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I just love a good tale of religious right hypocrisy, and they don't get much better than this:

Tulsa Pastor Arrested In OKC On Lewdness Charge

OKLAHOMA CITY - An executive committee member of the Southern Baptist Convention was arrested on a lewdness charge for propositioning a plainclothes policeman outside a hotel, police said.

Lonnie Latham, senior pastor at South Tulsa Baptist Church, was booked into Oklahoma County Jail Tuesday night on a misdemeanor charge of offering to engage in an act of lewdness, police Capt. Jeffrey Becker said. Latham was released on $500 bail Wednesday afternoon.

Latham, who has spoken out against homosexuality, asked the officer to join him in his hotel room for oral sex. Latham was arrested and his 2005 Mercedes automobile was impounded, Becker said.

Calls to Latham at his church were not immediately returned Wednesday.

When he left jail, he told Oklahoma City television station KFOR:

"I was set up. I was in the area pastoring to police."

Wahahahahah! I bet you were... on your knees no doubt, looking for a little spiritual redemption.

The arrest took place in the parking lot of the Habana Inn, which is in an area where the public has complained about male prostitutes flagging down cars, Becker said. The plainclothes officers was investigating these complaints.

The lewdness charge carries a penalty of up to one year in jail and a $2,500 fine.

Latham is one of four Southern Baptist Convention executive committee members from Oklahoma.

He spoke out last year against a measure, ultimately approved by voters, to expand tribal gaming.

He has also spoken out against same-sex marriage and in support of a Southern Baptist Convention directive urging its 42,000 churches to befriend gays and lesbians and try to convince them that they can become heterosexual "if they accept Jesus Christ as their savior and reject their 'sinful, destructive lifestyle."'

The Southern Baptist Convention is the nation's largest Protestant denomination.

I think it's quite clear why he was interested in befriending gays and lesbians. But I guess "rejecting their sinful, destructive lifestyle" means not giving in to his sexual advances. You gotta wonder though if a blowjob from a Southern Baptist Pastor really will "convince them that they can become heterosexual".

Originally posted to AZnomad on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:41 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

    •  I recommended (4.00)
      I love to see these so-called people exposed.

      Say no to hate, bigotry, and the author of the Fed. Marriage Amendment, Marilyn Musgrave. Please donate to Angie Paccione.

      by OLinda on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:54:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No pun intended? n/t (none)
        •  okay (none)
          maybe there was a little thought of a pun. :)

          Guess what. I just reloaded the main page and this diary is now Number One on the reco list! Yay!

          Say no to hate, bigotry, and the author of the Fed. Marriage Amendment, Marilyn Musgrave. Please donate to Angie Paccione.

          by OLinda on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:52:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  yeah, we Kossacks (none)
            love the smell of hypocrisy in the morning! or evening, whichever...

            I second that recommendation!

            •  It's always the fag-bashers, who turn out to be (none)
              self-hating closet cases!

              Basic Psych 101: whenever they do a study, it's the homo bigots who test as bi, or having homosexual tendencies.

              Hetero men secure in their hetero-ness, tend not to act out the bigot's role as strenuously as those who have been convinced they need to hate, rather than love, who they are.

              •  Yes (none)
                I am expecting Man on Dog Santorum to be caught with a Dog at the Pound any day now.
                Sorry no pun intended....LOL!

                But you are so right about their hypocrisy and hatred.

                America was not built on fear. America was built on courage, on imagination and an unbeatable determination to do the job at hand-Harry S. Truman

                by wishingwell on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 03:51:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  you think its a coincidence his top aide (none)
                  Press Secretary Robert Traynham was outed as gay?

                  makes you wonder just how close he and Santroum were, especially since he wasn't fired after the revelation.

                  Going back to Royn Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover, there has always been a cabal self-hating Gay Republicans who have done untold damage to this country

                  Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

                  by Magorn on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 08:11:05 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  You nailed it there! (none)
                I happen to know a wife of a pastor and she said the same thing. Remember Mayor James R.West? What about the Gannon story? All these people are a bunch of lying hypocrites. They claim to be Godly. We had the same thing happen in Tampa a few years back with a church leader caught trying to pick up male hustlers. Doesn't the bible say that there are severe penalties  for using God in a false manner? We need another huge scandal like this to wake up some of the followers of the church! WARNING: If you have a penis saty out of the church!
      •  Thanks for that recommend. (4.00)
        I love airing the dirty laundry of right-wing, hypocritical bigots. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
        •  I got warm fuzzy AND tingly (none)
          And I read it out loud to several office friends...you made their morning!

          "...I believe in the power of laughter to subvert authority and promote democracy."-Kate Clinton

          by Revel on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 09:00:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  New Slang (4.00)
      "I was set up. I was in the area pastoring to police."

      So THAT'S what the kids call it these days....

      "Botched? What is that? The word of the Day?."

      by seronimous on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:56:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Is that's what it's called now? (none)
        Soooooo predictable and Soooooooo common...

        Hypocrisy hypocrisy

      •  pastoring, pestering, posturing...? (none)
        Maybe he meant to say he was in the area pestering police, because he has a "thing" for strong guys in uniforms.  

        Or maybe after he got out he said he was posturing so the police wouldn't keep him overnight because he wanted them in his hotel room rather than being a guest in their "hotel" room...?   Didn't think he'd get the tables turned on his S&M fantasies?  

        Either way, pastoring, pestering, or posturing, one down, many more like him to go.

        This does tend to support my hypothesis that the biggest bigots are also the clearest closet cases.   I just hope he's enough of an M to get some good fantasy mileage out of his time in handcuffs.  

      •  It's serious business! (none)
        Presidents have been impeached for "pastoring!"

        The Republican party: An alliance of madness and greed.

        by jem6x on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:36:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's all happening too fast. (none)
        I was just starting to get my head around that whole "pitching and catching" metaphor, and now they spring this on us.

        "Pastoring to police."  So, if you were the "pastor", that must mean the cop was the "pastee".

        How long will it be before we start seeing "Bush pastors police" bumperstickers?

        "Nothing will impede our march toward victory! Long live the Empire!" -- Cmdr. Jonathan Archer, "In a Mirror, Darkly"

        by Thomas Kalinowski on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:07:48 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Honey, let me tell you (4.00)
        I've been to the Habana Inn. And while people may go there for many reasons, believe me- pastoring to police isn't one of them.

        It's in the heart of the OKC gay district. An  old hotel whose in-house shops and bars are all different-themed gay bars. I must admit, it's a lot of fun, in its seedy way. But I never saw any police officers there.

        "Soon the time will come to choose between what is easy, and what is right." - A. Dumbledore

        by epluribus on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 10:06:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Can I lay my hands (none)
      on you head?  No, not the one on your shoulders!
    •  This diary needs a poll (4.00)
      What percentage of the clergymen who denounce homosexuality are themselves homosexual?

      5%

      10%

      20%

      50%

      100%

      "Nothing will impede our march toward victory! Long live the Empire!" -- Cmdr. Jonathan Archer, "In a Mirror, Darkly"

      by Thomas Kalinowski on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:19:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  112% (none)

        Paging Doctor Dean.

        by ABBinMI on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 10:45:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This is a serious reply: (4.00)
          Back in the 1970s, a friend of mine (male) was dating a Catholic priest. Once at lunch we got on the topic of "how many priests are gay?" and Father Rick said "80%". I thought he was kidding but he went on at length about the numbers and also about the things that go on in seminary and on retreats. But he wasn't joking around. He eventually left the priesthood.

          A few years later, another friend of mine - something of an opportunist - befriended his very wealthy, much older parish priest. A bunch of us were invited to the priest's summer cottage in P'town one afternoon. The topic again came up and the priest gave the same answer: "80%".

          About 10 years ago, two young friends of mine were taken up by a very jolly, middle-aged priest in Hartford. He had a place at the shore  and invited a bunch of us for a cookout. While he was tending the grille I casually asked" "Father Joe, how many gay priests are there?" and he said "About 80% of the priesthood is gay."  

          •  One of my best friends (4.00)
            from high school became a priest and died from AIDS several years ago- all while condeming me for getting a divorce- hypocrisy at its finest

            roseeriter

            "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

            by roseeriter on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 06:54:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wow. Consistent polling! (none)
            And a fascinating anecdote.

            I guess the poll suggested above needs a new option!

          •  Seems to me (none)
            Pope Benedict is going to have a hell of a personnel problem in light of his stupid edict.
            •  Yes... (none)
              ...the Pope is going to really have a hard time tending the flock if all the gays priests are kicked out. Of course, the vast majority of priests are "non-sexual" to the communities they minister to. But if the church wants to keep things afloat, they may have to accept heterosexuallly married priests, or - heaven forbid - women! But then the women might be gay, too.  
          •  In Moscow, (none)
            We made friends with an Episcopal priest who was teaching at the ESL school with us. After we ran into him at a members-only gay bar (we talked our way in, using the very powerful Russian phrase, "we're guests of the city!") he let us into his private life a bit more. We learned that though he knew he was gay, he thought being gay was "wrong". Such a sad life.

            One year after we left Moscow, he was murdered in his apartment. He turned out to be one of the first in a string of murders of gay foreigners.

            RIP, Steve. He was a good man. What a waste.

            "Merry Christmas in your $*&# face, $*(&ers!" - Bill O'Reilly

            by dji on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 09:29:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  bisexuality may be the issue (none)
        After being puszzled for a number of years about conservative opponents of gay rights, I've concluded that many such people must be bisexual, rather than homosexual.  Why fret so much about gay rights converting someone to a "homosexual lifestye"?  All the gay rights in the world aren't going to convert me to homosexuality, just as allthe hetero rights inthe world don't convert gay to heterosexuality.  But someone who feels both attractions but is deeply ashamed/fearful of the gay part might very well speak as some of these guys do.  
        •  I have never understood... (none)
          ...the concept of "recruiting". A person would have to have at least a slight leaning towards their own sex if they were to experiment with  same-sex activity.

          I personally think most people who say they are bisexual are mainly homosexual but like to use bi as a cover. No harm in that, really. I find women very attractive and lovely but my emotional gears only function with men.

          But the notion that a gay man could convert a truly straight man to homosexuality is absurd.

          It is interesting that in surveys, gay men tend to say they are "born gay" and lesbians often say they "choose to be gay". However, the lesbians must have at least some attraction to other women to begin with. I think the choice is not one of orientation but of acting upon it. It is difficult to imagine a truly heterosexual woman waking up one morning and saying "I think I'll find a woman to have sex with today". Also, this may be simplistic, but I think the boundaries between emotional and physical attraction might be more blurred among women so that a woman might have a powerful emotional bond with a woman friend but not consider herself a lesbian.

          All of which boils done to the question I often think about: is sexual orientation an emotional or physical matter?

