Daily Kos

Get over it already (updated)

Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 09:27:57 AM PDT

Well, I've been perusing the blogosphere and I have noticed a dangerous trend. For those of you that read DKos and MyDD, have you noticed it too? I'm talking about in-fighting.
Leading up to the 2004 election, the left was highly focused. Everyone was against Bush. Sure there was disagreements on who should be the Democrat candidate, but the left's hatred of W was more than enough to overcome anything else.

Immediatly after the election you would have thought it was the end of the world. Many bloggers talked of moving to Canada, some quit blogging, and overall everyone seemed rightly depressed.

But now that the depression has long since worn off, many folks are trying to continue the fight. And in doing so, we on the left have exposed our greatest weakness: our inability to unite.

The left is not a focused group with a clear agenda. We are comprised of many different people with very specific causes. And there is a great deal of passion from those involved to get each and every issue to the front. This was pointed out all too well by the pie-war and abortion threads that popped up at DKos. Hell, I got attacked for sharing my experience in an abortion clinic because of my gender.

And it's getting worse. Lately I have noticed an extreme bitchiness taking over any real conversation on the big sites. It seems that since the 2006 elections are too far away, folks are turning on each other. I am not going to link to specific diaries or posts, go read for yourselves. What I am trying to do here is to point out that we on the left are in real trouble.

This seems to stem from overly sensitive people who spend hours fighting with each other over the semantics of someone's comment, or far too many posts responding to a single post in disagreement. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is right. Great, except that what is happening is that what little real value the blogs have provided is being eroded.

Now, I think part of it stems from the sense that despite a lot of hard work by some folks, the enemy is still alive and kicking. No matter how much we scream, the country is still asleep. Sure, some stories have been given life on the blogs, but to date no one of great importance has been taken down. What did we expect? Do any of us really believe that sitting in our underwear googling will change the world?

Without a clear target we are just a bunch of concerned folks pushing what we think is important in a medium that only gets read by us. The average person is not going to bother reading a million posts on a million blogs just to get the news. That's why big media rules the day. They can condense the news, use flashy graphics, and repeat the same crap at the top of every hour.

Now, what happens when an outsider comes into the blogosphere and sees fifty posts comdemning one post? They do what I do and close the page. Why bother? Who fucking cares if some unknown person from who knows where got offended by the language of a post by some unknown person from who knows where.

I would say we have lost focus but we never really had focus. Hating people is not a cause. And that is what drove many people to blog in the first place. I know there are some really great writers out there doing real investigative work, but googling news and making snarky comments about it is not going to change things. I don't believe for a second that what I write matters in the big picture.

The left wants to do too many things at once, and we want it all right now. We live in this hyper-reality where everything makes sense to us and we cannot for the life of us figure out why everyone else doesn't see that we are right. But instead of getting focused and having the real conversations we need to be having, we choose to fight amongst ourselves over what he said or she said, about how Armando is wrong or Markos hates women or some other inane bullshit.

Well, keep it up folks, because we are making ourselves more irrelavant by the day. Hating Bush is not enough to win the war against the extremists in our country.

We need to focus on winning each and every little battle with them, not waste bandwidth trashing each other. We do ourselves no service when we split our community apart because someone gets offended by what someone else says.

But maybe thats just it. The left is divided into warring camps itself. The fight against BushCo brought together many folks from many different groups, and now that there is no one central theme to our attacks, we have retreated back to our comfort zones and decided it was everyone else's fault we lost our asses in 2004.

Sad. Just sad. So, where do we go from here? Well hopefully things will change as the 2006 elections draw near. But until then go on posting about how Armando is a jerk, or how Plutonium Page is a rascist or whatever is pissing you off today.

And remember to troll rate each other into oblivion.

update: I put this in as a comment, but I should have appended the post instead. So here goes.

I need to follow this thought out some more so bear with me. The left as we are called does not exist as a solid unit. It is comprised of many smaller groups that do not agree on many issues. What united the left was a hatred for George Bush. That was the underlying theme of 2004.

But look at the pictures of the protests and what do you see? A thousand signs promoting a thousand different ideas. While this is a healthy sign for democracy, it is not good for a political party. And that is the problem. The Democratic party cannot reasonably encompass such diversity in its platform because so many people will not budge on their beliefs. Everyone wants a voice, but after a while all you hear is a dull roar.

This whole thought train comes from conversations with Jerome and Markos at Demfest. They both brought up the point that the party is weakened by the in-fighting between groups who want to be the most important issue in the Democratic platform. And having taken a very hard look at the left I agree completely. We are not offering an alternative because we are too divided on what that alternative is.

The left sounds off so loudly when it comes to trashing the right, but I have yet to hear a difinitive explanation of just how we would do things differently. The anger is what unites us against them. But what are we?

One party can not be all things to all people. One voice cannot be achieved when so many are screaming to be heard. The reality of the reality based community is that we cannot win elections if we cannot explain to people what we stand for without running out of breath.

All this talk of "framing" issues proves this point. Go read a framing thread and you get a hundred different ways to say something that, while all valid, cannot be repeated verbatum by a politician on the news. We all know how the sound bite game works. Our candidates can only get elected when people know what they stand for. But it's getting harder and harder to pin down what Democrats actually stand for besides being against BuchCo.

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  •  Well Said (4.00 / 9)

    Great post.  Extremely well put.

    And I absolutley love the line "Hating Bush is not enough to win the war against the extremists in our country."

    Fantastic!  Hope this can get recommended up to the top so everyone can read it.

    •  We're for the people (4.00 / 2)

      not the powerful.

      Old Man McCain.com - the best anti-McCain blog on the web!

      by existenz on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:44:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Harry Reid (4.00 / 4)

        laid it all out as the "nuclear option" was being threatened. Here's what he had to say and I think it speaks to what we should be uniting around:

        (It showed up in a story long ago on Kos but the search function seems to be down. Here's the link to Reid's press release

         http://reid.senate.gov/record2.cfm?id=236871

        Democrats Moving Forward With Promise Of America Agenda

        Monday, April 25, 2005

        WASHINGTON, DC - As Senate Republicans move closer to a partisan power grab that deals less with substance and more with right wing politics, Democrats are ready to move forward with an agenda that addresses the concerns of regular Americans throughout the nation.

        Invoking a little-known Senate procedure called Rule XIV, the Democrats put nine bills on the Senate calendar that seek to help America fulfill its promise.

        "Across the country, people are worried about things that matter to their families - the health of their loved ones, their child's performance in schools, and those sky high gas prices," said Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid. "But what is the number one priority for Senate Republicans? Doing away with the last check on one-party rule in Washington to allow President Bush, Senator Frist and Tom Delay to stack the courts with radical judges. If Republicans proceed to pull the trigger on the nuclear option, Democrats will respond by employing existing Senate rules to push forward our agenda for America."

        Democrats have introduced bills that address America's real challenges.

           1. Women's Health Care. "The Prevention First Act of 2005" will reduce the number of unintended pregnancies and abortions by increasing funding for family planning and ending health insurance discrimination against women.
           2. Veterans' Benefits. "The Retired Pay Restoration Act of 2005" will assist disabled veterans who, under current law, must choose to either receive their retirement pay or disability compensation.
           3. Fiscal Responsibility. Democrats will move to restore fiscal discipline to government spending and extend the pay-as-you-go requirement.
           4. Relief at the Pump. Democrats plan to halt the diversion of oil from the markets to the strategic petroleum reserve. By releasing oil from the reserve through a swap program, the plan will bring down prices at the pump.
           5. Education. Democrats have a bill that will: strengthen head start and child care programs, improve elementary and secondary education, provide a roadmap for first generation and low-income college students, provide college tuition relief for students and their families, address the need for math, science and special education teachers, and make college affordable for all students .
           6. Jobs. Democrats will work in support of legislation that guarantees overtime pay for workers and sets a fair minimum wage.
           7. Energy Markets. Democrats work to prevent Enron-style market manipulation of electricity.
           8. Corporate Taxation. Democrats make sure companies pay their fair share of taxes to the U.S. government instead of keeping profits overseas.
           9. Standing with our troops. Democrats believe that putting America's security first means standing up for our troops and their families.

