Skip to main content

Australia's SBS Dateline and Sydney Morning Herald will show and publish some of the Abu Gharib photos which have been until now supressed by the Bush Administration.

UPDATE:Several of the pictures have now been released. They are shown below the fold AND ARE DISTURBING - PROCEED WITH CAUTION. Thanks to limaike for pointing out the link.

Sydney Morning Herald story here.

Tonight the SBS Dateline program plans to broadcast about 60 previously unpublished photographs that the US Government has been fighting to keep secret in a court case with the American Civil Liberties Union.

Although a US judge last year granted the union access to the photographs following a freedom-of-information request, the US Administration has appealed against the decision on the grounds their release would fuel anti-American sentiment.

Some of the photos are similar to those published in 2004, others are different. They include photographs of six corpses, although the circumstances of their deaths are not clear. There are also pictures of what appear to be burns and wounds from shotgun pellets.

There are approximately sixty photos in total, six have been released at this point. UPDATE: THERE ARE SEVERAL MORE BELOW THE ORIGINAL ONES, THEY ARE EVEN MORE DISTURBING, PROCEED WITH CAUTION.


Originally posted to waitingtoderail on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 03:30 PM PST.

Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Keep yours (4.00)
    I'll go delete mine
      •  Please recommend this diary... (4.00)
        This needs to be seen ASAP.
        •  Thank you for posting this.. (4.00)
          every American needs to see what was, AND STILL IS being done in their name.

          Dick Cheney has disgraced this country.  He is responsible for much more than the shooting of one lawyer in Texas.  He is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands and the torture of hundreds.

          There will be justice.

          •  perhaps George W can do another (4.00)
            comedy routine with these photos: "no WMD's here, huh?  Maybe we'll ask this next fellow.  So you don't know nothing about no WMD's either?  What a surprise.  wink wink.  Let's ask another guy..."

            "pulp is fiction, blogs are hope, long live electricity"

            by dash888 on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:42:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Bush wants the power to torture at will (none)
              When President Bush signed the torture ban bill in January 2006,
              he reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.

              After approving the bill... Bush issued a ''signing statement" -- an official document in which a president lays out his interpretation of a new law -- declaring that he will view the interrogation limits in the context of his broader powers to protect national security. This means Bush believes he can waive the restrictions, the White House and legal specialists said.

              ''The executive branch shall construe [the law] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President . . . as Commander in Chief," Bush wrote, adding that this approach ''will assist in achieving the shared objective of the Congress and the President . . . of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks."

              Some legal specialists said yesterday that the president's signing statement, which was posted on the White House website but had gone unnoticed over the New Year's weekend, raises serious questions about whether he intends to follow the law.

              Bush knows about what has gone on under his directive as commander in chief, and he obviously approves because he has claimed the power to do more of the same.

              ...even tho CIA officers and others have stated that torture doesn't work. even after Gen. Taguba said that 70% of the ppl in the prisons in Iraq were innocent of any crime, even when the Int'l Red Cross put the number at 80%. even tho we know of ppl who have been released who were innocent who were also tortured.

        •  There Is Something You Can Do About Torture (none)
          According to what has been previously reported by Seymour Hersh and others, these are, sadly, not the worst of the unreleased photos.

          Could this batch be a way of preventing the rest of them from coming to light?

          Those who want to change U.S. policies on torture might be interested in a new campaign initiated by religious leaders.

          You are invited to sign their statement and, if you wish, make a donation:

          National Religious Campaign Against Torture

    •  Just so you know . .. (none)
      I posted this information yesterday afternoon, but anyhow, glad it finally got noticed.


  •  WILL be released (none)
    The program airs at 1am tonight Pacific Time.
  •  We've already seen that image. (none)
    •  Now THOSE are new (none)
      The updated diary removes the one with the dog and shows many new ones, including a graphic image of wounds inflicted by a dog.
    •  Why is it that (none)
      broadcasting Abu Ghraib photos is good, but

      showing Mohammed cartoons is bad.

      Both groups of images enrage Muslims and lead to murderous riots. Both groups of images make the work of our soldiers immeasureably harder.

      Is the mere anticipation that this will harm Bush's poll ratings causing the excitement here? I wonder, because most of the mistreaters in the photos have already been tried and punished.

      What matters most is what lasts longest.

      by Sargon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:19:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  totally different intent (none)
        They have totally different intent. It's like publishing a cartoon about "niggers" and showing footage of the Rodney King beating. One of them is inciteful, and another is illuminating.
  •  "...and wounds from shotgun pellets." (none)

    Paging Doctor Dean.

    by ABBinMI on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 03:35:11 PM PST

  •  Clowns that torture and maim people. (none)
    Approval ratings in the low 30's by the end of the week.
  •  Hopefully there will be a torrent of this. (none)
    I will keep my eyes peeled.
  •  Do any Australians read this site? (none)
    Anyone there in Oz who could record this program?
  •  Five new images (4.00)
    are linked to here

    The most shocking picture for me is of the blood splattered floor and wall. The horror.

    You must be the change you wish to see in the world- Mahatma Gandhi

    by limaike on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 03:54:46 PM PST

    •  Thank you (none)
      I will post them in the diary
    •  Oh. my. god... (none)
      Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes are splitting up!!


      [Mimicking typical Freeper.]

    •  haven't you heard? (none)
      They're nothing worse than fraternity pranks.
      •  They're nothing worse than fraternity pranks. (none)
        Considering how utterly fucked up a lot of frat members wind up becoming, we should therefore be VERY concerned about these acts...

        A gin and orange, a lemon squash and a Scotch and water, PLEASE! -6.75, -4.36

        by zkg on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:15:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let's spotlight up all the apologists: .. (4.00)
          As reported by, Limbaugh's comments can be found on his website. From the May 4 Rush Limbaugh Show, titled "It's Not About Us; This Is War!":

          CALLER: It was like a college fraternity prank that stacked up naked men --

          LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You ever heard of need to blow some steam off?

          The day before, on his May 3 show, Limbaugh observed that the American troops who mistreated Iraqi prisoners of war were "babes" and that the pictures of the alleged abuse were no worse than "anything you'd see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage."

          LIMBAUGH: And these American prisoners of war -- have you people noticed who the torturers are? Women! The babes! The babes are meting out the torture.

          LIMBAUGH: You know, if you look at -- if you, really, if you look at these pictures, I mean, I don't know if it's just me, but it looks just like anything you'd see Madonna, or Britney Spears do on stage. Maybe I'm -- yeah. And get an NEA grant for something like this. I mean, this is something that you can see on stage at Lincoln Center from an NEA grant, maybe on Sex in the City -- the movie. I mean, I don't -- it's just me.

          Not that it will happen, but Limbaugh should resign forever from the airwaves for this error of judgement alone.

          The Bush administration has achieved a de facto Ministry of Propaganda - Paul C. Roberts

          by Yellow Canary on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:45:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Error? (none)
            Hardly. Limbaugh knows his audience. Why do you think Ann Coulter is so popular? A large segment of the right truly are bigots suffering from small penis syndrome. They love it when those terrrists get what they deserve (every raghead is a terrrist). And they see nothing wrong with fraternity hazing, because that's just the kind of sickos they are.
            •  Two things: (4.00)
              1. They actually approve of torture and killing because it is "getting back at them".  I heard this often in the months after Bush started his Iraq war of agression.  It was the first time I realized, deep in my gut, that this country was sick.

              2. The opposite of LIBERAL is BIGOT.

              The Bush administration has achieved a de facto Ministry of Propaganda - Paul C. Roberts

              by Yellow Canary on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:51:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Easy there... (none)
          I know that was snark, but there are those of us who were in fraternities that are working hard side by side with you.

          The frat bashing grows wearisome.  Not directed at you, just a statement in general.

          I think I am, therefore I am...I think. - George Carlin

          by ejmw on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:36:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Another thing... (none)
            People in a college fraternity can probably spell "rapist" correctly. I think you guys are off the hook on this one.
          •  Ever stop to think why? (2.00)
            Frats, even at their best, have a lot going against them.  Above all, they lionize conformity and misogyny.  At their worst, they are little more than date rape clubs.  

            -7.38, -5.90 | "A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

            by Subterranean on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:52:39 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Of course (none)
              there are always those that perpetuate the stereotype.

              But I find it incredibly frustrating that people who so often claim to want to break down barriers between people based on various superficial factors still fall victim to lumping people into a group classification based on one aspect of their life such as simply being in a fraternity.

              It's just another form of bigotry.  Carry on with it.  You won't get much resistance here, obviously.  And there are certainly battles that are much more worth fighting.

              I think I am, therefore I am...I think. - George Carlin

              by ejmw on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:10:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Please be careful with your generalisations, (4.00)
              Some fraternities are bad, some do bad things, but they are not all bad; there are good houses out there. There are a lot of good, hard working Democrats out there who, like emjw, were in fraternities and don't deserve to be insulted by your generalizations. I spent several years of my life in a fraternity, and during that time my non-conformist and feminist beliefs were only strengthened.

              I was introduced to my fraternity through by a friend I met at meeting of my university's Democratic Club. Once I joined the house, I roomed with an incredibly motivated, hard working fellow who organized a multi-campus campaign effort that involved over a hundred students (including myself) going to another state (Nevada) to campaign for Kerry in '04; he is now chair of the state College Democrats caucus.

              Granted, not everyone in my fraternity was a Democrat, but most were free thinkers and none of them were misogynists or rapists.

            •  Not always true. (4.00)
              The frat I was in had several gay members, even though it was in no way a "homosexual frat." We also fought against the national association to allow chapters to go co-ed.

              In fact, if it wasn't for my fraternity, I never would have met the man who ended up proving to me that homosexuality is NOT a choice. (It's hard to believe it's a choice when you have deeply personal conversations with someone who appears to be completely repulsed at HIMSELF for what he is afraid he is becoming.)

              Since then, he was the best man at my wedding, I've named my first born son after him, and his example as an excellent friend and best man has served allowed me to convince most of my relatives that homosexuals are not deviants or perverts. In fact, they can be wonderful human beings, and give the best wedding toast ever.

              BTW, my wife and I would not be married today if it wasn't for the emotional support and guidance of this friend who helped us through some difficult times. When people talk about homosexuality threatening traditional marriage, I just mention that my traditional Catholic marriage never would have happened without the years-long support of my best friend, who happens to be homosexual.

              And this all came about because we met each other through my fraternity. And because my fraternity was tolerant, and accepting of anyone who seemed like a decent guy. (or even a decent gal nowadays.)

              congratulations on your foreskin -- osteriser

              by bartman on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:34:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Magnificent comment (4.00)
                Thank you for that breath of fresh air. As commented above, best not to generalize. Bush was cruel and sadistic before he ever got into his fraternity.  

                "It's 1776 all over again" -- J.W.P. (after Yogi Berra, in the spirit of Tom Paine)

                by wardlow on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:05:30 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I loved your story (none)
                How is your best friend doing, if you don't mind my asking?  Has he come to terms with his sexuality and found a life partner?
                •  Haven't seen him in several years. (none)
                  We lost touch a couple of years ago.

                  (I had some serious problems with bipolar disorder, and didn't put any effort into maintaining any of my old friendships.....)

                  Writing the previous comment actually reminded me that I haven't talked to him in WAY too long, and I should look him up. In fact, I think I'll do it right now....  :)

                  congratulations on your foreskin -- osteriser

                  by bartman on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:52:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I understand (none)
                    Years ago, I lost touch with my oldest friend for a while because I was going through a bout of depression.  But I looked her up again after a couple of years and we are as close as ever now.  I wish you the same luck!
  •  Shotgun Pellets? (4.00)
    They must have been using pellet guns....

    But anyway...I think there is a more interesting issue at play here...

    There has been a lot of yelling and carping about media outlets being "intimidated" into not showing the cartoons from Denmark.  It will be interesting to see where people come down regarding the publication of these photographs.

    We live in an amazing time.  The great American experiment, our values, and system of government are being tested on a seemingly daily basis.  There are stark questions being raised and people are now required to truly test their principals against real world issues.

    Freedom of Speech
    Freedom of Assembly
    Civil Rights
    Rule of Law

    As bad as it seems right now, I think this is healthy for our country.  I hope that I am right.  But there does remain a chance that the current propaganda machine in place will spin us into oblivion.

    But I for one, have faith in the American people.  I have my days where my faith is tested, but I am not willing to give up.  We have fought to hard and come too far.

    Chris Matthews must apologize! --- Join the Google Bomb

    by justmy2 on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 03:58:47 PM PST

    •  OT (none)
      how's the google bombing going?  I noticed open letter is only four from the top if you google chris matthews.   I clicked on your link four or five times to help out.
    •  More Likely Dog Bites (none)
      Couple years ago our dog was attacked by two German Shepards. The bite marks loooked very similar - small puncture wounds from the canine teeth and almost always in pairs ( from the opposing jaws ). Vet said that the small puncture marks are misleading as the canine teeth create long tears in the underlying tissue after puncturing the surface of the skin. The bites are a lot more septic than BB's or pellets and almost always results in nasty infections.
    •  Not exactly a Pellet gun (none)
       A shotgun with birdshot shells is extremely danger to people, especially within the probable 30 feet that Cheney fired it!  I sometimes worry that we tend to blame Cheney more than Bush.  Bush is our President and I am sure complacent with Cheney in all of their neocon endeavors.
  •  Isn't this the same US soldier (none)
    who was prosecuted?  Does anyone know if all the photos feature him or related to him?
    •  Charles Granier? (none)
      I believe that was his name.

      Looks like it's hard work keeping America free!

      (dark humor sarcasm)

      "Nordic, one of the most obnoxious people at Daily Kos." -- DHinMI

      by Nordic on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:16:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I guess the reason I asked (none)
        if all the photos were related to Grainer is that it sort of plays into the administration's meme of look, this was one bad apple.  I don't buy it, but some might.
      •  Charles Graner, Jr.= shame of U.S. Army Reserve (none)

         Spec. Charles Graner, Jr. of the 372nd Military Police Company Army Reserve unit based near Cumberland, Pa.
        Hometown: Uniontown, Pa.
        •  That's Cumberland.. (none)

          I'm from near there.

          I keep forgetting those soldiers are too.

          What I want to know is, who made up the program and who gave the orders to do these things.  Or did that just get swept into the dustbin?

          Jack Abramoff: Directed $3M in donations to both parties. Charged his clients $100M in fees and funnelled it all to the GOP.

          by daria g on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:10:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I share same concern (none)
            as ksho1, that Granier is gonna be the face of the acts in the newly disclosed old photos and White House will argue "same ol', same ol'," just the same bad apple. So hard to break through the ceiling on the Abu Ghraib torture. Waiting for a higher up colonel or general to blow the whistle. Meanwhile fallout will likely be worst in other countries and Muslim world and hope we don't get some kind of violent blowback. The humiliation of these detainees cries out to be avenged. Meanwhile some detainees are real terrorists -- I prefer to call them "criminals" -- who allegedly committed horrendous crimes who should be brought to public justice, if their guilt can be proven, which might ultimately have a deterrent effect. But Rummy, Cheney, Bush and Abu Gonzales seem to have no interest in deterrence.    

