Daily Kos

Levee Breach May Cause Even More Catastrophic N.O. Flood

by Mike Doughney

Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 11:57:59 PM PDT

The New Orleans Times-Picayune just reported that a large section of a levee near Lake Pontchartrain gave way late Monday morning flooding the surrounding area. They also report that water levels in the area were still rising this evening.

A few minutes ago (1:40 AM CT) CNN had a caller on-air from the Tulane University Hospital who reported that water levels were rapidly rising there to the point that emergency vehicles could no longer reach the hospital and that they were preparing to evacuate. The only method left for them to evacuate is via helicopter. The hospital is in the central business district, a few blocks from the Superdome and not far from the French Quarter.

As has already been reported numerous times, the city of New Orleans is shaped much like a bowl and is kept dry with many massive pumps. Apparently the pumps aren't working or are being overwhelmed by the levee breach. Perhaps the early reports that New Orleans has dodged complete ruin were premature.

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Permalink | 186 comments

  •  Breach is 2 blocks long (none / 0)

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."- Thomas Jefferson

    by RandyMI on Mon Aug 29, 2005 at 11:56:46 PM PDT

  •  This could be extremely serious! (none / 0)

    if not for the whole city, at least for a substantial portion of it.  Let's hope and pray that the waters recede quickly and that rescue efforts tonight and tomorrow can be much more extensive than today!

    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."

    by Viceroy on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:04:34 AM PDT

    •  The waters physically can't recede (4.00 / 2)

      because there's nowhere for the water to go unless it's pumped out. At this rate - if the reports are true of a huge levee breach and rapidly rising water (the CNN caller at the hospital said it was rising at an inch every five minutes) the city is going to be filled by Lake Pontchartrain and stay that way for awhile.

      Sleeps With Bastard

      by Mike Doughney on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:16:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The city has a strategy for this ... (none / 0)

        ... eventuality, but it is a long term approach.

        This is the worst-case-scenario, and the lower lying regions of the city will fill with water.

        Once the water level OUTSIDE the system of levees has subsided sufficiently, and AFTER the hurricane season ends (it's still possible for another one to hit the region), the city will blast open the levees retaining the water (the levees opposite lake Ponchartrain are higher, and when blasted open, will allow the water now inside the city to flow out.
        Estimates state this process could take up to 3-4 months to complete.

        "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

        by SteinL on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:45:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Why would they wait? (none / 0)

          Deliberately letting the city sit under water for an extended period of time sounds far more damaging than secondary damage from another hurricane.  This is New Orleans - that water is warm and festering.  

          Rebuilding a Levee wouldn't even take that long.  They need to drain/pump the city as soon as possible.  

          (-4.75, -3.64)

          by cryptochrome on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 04:43:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The levees are surrounded by water now ... (none / 0)

            They can't breach the southern levvees before the the surrounding water has subsided.

            It's really a hairy situation for them now.

            "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

            by SteinL on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:14:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Time To Call In The Dutch (none / 1)

        I was in Amsterdam once, for a 2-day visit.  It struck me as being exactly the sort of city I'd dream up as an ideal place to live, although I'd make it a bit warmer in early April (which was when I was there).  The temperature, though perfectly comfortable with a light jacket and turtleneck shirt, had an effect on my feet I hadn't anticipated.  The cold water underneath the city streets made actually chilled the soles of your feet as you walked along the pavement.  

        "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

        "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

        by JJB on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:06:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hope you are right, but I doubt it (none / 0)

      having been through Tropical Storm Allison in Houston in 2001.
      That water just doesn't drain out quick especially below sealevel. The soil doesn't absorb water down here like in other places.
      Allison was devastating to our city and we didn't have the wind like New Orleans.

      LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

      by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:17:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I woke up this morning and thought... (none / 0)

    "Phew, NOLA is still there."

    I hope I don't wake up tomorrow morning and find that it isn't.

    "Don't falme me pleas."

    by socratic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:06:47 AM PDT

  •  Does anyone (none / 0)

    know how close the flooded homes are to this breach in the levi?

    by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:09:59 AM PDT

  •  And one more thing (4.00 / 6)

    I've tried to stay away from the Bush-bashing and the Iraq linkages, but goddamnit, every time I think about how many helicopters and how many soldiers (particularly members of the National Guard) are in Iraq right now "spreading freedom", it makes me furious.

    We need to write LTEs right fucking now saying that only now the human dimension of the folly in Iraq is becoming clear, because we don't have the resources to save our American brothers and sisters stranded in a drowning city and a devastated region.

