view especially when it's at odds with what he thinks the purpose and vision of the site is and how it might be made useful towards achieving tangible goals for our causes or the Democratic party.

        That's too party centric for some people.  They think it means lockstep water carriers, when it obviously doesn't.  People say things all the time that challenge the party, and right on the front page, and by Kos himself.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heave anymore."--Prine
        Blue House Diaries

        by Cathy on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:29:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  sigh (none / 0)

          We're not talking about Party factions here, Cathy.  Or the Party at all.  We're talking about principles.

          Never mind.

          The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers. -Thomas Jefferson

          by PeteyP on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:46:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  that would have fit (none / 0)

            under "philosphical view" (live by the liberal code of absolutely unfettered free speech) I thought.  It's not very liberal to accuse people of things without proof, either.

            You're right, nevermind.

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heave anymore."--Prine
            Blue House Diaries

            by Cathy on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:03:14 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I missed all the excitement (none / 0)

    But I think you're being too melodramatic.

    Perhaps kos should establish a wacko rating parallel to recommends; If a wacko rated diary gets recommended, well that's something to laugh about.

  •  Where indeed does one draw the line? (4.00 / 2)

    It seems to me that one of the wisest choices Kos ever made was the software he chose to run this site.  The community regulates itself, which may not be a perfect solution, but seems as perfect a solution as possible.
    Comments posted by trolls quickly vanish, and rejected diaries quickly disappear off the front page.
    It works pretty well, I think.
    Which is why I find Kos's banishment of certain members to be disturbing.
    Sure, I'm offended by the "Jews behind London bombing" diaries.  Very much so.  But you know what?  You don't beat any sense into the heads of people who think this way by banning them.  Granted, it may be impossible to talk sense into their heads in any way.  But banning them only serves to "confirm" their theories in their own minds.
    I understand that there's a whole spectrum of opinion on this.  This site is not a free speech zone, since trolls can have their comments turned into hidden comments by the community. I know that some folks object to that very feature.  I appreciate it, since I like having a site I can come to and engage in an exchange with fairly like-minded individuals without wading through the vitriolic troll-crap that can undermine a site like this.  Let the wingnuts hang out and converse at their own sites, and we'll do so at ours.  That's my attitude.
    But to go beyond the controls already inherent in Scoop to actually banning individuals is troubling to me.  It's a slippery slope, and I personally wish that Markos hadn't set foot on it.
  •  Question: How many IDs were banned? (none / 0)

    n/t

    Running against Herb "WIRETAP" Kohl in 2012. $1/year. Cash preferred.
    Masel4Senate 1214 E. Mifflin, Madison, WI 53703

    by ben masel on Fri Jul 08, 2005 at 10:54:47 PM PDT

    •  I'm guessing about 20. (none / 0)

      But don't know for sure. Somewhere in that range, I think.

      Of those, I think the vast majority are now reinstated.

      •  It doesn't matter (none / 1)

        Strong arming to achieve a desired result (modified behvior) is ugly.  There is a HUGE difference bewteen someone being racist and being banned and someone having an over the top idea and being banned for it, or even worse, banning someone for reccomending a diary expressing diverging opinions.
        Banning people that respect the "rules" and the other members of the community is really a pathetic display.  And everyone who decided to chime in supporting such horrible actions are quite sad.  your clamoring to be acknowledged and allowed into a inner circle of conformity is just ridiculous.  I would rather hang out with a million conspiracy theorists than 5 weasels who are willing to sell out the best interests of the community in exhange for a pat on the head from a "Front Pager".
           High School sucked the first time.
  •  excellent diary. (4.00 / 2)

    "But lately I see more and more group-think, more frequent meta-diaries, and repeated appeals for conformity."

    no shit.

    thing I love the most: the invariable bleatings of "thank you! thank you!" that emerge from some of the pseudo-progs around here in response to ANYONE's slapdown of ANYONE else's unpopular belief. FUCK those people. I don't object to Kos's bannings of anyone, even (his damn site, after all), but I sure hate the syncophantic ass-kissing toadies who fall all over themselves to squeal their high praises for any slapdown that doesn't affect them. gutless little shits.

    It's called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. - G. Carlin

    by RabidNation on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:35:17 AM PDT

Permalink | 25 comments