            "It's 1776 all over again" -- J.W.P. (after Yogi Berra, in the spirit of Tom Paine)

            by wardlow on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:34:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  i'm so ashamed of my country. (4.00)
    we all should be. these are our tax dollars at work.

    we have earned the world's scorn.

    we are all going to hell.

    "after the Rapture, we get all their shit"

    now rocking the UK. check out An Angry Yank in Kent, yo.

    by lipris on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:11:24 PM PST

    •  I did nothing to earn the world's scorn (3.66)
      In fact, I've done as much as possible to oppose this war, this president, his cronies, etc.  I don't blame myself for any of this.

      Just like I don't think you can blame all Muslims for the acts of the asshole rioters, you can't blame all Americans for the acts of asshole soldiers.  Both are a minority of their larger groups...

      •  In your name (4.00)
        Like it or not, this government represents all Americans. I don't even blame the asshole soldiers. I blame the assholes who gave the orders to do this.

        Who do you blame: the soldiers gassing the Jews, their commanders, or the guys who put such a  policy in place?

        Take those Abu Ghraib photos personally.

        •  I take them very seriously (4.00)
          and as i said below, I think that this administration should be tried for war crimes.  

          I personally blame the administration for ordering the war, the people in congress who authorized military action, and the soldiers who act like the main guy in all those photos.  I don't care if he was following orders or not--look at his face--he is thoroughly enjoying every minute of it.  The world would be a better place without people like him (and Bush) in it.

        •  All of them! Graner was a corrections (4.00)
          officer who had been fired for misconduct from a prison in PA(or WV). He, and everyone else there, knew that this kind of behavior wpuld be unacceptable at home. As I beleive was established at Nurenberg after WWII, 'I was following orders' is not a valid excuse for clearly immoral and beastial behavior.

          All of them, from privates up through the generals and President Bush, should be prosecuted for war crimes. The only difference is in the level of culpability, with those at the top being more culpable. Like conservatives are fond of repeatedly saying, the best deterrent is the certainty of punishment.

        •  blame the people who elected (4.00)
          the assholes who put the policy in place.

          I hold ALL GOP voters responsible.

          •  By that logic (none)
            ..blame all the people who did not bother to vote.

            Sorry, the old adage rings painfully true that in a democratically elected state a country gets the type of governnment it deserves.

            Again, these pictures are in your name. Republican..Democrat...non-voters. Be ashamed and take your own measure of responsibilty, whatever that is.

            •  Lieberman (4.00)
              This is the reason my number one political priority is to reform the Democratic Party, starting with getting rid of Joe Lieberman, who voted to confirm Alberto Gonzalez.

              Voting for a Dem Presidential candidate is not enough. We have to have the Party on the right side of the world and on the right side of morality. That's not a few people in the party, but the whole party, together.

            •  I Agree With You (none)

              Non-voters are just as complicit in the ascendancy of the Bush administration as those who voted Republican.

              And the failure of the American people to rise up en masse in the face of constant scandal and horrific acts perpetrated in the name of your country is also shameful.

      •  We Did Nothing (none)
        to earn the world's scorn...but we have it anyway.

        We all have done what we can to fight against the Evil that is the Bush Administration. But in the eyes of the world, this was done by "America".

        •  You are quite correct... (3.66)
          We Did Nothing

          And that is why you have justly earnt the world's scorn.

          None of this is new, it has been going on for decades.  It has finally got to big to ignore, that is all.

          In the past when any suggestion of anything like this has arisen it has been tossed in the 'too hard' basket.  So you have prisons in which being raped seems to be consdered part of the 'punishment', a health care system that does not provide for those in inclement conditions, the most corrupt 'democratic' system in the world.  And you imagine your hands are clean....

          It is America's sheer hypocrisy that has brought the world's scorn upon it.

          Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

          by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:08:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  True, but... (4.00)
        But the military (supposedly) has a direct line of authority, and therefore responsibility, for the actions of its soldiers.

        The Muslim clerics can no more control their followers than the Pope can control all Catholics.  Influence, sure--but does the Pope get in trouble if one of his faith has pre-marital intercourse?

        The point being that SOMEBODY had direct authority over those soldiers who... [having hard time with words here] perpetrated these horrific acts.  And they were either AWOL or complicit.  Bam.  Nailed.

        But will anybody accountable actually be charged?  My hopes are slim.

        He not busy being born is busy dying... Bob Dylan

        by Precedent on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:31:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Jeanne at Body and Soul (3.66)
          has this to say:
          The soldiers who murdered an innocent Afghan taxi driver named Dilawar will certainly not be punished. Tim Golden, who has been doing holy work on this story for a long time, has a must-read piece in today's Times about the Army's muddled prosecution of those responsible for the deaths of Dilawar and another prisoner, Mullah Habibullah, at the Bagram detention center. The worst punishment anyone has gotten for these two murders is five months in prison. Golden's delineation of the reasons for this failure to hold anyone accountable are fascinating -- and tragic.

          One reason is simply bizarre: So many soldiers participated in the beatings of the two prisoners, that to assign guilt to any one would be difficult. Two things you have to remember about the law if you're going to survive in George Bush's America:

          If the president does it, it's legal.

          If everyone does it, it's okay.

          Second, the courts simply have more sympathy for American soldiers than Afghan civilians:

          In the modest Fort Bliss courtrooms where the trials have been held, the two Afghan victims have rarely been evoked, except in autopsy photographs. But much testimony focused on hardships faced by the soldiers themselves: the poor training they received, the tough conditions in which they operated, the vague rules with which they had to contend. As in other recent abuse cases, Army judges and jurors also seemed to consider the soldiers' guilt or innocence with an acute sense of the sacrifices they had made in serving overseas.

          Lt. Col. Joseph A. Simonelli Jr., who sat on the jury for a former Bagram guard who admitted to repeatedly striking one of the detainees who died, was asked after the trial how he had viewed the defendant. The soldier, convicted of maiming, assault and other crimes, was sentenced to only a demotion in rank, and honorably discharged.

          "This individual was an American citizen who had been called up," Colonel Simonelli, a Fort Bliss battalion commander, said in an interview. "He had volunteered, and when they called upon him to perform his duties in a time of war, he did it without question."

          Here's Jeralyn's take: U.S. Military Torturers at Bagram Escape Punishment
      •  the last straw (none)
        what a fucking dirty, vulgar, rogue nation we've become.
        because we've been participating in the political circus and "lost" (thanks to Diebold) to the fiends who brought this about does not excuse any of us from shared responsibility.
        time to lay down on the tracks.  stop business as usual.  failing that, we have to find a way to secede...  break up the violent behometh called USA.
        the world demands nothing less.
        our victems demand nothing less.
        our founding fathers demand nothing less as they turn in their graves.

        ps - to anyone who thinks secession is unreasonable and america is still salvageable, please take another look at the photos.

        "Yer doin' a heck of a job, Brownie!" -- tone-deaf, man-child preznit

        by tsurube on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:32:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  sorry man, (none)
        you ain't gonna absolve yourself that easily.  we're all in this ship together.

        so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

        by MetaProphet on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:44:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Scorn is not a necesary condition for shame (none)
        I vote for the right people.  I send money to the right causes.  I hold candles at vigils with likeminded people.  I write letters.  But I'm not brave enough to get up from my desk, walk into the busy interesection outside of my window, and lay down until this all stops.  That's a shame.
    •  I am screaming....................... (4.00)
      NOT IN MY NAME, NOT IN MY NAME, NOT IN MY NAME.  And I'm having trouble typing because of angry tears in my eyes.  America I don't love you anymore.

      "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

      by Lying eyes on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:59:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then... (1.68) something about it.

        Talk is cheap.  Go lie down on some railroad tracks.  When enough of you have died you will have some impact.

        Not that I am not advocating violence, I am advocating placing yourself in a position where they must perform violence on you to pursue their aims.

        If you do not oppose it then you support it.  And whimpering on a blog is not opposing it.

        Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

        by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:14:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  excuse me (3.25)
          but you are an asshole.
          •  Thank you, Anthony......... (3.50)
            I second that opinion.

            "He that sees but does not bear witness, be accursed" Book of Jubilees

            by Lying eyes on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:18:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  no, he's not all wrong (4.00)
            ..our whimpering, myself included in that, on  blogs is not enough.

            We haven't stopped this....but we could.

            If we wanted to badly enough.

            The internet has been a marvelous tool of information about our goverment, but it also has become a way to distract us from taking the fight from the netsphere to the real has become a substitute for real life action.

            Hypocrisy in anything may deceive the cleverest and most penetrating man, but the least wide-awake of children recognizes it....

            by Cal45 on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:32:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  He is assuming (none)
              that posting on a blog and participating at a higher, more physical level are mutually exclusive when they are not.  He does not know how I or others here have participated in more physical ways.  

              I understand his anger but I think it is misplaced.

              The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

              by TXsharon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:16:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know how to do that (3.60)
          lying on a railroad track thing.

          How about showing us how it's done?

          The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

          by TXsharon on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:57:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I did show you how it is done... (4.00)
   1974 when I faced a military tribunal and told them that the only time I would shoot anybody other than is self defense was a person who gave me an order to shoot anyone else and tried to enforce it.

            You talk the talk, try walking the walk.

            I did.

            I also find it wuite interesting that essentially the smae comment gets very different ratings in different parts of the thread.

            Bottom line is, you either have the courage of your convictions or you don't.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

            by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:06:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I certainly appreciate your sacrifices and (4.00)
              efforts to right wrongs.  My point is that you are posting on this website while putting others down for doing the same.

              Maybe the reason I got some 4s on my comment is becaue some people know me here and know what I have done to try to right wrongs.  No, I haven't yet parked myself on a railroad track partly because I have a child who has been abandoned by his father.  If a train kills me, he might have to go live with some crazy right-wing family!  That doesn't mean that I won't lie down on railroad tracks if given the opportunity.

              Trust that the FBI knows who I am and so do Bu$h's Secret Service men.

              The Christian Right is neither Witness Every Day

              by TXsharon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:11:41 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  And what fucking railroad track are you (3.40)
          lying on.

          Some of have been working hard to prevent the shit that is happening and we have been working against Bush and the other scum since before they stole the election in 2000.

          Now it would appear you should either get busy helping in the work, or pipe down and go sit in a corner.

          I tried to refrain from commenting back to you up thread, but after you poped up every few comments with that crap I have heard enough of your shit.

          So take it or leave it, But what ever you do, I will not  elevate you to the level of even bing deserving of an argument.

          Aint scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. Aint scared of nobody cause I want my freedom now.

          by eaglecries on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:02:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh... (2.33)
            ...I lay on my railroad track in 1970 (I said 1974 elsewhere - a mistake).

            So take it or leave it, But what ever you do, I will not  elevate you to the level of even bing deserving of an argument.

            How very republican of you.  

            Nevertheless nothing is going to change until some people show the courage of their convictions instead of playing in a relatively safe sandbox.  Read some about Ghandi.

            Whining and moaning won't do much good, particularly here where you are preaching to the choir.  It is long past time for action.

            Words are not enough.  People are dying.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

            by Truckle on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:12:22 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  What? (none)
          I'm sorry, but I'm trying to get my mind the hell around the statement:

          "Not that I am not advocating violence, I am advocating placing yourself in a position where they must perform violence on you to pursue their aims."

          Huh?  You believe that pacifistic non-violence is to instigate violence?  What kind of double think is that?

          I read this comment of yours before and it left me fairly perplexed and now that i've thought on it even more, it seems you are more than a troll.  You are asking people to do things to expose themselves to violence to what... instigate other people (police?) to perform violence?  What in the name of the "revolution"?  Who are you, Pendejo from Marc and Marc (a "mythical little person" btw)?  Give me a freaking break!

          The reason to perform civil disobedience isn't to instigate the authorities to beat you up!

          What kind of weird toll kool-aid are YOU drinking?  Is that what you think civil disobedience is about? To get beat up?  How old are you anyway?  13?

          Give me a freaking break.

          This is not what civil disobedience is about.  You perform it for one reason, to stop something.  If you get beaten or are subjected to violence, you don't react with equal violence, you take it, but that's not the purpose.  You are trying to show people that power needs to be challenged.  You aren't, however trying to instigate an attack against you. No one wants to do this to be purposefully beaten, and if they do, they are fairly sick in their heads. Non-violent resistance isn't about trying to instigate people into violence, it's about the exact opposite, that through non-violent resistance we counteract the powers of control and violence by placing ourselves on the line with peaceful resistance and try to CHANGE the dynamic by example! Or even SHAME them into behaving with decency. And with some hope, enlightenment.

          Violence begets violence and sacrificing yourself on a railroad track is STUPID.  (I'm not even sure where you got that bizarre idea from).

          Truckle, you get a troll rating from me dude.  You are just trying to piss people off (and this response is also a pacifistic protest... against YOU).

          You need to take some non-violence protest courses.  I would suggest you look into Wellstone Action, but I think you are a bit dangerous for them right now.

          Until then, read up a little on Martin Luther King. He didn't want the police committing violence on his people. This isn't about "I'll die for you" to make a statment, or "I'll suffer for you".  He surely didn't want to die, Even though I know he knew they were gunning for him.  Nor did he want violence committed on him or his family.  Nor did he want the cops to react with that kind of reaction.

          He (and Coretta) was a man of non-violence and peace and cared about those who put their lives on the line with him. He was a very good man.

          Other suggestion: And read works by the Dalai Lama about his struggle to rectify situations.  In fact, just read anything he has.

          it's worthwhile reading...

          •  Ever heard of a... (none)
            ...straw man?  Well, you can follow one if you wish, I prefer to follow Ghandi.  I have not suggested the instigation of violence.  Quite the contrary I have suggested civil disobedience.

            It is long overdue.  People are dying every day.  Even more are suffering horribly and yet more are having their lives destroyed.  Right now, while you read this post.

            Those who will not put themselves in harm's way to stop it are by default condoning it.  Remeber Bush's little blessing?  "You are with us or you are against us".  It is time more than a few of you showed you were against him.  The only way you can effectively do that is to put yourself in harm's way.

            You think Fitzgerald doesn't know the risk he is taking?  The other whistle blowers and opposers?  There a small legion of them but not enough.

            You all (by which I mean most of course) seem to be waiting for someone else to raise their head, risk their neck.  In the meantime people die by the thousands.

            I would say there are a lot of people besides me that are pissed.

            As for the troll rating, ha!  I got enough of those.  I also got a few fours.  Enough to show that what I had to say had value.  Those that couldn't see it are not much better (and may be) Bush's enablers.

            At least you had the courtesy for dialog.  But if you are going to have dialog you should not try to censor the other side.