    "Don't falme me pleas."

    by socratic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:11:17 AM PDT

    •  I'm with you (none / 0)

       I thought of this before the storm just in helping to evacuate people. But now its just fricken sick to watch.

      by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:12:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That will morph into (none / 0)

        "the left says the hurricane is Bush's fault"

        We already have issues we aren't pushing hard enough. Let Mississippi and Louisiana blame the Prez

        by potato on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:17:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't forget Alabama. n/t (4.00 / 3)

          LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

          by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:19:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Heh (none / 0)

            I actually chuckled.  Took me back to the debates.

            (but, yes, please don't forget Alabama and whoever gets dumped on tonight)

            "Don't falme me pleas."

            by socratic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:22:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Or Mississippi (none / 0)

            According to this morning's Today report, there are a number of small towns that have yet to be heard from regarding damage and current conditions.

            "L'enfer, c'est les autres." - Jean Paul Sartre, Huis Clos

            "L'enfer, c'est le GOP!" - JJB, from an idea by oratorio

            by JJB on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 06:09:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  If it does morph into that (none / 0)

          let it. Be  a grown-up once for a while and don't succomb to childish nattering.

          Restore Democracy! Denounce the GOP (Georgie's Orwellian Party)!

          by high5 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:29:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Blame? (4.00 / 5)

          "Let Mississippi and Louisiana blame the Prez" I live in California. I grew up in Carencro, Louisiana, about 160 minutes out of New Orleans. I am Louisiana. I AM PISSED. Thousands of people could die tonight while president dipship backslaps himslef over a near-beer about his conquest of the nursing home today.

          by vought on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:02:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Fuck that (4.00 / 5)

          Anybody who says that gets a smack.  Help yourself to a nice cup of STFU, potato.

          No, "the left" says that Bush has weakened our country, endangered our safety, and brought us to the brink of financial ruin.  

          We blame BushCo for failing to plan to compensate for the loss of the contributions of the National Guard and the Reserves in the Gulf Coast states during fucking hurricane season.

          My taxes help pay for relief efforts.  Those are my fellow Americans suffering along the Gulf Coast.  I am (we are) damn well entitled to point out where BushCo's policies have once again failed America.

          -AG

          "Watching George Bush trying to govern is like
          watching a monkey trying to f**k a football."
          I'm a libertarian, pro-2A capitalist Democrat.

          by AlphaGeek on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:08:50 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  eat me, alphagreek (none / 1)

            don't hide behind cute little acronyms, or say I get a "smack". My fiance lives in NOLA and I haven't heard from her in the last 2 days.

            They can address this issue far better than you or me, and they will.

            Stick to being offended by little signs.

            by potato on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:29:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry to hear about your girlfriend (none / 1)

              The suggestion to shut the fuck up with the 'let someone else worry about taking Bush to task' still stands.  If you want to roll over for the Republicans, there are plenty of 'moderate' Democratic appeasers who'd love to get to know you.  

              Haven't you learned anything in the last decade?  If you wait for someone else to say the hard things that must be said, you'll still be waiting when the opposition crushes you like a tin can.  This is not a local issue, it's a national issue.

              For what it's worth, the ones who should get a smack for saying things like 'the left is blaming the hurricane on Bush' are the conservative talking heads.  If we let them dictate the terms of the debate, we've already lost.

              -AG

              "Watching George Bush trying to govern is like
              watching a monkey trying to f**k a football."
              I'm a libertarian, pro-2A capitalist Democrat.

              by AlphaGeek on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:43:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  read what i said (none / 0)

                it was my opinion then and it still is.

                I didn't say the issue shouldn't be talked about, but let the people who've lost friends and relatives and property have a shot at it. It's their friggin city that's gone.

                We haven't even counted the bodies for christ's sake. The water is still rising. A few f*cking hours delay in blaming Bush won't hurt anything.

                I personally believe that Bush is more than the worst President in history. I believe he's the end of democracy as we know it.

                Still, I'd just love for some people that have lost the most to have a chance to say something first. Then I'll support them all the way.

                And as to what I've learned in the last decade - you can't divine who I might be from my quick post and ask something like that unless you think you're made of pixie dust or something.

                sorry to all, but i'm in a bad mood.

                by potato on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:12:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  His actions (none / 1)

                  Okay, worst case scenario with the levee, and Bush continues on his tour, spending thousands of dollars to jet around, and smiling that a freaking fool.
                  Said it before and I will say it again, let the jackass talk to the public. Every time he does, his poll numbers drop and whatever he is pushing fails.
                  No matter how much money they throw in for recovery, images of him laughing while our country is in the midst of a major catastrophe will not go over well, even with some of the idiots who believe every word the MSM says.

                  Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Abraham Lincoln

                  by melthewriter on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:22:01 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Clearly articulated (none / 0)

                  I see your point.  I don't 100% agree with it, but I certainly recognize the merit to your position.

                  My principal disagreement is this: the Gulf Coast victims of this disaster will have their hands full for months to come.  If I were in their shoes, I would be grateful to anyone who spoke up on my behalf and maybe, just maybe, made the American public aware of how much worse my problems were because of BushCo.

