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I want a draft

by glass house

Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 01:56:26 PM PDT

 I want a draft for America. I want each youth to spend 2 years after high school in a national service working to help America.
  I would like them working on the national parks , our cities,rehab projects and others for the common good.
  If all youth had to do it there would be a level playing field and they would gain many skills if they chose to. Many youths are not ready for college and this could be a maturing time for many.
   In the event of any and all disasters these would be put to use with the tasks they are trained and or suited to. No deferments no excuses , every able bodied youth would help the country for two years
  Do I live in a fantasy world? Update Lets just say they will not be millitary. I said public service NOT SOLDIERS

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  •  Sparta? (none / 0)

    Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 01:57:15 PM PDT

  •  I want a draft, too (4.00 / 2)

    Institute a draft right now and we'll be out of Iraq in a fuckin' NY minute.

    "There are four boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order." Ed Howdershelt

    by JuliaAnn on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 01:57:47 PM PDT

    •  You got it! (none / 0)

      Nothing says "I love you" like a one-way ticket to Iraq! You want a million-man... umm, "person"... march on D.C.? Threaten to take away people's lives instead of just their civil liberties and then scratch one bogus war!

      by peirone on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:30:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  unless you yourself (none / 1)

    are of draft age, you live in a glass house

    In God we trust. All others must pay cash.

    by yet another liberal on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 01:57:48 PM PDT

  •  Yes, you do live in a fantasy world. (4.00 / 3)

    Draft = Slavery.

    Really, really BAD idea.

    I am all for positive incentives to public service, like extending the GI Bill to any high school student willing to serve a 2-4 year hitch in public service, but negative incentives like a draft/compulsory "volunteering" are anti-Freedom. You are basically putting a gun to the back of every person of a certain age and saying "volunteer or we voluntarily put you in the pokey."

    That's not the American way. Think it over. Check your premises.

    Arnold and Dubya star in "Twins II"
    http://msgeek703.googlepages.com/thearnoldanddubyashow
    Remember Katrina: throw the bastards out!

    by MamasGun on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 01:59:33 PM PDT

    •  School is mandatory (none / 1)

      Why is this different?

      There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Hamlet Act 1, Scene 5

      by LawStudent on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:05:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are we not slaves now (none / 0)

        Face it are we not dollar slaves now ? What harm could putting it off two years to work for the common good do. Christ, I do live in a fantasy world, what good American would do this

      by glass house on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:09:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You trust politicians to act in the common good? (none / 0)

        They just don't.

        --Is RINO a good thing?

        by anonymous coward 8 on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 03:24:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I need to know where your (none / 0)

          coming from. This is not clear to me . No I do not trust government , but if you are saying that they would take these kids and whisk them into the army that is your hypothetical and mine is this utopia of community service. I Know it is a fantasy because People in the US will never give again if any strings are attached. We are now only short term, write a check or one night a week at the soup kitchen.It makes us feel good and lets us continue our lives, I feel that has to change or we are just another blip in history

          by glass house on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 05:41:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I believe in small systems (none / 0)

            where a person can do good and see the tangible results.  I think with Peak Oil, and the foreign debt balance, we're going to be forced into much smaller and more local systems.   I think large systems, like the US government's tera-dollar budget, attract increasing levels of corruption, cronyism, bad advice, and bad management, and dystopic result.  Is Roberts, the all-but-confirmed Chief Justice of the United States, anywhere near the best judge? Or is he just the most-Bush-favored one?  Would he be honest with a 'leader' who makes gut-judgements and looks into the eyes of people and feels he gets the measure of men's souls?

            Yes I do believe this gang of thugs would conscript any national service manpower into cheap-labor republican projects essential to the national security -- Like soup-kitchen running in Iraq/Iran under the management of Halliburton.  And we'd pay for the privilege of the security consultants to tell us this was the best option.

            --Is RINO a good thing?

            by anonymous coward 8 on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 06:56:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Translation (none / 0)

      I like the bar for dodging military service being lowered to my level. My kids should never be at risk of being shot. Poor kids? Hey, I won't feel as hypocritical and guilty if we throw them some more crumbs off the table.

      by ElitistJohn on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:17:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  particularly a punishment to the poor (none / 0)

      Not every young person has the means to essentially take 2 years off from working--especially those who are forced to work even earlier in life to help their families make ends meet.

      www.climatechangers.org... it's a matter of degrees.

      by princemyshkin on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 03:36:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  just like lots of (none / 1)

    other countries--yessir, i'd like this for us oldsters, too.

    by stagemom on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:01:07 PM PDT

  •  Maybe a better plan, would be a scholarship. (4.00 / 2)

    Volunteer a coupla years. Do all those things voluntarily for a year or two, get a state school scholarship. You wont get paid, you'd live with mom and dad, but you could go to school afterwards.