        •  Don't lay this fuckers psychosis on us bisexuals (none)

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

          by Lestatdelc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 11:46:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Okay (none)
            Just on straight homosexuals then.
            •  Why not... (none)
              ...on a sexually repressive and homophobic culture which is what creates not just "the closet" but these sexually repressed folks who end up finding harmful outlets for their sexuality by clandestinely trolling for hookers?

              cheers,

              Mitch Gore

              A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

              by Lestatdelc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 05:27:28 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes (none)
                When I brought up bisexuality in the first place, I didn't do so to suggest that bisexuality itself is the cause of the problem, but rather that the repression and fear society's intolerance produces in some may manifest itself differently in those who are bisexual than in those who are homosexual.  That is, I'm not sure the genteleman under arrest is a closet/repressed/in denial homosexual as much as he may be a closet/repressed/in denail bisexual.  Either way its the closet/repression/denial that's unhealthy, brought on by the unhealthy social attitudes we agree on..
    •  in my eyes (4.00)
      besides being a hypocrite, any priest rolling around in a mercedes is obviously a shady bastard.  

      guess he had to look flashy for the lord.

      •  not a priest (none)
        Baptists don't have priests.  This may be a small or simply careless mistake, but it may also be indicative of some important unfamiliairty with religion in America.  Bitter anti-gay rhetoric doesn't usually spew from priests, among whom homosexuality may be fairly common, but from conservative ministers, many of whom, I'm guessing, struggle with bi-sexual, rather than homosexual, feelings.
    •  Two words (none)
      Ha ha.

      A conservative understands the price of everything, but the value of nothing.

      by Mephistopheles on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 02:29:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  link in 1st sentence of diary... (none)
    •  Found it... (none)

      "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

      by kredwyn on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:40:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  here is the pic (none)

      pro-life + no legislation = pro-choice

      by kennyc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:15:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'd hit it (none)
        :-)

        (couldn't resist)

        •  I wouldn't trust my teenage son... (4.00)
          ...with any of the men in these pictures. My gaydar went off violently as I perused the link.
          •  from what? (4.00)
            their pictures? i'm just curious. i'm a gay maleand I've got relatively accurate gaydar (even the most accurate gaydar can't pick a lot of us up at all anyway). i'm not being 'sensitive' or anything. i just wanna know what made your gaydar 'go off violently' when you saw their pictures. Maybe it's because they're babtist ministers? Had this been the University of Minnesota's professor list or the National Institute of Health's top scientists rather than a list of ministers, would that have made you look at them differently? Once again, please don't read what I'm saying here with any sort of belligerent tone. Sure, I guess I get prematurely frustrated with such comments. But maybe that's why I just want to know what looks gay about these guys. Personally the only thing that 'went off violently' with these picturs is a sense of good photography. Necks missing. Corners of faces missing. Are they trying to be artsy? I think they missed...
            •  yew kin jus Tale! (none)
              knowutImsayin?

              No really, onceI saw the pic I just saw this dude who was so NOT a baptist. He actually looks like a friend of mine who, shall we say, plays the whole field.

              Yeah yeah, I really don't have gaydar, I just pretend to when I know I am right...
               

              •  actually no i don't know what you're saying (none)
                i don't see how any of them 'look gay' from these oddly cropped photographs. do they 'look' like they lisp, or have limp wrists, or are flamey? to me they 'look' like any other guys. i don't get any impression what their sexual preference is from these pictures. maybe i missed something.

                some of the 'gayest' guys i know are straight and comfortably so. some of the 'straightest' guys i know are gay and comfortably so. (the single quotes represent what stereotypes lead people to believe). it never gets assumed that i'm gay yet i am. for my friend C__, it rarely is assumed that he's straight, yet he is. so, you know, i'm still curious how this all, you know... works.

                •  om (none)
                  g my gaydar just exploded
                •  'sexual preference'? (none)
                  "sexual preference" is the language of those who run 'exodus' programs that try to 'turn gays straight' through treatment and jesus...

                  i prefer earl grey tea with a dash of milk.
                  i prefer steak medium well.
                  i prefer polartec fleece to wool.

                  my sexual orientation isn't a matter of preference.

                  otherwise, i take your excellent point.

                  •  language slip (none)
                    i am gay. that is my sexual orientation not my sexual preference. i slipped. i said sexual preference when i meant sexual orientation. my point got entirely missed. ah well. sorry for the slip up.
                •  those photos (none)
                  Are oddly cropped...good observation!  Who the hell decided to chop off parts of people's heads and ears and stuff, yet leave blank background totally intact?  Weirdo's

                  "Maybe you know something I don't know." -- G Dub (-4.38,-3.03)

                  by don the tin foil on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 06:37:18 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  its because hard-rightwingers (4.00)
                    are visually and spatially challenged.  Think about it:

                    How many truly gifted and creative artists are produced by the wingnuttery...?

                    I believe--with no hard evidence to support myself-- that there is an inversely proportional relationship between conservatism and aptitude for visual arts and music.

                    Why don't conservatives seem to value these things as much as others?  I think it's because they truly DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM?

                    Just a little theory I'm working on...

                •  I really have no clue (none)
                  I mean, you know, I guess I could say I have the following:

                  Bigotar
                  Niggadar
                  gang-bangodar
                  Wetbackodar
                  Stupid-Blondodar
                  Islamodar
                  Qwickie-mart-ownin-Punjabodar

                  -and-

                  gaydar

                  It's simply prejudice at the end of the day.

            •  They do all look kinda pithy (none)
              Like a soft carrot! I saw it too. Part of the reason is the fact that they are trying to NOT look gay. The good pastor looks like he's trying way too hard to look like a tough guy of some kind. They look like they are playing roles but their gayness is seeping out.
              Don't take this as anti-gay, I love gays, just not the ones that hate.
          •  When I seen the dudes picture... (1.00)
            I thought I was gonna get whiplash with the way my Gaydar went off.  And my Gaydar isn't nearly is good  as my wife's either, I am not gonna show her his picture she might blow up all of Waco when her Gaydar goes off.
          •  Strange confession... (4.00)

            "I wouldn't trust my teenage son...

            ...with any of the men in these pictures. My gaydar went off violently as I perused the link"


            So you're saying that , gay = predatory paedophile?

            Or are you saying that your son is some kinda slutpuppy who's hot for any big ol' daddy that he lays eyes on?

            Either way, it doesn't look too good for you, does it?
            •  excellent point (none)
              I was too busy ranting about how the few people who posted right above you had their gaydar go off the charts when they saw the pics of the men in those pictures to realize the whole weight of those words. well said, pasternek.
            •  yeah, that comment (none)
              leapt out at me.  I wonder if he would have made a similar comment about not trusting them around his teen-age DAUGHTER had he thought those ministers looked straight.

              explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

              by bluestatesam on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 10:44:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I believe most gay men ARE attracted and tempted (none)
              by a nice looking teenage boy, just as straight men are attracted to and tempted by a nice looking teenage girl. Pedophilia involves attraction to CHILDREN who have not yet reached puberty.
              ----------------------------------------------
              The APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 4th edition, Text Revision gives the following as its "Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia":

              Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children.
              ---------------------------------------------

              So you WOULD do good to keep your teenage son away from the good pastor, NOW that we know he is out of control and promiscuous to the point of risking his career by soliciting sex with any stranger he finds attractive at the local gay hangout.

              •  The statement was about (none)
                any of the men in the ministry. The implied suggestion is that they are gay men (closeted) so they want to have sex with teenage boys.

                The implication is that gay men are sexual predators towards underage boys or teens. Do you worry about your daughter being around heterosexual ministers?

                cheers,

                Mitch Gore

                A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                by Lestatdelc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 11:55:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  If they troll the streets at night looking (none)
                  for any girl they can find and then find themselves in jail for it, and then lie and say they were preaching to the whores, then YES I would be afraid for my teen to associate with him. Anyone who did what the pastor did should stay away from my teens, both male and female, this person has shown himself to be out of control. That was known to ALL who read this diary and it was the point of my original comment, if you'd care to read it. (again?)
                  •  That is NOT what the porginal comment was (none)
                    I.E. only this guy trolling for anonmious sex from someoone who was presnting themselves as a hooker.

                    The points you raise about the guy being out-of-coptnrol I can accept at face value and would actively concur with, but that was NOT what the original comment in question was over. it was in the context of "I wouldn't trust my teenage son with any of the men in these pictures."

                    cheers,

                    Mitch Gore

                    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                    by Lestatdelc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 05:25:23 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly (none)
              the issue I had with the post.  There are a few posts in this overall thread that leak a certain discriminatory air - subtle, but definitely there.
          •  your point being... (none)
            that gay men are pedophiles?

            explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

            by bluestatesam on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 10:41:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  can't they crop a picture right? (none)
        what's up with all the pictures cutting off part of the individuals' faces?

        they must be hiding something!

        we'd better decide now if we are going to be fearless men or scared boys.
        — e.d. nixon, montgomery improvement association

        by zeke L on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:35:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it was an "artistic" touch (none)
          this is what jumped off at me as being very strange on that page. It just looks weird but I'm one of those people that likes "even" things ;-)

          Maybe this is what made other's "gaydar" go off?

      •  At least he wasn't the youth minister (none)
      •  Do like I did - (none)
        Sign up for their newsletter, just to see what "comes up".
      •  wrt nothing (none)
        Is there any particular reason this church can't frame a headshot?

        "Who made america leader of the free world? I voted for Belgium" Eddie Izzard

        by ewan husarmee on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 01:55:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  toooo funny (4.00)
    remins me of Marion Barry:

    "I was set up..."

    love the part about his Mercedes...

    •  I thought the same thing (4.00)
      "Bitch set me up."
      •  the difference this time is... (4.00)
        he wanted to BE the "bitch"
        •  We can really do without... (3.16)
          ...your infantile disgusting attempt at a joke.

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

          by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:20:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, let's be nice. (3.69)
              As nicely as I can, may I ask you to please refrain from making lewd jokes that reference gay sex, which seems to only add to the common bigot's misapprehension that what's really laughable and embarrassing and disgusting about this is the "gay sex" part, rather than what rally IS, which is the hypocrisy and hate?

              Thank you. I'd really appreciate it.

              : )

              •  like I said... (4.00)
                 I think you guys have taken a much more negative interpretation that I intended...but if it pisses you off this much...troll rate it and make it go away
                •  Not pissed off. (3.00)
                  And don't you talk to ME thataway, buster -- I've got a migraine and am not afraid to use it as an excuse to lay a little rantage on you.

                  (You have to picture me in my old-lady nightgown and giant black sunglasses, hunched over the keyboard and shaking a bony old finger at you while I say that...)

                  : )

                  •  well rant away then (4.00)
                    if it helps your headache...rant away

                    but seriously...I'd be happy if people would just troll rate that remark out of existence... it's not worth debating

                    •  WOW. I missed a pie fight... (none)
                      Little did I know.

                      For the record, I wasn't "offended" by your comment. Very little offends me. I was simply taking the first logical opportunity to make my usual plea, which I ought to stop making in threads like this one, because it inevitably results in the anti=PC police coming out in droves. As if I'M a pc nut.

                      i'm terribly sorry you got dragged into this -- I should have just made my comment to the world at large, rather than as a response to yours -- yours wasn't even in the top 50% of the worst "offenders," so to speak.

                      Parenthetically, it's interesting how many people continue to argue with a person who has obviously left the playing field -- this is my first return to this discussion since making that "granny" comment -- which, by the way, was meant in a purely lighthearted, "let's nip this in the bud, I'm not angry, are you" kind of way...