                  I am reasonably certain that I am not made of pixie dust, though that would certainly be a novelty.

                  I hope your fiancee comes through this OK.  Basic telecom services should be online in the next day or so, hopefully you'll hear from her soon after.  Right now the only substantive communications in or out of the disaster zone are (as usual) emergency radio services and satellite uplinks.

                  -AG

                  "Watching George Bush trying to govern is like
                  watching a monkey trying to f**k a football."
                  I'm a libertarian, pro-2A capitalist Democrat.

                  by AlphaGeek on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:30:56 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  No need to blame Bush directly. (3.00 / 2)

          We could blame, say, the Iraqi insurgents for keeping the National Guard tied up overseas. That would still get the point across that the war is impairing our disaster relief capabilities without seeming like gratuitous Bush bashing.
          People are smart enough to put two and two together -- they know who led us into this war.

          by Abou Ben Adhem on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:51:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's also fair to ask (4.00 / 6)

            why the Republican Congress cut the region's federal emergency preparedness and disaster mitigation funding by over 50% ($71+ million) just before the start of hurricane season.

            It's also fair to ask why over 80% of the funding was cut from an Army Corps of Engineers project to restore wetlands and silt barriers and to reroute some of the navigation channels in order to enhance protection from storm surges and to enhance drainage away from sensitive areas.

            It's not only fair to ask, it's almost obligatory to ask why - when 25% of the nation's oil refining capacity and 30% of the nation's oil product shipping and 50% of the nation's Strategic Petroleum Reserve are located in this area - federal funding to protect the area from and mitigate the consequences of an inevitable strike from a major hurricane was cut at all instead of being dramatically increased as a matter of Homeland Security!

            If the Bush Administration tax cuts were intended to stimulate the economy and budget cuts were intended to mediate the resulting deficits, one must ask why federal funding - a few billion dollars, less than what's been given to Halliburton in no-bid contracts in Iraq - to protect the economy from the negative consequences of just such an event as Katrina was cut rather than being increased.

            It's not as if this situation and its consequences weren't forseen.  I've been screaming about exactly this since 9/11, putting it in terms of Homeland Security, as have Richard Clarke and many others.  Whether or not the attacks of 9/11 were actually forseeable is still up for debate.  The scenario we are now experienceing WAS forseeable, and forseen and yet the Republican Congress and the Bush Administration and Homeland Security officials chose to ignore the warnings. Was it merely because most of the criticism for the lack of effort and action in this matter has come from Democrats and others who had criticized the Administration in the past?

            Once again, the damnable incompetence and lack of foresight and leadership, and the partisan paranoia of this Adminstration has caused the country serious harm.

            Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

            by sxwarren on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:56:07 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Well (none / 0)

      The Chimp will be appearing before another hand-picked audience tomorrow comparing the war in Iraq to WW2.

      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."- Thomas Jefferson

      by RandyMI on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:18:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wish you hadn't reminded me of that. (none / 0)

        The Bastard!!(Him, not you)

        The White House will be The People's House--B.Obama

        by Phil S 33 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:20:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Soon people are going to start wondering... (4.00 / 3)

        ... why he's talking about Iraq - even if everything he says is true and not showing leadership on this Hurricane.  

        Another LTE one-liner: He is, after all, President of the United States, not Chief Freedom Bringer of the World.  His responsibility is here.

        (not quite a one-liner) :)

        "Don't falme me pleas."

        by socratic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:21:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  President? Chief? (4.00 / 4)

          Try the King of Death.

          All the world has to show for him is death and destruction. Johnson, after all, had the Civil Rights Act; Nixon, the reconcilation with China and some good environmental legislation. Bush has precisely two classes of accomplishments: fuckups he deliberately created and then mismanaged, and disasters he wasn't directly responsible for that he then proceeded to fuck up. The man's reign should be marked in the history books with a skull and crossbones.

          "And if you vant a second opinion -- you are ugly too!"

          by sagesource on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:36:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Does Bush want to set a negligence standard? (none / 0)

      Say, flooding a city is not a big deal... War is war... Hurricane is hurricane... People always suffer...

      by ray z on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:21:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, and great powers always decline (none / 0)

        Big deal. The U.S. was about due to go into the toilet of history anyway. Bush just did what came naturally for a person like himself: he jumped in and pulled the flush handle on his way down.

        Yawn. These things happen.

        "This document is totally non-redactable and non-segregable and cannot even be meaningfully described." *

        by dratman on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:41:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Just heard (none / 0)

    there are areas that are already rising.

    by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:11:30 AM PDT

  •  TImes-Picayune article: (none / 0)

    Officials of the Army Corps of Engineers have contingencies for levee breaches such as the one that happened Monday, but it will take time and effort to get the heavy equipment into place to make the repair. Breach repair is part of the Corps' planning for recovery from catastrophic storms, but nobody Monday was able to say how long it would take to plug the hole, or how much water would get through it before that happened.