    With today's soaring college costs, it would be pretty popular.

    It's a neighborly day in this beautywood. Relentless!

    by ablington on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:01:09 PM PDT

  •  Draft Is a Great Idea (none / 0)

    Read a book by Jared Diamond this year.  I believe it was called "Collapse" about the fall of civilizations, largely due to environmental degradation and mismanagement.  One of the societies he mentioned in a positive light was the tribes people in New Guinea (I think that was it) who lived for thousands of years in a sustainable agrarian community.  One of the keys to the community's success, noted by Diamond, was the flat nature of the distribution of benefits between the highest and lowest members of society.  Leaders, called "Big Men" lived just like everyone else.  If we all got our share of the pie, and shared burdens equally, and the rich had to live with the environmental degredation they are heaping on the poor, this place would change in a fucking hurry.

    That said, you are a lunatic for suggesting such a thing, and live in a complete fantasy world if you think for one second that the oligarchy in charge is about to implement a law that would require their children to spend any time with the unwashed masses of the world.  I am a lunatic, too.

    by BostonJoe on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:05:51 PM PDT

  •  Do It In The Private Sector (none / 0)

    Don't get this government involved in any such thing. It needs to be changed radically before it could do anything useful with such a power over the lives of supposedly free people.

    I think you've flipped your lid to think this is a good idea now, or at any point in the forseeable future. Take a little look at who has been put into all the positions of administrative power.

    by NewDirection on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:16:36 PM PDT

  •  Heh heh heh (none / 1)

    As a veteran and mother of a soldier on his second combat tour (and he's ONLY 19) I LOVE to talk draft with anyone who (1) has a Bush sign in their yard or bumpersticker on their car, (2) or whines that "we have to rebuild Iraq" or "we have to stay in Iraq now" or "what about the poor Iraqi people?"

    It's amazing how the stuttering, stammering, and then retorts to "volunteer" army and "slavery" begin.

    If you want to support the empire, enlist/send your kids to enlist, support the draft, or STFU.

    by Sharon Jumper on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:17:21 PM PDT

  •  asdf (4.00 / 2)

    I would like them working on the national parks , our cities,rehab projects and others for the common good.

    That might be what you would like.  But the reality is that they'd end up in Iraq (or Iran, Syria, etc.)

    by dtj on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:17:38 PM PDT

    •  And (none / 0)

      That would be the end of such adventures. When the people with middle class and up income get concerned, and have skin in the game, the politicians balk.

      by ElitistJohn on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:20:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Both of you (none / 0)

        Quit fuckin with my fantsy

        by glass house on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:31:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not so sure about that (none / 0)

        The draft existed throughout U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War (even before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution), and it didn't end until 1973.  True, the draft system allowed the well-off to escape service more easily than the poor, but it still had effects on all social classes.  Despite this, and despite widespread protests against the draft, major U.S. involvement in the war continued for 9 years (1964 to 1973).  Bush and his fellow right-wingers can do a lot of damage in 9 years.

        by dtj on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:35:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Except (none / 0)

          There was a much larger opposition, much faster because of the draft. As has been noted in threads on the 24th Giant Puppet protest, the end of the draft marked the end of mass protests and actions against Vietnam.

          by ElitistJohn on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:39:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  My point though (none / 0)

            is that despite the protests against the draft, the war didn't end.  It was already an "unpopular war" by 1967, and Nixon said in 1968 that he would end it if elected, but he didn't end it until 1973.  Yes, a draft generates public opposition to the war, but it doesn't prevent war if the people in charge are determined to fight one.  

            I think that Bush would need a major event (e.g. terrorist attack) before establishing a draft.  But once he establishes it, I think that he and his Republican successors could carry on 5-10 years of war before public pressure forced an end to the draft.

            by dtj on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:58:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Wrong approach (none / 1)

    If boshco had enough soldiers, we would already be in Syria and Iran. Giving these idiots more military cannon fodder is a terrible idea.

    by multispeed49 on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:19:50 PM PDT

  •  I'm 20 years old and support the draft 100%. (none / 0)

    Figure we'd be a lot more reluctant to wage wars of choice if we had to put our money where our mouths are.

    Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

    by Sixfortyfive on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:21:38 PM PDT

  •  I agree if....... (none / 0)

    1. There is no possibility for deferrment by the rich or connected.
    2. you can choose a non-military capacity in which to serve
    3. part of your work includes working with and training children to provide some help and relief to our school systems
    4. you are compensated/provided for in such a way as to provide a level of living that is healthy (ie well-fed, housed, clothed, etc.)
    5. everyone in the entire country is required to spend an equal amount of time
    6. as an addendem to #1, it is possible to defer the actual time that you serve for various personal reasons (sick family member, medical problem, etc.) to a later point in life, but the 2 mandatory (or whatever agreed length of time) years must be served at some point in your life to say.........be allowed to collect your SS checks or something like that........
    7. one idea would be to require people to rotate through several different types of services to gain different skills and experience a variety of different people, settings, etc. say..........3 months field work in parks, 3 months field work helping the homeless, 3 months field work tutoring a skill to children, 3 months field work doing cleanup duty/building highways, 3 months building homes, 3 month working in a hospital, and ending it all with 3 months of training new workers, and 3 months of management on the above projects. something like that..........

    by budhalite on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:23:42 PM PDT

  •  Elanor Roosevelt (none / 0)

    lobbied her husband hard for a national public service draft.  Sounds like what you're advocating.  

    Bumperstickers -- George W. Bush: Moral Midget; Howard Dean Is My Chairman; etc.

    by PatrioticallyIncorrect on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:24:26 PM PDT

  •  In all seriousness, though (none / 1)

    Glasshouse, there is a way to accomplish your goal.  Society and parents need to engrain into their kids a sense of obligation, not entitlement.

    Hubby and I have always felt that we benefitted tremendously from our time serving in the army, so we have raised our sons to know that we expect them to either serve in the military or take a couple of years and go work for an NGO, not because they "need" money for college (they don't, thanks to our hard work) but because they have a duty to give something of themselves to improve the world.  

    Ah, you ask, how do you make your kids do this?  For those in the middle or upper income brackets, the answer is easy - Money.  The oldest one never much cared for school, and we implemented an "all A's and B's if you want mom and dad to send you to college and party for four years rule."  He got through with B's and C's, graduated when he was 17, and we took him to the recruiters and to several NGO recruitment seminars.  We made it clear that he was out the door and that we weren't paying for college unless he made up for his slackness by service, so he joined the army and has been in 2 years now...and has matured about 10 years in that time.  

    For those less fortunate, the GI Bill and a civilian equivalent for the Peace Corps, Outward Bound, NGOs is the answer.

    by Sharon Jumper on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:27:30 PM PDT

  •  Has anyone actually read the diary?? (none / 1)

    There are a lot of replies that reference Iraq, poverty, boot camp, etc., but what glass house is asking for is a return to the ideals of civic service.  Quote: I want each youth to spend 2 years after high school in a national service working to help America.
      I would like them working on the national parks , our cities, rehab projects and others for the common good.

    The fact is, as a comment upthread mentions, this is not the administration to be drafting anyone for anything, but I do think glass house is on to something.  

    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

    by vansterdam on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:42:13 PM PDT

  •  I'm 65, white, male, retired,... (none / 0)

    I lived during a period time where we had a draft and volunteered. Didn't kill me.

    I lived during a time when my annual income was above the social security cap and so I would receive a little more money during the last few months of each year. I loved it. Later the tax percentage was increased and the income cap was raised and I no longer earned enough to rise above the cap amount. Didn't kill me.

    The people of America all had different stories, hardships, rewards, etc. then me. Didn't kill them.

    So you want to cry about slavery, constitutional rights, the freedoms you never earned, the rights earned always by others.....

    Well, we may have screwed this country up big time, we may have ruined all of our natural resources, we may have created enough debt whereas you'll never be debt free but you know something? You don't deserve anything.

    Reality is best served in small portions and only to others.

    by 0hio on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 02:42:36 PM PDT

    •  Thanks Ohio (none / 0)

        You said everything just right. Americans grow up with a sense of entitlement this is our biggest problem and why we are failing. wWe want to contribute nothing to the country we live in or the society that makes it possible. We want to make as much as we can, keep it all and screw anyone that says different.

      by glass house on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 03:46:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is an excellent idea and one I subscribe to (none / 0)

    myself. A number of European nations require military service - Sweden and Switzerland, to name two. And the Mormons expect two years for the church of their youth.