        "Abusing power is not what the American people sent us to Washington to do. We need to address real priorities instead -- fight for relief at the gas pump, stronger schools and lower health care costs for America's families," said Senator Reid.

        I know it's a rather full agenda, but for us to be effective I agree we do need to speak with one voice, and Harry conveniently gave us the talking points IMHO.

        Comforting the Afflicted and Afflicting the Comfortable Whenever Possible

        by RevDeb on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:07:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, I like that (none / 1)

        Do you mind if I use that as my new sig line? I tried to credit you with the line through a link,

        "Big tents are for congregating, not consolidating. - Existenz"

        But this is how it came out in the sig line:

        "Big tents are for congregating, not consolidating. - Existenz (http)://www.dailykos.com/comments/2005/7/9/122757/7746/107#107"

        Apparently we can't do linked text in the sig lines anymore.

  •  Good rant! (4.00 / 5)

    Were you here for the Primaries?  Now that was rock 'em sock 'em!  I stormed out one nite & slammed the door.

    IMHO, Dems are a large, loud family, who will defend each other to the pain or the death, from others,  but fighting amongst ourselves is almost genetic.

    •  pssst.... (none / 0)

      check your email.

      When the oak is felled the whole forest echoes with its fall, but a hundred acorns are sown in silence by an unnoticed breeze. -Thomas Carlyle

      by Caldonia on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:42:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well... (none / 0)

      if it hadn't been for the dumb shits who voted for Kerry, maybe we wouldn't have Bush now.  The reason there's infighting here is because there are a lot of dumb people on this site.  Just because they're on the left doesn't mean they're smart, it just means they're less moronic than your average Republican.  

      Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

      by Asak on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:08:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Excellent! (4.00 / 4)

    Recommended, and please post a tip jar!

    "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a democrat."--Will Rogers

    by soonergrunt on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 09:37:12 AM PDT

  •  Absolutely agree (4.00 / 22)

    And this will probably get me troll-rated into oblivion, but ...

    I think a lot of lberals and leftists are just plain spoiled brats. There's way too much ME!! ME!!! MEEEE FIRST!!! , way way way too much I AM EXTRAORDINARILY BRILLIANT AND SENSITIVE AND WILL NOW PROVE IT BY SEMIOTIC ANALYSISIZING YOUR POST INTO OBLVION!!!!

    No room for plumbers. No room for anyone else, really.

    No desire for compromise. No understanding that it really does take two to tango, in every imaginable way.

    No comprehension that so and so may have made it to the front page because maybe they deserve it? No acceptance that so and so might be on the front page because maybe they can put in the hard hours, maybe they possess the analytical skills, the ability to both lump and split info --- maybe they're really good at what they do?

    The jealousy, the ME ME!! MEEEEE!! MEEEEEE!!!!, etc. is so far beyond tiresome and destructive. It's childish.

    James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

    by cookiebear on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 09:41:25 AM PDT

    •  True, but replace the word liberals (4.00 / 2)

      with the word americans. Things are no easier anywhere else.

      (-2.5, -4.3) Meta-Buddha is not perturbed. All will scroll away, as it should. --melvin

      by BrianK on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:04:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Replace it with the word (4.00 / 3)

        "humans." Except for the Albanians.

        Today's Special: Chickenhawk, slow-baked in its mother's basement.

        by Earl on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:22:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  then replace "Americans"... (4.00 / 4)

        ... with the word "people".

        But... Americans, in particular, are angry. And those of us who populate DKos are as well spread along the bell curve of anger as the rest of the population. Guess what happens when angry people, even those ostensibly on the same side, start interacting with one another... fights and angry postings!

        I'm not particularly angry (sad is a better adjective for how I feel), but while I understand the sentiments of the diary I can't fully support them. Do we support the free market of ideas or not? It's one thing to troll rate those who use abusive language, but another thing entirely to wring our hands over conflict.

        Like a lot of us, I have mixed feeling about the recent bannings over "conspiracy theories", but that wasn't about conflict. Kos is right in that this movement can't help but be tarred by the association with wild speculation. MoveOn has been unfairly tarred by the Hitler video nonsense, and Kos doesn't want Dkos tarred by those who make inflammatory (and unsubstantiated) claims. But that doesn't have anything to do with conflict between members.

        So... when I stumble into a diary that's devolved into a pissing match I hit the "back" button on my browser, but I'm happy that the arguers have a forum to express themselves. I'd rather Kossacks (and freepers, for that matter) have a place to work out some of the aggression before they get in their cars and drive in my neighborhood.

        Change the channel - don't kill the freedom.

        barn's burnt down; now i can see the moon - Basho

        by sfgary on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:33:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Replace the esoterica with more primal concerns... (4.00 / 8)

          If your 'product' is hitting tough going in the marketplace, the answer is not to decry stupid consumers or the lack of people willing and inclined to evaluate your competition's lousy ingredients. It's to ask:

          What am I doing wrong here?

          How am I getting at cross-purposes with my intended consumer?

          In this thread there seems to be a certain level of self-examination and honesty available. Excellent. Many of the concerns that democratic leadership or narrow-focus progressive groups tout seem to be awfully high up Maslows heirarchy of needs to the avergae Joe and Jane. D's are often better situated economically and/or educationally than many R's. That natural demographic has consequences when relating to the wider world of potential converts: We have not affrimed--or, rather, lost touch with--that base of the pyramid.

          1. Self-actualization
          2. Esteem
          3. Love
          4. Safety
          5. Physiological

          I'm sure I'm being reduntant here, but the progression of needs is what maslow called prepotent--first things first, do not pass go till 1 is satisfied, then on to 2 etc and so forth. Many discussions of environment and things viewed as personal choice (Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc) over community good (Safety, security, Nafta/Cafta) are often viewed as the selfish "haves" or "elite" presuming to take away what little the so-called "have-nots" DO have. (Yeah, it's a ridiculous argument: We're Americans, which means, at least if you ask the average Indonesian or Kenyan or Honduran, we're ALL "haves.")

          .
          Disclaimer: I didn't say it had to follow logic or make rational sense - that's part of our problem: Most people, D or R, don't use empirical means to make many of the most important decisions in their life. That's one of the myths that the modern age and professional credentials has lulled us into believing. Rationalization is cover for emotional commitments implicit in our role as a D or R or an accountant or a dad or fighter pilot. (Look back at Clinton/Lewinsky and the feminist quiesence on the power/hostile work environment dynamic there, or count all the 'enlightened' CA women who voted for serial groper Arnold.)

          We're talking about group id and self-image and the dissonance between the two here--people divvying up sides based on gut and feel, not footnotes and fact. This is reptile brain stuff, non-verbal and instinctive. "Two Americas" was correct, in more ways than one.  

          Look at the blind and reactive nature of many R's when it comes to 9/11. They felt surprise and threat; many D's felt surprise, maybe, some threat, perhaps, but also some causal curiosity and wonder about inevitable effect. You could launch a year of seminars. All very logical and, as we know around here, very footnotable. And also very high up the pyramid--not first things first; NOT as animal-like as the threat/revenge response.