    Let us hope..

    on strike.

    by daria g on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:12:07 AM PDT

  •  Just did a Google map search, (none / 1)

    that Tulane hospital is down at one end of Canal street it seems. Water rising that fast there means amny, many places are already suffering  flooding.

    The White House will be The People's House--B.Obama

    by Phil S 33 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:17:23 AM PDT

    •  Tulane Med Center is south of I-10 and east of (none / 0)

      Superdome.

      LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

      by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:22:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Does this mean that the SuperDome (none / 0)

        is in danger as well?  That would be beyond awful -- and the numbers there are beyond rescue by copters.

        "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

        by Cream City on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:27:07 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Superdome is not that far east from Tulane. (none / 0)

          From what I'm seeing.
          Superdome is built up, though.
          Yesterday, I was incredibly upset about the Superdome scenario.
          Now, I am worried for anything and anyone that is lower-lying.

          LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

          by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:36:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Problem is, with no A/C (none / 0)

            they are not going to be comfortable; and they are trapped now for probably several days.

            The White House will be The People's House--B.Obama

            by Phil S 33 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:39:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They are all in one place (none / 0)

              The easier to get food, water and rescue to them.  Better than trying to find desperate survivors sprinkled across rooftops.

              Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

              by Fabian on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:57:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  just heard that it will be 91 degrees (none / 1)

              in NOLA today--and I can imagine that the humidity will be very high as well. I hope those in the Superdome will be ok! There are a lot of sick and elderly people in there (including patients from some hosptials that were evacuated last night or this morning) who will not be able to handle the extreme heat well.

              "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" --Ralph Waldo Emerson (Hear that, George??)

              by still small voice on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 04:22:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Pray (none / 0)

    Please pray or send positive thoughts that there is no more rain along the Gulf Coast areas for a few weeks at least.

    Rain came through South Florida shortly after Hurricane Andrew, compounding problems. Thankfully, Andrew was a "dry" storm -- not much rain. The flooding caused by Hurricane Katrina is horrific and borderline catastrophic.

    This breach could push this weather event into a major catastrophe for Nawlins.

    -7.38, -5.23 "Though the storm may be raging, and the billows tossing high, Lord I feel like going on."

    by CocoaLove on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:22:44 AM PDT

  •  Levee breach (none / 0)

    The woman from Tulane University Hospital sounded frightened for the patients.  They have over 1000 people in that hospital, most of whom are in need of critical care.  The water is rapidly nearing their second floor where they have their emergency generators.  Considering the water didn't start rising around them until about two hours ago seems to indicate the levee breach is much larger now than it was earlier today.  She said the LSP confirmed to her that it was two blocks long now.  That's a HUGE breech in a levee system.

    She said water was rushing so fast down Canal Street now, it had white caps on it - all clearly visible from the hospital's roof.  This hospital is some distance away from the 17th Street Canal, so having so much water at the hospital doesn't bode well for much of the downtown area. This is very scary stuff.   NOLA isn't out of danger yet.

    by Morrigan on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:23:41 AM PDT

  •  the implications are staggering (4.00 / 4)

    It's matter of dominoes, and the process has already well under way. According to CNN it's coming up and coming up fast. Lots of people are asleep, and there are no communications. This is about to get MUCH worse rapidly. I can't guess at timing as it's all a matter of how much 'bowl' land the lake has to fill, but those who can in N'awlins better start climbing stairs. Meanwhile, back in CNN land, it's the dead of night and no one's putting 2 + 2 together.

    barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

    by stormcoming on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:24:01 AM PDT

    •  Worst Case Scenario for NOLA. (none / 0)

      For those levees to break.
      I am surprised with knowing it was coming in at a Cat3 that they had so many patients at Tulane and Charity. They should have been evac'ed before the storm imho.
      Also, For the many communities east of NO...with no word yet on their status...at all! That is what has been concerning me earlier this evening.
      Shows a lack of something on someone's part.
      Reminds me of Tsunami and we are not 3rd world (except for Chimpy McFlightsuit and his crew).

      LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

      by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:32:10 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Missed Lede (4.00 / 6)

      "Meanwhile, back in CNN land, it's the dead of night and no one's putting 2 + 2 together."

      It's weird how everybody's been missing the central point of this story since the beginning.

      Monday morning, the real story was that the levees mainly held.

      Monday evening, the real story was the 17th St levee was breached.

      And now, the real story is that most of NO is in danger of flooding, rendering the city uninhabitable for months.

      Slow motion destruction of the city.