    It would provide the following:

    • needed benefits that our country is screaming for
    • discipline
    • a chance to harden the softness that we've made world famous
    • a bonding experience that all able-bodied American youth would share, no matter what class or color or gender.

    I'm old enough to remember that, as much as the boys disliked having to go to war, being in the military made them part of a man's club. When I was a child, just about everyone's daddy had been a soldier and you were embarassed for them if they hadn't been. Then, when I was a teenager, the boys my age were marked by Viet Nam - whether they served or not. And those that served had the tighter bond.

    I'm not pro-war and I abhor violence, but I believe that the size of this country and its diverse population adds a lot to our problems. How can we feel like Americans if we're so divided and separate?

    There's nothing wrong with public service and a lot of things right with it. It's part and parcel of family values and should be an American value. Maybe we could get a few more of our future citizens thinking of other people instead of just themselves.

    It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish. - Mother Teresa

    by paluxy1945 on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 03:08:02 PM PDT

  •  The draft (none / 0)

    The draft would bring back the protests of the 1960's and 70's.  That would be virtually guaranteed.  Many would run to Canada and I am sure we'd see parents shooting and killing authorities trying to take their kids.  These are some of the things I hear people say they will do if the draft is brought back.  Nonetheless, I support bringing it back.

    by roamer65 on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 04:09:07 PM PDT

    •  Do you drink too much to? (none / 0)

        I do, and if you read the post it is for the purpose of doing everything the people that went to Canada would have happily done. I would be the parent dying to keep my child from millitary service if our country was not attacked. I want young people to help make America what it was and can be again. By the way I live in Canada most of the year and would be providing shelter for any and all if a Military draft was put in place.

      by glass house on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 04:23:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the military draft and gains in equality (none / 0)

    As I read this, the stories of two men came to mind.

    Daniel served in WWII. Like most young men at the time, he didn't wait to be drafted. He joined to serve his country, not realizing that it would change his life. Daniel was born in a coal mining camp. After the mine shut down, his family moved frequenty in pursuit of work and he typically changed schools several times a year. He was not expected to do well in school, since he was a "dumb hillbilly." When he entered high school, he was put into a vocational agriculture program, which meant he was trained to become a farm hand. Then he graduated from high school and joined the army. The army gave him some tests and told him they wanted to send him to officer candidate school. He was sure there had been some kind of mistake and told them that, so he was sent off to basic training. He got dental care for the first time in his life. He got three square meals, also for the first time in his life, and grew several inches during his time in the service. He was told he had apptitude and finally came to believe it. He became a mechanic and then a technical sergeant. He served in the Pacific and learned to speak Japanese. After the war, he became a firefigher and was able to take college courses in his spare time, thanks to the GI bill. He rose rapidly through the ranks to become second in command of a fire department for a major city. He became a nationally known expert on the management of certain types of fire disasters. At his retirement banquet, he reflected that he probably would have spent his life scraping by in the hills of appalachia if the war had not come along.

    Charles was drafted during the Vietnam war and became a medic. He provided emergency medical care in the field to wounded before they were evacuated. After he completed his tour, he entered college -- something he had wondered about being able to afford while being raised by a single mom. Before he could complete his degree, he was re-activated and given additional training as a surgical assistant. He spent most of his time on a large evac plane that was equiped to treat burn victims during transit. He describes this as an experience that changed him into a different person. After his second discharge, he became active in the peace movement. He also finished college and went on to get a PhD. He become one of the most innovative CEO's I have ever known, as well as an influential community leader.

    I thought of these two men because both of them talked about how serving in the military had broadened their horizons and increased their social mobility. They also both believed that, while the military was a very hierarchical organization, it promoted social equality by bringing people of diverse backgrounds together in a environment where they had to depend on one another, and where wealth and family connections didn't count for much.

    I don't wish the experience of war upon anyone, and I'm reluctant to argue for any unnecessary government interference in people's lives. However, it seems to be that our nation has made its greatest gains towards social and economic equality during and immediately after wars with a military draft. I don't think this is a coincidence.

    Homeland: as in Bantustan, or as in home of the brave and land of the free?

    by homeland observer on Mon Sep 05, 2005 at 05:00:23 PM PDT

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