          A gulf, even. What that boils down to is that R's recoiled and retreated to their identity as Americans first and endorsed swinging a very big bat, taking great pleasure in describing "why" they must pay and not much in the "how" of planning or balance. The media loved the simplistic cleaving of antagonist and protagonist. Whereas, possibly many D's saw a flatter landscape of human conflict and sought reasons "why" and, also, more collaborative, logical answers as to "how" we must avoid another occurrence.

          Soft or hard? Higher brain or limbic? We see the same in urban centers here: Fort Apache, the Bronx versus Community Policing. In Iraq.

          This thread illustrates how group ID prevails. Kossacks will splinter just like the humans they are. Absolutists and pragmatists at each other for  reasons of form and style and priority in often counter-productive ways to the larger--and seemingly opaque--democratic goal. We're safe, relatively speaking, recent events notwithstanding. In a way, we've got too much time to contemplate our navels because the threats of R overreaching and hubris are still somewhat abstract and, truth be told, not irreversible in historical terms, whatever they do.

          I'll stop with all the practicing shrinkology without a license except to say, an older R of some note once said something that rings very true:

          "A lack of options clears the mind marvelously" - Henry Kissinger.

          There you have it, fellow Democrats: Too many choices. What smart marketers would call choice paralysis. A shelf full of undifferentiated mush, all claiming "premium." Time to narrow down, readdress and refresh the newly reclaimed must-have imperatives and their language and appeal, and pull the trigger. But you have to decide. Are you selling detergent? Or cleaner clothes?  Or the affirmation of positive self-image--'quality parenthood' and providing a good home?  

          And please, don't get caught up in the marketing example. We are no different, self-image wise and group-affinity wise than when Lincoln appealled to  "the better angels of our nature" or JFK told us to "ask not."  Voters want to like themselves, to feel larger than life and symbolically good about their place in this world. Absent that, they'll take what they can just to get them through. And forfeit's still a win, isn't it? Forfeit is still a win.

      •  Why does everyone always (none / 0)

        copycat me?

        (-2.5, -4.3) Meta-Buddha is not perturbed. All will scroll away, as it should. --melvin

        by BrianK on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:18:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  What do the Repubs call it? (4.00 / 8)

      Elitism.  We can, myself included, be awfully smug and elitist.

      Ready for my big wishful thinking dream?  

      I would love to see all of us on the left coordinate days of silence.  When we disappear all together.  Kos goes dead.  Blogs go dead.  Sites dead.  We don't post on sites we normally do.  We just stay mum.  Random days. And we offer no explanation.  Perhaps a few times we throw in weeks.  Perhaps a month.

      What's my reasoning?

      Let the bastards kill themselves.

      Will it ever happen?

      Logistically and utterly impossible.

      •  Yeah... (none / 0)

        I know...I'm crazy.
      •  I would just love to see (none / 1)

        all of us on the left coordinate on anything!

        Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

        by drewfromct on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:37:59 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Coordination (4.00 / 2)

          One of the reasons the right is able to project their message with so much force is that they all sing the same note, thus every voice adds to the volume.

          Those of us not on the right- Dems, indies, greens et.al. sing in a chorus- and while the multi-parts may sometimes be in harmony, and beautiful, it all too often descends into a trainwreck of everyone singing their own tune, and in many different keys. Which is what we have now.

          'cause we each have our own taste in music, it's hard to agree on a director- many even prefer no director at all, as that would stifle independence, creativity, oh, the horrors!

          So, what to do? I humbly offer a few suggestions to be shot down, dissected or ignored, or not:

          First, identify a common enough theme meme most of us can sign on to. Accept that our diverse nature precludes unanymity. Accept it. Move on.

          Second- agree to, at least on occasion, sing the lyrics of someone else's song, or at least remain silent while they're singing- we can worry about those things after the thugs have been drummed out of office.

          Third, and maybe most important, stop worrying about and pointing out every conceivable flaw on someone else's position. We're all human, all imperfect. That we strive to be better should carry more weight than the details of what we might have missed or gotten wrong. Until we're back in power, it just doesn't matter.

          you were sick, but now you're well again and there's work to do- vonnegut

          by zzyzx on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:37:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Extreme unity of message... (none / 0)

            only works in a feudal society, like the ones the Republicans are trying to recreate.  They all say the same thing because the underlings don't think, they just repeat whatever their masters say.  It's not something that we should attempt to emulate, or even want to.  

            Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

            by Asak on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:11:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I already do this! (4.00 / 9)

        There was a time especially right around the election and right afterward that I was on all the time. There is so much negativity still that I just turn off the computer and walk away once in awhile. I didn't do this on my own either. I was physically ill for over a month back in January and my son thought it could be stress related and that maybe just maybe it was time to take a break from cspan, the blogs, the political emails from every left organisation that had me on their lists due to signing just about every petition that came out.
        The amazing thing was he was right. I started to feel better(physically) and eventually mentally and all. We need to be engaged but we also must be active on the local and state levels. I am learning to channel that energy toward more positive things. I hope we can all do the same.
        This is an excellent diary and recommend it very highly. If I could I would rate it a 10!

        Frodo failed....Bush has got the ring!

        by Alohaleezy on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:13:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is beautiful (4.00 / 2)

          I was the same way and am still battling with the urge to be online all the time.  During the election I played in a marching band put together to protest Bush, went to benefits, fundraisers, passed out this and that, and all the rest.  And when I wasn't doing that, I was online on left- and right-wing blogs...arguing, posting, plotting.  

          It's hard to walk away and it's so nice to hear you did and found more positive ways to make an impact.  Positive for your mental and physical health, as well as for all of us.

          Thanks for writing that. You are an inspiration to me.

          much peace!

          •  It's very difficult (none / 1)

            but for all our sakes, as you said, we need to decompress once in awhile. With all the crap coming out of the WH these days it is hard not to be constantly in outrage overload. I started working out with a trainer to try to get rid of my desk butt and couch belly. Walking at least five mornings a week too. I get a really great pace going if I let all that pent up anger out on my walk...lol.
            Peace to all and have a great weekend. Too nice to be indoors. I'm outa here.

            Frodo failed....Bush has got the ring!

            by Alohaleezy on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:01:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I don't feel that way at all. (none / 0)

      Corporate Media: Republicans are their base.

      by lecsmith on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:08:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just to take it a bit further... (4.00 / 15)

      ...I have also noticed a near-absolute unwillingness to accept incremental change.  In the real world, it's always better to take the "half a loaf" and go on, recognizing in the process that any further improvement goes forward from there, not from where things were before.  And the funny-sad thing is, when it's "all or nothing" it's far, far easier to end up with nothing.

      I suspect much of this comes from a bit too much of the ivory tower and a bit too little of the shop floor.  And for people who claim to be concerned with "people" - and sadly, too often it's just as an abstraction, many on the left show an amazing indifference to anyone's concerns save their own.  This is the stuff of the Republican side, folks, not ours.

      Then again, for a bit of historical perspective -  and with my graying hair and beard, I get to do that now and again - Will Rogers did once say "I'm not a member of any organized political party.  I'm a Democrat!"

      •  True (4.00 / 7)

        I think of that Will Rogers quote anytime I see a big ol' fight break out here.

        But I do believe there is a legitimate concern with the "half a loaf" approach - it seems to be a constant refrain to justify the absence of a long-term strategy.

        I guess it depends on the specific issue, but I tend to think accepting incremental change only works when you have a broader strategy and then you know how your compromise can help the overall strategy effort.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:19:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  a bit further (4.00 / 9)

        I agree.  It may not just be liberal as much as youthful exuberance.  As a member of the League of Women Voters who has put in long hours trying to get "clean elections", instant runoff voting, voter education on issues, mail in ballots, writing for our publications on these issues  and many other reforms to make voters more powerful, I often see some brash participants march in and DEMAND change.  It doesn't work that way, unfortunately.  I have been disappointed many times and have wanted to quit, but I am a real progrssive/liberal and I won't give up.  But like you, the graying hair does add a perspective.

        Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

        by hairspray on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:29:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  oh god yes (4.00 / 3)

        the never ending "ideologically pure vs. snowball's chance in hell of winning" debate.

        forgive me, i'm a capricorn; we're practical to a !@#$%& fault.  if toeing the strict ideological line keeps us in minoritydom, i'll take my half a loaf, thank you.  rome wasn't built in a day and we're not going to wake up after the next election cycle with the dream team government.  

        don't get me wrong; i love dreamers and believers and those of eternal optimism - indeed, the world would be one mightily crappy place without them.  but some people are called "realists" for a reason, and they are just as important in the world scheme.

        there's my $0.02 - who's got my change?

        : p

        "Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise." Thomas Paine, Common Sense

        by Cedwyn on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:38:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Heee! (4.00 / 6)

          forgive me, i'm a capricorn; we're practical to a !@#$%& fault.

          I say that all the time and I think astrology is total bullshit. Quoth my bride: "Well of course you think it's bullshit; you're a Capricorn!"

          I think the diarist is about 105% correct here. The problem with the left is that we believe in personal freedom, sometimes to a rather inconvenient extent. And most of us here are activists and are drawn to oppose the régime for different reasons, most of which are valid. So how do we decide which issues are the most important? And which ones are least likely to cost us the votes of middle-of-the-road voters who decide elections?

          The central issue is twofold: one, our politicians are either so timid and bland as to be uninspiring or so attached to a particular issue as to drive away voters who are not so attached; and two, our politics work as an uneasy coalition of interest groups rather than a basic set of principles that appeal to people's emotions as well as to their intellect.

          I'd like to see people like us going to union meetings instead of sitting here in our echo chamber. I'd like to see us figure out ways to capture the enthusiasm of people who are too busy to follow politics much. And I want to see us create a fucking media network, as just being out there opposing the endless lies of the Republicans will bring us a long way back toward where we belong.

          I believe that was three cents, but thanks for reading.

          •  Hotel Reality (none / 0)

            The version of this that I've been seeing is people SO determined that their point of view is correct that they actually don't deal with REALITY. I went to a political meeting a while back and someone said they had written a letter to Dianne Feinstein complaining that she voted for Priscilla Owen....but she didn't vote for Priscilla Owen...she voted to end debate, then she voted against the nomination. I said so, and several people jumped on me complaining about other votes....that she hadn't made.... There is so much anger against Feinstein, presumably for her war vote that people don't even check into Hotel Reality about her. People think that she is so bad that she's behind in the polls in California and is in danger of losing a Democratic seat in CA. But she doesn't even have an opponent yet. It's the most frustrating phenomenon. People are on rails and they are unwilling to check into Hotel Reality.  VERY dangerous.

            "Why can't you and the idea of separation of powers just hug it out, bitch?" Wonkette

            by Hollywood Liberal on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 05:54:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely agree (none / 1)

        Completely. Absolutely. Totally.

        Anyone who has ever built anything, raised anything, written anything or otherwise participated in life in any creative wat knows that nothing springs forth from nothing.

        James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

        by cookiebear on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:50:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Will Rogers Mantra (4.00 / 5)

        "I'm not a member of any organized political party.  I'm a Democrat!"

        1. Repeat three times when someone on dailykos pisses you off.
        2. Take a deep breath and then hit the reply button.
        3. Try to reply with compassionate debate and fact rather than anger and outrage.  
        4. If you are really mad, pose a question instead of a rant just to make sure you have their position right.
        5. If you have to let 'em have it just take a minute to imagine receiving your response yourself.  

        I try anyway...
        •  I always try (none / 1)

          6. Wait about 12 hours between typing the rant/flame and sending it. It's remarkable how often stuff that seemed really clever and à propos turns into juvenile flame-fanning.
          •  Six is very good and (none / 1)

            I forgot the other one which I guess might be seven: Assume that the person you are responding to is a friend not a foe - unless you are sure they are a troll...
          •  My favorite tactic (4.00 / 3)

            Start out with an angry reply. Vent freely.

            Start thinking of ways to really pump the rhetoric up. Blow right by Godwin's Law. What just another vet said isn't just treason against humanity, it is responsible for the presence of evil in the world! (At this point, if this was a conservative blog, you'd hit Post.)

            Keep going, until you're either so consumed in trying to outdo your last sentence that you've forgotten to be angry, or you're laughing too hard to type.

            Select All. Delete. If you've got a few lines you think are keepers, save them to a file first.

            If you still have something to say, say it. Otherwise, move on.

            No laws but Liberty. No king but Conscience.

            by oldjohnbrown on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:52:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I seem to recall... (4.00 / 5)

      ...Kos making a comparison between left and right activist groups.  The right go lockstep and take their cues from above, but the left groups are usually focused on their own specific issues at the exclusion of all others.

      But he also mentioned a new generation of democratic activists that want to work for the greater good not just for their pet causes (and pet egos).

      we'll see where it takes us.  I'm cautiously optimistic.  but then I'm cautiously optimistic about everything. :)

      You are entitled to express your opinion. But you are NOT entitled to agreement.

      by DawnG on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:10:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'll second that (4.00 / 3)

    You've expressed what I suspect a lot of us have been thinking lately.  I'm doing my bit by posting less and reading more.  One thing, without TU status, I'm actually happier.  I don't need to see the uglier side of Dkos

    Right-wingers who clamor for war and oppose universal health care are not "pro-life" and don't get to say they're "pro-life." It's a lie. Night Train

    by peterborocanuck on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 09:48:38 AM PDT

    •  TU status (none / 0)

      Please explain.

      Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

      by hairspray on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:31:12 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  TU status (none / 1)

        overblown IMO.  TU is when a poster has been here a while (unknown time) and their comments receive generally favorable (3/4) ratings, they are given TU status allowing them to rate O on other comments that offend or are counterproductive.  This is usually in the eye of the beholder, but sometimes we agree.

        Also TU allows one to actually see the comments that have been hidden by being given too many O's.  Reading that swear filled list is really not any fun anyway, but sometimes it is needed to review a person's commenting history to ascertain the true leanings of the possible troll.  

        Again, overblown me thinks.  Now if we could rate diaries as being useful, or not, TU would achieve general-like status.

      •  'Trusted User' (none / 0)

        See more here

        One's status increases when posts get high ratings from other users.  With TU status (which I don't personally have at the moment), you get additional ratings powers.

  •  Maybe it's the things I choose to read (none / 1)

    but by and large my experience here has been extremely collegial.  Every time someone references a "flame war" I realize I've missed it entirely!  I think on this one I'll be blissfully ignorant.

    Nice post - I hope it goes far to dissuade what appears to be a growing combative tone.  We have neither the time nor the resources to be fighting each other.

  •  Same applies to rightwing sites (4.00 / 2)

    At least lately.

    Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

    by Scarce on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:08:30 AM PDT

  •  instead... (4.00 / 3)

    ...go write a letter to the editor, or call your congressman.
    that'll help blow off some steam.
  •  I tend to agree (3.93 / 16)

    I've noticed a marked increase in infighting over the last 6 months. I'm sure I've written about this here before, but I think you are mostly right in identifying a general trend.

    I think it comes from the shock of losing in 2004, and a total lack of idea of how to move forward. The thing that has really saddened me, and given me major concern about our future, is our lack of a long-term planning effort. We all seemed to spend 2003 and 2004 insisting that the Democratic Party needed a thorough overhaul. But after Kerry's nomination a lot of that seemed to go through the window, and especially after his defeat.

