Daily Kos

The End of... Everything

Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 02:59:24 PM PDT

This is a diary about the end of the world.

No, I haven't been going over my newspaper with a highlighter, looking for signs of the end times.  I haven't been studying the proper type of cow needed to sanctify the Second Temple.  I haven't been contemplating the probability of a bird flu pandemic, or the effects of the Russians marketing long range bombers to the Chinese.

This is about a quieter end.  An end with all the inevitable entropy-driven ignominy as that which awaits us all personally.  What I'm going to talk about is not a popular thought, and not yet mainstream thought, but for some people it's starting to look like a sickeningly sure bet.  For everyone who has that little achy feeling down deep in their guts that Things Just Aren't Quite Right... this one's for you.

And it starts in 1989.

Part I: The Most Unpopular Man in Science

Actually, the story starts better than two million years ago, when hominids figured out that stone plus pig skull equaled a lot more bacon for diner.  Some time after that came the fire thing.  Around 40,000 years ago, there was an explosion of technology -- almost the Cambrian of the mind -- and about 30,000 years after that, along came agriculture.  After that, it was all just fiddly bits.

What happened in 1989 was that Scientific American writer, John Horgan, began to follow around some of the top scientists and researchers in the world.  He shot the physics breeze with Roger Penrose.  Discussed evolutionary science with Stephen Jay Gould.  Put some hair on black holes with Stephen Hawking.  And contemplated structures with Freeman Dyson.  

Jealous much?  I know I am.  And Horgan wasn't limited to this foursome.  He interviewed scores of scientists, from the old guard to the young Turks, across almost every field imaginable.  He didn't limit his discussions to only the so-called "hard scientists," but branched out to talk with luminaries of the mind like Karl Popper and Noam Chomsky.  He interviewed these men (and precious few women) in their homes and laboratories.  He talked to them about their personal lives and their professional dreams.  

In 1996, the results of his world-wide science groupie junket were published, but even the title of the book was enough to set teeth on edge for many of the people he had interviewed.  Horgan called his book The End of Science.

Once, Horgan said, science had made great discoveries.  Scientists had ferreted out the structure of the atom, the cause of evolution, and the nature of DNA.  They had taken electricity from side-show wonder into the lab, and into the home.  Where man had once lived in a state of decidedly non-blissful ignorance, full of disease and superstition, science had allowed us to understand and manipulate the world around us.  Science had produced one big idea after another, and all those ideas had reshaped the world.  The trouble was, according to Horgan, the well of ideas was running dry.

Where once physicists grappled with the whole idea of elementary particles, now they are reduced to seeking ever more elusive variants of quarks, and even then any discovery they made was unlikely to have more than negligible impact, even in their own field.  Where geologists and astronomers had once upended the views of a young universe, they were now limited to wondering what happened in only the first fleeting microseconds of an origin pushed back billions of years.  Biology had gone from understanding muscles and tissues, to genetics and increasingly well defined molecular chemistry.  In short, the era of big ideas was past.

Modern scientists are limited to studying the very big or the impossibly tiny, and to make progress at either end demands experiments so expensive that they are inconceivable to any but the richest governments.  Unfortunately, the rich governments are less and less inclined to support these experiments, because the returns they deliver and tougher and tougher to quantify.  No one has to speculate about the return on investment of self-funded 18th century gentlemen dabblers who laid much of the foundation for today's science.  But start a debate over the economic benefits of the space program, and you'll see how divergent the views can be.  Can anyone really promise that the returns from the proposed (and now abandoned) Super-conducting Super-collider would really cover its multibillion dollar price tag?

The universe may be infinite, but ideas about how the universe works are not.  Every idea developed is one less that can be developed in the future.

Horgan's work is not without its critics.  In fact, finding a supporter of his contention may be more difficult than getting a good photo of a neutrino.    But the more that people argued against Horgan's point, the more that others came to admit that there might be something in his contention.  As we prepare to celebrate a century since Einstein first scribbled down the famous E=MC2 equation (please excuse the lack of superscript), the lack of such blinding insights over the interim seems at least puzzling.

Sir Isaac Newton once famously said that if he saw further because he was "standing on the shoulders of giants."  Scientists today had not only Newton's shoulders to climb, but Einstein, Planck, Bosen, and a host of others.  Plus, they have dandy new instruments for looking.  So why is it, the things they're seeing seem so incredibly dull?

Part II: The iPod Illusion

Somewhere -- I suspect back around the time that H. erectus was learning how to nap flint -- there came a break between those who studied stones, and those who concentrated on turning out the spear points.  Since then, there's been a irreparable schism between the "ivory tower" researchers and the "sell out" technologists

Even while most scientists would be loath to accept Horgan's gloomy positions, they've long been making the case that basic research -- the kind of contemplation that leads to developing one of those Big Ideas -- has been supplanted by the kind of "practical research" that goes toward making ideas into something you can purchase at your local Radio Shack.  The public rarely thinks of this one as a problem.  While the Big Idea guys are frustrated by the lack of bucks, the idea that the investments are going into consumer products is something that keeps us all reading the catalogs.

Here's a phrase for you, see if you've heard this one "the ever increasing pace of technology."  Sound familiar?  It should.  It's become as big an assumption about the world we live in as gravity.  Things change, and they keep changing ever more quickly.  Oh, what a hectic, hurried life we live.

Everyone knows that the pace of technological change is increasing.  Just like everyone knew that a heavy ball would fall faster than a light one before Galileo paid a visit to the leaning tower.  

But in 2000, Phillip Longman put out an article entitled The Slowing Pace of Progress.  Longman based his article on a statistic called Total-Factor Productivity (TFP).  This number tracks a kind of over-all sense of how effectively raw material is being turned into goods, and how quickly new kinds of goods are coming onto the market.  When you look at these numbers, the results are surprising to anyone who thinks this is the go-go high tech wonder age.  

Between 1913 and 1972, TFP grew by an annual average of 1.08 percent. Then between 1972 and 1995, for reasons economists are still debating, the rate of improvement collapsed to less than one fiftieth that of the previous era, despite a widespread adoption of computers.
 

After delivering your best Jon Stewart Whhhhaaattt?  Sit back and contemplate one of Longman's examples.  Say you took a typical couple from the 50's and dropped them in a home of today.  What is there that they would not understand?  Well, there's computers and... computers.  The TV is still a TV, even though it might have a better image and have assorted gadgets attached to it.  The stove is a stove, the oven an oven.  A vacuum cleaner still sucks -- even if it does so on a zero-radius ball and a cool vortex cleaning system.  

The gap looks even worse if you contemplate our technology vs. that from the late 1970's.  Home computers?  Check.  Portable music player?  Sure.  VCR?  Microwave?  Hey, both of those were invented back in 50's couple time.  

Do we have better gadgets today?  Boy, and how.  I'm writing this on my keen little Mac Mini (complete with iSight camera, iPod, and iLoveGlossyAppleGear).  But what we have is only a refinement of what was already there decades before.  

Now reverse the thought experiment.  Take our 50's couple and toss them in the Way Back machine to 1900.  What's left of the technology they knew?  Precious little.   That previous fifty years saw the rise of so many new technologies, the difference is astounding.  