            Today is (I think) the first time I have rated and commented.  I feel it should be either one or the other.

            Oh, and it is quite likely that I was reading the words of the Dalai Lama before you were born (the last one of course).  This one seems to be a major improvement.

            Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

            by Truckle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 02:44:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well... (none)
              "I am advocating placing yourself in a position where they must perform violence on you to pursue their aims."

              SOUNDS like looking to instigate violence.

              •  Not at all... (none)
                All violence is a dangerous practice and to be abhorred but the state rules (when it fails to govern) by having a legal monopoly on violence.  Without even considering the morality of it if you play that game you lose.  That is their turf.

                What you can do is get so much in the way that you make it very expensive, embarassing and generally difficult to achieve their aims.

                I am not talking about inciting a riot.  Do that and you lose.

                But how can people be concerned with their jobs, risk of arrest, etc. when people are dieing en mass daily?

                Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

                by Truckle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:42:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (3.00)
              If the only point of putting oneself in harm's way is to that you can turn around and harass people on blogs, it sounds like a pretty pointless enterprise to me.

              You yourself have done nothing more here than the commenters you aim to insult, except to issue commands and name-drop Ghandi and the Dalai Lama.

              Put yourself in harm's way? To what end? When? Where? How? If you've got some suggestions in that department that are more productive than, say, laying down on a railroad track, then post them. Until you do that, you're just blowing hot air with the rest of us.

              Check out The Flypaper Theory, a group blog in Memphis, Tennessee

              by autoegocrat on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 04:52:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  May I ask (none)
              what you are doing to "put yourself on the railroad tracks" as you put it?  You say that you did your part by standing up to the draft in the 1970s, and while I respect that, does that somehow negate an obligation to do something now?

              I think many of the people who were angered by your original comment might have been more willing to listen if you'd said, "Instead of just posting on a blog, you (or better yet, 'we') shohuld do X, Y, and Z."

              •  If you wish. (none)
                I didn't stand up to the draft.  I went in.  I am not in law a pacifist because I believe in the right of self defence.  So, I went in and told them what I was likely to do with their wepons, well it is a long story.  But no one can call me a draft dodger or that I merely fought the draft.

                As for now.  I'm old, sick and tired and have dependants but even so, if my country were in as bad a pickle as yours I most certainly would do something.  But it isn't yet.  Quite.  It may still turn rom the dark side or be turned by the light of day.

                WRT to your last paragraph.  Due to your laws and mine any specific suggestion I might make could be taken as incitement, so I best not make any.

                Truckle the Uncivil, Nullus Anxietas Sanguinae. Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.00

                by Truckle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:28:06 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I admit I am a bit afraid (2.50)
          Will you hold my hand and lay down on the tracks with me?

          Yeah, I didn't think so.

    •  America, the world hates you! (none)
      "This is truly American ugliness that no other country in the world can compete with," journalist Saleh al-Humaidi told Reuters in Yemen.
  •  And the far right, the ones that seem (4.00)
    to think they alone are the ones who are so close to god, they support this?

    This is no "Club Gitmo" and it is killing me to see this, though I have "known" things are not "good" but once again our reputation has been harmed almost beyond repair, let alone the very acts that have happened.

    I have tears in my eyes right now, tears for those who suffered, tears for those who have no morals, who ordered these acts...and tears for all of us as this is a reflection of our nation (regardless of whether we are "red" or "blue")

    May god have mercy on us all.

  •  Horrifying photos (4.00)
    If the Middle East was upset over the Danish cartoons, wait until they get a load of these.  This administration should be tried for war crimes.
    •  It actually would offend me a lot if the (4.00)
      reaction to these photos is milder than the reaction to the Danish cartoons.

      At bottom, I think that even devout Muslims must realize that the cartoonists don't know enough about their religion even to blaspheme in any meaningful way.

      But every human being on this earth must realize that whatever is going on in the photo with the small child in it is despicable beyond belief and a depraved crime under any moral code.

      How could someone throw kerosene bombs at a harmless embassy and just shrug off the photo of that child?

      On the other hand, I also hope that somehow there is a G-d who will help us all see that more cruelty will just create more innocent victims, not undo what has been done to the people pictured here.

      •  What child? (none)
        I may be missing it, but I don't see any children in these photos.
        •  I think the guy on the right in photo 10 (none)
          (with the person sitting down facing away from us) is a boy of about 10 or 11. To me, the person facing away looks like a woman, but I guess it's hard to tell.
          •  Jesus. (none)
            I think you're right. Fuck.
            •  note well re: women and children (4.00)
              If you are talking about the picture where a foursome of naked prisoners are made to sit, two facing the wall and two sort of squatting opon their shoulders, you are incorrect about it being women or young childern that are facing the wall.  The details of this particular photo are already known and formed the basis of several trials already.  Again, I refer people to the HARPER's article, FEB 2006 by JoAnn Wypijewski.  

              But it is known that some video of a young boy being raped by Iraqi guards is among the documents sought by the ACLU in thier suit.  So yes, there is lots of sickening stuff still unseen.

              And, space permitting I'd like to quote comedian Bill Hicks about the disparity about people getting upset about innocent women and children suffering.  "Either you love ALL of humanity, or  you don't."  Does it really matter the age or sex of someone being tortured?  

              •  Realistically, no (none)
                Symbolically, yes.

                Remember what photo turned much of the country against Vietnam - a little girl, running naked from her burning village.

              •  He means (none)
                the guy standing on the right, not the persons facing the wall. That guy looks like a kid to me.
                •  the one standing on the right (none)
                  is a child, and it looks as if the one seated behind him is also a child. the one seated behind the man on the left looks like it could be a woman. i wonder if this is a family???? i wonder if they made the one with rapeist written on the thigh do something to the guys family???
                  •  Yes, the one with "rapest" on the (none)

                    Is the soldier we see the woman who got courtmartialed over all of this? If so, I think the person standing facing her, on our right, seems to be a lot shorter than she is and therefore might be a child.

                    If the person who is talking about the 4-prisoner photo is thinking of that photo, then I'm sure the commenter is right and I'm wrong, but I'm not sure s/he is thinking about the same photo.

          •  not that it matters (none)
            but i think that's a man, i can see stubble on his chin
          •  there's hair betweeen umbilicus and pubis (none)
            secondary sex characteristics.  less hair on chest, but could be as old as 16-20 years of age.  not that that makes any of this any better.

            "Never separate the words you speak from the life you live" - Paul Wellstone

            by vome minnesota on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:01:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I have to agree (none)
        If a whole community can turn to rioting over some fairly mild (though still idiotic) satire, I would expect at least the same over genuine atrocities being committed.
      •  i dont think we'll see a lot (none)
        I don't think we're going to see a lot of protests that make the news. They already held rallies, against the war, against Guantanamo, and against the Quran being flushed, and the US government demonstrated that they don't care more than words. They locked Grainer up, investigated and said that "no soldier reported any flushing of Qurans" (despite the numerous accusations), and Bush said "We do not torture."

        Muslims know they're not going to get Bush to apologize or change his ways. This may have been the 5th straw to the pile that broke the camel's back once he already collapsed from the first 3. Bush will say they're not his, he punished Grainer (but not those in charge), he is against torture.

        This is much worse than the Danish cartoons. Sexual abuse and humiliation a fate worse than death, for so many people out there. People died in Abu Ghraib, and the US has now given an excuse for countries like Egypt and Syria to torture, as they literally said "America does it." Will we see a protest? Protesting was and is to send a message. Bush decided to ignore about 5 years of them so far, so I sense people will give up.

        I'm worried what repercussions this will have. One of the London suicide bombers was supposedly all shook up and anti-British because he heard the US flushed Qurans in Guantanamo, and refused to stop torturing people. This stuff generates sympathy for terrorists. The same way some Americans cheered on the Abu Ghraib abuse because it was "getting back at the Arabs for beheading people," this will make drive some people away from helping us, and we do need their help.

    •  There are 60 of them in total (4.00)
      These are the ones which are publishable.
    •  part of the reaction to the cartoons (4.00)
      is that they know this shit is going on. this is only a secret in the american media.

      crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

      by wu ming on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:05:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  wow (none)
        didn't think of that.
      •  minorities always know the deal... (4.00)
        since their the ones getting the taken back in the toolshed, back alley, dark place where authorities can beat you in peace while the priviliged society goes on with business as usual.

        For those that are shocked and awed, what's the big suprise?  Everyone forget Rodney King already?

        so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

        by MetaProphet on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:10:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  additionally (none)
          anyone surprised by what went down in the gulags need only look at how regular american prison inmates fare. bad apples don't fall far from the tree.

          crimson gates reek with meat and wine/while on the streets, bones of the frozen dead -du fu (712-770)

          by wu ming on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 11:35:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  What we may be dealing with tomorrow (4.00)
    Nobody knows at this point whether this is all of the remaining photos and videos or not, but we should look at what the Senators who viewed the photos said at the time.

    •  I believe these may have been the photos (4.00)
      that Durbin looked at and made his now infamous comment about thinking it looked like Nazi Germany's work.  I wonder if all of the people who attacked him for those comments on the liberal side of the spectrum are finally going to recant.  What I have just seen is really too much for me.  I suppose it doesn't look so much like Nazi work as I have always thought their torturous ways were fairly neat and tidy compared to what these images look like.  However, the sentiment seems to be the same to me no matter what the divergence in techniques may be.  It is all torture carried out by very disturbed and evil regimes.  What these regimes have in common is a notion that they have a right to torture people, human beings, mere mortals, persons with lives.  Let's not forget that an incredibly high percentage of those who survived this torture were also ultimately released because it was determined that the prisoners in question had done nothing wrong.  Okay so they didn't send them to the gas chamber like the Nazis did, but they did release them knowing that the detainees would tell their friends and probably create a mythology of fear which the Nazis did do in the early stages of their murderous plan.  This policy is shameful and horrifying.
      •  At least as bad as what Saddam did (none)
        bloody hell.  literally.

        "Never separate the words you speak from the life you live" - Paul Wellstone

        by vome minnesota on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:02:54 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm afraid not (4.00)
          I share the outrage behind your comparison, but here's only one account of torture under Hussein, excerpted from Robert Fisk's book The Great War for Civilisation:

          The torture techniques in Baghdad were routine and varied in severity.  The electric shocks could be everywhere.  But sometimes they would burn people on the genitals and go on burning until they were completely burned off.  They did the same with toes.  They sometimes beat people with iron on the stomach or the chest.  But with me, they were very careful not to leave any sign on me.  I saw one man and they had used an iron on his stomach.  They used drills and made holes in bones, arms and legs.  I saw an officer, Naqib Hamid, and they dissolved his feet in acid.  There was another torture where they would put sulphuric acid in a tub.  They would take a man and start by dissolving his hands.  Once, the founder of the Dawa party, Abdul Saheb Khail, was totally dissolved.  Baraq said to me: "Have you heard about Khail -- there is where we dissolved him."

          Another account describes how a woman at the internal security headquarters, accompanied by her three children, saw her 10-year-old daughter, six-year-old son, and infant boy killed right in front of her, one after the other, and sent out on the rubbish trolley.

          I wouldn't argue with you that after a certain level of barbarity, it makes no sense to weigh atrocities - bombing entire villages is no better.

          I only care about our making our arguments without diminishing the brutality of others.

      •  And we have ICE employees behaving (none)
        like Nazis on U.S soil:
        Easy to Hate, II: "It was like Nazis"

        ... a reader sent me the following email. I reprint it with his kind permission:

        Another story to add, from friends of mine. He is a naturalized American. His wife still retains her German citizenship. They were my neighbors.

        After 30 years here they moved back to Germany two years ago. Last month they returned for a visit. Her green card had expired, requiring a visit to ICE at DHS to arrange a tourist visa. They were horrified by the treatment they observed of (presumed) Mexicans (or other Central Americans). I am quoting here: "It was like Nazis."

        They both lived through WWII as children.

        The Nazi comparison is overused, and often employed inaccurately and lazily. However, certain people -- by virtue of their own life experience, and when their observations are confirmed by other information we possess -- are more than entitled to employ it when they conclude it is deserved.

    •  NOT the remaining pix and video (none)
      i'm pretty sure i've seen some of these before.  and if not these exact photos, they were in the same series.  i've seen the picture of graner wailing on the guy, and i think i've seen the one where he's pulling teeth.  and the hall shot with the dogs, i know i've seen some others in that series - the well known pic with the terrified guy and the dog i think is a close-up of this same situation seen here.  in other words, i think these are just more pictures from darby's CD.

      we know there are worse out there, much worse.

      we know because of at least two things:

      • hersh's statements about what is shown
      • congress' reaction when the DOD showed them

      recall that even after the original AG pix had been out for two weeks, all the congresscritters looked seriously shaken and ill after seeing the pictures that are still being hidden.  all except tom delay, who looked like he was just walking out of a late-running bachelor party and said, "looks like someone was trying to make some kind of porno movie in there."  apparently he's seen much better nasty porn and snuff films.

      it's not enough to survive: one has to be worthy of surviving — admiral adama

      by zeke L on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:53:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I feel sick (4.00)
    That's all I got. Nothing else to say. And normally when I say it I'm being metaphorical.

    I feel sick.

  •  I recommend this diary (4.00)

    ... we now know a lot of things, most of which, we already knew... (-dash888)

    by Tirge Caps on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 04:59:14 PM PST

  •  Ugh... (none)
    What the hell is happening in that 3rd picture? Is he removing the guy's teeth?
    •  Looks like he's treating a wound (none)
      But it is Graner so I wouldn't put anything past him.
      •  He is... (none)
        ...secret torture is like domestic and child abuse - don't leave permanent injuries as they become evidence. Knocking out teeth would be a no-no, so he's most likely treating an injury.

        It's all about soft tissue damage.

    •  Is he removing the gold fillings? (none)
      Looks like the guy is dead. Grainer's probably removing the guy's gold fillings, to make a little money. The Nazis did the same thing (well, forced prisoners to do it) in their extermination camps.

      Accountability moment, my ass!

      by orthogonal on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:22:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  yes (none)
      you can see the results of his handiwork in pic 7 and maybe 13.

      it's not enough to survive: one has to be worthy of surviving — admiral adama

      by zeke L on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:57:24 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  sutures (none)
      According to the Australian video news segment, the man split his chin open after being beaten with a hood over his head. A medic then stitched him up.

      However, I remember in 2004 the story of a detainee who was either bit by the dog or lacerated (maybe the same guy). The medic let the untrained private do the stitching, basically practicing on an Iraqi.

  •  I look forward to the day that Cheney is (none)
    tried for war crimes. The rest of the administration, yes, them too.

    But especially Cheney.

    "I did NOT have sex with that lobbyist!"

    by donailin on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:09:20 PM PST

  •  I think the fifth from bottom (none), semen on the guy's mouth?

    This is going to cause a SHITLOAD of trouble.