    There seems to be no real effort here anymore to build for the long haul. Most folks feel that they can find the magic weakness in Bush's armor - that the achilles heel is somewhere - and that if we just get the right scandal, the right issue, we can bring the whole thing down.

    Which may be true, but all that would accomplish is the replacement of Bush with some other conservative. We are witnessing the implementation of a wingnut political system, one that will definitely last a generation and could survive as long as the New Deal order - roughly 45 years. Things that are happening now may well define the way we live the rest of our lives.

    And yet we spend our time here engaged in infighting, a downward spiral, as nobody seems interested in creative long-range planning. In fact, it is that kind of aimlessness and directionlessness that has me so worried.

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
    Neither is California High Speed Rail

    by eugene on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:11:05 AM PDT

    •  I agree (3.75 / 4)

      with the total lack of idea of how to move forward. We bitch, write diaries and LTE's, but it seems that very little action is actually taken.  Maybe there is just so much to take on coming from the other side that we sit here in overwhelm.

      And yes, there has been some excellent investigation and reporting done by some extremely talented Kossacks which has started some forward movement with Congress.  I am not ignoring that at all.  However, nothing else seems to be happening.  Maybe there is more out there and I'm just not seeing it.  If there is, feel free to let me know.

      I guess my main question is - how do we get the masses to care about the tragedies that are going on?  Maybe some brainstorming diaries where we can put all our ideas into one pot and come up with something we can do - visibly - on a national level and on a regular basis.  Maybe we can set up groups that each take on different aspects of what BushCo is doing so the tasks are smaller and more manageable as far as investigating and reporting.  Maybe coming up with our own news site.

      I don't know. I'm just tired of being pissed and not having an outlet other than crying over almost every one of Rub's Iraq diaries.

      •  See, I disagree (3.85 / 7)

        You say:

        how do we get the masses to care about the tragedies that are going on?  Maybe some brainstorming diaries where we can put all our ideas into one pot and come up with something we can do - visibly - on a national level and on a regular basis.  Maybe we can set up groups that each take on different aspects of what BushCo is doing so the tasks are smaller and more manageable as far as investigating and reporting.

        Now I think such things are necessary. Problem is, too many people think they are sufficient to defeat the Republicans and restore Democratic ascendancy and liberal ideas in America. And it is not.

        What I think is the problem is that we have all begun to assume that if we can somehow get Americans to get upset at what Bush is doing, they'll then magically fall out of their collective stupor and turn to the Democrats with open arms without us having to do anything else.

        And that's simply not how it works. If Americans get annoyed with Bush but not with conservatism, and if they don't overcome their deepening hostility to liberalism, then taking down Bush will accomplish nothing. In fact it might accomplish worse than nothing if the conservatives are able to replace him with someone less overtly odious.

        So that's my point - taking on Bush is vital, but we can't expect that to overturn the conservative tide, and too many folks think it will. I hope you don't take this as a personal attack - you're just providing an opportunity for me to make a point.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:43:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a good point (4.00 / 4)

          and I am not even close to seeing it as an attack as you didn't write it as one.  You are right - I am thinking along too narrow a line.

          So what do we do?  How do we get people to see what what we stand for?  Do we start with defining the party? And who decides on those definitions?

          Do we hold current Democrat office holders feet to the fire if they don't stand up for Dem values?

          Do we, instead, focus on getting "real" Democrats elected in 2006?

          Not trying to take you to task or put you on the spot - because I do agree with you.  I am just looking for something I can get involved in to actually bring about that change.

          •  We figure out what values we share (none / 1)

            and for the moment - when possible - forget about differences.

            I think there are a lot more commonalities than people realize.  But the discussion has to be elevated beyond single issues before we can really see and comprehend the connections we share.

  •  I've noticed a trend of more diaries about (4.00 / 6)

    personalities and fewer about issues.  While Plamegate, Delay's ethics, Bush's BS,etc., etc. are important, do we really need 30 or 40 diaries about each of these everyday.  Many diaries just express an opinion with little or no sourcing,  analysis, or new information.  An opinion that could have easily been posted as a comment attached to someone elses diary.  Meanwhile the interesting diaries, the ones not simply based on personalities and who we hate, scroll off into oblivion before they can garner enough comments or recommendations to get noticed.

    Each of our opinions are important, but do they really deserve a whole diary?

    How about more diaries that are issue not personality oriented.  Healthcare, Endangered Species, Sprawl, Civil Rights, Aids, etc., etc.

    IMHO, perhaps we should try to define ourselves by what we believe, the solutions we offer, and not just who we hate (as much as they do deserve it).

    •  Case in point (4.00 / 11)

      Steven D wrote an excellent diary about an important policy shift in funding for US companies working overseas on AIDS prevention measures.  Total of 8 comments last time I looked.  Had he titled his diary "The Dumbing Down of DailyKos by User 35187 Who is a MoonBat Moron," perhaps this important work would have garnered more attention.

      I think you and the diarist are right in that we need to get our eyes back on the ball.  

      •  good point GN (none / 0)

        I agree!

        The one thing we know about the McCain campaign...is that they're very good at negative campaigns, they're not so good at governing- Barack Obama

        by wishingwell on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:43:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If possible... (none / 0)

        GN just earned a "10".

        Republicans are afflicted by CHIDS-Chronic Humor and Irony Deficit Syndrome, pronounced 'kids' with a parental sigh.

        by stumpy on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:14:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Good titles are needed (3.66 / 3)

        I posted this on Hunter's thread, but I need to say it again.  I am a newbie with dial up and I don't know how to choose good diaries unless the title tells me specifically what I am getting.  I nearly overlooked this excellent one because of that.

        Be as specific as you can be in the title, PLEASE.

        I, too, missed the wars, but this seems like a really good important place compared to the lack of info in the media.

        IMHO we need a safe place to talk when we live in the rural areas of the world...yes, the world!

        Maybe talking seems unproductive to some, but it is vital to me to stay alive.  Silence is killing me.  From here, I can go forward with real news and framing to help me.

        THANKS!!!  

        Join us at Bookflurries: Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

        by cfk on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:26:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I couldn't agree more. (4.00 / 5)

      Some days I just want to go into each repeat diary and ask why they wouldn't post their info in one of the multiple diaries already up on the same topic. I don't because I have to be calm enough to post and I know it wouldn't matter. Plus, they would say that they didn't see the original diary, completely missing the point the reason they missed it was all the repeat diaries. Ah sweet irony how it makes my head explode.

      I often don't catch a diary until hours after it was posted and by then even if I responded no one would read it (posted in a global warming diary like this last night). How can we progress when we can't even have a conversation about anything except some heated exchange about the topic du jour.

      I know its part of the nature of blogs but I just had to vent.

    •  I think it's about organization (4.00 / 2)

      I've said this a few times through email and in comments but I think people would address general topics on this site if it were organized that way. If there were two recommended diaries allowed for each specific topic I think we would all benefit. Plus people who want to know what progressives stand for on different issues could do it easily. I've never been all that pleased with the search and sorting functions.

      There are other benefits for organizing it by agenda issues - (1) people can go to their pet projects and share all the personal stories they want so maybe cut down on all the personal diaries (2) it will motivate some lurkers who don't write diaries because their interest is on an issue that won't likely get recommended because it's not a news story, (3) it will help spread out the opportunties to be heard on this massive site, (4) it will help everyone feel like their issues are important to the progressive agenda, and (5) it will give us a chance to more easily see what the common link is between political issues. Not only that but we can find the issues where we are more likely to agree and what we should focus on for elections. I know we're only a small portion of the population but we are diverse. We can't be everything for everyone but there are some issues that we can agree on.

      Plus some things get lost in the shuffle because we can't be looking in all directions. So while we may be looking at Terrorism because that's what the press is worried about, we don't notice that they're passing laws restricting our freedom or taking funds away from programs that have proven to help.