So why was 1900 to 1950 (or 1800 to 1900) so radically better at cranking out new tech than we are today?  Far from living in a the most rapidly changing time in history, we may be living with the slowest change in technology since the Dark Ages.  We celebrate each increase in computer speed, each new wire for delivering more data to our homes, or each improvement in the rate at which we can pop popcorn.  But when's the last time a technology was introduced that changed the world like the telephone?  Radio?  The automobile?

It would be easy to dismiss Longman and his funny statistic, but other researchers have approached the problem from other directions, and they keep coming to the same conclusion.  Face it, we're techno-slackers.

There are two possibilities here, and neither one of them is all that pleasant to contemplate.  Either we are too stupid to make the kind of breakthroughs made by our parents and grandparents, or our technology problem is directly related to our research problem. Maybe, with no new Big Ideas, we don't have the basis for any new Big Breakthrough.

And you always wondered why we didn't have didn't have any flying cars.

Part III: Brother, Can You Paradigm?

One a road marked by a shortage of both Big Ideas and Big Inventions, there's really only one destination: doom.   We've coasted for decades on cheap energy and the disparity of the global labor market (in other words, we suck at science and technology, but we've become aces at exploitation).  Faced with a decline in the ready availability of energy and raw material, we're approaching that ugly tipping point where the cost of basic commodities once again becomes the primary factor in the lives of all but a very few.  It's not even a matter of going back that fifty years, or a hundred, because we've already done such a fine job of exploiting the resources that made a non-technological life style possible.  

To put in terms that would make any geek cry, imagine that there's not going to be any real Star Trek.  Ever.  Never ever.  In fact, it's increasingly likely that the handful of landings we made on the moon were high tide for mankind.  We lapped this far into the universe, and no farther.  No warp drives.  No interstellar federation.  Heck, we don't even get to see BladeRunner, much less Captain Picard.

If oil really is as restricted as all the models now indicate, don't think "how much will a tank of gas cost me in ten years," think "how many burgers can you make from a dachshund?"  Because not long after the supply crunch really hits, the glossy advertising-driven world we've built gets revealed as a shaky construction with a good paint job.  Then we discover that the future looks more like the Flintstones than the Jetsons.

But wait!  There are outs.

First off, all these guys could be wrong.  Believe you me, no scientist wants to think Horgan is right about the dust at the bottom of the idea well.  Nobody at Sony or Microsoft welcomes Longman's idea that they're squeezing the last drops of engineering milk. No one likes to think that the end is inevitable, no matter how many times Team Entropy cleans up on the rest of the universe.

So where do we look for some sunlight at the end of this very gloomy tunnel?  Into the mystical mirror of the paradigm change.

Imagine you're living somewhere in Northern Africa around 12,000 years ago and the business of tossing rocks at meat is starting to look a little, well, old.  Spears and scrapers and the rest of the hunter-gather kit have been around for a long while, and you've worked up just about every variation on how flint can be flaked and how weapons can be made.  Sure, you've got new colors in the beadwork, and there's new songs around the campfire, but nothing is really improving.  Worse, with a growing population of people and fewer big critters ripe for the stabbing, you're starting to worry that the whole system has a serious flaw.

Then along comes the agriculture paradigm.  Bang, everything changes.  

The tricky thing about a paradigm shift is, you can't see what's on the other side.  Hunter-gatherer man can't even contemplate what lives in agriculture world.  If he could, he'd have invented it already.  Paradigms are a wall.  A crazy mirror.  You look toward the future, expecting more of what you've already seen.  Only shinier.  But with a paradigm shift, it's like an alien invasion.  You can't even think like those people over there, so don't try.

So far, paradigm shifts have come along and kicked people into the next gear at several phases in history.  And if we ever needed one, we need it now.

There are a couple of good potential candidates for a paradigm shift.  The first one lies in that "big and little" problem facing science.  Yes, physicists trying to understand the nature of reality are restricted these days to looking at the extraordinarily large and the unimaginably small.  However, the two theories that describe the behavior of the large (relativity) and the small (quantum mechanics) have proved surprisingly hard to pull together.  Even among scientists who study these fields, there's a general feeling that neither theory actually tells you what's really going on.  Both are only sort of convenient mathematical models that are awfully good at predicting how things work under most conditions.  What's really happening may be infinitely niftier.

Putting the big and the small together may yet reveal a different model of the universe, as divergent from what we understand as Newton's world from Einstein's.   That alone would add at least a few inches of fresh water at the bottom of the idea well, and may actually prove to be a spring, providing a source for a lot more big ideas to come.  I hope so, because while there are a few other dark corners in scientific theory that look like they might hide possible doorways into new rooms, they are precious few, and every one of them is a long shot.

The other candidate for a big shift, is a shift in the way we think.  It may not be that we're running out of big ideas so much as that science is running out of big ideas.  It's almost impossible to talk about this possibility without sounding like a mystical kook, but it may be that the whole "scientific method" approach is so limiting, that we're ignoring a lot of what's possible.  Mr. End of Science himself, Horgan, has become an advocate of this idea, which is pushed in his latest book, Rational Mysticism.  

I have a hard time with this one.  Partly it's because I don't understand it.  Mostly it's because I deeply resent the idea that Deepak Chopra might have more to say about the future than Hawking or Penrose.  There's also, weirdly enough, a techno option on this, as some people have proposed that the flurry of information now available (through mind-bending sources like this diary) will itself lead to new ways of exercising the gray matter.  Personally, while I like to think the blogs are both informative and helpful, I have a problem believing they'll save humanity.  

Still, I expect we'll escape.  Yes, I have that sneaky, icky feeling down in my stomach.  The feeling that we've bounced a few fundamental checks and the repo man is already warming up his truck.  But I'm optimistic.  Or in deep denial, take your pick.

In any case, I'll spare you the semi-inevitable T. S. Elioit quote.

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  •  Crossposted over at Booman & European Tribunes (4.00 / 74)

    So if you have that "I just read this" feeling, now you know why.

    My wife just read it over my shoulder and gave me a "thanks, as if I wasn't depressed enough already."  I tried to explain that I thought I was really being more optimistic than I should.

    That didn't help.

    •  what about (none / 1)

      string theory? Wadda ya think?
      •  bingo... (4.00 / 14)

        most people in Systems Science and the new topological physics that I know would probably comment on your post by saying:

        We're at a bubble/paradigm shift, yes... but it has less to do with teh Science and more to do with the ontology of Westerners.

        We saw booms in the 1800's and 1950's because of two things: electricity and computers.... and steel and concrete.

        Now we've got computers telling us things that we can't wrap our brains around. Brian Greene I think pointed out that the only guy he knew who ever really "got" String Theory in the same intuitive way as Einstein "got" Relativity... is an Indian Guru... a kind of untrained savant in mathematics.

        I think most scientists would argue that mankind has a lot of catching up to do. Yes we're stuck... but it's not because of an "end" in what can be learned... but more that we're having a hard time completely re-orienting the Western Mind to grapple with systems dynamics... a model based on connnections rather than analytical differences. It'll take time. But I think genetics and nano-tech point to an opposite conclusion to the one the diarist draws.

        An interesting discussion though.