    •  Freedom Sperm (none)
      That's not semen.

      That's "Freedom Sperm on the March"™.

      Accountability moment, my ass!

      by orthogonal on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:12:16 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Damn, that made me revulse (none)
      At first glance, I labelled it as slobbering spit due to stress and punishment. I pray that you're wrong...but now that I look at it again, you may not be.
      •  I'd guess food. (none)
        The photo is a flash picture, and the shadow of the subject (guy with stuff on mouth) is also on the wall - meaning someone other than the photographer is holding a powerful flashlight in his eyes.  Which to me suggests possibly the guy was being made to eat his food fast, in the dark while being blinded by a light.  This was a tactic - "you have five minutes to eat" and then they give they prisoner some food in the dark but don't tell him where it is, etc.  
        •  Vomiting? (none)
          It looks to me like the man was vomiting. Maybe he'd been hit in the stomach?


          "...give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot." - Broussard

          by troutwaxer on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:47:19 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  maybe toothpaste (none)
      who knows what it really is, but it's pretty clear what it's intended to look like.  all in order to circulate back home and humiliate the man.

      depraved any way you slice it.

      it's not enough to survive: one has to be worthy of surviving — admiral adama

      by zeke L on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:08:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Those made my stomach turn. (none)
    And I honestly feel so ashamed of our service men and women who participated that I could cry.

    With the violence already brewing over the cartoon, I'm afraid these may spell big trouble for us.

  •  Frat boy pranks (4.00)
    Nothing to see here.

    Move along.

    Just some frat pranks getting a little out of hand.


  •  ACLU case (4.00)
    What is the status of the appeal? Do we know that these are the very same photos at issue in that case, or are there more horrors yet to come?

    God damn George Bush and Dick Cheney to hell. That is all.

    Sometimes you cover your ass with the lame excuses you have, instead of the lame excuses you wish you had. (-3.00, -5.49)

    by litigatormom on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:13:03 PM PST

    •  Based on hearsay (none)
      they are not the same ones that the Pentagon is trying to suppress as the ones we see now are "moderate" in comparison. However, we'll know more in due time.
      •  Well (none)
        This is 15 photos.  The show claims to have 60, which naturally they don't want to release all of before air time.  There are also videos however.  I guess we'll see whether Dateline has any videos as well.
    •  We won't know until later (none)
      The show claims that they are the photos that ACLU sued to get released, but there are also the videos and the ACLU will probably keep their case going until they know that the administration has released all of the pictures and videos.
    •  According to the Docket (4.00)
      The appeal (05-6286, Second Circuit) is now proceeding on an expedited schedule, as follows:
      • The government appellants' opening brief was due on Feb. 10 (this is not yet showing up on the docket sheet, but that isn't unusual for the Second Circuit to post the entry).
      • The plaintiffs-appellees' brief is due March 3.
      • The government's reply brief is due March 17.
      • Oral argument has been proposed for the week of April 3.
      It's also worth noting that there are continuing proceedings in the district court (docket no. 04-4151), including further motions and cross-motions for summary judgment.  I haven't had a chance to look at these, however, so I can't say for sure what the subject of the newer motions might be.  The timetable for these is roughly similar to that of the appeal, with the final reply brief scheduled to be submitted by March 20.
  •  I always say... (none)
    If you're gonna graffiti somebody's ass...

    Proper spelling always makes a better impression.

  •  I hate to look, (4.00)
    but we have to look. This is our country. This is being done in the name of our country. These motherfuckers need to be busted once and for all. I'm just crying here.

    "If you're going through hell, keep going". -Winston Churchill

    by One bite at a time on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:14:55 PM PST

  •  Am I the only person (4.00)
    that dropped to their knees to pray that these were fake?

    My Gods, we're done...I feel sick and heartbroken beyond words.

    I feel even sicker knowing the typical American media response "Freedom is Hard Work!" "This is a Liberal Media Smear." or "They're Muslims so Who Cares?" the last going right along with the crypto-genocidal talk I've heard in more than a few circles as of late in the wake of the Cartoon Controversy.

    Gods...I almost wish they never became public.....

  •  No Bravery (flash) (4.00)

    psst... pass the word!


  •  The blood on the door (none)
    looks like it was from banging the standing man's head on it. One of the senators commented about a picture or video showing a man getting his head banged on a door.
  •  Fucking sickening (4.00)
    To the people of Iraq, we are sorry. We did not elect the fascists who started this war.
  •  They're all awful... (4.00)
    but it's the 6th one down that literally turned my stomach.  It's the look on his face - that shiteating grin, as if he'd just "bagged" some big game, and couldn't wait to get back to the lodge and brag with his drinking buddies.  


    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle. -Philo of Alexandria

    by vansterdam on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:28:52 PM PST

    •  Kind of makes you wonder (none)
      how HE'S being treated in prison.  My guess is the military prison guards treat him like some kind of redneck hero.

      What would Jesus do? He'd probably surrender and then quietly submit to execution.

      by Magnus Greel on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:33:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  His SS ilk could be torturing YOU (none)
      someday. Make no mistake. The Christian right jackbooted haters would do that to all of us here in an instant.

      There is no "core" of decency in this country. There are some decent folks. But the structures that run America, the lines of power, have no goodness to them.

      Remember the face of that bastard and be haunted by it.

      The right is killing America

      by grushka on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:35:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Good god (none)
    what have we done?  

    "The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." --George W. Bush, Austin, Texas, Nov. 22, 2000

    by littlesky on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:30:51 PM PST

  •  recommending this diary (none)
    so sickening.
  •  Someday these fascist pigs (4.00)
    may be doing this shit to you, or me, or my family or your family.

    Not that it doesn't make me fuckin sick when it's done to Iraqis (or the other brown-skinned people we seem to have been perpetually bombing for 60 years now).

    I don't really consider myself an American any more. I mean, I'm morally guilty for what this fascist country does because I live here and live fairly well on its rickety, imperialist-driven economy. I have no illusions about my inherent guilt.

    But as for the flagrant, war-loving, motherfucking ACTIVE douchebaggery that infests 50% of this country - I deny it outright. I hate it so much it hurts.

    I know this should be "our country, our flag, too." But come on. You know what they've done to this country. It's not even partly ours anymore, if it ever was.

    A $ trillion down the drain. A world lit on fire. Thousands upon thousands dead. All thanks to the cosmic evil of conservatism, and its grinning death heads in the white house.

    I spit in all their faces.

    The right is killing America

    by grushka on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:32:51 PM PST

    •  this has been done to Americans (4.00)
      back when lynching went on.  Yeah, didn't make me feel any better, either.

      We are no better, no worse, than any other people in the world.  Maybe Americans will finally drop this "culture of exceptionalism" (don't know who coined it) in the course of doing penance for this.   Maybe the ugly American has finally shocked himself.

      War, torture, slavery, indifference, and corruption.  That's the legacy of the Bush administration.

      Are we still routinely torturing helpless prisoners, and if so, does it feel right that we as American citizens are not outraged by the practice? -Al Gore

      by soyinkafan on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:41:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Disgusting. *nt* (none)

    More dangerous are the functionaries ready to believe and to act without asking questions.

    by Titian on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:33:41 PM PST

  •  The one that gets me outraged... (4.00)
    The hooded guy carrying the MRE box is very possibly the one they called "Gilligan," whose name is Abdou Faleh and this picture seems to show him in front of the wall of wires he was later hooked up to in the iconic photo we all know - the one that looks like a guy in an improvised blanket/ poncho being crucified atop a box.  

    No one has confirmed this for me, but it would seem obvious that he got the nickname from his long sleeved red polo or rugby shirt - like the one the actor Bob Denver wore on the TV show "Gilligan's Island" seen in many other pictures being beaten and dog-piled as he was initiated into the "hard side" - ie, before his clothing was taken away.  Sadly, the torture he was subjected to has a name, according to military lore.  It is called "the Vietnam."  The men and women who tortured him probably called it "Gilligan's Island."

    According to this month's HARPERS magazine,

    This man was suspected of having info about who killed four US soldiers.  After a week the CID decided he didn't know anything, but he remained at Abu Ghraib.  

    and this, also from Harper's (sorry no url, go buy it)

    As he was being turned over to the MPs, Frederick testified that an Agent Romero of the Army's Criminal Investigative Division told him, "I don't give a fuck what you do, just don't kill him.  I need him to talk tomorrow."  

    And to me that is what gets me so sickened.  The details of other photos have their own sordid tales, but this one seems so premeditated - the open suggestion to "soften him up" from the interrogator, and the detail of being made to carry the box himself... like making someone dig their own grave before an execution.  

    •  "suggestion to 'soften him up'" (4.00)
      I read some of the ACLU FOIA docs last spring. They were records of interrogations of privates at an FOB in Iraq around New Years 2004. The incident derived from trophy photos of a simulated (?) sodomy by broomstick of a prisoner, taken on Christmas day out of boredom. The important point for me was the matter-of-fact descriptions of 'softening up' of detainees that was SOP. Included in the file were copies of the official SOP instructions posted at the base which, of course, were about cleanliness, care and feeding of detainees, Geneva Conventions, yada. However, the privates told the interrogaters that Military Intelligence and/or contract interrogators told them to soften up all detainees, assembly-line style, prior to interrogation by chaining them, sleep-depriving, food-depriving, etc. This was all word-of-mouth. The written instructions were ignored.


      Everyone is a potential torturer
      Gaia Vince, NewScientist, 25 November 2004
      Robbins believes the general US prejudice against other nations is deeply ingrained. "Calling Iraqi nationals 'insurgents', 'ragheads' or 'baddies' automatically dehumanises them and leads to a climate of disrespect," he says.

      But, as the researchers note, there are always those few individuals who dissent from the group - "whistle-blowers" who alert authorities to abuse and prevent it continuing.

      "People who opt out often have a strong sense of moral values or religious conviction that allows them to override their natural inclination to follow their superiors or fit in with their peer group," Robbins says. But they are few, and because under certain circumstances almost anyone can commit torture, situations that could foster an atmosphere of abuse must be controlled, he believes.

      The implication that people with a strong sense of moral values or religious conviction in the U.S. military are rare?


      Torture as pornography
      Joanna Bourke, The Guardian, May 7, 2004
      The sexual nature of these acts shows that the torturers realise the centrality of sexuality for their victims' identity. The perpetrators in these photographs aim to destroy their victim's sense of self by inflicting and recording extreme sexual humiliation. As in Jean Améry's description of being tortured by the Nazis, sexual violation is so devastating not because of the physical agony suffered so much as by the realisation that the other people present are impervious to the victim. Torture destroys "trust in the world . . . Whoever has succumbed to torture can no longer feel at home in the world."

      The Psychology of Torture by Dr. Sam Vaknin
      Many offenders derive pleasure and satisfaction from sadistic acts of humiliation. To these, inflicting pain is fun. They lack empathy and so their victim's agonized reactions are merely cause for much hilarity.

      Moreover, sadism is rooted in deviant sexuality. The torture inflicted by sadists is bound to involve perverted sex (rape, homosexual rape, voyeurism, exhibitionism, pedophilia, fetishism, and other paraphilias). Aberrant sex, unlimited power, excruciating pain - these are the intoxicating ingredients of the sadistic variant of torture.

      Still, torture rarely occurs where it does not have the sanction and blessing of the authorities, whether local or national. A permissive environment is sine qua non. The more abnormal the circumstances, the less normative the milieu, the further the scene of the crime is from public scrutiny - the more is egregious torture likely to occur. This is especially true in totalitarian societies where the use of physical force to discipline or eliminate dissent is an acceptable practice.

      The Language of Empire: An Interview with Lila Rajiva
      by  Seth Sandronsky, Dissident Voice, December 17, 2005

      ...torture is a sign of empire. Is that radical? That again is a matter of historical record. All empires and tyrants torture. It grows out of their huge size, their ambition, and their desire to dominate. Because they need to know more and more about their enemies, their friends, the country next door or on the opposite side of the globe. That's what full-spectrum dominance -- the stated goal of American empire -- is about. If there's any available space on planet earth, or in the heavens, or underwater, or underground, or even inside your head, the logic of empire dictates that the corporate-state will want to be there, too. I discuss this in Chapter 7 of the book under the heading of Prometheus. I briefly enunciate the idea that the existence of technologies that can collect extensive, detailed records about everything and everybody dictates that they will use them. First, against foreign enemies or suspects, but inevitably against the population at home. It's happened that way in every empire. And getting into your head is what torture is all about. It's really not simply about physical pain alone.

      ...But the torture scandal cannot be dealt with separately from the impending emergence of a police state.

      Lila Rajiva's Book: The Language of Empire: Abu Ghraib and the American Media
  •  just curious (4.00)
    for those around here who vociferously "support the troops," and for those who keep propagating the idea that the military is somehow a noble calling: exactly how do you square your assertions with this? (or the last batch of Abu Ghraib photos. or the pictures of the iraqi kid with all his limbs blown off. or the child crouched next to the road, screaming, covered in the blood of her parents. or the suffocation of afghan POWs in sealed shipping containers. or the use of white phosphorous in Falluja. or the secret bombing of cambodia. or my lai. or the provision of weapons and "advisors" to the likes of pahlavi in iran, rios-montt in guatemala, samoza in nicaragua, or pinochet in chile. or the support of monsters like jonas savimbi in angola. or hiroshima. or nagasaki. or...)

    can any of you point me to an instance since WWII in which the united states military has had an ultimately positive effect upon the populations of the countries in which it has had its little "involvements"? just curious, as none are coming to mind at the moment.

    "The future will be a struggle between huge competing systems of psychopathology." - J. G. Ballard

    by RabidNation on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:36:56 PM PST

    •  Let's stay clear on who's to blame (none)
      These particular soldiers, and every single officer above them who encouraged them, permitted this policy, and tacitly allowed this to happen - they are to blame.

      Not the military, and not the soldiers at large. It is and remains a noble idea to defend one's country.  It is a tragic shame the way that nobilty can be twisted, both by these soldier's inner weakness of giving into dehumanization and hatred of the helpless, and their superiors' outer exploitation for cynical purposes of scaring the populace at large.

      "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

      by jbeach on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:52:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Look, this is a complex moral issue (4.00)
        But it goes deeper than these specific soldiers.

        The people who sent them to this war NEEDLESSLY are directly to blame for this. Those fucking bastards in the White House do not know or CARE what war does to people. THIS is what war does to people. It does it to Americans, Russians, Chechnyans, French, Algerians... this is what war fucking does.

        And that is why war should barely ever happen.

        Are American soldiers basically noble? I dunno. Perhaps they are as individuals. But what they did in Vietnam, Cambodia, and what they're doing in Iraq is REPREHENSIBLE. THey are at the service of a dark power structure with no moral decency at all. And nothing good can come of it.

        The right is killing America

        by grushka on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:57:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed on the soullessness of those in charge (none)
          And the horrible things that war causes, and makes possible. As shown in Iraq, and Viet Nam and Cambodia before that.