                      Ah, well. Again, I'm sorry I dragged you into this. I know perfectly well you're not a homophobe. I was just hoping that, for once, we could have a thread about one of these hypocritical assholes that DIDN'T devolve into snarling double entendres about gay sex, masquerading as the mockery of hypocrisy.Your comment wasn't offensive in and of itself -- it was just the tip of the iceberg, if you get my meaning.

                  •  Daily Kos, Yes (none)
                    My Left Wing, no more.  At least for now.
                •  You people need to stop (4.00)
                  trying to police the entire blog looking for any excuse whatsoever to try to get offended by something.

                  You do your own movement a disservice.  Stop being such whiny...um..."bitches."

                  Go ahead--troll rate me.  I'm tired of this crap.

                  And before you call me a sexist homophobe, understand that many of my friends are either women or homosexual.  The last thing this blog needs is more PC police.

                •  I agree. (3.80)
                  I apologize for thinking that jokes about sex are funny... but then, they are.

                  I apologize for being contributing to bigotry... But I don't.

                  Finally, I apologize for being a straight white dude... but wait, that's totally fucked up.

                  I don't dump on gays. I don't dump on women or any other group.

                  Gays (and women and blacks) get dumped on in our society because it was set up that way by a handful of rich, powerful people who happen to resemble me.

                  I didn't have a goddamned thing to do with it. If being white was ever an advantage me (it probably was) being dirt fucking poor sure as shit wasn't.

                  I had to struggle for what I've got and I'm damn lucky to have it. Many never even had that chance. My own experience with the cruelty of this world tells me that the answer is to weaken the grip on political and economic power held by a very few white men (who are almost all direct descendants of the original white men) and give everybody a fighting chance to succeed.

                  In fact, it was the New Deal that led to the increased equality we now enjoy (I have no doubt I would have remained poor and uneducated had I lived in 19th Century America, white man or not) and it is only through the protection of a strong middle class that real justice will ever be achieved in this country.

                  But you don't get that. All you have is anger. You're mad because a minority of heterosexual white men set up an unfair and prejudicial society. Now, you figure the solution is to punish anybody who happens to be a white male heterosexual, censor us, tell us we're bad people.

                  Well it's bullshit. You're wrong. Dead wrong. Gay people laugh just as hard if not harder at this kind of stuff. Because it's fucking hilarious. It's normal to be that way. It's totally not normal and unhealthy to hold it back.

                  Gay jokes don't oppress people. Unrealistic expectations of "morally superior behavior" such as you are constantly demanding won't liberate anybody. In fact, fighting amounst ourselves over these kind of trivial non-issues is precisely what makes it possible for rich and powerful people to remain in charge.

                  While we're busy bitching at each other about gays or abortion or, well, just about anything to do with sex... they're busy rigging the political process in their favor.

                  I'll stop with the gay sex humor when you demonstrate to me how it will solve the problems of this world. Until then, you and MaryScott can both go and shove it up your ass. Sideways.

                  I used to like you guys. But you're just as sanctimonius (and misguided) as the fundamentalist nuts on the right.

                  Just because you're offended by it doesn't make it wrong.

                  "I am not a crook" - The Honorable Richard M. Nixon

                  by tricky dick on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:27:16 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Seriously? (none)
                    "While we're busy bitching at each other about gays or abortion or, well, just about anything to do with sex... they're busy rigging the political process in their favor."

                    If that's the case, then why does it matter if we're bitching at each other or not? If they've rigged everything, then what's the point?

                    Republicans bitch at each other all the time. You don't have to get along harmoniously to get things done.

                    "Gay people laugh just as hard if not harder at this kind of stuff."

                    The problem with that is that one group of people may laugh at something, but that's because they also face the criticism and the abuse of those jokes. They're using the jokes on themselves to take the sting off. It's the same as blacks who call each other by the n word.

              •  this is bullshit (4.00)
                Why are you picking on RumsfeldResign when this kind of humor has been rampant all over this place for SEVERAL months now?  I can't even tell you how many fucking times I've had to read jokes about Rove or Libby or anyone potentially indictable being somebody's "prison bitch".  I mean, OK, har de har har.  Not my sense of humor, but whatever, I've tuned it out by now.  Why haven't you?

                Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

                by hrh on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:07:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  You know what? (none)
                there's not a gay man, top or bottom, whom I know (and living in Hollywood, I know lots) who would be remotely offended by that hilarious comment.

                If a gay man on this site wants to step up and declare that he is offended, so be it.  But please don't deign to express indignation for them.

                It was pretty funny, actually.

            •  No problems with playing nice (4.00)
              It is the lurid jokes about passive or recipient men in male on male sex acts being termed or viewed as "bitches" which is not only derogatory but misogynistic to boot that I hope we can avoid.

              And not to say I am not above chortling and reveling in this closet-cases "ooops" moment exposing him for the self-loathing hypocritical scum-bag that really needs some serious therapy and not the "reparative" kind.

              Let's just not skid off into the ditch and be sexist and degrading towards "bottoms" and misogynistic as well while we are at it... deal?

              cheers,

              Mitch Gore

              A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

              by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:43:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  well thank you (none)
                but...both of you are interpreting what I said in a totally different way than I intended

                if it bothers you...go ahead and troll rate it

                •  Not troll rating you (none)
                  Trying to point it out to you so you can see the context and root of the joke being harmful, even if that was not your intent.

                  I know (or at least strongly suspect) that wasn't your intent. This is why I am responding and explaining and not troll rating you. Not getting up in your grill about it, just pointing it out and giving you food for thought (I hope).

                  cheers,

                  Mitch Gore

                  A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                  by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:58:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I understand (none)
                    and that's why I'm giving people the option to make something that annoys them disappear and go "poof"

                    it only takes a couple zeroes....and my life will not collapse if I lose TU status for a day

                    •  It isn't that I am annoyed (4.00)
                      It's that you (and I am sure many others) don't see the root basis for the "joke" being harmful and part f the problem with homophobia. Not that you are homophobic or anything, just that those sorts of small little things do subtly add up in the cultural zeitgeist.

                      Not attacking you, shaming you, getting pissed off, etc. As I said, food for thought (not just for you but the community in general).

                      Now shut up and let's hoist a brew!

                      ;-)

                      cheers,

                      Mitch Gore

                      A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                      by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:08:09 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I really appreciate your attitude (none)
                      thank you.  Most of the time when you tell someone their remark might be offensive even if not intended that way, they get all defensive and obnoxious.  
                      Thank you for trying to understand and be accepting of the other point of view.
                      •  well..this is the problem with racism/bigotry (none)
                        when we tell "Blonde" jokes...people don't get too upset because it's clearly "just a joke"...and one reason it's so easily recognized as a joke is that Blondes aren't subjected to a lot of bias

                        but when you tell jokes about people who are treated badly...then there are a brazillion different ways people can take it

                        •  True (4.00)
                          But it is also more than that... the "bitch" joke was also about prison rape and stigmatizing (intent or not) the recipient in male/male sex as being lower than lowly female dogs. As Theresa's post further provided the context for.

                          As I said, it is rooted in a  whole host of gender role assumptions, biases and phobias which are deeply ingrained in the culture and, I posit, the root of a vast amount of societies ills, from spousal abuse, most violent crimes, even war. Sexual repression/unhealthy aggression and "domination" based on gender/sexual  supremacy is deeply rooted in the human psyche even with biologically predisposition. It is the root of territoriality, greed, hoarding, which are the root cause of tribalism, conflict, etc.

                          Attaching social stigma, even in though the "joke" was a passing relatively "harmless" one, does (I posit) add to that stigmatization and normalization of such stigmas.

                          I certainly have no illusions that by simply eliminating such jokes or being the "PC language police" will solve the problems of ht human condition, but I do think those are discussions and things to digest and ponder.

                          Anyway, I need to head out for now.

                          cheers,

                          Mitch Gore

                          A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                          by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:31:46 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  how is a reference to male-on-male sex (4.00)
                "misogynistic"?

                Please explain.

                Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

                by hrh on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:08:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  the term bitch (3.25)
                  it means female breeding dog.  It's a derogatory name to call a women, to equate her to a dog suitable for breeding.  
                  When you call a gay man a bitch, you are using bitch in a derogatory manner.. "your so low, you are not even a woman, you are a worthless "bitch", the lowest of all females".
                  •  words mean many things however (none)
                    sure...people can interpret a word to mean awful things...

                    anyway....this often seems to be a huge area of debate -- what's more important?...what someone meant...or how someone else interpreted something

                    •  That is what the word means (none)
                      it can mean nothing else.  Bitch... a bad female, even if you don;t realize where the term first came from or that it's purpose it to dehumanize women.

                      I understand that this is not what you meant to say.  But never the less, the way you used the term bitch was to say that someone who "takes it", who is "weaker" or vitimized", the "passive partner" (all images suggesting of feminization)is insulting both to gay men and women.

                      •  that's not how language works (none)
                        words have many meanings and interpretations...that's why we have words like "connotation" and "denotation" etc etc

                        there are very few situations where you can say "it can mean nothing else"

                        this is your interpretation:

                        "But never the less, the way you used the term bitch was to say that someone who "takes it", who is "weaker" or vitimized", the "passive partner" (all images suggesting of feminization)is insulting both to gay men and women."

                        that's not the only way to interpret what I said

                        remember...inference and implication are very different things

                        anyway..thanks for letting me know how you feel

                      •  Teresa, we're now all joining (none)
                        somewhere below this post to have some pizza and beer.

                        Come join us!

                        Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

                        by hrh on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 10:45:41 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Alright I've had enough of this (none)
                        Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! ... Bitch!

                        American Engineer :== loser!

                        by jnmorgan on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 08:48:59 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  so when I say to my male lover (none)
                    "so now I'm your bitch" referring to something that happened during the day, and we both giggle, we are engaging in misogynistic and gay-bashing language? I actually do appreciate the intent to not demean people, but it's part of human nature to use "offensive" language to make a point. To be sure, using it on a blog brings on risks cuz you can't communicate the intimacy and tenderness I can with my guy when we're next to each other. But I still don't take the offense you and others seem to by the simple use of the language.

                    I guess this post is in defense of language as a creative medium. Offensive language is an integral part of the arsenal. Don't take it away, please!

                    (and for the record, when a frat boy tries to play this game, he always loses)

                    All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                    by SeanF on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:09:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  also (none)
                      meanings evolve over time.  Take the word "queer"...which is really no longer offensive, as it is now used almost exclusively by gays.  In fact, a self identified "queer" is really a very proud-to-be-gay-if-you-don't-like-it-gofuckyourself guy.

                      A lot of gay men call each other 'bitch'...the word...whatever its original meaning...no longer means what it once did.  To accuse someone of being homophobic by tracing back the history of a word is, I think, a stretch, at least in this particular instance.

                      explain how letting gays marry will directly affect your own heterosexual relationship?

                      by bluestatesam on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 11:05:29 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  You are engaging in sexist language (none)
                      bitch is a sexist term even when you are using it.
                    •  let's put it this way (none)
                      I have heard of the word Faggot said to someone right before they got their teeth kicked in.  Maybe we can find a funny way to use the word faggot in jokes and pretend it means something besides an insulting and demeaning way to refer to gay men.
                      You may use it in conversation with other gay men.  But I doubt you find it funny when straight men call each other faggot as an insult.
                      Like I said to someone else...when men call a women a bitch during an argument or during rape... we women know exactly what the word means.
                      •  i call my friends fag (none)
                        sometimes. The thing is, the language is there whether you are about to get your teeth bashed in or whether you are about to get a hug. That says to me the language is not causing violence. Sick unhealthy people cause violence.