      I wrote about how for me the progressive agenda is about providing "Quality of Life" and not just "Life". For me it's the perfect frame for everything progressive - only not very many people read that diary...

      •  I have an idea (4.00 / 6)

        I love your idea and hope that kos implements it or something similar. But what can we do in the mean time or if it doesn't happen for whatever reason? Here's my idea (off top of head so bear with me):

        • People who feel strongly about certain issues sign up to be Issue Guides.

        • Weekly they post a diary called Issue Guide: Global Warming (or whatever issue they signed up for).

        • In their guide they provide links to GOOD diaries on their issue. Others can post comments with links/reviews on new diaries on those issues as they happen. Or they can add a quick comment on an interesting article (doesn't have to be diaried)

        • Following week they post a new list of diaries (they can use links people gave them in comments and the search engine to find them).

        • They could also keep a Best of or Required Reading list of the absolute best diaries.

        • Every diary would be easily found by searching diaries for "Issue Guide:"

        And although your plan is better and would make my plan unnecessary, we don't have to wait for others to take action with mine. We could do it now.
      •  I've also suggested this to Kos. (none / 1)

        This would mean important topic specific diaries could get the attention they deserve.  Take a look at TPMCafe as a model of this approach.

        I have diaried ESA issues, which many folks here feel are important, but most of these diaries get swamped by the massive volume of diaries each day before the 5% (I'm quessing) of folks who are interested in this issue get a chance to see them.  Since I spend up to three hours on a diary, this situation leaves me with little motivation to continue diarying on this topic.

  •  I always post this (4.00 / 12)

    When a thread like this comes up but I'll do it again.  The left agenda needs to be a simple, inspiring list of talking (OK, screaming) points

    1. Alternative energy and climate change.

    2. Universal Health Care.

    3. Education reform (equal funding of all schools, stomping the creationist crazies once and for all so we can teach kids real science again).

    4. Stem cell research and massive funding of science generally.

    5. Scaling back the military, ending the empire and bringing the troops home.

    I didn't put abortion on the list because I feel that the important thing to do now is to come up with policies that contrast with those of the right in that unlike right wing policies, they will actually work.  Abortion pro or con is not such a policy. Having good schools, health care, mass transit, energy that doesn't come from places where people want to kill us; these are things that affect people's daily lives in big ways.  If we show that liberalism works while conservatism does not, we will discredit and humiliate the right and that is the key to ridding ourselves of their poisonous moralizing about women, gays, sex, and families as well.

    Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

    by Event Horizon on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:19:37 AM PDT

    •  You almost had me (4.00 / 9)

      But I really strongly disagree that we can cut out the social issues. Happily, we have an excellent frame for that one:

      6. Respecting the absolute right to privacy and full equality of the individual.

      I don't know if I'm simply contributing to the dissent or not, but then again this is a sort of discussion about long-term issues that we need to have more of. I just don't think we can ignore the social issues. They matter and they matter to a lot of people - and most Americans support us on them. We can't ignore it. And you won't neutralize those social issues by having a focus on "issues that work." Instead we need to have both.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
      Neither is California High Speed Rail

      by eugene on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:26:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not cutting out (4.00 / 2)

        We should not cut out social issues but making them the center of the sales pitch is not going to work.  We should remain pro choice but the focus must be on issues of economic and societal survival - and that is just what it is.  The right's policies are a threat to the existence of the human race, never mind the US.

        Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

        by Event Horizon on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:07:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You're fine (none / 1)

        when you frame it as a general principle like that. People will read into it what they will. It's when you start saying things like "abortion on demand" that you get in trouble, not because there's sth wrong with it, but because it's easy to pick apart.

        It's the secret of Republican success; their "principles" are all incredibly vague.

    •  Issues related to work security. (4.00 / 3)

      Or economic security. It may not be obvious yet, but we are heading toward a big change in relative wealth and poverty. There are going to be a lot more Americans who slip into poverty in the next five to ten years. The middle class is being attacked in several different ways--with cuts in wages and benefits, but also in cuts to programs that have made education and social mobility possible.

      Also, a big problem for the Democrats is that they don't articulate a security policy that is convincing. I actually thought that John Kerry had a well-developed, muscular, multi-lateral foreign policy, but of course he was ridiculed for being too French. I don't think in the near term the idea of reducing the military will succeed as a discussion point. This is essentially Dennis Kucinich's position (whom I like very much) but it wouldn't be taken seriously.

      Corporate Media: Republicans are their base.

      by lecsmith on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:36:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not really Kucinich's position (none / 1)

        Dennis is keenly interested in slashing the military's budget, but not to reduce its capabilities. He sees a great deal of pork, a lack of accountability and rampant disorganization (remember the fiasco during the anthrax scare where the armed forces couldn't locate most of their hazmat suits?) a lot of initiatives and technologies which are as expensive as they are ineffectual, and so forth.

        He wants those gone, the armed forces run efficiently, and in possession of equipment designed primarily to be useful, not to be a favor to some campaign contributor.

        Needless to say, he could think of a lot of uses for the money saved, although Bush's exploding deficits have probably dampened his enthusiasm somewhat...

        No laws but Liberty. No king but Conscience.

        by oldjohnbrown on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 02:01:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  On Dennis K... (4.00 / 2)

          Dennis is keenly interested in slashing the military's budget, but not to reduce its capabilities. He sees a great deal of pork, a lack of accountability and rampant disorganization

          If Dennis really thinks he can cut a significant amount of the military's budget without cutting force structure, I think he's sadly mistaken. I've been a military officer for over 18 years now, and while the military, like any organization, could use some improvement, I don't see the opportunity for really significant savings.

          (remember the fiasco during the anthrax scare where the armed forces couldn't locate most of their hazmat suits?)

          Ummm... no. Could you provide a link?

          a lot of initiatives and technologies which are as expensive as they are ineffectual, and so forth.

          Tough to respond, since you haven't listed any actual examples. What kinds of technologies are you talking about? Let's discuss one perennial favorite in advance: ballistic missile defense. Everyone loves to point out that the Army's program is in trouble, failing a number of tests. No one likes to point out that the Navy's Standard Missile-3 (SM-3) program for BMD is in great shape, having passed 5 of 6 tests, and is headed for deployment late this year or early next. Expensive? Yes. Ineffectual? No. Worth the money? That's the really good question. The money could probably be better spent on improved transportation security (as the events of this week showed all too well), but it's not fair to say the AEGIS/SM-3 system is "ineffectual".

          The BMD situation illustrates a strategy not commonly understood - for complex problems, the DoD will try multiple approaches to solve them. Some of these will work and some won't. That means that some money is going to be "wasted" following ineffective approaches. But given that there's generally no way to know in advance which approaches will work, the DoD doesn't have a lot of choice in the matter.

          He wants those gone, the armed forces run efficiently, and in possession of equipment designed primarily to be useful, not to be a favor to some campaign contributor.

          Which systems does he think were bought as a favor to campaign contributors?

          Don't get me wrong - I think that the military budget SHOULD be cut, and force structure proportionally reduced. We have WAY more capability than is needed to defeat any likely threats. I just don't see where budget cuts are going to come from without force structure cuts.

          •  Wow (none / 1)

            I wish I could dignify that reply with a similarly meaty post, but since I repeated his position as I heard it myself (i.e., not in great detail), I'll have to punt on that.

            The ballistic missile defense program was actually not on my mind. Most of what is happened long enough ago (late '90s to early '00s) that it's hard to find the information anymore.