        U.S. blue collar vs. CEO income in 1992 was 1:80; in 1999 it was 1:475.

        by Lode Runner on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 04:26:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not just the Western Mind (4.00 / 10)

          It's not just the "western mind" that needs reorienting.

          We must acknowledge that we are becoming -- if not already -- post-human.

          Yup.  Think about it.  How many of us alive now will exist in purely human form at the moment of our deaths decades from now?  How many of us reading this have already benefitted from technology that extends our human capabilities?

          Any hip or knee replacements out there can surely testify to this.

          We are in the eye of a storm, one that once bridged may make being human utterly quaint and old-fashioned.  And we're not quite ready for this.

          I part with the diary entry for this reason; the author's points are worthy of continued and extensive discussion, but they are written from a human perspective about human achievement.  Frankly, the diarist mourns the end of human science.

          Here's a couple points to consider.  There's more that a "Blast from the Past" 1950's couple wouldn't grasp than meets the eye.  Like automobiles -- ever contemplate tuning a contemporary car?  Hah!  There's a lot more going on here; we've reached a point where we rely on computers to do what humans once did.  We may drive cars now as we did 50 years ago, but we rely on computers not only to BE the car, but to tune the car.

          What were the chances that someone suffering from cancer would have survived in the 50's?  What was the survival rate for heart attack and stroke victims?  Or premature infants?  

          Post-human, indeed.

          •  Down with 'Meat!' (4.00 / 3)

            An end to meat?

            I would agree.

            I think I read in Wired that the leading guys in nanotech are bragging about "immortality" only being 50 years off. Virus sized nano-bots that repair cellular damage in real time.

            Yowza!

            So, if that's just to get funding money... are we really only 100 years away?

            Big changes coming. Not an end... but big-ass changes that will look like an end to certain things...

            It's in part why I think the folks who used systems science for practical ends in large corporations and in the defense industry (ie Wolfowitz) are trying to radically redistribute wealth to the top.

            The new Feudalism is coming... maybe already here. And with Paul at the helm of the World Bank... I think we're locked in.

            U.S. blue collar vs. CEO income in 1992 was 1:80; in 1999 it was 1:475.

            by Lode Runner on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 05:41:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yup (none / 0)

              Not once in that article did they mention nanotechnology or molecular engineering (in its many forms).  Nor did it mention simulation and analysis of complex systems (such as the new theory of Maximum Entropy Production).  Or the windfall of discovery that will come with cheap sequencing technologies.  Or the fascinating questions of the nature and mechanisms of cognition and intelligence.  

              Admittedly the basic premise of simply running out of fundamental questions to ask (and the secondary premise of running out of ideas/hitting fundamental human limits of cognition) is a valid and troubling one.  But I don't think we're there yet by a long shot, and even if we should exhaust the fundamentals there are still the near-infinite manifestations of detail-oriented sciences like biology.  Their are big changes ahead for science and human society.  

              I definitely don't think that the oil crunch will slow us down much or that the space program has already peaked.  

            •  We are the robots.. (none / 0)

              Er.. I don't know if I believe the hype coming from Wired, but..  


          •  That's why (parts of) this diary are bunk (4.00 / 6)

            I don't mean to belittle the whole thing; there are certainly good points raised, especially about how too much of science is becoming commercial (leading to a lack of new concepts that might not be "profitable").  But I think that John Horgan needs to take a trip to a hospital sometime.  
            Take the UW-Madison hospital&clinics, where my brother was treated for cancer, for example.  There bone marrow transplants are fairly commonplace--basically, sending someone to the brink of death itself, then bringing them back.  If the diarist's theoretical '50s couple came to a hospital of today, they wouldn't believe that such a thing could ever exist (bone marrow transplants were first tried in the '70s).  If the couple's son had the type of cancer my brother had, he almost certainly would have died.  At best, he would have had a decent portion of his face (including his right eye) surgically removed, with only a small chance that that would have cured him.  Chemotherapy would have been right out of the question.  One scientist was ridiculed in 1948 for suggesting that leukemia (one of the most common childhood cancers) could be treated by any means.  It was not until 1958 that a single solid tumor (like the one my brother had) was cured by chemical means.  A government program to help develop drugs was not set up until 1955, and it was not until 1965 that more reliable treatments using combinations of drugs were suggested.  (It is also important when looking at these dates to remember that these drugs didn't gain widespread use until years after they were tested.)  For my brother, the cancer was intensely scary, and his survival wasn't assured, but it was over after one hellish year, and the side effects weren't debilitating.  For the '50s couple's son, it would have been a death sentence.  
            Today new technologies are in the works.  It's fine for the diarist to say that looking at ever smaller pieces of the universe is futile, but consider the world of genetics.  One of my brother's main doctors is working on a drug that will attack specific genes inside cells to keep them from creating more cancer cells (caveat: this is only my cursory understanding; what he's doing is infinitely beyond my layman's comprehension).  
            In 1843, Commisioner of Patents Henry Ellsworth testified to Congress that the flood of inventions at the time "taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end."  Needless to say, that time had not yet come.  Sure, maybe technologies in the home aren't changing much, and maybe humanity needs to get its research priorities in order.  But when I hear a doctor say that cancer in the future may be reduced to a "chronic  illness," more along the lines of diabetes or epilepsy (something that is "managed" over a long time, rather than in a short and brutal battle to the death), that icky feeling down in my stomach goes away.  

            "Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of." ~Arthur Dent, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

            by Entheate on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 06:56:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  great points (none / 1)

              ...I forget who said it, but where the big ideas of the 20th century were in physical sciences, the 21st is already, and will continue to be, the century of Biology.

              In my field (evolutionary biology) there are questions that can only begin to be answered emprically now that were untenable computationally five years ago due to processor speeds and growth of parallel computing.  

              It doesn't matter what the commercial applications might be for a project when you can put together a few dozen CPU's for a few thousand dollars to answer huge basic-science questions-- they're gonna get answered, and the answers are going to move basic science along.

              Make your free throws at the end of regulation, and you'll be ok.

              by El Sobrante on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 07:24:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I disagree. (none / 1)

                The twentieth century saw some amazing medical advances.  These advances lurch forward out of nowhere, and they progress together.  Much more money is being dedicated to medical advancement right now, but this may not necessarily be the case as more people realize our problems with energy and the environment.  This will not only be an amazing century for medical/biological advancement but for other physical sciences as well.  

                For instance, behold: http://tinyurl.com/7tcpy

                Call me a flip-flopper again, and I'll kick your ass.

                by NambyPambyPinkoCommie on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 07:57:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  the state of research (none / 0)

              i don't know what "HUMIRA was created using phage display technology resulting in an antibody with human-derived heavy and light chain variable regions and human lgG1:k constant regions. This means, it resembles antibodies normally found in the body" means. but i do know two things:

              1) humira didn't exist four years ago.