          So I'm totally in agreement with you.

          I'm just disagreeing with a painting of all soldiers as heartless scum. These soldiers bear responsibility for their own actions - but it's not because they're soldiers that they're doing this.

          It's because these soldiers in particular aren't challenging the orders, policies and environment determined by those above them - and those above them don't care.

          "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

          by jbeach on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:08:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  A few bad apples? (none)
        I don't think so.

        'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it'. - GBS

        by stevej on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:03:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not saying a few bad apples. (none)
          This is a policy and environment of dehumanization, humiliation and torture which was set from above, clearly. Or it wouldn't have turned up in different military prisons.

          I'm saying it's unjust to blame all soldiers for these soldiers' horrible actions and choices.

          If anyone is to be blamed, it should be the officers who set this environment, and who are now pretending these are the independent actions of a bunch of crazy loners.

          "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

          by jbeach on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:13:05 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Amen (4.00)
      And remember: My Lai was NOT an aberration. The ENTIRE Vietnam War was a great, big My Lai massacre. America killed 2-3 MILLION Vietnamese civilians during the war.

      Dumped chemical weapons on them. Bombed them from the air. Herded them into "strategic hamlets." Fired at men, women and children in "free fire zones."

      We killed 250-500,000 Cambodians from the air. Making Pol Pot possible (he rose in the ruins of cambodian society).

      Viewed from one prism, the past 60 years have been a nightmare world, delivered by the United States.

      Americans whine about 9/11?! Do they KNOW what the CIA trained contras to do in Nicaragua? How about gut pregnant women in front of villagers, ripping out their fetuses.

      Not an exagerration.

      I guess I'm insane, according to David Brooks, who labelled DailyKos the loony left. Sanity, of course, being not giving a shit about mutilating and murdering poor people across the globe, keeping my mouth shut, upgrading my house and salivating over a new SUV.


      The right is killing America

      by grushka on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:53:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Let's get one thing straight... (4.00)
      There are plenty of servicemen and women who are on missions to actually help others in need.

      You cannot lump all soldiers together.

    •  Thank you (4.00)
      for stating the obvious.

      I don't "support the troops".  I feel sorry for some of them, the ones who don't live to kill "Hajis," but the truth is, EVERY ONE of those troops has the choice to stay and perpetrate war crimes, or to to AWOL and flee to Canada or Europe or wherever.  I understand many of them are brainwashed, and for that they have my sympathy, but NOT my support.

      I do not support wars of aggression.

      I do not support those who wage wars of aggression.

      I do not support those who lead into battle, or those grunts who fight it out in the streets.  They are all soldiers of darkness in my mind.

      This "support the troops" BS is a slippery slope right into the maw of the NAZI war machine.  Did the Germans oppose the war but "support the troops"?  What does that even mean?  

      Now we have assholes like that guy in the photos above, who represent America and all that we stand for in the eyes of the world.  So now it's, we support the troops, EXCEPT for that soldier.  And so the exceptions keep mounting.  At some point, we need to say, no, we do not "support the troops," except for the ones who are forced to be in Iraq.  And even then, those soldiers have the choice of going AWOL.

      That's just how I feel.  You put a gun in my hands, and tell me to go kill a bunch of brown folks who never did me or my country any harm, and I tell you go fuck yourself.  Why the hell should I support those who accept the gun and go out shooting?

      -7.38, -5.90 | "A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

      by Subterranean on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:10:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Kool-aid drinkers (none)
    The most scary thing as that there so many hardcore reich wing people in this country that literally nothing that Bush or Cheney do will shift their suppport. This kind of blind loyalty is a very dangerous element in our society. There is nothing to distinguish the neocon movememen from a cult.
    •  asdf (none)
      In the last year or two Rush Limbaugh put out CLUB GITMO hats and T-shirts and Frisbees. On his website you can see photos of his fans proudly displaying the items on liberal campuses or lefty hangouta.

      The Right will cheer on torturers in order to "get even" with the Left.

      A gin and orange, a lemon squash and a Scotch and water, PLEASE! -6.75, -4.36

      by zkg on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:26:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    Those who torture or support the act are sinners against humanity and shal burn in hell.
  •  I just don't know what to do! (4.00)
    This is so disgusting that words just can't express the outrage I feel.  Our government ARE the terrorists and these pictures, once again, prove it.  Maybe all of us should protest this tomorrow by flying our American flags upside down.  We truly are a nation in distress!!

    Just when you thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...

    by reflectionsv37 on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:42:09 PM PST

  •  I don't know which is more sickening... (4.00)
    ...these photos or the fact that a sizeable percentage of our population is going to be ok with them and even defend them.

    (Also, I don't even want to know what is coming out of that guy's mouth, but if it's what I'm afraid it is, then that one is the most disturbing to me.)

    (-7.75, -6.05).   Life is like this analogy...

    by shock on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:43:02 PM PST

  •  "yo, cheney fucking shot someone. " (none)
    "Release dental_extraction.jpg and pointblank_paintball_ass.jpg STAT!"

    collaborative activism: codeLeft

    by ignu on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:47:32 PM PST

  •  Are those cigarette burns (none)
    on that guy's back?
  •  Interesting Timing (none)
    which have been until now supressed by the Bush Administration.

    What could they be trying to distract us from?  Oh that's right, the VP just shot a 78 year old man.  Sick sick sick.

    More dangerous are the functionaries ready to believe and to act without asking questions.

    by Titian on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:53:32 PM PST

  •  Are there new people implicated by these photos? (none)
    Or are these some of the familiar suspects, that supposedly have already all been dealt with?

    "Think. It ain't illegal yet." - George Clinton

    by jbeach on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 05:56:25 PM PST

    •  IMHO - these are "semi-new" pics (4.00)
      opinion/ speculation:

      These 15 are part of a very tight group of pictures that came in the main from Grainer's camera and his laptop.   His was not the only camera, but it does appear that these probably come from the same CD that Taguba had, congressmen saw, etc - the one turned in by Darby.  But if this Syndney news producer has only 60 new pictures it may not yet be the whole set of pictures.  Certainly not the video, yet.

      My two cents, The one that "doesn't fit" is the dog handler one since it clearly shows other "persons in authority" doing things wrong besides Frederick, Granger, Lynndie England et al.  This is NOT the night shift crowd.  And it closely matches pics Sy Hersh ran with his trio of NEW YORKER articles.  This menacing with dogs stuff is of course a tactic deliberately ordered by Miller, imported from GITMO and didn't fit in with the marrative played over and over in the courts-martial.  

      Lots to speculate about - but folks, lots of this info is already "out there" - but has NOT been assembled in a non-partisan manner.  Few have the stomach to iron out the details already released to the public.  I know I tune out after a while myself.  It's sickening to look at some of the group shots and wonder how many CIA and contractors RIGHT THERE in the pics are walking around free, much less people up the chain of command.

      What we know thus far is that Grainer had some pics, passed some of them around, Darby turned some in,  Taguba got them, CBS got some, Sy Hersh got some and those are all we have seen thus far - CBS's and Hersh's.  Some were shown to congress, some were seen in the courts-martial that we have NOT seen.  

      My question, who was the source for these 60 pictures?  

  •  Disgusted beyond words n/t (none)
  •  Hell isn't hot enough (4.00)
    For the scum who did this.

    Freedom is the center of this country. All else must serve it and defend lest all rights fall to fear.

    by RElland on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:01:30 PM PST

  •  What new will this bring to light? (none)
    I just don't see any benefit only trouble.
    •  they HAVE to be released (4.00)
      This is evidence of war crimes, pure and simple.

      And if we start suppressing evidence of war crimes because our poor tummies might not be able to take it, well, then we're really screwed.

      These pictures and videos NEED to be seen.

      Sadly, I fear the "hearts and minds" will never be won.

      Time to declare victory, come home and start the tribunals.

      •  I agree they should be released (none)
        But no new information is being given other then the photos and no new investigation will be conducted.  Its really just one more brick in the wall of a much larger issue, state sponsored torture.

        They should have all been released in the begining, but now they are just an appendix to an old story.

    •  Most people (4.00)
      need to see pictures to believe that it ever happened. That's why the pictures must come out.
    •  Think about the message (4.00)
      your opinion sends: the worse the torture, the more need to supress the evidence.  That's really dangerous, as it ensures that the worst abuses will never see the light of day because of worries about the fallout.

      We need to expose the torture policy for what it is so that we can shut this shit down.  Sunlight is the best disinfectant in this case.

  •  In the 10th picture down (none)
    Some dumbass soldier wrote on the thigh of the man on the ground. The brainiac wrote "I am a rapeist" The stupid fuck didn't even know how to spell rapist. Not only has the military been accepting some subhuman assholes but they let illiterate assholes in the military as well. No wonder we are in the place that we are.
    •  FWIW (none)
      It was a female MP who wrote the "Rapeist" (sic) comment on the man's buttock.  It was said the prisoner had participated in the gang rape of a young male detainee.  As for the writer's spelling, her resume commonly lists her as a "former pizza place assitant manager."  In Lorton, Virginia.  So yes, education and social staus may be a factor here.  But keep digging. It's an onion's worth or horror and irony and sadness.  With plenty of guilt to go around.  

      The issue of sex, and sexual politics is central to understanding this horror.  I can't begin to parse it all here but take this in mind as you look on these pictures and wonder, "how could this happen?"

      The soldier, Sabrina Harmon had written in an email to a friend, possibly her female lover three days before the "charged activity" that she was disturbed by what she was seeing - the clearly A-OK with Military Intel torture -  like stress positions and poking people's privates with a nightstick, the dogs, the nakedness, the "fear-up" insanity.  So she decided to take more pictures....  to document what was happening.  Sad, predictable and yet somehow we have her to thank at least in part that ANY of this ever came to light. These "bad apples" have to live with what they did.  Some compassion for all involved might be the best solution.    But I won't be holding my breath until we see that.  

      Remember most of all Bushco and Rumsfeld's response to all this was, in the main to stonewall and hide the crimes until public pressure (ie, photos made public) forced them to...  stomewall and hide the crimes as best he could, while spinning like a top to convince us it wasn't policy.  

  •  Cheney is a poacher and torturer (none)
    Bush and Co. should be tried and convicted of crimes against humanity.  I'd love to see some public humiliation for them.  I spit on them and their actions.  
  •  And you thought the reaction to the cartoons... (none)
    ...was bad!
  •  As a former soldier... (4.00)
    ...what shocks me to my very core is what sort of a leader would dare turn the young men and women who serve in uniform into instruments to be used for this?  What kind of a monster fashions this out of the brave people who volunteer to place their lives and souls in the balance out of service to our society?

    To any apologists for the administration who might be lurking and reading this, I want to say this to you: maybe you don't care about the people being tortured and killed in these photos.  Maybe you think it is all worth it to bring democracy and to prevent another 9/11.  But is it worth turning our young men and women into people who could do this?

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:23:50 PM PST

  •  RAPEIST???? What does this mean? (none)
    Do you see the scrawl on the man's leg.  The fucking troglodytes can't even spell.  
  •  Horrible, horrible behavior (none)
    I'm ashamed of my government. Americans should be aware what is done in their name.  


  •  We Are a Nazi Nation of War Criminals (4.00)

    We should be ashamed that we have not risen up and driven out all who have ordered, approved, or condoned this.

    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." GHWB

    by proudtinfoilhat on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:39:24 PM PST

  •  Why were they writing on them? (none)
    The picture with the bottom half of a man at the bottom of the picture looks like it says 'I'm a rapeist'.  Horrible.

    "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

    by sgilman on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:43:30 PM PST

  •  Oh God... (none)
    How can I still be shocked?  We know the stories, we know it's happening, and still I feel punched in the gut.

    In the 11th picture with the bloody door....I can't drag my eyes away from the blanket.  The exact same blanket, avaialble widely in every open air market in Kathmandu, sits on my kitchen floor as a bed for my doggie.  I see it 47 times a day.  I can't bear to see it again.  Shit.  The blanket made me cry - why is that?  Is it that it brings the horror of this into the normality of my daily life?  How will we ever, EVER, get past this as a nation?

  •  Is this oil-for-food quid pro quo? (none)
    Is this release timed in any way to coincide with Iraq breaking a contract with Australia for Wheat? It will cost them billions of dollars. Question is, will the US make up for the Austrailian's loss?

    Anyone know the circumstances behind this sudden release of the new photos?

    Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann

    by Kayakbiker on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:51:39 PM PST

    •  No, it's government nose-tweaking (none)
      The TV channel hosting Dateline is SBS, the Special Broadcasting Service. This is Australia's Multicultural channel which is 90% government funded, and currently trending anti-government (yes, that can happen). It's the smallest channel in Australia and broadcasts a large amount of foreign content. In fact they have a digital channnel that is nothing but news shows from around the world in their native language.

      There is one other government funded channel, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation  which is currently in negotiations for a new board and fighting accusations of anti-government bias already. The remaining 3 commercial channels are always very cautious of anything that disturbs the status quo or which could lead to fines or license issues.

      I strongly doubt that this is in any way to help out the current Canberra conservative party, instead it's more likely to be that any station in Australia got their hands on these, only SBS could get away with airing them due to looser broadcasting restrictions and slightly more freedom from political interferance.

      I personally doubt that it will air this evening in any case, John Howard has too much to lose to upset relations with America at this time. 6 hours till we find out if I'm right or not.

  •  You want to know why our country is doing this? (3.00)
    Go here: The Watchman Report

    We are in National Socialist America right now, the American version of Germany in the 30s.  People need to wake up to that fact.  Our president is above the law, and our lawmakers have betrayed us and are allied with the money interests that want the president above the law.  Both sides, Republicans and Democrats, are part of the same corrupt system.  The Republicans have gotten caught recently because they have more of the spotlight on them with the majority in both houses, but the Democrats are just as bad, only weaker.  They have been bought out as well.  It doesn't start nor end with Bush, all of DC is corrupt and rotten, and the Dems have gone along with the Republicans in using fear to strip away people's personal liberties.  We are in a Nazi state right now, with "terrorists" and "Islamo-fascism" taking on the same role as "communists" and "Jews" did in Hitler's rise to power in the late 20s and early 30s.

    If your heart is troubled with the moral and spiritual decline and hijacking of America, check out the page

    by PubPolSanford on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 06:52:44 PM PST

    •  A troll is a troll.... (none)
      Your site is right in the mainstream of Christian eschatology. I also think you're attempting to provoke people. I think you belong more in a Pat Robertson-oriented site than this one. Sorry, we don't need you to tell us what we already know - that we live in a one-party dictatorship with Fascist leanings.

      I won't attack your right to say what you want, but go away, troll.

      I've got 5000 rollover minutes and I intend to spend 'em!

      by rgrace on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:17:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  New pictures about old news? (4.00)
    There's been the argument that these pictures really don't offer anything that hasn't already been acknowledged.