      When the sun comes up, is the whole city underwater?

      by flubber on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:37:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've been wondering about this too (none / 0)

        I'm close to Sac, calif, where all the levis broke one after another becuase of accumalated stress heading at the next levy in line. It made me wonder if they could of got out there and done something. But even by helicopter there's a limit in supplies and workers for something this big. It is a  slow motion disaster unfolding. Not sure of the levi, but could they copter in cement blocks and set them down?

        by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:46:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Where are the helicopters? (4.00 / 4)

          Where are the Marines' amphibious vehicles surging out into the streets, or at least reports that they're headed to the area (of course, they're probably all in Iraq)?  Where are the scenes of patriotic Americans at the rapid reaction center loading supplies on helicopters and offloading evacuees?  Where are leaked suggestions that our spy satellites are being used to survey the levees?  Where is the shock and awe of our American population saving each other?  I hate to say this, but we need some propaganda - to show America and the world that we're (trying to be) on top of this thing.  We could do it for a war, but now we need to do it for this.

          I know there are thousands of great Americans (and probably quite a few foreign nationals) doing heroic things, but it just feels ... it feels like it's every man for himself right now.

          I'm glad they've stopped showing the video of that poor bird flapping down the street.  That's the wrong message.  

          "Don't falme me pleas."

          by socratic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:54:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe, us , the people (none / 0)

            should just ask the other countries to come in a save us. Surely they can do a better job at this point than Bush has in showing concern over this. Shit, talking about Iraq while thousands of people are stranded and the structural integrity of the levee's are in question.

            by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:00:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  there were some helicopters (none / 1)

            The problem is, right now it's DARK, and there are a lot of wires everywhere. Hopefully, tomorrow there will be more.

            "They're telling us something we don't understand"
            General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

            by subtropolis on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:13:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dark? (none / 1)

              Why does this matter?

              I remember a long while back, with that 747 that crashed in Japan after losing most of its tail fin, how US forces offered to go in at night in helicopters and search for survivors with infrared gear. The Japanese waved them off, saying that no one could possibly be alive, and then looked like fools when it turned out that several people had survived, but most had died during the night before rescue. And that must be 20-some years ago now.

              I suppose all the night-vision and IR equipment is... guess where....

              "And if you vant a second opinion -- you are ugly too!"

              by sagesource on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:26:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yah, didn't we invade (none / 0)

                Iraq at night? Lot's can be done at night. There doing it now. they just don't have enough resources.

                by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:31:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Darkness (none / 1)

                "Why does this matter?" Because New Orleans has a maze of above-ground wire-bound utilities. Telephone, electricity, pretty much every thing but water and sewer is strung between poles from block to block. 'Ain't like San Whatever. We can't bury _anything_ here. -D

                by vought on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:31:46 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The rescue operation I referenced... (none / 0)

                  ....was to be flown into a rugged mountain area covered by thick pine forests. As a matter of fact, that's why there were survivors -- the crash was cushioned to a certain extent by the branches.

                  And that was with the IR equipment and helicopters of a generation ago.

                  I do think that dealing with overhead wiring would be well within the capabilites of the modern US Air Force if their commanders didn't have, er, "other priorities".

                  "And if you vant a second opinion -- you are ugly too!"

                  by sagesource on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:38:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so why didi you 'reference' that then? (none / 0)

                    You're not paying attention at all. The situation people are trying to deal with right now does not have to do with mountains in Japan! Those neighbourhoods are fucking dangerous right now. It does nobody any good if a chopper (full of able-bodied rescue-angels) goes down in the dark.

                    Quit criticising that which you do not understand. I daresay none of us knows what the situation is right now. I'm sure they're doing their best. And yes, they know that people are dying. I'm also sure that that's weighing mightily heavy on them.

                    "They're telling us something we don't understand"
                    General Charles de Gaulle, Mai '68

                    by subtropolis on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 07:59:16 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  A demonstration of one of the advantages (none / 1)

                of having one's nation be occupied for a few decades by United States forces. </sarcasm>

                Sleeps With Bastard

                by Mike Doughney on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:33:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Right, every man for himself (4.00 / 12)

            Much of the news coverage I've heard and watched today is voiced by people who are verbalizing the assumption that people now stuck in N.O. "chose" to remain there.

            No. Some didn't have the means to leave; a huge portion of the population is poor and/or doesn't own a car. Evacuation should have been handled by the National Guard and plans for that should have been in place and financed, with hardware like amphibious vessels and aircraft at the ready for just this kind of anticipated disaster.

            But the neocons are unable to comprehend that true "homeland security" involves not domestic paranoia and high tech security, but simply taking care of the welfare of individuals - many of whom might be poor, many others simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps such a thing is just too socialistic for them to ever support.