              2) without it i would've killed myself by now.  

              biology. is where it's at.

              biological and medical research is wildly inefficient right now; instead of pushing the envelope (and the envelope <i> can </i> be pushed) the companies of big pharma are rushing 'me too' drugs to market - after changing the color of the pill from blue to purple - under new patents in order to protect their monopolies - instead of investing money in r&d, they drop a fraction of the money on marketing. and because of pharma's drug reps and CME (continuing medical education, put on and paid for by big pharma) and direct to consumer advertising the doctors and the public fall for it - and some physicians script the brand new drug for 100x the cost of the drug that just went off patent, even though they are both just as safe and just as effective - or worse, sometimes the older drug is safer and / or more effective.

              our government? complicit. we taxpayers fund research through grants to university scientists. the university transfers the patent to a drug company and then the public ends up paying drastically inflated prices - consider the taxpayers assumed much of the risk of intial research.

              two books, 'the truth about drug companies' and 'university inc.' - when read together present a pretty damning indictment of our research system - but they also give me hope, 'cus all of the problems presented are fixable. and if this system is still turning out the occasional new molecular entity, or two, that do nifty stuff like effectively control crohn's? well, we ain't running out of ideas.

              •  Agreed (none / 0)

                The government -- this administration in particular -- is complicit.  They are not acting on behalf of the American public or global citizens, but on behalf of corporatists like themselves.

                The "purple pill" is but one example of excessive and unethical marketing of a product that should only serve a small, single digit percentage of the population.  Vioxx, Celebrex, Baychol, Crestor, so on, all of them pushed to market with inadequate controls or testing or warnings to citizens about risks, all of them approved by a government agency that was more concerned about helping Big Pharma than about helping the public.  All of these same drugs marketed to excess as well, at the expense of the patients buying these drugs misled to believe that these drugs were wonders they must have that were low to nil in risk.

                I hate to think that valuable research ends up dying in the pipeline simply because the costs to compete in the same market space against cash cows like Viagra and Celebrex make it impossible for a better, safer drug to succeed.

          •  William Gibson And The Cyborg (4.00 / 4)

            If you want a mindblow, William Gibson's blog delivers with astounding consistency. Search the page for "cyborg" because the entry is four or five posts down. If you like what you see, I highly recommend his books.

            This is a long but AWESOME entry with direct relevance to this diary.

            By the way, this is the firt time I have ever ventured out of lurker status on this site. Hi, Everybody!

             

            •  Welcome to Kosville... (none / 0)

              feel free to offer whatever contributions you think would be relevant.

              Republicans are afflicted by CHIDS-Chronic Humor and Irony Deficit Syndrome, pronounced 'kids' with a parental sigh.

              by stumpy on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 09:11:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Post human eh? (none / 0)

            Maybe. Symbiotic relationships tend to spur on evolution. Although I feel as though I'm symbiotic with a computer at times (you know what I mean, when you know the answer in discussion but you can't hit that synapse and the name is on the tip of your tounge, but you know exactly what to google and can find it in 6.3 seconds with a computer) it's still not organic. But then, we've just begun a whole new debate/ concept to take in mind. Do i smell a diary?
          •  Heh. (none / 0)

            Western mind? reorienting?

            I like it.

            •  Less linear (none / 0)

              Exactly.  We could stand to be a little less linear and a little more matrix-like, embrace dualistic thinking and then some.  Science meets zen.

              But that is the very crux we're on; it's the difference between solving problems using traditional linear equations and using Wolfram's cellular automata.  And using multiple layers, multiple degrees of complexity of those cellular automata at the same time.

              The diarist suggests an end to something; part of it is this transition between the neat simplicity of linear solutions and the next level, where ubiquitous and nearly free computing will be able to process multiple portions of a non-linear problem at the same time.  I think we've not run out of problems, but run out of simple ones that can be expressed simply.  It's time for us to evolve to that next level.

        •  Reading about string theory (none / 1)

          Is, for me, sort of like reading about Buddhism or listening to a Bach 2-part Invention. There's something that ties them together, but I don't know what it is.

          War is not an adventure. It is a disease. It is like typhus. - Antoine De Saint-Exupery

          by Margot on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 05:16:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's worth checking out Michio Kaku on strings (4.00 / 8)

          We tend to agree with your comment about it being a paradigm shift period.

          Physicist Michio Kaku is the co-founder of the string theory and a very, very progressive guy. String theory is more accessible than people think. You don't have to be a mystic savant to integrate it into your world view. Kaku has written many books aimed for mass readership, and if given a chance, he can get most people to "get it."

          He has also written several books on war and politics, and does a weekly radio show on science, technology, politics and the environment.

          As we recall, he came from a family that was interned in the U.S. during WWII. Although this clearly has been a factor in how his thinking developed, the guy is incredibly optimistic and exciting to listen to.

          Kaku's Asian heritage may have something to do with his ability to synthesize string theory with the rest of physics.

          We expect to Kaku get the Noble prize one day.

          •  Yes... 'Hyperspace' is sitting in front (none / 0)

            of me on my bookshelf.

            Great points... and great links! A 4 for you.

            U.S. blue collar vs. CEO income in 1992 was 1:80; in 1999 it was 1:475.

            by Lode Runner on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 05:35:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I read Dr. Kaku's book "Hyperspace" (none / 0)

            years ago, when he used to frequent a certain message board on AOL about ten years ago. I lent that book out and never got it back but I recall how well he explained things for the layman. I understand he believes in intelligent design, or am I wrong? In any case I will have to pick up that book again. Tell him that the folks over at Cosmic Discussions are still there, all 12 of us, and we appreciate his good work.
            •  Where did you get that idea about Kaku and ID? (none / 0)

              That is a disturbing allegation. It would mean that he discards everything in the field of complexity. I've met him and read several of his books and never got that vibe. I've noticed that lately he's become the science go-to guy for a lot of MSM, which is a good thing.

              You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

              by yellowdog on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 04:08:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  string theory is "not even" wrong (4.00 / 2)

        The "theory" is untestable, but has great PR, keeping legions of string "theorists" employed...

        A couple of quotes from a recent article,
        http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/14/MNGRMBOURE1.DTL

        "String theory is like a 50 year old woman wearing way too much lipstick."
        - Bob Laughlin, Stanford Nobel Laureate in Physics

        "I think string theory is textbook 'post-modernism' (and) fueled by irresponsible expenditures of money."
        - Laughlin again

        Current string-inspired speculation about extra dimensions are just modern versions of "16th century theologians (who) speculated that spirits and angels emerge from the extra-dimensional universe."
        Lawrence Krauss, Case Western Reserve University

        "I agree entirely with Larry Krauss," says Nobel Prize-winning physicist Philip Anderson of Princeton University. In academia, "we from outside the (string) field are disturbed by our colleagues' insistence that every new semi-adolescent who has done something in string theory is the greatest genius since Einstein and therefore must occupy yet another tenure track. ... Our sciences are becoming increasingly infected with quasi-theology, a tendency which needs to be openly debated."

        An ongoing discussion by Columbia mathematician Peter Woit is at
        http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/blog/

        •  once you've reached the boundaries of Flatland (4.00 / 6)

          there is no place else to go but up (or down).

          That realization seems to be behind the "quasi-theological" aspect of current thought on the universe.

          Oddly, my current bathroom reading is a 3-volume set of essays on physics throughout the ages, from the pre-Aristotelians to string theorists.

          In each of those essays, the author was attempting to find out something they found curious about the world around them.

          There are six simple machines; the inclined plane, the wedge, the screw, the lever, the pulley, and the wheel and axle. We have known about those for millennia, but none predicted quantum mechanics or relativity.