    That's not true. These pictures need to be seen. Far and wide.

    It turns out (surprise!) that a great many people still seem to think that the worst that's been happening is that Korans have been flushed down toilets along with the odd gut punch. I can't count how many times I've heard that.

    I personally don't buy that the people who make these kinds of feeble defenses to this monstrosity actually believe the words coming out of their mouths. But still, they toss 'em out effortlessly.

    These pictures forcibly give the lie to this.

    These pictures leave not one iota of doubt.

    And the defenders are left without any defense. The safety blanket that is "Oh come on, it's not a big deal" is swiftly yanked for good.

    Once the imagery and the reality and the horror of torture is soundly imprinted upon everyone's brain, no defense is possible.

    Because we've now actually seen it. It's no longer something abstract.

    That's important, because when that happens, it gives greater meaning to the nefarious bullshit such as Bush signing Mcain's torture bill while claiming he doesn't need to actually, you know, abide by it.

    Cause and effect:

    A once abstract thing (Bush behaving like a dictator by claiming that he doesn't have to abide by the laws he signs) becomes very real in the form of blood and shit and puke and pain and disgusting human misery.

    Making this real to people... makes Bush's role in it real.

  •  this is fucking disgusting (4.00)
    let's not forget people what Rumsfeld wrote on a memo about this type of behavior...

    "Make sure this happens"

  •  I'm fuckin' ashamed.... (none)
    and enraged that these people doing these acts in those photos call themselves Americans. This is not American behavior. This is Satanic. How dare Bush and Cheney attempt to keep the truth from us. They MUST be held accountable. These people are creating terrorists and feeding terrorism. They are undermining our position and our safety in the world. These people are traitors. How can anyone in the country call themselves Christian and blindly sanction things like this?

    And what is going on in the secret prison network?

    We as Americans will never live this down. We used to be better than this. A staggering giant blinded by the glare of our propaganda.

    Nothing short of an impeachment of the entire Administration would help to solve this problem.

    I've got 5000 rollover minutes and I intend to spend 'em!

    by rgrace on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:08:31 PM PST

    •  hmm.... (4.00)
      This is not American behavior

      ...not quite.  It's a subset of American behavior.  Plenty of Blacks, Mexicans and Native Americans in American history got the business end of this type of sadistic behavior.  It's just now we made the rest of the world our new Nigger, Wetback, Redskin, <insert derogatory racist classification here> because the rich white elite can't kick around the minorities here with impunity like they used to.  

      What suprises me is that people are suprised that this could happen.  Our history books are full of examples.

      so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

      by MetaProphet on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:56:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If HELL exists... (none)
    then the bastards who engaged in these sickening acts will get a nasty little KARMA bomb when they get there.  All those acts of torture will be inflicted upon them over and over again until they come to terms with what they've done.

    Thank you John Kerry

    by diplomatic on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:09:03 PM PST

  •  No news to America's media (none)
    This story does not appear on the front page of . . . CNN, NY Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, the BBC, the Boston Globe . . . well, you get the picture.

    I checked them all and they do not even mention the existance of new photos or the fact that they are being broadcast.

    The MSM must make sure the 37% of Americans who love George Bush continue to do so.  

    Tomorrow morning, in the minds of America, these photos will not exist, could not exist, will never exist.  This never happened.

    •  We need to keep forwarding this then (none)
      We need to clog the routers on the Internet backbone with this stuff. We can't let this die. We have to force these mainstream media fuckers to deal with it. They have abdicated their responsibilities too. Where is the hope if not with us? Nowhere else that I can see.

      I've got 5000 rollover minutes and I intend to spend 'em!

      by rgrace on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:17:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Unfortunately, (none)
    more SOP from the administration. Damaging news? VP blowing people away while drunk? Passing truly heinous legislation? Need to change the news cycle? Run out of Missing White Girls™?
    Have we got a strategy for you.
    Just dust off an old scandal, preferably one that's already hit its outrage fatigue threshold, or at least doesn't have far to go. Toss it out at the end of the day. Make it seem like it should be important. Now, mind you, don't go too far. Don't release anything really damaging, just more of what people have already seen. Well, a little more graphic maybe. None of the "worst of the worst" though.

    Sorry to seem cynical, but I really see this as more CYA. They see this as less damaging than something else that would top the charts if this known hitmaker wasn't conveniently leaked. It won't hurt them a whit with The Base™. The Base™ will yell at everybody else to "STFU, we've seen this before, old news, people are in jail for this", etc.

    This shit is awful. Deplorable, but we knew it was out there. I don't imagine these are anywhere near the worst stuff that's on film. Remember the rape videos? Screaming kids? This batch really does look to me to be orchestrated by those in power. They are still battling the ACLU to not release the rest of this stuff. These wouldn't have leaked if they didn't want them to. The really bad stuff would have.
    I don't think that the 1/4th of the photos up on the site are the most disturbing the station has, but I'd guess they're representative.

    I've felt for some time now that the civilian leadership in the Pentagon should be thrown in GTMO themselves for so many reasons. I'm not saying this shouldn't be howled at brought to the fore. I'm just saying I find the timing and depth suspect.

    Me? I'm going to be looking on page 23 to see what new really-fucked-up-thing has just been foisted upon us, unseen and unknown.

    Stop telling God what to do with his dice. -Niels Bohr

    by justme on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:12:56 PM PST

    •  Probably true, but.... (none)
      as you know from the Muslim riots against an innocuous cartoon, images have a lot of power. The "nothing to see here, folks, no news here, move on" meme is unacceptable now. Our fuckin' COUNTRY is in danger, man! If people need to be grabbed by the fuckin lapels and have their faces shoved in it.... than so be it....

      I've got 5000 rollover minutes and I intend to spend 'em!

      by rgrace on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:20:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lyndie England... (none)
    won't your kid be proud of poppa!

    "We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane." K. Vonnegut

    by wardeo on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 07:24:41 PM PST

  •  Now you know what a fraternity prank is like (none)

    the 'boys' of Kappa Gamma Mengele.

  •  Update from SBS (4.00)

    15.2.2006. 13:48:06
    Graphic new photographs have emerged of prisoners being abused by US soldiers inside Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, which apparently reveal a greater extent of mistreatment in the 2003 prisoner abuse scandal.

    The images, which will be shown on SBS's Dateline program on Wednesday night, were taken at the same time as the infamous photographs of US soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners inside Abu Ghraib, which sparked international outrage after they were leaked in 2004.

    While some of the photographs are similar to the images made public two years ago, the latest photographs reveal further abuse including new incidents of killing, torture and sexual humiliation, the program's producers say.

    Dateline says the photos are the subject of a legal battle in the United States.

    The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has been granted access to the photographs under Freedom of Information provisions, but the US government is currently appealing the decision.

    Executive producer Mike Carey says Dateline obtained a file of hundreds of pictures, some that have been seen before and others that show new abuses.

    Some photos feature prisoners in sexually humiliating acts that are deemed too graphic to be shown on the program, he said.

    Video footage apparently shows one prisoner abusing himself by bashing his own head against a wall, while other photographs appear to show corpses.

    Mr Carey says he assumes other journalists might also have seen the photographs but does not know why they have not been released yet.

  •  This is why all the pictures and videos should be (none)
    released now, all at once.

    Having pictures trickle out a few at a time over months and years is just going to fan the flames of angry Muslims.  Lets just get it over with and get them all out in the open sooner rather than later.

  •  Disgusting. (none)
    These images really make me ashamed to be American.
    •  It makes me angry. . (4.00)
      To me, this has nothing to do with being an American and everything to do with thugs being in positions of power.  There is absolutely no excuse for these criminal acts, and, if anyone deserves capital punishment, the shits that performed these acts (and their masters) deserve it.
  •  this regime is (4.00)
    dangerous evil, and these inhuman acts are being done in our name.  We will all pay for this.  We have some sick sick bastards ruining this country.  How much more, before the people act? and will we confront this regime?
  •  And we wonder (4.00)
    why they hate us
    why they are willing to commit suicide to pay us back.
    Why their children would throw stones at us in the absence of anything more potent.
    why their women would want to strap on explosives and seek revenge.

    we wonder.....
    sitting in our comfy Lazy-Boy in front of our DLP watching the latest unrealistic "Reality Show" or the latest celebrity gossip.... while the "FREE" Press keeps these (and similarly odious) pictures and stories away from us, protecting our very delicate sensitivity, we blissfully forget that elsewhere in the other part of the world, stories and pictures like these are what they see (on their TV, in their mosques, churches, marketplace, wherever) daily.

    We wonder....
    why they can't just listen to our "we don't condone torture" platitudes and just behave like the docile imbeciles we think they are and just go to their mosques and worship our almighty dollars.

    We wonder......
    why they would want to arm themselves with nuclear power and not just understand our exclusive claim of ownership to such technologies (which, by the way, we can make available to - or use on behalf of - our "friends").

    We wonder....
    why they would not just trust and rely on our immense benevolence and know their place and not ruffle our feathers and just do what we tell them to do and just smile and nod and salute and complement our greatness.

    Having seen these pictures, do we still wonder why they celebrate the Osamas of this world instead of behaving like "normal, modern, intelligent" people like us? Do we stil wonder why they are not buying our "democracy-cures-all" mantras?

    Do we still wonder why they won't (can't) love us or trust us or believe anything we say?

  •  this is sick (none)
    can't think of anything else to say
  •  It looks like (4.00)
    #6 has a victim in the skin of a pig.  That is really disgusting and a horrifying thing to do to that person.  If you look closely, you can see that his head has been put through an opening on the skin.

    Since it's absolutely against Islam to eat pigs, I doubt very few are raised in Iraq.  That pig had to be shipped from the states.

    I'm sickened.

    •  I don't think so (none)
      To me, it looks like a foam sleeping pad with a hole cut in it for the man's head, duct taped around his waist, and fastened tighter at his sides to immobilize his arms. I doubt I need to speculate aloud on the reasons I think they might do that.

      Either way, it's horrible.

  •  Well then, (none)
    my earlier comment might be off track. Maybe. (refering to the update)

    Stop telling God what to do with his dice. -Niels Bohr

    by justme on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:06:39 PM PST

  •  if that one pic (none)
    is a person inside of a pig skin, where did this asshat get a pigskin in iraq????????????? some higher up had to supply it. more cover ups.
  •  Al Jazeera (none)
    and Al Arabiya will by and by have the opportunity to broadcast these to show people what is actually happening.

    There may be a negative reaction.

  •  Monsters!! (4.00)
    There's no other word for what these torturers and their apologists are.

    Impeachment is not enough for Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney. Only a war crimes trial (and conviction) will suffice.

    " this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

    by Valtin on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:13:02 PM PST

  •  Monsters!! (none)
    There's no other word for what these torturers and their apologists are.

    Impeachment is not enough for Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney. Only a war crimes trial (and conviction) will suffice.

    " this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

    by Valtin on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:13:22 PM PST

    •  I apologize the double post n/t (none)

      " this abject posture have ye sworn / To adore the Conquerour?..../ Awake, arise, or be for ever fall'n."

      by Valtin on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:14:06 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Shake it off. (none)
        Last night Chris Dodd introduced an amendment to the Republican permanent taxcut bill. He asked for the elimination of the dividend tax for those making over a million dollars a year. That's a million per. The money would go towards increased Veteran's healthcare benefits. Chafee was the only R to vote against the bill.
  •  i'm willing to bet (none)
    all the money in the world that not one single picture from these gets on the front page of any major newspaper in the country.

    and that anyone who is surprised by that is not at all paying attention.

  •  Vtal Comment (none)
    We react angrily to photographs. No matter what the written word tries to do it cannot get the same response from people.

    These photographs are now "old" events that will be attempted to be dismissed as investigated and rectified.

    Yesterday I published a lengthy diary on the exact nature of the extreme abuse resulting from forcible feeding taking place in Guantanamo Bay Detention camp as we post here.

    RonV followed it up immediately by diary recording the United Nations report condemning this abuse.

    We know from the New York Times that this abuse is going on today

    If you have been deeply disturbed by the photographs in this diary, please include in that anger what we know is happening now at Guantanamo Bay and don't be persuaded in any way at all that abuse has been purged from the way that prisoners are treated, many of them yet to be shown to be guilty of any crime.

    •  Agree.... (none)
      It's all part of a holistic approach by this Administration. Foie Gras torture in Gitmo, secret prisons scattered across the globe, rumblings by Condi that an attack on Iran "will never be taken off the table." Now they have flacks like Ann Coulter softening up the neocon troops to commit violence against those who disagree with them.

      It's almost enough to make one long for the days of Antoninus Pius. (Almost. They didn't have broadband in those days.)

      I've got 5000 rollover minutes and I intend to spend 'em!

      by rgrace on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:25:10 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  ahem. (none)
    fucking hell.  it'll all be over when those videos come out.

    like for sure, right...

    by eriq on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:22:23 PM PST

  •  Well, I'm going to bed (3.00)
    Here's what we're going to hear about this from the freepers (and I know it, because this has been linked on metafilter and i posted it on monkeyfilter):

    "These are no worse that what we've seen already":

    to this I say BULLSHIT. These are worse. And there are worse to come.

    Here's a direct quote off monkeyfilter:

    "War is terrible. If soldiers on any side of any previous war had access to cameras like our soldiers do now, I think that we would find photographic evidence of inappropriate behavior by everyone. That is the nature of war. These actions are bad and should be discouraged. They are hardly the fault of Bush nor do they change the fact that what we were doing was right. If photos were released that showed US soldiers mistreating German or Japanese POWs (which probably exists), I don't think that anyone would be questioning the US involvement in the war."

    Major difference in that Japan attacked us and germany declared war on us.

    These people did NOTHING TO US.

    Remember that. WE ATTACKED THEM.

    •  There's another minor detail.... (none)
      Nothing justifies torture. NOTHING. Saying war is terrible is to change the subject.

      I've got 5000 rollover minutes and I intend to spend 'em!

      by rgrace on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:26:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I stand behind your statement 100%. (none)
        If you want to go the "war is terrible" route of excuses, you might as well not get upset about anything that happens to anyone anywhere because, as we all know, "shit happens".

        If a serial rapist commits several rapes in a certain metropolitan city, the same philosophy would presumably also lead one to ask "What's with all these  articles being printed about the rapist in newspapers and on television? Rapes have been taking place in  cities since the beginning of civilization. Running a city can be a really dirty job and you have to take the bad with the good. "  

        Also: People are getting especially worked up about it now because it is happening in our time - on our punchcard, so to say. Naturally, people get more excited and worked up about things they feel they can actually change as opposed to things already gone down in history.

        Lastly, the statement "That's the way wars are..." is the very reason they should always be the very last resort. In the same sense, one could ask:

        "Should an adult ever break the back of a 5 year old child?"
        Short answer: No, never!
        Q: But what if the boy is wielding a knife?
        A: Try to restrain him/her, see first answer!
        Q: But what if ...
        A: No.
        Q: But what if ...
        A: NO!
        Q: But what if ...
        A: O.k., o.k.! If we assume, as you, that boy has telepathic powers and is about to destroy humanity from his secret base and has no arms and legs by which he could be retrained, etc., etc.  