                        Most importantly, I fucking hate taboos - things you can't do or words you can't utter. It gives things power that they should never have. It's the equivolant of when Christians say 'you can't question that--that's holy.' And that's what you are doing.

                        All extremists are irrational and should be exposed

                        by SeanF on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 09:11:39 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  It isn't (4.00)
                  It is referring to the recipient male as a "bitch" which is misogynistic. Though this PIQ didn't do but others on this thread have. Just pointing it out in the larger context of homophobia/misogyny which are interrelated with gender roles and insecurities thereof for segments of people in society.

                  cheers,

                  Mitch Gore

                  A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

                  by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:15:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  What is this? (none)
            The DLC blog we only criticize other Democrats?
          •  it's just a joke (none)
            geez, lighten up.
            •  Just a joke (none)
              "What do you say to a woman with two black eyes...? Nothing, she has already been told twice."

              Yeah... let's chortle away, spousal abuse is something that is also hysterically funny.

              BTW, I wasn't getting up in the PIQs grill over it, was calmly and patiently engaging in dialog with the PPIQ about the joke and its basis and why we should all think a little more about what the joke really says (intent or not) and use it as food for thought. So spare me the lighten up crappola. I have no need to "lighten up" since I am not the one flipping out over it and in knee-jerk fashion dismissing it.

              cheers,

              Mitch Gore

              A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

              by Lestatdelc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 12:50:25 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Holy Hijacked Thread, Batman! n/t (4.00)
    •  I just wish this arrest (none)
      had also been captured on camera like Barry's. I would have loved to see that one looped on CNN for the next 48 hours.

      And if Southern Baptists are as forgiving as Barry's DC constituents, expect this guy to be the next leader of the SBC Executive Committee. And if that happens, I suspect a majority of committee dealmaking wil be conducted "under the table" .

  •  You forgot your (none)
    link

    Are they all closet cases?  

  •  BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!! n/t (4.00)

    Republicans - For Saddam until they were against him.

    by calipygian on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:41:35 PM PST

  •  Huh... (none)
    Habana Inn, I used to live in Okla. city. There's only one reason people go to the Habana Inn.
  •  Not just that but... (4.00)
    Latham, who has spoken out against homosexuality, asked the officer to join him in his hotel room for oral sex. Latham was arrested and his 2005 Mercedes automobile was impounded, Becker said.

    I wonder what Jesus would think about church leaders driving around in a 2005 Mercedes while people are trying to feed and clothe their families.

  •  What can (4.00)
    I say?What can I say? Hypocrite?Nah he's a rethug. This is priceless.

    it tastes like burning...

    by eastvan on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:47:31 PM PST

  •  hahahaha! (none)
    I am never surprised! It is sooo typical! The lying hypocrites!

    Say no to hate, bigotry, and the author of the Fed. Marriage Amendment, Marilyn Musgrave. Please donate to Angie Paccione.

    by OLinda on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:48:08 PM PST

  •  What? No mug shot? (4.00)
    What is sad is his church will probably believe him.  That he was set up.  Yeah right.
  •  No no no (4.00)
    He didn't ask him back to his hotel room for oral sex, he asked him back to his hotel room to tell him about Oral Roberts!
  •  He will try to use this (4.00)
    He will probably try to become "ex-gay" and ask people to send him $$$ to help him during his "recovery".

    Typical of these bigots. Most of the people who are virulently anti-gay are either acting this way because they want to profit financially and gain power, or because they are gay themselves.

  •  A Mercedes??? (none)
    It was such a lucrative scam.

    The good pastor is surely ready for a dose of his own medicine!

  •  Shocked I tell you shocked, shocked, shocked... (4.00)
    Now, that I have had a few minutes to recover from my shock, I have two theories.

    One it is liberal media bias and the pastor is actually a gay loving faggot. God why does the Liberal Media hate God Fearing Merican's so much.  

    My other theory it is some how Bill Clinton's fault!  I mean Bill Clinton was only the best President is US history to date ya know.

  •  the operative verb (4.00)
    ""I was set up. I was in the area pastoring to police."

    Is "pastoring" something one does with your penis out?  

  •  Sweet Jesus! (4.00)
    My jaw dropped when I read this on the Washington Blade's website earlier this evening.

    What is it with all these loony anti-gay creeps all being closet cases?  

    Why, Lord, why?

    I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! The AA stands for Ann Arbor.

    by Matt in AA on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:51:11 PM PST

    •  Don't leave your jaw in that position... (4.00)
      ...around this gay.

      [This commentor is gay and has a year round pass to snide jokes about gay sex involving pastors. Card on file. Pass Number 73483023f82920489]

      "What luck for rulers that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler

      by Bensdad on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:05:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hardy har har har (4.00)
        I've got a year round pass, too!  Except I'm too midwestern to make jokes about gay sex in (semi) public!  

        I limit myself to Barbra and Judy jokes and vast stereotyping.

        I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! The AA stands for Ann Arbor.

        by Matt in AA on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:21:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Straight 'Ben' to Gay 'Ben' -- (none)

         You're all right.  Take care.  

        BenGoshi
        ___________________

         P.S. -- And I won't be a hypocrite and rant against "gayness" then go and solicit sex from a boy in a hotel parking lot if you won't teach in a Jr. High School and try and seduce young and vulnerable youths into believing in evolution, gravity, the minimum wage and other such satanic precepts.

        BG

        . . . religion is not a syllogism, but a poem. H.L. Mencken

        by BenGoshi on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:38:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  hey can I borrow that card? (4.00)
        just for tonight
  •  On the 8th day (4.00)
    God created the hypocrite.

    "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

    by Mike S on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:52:04 PM PST

  •  Maybe I'm dim, but (4.00)
    unless there's something to this charge that I'm missing, I don't see where he broke the law.  The article doesn't say he offered to pay, does it?  Is is that implicit?  Does it say it straight out and I'm missing it?  Because otherwise, just asking someone to go back to your room (as opposed to a public place) and do whatever should not be illegal.  
  •  Mug shot (none)
    mug shot!Maybe the Southern Baptist Org is a thinly disguised Gay recruitment organization.

    it tastes like burning...

    by eastvan on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 05:52:14 PM PST

  •  Can we get Tom Coburn to comment? (4.00)
    I thought all the gays were in high school bathrooms according to him.
  •  I do feel sorry for the guy... (4.00)
    being forced to solicit a police officer outside of a hotel.

    If his church would just have a "social" where gay guys could cruise in a tax-exempt locale then there wouldn't be a problem... would there?

    /semi snark off

    •  you're right...it's only SEMI-snark (none)
      the truth is, if my tribe could have a sense of normalcy (a "variation" not an "abomination"), I suspect we'd all act pretty much like all these 'hetrosexuls'.  Would have been nice to take a guy to the prom and learn the social niceties of dating when I was in high school ;-).

      "God grant that not only the love of liberty but a thorough knowledge of the rights of man may pervade all the nations of the earth." -- Benj. Franklin

      by billlaurelMD on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:11:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well he supported the idea to (4.00)
      "befriend" gays and lesbians and try to convert them. Now we see just how much he wanted to touch these guys in a place down deep.
  •  perhaps he (4.00)
    will have to give up the benz to pay legal fees.Nah, he'll just bilk church members.

    it tastes like burning...

    by eastvan on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:01:21 PM PST

  •  now (none)
    if it could only be turdblossem. that guy creeps me out. There is a secret there.

    it tastes like burning...

    by eastvan on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:04:34 PM PST

  •  does this mean he's now a sexual predator... (4.00)
    in the eyes of the law?  

    I don't know what the laws are in that state, but in some states (too much of a hurry to comment before the thought drips out of my head to get the facts on the laws) grown ups who proposition members of the same sex and get caught (does this ever happen to straight people? ) by the police get it marked permanently on their record that they are predators and get treated like pedaphiles who got released from prison.  Can't live near a school or work around children because of this, even though children were not involved.

    Just wondering.  He'd be up a creek if so.  Maybe that would force him to become a gay rights advocate.

  •  Typical... (none)
    bwaaaaaa, "I was set up!"

    what a Load. these phony-baloney moralist types are almost all the same-- in private they are completely depraved deviants.

    "Apparently, the person had been killed by a falling graveyard." Steve Coll The New Yorker

    by Superpole on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:13:12 PM PST

    •  In private he's a gay man . . . (none)
      is that what makes him a "completely depraved deviant"?

      Color me confused.

      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! The AA stands for Ann Arbor.

      by Matt in AA on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:24:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're saying (4.00)
        depraved deviant like it's a bad thing?

        Res Ipsa Loquitur, and you know what I'm talking about.

        by justme on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:52:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, golly, (none)
          that's because that's the term people use against people like me when they're busy passing state constitutional amendments to outlaw any possibility of marriage or whatnot.  

          Not that I have anything wrong with deviants.  Some of my best friends are deviants . . .  

          I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! The AA stands for Ann Arbor.

          by Matt in AA on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:07:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  superpole (none)
        has insider information...

        what we have been discussing is public,  
        superpole should say where the infomation about private lives comes from

      •  deviance (none)
        I think it's the "paying for the services of random sex partners" that qualifies the fine pastor as a "completely depraved deviant".  Or perhaps "living a lie".  You pick.  I feel pretty good about either option.
        •  Don't know about gay community norms... (none)

          ...but I always thought that most hookups that involved the lowering of a zipper and did not involve a cash transfer involved at least a few minutes of courting and perhaps some conversation over drinks or coffee.  
      •  Gay or Straight-- (none)
        attempting to pick someone up off the street is depraved, IMHO. perhaps it's considered normal behavior in your neck of the woods.

        "Apparently, the person had been killed by a falling graveyard." Steve Coll The New Yorker

        by Superpole on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 07:27:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No dice (none)
          Sorry, that's not normal behavior in my neck of the woods.  I suppose I'm just overly sensitive about people using "deviant" or "depraved" to describe gay folks--even if they're doing something that I wouldn't do in a million years.

          Picking up someone off the street--any more depraved than a straight or gay person picking up a stranger in a bar?    

          I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! The AA stands for Ann Arbor.

          by Matt in AA on Fri Jan 06, 2006 at 07:39:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I wonder who set up who (none)
      It's also plausible that he was cruising for a nice gay man to get into a tight space only to talk to him about Jesus... lol  In that case, he would not have been set up; he'd have been setting up the solicited individual.  

      But if he were pastoring to the police???  How did he know the other guy was a policeman??  It would make more sense to say that he was pastoring to the gay prostitutes.  But no... Yonder comes another hypocrite.  Sad.  