          Looking with curiosity upon the world is what makes humans come up with the ideas on how the universe reveals itself. As long as humans remain curious they will continue to recognize how past generations were fooled by Mother Nature.

          Since I am trained as a physical scientist, I guess this discussion is one happening in my own backyard, and as a past R& D director in a major chemical company, I am guilty of being a technologist for profit. Nevertheless, I always let my researchers work at least one day a week, using company equipment to play on ideas of their own, just to allow them the space for curiosity's sake and to help them retain their childlike curiosity that drove them into science in the first place. I was criticized for it by management who wanted to focus on the lucre, but since I was in a position help others cast a stone into a pond just to see what kind of ripples they could attain, I dealt with the reprobation as a badge of honor and a sacrifice upon the alter of all those who came before me and like Newton said, on those whose shoulders allowed me to see a bit farther than them.

          There are a lot of us out there who do this, and while we ourselves may not be the ones who create the great ideas, at least we are sufficient dreamers to know that the seeds we plant in others might sprout into another marvel.

          And is that not at heart, the same thing Martin Luther King, Jr. bespoke of in his "I have a Dream" speech?

          I guess that is the faith I have in humans to remain curious regardless of how much we ever know.

          "There are many truths of which the full meaning cannot be realized until personal experience has brought it home." John Stuart Mill

          by kuvasz on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 07:01:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not entirely true (none / 0)

          There are ways that string theory can at least in principle be tested via astronomical observations.
          For example charged particles from space have been observed for almost a century and are called cosmic rays. Their origin is still somewhat a mystery and in any case, there should be a limit to the maximum energy these particles can get. This limit, called the GZK limit has been violated and there has been some discussion that string theory can provide a natural explanation. Further observations can test
          some of these ideas.

          H.L. Mencken: "A nation of sheep begets a government of wolves"

          by igneous on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 12:58:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Extra dimensions (none / 0)

          I don't know that much about string theory but I can address this.

          Current string-inspired speculation about extra dimensions are just modern versions of "16th century theologians (who) speculated that spirits and angels emerge from the extra-dimensional universe.

          Actually, the idea of "rolled up" dimensions could be testable.  Forces like electromagnetism and gravity are proportional to 1/r^(n-1) where n is the number of dimensions in the space.  So in Flatland gravity and EM are 1/r forces, for example.  What this means is that on really small scales we expect forces like gravity and EM to fall off faster than in "macro" scale space.  Higher dimensional spaces are also inherently "bigger" than lower dimensional ones so there are more ways for things to miss each other and arrange themselves spatially.

          Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

          by Event Horizon on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 07:37:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  You get a 4 (4.00 / 6)

      just for your part III subtitle.  But really, excellent diary.  If you'll pardon the cliché, what comes to mind is "necessity is the mother of invention."  If our present way of life crashes and burns, we'll start thinking more creatively, because the only other option will be extinction.  Whether this will be sufficient to produce Big Ideas and Paradigm Shifts, I don't know.  But like you, I prefer to be cautiously (if not realistically) optimistic.

      We seek not rest but transformation. - Marge Piercy

      by Leslie in CA on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 04:21:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Necessity is the mother . . . (none / 0)

        Jared Diamond in Guns Germs & Steel questions this truism.

        I wonder how Diamond's analysis fits into the ideas in this diary (if at all).

        Don't get me started . . .

        by Upper West on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 06:58:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  necessity is the mutha' (none / 0)

        Wouldn't post fossil fuel alt energy earth count as a new paradigm? With renewable individually accesible "Democratic" energy sources for all?  As to Mysticism....THE Mystery of Life is the essential element of human existence. What science strips away in its' quest for Facts, Poets (the good ones) have always tried to put back. Put Republicans and Rapturians back in the box and I too think we might get somewhere pretty groovy.
    •  Devilstower you are quite brilliant , , , (4.00 / 3)

      with a very low user ID number.

      May I ask, what do you do?

      You're diary was eye crossing brilliant.

      We're very fortunate to have people like you arund here.

      •  geologist and SF author, I believe n/t (none / 0)

        pocketa-pocketa-pocketa

        by rhubarb on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 06:24:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks so much (none / 1)

        I'm blushing from here.

        Rhubarb nailed my resume in one line.  Rock head and writer.

        I'm currently working on a novel that's equal parts sci fi and religious thought, so I've been running down these alleys a lot lately.  When I get it done, I'm going to run a poll and see if anyone is interested in seeing Chapter 1 or so posted.  It has absolutely nothing to do with politics or current events (says the bozo who just posted a diary whose most recent citation was five years old), so I don't feel like I such just assume on kos and take up his space.

        •  NDE (none / 0)

          Have you investigated Near Death Experiences yet?

          What amazes me is how so many seem to have personally experienced events straight out of theoretical physics.  

        •  I'm already interested in chapter 1 (n/t) (none / 0)

        •  I've gotta tell ya' (none / 0)

          I was an English geek in school (now a professional editor) and LOATHED all things science (yes, I'm shouting), but I love your diaries and always read them, no matter how long they are (ha, ha). You make science accessible even for those of us who used to go running in terror from glass test tubes. Thanks for that!

          And I'll vote in advance...would definitely be interested in seeing chapter one!

        •  Sure, I'd love to read it (none / 0)

          I don't pay very close attention to science fiction, with a few exceptions, but I have a strong interest in religious mysticism.  I get the sense the best sci-fi is asking some of the same questions, but maybe the way it answers them doesn't always appeal to me.  (Sometimes it does - ie Solaris, the original film, and I ought to read the book too.)  
    •  I remember reading the 'End of Science' (4.00 / 7)

      back in 1996 and being somewhat disturbed by it.

      But nowadays? It's not as much of a worry as it used to be. Simply because I realized that Horgan's main point was one that he never really made directly in the book: that at some point, scientific advances must come to an end.

      It's not so much that there are no great discoveries left to be made, but that at some point, there won't be.

      Now, as far as I'm concerned, I think that there's still some blood left in the old man that is science. There's still a fundamental conflict between the theory of relavity and quantum mechanics, and we still have quite a ways to go when it comes to understanding the human mind.

      And from those fields, we may end up with insights that lead to even greater insights. Or not. We simply don't know.

      But yes, at some point, we will know everything that we can possibly know about ourselves and our place in the universe.

      And personally, I don't think that's such a bad thing. In fact, I think I'd hate to live in a universe which was constantly changing.

      I think one of the reasons that so many scientists find Horgan's theories disturbing is that many have come to view science as an acceptable substitute for religion. And although it might be in some ways, it isn't in others.

      My point? Some years ago, I can remember reading a Victorian account of Science's attempts to understand the universe.

      It likened our quest for understanding to a man sitting in a dark cellar, who after managing to light a match after much fumbling around in the dark, finally gets a better view of his surroundings and is simply left with more questions.

      Should we ever get to a point where we've managed to explore the entire house with our one match, I won't be upset.

      True, it'll be the end of a journey, but I think it was one well worth taking.

    •  Interesting read (4.00 / 6)

      (if a little LaRouche-ish in its doomsday-tone)

      But I've got a few questions for you.  