            I expect to hear a lot more language, both blatant and subtle, of "blame the victim" in the aftermath of this disaster, because the simple notion that government should in some way be responsible for people's welfare in a proactive fashion is completely heretical in the current political climate (and perhaps well thereafter). Besides, when the neocon establishment thinks it more satisfying to borrow a billion dollars a day and burn it, and send the National Guard offshore rather than have it at the ready to handle domestic situations, this is exactly the kind of place where we end up.

            Sleeps With Bastard

            by Mike Doughney on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:26:23 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Welcome to (none / 0)

            It feels like it's every man for himself right now.

            well? welcome to a classic example of clownservative philosophy.

            and oh, BTW, the flooding/destruction of NOLA will soon be called God's Judgement of the sinners who live in and frequent the city.

            that way the wingnuts won't have to feel badly about the human suffering in NOLA-- it's God's judgement.. and people should have known this was coming.

            "Cigna cannot decide who is going to live and who is going to die." -- Nataline's mother

            by Superpole on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:36:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Maybe someone noted this down thread but (none / 1)

            Los Angeles Swift Water Rescue is on their way and bringing their equipment via cargo plane (?)
            The question mark is recalling what kind of plane, but they are on their way and they are good.

            by joynow on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:31:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm sure help is rushing to the area (none / 1)

              The amazing thing to me is that we can watch bombs dropping on Baghdad live, we can watch anti-aircraft guns fire via IR filters on cameras, and we have reporters rushing into battle with the soldiers, but we have such an information blackout from a major American city.  

              I know there are helicopters and rescue resources in the area, and more coming to the scene every minute, but everybody seems (justifiably) stunned.

              I guess my reaction is more a reaction to constant media saturation in every other part of my life.  And this one act of nature has upset that.  There's no propaganda, no confident bureaucrats, none of the BS we usually use to put a palatable face on disaster.

              And right at this very moment, CNN is reporting that Bush will be speaking at a rally to celebrate our victory over Japan in WWII.  At a moment when our country has been knocked hard (it's not just the city, after all: it's everything in the path of the storm as well as cascading effects of insurance claims and oil production), we're celebrating a war that ended a lifetime ago.

              As a spectator, this is hard.  I can't imagine what it's like for the folks who are living through this.  I was around for Hurricane Hugo, but this is bigger.

              "Don't falme me pleas."

              by socratic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:48:18 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know (none / 0)

                I think so little of bush, yet this is jaw drooping bad behavior.

                I am puzzled because I kept hearing that rescuers and equipment were waiting to rush in, but the rescuers have been local police and the Coast guard. Local police are trying to use their boats. Even reporters and civilians are trying to help.

                Where are the waiting rescuers? Did I hear wrong and it was just the red cross with food? What is FEMA's role?

                Since they thought this would be even worse...why wouldn't the proper equipment needed be on the ready?

                I don't know why people were in their home but their attics are running out of air and that is what matters.

                Bus after bus should have gotten people out before the storm. Too late for that.

                But where is everyone they said was waiting?

                My heart aches.

                and bush is such an amazing dolt. We knew that, but why aren't his handlers making him act like he cares and is president, just for show even?

                by joynow on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:16:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  They are playing fools (none / 1)

        Then they say, "no one saw it coming".

        And by them I mean... Bush Co... or CNN/Fox... all of them who supposed to have some responsibility.

        by ray z on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:46:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  And.... we're 'flat-bust bankrupt' ! (4.00 / 2)

          Who in their right mind would live in such a country?
          Ruled by fools?
          Informed by tools?

          LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

          by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:57:04 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  People want instant resolution .. (4.00 / 2)

        ... this was a slow motion disaster in the making, from the start.

        We all breathed a sigh of relief when 200 mph winds didn't slam into the city - but city planners have warned for exactly this outcome (Maestri, for instance) since the start.

        Lake Ponchartrain would get pushed back by the wind, hard rain would add to the volume of the lake, the flooding would gradually undermine the levees, and it was a question of whether they would hold or not.

        They didn't.

        It will now take months for the city to be able to get the water out - they have to wait until the end of hurricane season to breach the opposing levees, that are lower than the ones against Lake Ponchartrain, to let the water out.
        The only thing missing, from Maestri's worst-case-scenario now, is whether Mississippi will find a new path (with the mandatory evacutaion, the consequences of a catastrophic and sudden breach were averted).

        "I don't do quagmires, and my boss doesn't do nuance."

        by SteinL on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:54:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  In interview with the mayor (none / 0)

    . . . he described the problem as, with levee breaches (several) and broken pumps (several), the pumping that is happening is circular, i.e., water is being pumped out one place and then flows right back in elsewhere on the rim of the bowl that is the city.

    And every movement of water can further erode  already breached levees.

    It sounds so hopeless.  He is exhausted but hanging on for the feds to finally arrive tomorrow to hear his "wishlist."