      As you wash your face, the water slipping through your fingers, a prayer: Water, softest thing on earth, gentleness that wears away rock. --E Bass

      by JOyODurham on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:35:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  While I would love to gloat about this (4.00)
    the fact remains that the world is not just seeing a bigot, but a self-hating bigot, who feels the need to denounce people who are just like himself. And when guys like this get caught, they are always on the down low, acting in the most sleazy fashion because they don't want to get caught. And what does this show to the world? That a lot of gay people are not just sleazy, but liars who believe that who they are is shameful.

    This man is a fellow homosexual and unfortunately he reflects poorly on us.

    All I could hope for is that people will put two and two together and realize that being dishonest and hypocritical is not in the nature of gay people. Rather too many feel compelled to act as such to save face. But I'm probably hoping for too much.

    •  The people who think that gays are sleaze (4.00)
      are taught that in part by self-hating garbage like this guy. So maybe this will make some of them question what they are taught. Probably not, but anything is possible.
    •  well said... (none)
      A perspective that isn't heard that often.

      unfortunatly, I really wanted to gloat but now I just...can't.

      "We ought never to do wrong when people are looking." Twain

      by dougymi on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:22:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Please, still gloat! (none)
        People like this make the lives of many (not just gays) a living hell. I have no problem gloating.
        •  I agree (none)
          No problem with gloating.. just with lame jokes about some prison rape scenario making him "someone's bitch" though he would like it kinda shit.

          cheers,

          Mitch Gore

          A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

          by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:34:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I feel the same way (none)
            That's long been a problem on DKos (and in everyday life), but I haven't seen that type of humor in this thread. I hope the jokes I've made haven't come across that way.
            •  Not at all (none)
              Making jokes about his hypocrisy and even lewd jokes about the sex aspect of it is something I even giggle about. It is the idea that prison rape is funny, or that men in the receptive role in male/male sex are "bitches" is where I say, time-out, step back, and realize that isn't nor should it be funny.

              Bad puns, and even jokes of a sexual innuendo nature are not offensive to me, and if it's a good zinger, worth a laugh myself.

              As I said, prison rape, and men who have sex with men being "bitches" is where it suddenly and seriously stops being funny.

              cheers,

              Mitch Gore

              A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

              by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:54:43 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  prison joke? (none)
            dude....don't exaggerate
            •  Prison joke about male rape (none)
              Not funny.

              So would it be funny if a woman was arrested for prostitution (or anything for that matter) and sent to prison so she could be raped?

              There is nothing funny about it and I sincerely suggest you step back and take a look at it.

              cheers,

              Mitch Gore

              A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

              by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:50:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't know (none)
                It may not be humor, but to take an individual who is in a position of power- especially a position he arrived at while lying, and to put HIM into a position where he is at an ultimate loss of power can be cathartic.  

                I would never wish that sort of thing on anybody, but it is much different than the scenario you are describing in comparison.  Women, especially prostitutes, are never in a position of power.  

              •  can you explain, please (none)
                I'm trying to understand.  The prison-rape jokes have been so commonplace here, before and throughout all the Fitzmas indictments stuff, and they continue anytime a mention is made of prison sentences - several came up in the Abramoff scandal discussions.  I've never found them funny, but at this point I've tuned them out.  Why is this suddenly different?

                Is it because the man in question is actually gay?  Or at least - soliciting gay sex?  

                If so, I can understand where you're coming from.  But please don't criticize posters for continuing in the same theme of humor - tasteless as it may be - that has already been going on for a long time.

                Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

                by hrh on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:26:34 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  wasn't suggesting rape (none)
                but I see your point

                and...where's the pizza?

              •  Once More on the "Bitch" Question (none)
                I thought about this above, and seeing the issue come up again, I guess I have to ask.

                Is it also problematic when a buddy of mine (a militant leftist, by the way) telling me about some guy who has got him worked up, purrs (yes, that's the verb): "Oh I just want to worship him; I want to be his bitch."

                Should I not be laughing?  In doing so, am I perpetuating something problematic?

                Or is this an example of him (re-)claiming language?

                On another note: I have trouble rejoicing about this guy, even the hypocrisy exposed.  I so much want to believe that gay men and our society in general are moving beyond this kind of repression.  I look forward to the day when no one is as confused (I mean, fucked up) as this guy must be about sexuality.  

              •  Mitch ........I thought you went out (none)
                to get the pizza.  

                "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

                by Lying eyes on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:01:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  No (none)
      Really, I don't see it that way at all! I just see a lying, hypocrite.

      I think the more people who are exposed like this shows that gay people are everywhere and that the conventional wisdom is a big fat lie. All of us have character flaws, straights and gays, and this guy has a big character flaw in that he lies about what being gay is. He contributes to the lie, and it is good that he is exposed.

      Well, I just don't know what to say, really, except that this news is good, not bad.

      Say no to hate, bigotry, and the author of the Fed. Marriage Amendment, Marilyn Musgrave. Please donate to Angie Paccione.

      by OLinda on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:35:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bad people come in all packages (none)
      This is no different than the abusive husband who makes nice with his wife in public.

      I agree, though, that this could send the message that gay people can stoop to particularly low levels.  But I don't think this guy's parishoners will conclude that first...I think they'll feel betrayed by a religious leader and hopefully be angered by the hypocrisy, before condeming him as a gay.

      That doesn't sound too much more appetizing as a result, I know.  I can say with ease that 90% of my friends are gay.  I don't want anything to hurt them.  But I see a trend here with psycho wingnut fundofascists being outted on a regular basis.

    •  He's not sleazy because he's gay (4.00)
      He's sleazy because he's a holier-than-thou hypocritical fundy, denouncing others for doing openly what he sneaks around to do privately.  That it happens to be gay sex he's sneaking around to do matters only because he's spoken out against gays specifically.  So, don't worry that it reflects poorly on gays, it only refects poorly on fundy evangelists; we have plenty of heterosexual examples as well.
      •  I understand what you're saying (none)
        Of course I see it that way, too. But people see what they want to see and can twist a situation to fit their own agendas.

        While we all see his hypocritical behavior as a reflection of his fundamentalist hypocricy, the fundamentalists see his deceit as a reflection of his homosexuality. Rather than this example shedding light on the flaws in their own thinking, it merely reinforces their prejudices against us.

        I guess the point of my original post was that, no matter how much I love seeing these holier-than-thou assholes being revealed for who they really are, none of it is probably going to register on the other side. We're all reinforcing our own prejudices. I want to gloat, but what will it achieve? No one comes out of this any better and no minds will be changed on the other side. In fact, I only fear the other side will grow more certain in their bigotry.

        •  This news doesn't make them more certain (none)
          of the innocence of the guilty and the guilt of the innocent, their own utter irrationality does, and there's nothing we can do about that.  So be reassured, those "made more certain" are the slenderest minority of religious folks, and no matter how vocal they become to try to seem more influential, their spittle-flecked invective convinces no one not already convinced and disgusts many fellow Christians(almost as much as yet another example of fundy hypocrisy); except with the fundiest of fundies, this only hurts their reputations, even with people who might otherwise be expected to agree with them.
    •  Hi John. (none)
      I like what you said, but...

      This sad pathetic hypocrite doesn't reflect anything on me.  I feel bad for him and people like him (the Ennis DelMars of today, for sure).  His dishonesty is probably a reflection of a lifetime of denial and shame, and those things are really difficult for some people to overcome.  Yeah, it's gross what he did, but I'm hopeful that anyone with half a brain can differentiate between that and what 'out' folk like yourself do every day.

      I think this shows the world, more than anything, that our society is so twisted and oppressive in spots that people like this guy still feel they have to resort to such wretchedness to be able to have contact with another person and be who they really are.  It sucks.

      But this also makes me think about straight guys who pick up hookers and go to no-tell motels--if this guy was straight, would it have even made the news?  I dunno.

    •  You got it wrong (none)
      It reflects correctly on Babtist ministers :-)

      American Engineer :== loser!

      by jnmorgan on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 09:22:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Fundie preachers who prate the most against gays - (none)
    are guaranteed to be caught in motel rooms in unusual positions.  
  •  Two Words (none)
    Needs Therapy

    inspire change...don't back down

    by missliberties on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:20:30 PM PST

  •  Is anyone documenting all the religious (4.00)
    right leaders who have been arrested for soliciting sex, downloading porn or are closet homosexuals? I think it should be named hypocrisy.com!
  •  great bit of dialog from the L word... (4.00)
    Oscar: ...our people don't know how to play this game. We're progressives and we're accused of being morally bankrupt. They have so many f*cking skeletons in their closets and we don't touch them. We take the high road, we wind up in the ditch. We leave our dirty laundry hanging out all over the place cause we're not so ashamed of it; they grab it and wave it around. They make us look like perverts! We have to get into their closets. We cannot afford to keep on being so high-minded. Because we're getting killed.

    This insight hit me upside the head as I watched last night.

    The revolution will not be televised - on FOX

    by Uranus Hz on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:26:26 PM PST

  •  "The zealot rails most loudly... (4.00)
    against that which he fears most within."  - Dr. William Menninger
    •  That's true (none)
      for example, I read that Hitler feared he had Jewish blood. Apparently, his father, Alois Hitler, was illegitimate and Alois's paternity was unknown. Alois's mother, Maria Schickelgruber, was working for a Jewish family at the time and it's possible the son may have impregnated her.
      •  Here's what (none)
        the Jewish Virtual Library has to say about that: "One of the most frequently asked questions we receive is whether Adolf Hitler was Jewish or had ancestors who were. The idea seems to arise from the remote possibility that Hitler's grandfather was Jewish. Hitler's father, Alois, was registered as an illegitimate child with no father. Alois' mother worked in the home of a wealthy Jew and there is some chance a son in that household got the woman (i.e., Hitler's grandmother) pregnant. Adolf Hitler was not Jewish."

        So, I wonder, do all the KKK racists fear they may have black blood? Thurmond? Helms?

        •  Whether..... (none)
          they have Black blood or not, it is surely that which they fear the most (in this case, maybe the unknown differences between Black and white?) that causes their hateful racist spewing.  Hatred always has fear behind it. Look at the comments made during  Gitmo tortures, prisoner abuse in Iraq, etc...
      •  Illegitimate? (none)
        Please distinguish when using an archaic term. At that time, illegitimate was the common term. Nowadays there are no illegitimate children--only illegitimate parents. This is not being PC--all children are legitimate, but some are born to unwed parents. Furthermore, the laws that denied legal rights to such children are largely no more.
  •  wow (4.00)

    Blog this! Visit me at K Street Blues. It will change your life. (Actual life-changing not a guarantee.)

    by AggieDemocrat on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:29:42 PM PST

  •  Make him Bubba's bitch (none)

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who will watch the watchers?)

    by The Crusty Bunker on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:30:35 PM PST

  •  Wow... (4.00)
    never crossed my mind that having a "come to Jesus moment" was in some cases a double entendre.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

    by Lestatdelc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:31:15 PM PST

  •  Just to be clear (none)
    What exactly is the charge here?  Is it a crime to proposition someone for sex?
  •  Gee.... (none)
    is this what he calls it?

    "I was set up. I was in the area pastoring to police."

    Pennacchio for Pennsylvania

    by PAprogressive on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:36:47 PM PST

  •  So Surprised (none)
    I am so surprised by this!