      •  How right you are! (none)
        If you want to go the "war is terrible" route of excuses, you might as well not get upset about anything that happens to anyone anywhere because, as we all know, "shit happens".

        If a serial rapist commits several rapes in a certain metropolitan city, the same philosophy would presumably also lead one to ask "What's with all these  articles being printed about the rapist in newspapers and on television? Rapes have been taking place in  cities since the beginning of civilization. Running a city can be a really dirty job and you have to take the bad with the good. "  

        Also: People are getting especially worked up about it now because it is happening in our time - on our punchcard, so to say. Naturally, people get more excited and worked up about things they feel they can actually change as opposed to things already gone down in history.

        Lastly, the statement "That's the way wars are..." is the very reason they should always be the very last resort. In the same sense, one could ask:

        "Should an adult ever break the back of a 5 year old child?"
        Short answer: No, never!
        Q: But what if the boy is wielding a knife?
        A: Try to restrain him/her, see first answer!
        Q: But what if ...
        A: No.
        Q: But what if ...
        A: NO!
        Q: But what if ...
        A: O.k., o.k.! If we assume, as you, that boy has telepathic powers and is about to destroy humanity from his secret base and has no arms and legs by which he could be retrained, etc., etc.

  •  Like the sick stuff I saw (none)
    In Col. Kurtz's jungle hideaway in the film Apocalypse Now.
  •  Your Tax Dollars At Work (4.00)
    just a little more raunchy than usual, eh?

    I dunno; those 650 bodies at El Mozote, El Salvador, were pretty stinky, too.

    Not to mention the 50,000 dead Mayans around Rio Negro, Guatemala.

    Oh well, ya takes yer pick.  Hey, life ain't fair, right?  Hah!  Boys will be boys, won't they?

    And God-fearing, loyal American taxpayers -- you? -- will swear their fealty to The Empire by forever paying for whatever circus slaughters the Emperor daily dreams up, in his drunken stupors...

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:29:46 PM PST

  •  Civil rights are one thing. (4.00)
    Human rights are something else entirely.

    I am upset at the Dems for not being forceful about wiretapping. I am LIVID that they are silent about torture. Spineless fuckers.

    Russ Feingold for President!

    by Basil on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 08:33:11 PM PST

  •  Mauthausen (none)
    Well, I grew up in Linz, next to Mauthausen, where we have a KZ. Those naked bodies are way too reminiscent of the pictures that I have seen at this KZ.
    •  Right! History isn't repeating itself... (none)
      if it's 'Murikans doin' the repeatin'...

      If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

      by HenryDavid on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 09:46:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  The members of the armed forces who perpetrated (none)
    these actions should be charged with war crimes.


    There is no excuse for this.

  •  Geez (none)
    Holy Christ, is he pulling that guys teeth out in that one picture?
  •  Time for Hunter S. Thompson quote (4.00)
     "We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world - bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully.  We are whores for power and oil with hate and fear in our hearts."

    - Hunter S. Thompson


    -7.38, -5.90 | "A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

    by Subterranean on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:21:32 PM PST

  •  Rapeist? (4.00)
    I noticed that one of the U.S. soldiers wrote, "I AM A RAPEIST" on the thigh of one of the captives.

    First of all, this is prime evidence that the person who wrote this is nothing but a hair-brained, mentally deficient half-wit that can't spell.

    I support our soldiers in this war; one of my siblings spent a year in Iraq.

    However, I have nothing but contempt and utter disdain for soldiers who participate in such despicable acts.  I hope these guys come home and suffer endless nightmares... that's the least punishment they deserve.

    (my guess is that the imbecile soldier in these photos supports, "Dubya!"  A classic example of the abusive relationship so commonly seen between the fighting class and the elite that sent them.  Clueless idiots.)

  •  Is that all? (1.25)
    There were supposed to be baby rapes and stuff like that.  So they are naked.  So they have been bloodied.  They are suspected terrorists in the middle of a war.  Well, close enough, anyhow.  I was really hoping to see something that crosses the line.  But I don't think this is it.  I think the original big batch from some time back that caused all the outrage were far more disgusting than these.
    •  yeah, (none)
      i wonder whatever happened to the really extreme photos that were supposed to be out there.

      so you think I'm a troll? Well kiss my hairy troll nalgas then

      by MetaProphet on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:45:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hoping? (none)
      So you were hoping to see something that crossed the line?  So these aren't disgusting enough for you?  Maybe you can email some people still in the unit and make some requests.  (After all, posting gory pictures to porn sites looks to be big business...)

      You are sick.

      And I don't give a shit what they were suspected of.  They may be "suspected" terrorists, but thanks to these photos, we are proven war criminals.  (I'm using these terms "we" and "proven" loosely, but no more loosely than your using the words "they", "terrorists" and "war".)  

      BTW, if you were trying to be snarky or parody a freeper, then it wasn't obvious enough.

      (-7.75, -6.05).   Life is like this analogy...

      by shock on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:32:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hoping! (none)
        And I don't give a shit what they were suspected of.

        So there are some pictures of people with blood on them.  You could find even bloodier scenes on the battlefield, where both sides are shooting at and killing each other.  Pictures of people with blood on them is pretty irrelevent in the middle of a fucking war (and I'm talking about the fighting in Iraq, not the so-called "War On Terrorism").  Oooh, too bad, the terrorist got a boo-boo when he got shot.  Why don't you go kiss it and make it better?

        What I was hoping for was clear evidence of serious mistreatment.  But I really don't see anything new here.  I don't see clear evidence of "war crimes."  I think the first batch of Abu Graib photos were far more damaging.  Some people here obviously disagree and feel the need to start name-calling.  But in any case, hopefully at some point the really damaging photos and video will be released.

    •  Well (none)
      I see the freepers have waded into our space.

      Not enough for you?  There are corpses there.  what exactly was your sick mind looking for?  And trust me, there will be more tomorrow for your sick head.

      What is enough for you?  You wanted to see babies raped?  You're pretty ILL.  

      NOT that it hasn't happened.  

      Nonetheless, this seems, these 15 photos don't phase your reality matrix.  IE, it's ACCEPTABLE to you.  What kind of a sick monster are you?  Why is it acceptable that people are forced to be naked, attacked by dogs, terrorized, and humiliated?  Why is it acceptable that people have been raped, and tortured in our name?

      That you aren't shocked says one of two possibilities.  That like many of us nothing surprises you anymore and you just react with a form of apathy because your level of shock has been too anesthetized by the constant barage of hell that this administration has indulged in. (ie, apathy and ennui)

      Or you somehow don't HAVE a heart for the suffering of fellow human beings that is being done in your name.

      I truly hope it is the former, for your sake.

      Either way you are in bad shape, you SHOULD be outraged.

      •  Well well (none)
        I see the freepers have waded into our space.

        You wanted to see babies raped?  You're pretty ILL.

        Blow it out your ass, you piece of shit.  Obviously I meant that I wanted the photos and videos that allegedly showed children being raped in front of their parents to be released, not that I wanted children to be raped in front of their parents.  

        Just because someone sees things differently than you, it doesn't make them a freeper.

  •  Are the Chinese behind the publication? (none)
    When I view the pictures in the Australian site I get a Hong Kong ad.

    Is this why they are published there?

    Because the don't depend on US controled advertising?; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

    by Shockwave on Tue Feb 14, 2006 at 10:49:06 PM PST

    •  SMH (none)
      My guess is that this has to do with Sydney and Hong Kong being in the same region, etc.  The SMH is published by the same company that prints the Sun-Herald, one of Australia's big dailies.

      "We need a war to show 'em that we can do it whenever we say we need a war." -- Fischerspooner

      by bink on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:49:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  "We have become a Nazi monster... (none)
    ... in the eyes of the whole world - bullies and bastards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are whores for power and oil with hate and fear in our hearts."  

    Hunter S Thompson

    Dread, just dread.

    "... in my empire, life is sweet, just ask any bum you meet. You may say that I ain't free but it don't worry me..."

    by lumpenprole on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:02:58 AM PST

  •  but the beginning (none)
    After the horror, the thoughts I had was that, number 1, this will make ALL Americans targets in the eyes of the world: the American tourist in Rome, the American businessman in Hong Kong, ALL Americans abroad will be de facto designated as target for revenge killing.

    For a generation perhaps.

    Our efforts to put an end to these crimes will be judged and found wanting by the world; yes, we talk on the blogs, we donate to Democrats (who barely do anything anyway). Even under Vichy, the French had a Resistance. The broadcast images of the Berkeley riots and Kent State and the Chicago demonstrations helped the world realize that there was a strong, vocal, active body of Americans against the war.

    It is unfair, but copies of posts on Kos and Atrios will not cut it. To the outside world, America is pretty much behind a President it reelected.  Image is everything, as they say.

    Finally, the most fearful thought is that, like Israel but on a much larger scale, we have started a cycle of terror that will ineluctably grind us down, no matter what we do at this stage.

    Kos' headlines about OH or VA seem pretty unimportant when compared to the demons we have unleashed.

  •  UN Torture statement (none)
    They came out with a leaked version of their draft report yesterday.

    "The Commission's experts conclude that:

    • Detainees have been treated poorly, subjected to prolonged solitary confinement and sensory deprivation.

    • Doctors have force-fed hunger-strikers in violation of UN Principles of Medical Ethics and World Medical Association standards.

    • The system of justice is unfair, both in the tribunals used to try the minority of detainees who have been charged and in the access to lawyers.

    "The legal regime applied to these detainees seriously undermines the rule of law and a number of fundamental universally recognised human rights, which are the essence of democratic societies," the report said.

    The UN team calls on the US to revoke all special interrogation techniques authorised by the Defence Department.

    Many of these allegations have been made before, but these are the first from a UN panel. The report is scheduled to be released this week, and the US will then give its formal rebuttal."


    2002 starts holding detainees

    760 detainees since 2002

    500 there at present

    180 released

    76 sent to custody in countries other than US

    10 charged

    35 nationalities

    4 hunger strikes, US says

    ...but not your own facts.

    by slouise217 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:15:04 AM PST

  •  Disgusted (none)

    As a Dutch-Canadian - that's all I can say. I grew up within spitting distance of the US in Vancouver, BC and I spent many a time in Seattle as a youngster. As an adult, I worked in Ft. Lauderdale and travelled the country by train from L.A. I have seen a large part of what I once considered a great country and kin of my own.

    It's sad to say, I will probably never set foot in the United States of America again. Not only in protest of your present government's policy of rendition and torture, but also... I suspect I am on one of your 'lists' for my active research and work with American dissident writer Chris Floyd at Empire Burlesque.

    This will further brew anti-American sentiment around the world - and really, America's military industrial complex needs to plant and harvest new enemies in order to keep a steady cash flow, so I am not surprised that Abu Ghraib has appeared once again.

  •  Revisit Sy Hersh (none)
    Upthread zeke L mentioned:

    it's pretty clear what it's intended to look like.  all in order to circulate back home and humiliate the man.

    Who "intended" it? That's what I want to know. It was a much larger scheme than Graner, London and that small bunch. Per Sy Hersh the staged photos were not intended to be circulated (which would expose abuse to the West) but used as a threat against Iraqi detainees to circulate them back home, photography-as-torture -- just the presence of a camera was enough -- as an "interrogation technique." Most people here know all about Sy Hersh but in case anybody missed his eye-popping New Yorker piece of May 2004 "The Grey Zone", he offers this glimpse into the sadistic thinking behind how the photos came about  (the original ones and these in what appears to be the same series) and why they are so sordid:

    The notion that Arabs are particularly vulnerable to sexual humiliation became a talking point among pro-war Washington conservatives in the months before the March, 2003, invasion of Iraq. One book that was frequently cited was "The Arab Mind," a study of Arab culture and psychology, first published in 1973, by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist who taught at, among other universities, Columbia and Princeton, and who died in 1996. The book includes a twenty-five-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. "The segregation of the sexes, the veiling of the women . . . and all the other minute rules that govern and restrict contact between men and women, have the effect of making sex a prime mental preoccupation in the Arab world," Patai wrote. Homosexual activity, "or any indication of homosexual leanings, as with all other expressions of sexuality, is never given any publicity. These are private affairs and remain in private." The Patai book, an academic told me, was "the bible of the neocons on Arab behavior." In their discussions, he said, two themes emerged--"one, that Arabs only understand force and, two, that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation."

    The government consultant said that there may have been a serious goal, in the beginning, behind the sexual humiliation and the posed photographs. It was thought that some prisoners would do anything--including spying on their associates--to avoid dissemination of the shameful photos to family and friends. The government consultant said, "I was told that the purpose of the photographs was to create an army of informants, people you could insert back in the population." The idea was that they would be motivated by fear of exposure, and gather information about pending insurgency action, the consultant said. If so, it wasn't effective; the insurgency continued to grow.

    When you read Sy's article in May 2004, pay special attention to Stephen Cambone's role in the "intelligence gathering" at Abu Ghraib. He's Rumsfeld's #2, in line of "succession" to become Def Secty if anything happens to Rummy (Cambone's military assistant, Army Lieutenant General William G. Boykin, was the guy who gave a speech at an Oregon church equating the Muslim world with Satan and saying Bush was not elected but appointed by God).

    "It's 1776 all over again" -- J.W.P. (after Yogi Berra, in the spirit of Tom Paine)

    by wardlow on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 03:42:30 AM PST

  •  OMG (none)
    I looked at some, but had to stop.  At the same time, while some are definitely outrageous, others can "simply" be stated they were taken to document injuries, etc, and used to accompany reports of injuries, accidents,etc.

    I still cannot believe that this country as a whole isn't more outraged at the images that WERE released - even prior to these.  They are so disturbing and sadistic.  But it seems most of the American public (as usual) have forgotten exactly what went on at Abu Ghraib due to their (usual) short memory spans!

  •  Sky and BBC TV News, UK (4.00)
    Sky news is showing all the pictures displayed here to the British public.

    The BBC is showing some of them - the most horrific are not being used - but they are showing the video of the prisoner whose head is being slammed repeatedly against the metal prison door.

    Both news services commenting on their lack of availability in the United States, although pointing out that they freely available on internet sites, and the difficulty in which this now places the Bush administration.

    I am sorry that neither broadcaster has made any tie in with the United nations Guantanamo Bay report leaked yesterday. This report has not, I believe, been officially published yet (due in the next day or two?). When it does break, it may make this whole issue more contemporaneous.

    •  Update (none)
      BBC explaining that they are not showing the most distressing pictures but is describing graphically and in detail their content. This is effective in getting across their awful nature.

      They are reporting that the pictures are just now being shown on Arab television.

      Concensus is that these are far worse than those previously released.