      First off regards the Total-Factor Productivity measure you mentioned.  Aren't we currently in the middle of what might be called the "Information Age", in that the Internet, ubiquitous wireless communication, etc., have made it so that the greatest technological feats in the past decade aren't so much made into goods as services?  Google is one of our greatest companies right now technologically, and they don't even make much of anything. I'd think that these sorts of advances wouldn't be properly factored into a measure of production.

      Secondly, one can make the same argument about "the end of science" at virtually any point in history.  Since we never see the paradigm shifts in front of us, it always seems like progress is about to halt.  Personally, I'm not at all convinced that "science" is headed toward an end.  Sure, it seems like physics can't get much more advanced than it is right now, but watch as new particle accelerators are built that can test some of the predictions of string theory!  Then we'll see some advancement there.  And science doesn't just mean physics.  I work in a biology lab and I'm not at all worried that I'll be out of a job soon.  I'm working on the molecular biology of neurons right now, and there's a goldmine of information to be learned.  Not to speak of the fact that the information and technology developed from the decoding of the genome is just picking up steam.

      And what about mathematics?  That will never see an end.  And chemistry?  Until we can make anything we want, that won't be going away any time soon.  And computer science?  It's just getting started, really...

      So color this scientist skeptical  :)

      •  Excellent point... (none / 1)

        First off regards the Total-Factor Productivity measure you mentioned.  Aren't we currently in the middle of what might be called the "Information Age", in that the Internet, ubiquitous wireless communication, etc., have made it so that the greatest technological feats in the past decade aren't so much made into goods as services?  Google is one of our greatest companies right now technologically, and they don't even make much of anything. I'd think that these sorts of advances wouldn't be properly factored into a measure of production.

        You nailed a big objection I have. I think it's quite likely that rather than a radical decrease in science & technology productivity starting in the 70's, it's more likely that the Total-Factor Productivity model became less relevant to the kind of work being done then. The model probably needs fixing.

        Sean

      •  I suspect you're right (none / 0)

        I very much doubt that the statistics are adequate to capture "intellectual artifacts" that don't take the form of commodities you can buy at the local mega-mart.  

        How you would craft some kind of conversion factor is quite a bit out of my league (quick, just put an estimate on what's on kos).

    •  Spectacular Diary! (none / 1)

      ...the kind that makes me want to catch up real quick on the subject (as if I could really keep up with it, of course) and chew on it for a long, long time.
      I've always been stuck between two extremes. First, the pragmatic rationalist that abhors organized religion and it's nefarious trappings. Second, the starry-eyed hippie that doesn't actually wear her crystals anymore, but hasn't thrown them out either. I grew up on dreams of an "Age of Aquarius" hailed in song and prose, waiting with bated breath for the precise paradigm shift you describe. Somewhere in astrological circles (I think), I recall reading about this "boundary" that Earth would pass through and POOF! our brains would Wake Up and appreciate how everything really IS made of the same energy, the same stardust Joni Mitchell sung me to sleep with as a babe. On that amazing day, we'd reconcile our mechanical and ethereal selves and enter a whole new way of seeing the world and being in it. Paying the mortgage, raising the kid, screaming at the nightly news and watching my ass get far too wide has done much to cure me of this romanticism, but part of me still clings to the hippie dream in which this paradigm shift (regardless of origin) really does deliver us a path to the giant leaps and bounds we really should be destined for.

      The most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen & Stupidity - Harlan Ellison

      by Cantankerous Bitch on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 06:30:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Horgan and his ilk (none / 1)

      are why I stopped reading Scientific American. I have decades worth of issues that I read the moment I received them. But the dumbing-down of sciam due to the takeover of much of the writing by non-scientists like Horgan has made this formerly-magisterial magazine pretty useless.

      About his thesis - total bullshit. The man just doesn't get it. Ever heard of neuroscience? Nothing fundamental to see there - move along, folks. Even with particle physics (my former field), when the love affair with string theory winds down and when experimentalists get used to lower budgets and start using their ingenuity there will be real progress.

      The paradox of Schrodinger's Cat is now understand due to a new paradigm in quantum mechanics - without multi-billion dollar budgets.

      On another topic, productivity picked up dramatically just after 1995 due in part to technology finally being used effectively - as opposed to being a huge absorber of time and money.

      Good diary, btw.

      Come see TV from the reality-based community at RealityBasedTV.com

      by MarkInSanFran on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 11:24:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Totally agree about the hypothesis. (none / 0)

        It's completely convoluted.  He claims no great advances are being made in theory based on a measure of the number of advances that have made it into productive use, and then turns and blames this on an excess of people who spend their talent working on commodifying new technology -- exactly the heuristic he measures.  It makes no sense at all.

        Plenty of incredible advances have been made in phenomenology due to our new abilities to inspect the very tiny, and most of them revolve around things that were originally considered obstacles.  An example -- frustrated total internal reflection (and resulting evanescent waves) was an obstacle, (yes, in the realm of the very tiny), to various endeavors in optics.

        Now we use it to let computers get a dirt-cheap look at microorganisms.

        If there is any blame to be thrown, it has to go to the business leaders, for their failure to take risks on new product concepts.  I've long since lost the link, but recall reading an excellent reply on a forum describing just how intractable it is to get a new and original product past the layers of businessmen.  Tweaks to older products are much preferred by all but engineers these days, as the original product already has a demonstrated viability.

        We sunk too much into info technology, to be sure, but there was, and will continue to be demand.  The rest of the advances got used, but not by the consumer -- rather by other scientists, especially those working in medicine.  Seeing as with stem cell research and other advances like A.G.E. crosslink breakers, we are on the virge of a much longer lifespan, I'd say that qualifies as a huge leap and a development that screams "impact."

        As far as when the general public "gentleman scientist" will again play a role in scientific development -- well all we really need to do to do that is stop throwing away our old electronics and start playing with them instead.  There's plenty of fun to be had there -- lasers, beam splitters, powerful magnets, and much, much more.  When we stop being lazy about it as a culture, we might find that we have a lot of tools within the reach of the common man that can be used to poke and prod at the universe.  Not all groundbreaking experiments require a mile long particle accelerator.

        Ignorance is Curable.

        by skids on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 12:40:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Woah (4.00 / 3)

    Scary. Thoughtful. Well researched. Wonderfully written!

    And the best thing I've read in days.

    I'm downloading it to reread at leisure.

    James Inhofe (R - Exxon): The greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the people of Oklahoma. - Eiron

    by cookiebear on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 03:06:01 PM PDT

  •  Interesting stuff. (4.00 / 2)

         I've been contemplating the beginnings of our civilization rather than the end. Once man had reached the hunter gatherer stage what compelled him to settle down in one spot, founding cities and civilization itself. He could have gone on indefinitely following the herds and moving from one patch of wild grain to the next, but he needed a settled domicile to brew beer. Beer is the foundation stone of all civilization. As Homer Simpson says "Alcohol the source of and the solution to all of life's problems"

    CHRISTIAN, n. One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. A. Bierce

    by irate on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 03:23:13 PM PDT

  •  Ending the deception/predation model is key (4.00 / 8)

    The wily Odysseus schemed and tricked his way through the Mediterranean, and Western culture has been in trouble ever since. In a world of expanding resources, lying, cheating, and stealing can be success strategies. In a world of declining resources, they simply accelerate the decline.