    "We need a war to show 'em that we can do it whenever we say we need a war." -- Fischerspooner

    by bink on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:40:17 PM PST

  •  Lewdness? (4.00)
        What exactly was this guy arrested for?  There is no mention of money, so there's no prostitution angle.
        Lest we forget, the Supreme Court says that laws against homosexual acts in private are unconstitutional.  He allegedly propositioned an undercover officer to perform a homosexual act in private.  Why is this a crime?
        The post makes no sense, unless Oklahoma is enforcing an unconstitutional law.
  •  one thing then another (none)
    damn those 'sinful, destructive lifestyles

    "...gotta wonder though if a blowjob from a Southern Baptist Pastor really will "convince them that they can become heterosexual"

    can Southern Baptist Pastors be impeached?

    no, no,  I didn't get the chronology right...  gotta be a cop first, then get the bj,  then...

    life is too complex

  •  This is why they call it a choice. (none)
    They choose to live as "straight" men. So they actually believe it's a choice.

    Sick, twisted bastards.  Everyone knows, men on the down low are the biggest threat to traditional family values.

    You only regret the things you don't do.

    by DailyLife on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:42:47 PM PST

  •  here he is folks in all his scum bag glory (none)
    Dr. Lonnie Latham Senior Pastor

    http://www.southtulsabaptist.org/...

  •  Hilarious! (none)
    One more down, so many to go :(

    John

    -4.63/-4.10 Bush is living proof that drugs are bad for you...he's so dumb, he can't even spell Iraq, let alone find it on a map.

    by Bozos Rnot4 Bush on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 06:46:22 PM PST

  •  God is just (none)
    really tired of being made a mockery of. Notice how all the people that claim to be closer to God than us sinners are being caught up in a web, from lying to stealing to fornicating.

    I'm always of the belief that the folks that scream the loudest about their hate for gay people ought to be watched very carefuly. They seem to protest a little too much for me.

    My what is this world coming to. We are seeing these bunch of crooks for what they truly are.

    Talk about showing their true colors.  

    By the way, is this guy married?

    I wonder what his flock are saying now. Because you know his word is gospel. I bet he told many of them who and who not to vote for.

    All I can say is that, there really is a God who's making good on his promise. He'll punish you if you break his commandments.

    Go figure.

  •  The temptation to point an accusing finger ... (4.00)
    ... is undoubtedly irresistible, but, after getting it out of your system, remember that this is a human being who has probably struggled to cope with being gay in America for a long time. From what I've read, it isn't easy to grow up gay in Oklahoma or anywhere else for that matter. He may not have been able to admit his sexual orientation to himself enough to start acting on it until later in life, when he was already enmeshed in a career as a Baptist minister that was incompatible with his feelings. I'm not making excuses for his hypocrisy, but I think it behooves us to have compassion for any gay person who has felt he had to live a life hiding who they are, perhaps, in this case, even from himself, for fear of discovery. That must create a horrible type of schizophrenia in some people, and lead to bizarre contradictions and behavior. After all the laughing and jokes, this will no doubt end up as just another case of personal tragedy that has resulted from a society that does not accept homosexuality. The fact that he was part of the problem at times does not diminish the tragedy. At any rate, it never makes me happy to see the demise of another individual, even if a case can be made that he or she had it coming.  
    •  Especially (none)
      when simply asking someone up to one's hotel room for consensual sex gets you arrested. Meanwhile how many blue collar boy wonders stuffed bills inside some poor girls underwear tonight to get their jollies? Assuredly none of them were brought up on lewdness charges.
    •  Fuck this guy (none)
      I have about as much sympathy for this thug as I do for Nazi collaborators.

      Sponge Bob, Mandrake, Cartoons. That's how your hard-core islamahomocommienazis work.

      by Benito on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:03:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have no pity for him (4.00)
      If he struggled on his own, I would, but he has passed his self-hatred on to other people, and caused them to suffer.
      •  As the pastor might've used to say (none)
        Amen to that, brother. I can hardly muster up the sympathy to feel bad for someone whose gone out of his way to promote anti-gay sentiment in his flock while hiding his own true nature. Because you know what? The only thing wrong with his sexual orientation is himself, and other people like him, demonizing it on a daily basis.

        "As a woman, I have no country. As a woman I want no country. As a woman my country is the whole world."

        by MissAnneThrope on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:15:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  As a gay male myself, (4.00)
      I disagree with you categorically.
    •  Yeah, I don't know about this. . . (4.00)
      I mean, I do feel for the guy.  But he was creating the hateful world I have to live in in this country without the repurcussions.  That ain't fair, really.  

      So Jack and Ennis (from that one movie that's out . . .what's the name again?  ahem) also led double lives, and I and lots of others do feel compassion for folks like that in the real world.  Because they weren't actively creating a world of hate and profiting from that hatred.

      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills! The AA stands for Ann Arbor.

      by Matt in AA on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:15:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Compassion and consequences (none)
      I have deep compassion for closet cases, but it turns to fierce fury when they publically condemn the very thing they are.

      Men like this piece of filth infect gays & lesbians with a disease as deadly as HIV - shame & self-hatred. And make no mistake about it, there are plenty of gay youth that suicide because they have swallowed such soul-destroying poison.

      Southern Baptists are always shrieking about the consequences of one's behavior, usually to impoverished pregnant women seeking abortions or gay men dying of AIDS. This viper is about to reap some consequences and I hope they are swift and severe.

      And YES, it would delight me no end for him to get raped in prison, because RAPE of gay folk is what he & his ilk have been doing for years in the form of hatred from the pulpit, at the polls and in various State constitutional ammendments.

      He lost his claim on my compassion when he tried to cut off my balls ...

      "Separate ... (is) inherently unequal." Brown v. Board of Education, 5/17/54

      by WereBear Walker on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:01:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Compassion for those around him (4.00)
      I not only feel sad for this man, but also for his family and his church community. His actions have brought a lot of pain to a lot of people. If they could use this experience to come to a more loving, compassionate, and knowledgeable response to human sexuality, especially homosexuality, as least some good could come of it. I can hope (and if I still did, I would pray) that maybe one or two people would have their eyes opened to the reality that people have many differences and loving acceptance is much more healing than righteous preaching. The fact that this man was a liar to everyone around him only compounds his tragedy and the tragedy of the people surrounding him.

      Our national tragedy, expressed in the lack of love and compassion towards those who aren't the "mainstream" sexual orientation, won't begin to heal until we understand this as a civil rights issue and take it as seriously as we took the protection of civil rights in the 60s.

      Sometimes I weep for the Christian Church (of which once upon a time I was part). Right now Christian Fundamentalists are ascendent, but it is entirely possible that their power is at its apogee. I believe (fear and hope anxiously combined) that many Americans are going to react against fundamentalist Christianity in a way that will make some of their paranoid delusions of persecution come true. Fundamentalist Christians are much more a minority than all of the polls about the large number of Americans belief in God may make one think. While there is a large group of Fundamentalists in this country, I believe the majority of Americans don't want their government in their bedroom and in their doctor's office and don't need someone else to tell them how to believe in God or make difficult moral decisions. Right now Fundamentalists are loud and aggressive but they are teetering on the brink of a backlash that won't take too much more to unleash and I don't think they understand how ugly it could become. And some here will doubtless feel they would deserve any punishment that come their way.

    •  I spent 9 months in Oklahoma... (none)
      and almost had a nervous breakdown.  A horrible state to live in if you're queer.  And I was on a college campus and not a pig farm.  I feel for the guy but not that much.  
  •  Southern Baptists (4.00)
    Is it just me, or do Southern Baptists in particular seem to be the most hypocritical members of the religious right? Whenever I hear the words "Southern Baptist" I keep thinking of that pasty-faced preacher from the movie Mississippi Burning.

    Sponge Bob, Mandrake, Cartoons. That's how your hard-core islamahomocommienazis work.

    by Benito on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:00:46 PM PST

    •  Well, no..... (none)
      ...the Mayor of Spokane was just thrown out office for giving cdity jobs to young men in exchange for sex. Total homophobe --voted against gay rights every chance he got. They are everywhere!

      "What luck for rulers that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler

      by Bensdad on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:08:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, that award probably should go to ... (4.00)
      ... the Roman Catholic Church, for its performance after being caught having sex with young boys all over America for decades and for essentially acting as if it never happened. As hypocritical as some Southern Baptists have been, their hypocrisy has never approached the level of hypocrisy of the RCC, imo. Interestingly, neither Republicans or Democrats have said much about it over the years. I must admit that I have often wondered if the Catholic opposition to abortion in America has not been encouraged in part as a smokescreen to keep the public from looking too closely at the Catholic  sex scandal.
    •  beware stereotypes, clearly define definitions (none)
      FUNDAMENTALISM  is a key concept here

      these folks are under tremendous pressures

  •  Lewdness (none)
    I'm glad this guy was outed in the harshest way possible, but is anyone else here concerned about the notion that simply asking someone up to one's hotel room is grounds for arrest? It's not even public indecency, it's (presumably) consensual behavior between adults.

    What about these "charges" am I missing. How did this poor idiot exactly break the law?

    •  Reading Between the Lines (none)
      There was an undercover cop posing as a hooker.  The minister took the bait.  The cop flashed his badge.  Just like on TV.

      "We need a war to show 'em that we can do it whenever we say we need a war." -- Fischerspooner

      by bink on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:07:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Upon a second read (none)
        I see the part about how that particular parking lot had "complaints" about male hustlers, so it seems obvious he was soliciting for money. I'll bet a look at the good pastor's home computer email and browser history would yield some interesting results as well.
        •  nothing is obvious from the article cited (none)
          lewdness is not the same as soliciting, unless so defined by statutes.

          I have no idea what the local (municipal or state) statutes may be, but the article is not clear.

          The article makes mention of the ministers previous statements, but does not clarify OKC or OK laws.  The hypocricy charges stem from the minister's statements and actions...  the legal discussion is not appropriate based on the data given in the article.

  •  Why ask the Lord for... (none)
    Mana from Heaven...

    When the Spigot is that much closer to Earth!

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Seneca

    by Ralfast on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:05:21 PM PST

  •  Mug Shot here (none)
    Mug Shot here
    http://newsok.com/...

    Video of local OKC news story here
    http://newsok.com/...
    (scroll down to 4th news story)

    You'll need to register for the site.

    9/11 Family Member Running for State Senate

    by Dignanokc on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:06:46 PM PST

  •  Surprise, surprise. (4.00)
    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    Kind of makes one wonder how ol' Fred Phelps wiles away those cold prairie winters, doesn't it?

    Res Ipsa Loquitur, and you know what I'm talking about.

    by justme on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:08:01 PM PST

  •  He was just giving the officer (none)
    Some holy water. A sprinkle here and a jab there will do wonders.
  •  Missing the bigger point here (none)
    From reading the links and detail on this arrest, nowhere does it indicate that it was for solicitation or any indication that money was offered. Only soliciating a "lewd" act.

    So in Oklahoma asking someone back to your hotel room for oral sex is grounds for arrest?

    While I have no sympathy for such an obvious hypocrite, I do find police actions such as this most disturbing.