      Considerable emphasis being placed on the purpose of their being shown is the attempt by the ACLU and others to obtain senior administration accountability for the events.

  •  media (none)
    Has anyone checked US media coverage? Well, I did a quick check: ABC, CBS, NBC- as of 8:45 AM EST- zip.
     Did a quick check of nyt, wapo, lat sites and--- zip- as of 8:am est.
     And this is a free country.- AND- PIGS DO FLY!
  •  Terror alert, anyone? (none)
    With all the bad news hitting Bu$hCo these days -- and there's an awful lot -- it seems a fitting time for a terra alert to change the subject, no?

    "It is possible to fool all the people all the time -- when the government and press cooperate." -- George Seldes

    by Doofus on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:14:26 AM PST

  •  CNN has a link now... (none)
    MSM is finally starting to catch on...

    there is a link on the cnn main page.

  •  Just saw a live report on CNN about the (none)
    torture pictures. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon reiterated that none except official pictures for documentation purposes are permitted to be taken. They showed three photos (none had blood - they were among the more "tame" of the torture photos). Starr's attitude was grave and she pointed out that the Pentagon has actually tried to suppress the release of the photos. I thought she did a fairly good job, considering that it was a CNN report, except for the fact that she stated the problem and issue here is that unofficial photos were being taken of prisoners being tortured. I would posit that the issue is that prisoners are being tortured and the fact that they're being photographed is secondary, at best. Otherwise, though, I think it was a fair report, and thank god that finally, an American outlet has covered the story, however briefly.
  •  I see the wingnuts (none)
    are referring to the photos as "alleged" and pooh-poohing them as "old news". And of course there are the denunciations of the evil MSM.

    They're so predictable. They just take all the fun out of it.

    If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

    by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 06:43:05 AM PST

  •  Reasoning for war (none)
    Without WMDs, the Bush administration's only real justification is the moral victory of good over evil. America (good) defeat the murderous, rapist thug Saddam (evil).

    But when things like this happen that totally undermine our moral credibility, what then?

    The war had no purpose and has no purpose now.

    "Don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34

    by Jonathan4Dean on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:10:55 AM PST

  •  If that's humane treatment of prisoners... (none)
    I really don't want to know what inhumane treatment would be. Ugh. Makes me sick.

    Proud to live in a Blue State!

    by Sister Havana on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:23:57 AM PST

  •  What is he doing with scissors inside that mouth? (none)
    Whatever it is, this brings back disturbing memories of a scene in the 1970s movie "Marathon Man" involving Dr. Mengele (Sir Lawrence Olivier) and Dustin Hoffman and a drill bit.

    One thing that's never really been satisfactorily explained about all this is why all those involved thought that these torture photos would never be published.  It kinda reminds me of Nixon's White House tapes.  If they all knew their conversations were being recorded, why did Nixon and his goons say such self-incriminating and repulsive things?

    and this has made us safer how exactly??

    and how the fuck did this clamp down the insurgency???

    and is the fucking bullshit logic, "that we no longer torture" the reason the insurgency has gotten worse???


  •  You know (none)
    I am not a Christian, but there are some good philosophies in the bible. One of them is: treat others the way you want to be treated.
    How can we ask anyone to treat American prisoners civilally when we are treating prisoners the way we are?

    Spies, Cries, and Lies: Brought to you by the Republican Party

    by Whitney S on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:46:03 AM PST

    •  We can't (none)
      and that will be a huge problem, IMO.

      Unfortunately, the only people this will affect are more working class people who volunteer for the services.  The elitist's kin will likely never face any kind of retribution from the torture inflicted in our name.

      "Real conservatives are intolerant, warmongering and irresponsible." Chris Bowers

      by WeatherDem on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:06:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  You know (4.00)
    I am not a Christian, but there are some good philosophies in the bible. One of them is: treat others the way you want to be treated.
    How can we ask anyone to treat American prisoners civilally when we are treating prisoners the way we are?

    Spies, Cries, and Lies: Brought to you by the Republican Party

    by Whitney S on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:46:04 AM PST

  •  Saturation coverage of shooting covers lots of sin (none)
    There's this and the revelation last week of Dick's "authorization" to Scooter to reveal classified CIA materials to Judy Miller.

    I kinda get the feeling that Cheney's on his way out the door, and that more indictments are coming soon.

  •  The trouble is... (none)
    ...when I see these foul examples of human cowardice and fear, my first reaction is to imagine the men and women who enabled this illegal war, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, being tortured in the same way.


    I suppose there is evil in the hearts of all men, not just "our" side.

    Would it be more justified though? To torture those who had authorised the bombing and murder of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

    Or "real" terrorists?

    The whole issue is rotten to the core.

    <div style="border:2px;padding:4px;border-style:dotted;"> You want to downsize the government?
    Fuck you. My government defends the American people.<

    by deafmetal on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 07:58:10 AM PST

  •  Question... (none)
    Does anybody know that timeline of these pics?  Were they taken at the same time as the others or are these more recent?
  •  What is this... (none)
    I just really can't tell what's going on in these pictures?  Some of them look like abuse, others could be photos of prisoners who had wounds from fighting, still others look like something out of the Blair Witch Project... all of them look like scenes out of a nightmare.

    There's just not enough context to make out what the hell is going on...

  •  Sad, that's all I can say. (none)
  •  The BBC has some pics that are not posted here (none)

    by Daisy Cutter on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:48:23 AM PST

  •  How much time did (none)
    that guy get?  He's a sadist.
  •  what a sickening irony (none)
    that they would characterize the prisoners as "rapests."

    weather forecast

    The palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise. - Paine

    by Cedwyn on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:43:09 AM PST

  •  These pictures (none)
    are so horrible and disturbing that I feel sick just looking at them.

    They are a graphic example of why the Geneva Convention was made international law. It is extremely shaming to the Bush Admin that they have authorized this treatment of prisoners.

  •  more images, including short video clips (none)
    BBC has a link to a story which includes a few clips of the just-released video, and video montage of more of the just-released stills, a few of which are not yet on this diary.  

    It apears Al Arybia will air some of the stills as well.  I have no link to that yet, sorry.  

    It seems the DATELINE show DID air video of the forced mass- mastrurbation episode, an incident that was the focus of several tirals already.   (Night shift abuse by Graner et al)

    This BBC report-on-the-report merely shows a few seconds of the head banging disturbed man, not the sexual stuff.  It does seem to include a new dog handling "fear up" incident which I had not previously seen, this one on the upper tier of a cellblock, with a mattress stored vertically in the BG.  Has anyone else seen this before?  Seems to be new and is not, since the dog handlers were NOT part of Graner's "frat party antics" taking place on the "bad apples" late shift, but an established, ordered and condoned abuse that came from Geneal Miller.  Less about "abuse" than about "documented war crimes."

    What Graner and co. did was condoned, suggested, encouraged and covered up but what the dog handlers did was ORDERED and it has been shown ON PAPER to be a real war crime, no bones about it.  And no prosecution has taken place.  

  •  I keep wondering about those pictures... (none)
    ALLEGEDLY involving broom handles and those from the jail on the edge of Baghdad International Airport?

    George, won't you please prove to us how effective you torture program is?  Solitary confinement in a cold wet cell is one thing.  This is quite another.

    BushCo Policy... If you aren't outraged, you haven't been paying attention. -3.25 -2.26

    by Habanero on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:24:21 PM PST

  •  CNN vaguely 'covered' the new images.. (none)
    .. with a mess of a story from Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon - conflating the order to the Pentagon demanding the release of the images (as ruled last Sept) with the Government counter suit - I thought I understood where the case is and I couldn't follow it

    Naturally the talking stenogragher dutifully repeated what the Pentagon's position is "Publishing these will cause" blah blah

    While ignoring the 800 pound FACT that causing the images is far worse

    The entire report visually consisted of cycling back and forth between two of the images over and over and over

  •  Flash Video of Documentary (none)
    I have the Australian Frontline Documentary as well as coverage from the BBC and CNN up at Empire Burlesque.It's streaming video in Flash 8.
  •  Tell Me The Reasom Why We Removed Saddam Again (none)
    This Administration is so Corrupt that if they don't like the law they just ignore it and dare the American people to do something about it. Then If there is enough of a outcry then they with the help of the complicit Republican Congress just change the law. The Executive order was never meant to be a means of just having the president writing a law at his wim, like some sort of King, and by passing congress.

    Once again "It's time for them to go"

    It's time to Draft Al Gore in 2008

Serephin, grytpype, Greg Greene, Devin, Thor Heyerdahl, RedDan, Paolo, nitpicker, Alumbrados, paradox, barr, Susan S, buffalo soldier, JR, PLS, IdiotSavant, Jon Meltzer, jillian, pb, mikepridmore, Bill in Portland Maine, AggieDemocrat, Phoenix Woman, Pacific John, mbc, tundraman, Grand Poobah, JoelK in AZ, jmelli, Jackson L Haveck, teacherken, laurak, GOTV, pluffmud, lipris, leif, Delaware Dem, ubikkibu, tiggers thotful spot, ZT155, Erasmus, Pandora, flatiron, lost, eriq, tiponeill, Mullibok, saraswati, colorado thistle, Reino, janinsanfran, psychprof, R Dub, ortcutt, littlesky, Elizabeth D, Hummingbird, Shockwave, Del C, Titian, kerry, Sherri in TX, scaryice, Xan, SanJoseLady, shumard, democat, jennen, DCDemocrat, Hrothgar, loopster, Doofus, rhubarb, dji, Mlle L, FredFred, willyr, the awful truth, Raven Brooks, lostian1, DemDachshund, kdub, figdish, x, Momagainstthedraft, zknower, year90ninezero, RandyMI, ltsply2, bcb, PHDinNYC4Kerry, ortsed, zenbowl, frisco, velvetdays, Spider Jerusalem, dash888, ilona, jnfr, lilorphant, RFK Lives, the OTHER rasmussen, object16, MarkInSanFran, exNYinTX, givmeliberty, Jerome a Paris, Radical Faith, bostonjay, Creosote, davelf2, strengthANDwisdom, memberofthejury, Noah Jenda, Smallbottle, dpc, loudGizmo, upnatom65, jpiterak, dc 20005, LiberalBill04, agoldnyc, km4, mlafleur, MPetrelis, EvieCZ, Xeno of Elia, smintheus, PaintyKat, Hatu, bronte17, jn2375, 88kathy, ashleyGA, Stormwatcher, JDRhoades, ProfessorX, guyute16, Dr Portia, elveta, nyceve, jem6x, SecondComing, sfgb, rhp, whenwego, Billy Shears, Welshman, Loquatrix, snoopydog, YoloMike, stevetat, mhale85, shock, buckeyekarl, PBnJ, Nihilvor, chicagochamp, Scoopster, Patricia Taylor, ZanderOC, AllenB101, cookiebear, vmibran, Kerry Conservative, Transmission, roses, chechecule, michelle, allysonsta, Dhavo, javelina, amberglow, murphsurf, sgilman, freepress4all, dqueue, aruac, dchill, plad0005, bwren, PeteZerria, not lois, Spindizzy, Nate Roberts, thingamabob, Jesterfox, jpadgett, Cedwyn, CocoaLove, sidnora, celticshel, SairaLV, SnyperKitty, agitprops, The Animal, IM, suzq, Braindead, mayan, Jaffa, marais, dejavu, Dube, Barbara Morrill, Moody Loner, Doolittle, rcvanoz, BurnetO, commons3nse, danthrax, Stand Strong, NYC Sophia, Dallasdoc, Subversive, mrkvica, astrodud, baltimoretim, by foot, redrobin, MKS, crkrjx, Republic Not Empire, TXsharon, SeattleLiberal, baxxor, smash, katchen, Bulldawg, venice ca, GN1927, fauxreal, nika7k, drangel, The New Politeness, dnn, rockhound, STOP George, A Ball of Lint, HollywoodOz, i m bushwacked, rlharry, RebeccaG, socal, 313to212, jrm78, inclusiveheart, cevad, walkshills, deep6, seattledoglover, ChiGirl88, seaside, JayBat, Bluefish, Levity, ybruti, strack, Man Eegee, OrangeClouds115, DrReason, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, PAprogressive, HK, bablhous, DrewDown, American in Kathmandu, rickeagle, kd texan, Renaldo Migaldi, avahome, igneous, 35fan, thereisnospoon, Shapeshifter, arachide, BDA in VA, greeseyparrot, kevsterwj, Gowrie Gal, Tirge Caps, rapala, cafepants, jonathan94002, davidincleveland, phasmatis, trueblue illinois, joesig, maybeeso in michigan, tribalecho, Tarindel, BadgerGirl, 3goldens, Harkov311, j sundman, feminatty, djewel, BluejayRN, jdbrooklyn, tzt, blueyedace2, Five of Diamonds, coloradobl, baccaruda, Bodean, wobblie, OpherGopher, irate, topdog08, Ari Mistral, truong son traveler, capioxxii, Valtin, Oberlin JJ, terrypinder, ChemBob, juliesie, Nordic, 5oclockshadow, Maine Atticus, KiaRioGrl79, Ranting Roland, TheMagicJew, Nastja Polisci, Richard Carlucci, reflectionsv37, boofdah, dansk47, AnnArborBlue, Morrigan, majcmb1, Janus, ncnygirl, Pam from Calif, truebeliever, tutone, concerned, Karmafish, sassy texan, jimstaro, singing bridge, uato carabau, John DE, Tumble Weed, annefrank, Phil S 33, JellyPuddin, bmaples, Dan A Lewis, The Bulldog Manifesto, Caleb G, bluescrubs, RickE, JenThinks, Habanero, bayside, el zilcho, hgunited, wardlow, Thursday Next, Domitan, Precedent, Shotput8, nanobubble, Pitin, zinger99, dazed in pa, deacon, LithiumCola, pmob5977, stillrockin, Rogneid, verso recto, Shiborg, Spathiphyllum, Ekaterin, Blakbelt, Alan Arizona, sinewave, soyinkafan, atalanta, salvador dalai llama, Mother Mags, Fruitcake, kishik, AceDeuceLady, xrepub, martini, andreuccio, JosephAZ, Sanuk, oregon blue, Ranchita, methodishca, RabidBadger, kraant, tommymet, PatsBard, Petrasays, Daisy Cutter, BlueInARedState, emeraldmaiden, birdieputt18, Naranjadia, Ptah the Great, G Red, Ellicatt, Yellow Canary, Patrizio, liberalconservative, With Love From The Peoples Republic of Riverwest, fanaa, buhdydharma, fromer, katier, poichick, Esjaydee, Junior Bug, Irishkorean, reid fan, TalkieToaster, jguzman17, global citizen, erratic, curmudgiana, LibChicAZ, dude mcdude, trykindness, myzenthing, Unitary Moonbat, Something the Dog Said, ab imo pectore, ShubTsaddiq, Coffee Geek, Southern Son

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site