    America is currently led by gangsters (e.g., Ken Lay, Karl Rove, Dick Cheney), who quietly but relentlessly embrace the combination of deception and predation. When this culture of trickery and brutality is discarded, we may have a chance of surviving the coming resource crunch.

    We are producing an increasing number of useful goods and services for increasingly useless people. -- Ivan Illich

    by ANKOSS on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 03:26:00 PM PDT

    •  I gotta take issue with your idea of Odysseus (4.00 / 3)

      I mean, if you think about, he ended up saving a lot of lives and bringing the war to a speedier conclusion. Not to mention he wasn't spending his time happily on the battlefields of Troy hacking and slashing for the "glory" (read: sheer joy) of it. Come on, the man wanted to get back to his wife and his son! I think he's the most admirable of the various characters in the whole saga, just because he seemed to be the one who doesn't enjoy tossing away human lives (including his own, of course) like wrappers.

      Well, there was that six years he spent banging an evil sorceress instead of going him. That wasn't too cool of him, but I think you know what I mean.

    •  Excellent comment. (4.00 / 3)

      I ask myself the question every day: who and where are the "leaders" in the world who can help us start the process of extricating ourselves from the mess we are in? I think we have a political problem- not a scientific one. Jacques Chirac just wont do.

      " Let us stop, look and listen. Let us not give this president or any president unchecked power. Remember the Constitution." Sen Rob't. Byrd 10/11/02.

      by LEP on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 04:40:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree. (none / 1)

      I think the next big frontier we must cross is moral.

      That would provide the rationale for discovering ways to get more out of dwindling world resources (rather than just stealing them from less fortunate peoples).

  •  If you look at "progress" closely... (4.00 / 10)

    ...one thing that's quite apparent is that such progress is not consistent, not a steady line, but rather a series of jumps and plateaus.  Right now, we're refining things, polishing things on the plateau.  And like the pearls that grow around minor irritants in the oysters, change needs a turning point, a set of conditions that circumscribes "the way we've always done things" such that a new direction is not only useful, but inevitable.

    That, we are possibly nearing.  We will definitely need to find a replacement for internal combustion engines running on petroleum products.  We may well soon need to replace our present system of chemical fertilizer-and-irrigation-based large-scale commercial agriculture with something radically different.  Who knows what's lurking in the biological labs?  Who knows what advances in materials technology will make possible?  

    I think we are not so much on the edge of an abyss, but rather that we are entering an unfamiliar, darkened room and looking for the light switch.  We may not find it, true, then again, we may.

    Time will tell.

    •  Technological Singularity (4.00 / 4)

      Here's something that may be of interest:

      Wikipedia article on the Singularity"

      The idea is that a kind of feedback loop can be created via certain technologies which will accelerate progress exponentially and ultimately cause a radical break with what humanity can currently comprehend. For example, assume humanity finally creates AI and assume Moore's law doesn't crap out on us - the infrastructure that AI runs on will double in power regularly. The AI can leverage that increased power to develop more advanced technologies which can then be leveraged to develop even more advanced technologies (and so on and so forth).  

      Progress doesn't run steadily but maybe someday it will run exponentially - at least for a little while.

      "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

      by Jett on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 04:01:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The trouble with the "singularity"... (none / 1)

        ... is that even very optimistic estimates of the rate of technological growth don't produce a "singularity". Moore's law makes a convenient proxy for the rate of technological growth - it posits a doubling of transistor density every 18 months (or two years). Doubling - that's exponential growth. And we won't be able to sustain that for too many more cycles.

        But a singularity requires faster than exponential growth. Whereas an exponential function has a finite value at every point along its curve, a function that has a singularity actually goes to infinity at some point along its curve. Unless the rate of technology improvement changes very radically, there'll be no singularity.

        This argument may seem sort of grammar-nazi-ish, but there's more to it than that. I think that we're actually more likely to see the smoothly accelerating, but always well defined, level of technology - rather than a sudden blowup.

        Sean

    •  Yes! (4.00 / 2)

      According to Brian Greene (the "father" of String Theory), we have a long way to go before we have the next Einstein...

      they kind of guy who just "gets it." ... ie understands the new science in an intuitive way.

      Some day... after a serious challenge of Western Man's ontology, that light switch will start to click on. It probly will happen in India rather than the U.S. But it'll happen.

      U.S. blue collar vs. CEO income in 1992 was 1:80; in 1999 it was 1:475.

      by Lode Runner on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 04:29:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Greene (4.00 / 2)

        John Schwartz and Ed Witten might take issue with your assessment of Greene.  He wrote a popularization and wears a leather jacket.
      •  father of string theory? (none / 1)


        The physicist who's usually called the "father of string theory" is Stanford's Leonard Susskind.

        Brian Greene is just a smart guy who wrote a book.

        Greene, like more than a few people in physics, regards Ed Witten (from Einstein's old hangout, the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton) as the closest thing there is to a string theory Einstein.  

        •  Michael Greene, not Brian (none / 1)

          It was John Schwartz and Michael Greene (Queen Mary College, University of London) who did the initial work on string theory.  Ed Witten was the Johnny come lately, although, to be fair, he's so brilliant that he's more than made up for being late out of the starting gate.

          When my country, into which I had just set my foot, was set on fire about my ears, it was time to stir. It was time for every man to stir. -- Thomas Paine

          by original practice on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 05:13:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  again... granted... (none / 0)

          was it Srinivasa Ramanujan, that Greene was talking about? I can't remember. You seem to know more about this than I. I'm just a layman.

          U.S. blue collar vs. CEO income in 1992 was 1:80; in 1999 it was 1:475.

          by Lode Runner on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 05:16:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  nice (4.00 / 3)

    One of the better diaries I've read here.

    They're growing meat.  That addresses some scary scarcity problems.

    I honestly think that part of the problem is that we honestly do have the capability to make a stunning amount of progress in one particular direction - bio engineering and genetic engineering - but, we are refusing to do so because of morality.

    There's all sorts of room for paradigm shifts in that direction.  We're probably right in the middle of one - it's just that the shift will take several decades.

    Here's what I mean.  This insight was stunning the first time I read it: "Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom" refers to a societal battle between those that are ok with the concepts of cloning, body modification, scientific immortality, and those who aren't.  The thing is, if there is even a tiny tiny tiny minority of those who are okay with science-induced immortality - playing God - as along as they have enough critical mass to continue making progress, they will win against the people who are morally opposed to it... because the other people will eventually die out.

    And then on the other end of that, you've got the completion of the paradigm shift.

    •  The Ophiuchi Hotline (4.00 / 9)

      Back in 1977, John Varley came out with a wild sci fi novel titled "The Ophiuchi Hotline."  In it, Varley tied together several of his short stories and novellas around the theme that human civilization has stagnated over one issue: holding our own genetic code sacred.

      Even for the people in the story who think themselves radicals, the mindset is so engrained that humanity can't take the steps needed to survive.

      (One of the very nice things about getting a few novels of my own out the door was getting to hobnob with folks I'd admired for years.  Varley was one of the first I contrived to meet.)

      •  What have you written? (none / 0)

        I ask for two reasons:

        1. I like your diaring style and would like to read more, and
        2. As a looooong-time SF fan -- remember, fan is short for fanatic -- I may already have your books on my shelves.