  •  "Pastoring to police ..." (none)
    Is that what the kids are calling it these days?  I love this stuff.  I wish it would make a difference to the dipshit voters in this country, but not so far ....
  •  It's getting to the point... (none)
    where anytime I hear someone with strong anti-gay views I just assume they are gay.
  •  So what is the illegal act here? (4.00)
    So yeah, the guy is a self-hating creep but I'm not thrilled about the law in Oklahoma in this case.  

    The article says nothing about money although many here are assuming it must be so but perhaps that is more a misunderstnding of the depths of homophobia in the good ole USA.  I found this in a quick search about Oklahoma sodomy laws:

    "In 1995, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals, deciding Sawatzky v. City of Oklahoma City, upheld a solicitation conviction that raised important questions. The Court, in a 3-1 vote, noted that:

    Sawatzky solicited an act of lewdness in a public place from a police officer. The act solicited was intended to take place in private and Sawatzky and the officer are members of the same gender. In this context it is clear that Sawatzky is not entitled to relief.

    Thus, had a female solicited the police officer for sodomy while in a public place, she would have had a constitutional right to do so. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review this decision."

    Period Summary: Oklahoma courts made it clear that the sodomy law invalidation was limited to heterosexual activity. The Oklahoma legislature also has shown no interest in repealing the now discriminatory law. After possibly unintentionally lowering the maximum penalty with a major revision to state criminal law, it reacted a year later in raising the maximum penalty to well beyond what it ever had been in the state.

    So while there is some perverse joy to be had in seeing this guy snared by anti-gay discriminatory laws he probably vocaly supported, the law itself is disgusting.

    •  not thrilled about the law in Oklahoma (none)
      how about Kansas and all those other blood red states?
    •  FYI..... (none)
      For whatever its worth, the guy was outside a KNOWN gay hotel, which houses three bars, and is in a known gay district of Oklahoma City.

      While I agree that this person didn't appear to be "soliciting" (offering to pay), the fact that he was pastor of the 2nd largest baptist church in Tulsa and on the board of the southern baptist convention pretty much means that he was complicit, either directly or indirectly with the anti gay policies and attitudes of the southern baptist church.

      http://newsok.com/...

      •  I have to 2nd Irhokes comments (none)
        he has great influence and power because of his anti-gay activism here in Oklahoma...and it has had severe consequences on GLBT people trying to protect their privacy rights in this state.

        9/11 Family Member Running for State Senate

        by Dignanokc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 07:55:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Sort of OT (from the thread above) but (4.00)
    this bit caught my eye:

    He spoke out last year against a measure, ultimately approved by voters, to expand tribal gaming.

    I wonder if Ralphie tried to help him out by offering a phone bank or two, some ad time, perhaps purchased with that specially cleaned money from the Indians?  

    my "who cares" moment this evening...thank you...thankyouverymuch...

  •  I'm not comfortable with calling this hypocrisy (none)
    In my mind, hypocrisy is, for instance, when you loudly proclaim that it is a sin to lie ... which truly is a moral wrong ... and then go and perpetrate a dastardly lie that harms another. If you look at Merriam Webster's definition, it supports my view. It defines "hypocrisy" as "the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion."

    Homosexuality isn't a moral wrong, especially if you think of the origins of virtue/morality as being something that is supportive or productive for one's community. What is immoral/"a vice" is something that is detrimental to one's community. Homosexuality is only "morally wrong" in communities who are not reproducing at a sufficient rate for survival ... something that may have been a problem centuries ago but, alas, is not our current problem.

    I fact in this case, the mere juxtaposition of a "mantle of virtue" with "virulent homophobia" (which is devastating to a community) is itself hypocrisy. So the vitriol against homosexuality by itself, even without the solicitation, is where the hypocrisy lies.

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:27:29 PM PST

    •  it would be hypocrisy (none)
      if he were outwardly anti-gay, while pursuing this other life for himself.

      It seems that this was the case.

      Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

      by hrh on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:39:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not what hypocrisy means (none)
        ... at least from a dictionary definition perspective.

        And frankly, most people who cry "hypocrisy" believe themselves that the "hypocritical act" was a sin/vice/moral failure.

        QED

        "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

        by Glinda on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:43:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  i don't follow (none)
          "Practice what you preach" seems to have relevance here.

          Merriam-Webster Online
          hypocrisy
          1 : a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion

          wordreference.com
          hypocrisy
          1 insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

          Which dictionaries do you use?

          -7.00,-7.74 No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. -- Edward R Murrow

          by subtropolis on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 06:32:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yep that was my definitional source too (none)
            I'm sure that he truly believes that homosexuality is a heinous sin so he's not a hypocrite. What he is is completely delusional. He adheres to a false morality because he's afraid he wouldn't otherwise be a "man". He is obviously deeply in the closet and guilt-ridden. All for a "morality" that was created to ensure that the population of a ethnic/religious group grew sufficiently -- a morality that is several centuries out of date.

            Pathetic.

            And by the way, there is nothing "unvirtuous" about homosexuality in and of itself.

            "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

            by Glinda on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 05:09:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  And don't confuse 'preaching' with 'morality' (none)
            Morality is extra-religious ... no matter how much each religion claims to have a lock on morality.

            "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

            by Glinda on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 05:14:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Well now that's a darn shame. ( nt ) (none)

    . . . religion is not a syllogism, but a poem. H.L. Mencken

    by BenGoshi on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:33:15 PM PST

  •  Closet case (none)
    Maybe he was just trying to invite the policeman to view Narnia with him.

    Now we have pictures of the alleged perp, could we have one of the policeman involved to make sure that he is not also guilty of bad taste?

  •  We should rally to his defense. (4.00)
    We should allow him to come safely out of the closet and let him know that there is a place for him to be who he is without shame.

    Oh wait, I guess this diary and its comments pretty much eliminated that possibility eh?

    •  but the place isn't in Oklahoma (none)
      but I think you're right.  Despite the fun at finger pointing another right-wing jerk taking a fall, the fun doesn't last that long for me.  
      •  Me neither (none)
        Despite the fun at finger pointing another right-wing jerk taking a fall, the fun doesn't last that long for me.  

        I clicked on this diary last night to enjoy a quick vindictive chuckle and crow "hoist with his own petard!" and then planned to go back to reading about Abramoff. But as the discussion has gone on, I find myself continuing to come back to it even as everyone else has moved on.  What looked at first like a simple case of ironic justice has opened up all kinds of serious and thought-provoking questions for me.... What was his crime?  Solicitation?  Being gay in Oklahoma?  Helping create a culture that makes it a crime to be gay in Oklahoma?... Why does Kos's statement on the frontpage that "these crazy right-wing homophobes are all closet homosexuals" bother me so much?  When does glee over exposing a hypocrite turn into mocking him for being a closeted gay man?  How much compassion should I, who knows too well what it's like to be closeted, feel for him?  How much anger?...and on and on.  Thanks to everyone who has made me think, question, or laugh.

    •  what would the rally look like? (none)
      coming to his defense, I mean.  I like the idea of this but don't know how it could be implemented.  
  •  HOT GAY SEX!!! (none)
    Yes!!!

    Finally, we get some Hot Gay Sex! We haven't had enough of that around here lately.

    We've gone far too long without any Hot Gay Sex at DailyKos.

    "I am not a crook" - The Honorable Richard M. Nixon

    by tricky dick on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:34:45 PM PST

  •  typical (none)
    what's new.  fucking hypocrites and perverts.  can't keep themselves under control, hate themselves when they should be embracing themselves, and they have to take it out on the whole world.

    Nothing new under the sun.

  •  No money was offered (none)
    so the police arrested him for picking up a guy?

    That isn't illegal.

    I know that isn't the point of the diary, but it sounds like harassment of a gay man to me. (Odd spokesman for gay privacy rights, no?)

    Happy New Year, Impeach Bush

    by coigue on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 07:45:10 PM PST

  •  "Pastoring," eh? (none)
    So that's what the kids are calling it nowadays.

    This is a fantastically funny story.  I love it when religious nuts get their come uppance.  Oh to be a fly on the wall next time this hypocritical turd on the shoe sole of humanity tries to preach anything to anybody.

    Of course, the kind of people who dig the Southern Baptist stuff will just wait for him to say he made a "mistake" and beg forgiveness and recommit himself to Christ or some nonsense, and he'll be right back in business.

  •  This could be a perfect case (4.00)
    for the ACLU. If, by chance, the right reverend was entrapped, I think the ACLU should take up his case and defend him vigorously. This would serve two purposes. It would:

    1. Frustrate conservative Christians to no end;
    2. Keep the case in the public eye much longer than it might normally be there.

    How DARE I criticize the President in wartime?

    by MeMeMeMeMe on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 08:29:14 PM PST

  •  Just a comment... (4.00)
    I googled Lonnie Latham a bit, with the following consequences:
    (1) I found nothing Latham said about gays, lesbians, or homosexuals, pro or con.
    (2) I found a LTE to a Texas Baptist publication criticizing Latham for wearing robes and using an altar boy in his service. The criticism was that he was not a "pure" fundamentalist.
    (3) I did find some comments he made against gambling, that it hurt the poor, etc.

    So, does anyone have a link in which Latham criticizes gays or gay marriage specifically? If you google for this, you get hits, but then in the article, Latham isn't associated with anything gay. It would also be germane to find Latham connected with more radical fundamentalism--from what I found, he seems to be more of a mainstream, big-church preacher than a "fundie".

    If no such evidence is available, then maybe his hypocrisy is limited to that inherent in the SBC rather than anything he personally has been involved in; this makes the story more a personal embarrassment than a cause celèbre.

    Greg Shenaut

  •  As if that's a surprise! (none)
         So a self-hating gay baptist is caught being gay.

         Ho humm.

         IMHO, ALL gay haters are closet queens.

         Granted, if the police arrest you for soliciting gay prostitutes, you are not too far into the closet...

         FWIW... "a blowjob from a Southern Baptist Pastor" probably means the same thing as a blowjob from a catholic priest...

  •  Yup. (none)
    Hypocrites, the lot of them. Liars, hypocrites, frauds, and scam-artists, these Evangelical and fundamentalist "Christians."

    Fuck him...wait, let me rephrase that....

    Ari Mistral

    "The only god George W. Bush worships is Ares."

    by Ari Mistral on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:56:08 PM PST

  •  propositioning or soliciting? (none)
    The linked news article had very little in the way of detail, but I find something very distrubing in this situation. Yes, the guy is a hypocrite. But beyond that, I want to understand if he was soliciting someone to have sex for money, or if he merely propositioned someone to have sex. If it is a solicitation charge that's one thing. But if it is merely making a pass at someone, since when is that a criminal act? Does OK have a law against that? Or is it only when a man makes a pass at another man? Latham's hypocrisy aside, there are some real issues here.

    "Instead of asking what you could do, you ought to have been asking what needs to be done."

    by khaavren on Wed Jan 04, 2006 at 09:56:51 PM PST

  •  Frames (none)
    I doubt he was framed.  Here is a photograph of the Habana Inn:


    A motel that offers "monthly rates" located on Interstate-44 is not the type of lodging I expect a pastor to seek.

    But let us view this page from the Habana Inn's website:

    Does the Habana Inn have a specific clientele?  Or is it mere coincidence that a motel in a very homophobic state would post advertisements for local gay establishments?  