            As to the missing hazmat suits: In September 2002, Salon published Worse than Enron, Worse than Worldcom: The Pentagon, which contains the following:


            If American military forces were to invade Iraq tomorrow, each soldier would expect, and probably be issued, protective clothing to guard against a possible chemical or biological attack. With few exceptions, that clothing would be a full-body overgarment known as Joint Services Lightweight Integrated Suit Technology, or JSLIST.

            [...]

            Since Sept. 11, with the subsequent spate of anthrax attacks in the United States and talk of terrorists using unconventional weaponry in cities or on the battlefield, numerous divisions of the military have been clamoring to get the suits, according to JSLIST program manager Douglas Bryce. From 1997 to the present, the Pentagon has purchased 1.6 million JSLIST outfits, and had distributed 1.2 million to the various services. The Defense Department plans to have 4.4 million by 2011, at a total cost of about $1 billion.

            And yet, when GAO auditors attempted to track the Pentagon's current JSLIST stockpile, they made a puzzling discovery. Despite the suits' high utility and demand, and despite the millions of dollars being invested in them, two bases in Hawaii -- one Air Force, one Navy -- had sent their JSLIST pants and jackets to a government liquidation contractor. The suits, which cost the government about $200 each, were being auctioned off on the contractor's Web site for $3 an outfit. (In fact, the $3 was higher than the initial asking price, which became artificially inflated by government investigators who bid for the items during their research.) By the time GAO auditors had brought the resales to the military's attention, over 400 units had been auctioned off the block.

            "The Defense Department's left hand knows nothing about what the right hand does," said Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, the ranking member of the Government Reform Subcommittee that had asked the GAO for its study. During a congressional hearing, he expressed astonishment with this particular instance of institutional blindness: "What I did not expect as a result of our request was to be surprised again by the severity and the starkness of the Pentagon's inability to be able to understand exactly how their own systems work and to be able to account for the very materiel which the taxpayers of the United States pay for."

            How could this happen? Although the Defense Department runs the most technologically advanced military in the world, its process for procuring, controlling and paying for an item as simple as the JSLIST suits is barely computerized and exceedingly complicated. From purchasing to deploying JSLIST, 11 Defense Department "components" must perform 128 processing steps. "Of the 128," according to the GAO, "100 -- 78 percent -- involved manual entry or reentry of data into one or more of the 13 nonintegrated data systems supporting the JSLIST processes." In plain English, that means faxes, typed memos, phone calls and other ways of conveying information that can't be easily entered into a database.

            Not surprisingly, gathering the suits for battle from their various storehouses would present an immense challenge. No one in the Pentagon hierarchy knows the exact location of the 1.2 million suits the military currently owns, because few if any of the myriad Defense Department divisions have accounting systems capable of exchanging such information. The troubling implications of this were recently demonstrated when the Pentagon proved unable to locate and recall 250,000 defective units of the JSLIST predecessor; the department "was not certain if the suits had been used, were in supply, or were sent to disposal." Today, to find all the JSLIST suits, a costly and time-consuming worldwide call would have to be put out to all corners of the military. In some cases, servicemen would have to sift through warehouses and manually dig them up. Certain bases keep absolutely no records of the suits, while others use paper or dry eraser boards to maintain their only tally, according to the GAO.

            Dennis has been on this for a while, obviously.

            The article is long since behind the NYT's for-pay firewall, but I remember a long, prominent article on a computerized system for soldiers that weighed 90 pounds—10 pounds more than the maximum acceptable load for infantry at the time, cost some ungodly amount of money, and whose network protocols were incompatible with anything else in the army. They were trying to revise the maximum load up to 90 pounds to push the program through.

            That's good enough for now, I hope. Thanks for replying.

            No laws but Liberty. No king but Conscience.

            by oldjohnbrown on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 08:50:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  That is the List of Issues not the Platform (4.00 / 12)

      The discussion of what is on the list is a separate issue all together in its own way that would be much easier if we were to discuss the platform first - what are the values of a liberal party in 21st Century America?  

      I am not talking about "values" as bastardized by the GOP, but rather what are the broad concepts that unite us?

      We have a collective liberal soul and we have failed to define how it is that we all come together in places like this and makes us come to very similar conclusions on so many issues.  

      The GOP has bested us by appearing to have a soul.  We know that it is a hollow shell, but that doesn't mean that we have the luxury of not defining what a real system of core values would look like.  

      You also can't make other people care about your particular agenda, but you can get them to believe in your vision which can lead to their agreement on your list of issues.  But you can't put the list before the framework.

      I couldn't agree more that hating Bush is a ridiculous "strategy".  

      When you create a void for people you must fill it for them or they will hang on to that which you seek to vacate.

      •  Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant (4.00 / 5)

        Fucking brilliant.

        Absolutely nailed it. We need to articulate our soul.

        Americans WANT to hear that. They WANT us to stand for something we believe in and fight for it no matter what the odds. Americans have always respected that, and it's no accident that because we've stopped doing it for the last 17 years or so, stopped defending ourselves and our ideas, that we are where we are.

        Brilliant.

        I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day
        Neither is California High Speed Rail

        by eugene on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:56:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  But people already do care. (none / 1)

        This is what I didn't go into but most of the things I mentioned, especially alternative energy and universal health care are already part of what I would call the "radical middle", that body of opinion that is widely shared and often even a majority opinion but is regarded as "outside the mainstream" by the media.  There has been majority support for univeral health care for decades but it remains off the table.  It's up to us to bring these issues forward.  At risk of sounding too Machiavelian (or is it Straussian today), advancing the issues that already matter to the people is a way of getting into power again.  Roosevelt did not get into and stay in power by advancing "soul" but through Social Security, the WPA and many other practical things to help ordinary people.  The fundies know well that people will listen more attentively to your preaching if you give them a bowl of soup first.

        Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

        by Event Horizon on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:19:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh I am not saying that people don't (none / 1)

          care at all.  I think they are all really really important and valid issues.  I am sorry to confuse.  What I am saying is that these issues need to be connected to a larger framework for understanding our democracy and our country.

          The GOP have used issues skillfully, but they have really been most successful in creating the sense that their issues fit into a greater philosophy that people feel they can latch onto.  We see the hypocrisy and disconnects inhierent in their ideology and actions, but a lot of people don't and those that do accept these inconsistencies because they agree to buy the whole enchilada.

          We need an enchilada.  I'd like ours to be a lot more honest and consistent than the GOP version, and some people believe that would be too hard so we hang onto issue-only philosophies.  I don't think so.  I think for instance that abortion and torture should be on your list as one line item.  I say this because both speak to the "value" that human beings should be in control of their own bodies not the government.

          But I am not interested in the "list" yet.  I believe that the principles need to be defined and agreed upon first.  I believe also that almost everyone's issue will show up within that framework and it should make it easier to sell these issues to the majority of the country.

        •  Roosevelt was a charismatic (4.00 / 3)

          leader - with a soul and a clearly articulated set of values.  He believed that everyone deserved a chance and he believed in America's resurection.  If that was not a soul, I don't what is.
      •  So where does this leave us (4.00 / 2)

        tomorrow when the 'best diary in ages' is scrolling off the screen?

        You're right inclusive heart that we need to start defining our core values. The rest of the agenda will follow naturally, after some fighting, pie throwing etc (not a bad thing sometimes) because basically we're all singing from the same hymn sheet. I think our REAL anger comes when we see elected officials actively campaign against the values which we hold dear.

        So then the question becomes how do we translate those values from a diary on a website into the hearts and minds of a majority of American citizens?
        Well the vehicle for that change would obviously seem to be the Democratic party, there are others, but for now let's concentrate on the main one.
        Would it not be a great idea to actually talk to the the DNC chairman online, ask him our questions, LISTEN to what he has to say, and move forward from that point. I'm sure he would be very interested to talk to the grass/net roots all over the country. 1 hour of his time talking to 100,000-300,000 influential supporters and willing listeners would seem to be time very well spent on everybody's part.
        Once those lines of communication are open and depending on feedback it could easily become a monthly event. Feedback would be much appreciated and I am sure there are some people on this site who have access to Mr. Dean.