        Thanks for the Varley referencer btw. I read it long ago, and had forgotten it. I reread the Gaea trilogy recently, and so nw I'll turn to the Eight Worlds books (of which Ophiuchi is the first)
    •  That's a big idea, all right (4.00 / 3)

      I think there are definitely major ethical issues to be chewed over by people with more brain cells than I have left.

      But as I read this excellent diary, the area I thought of immediately as one that would knock the socks off Mr & Mrs. 50's is in human biology, and especially genetics - and without even thinking about Dolly the Sheep or scientific immortality.

      Think about: in vitro fertilization, genetic screening for predisposition to illness, DNA crime evidence, and the mapping of the genome.

      Ask any couple who have an IVF baby, any woman who was able to seek pre-emptive treatment for breast cancer, or any person who was cleared of a crime they didn't commit where they'd have been 50 years ago.

      The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

      by sidnora on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 03:56:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  idaho here (none / 1)

      sorry, but growing meat doesn't address scarcity because you have to feed it.  In fact, you have to use much more land to feed it than you use to grow real food.
      •  I think tunesmith (none / 1)

        must mean something other than the standard practice of breeding animals for eating purposes.  Cuz my first thought was, hello, we've been doing this for a looooong time.  But what tunesmith means, I don't know.

        Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night

        by hrh on Sun Aug 21, 2005 at 04:24:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  spores (4.00 / 2)

          right.  they grow meat from spores.  long sheets of it on racks.  Then they stack the sheets to create texture.  It's really freaky.  It's really meat, but it doesn't come from animals, aside from the small culture of animal cells that it all grows from.
          •  I am afraid (none / 1)

            that all these ways of sustaining human life are making us a little less human.  Or maybe I should say -- the things we do sustain life makes it a lot less worth living.

            we grew strawberries this summer.  Small real ones.  If you ever tasted one, you would walk quickly past those huge driscolls they sell at Safeway.  

            •  yep (none / 0)

              That's exactly what I mean about morality putting the brakes on.  A lot of people agree with you, so it inhibits progress.

              I'm not taking sides, just pointing it out.  I think in general the solutions will have to be found that will make the progress while also evolving our moral understandings in a comfortable way.  So science is going to have to include a hell of a lot more philosophy.  (Just wait until politicians start commissioning philosophers.... heh)

              •  not morality (none / 0)

                IMO morality is a kind of bizarre human construct which doesn't really reflect much about real life.  I am talking about something more sensory -- and to me more authnetic.  

                Taking ourselves out and away from the environment we were designed (and I don't mean intelligently) for and instead "designing" our own environment, without any clue as to the consequences of doing so.

                •  sure (none / 0)

                  I just think that's a subjective definition, and that the dividing point between "living within our environment" and "controlling our environment" is a hazy one, usually drawn under the control of our individual sense of morality.

                  When I get down to brass tacks, I feel like part of the value of being human - what makes us unique - is our ability to engineer and control our environment.  Other species can do that, but they always have to operate within instinct, whereas we have the extra abilities of self-interest, going against our instinct, and a much more highly developed sense of empathy.  Those are checks and balances against each other (which is what makes the humans without empathy so dangerous and threatening to our survival as a species).

                  I think there are those that bemoan our ability to act from self-interest and would prefer us to revert to purely instinctual creatures, since it would be more in balance with the environment.  (I'm not saying that you want that; I'm just saying that generally, some people confuse that with morality.)  I think that instead we should be seeking to integrate empathy and altruism into concepts like capitalism - integrate the different aspects of what makes us human.

                  That's part of what makes objectivism (Ayn Rand) so dangerous - it celebrates self-interest but scoffs at empathy/altruism.  

          •  Can you provide any (none / 0)

            links to stories about this. Honestly I've never heard of it.
          •  I think it's wonderful. (none / 0)

            I've been a vegetarian for much of my life because I don't like the suffering and killing of animals for meat.  Anything that reduces the need for animals to be slaughtered for food is very fine with me.  I think folks freak out at the wrong things.  I think it's far more dehumanizing to participate in what that paragon of morality and retrograde virtue GWBush is doing than anything done in a lab.  

            "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

            by eyeswideopen on Mon Aug 22, 2005 at 12:37:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  great comment (none / 1)

        the whole "growing meat" as an answer really stuck out .. why go that far when we already do grow food and have for thousands of years?
    •  morality (4.00 / 2)

      The necessary morality "revolution" is about accepting your power and taking responsibility.

      I mean, the basic premise of all ancient cultures and religions is that a human is powerless in the world around. He cannot control weather, he cannot control crops, he cannot control dangerous animals. So much important for his life is not in his control. Even whole tribe or society may not be powerful enough.

      But in the last two centuries, things changed. We are not bounded much by natural restrictions of weather, food or wild danger. (Though probably we may unleash a climate catastrophe beyond our control.) On biological scale, Homo Sapiens is an incredibly successful species at the moment. For comparison, all living individuals of any other primate species can be put in one big stadium.

      There are only economic (and maybe moral) restrictions on human persons. That is, we depend on ourselves, collectively and individually.

      It is not so that we can do absolutely everything we wish. Many of us wish to win a lottery or marry a beauty. Some have to overcome cancer or a car accident. Not everything is totally or handily in our control.

      But we have to admit that we are much more powerful than centuries before, whether we want that or not. Certainly collectively, we have big impact on everything on the Earth. We changed virtually everything.

      It sounds immoral to "play God", but that is our destiny now. Everything we do can have big consequences, whether we wish that or not. We do affect environment and each other profoundly. And the moral thing is to take some care of consequences of our actions. Is this a paradigm shift?

  •  Crossposted from the European Tribune (4.00 / 12)

    I think we all underestimate the change that the net represents. We've likely all been in it for a number of years, and have gotten used to having a lot of information at our fingertips. But this is truly a change of massive proportions:

    • the ubiquity of information, and the ability to find quite easily relevant information about almost any topic. Google, and the propensity of people of putting information our for free, are really new things;

    • the ubiquity of the network. This has only happened partly, but i have no doubt that with the merger of phones, computers and networks, a lot more than computers will be connected to the grid. This will also have some massive consequences - some dangerous, as the risk of loss of privacy, identity theft, and others yet to discover, but many good ones as well - including possibly the end of the requirement for us to move around so much.

    On the energy side, a topic we both know well, we know that the current situation will not last - either we find radically new ways to do things and produce energy, or this whole question will be moot and you will have the actual end of everything. The interesting trend of the past 30 years has been our growing awareness of the damage we were making to the environment. Sustainability is an ugly word which has been captured by the PR departments, but it really means something, and it means human behavior that would be radically different to what man has done for most of its existence (except possibly in some isolated communities or civilisations).
    Finally, I do expect that we are about to learn a lot of things from the recent discoveries in biology, genetics, and nanotechnologies. The mixing of the network with biology is also rich in new perspectives.

    I read once that our times were very depressing because for the first time we could glimpse the potential for man becoming immortal, but it was unlikely to be available for us...

    •  The Know-It-All Paradigm (4.00 / 6)

      Several people have suggested that the net itself represents one potential for that paradigm shift.  

      We're already at the b