    Probably not coincidental, for the Habana Inn hosted an event for Oklahama's first Bear Club.  For those not fluent in gay argot, a bear is a man of larger stature who is normally hirsute, aggressive, ponderous and hyperbolically masculine.

    Click on this link and view the last image if you require evidence of the Habana Inn's occassional function as a "Bear Den."

    So the Baptist was framed.  No, his stay in Oklahoma City was framed by a travel coordinator who was all too aware of our pastor's sexual proclivities.  But to the misfortune of our sanctimonious pastor, the contents of the frame were interrupted by the covert police officer whose alluring muscles and stereotyped costume transformed Latham's fantasy space into the deeply disturbing reality he and his congregation have compulsively, in the psychoanalytic sense, created.

  •  Heterosexual Paradise (none)
    The Habana Inn is a gay man's paradise.  No surprise there, Mr. Pastor.

    Here is some more evidence:

    Is this typical hotel lobby behaviour?

  •  Someone's tabloid headline should say (none)
    What's with Republicans and GAY sex? The Dem was getting his BJ from a woman.
    Republicans think gay sex is horrible  So lets give them a taste of " the forbidden love".Work the Republican mayor of from a WEstern state wtih a president on the flag named George and an military costumed hustler named Jeff into it also. A new Republican sex scandal,now on DVD to be viewed in one's own home. Blowjobs, Gay online internet love. White house hustlers. All together. The public will eat it up.  Whats all the fuss about this new NBC show " Daniel"?. Who needs it?. The Republicans, like the Fundamentalists, are so sexually repressed it comes out in bodice ripping forbidden homosexual trysts. Great material for a porn movie.  Some guy named Big Dick, into punishment and S and M torture. Mistress Condi, dominatrix, with  a guy named George as her bitchboy on all fours being flogged.  A character named "Rummy", the motorcycle leatherman, always ready to rumble and get into some action. Oh and Scotty, we can't forget Scotty. Not with a name like that and such a pretty mouth.  He's been a bad boy. He lies all the time.  A very bad boy.Big Dick gets to punish him because he squeals so nice. Put some guy named Carl in some sort of OZ episode. Make a DVD. Donate a small percentage to help defend the "innocent Oklahoma preacher"
  •  Republicans/conservatives love the cops (none)
    A state legislator in Hawaii did this in 2004. He claimed he was still grieving his dead wife.
  •  good to see (none)
    such respect among Southern Baptist clergy for oral traditions.

    :)

    (Sorry. Lame seminarian joke.)

  •  All I can think to say is.... (none)
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
  •  Pastoring to police? Sounds like fun! n/t (none)

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

    by LondonYank on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 01:15:38 AM PST

  •  Talk about showing his ass :) (none)
    (to) show ass: to embarrass oneself and offend others.

    The phrase is most often used in reference to badly-behaved children...but this will do nicely. :)

    Never let being humane get in the way of being human. And vice-versa.

    by cskendrick on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 03:30:41 AM PST

  •  I haven't seen a post yet.. (none)
    ..that comments on the irony of this situation.  The closet case wasn't soliciting to PAY for sex, he just asked what he thought was a hot gay guy back to his room for sex.

    This SHOULDN'T be illegal.  However, due to this jackass' efforts to marginalize HIS OWN PEOPLE he got busted as the massive hypocrite every. single. fucking. Republican. is.

    Hard to feel sorry for him.....

  •  illegal activity? (none)
    The pastor's hypocrisy aside, I'm concerned about the police action to begin with.

    It would be one thing if they were having sex in public, but where do these people get off on criminalizing an offer of consensual sex that is to take place in private?  It is not stated that he was offering to pay the guy so it wasn't prostitution.  

    So, whats up with that?

  •  A note to all the holier than thou (none)
    Religious Right pastors and others........God is watching and is not amused.  Go God!

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 04:30:24 AM PST

  •  Washington Post (none)
    has his mug shot up. Nice kinda half pissed off half scared shitless... hehehe

    Mug Shot and AP article

    I now see why Bush and Russian President Vladimir V. Putin are such good friends. - BILL TILDEN, Oakland (from LA Times Letters to Editor)

    by IMind on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 04:47:49 AM PST

  •  can't avoid this (none)
    have you seen his picture?

    http://www.southtulsabaptist.org/...

    dude, the guy is on fire. a baptist minister in tulsa looking like that? did anyone not suspect?

  •  I can't say that I am shocked or surprised at all (none)
    This is kind of what I expect from these types of hate peddlers.  

    Reality is just... a point of view - Philip K. Dick; Beautiful thing, the destruction of words. (from Orwell's 1984)

    by LionelEHutz on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 05:57:37 AM PST

  •  Inevitably (none)

    It is almost a certainty that the most rabidly anti-gay loudmouth is himself/herself a (semi)closeted gay.  If they'd only get over it, make peace with their gayness and even come out of the closet, the world would be a little less assholy.


    Someone with $$ ought to put a P.I. onto a sampling of the loudest, most homophobic (and public) religious nuts out there and get them lubricated-handed in the act.  Do them a favor (and the rest of us) and just get their sexual orientation out there for them and the world to see.  Take some air out of the gay-bashing sails and move on to things that are actually important, like universal healthcare, improving education, sustainable energy, PEACE, etc.  The gay-bashing schtick is nothing more than a pointless diversion of attention away from real problems that need fixing (and they require intelligent politicians in office - hence the reason the GOPers use the gay monster as a tool to keep incompetents and crooks in office).

    "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." --9th Amendment

    by praedor on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 06:14:29 AM PST

  •  Latham Later Said From His Jail Cell (none)
    "Just my luck I proposition the one undercover cop in Oklahoma City not interested in a blow job".

    Bush is the first President to admit to an impeachable offense. - John Dean

    by easong on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 07:20:56 AM PST

  •  Babtists are dysfunctional (none)
    ...period.  The religion where all fault lies with the victim to forgive, revenge is for god; finally, to keep everybody off-balance perfection is unacheivable but you are always judged against it, then if you get close you discover perfection is a moving target. The church is full of incest and wife/child beaters.

    American Engineer :== loser!

    by jnmorgan on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 08:22:18 AM PST

  •  2 points: (none)
    1. It's true that the Gay Bashers often turn out to be closet cases. That makes them no less dangerous or prevalent. In fact, criticizing someone's basic biological nature from the pulpit is no different than racism. People are born gay. On the other hand, they are not likely to be born bigots. THAT is the crime, the thing that hurts people.

    2. It should not be illegal as an adult to ask another adult to go to your hotel room and have oral sex. Was there any mention of Payment? What is the bif fucking deal? Who here hasn't propositioned someone for a romantic interlude at some point ever in their lives. Go ahead and cast the first stone. When raising the flag of hypocrisy, it's best to avoid being one.  
    •  I don't recall ever actually propositioning anyone (none)
      I've always hated the idea of being turned down, so I always waited for them to make the suggestion. I probably lost out on a lot, but that's the way it goes.

      -6.88/-5.64 * 2005 AD, final score, Internet 1, Corporate America 0 * Merry New Year!

      by John West on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 09:17:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh John (none)
        I'm sure they would have said yes! Most of the time people are just like you! Of course, in some circles (like horny closet babtist pastors and uniform-wearing gay men), people don't mess around with "names" and such niceties, there's no time for that.

        Still, I think the screwed up thing is that just asking someone if they'd like to go have sex should be illegal. A polite, "No thank you" is no much more civilized than an arrest.  

  •  well, this explains the wildfires (none)
    in OK & TX.

    god is obviously PISSED!

    Truth is always the enemy of power. And power the enemy of truth. -Edward Abbey

    by elkhunter on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 09:12:01 AM PST

  •  I Lived 5 years in Tulsa (none)
    and let me tell you, it's a stinking third world shit hole.

    And I've seen stinking third world shitholes.

    A minister propositioning for anonymous homosex?

    At least he was over 7.

    Most don't take much stock in that whole "age of consent" nonsense.

    I always wondered why Okies were so rude, until it occurred to me, "I'd be in a bad mood too if the pastor's five o'clock shadow rubbed the inside of ny legs raw every Sunday after choir practice."
     

    •  Tulsa is not that bad. (none)
      Tulsa is a bit depressed economically, but actually has some very beautiful architecture and parks. I will say that it is one of the most weirdly segregated places I've ever been, and not to mention the staging ground for a terrible race riot back in the 20s I think it was. The white folks burned the black neighborhood to the ground basically because someone looked at another guy's girlfriend funny. It's an interesting place to observe racial and economic divides, but not exactly third world squalor.
      •  I'm with you (none)
        I liked Tulsa when I last visited there. In fact, I thought Oklahoma was actually kinda great, and very tolerant of the out and gay nature of my partner and I. Way different and way better than most places I've been in Texas, or even rural California (the shocking contrast to urban california is nowheresville in that same state).

        The only thing I thought was bad was the sprawl of Oklahoma city. Sprawl is usually pretty ugly, but that was special.

  •  The Habana Inn (none)
    I used to live in OKC, and The Habana Inn is sort of like a low-key gay resort. It's kept up really nice, and the little 1950's-era commercial strip it's located on is surrounded by gay bars, dance clubs, etc. The bar in the motel itself, is your run-of-the-mill gay bar. There's a gift shop right next to it. It's not exactly a seedy male prostitute hangout, not from what I remember of it anyway. I would the think the complaints have more to do with residents being up in arms about the presence of gay people in general! OKC is pretty conservative -- no surprise there.
  •  So many comments! (none)
    Wow.  Over four hundred comments on this diary, double the number of any diary on the recommended list.  What causes this volume of response?  Pie fights seem to add a lot of comments.
    •  It wasn't a pie fight (none)
      That long thread was actually a rather respectful discussion (for the most part) and dialog about language, jokes and how they pertain to homophobic and misogynistic roots.

      Just because there is a discussion and dialog over language use and context thereof doesn't make it a pie fight.

      cheers,

      Mitch Gore

      A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

      by Lestatdelc on Thu Jan 05, 2006 at 05:32:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ooo Forbidden Love (none)
    The rabidly anti-gay Baptist minister attempts to solicit a male prostitute who turns out to be a police officer!  How sexy!

    Man, this guy deserves to be embarassed like this.  What a fucking hypocrite.  

  •  Allegorical Blowjob (none)
    I'm sure the good pastor was using the penises as allegory for the serpent, and his own mouth as an allegory for how the love of Jesus Christ our Lord can suck the sin and temptations of that vile serpent Satan from any man.
  •  Self Loathing Non-Gay Jesus Freaks (none)
    I have nothing against religions that don't tolerate homosexuality, that's their right, but I can't stand the hypocrisy of these people! Out every last one of them! From the gay chat mayor in Washington to Jeff Ganon to Rick Santorum's chief of staff. What these guys need is a really good lay! That and therapy. When are these people going to stop already and just live and let live? They're just a bunch of sad, self-loathing queers who never got over the whole being gay thing. Just like Heath Leger's character in "Brokeback Mountain". It's just sad, sad, sad!

    http://troycomics.com

  •  What I did the other night was juvenile. (none)
    I apologise.
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