    Link to interview posted elsewhere (sorry I can't remember who to credit), but see it at  
    http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.wwltv.com/082905mayor.wmv

    "Let all the dreamers wake the nation." -- Carly Simon

    by Cream City on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:25:30 AM PDT

  •  Not Tuesday... (none / 0)

    "...gave way late MONDAY morning"

    I'm not going anywhere. I'm standing up, which is how one speaks in opposition in a civilized world. - Ainsley Hayes

    by jillian on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:26:09 AM PDT

  •  last I heard (none / 0)

    on CNN the water was upto the second floor of Tulane hospital and the rate of water rising was increasing.

    by skippythebox on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:27:01 AM PDT

  •  And guess where all this rain gets to go? (4.00 / 6)

    Guess where the Ohio Valley and the Ohio River drain into? Take a look at the projected storm track, the states about to get major rain (places like Cincinnati , Ohio), and what all these waterways like the Ohio river eventually drain into? The Mississippi. This is nowhere near over.

    barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.

    by stormcoming on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:32:21 AM PDT

  •  Army Corps of Engineers (none / 0)

    The Corps is meeting at their command post right now and CNN expecting them to release a statement within the hour.

    by Morrigan on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:38:21 AM PDT

  •  Omigawd! (none / 0)

    This is more chilling hearing the interview with the Tulane University vice president the second time because the situation seems so dire.

    I've spent so much time in New Orleans and Lake Ponchatrain. You hear about the warnings of the Big One. I feel so helpless listening to this woman speak of white caps on Canal Street.

    God help those people.

    -7.38, -5.23 "Though the storm may be raging, and the billows tossing high, Lord I feel like going on."

    by CocoaLove on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:38:40 AM PDT

  •  Someone help me, (none / 1)

    This URL is live video of several stations giving local updates.
    I don't know how to "link"

    http://www.weatherserver.net/livevideo.htm

    The White House will be The People's House--B.Obama

    by Phil S 33 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:47:20 AM PDT

  •  Salon.com (4.00 / 2)

    has a very timely story.

    by ray z on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:53:15 AM PDT

  •  CNN just reported (none / 0)

    That 80% of New Orleans is under water...now this breach?  Holy shit.  

    Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler - Proverbs 17:7

    by BarbinMD on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 12:57:21 AM PDT

  •  Here is a comprehensive diagram of the NOLA (4.00 / 14)

    levee system:

    And a Link to the larger file

    The only way to ensure a free press is to own one

    by RedDan on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:01:04 AM PDT

  •  This is what everyone feared... (none / 0)

    Let's be honest.

    by diplomatic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:01:16 AM PDT

  •  80% of City Underwater (none / 1)

    "Perhaps the early reports that New Orleans has dodged complete ruin were premature."

    CNN is reporting that the Mayor said that 80% of New Orleans is now underwater.

    I'd assume this means the city is FUBAR for months.

    by flubber on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:01:58 AM PDT

  •  More alarming reports (none / 0)

    Apparently there are 4 large ships run aground, one of which is an oil tanker leaking oil.

    Apparently the Twin Span is totally destroyed.

    Impeach. Now.

    by wecandoit7 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:02:54 AM PDT

  •  CNN at least covered this story right away (none / 0)

    They can't be perfect but why bash them?  Their reporter, Gene Meserve (sp?) is almost in tears.

    Let's be honest.

    by diplomatic on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:03:24 AM PDT

  •  Hospital evacuations (none / 0)

    CNN just reported that the plans for airlift evacuations for both Tulane University Hospital and Charity Hospital have been put on hold.  According to their sources, the water isn't rising that fast now.

    I'm not sure whether to breathe a sigh of relief just yet, though.

    by Morrigan on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:04:57 AM PDT

    •  the thing they risk (none / 0)

       is the integrity of the existing wall. More pressure is put on the parts where water is pouring through. If one part busted open there's a great chance that other areas are equally in danger. to stop the rescue now means waiting to the last minute. Is this about resources? Re-directing them to other area's? Wonder. Also, the generators could get damaged in these hospitals and many of the patients rely on them to keep living. I'm not sure what's happening to have them call off this rescue.

      by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:10:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Generators on the 2nd floor (none / 0)

        So what are they waiting for. They only kept the critical payients, many are on ventilators. How long does it take to get 1000 out by helicopter?

        I am stunned...

        by joynow on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 02:36:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How many helicopters? (none / 0)

          From where?  Where are the patients going?  Where do the helicopters refuel?  What tasks would these helicopters be pulled away from?

          Minor details to consider, and thats just a start.

          "Good idea Chuck, but Syrup won't stop 'em." Firesign Theater, Everything You Know is Wrong.

          by 3card on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:10:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Medflight helicopters are very few (none / 0)

            Damned expensive to operate and critical patients need some medical support to survive the flight out.  I think we may have a half dozen for the Central Ohio region maybe two dozen for the state?  