        Common sense isn't that common - Voltaire

        by obgynlover on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:59:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You make a great point about (4.00 / 2)

          translation.  Unfortunately, I don't think Dean is our problem.  I think he is actually the greatest booster.  Our problem stems from the Bidens and Libermans of the Democratic Party.  I think a conversation with Dean might help, but I also think a lot of the work can be done here.  Once there is some sort of concensus it could be delivered to all of them for consideration.  Kos started something a while back and it devolved into a spirited debate about "rabbit trails".  It lacked structure and rules that need to be applied when you are trying to create consensus.  So it seemed to just evaporate instead of moving us forward.  I have been thinking about how to do a diary that would start the ball rolling in a constructive way.  It would require that people refrain from arguing or finding places to pick fights (which I think happens a lot lately) and instead committing to offering up their ideas as a sort of record.

          But in order to create that record it has to have a framework that I haven't quite defined in my own mind hence no diary as yet.  Then there is the other problem of scrolling off into oblivion because I'm not star quality round here.  If you have any ideas I'd certainly love to hear what you think or anyone else.  

          •  Dean certainly isn't the problem (4.00 / 2)

            but a great question to ask him would be "how do we get Biden and Lieberman etc. to STFU?"
            The talk with Dean would not be to correct him where we think he is going wrong, it would be to debate what way we should go. The control ( or lack of it) on certain key democratic representatives would be one of the main topics up for discussion.

            Common sense isn't that common - Voltaire

            by obgynlover on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:29:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes and (none / 1)

              I think we need to come to the table with some philosophical concepts - "that we hold dear" so to speak.

              I think there is a lot of "approach avoidance" around here.  Spinning on about issues, but rarely finding the greater concensus that would help us define in a non-confrontational way why we need to change some of the dealings by certain Members.

              The you go to Dean and Harry Reid and talk about political realities.  Then you go back to the drawing board and decide which "political realities" pose obstacles that you feel can be overcome and which must be left for the next fight.  I am not saying at all that we abandon anything nor am I saying I'd accept their version of political realities in toto, but it is helpful to figure out what you are up against as a matter of course in defining strategy and tactics.

              Then you tell them what MUST happen and what can wait for a time but MUST also happen and ask them to represent you.  Voila politics in action...

              •  Exactly (none / 1)

                We can type all we want but until we confront the notion that we're preaching to the choir here, it is not going to have a major impact.
                We need to be bending the ear of the leadership and we also need to STFU and listen to them as to what is actually achievable and what we can do about it. So who's up for it? Let's get our talking points down and talk to the DNC chair.

                Common sense isn't that common - Voltaire

                by obgynlover on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:19:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Like any organization (4.00 / 2)

            whether business or political, the main decisions are taken from the top.
            Looking at Dean, he seems to be the sort of individual who takes note of grassroots feeling and acts upon it. We need to be talking to the leadership directly in order to know which way we are going and what strategies we are taking to get there.
            Then, over time, analyzing these quantifiable strategies and adjusting if necessary.

            Common sense isn't that common - Voltaire

            by obgynlover on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 12:43:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  What I always post is (4.00 / 2)

      at the top of the agenda must be ELECTION REFORM.

      Iraq, the environment, social issues---NONE of what we hate about Bush would be so important if it were Gore in office today. And if we'd concentrated on the elctoral system before 2000, that would be the case. Does anyone here truly believe that W was elected by fair, honest, and legitimate means?

      Without open, honest elections, it's useless to fret over who we're gonna nominate or what issues to advocate. Without true democracy, our only options are to emigrate or pick up a weapon.

      Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

      by drewfromct on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 10:46:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed, but ... (none / 1)

        ... we would call it something like "Defense of Democracy".  Election Reform in America would be a main sub category, no question about it.

        With our man Gore in the White House, Osama wouldn't have had the opening that Bush gave him.  I truly believe that.  I think Mr. Gore loves his country more than the party or power.

        Mr. Bush has it backwards.  His actions prove that Power, Party, then Country are has touch stones, in that order.

        Is your city ready for Peak Oil?

      •  I'm afraid this is another example (none / 1)

        I'm afraid saying "at the top of the list must be Election Reform" is another example of the problem.  Are you saying the Democratic Party tagline should be "the party of Election Reform?"  Why that and not "the party of health care," or "the party of abortion rights," or "the party of X, Y, Z?"  

        Not to denigrate the importance of election reform, which by the way should be a bipartisan issue, but it's too small, too limited.  How does that unite 55 million people under a single banner?  It doesn't. It can't. It isn't compelling enough.  

        Yesterday I was going through my briefcase, and I came across a NY Times Magazine from 14 months ago (shows what happens when you're out of work). There was a fascinating article on the Bush approach to dismantling the clean air initiatives of the past 25 years.  What struck me most was the sense among the energy industry execs and lobbyists that if they could get Bush elected, everything would fall into place. Just win, baby. All your issues and needs will be taken care of.

        And that should be our focus. Find a defining and all-inclusive brand for the Democratic Party, so that we can win. In the meantime, all the election reform, abortion rights, health care, organized labor, disarmament, blah blah, yada yada, single issue people need to step back, lower their voices, and recognize that when we win, they all get to feed at the proverbial trough.

        Just win, baby.

        In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

        by Paul in Berkeley on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 11:30:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Winning isn't everything (none / 0)

          But it's close.

          There was a fascinating article on the Bush approach to dismantling the clean air initiatives of the past 25 years.  What struck me most was the sense among the energy industry execs and lobbyists that if they could get Bush elected, everything would fall into place. Just win, baby. All your issues and needs will be taken care of.

          This is actually what I was trying to say above with my "list".  The idea was to leverage from things where people are already mostly on our side (the "radical middle") to get back into power and change things.  Most people know the Republicans are wrong on health care, the environment, the greenhouse effect, energy, science policy and a lot of other things.  We need to capitalize on that.

          Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

          by Event Horizon on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:26:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What I'm saying is (none / 1)

          that without election reform, it DOES'NT MATTER what the Dems stand for. Without election reform, we stand to be out. of. power. Permanently. The war, the environment, the economy--all these issues must--temporarily--stand behind election reform because until we restore intgrity to the voting process, the rethugs will continue to control all the levers of power and there will be nothing we can do about the war, the environment, the economy, etc.

          How can this not be crystal clear to anyone is beyond me.

          And yes, election reform is and should be a bipartisan issue. It should be of supreme importance to all voters, and not just in the US. Without free, honest, and transparent voting and vote counting, democracy is nothing but a cruel, crude sham.

          Al Qeada is a faith-based initiative.

          by drewfromct on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:35:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We know what you're saying (none / 0)

            You make very compelling arguments for the importance of election reform. And the pro-choice people also make very compelling arguments. And so on, and so on.

            But it's still too specific to motivate 55 million voters.  You need to go up a level.  The Republicans don't talk specifically about euthanasia, or abortion, or pornography on TV, or gay marriage. They talk about values, in a squishy, general way. It enables individuals to imbue the general term with whatever specifics he or she pleases, and feel like everyone is rowing in synch.  

            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

            by Paul in Berkeley on Sat Jul 09, 2005 at 01:56:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not sure you do (none / 0)

              I'm saying that it's pointless to convince 55 million voters of anything if those voters go to the polls to vote on rigged machines and/or the votes are counted by biased, partisan election officials.

              Putting any other issue ahead of working for free, fair, open and honest voting is putting the cart before the horse and closing the barn door after the  horses have left for the glue factory an