            If you can get non critical patients out first, the evac would be faster.  But 1000 people by chopper is going to be slow even if they were all able bodies.

            Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

            by Fabian on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 04:02:41 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think right about now... (none / 0)

            ...you could evacute people using a barge right now.

            This is making me sick.

            Amateurs talk strategery, professionals talk logistics

            by Young Freud on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 04:30:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Tulane Med Center's First Floor is Flooded. (none / 1)

      Putting rescue on hold because rate of rise has decreased is Bullshit.
      Resources are not available.

      LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

      by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:22:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not like they haven't lied before (none / 0)

        Because they claimed they had enough National Guardsmen to help, but now they are calling other states for help. I have a business trip through the area at the end of September, was telling someone I was planning another route, and they acted like I had something wrong with me. People are just not getting it. The mayor said at least WEEKS. sigh They don't want to worry their beautiful minds about it.

        Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Abraham Lincoln

        by melthewriter on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:29:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I hope you're wrong (none / 0)

        I hope you're wrong, because a situation would have to be dire indeed if 1000+ critical patients were something besides the FIRST priority.

        Impeach. Now.

        by wecandoit7 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:30:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tulane Med Center VP: (none / 0)

          referred to 1000 in the facility.
          We should not assume that all are patients.
          She did not break it down.
          Could/must be patients, staff, family of staff and family of patients.

          LoL CNN: AC360 "We're dialing down the heat and turning up the light." LoL ME " I'm pretty sure that I swallowed my own tongue."

          by cosette on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:47:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The first ripple.... (none / 0)

    Folks won't have jobs for weeks, which means no income, which means no groceries, etc.

    I fear third-world conditions for weeks/months to come.  No food, no water, no housing, no electricity.

    And, by the way, 12 weeks of hurricane season remaining.

    If Chimpy was smart (yeah, I know....)he would call up the Oregon (or Colorado, or Wisconsin) National Guard and rotate them with the Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama NG in Iraq man-for-man. Gonna need them at home for a good, long while.

    "Same shit, Different Nixon." - Driftglass

    by roxtar on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:09:13 AM PDT

    •  I'm sure some of their NG (none / 0)

      is overseas in Iraq, also.
      Nice little fix W's put us into!!!

      The White House will be The People's House--B.Obama

      by Phil S 33 on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:29:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We're a little busy out here in Oregon (none / 0)

      Oregon only has one non-guard/non-reserve military base, and it's a storage depot for nerve gas.  We are quite possibly the least militarized state in the entire union.

      Even so, our state has around a thousand troops currently in Iraq.  We've got more units heading to Afghanistan and Kuwait this month.  Even more units preparing to head to Iraq in 2006.  And this is after having several hundred troops arrive home this spring. According to the Army, they are trying to make sure no state has more than 50% of it's guard depolyed at any one time.  Oregon's deployment is a bit lower than some other states, because we've had a lot of troops finish up tours within the last nine months, and are in the process of shipping out replacement units as we speak.  And even though it doesn't tend to make the news as often, this is our busy time of year for guardsmen as well. National Guardsmen are the backbone of the forest fighting force in the West. Things aren't currently too bad fire-wise, and we did have a bit of rain today to help reduce the fire danger a bit, but even if we sent the ENTIRE Oregon National Guard to Iraq (not counting the troops already there), it would just barely be enough to to replace the portion of the Louisiana Guard which is currently overseas.  Thet would mean telling the hundreds of troops who just got home from a year long deployment five months ago to pack up, emptying the only air-defense base for the entire Oregon coast (Oregon Air National Guard 142nd fighter wing in Portland) and having to find replacements for the Oregon troops planning on heading to Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq over the next few weeks and months.

      Colorado and Wyoming combined have even fewer troops than Oregon.

      The National Guard system is stretched as far as it can go. There isn't anywhere in the country that isn't feeling the pain of this war. Even Oregon.

      congratulations on your foreskin -- osteriser

      by bartman on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:28:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Tree-huggers vs Tree-killers (none / 1)

        Change the phrase "forest fighting" to "forest fire fighting" in my previous comment.

        If there's one thing Oregon has plenty of, it's lumberjacks hungry for battle against the crafty insurgent forces of our national forests.  Fir, Pine, or Spruce, we all know that these insurgents are all terrorists.  Better to clearcut them in the forests of the Cascades rather than wait until they come to us in Downtown Portland.

        congratulations on your foreskin -- osteriser

        by bartman on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 03:42:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  cnn's confirming that there is (none / 1)

    a 200 foot breach in the wall.

    by nicky on Tue Aug 30, 2005 at 01:14:28 AM PDT