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Crossposted from MY LEFT WING    

We have been told repeatedly that the United States is a "Christian nation," founded on "Christian principles."

  We have been told repeatedly that George W. Bush is a "man of faith," a "born-again Christian."

In other words, under orders from a self-styled Christian head of state, the world's most powerful "Christian nation" just started a "massive air assault" on Iraq. DROPPING BOMBS is how I understand that phrase. Apparently it MIGHT not mean that.

The "Christian" head of a "Christian" state has authorised a week of a war consisting of MASSIVE, systematic terrorising, disfigurement, dismemberment and murder of human beings... with bombs.

This week's rationale:" root out insurgents near a town where recent violence raised fears of civil war."

Praise Jesus, the missiles are flying, Hallelujah.

You know how the Fox News types chortle when one of their guests says, "Islam is a religion of peace?"

I wonder how the average Iraqi feels when she hears someone say, "Christianity is a religion of peace."

Someone please explain to me how going to war, shooting families in cars, bombing entire cities, blasting the limbs off of children, and creating an entire generation of war orphans has ANYTHING to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You want to call yourself a Christian? Swell. BEHAVE like a Christian. You want to call yourself "pro-life" and mourn all the unborn children who never had a chance to live? Take a moment to consider all the pregnant women who've been killed in Iraq. Or, say, how about all those children who did have a chance to live... before we bombed them into oblivion.

These are the words of Jesus Christ:

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

"What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul."

"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

"The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."

"Tend to my sheep."

"Blessed are the merciful."

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

"Forgive seventy times seven."

"Blessed are the peacemakers."

"Whatever you have done to little children you have done to me."

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."

Then they came up and laid hands upon Jesus and seized him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by doing so you will heap burning coals upon his head."

Now, I know that many Christians have no use for other religions; these are shortsighted and ignorant people. Christians who truly practice the teachings of Jesus Christ are well aware that many religions preach the same basic precepts:

Let there be no injury and no requital.

-    Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 32

One should choose to be among the persecuted, rather than the persecutors.

-    Judaism. Talmud, Baba Kamma 93a

Victory breeds hatred, for the defeated live in pain. Happily live the peaceful, giving up victory and defeat.

- Buddhism. Dhammapada 201

Chi K'ang-tzu asked Confucius about government, saying, "Suppose I were to slay those who have not the Way in order to help those who have the Way, what would you think of it?" Confucius replied saying, "You are there to rule, not to slay. If you desire what is good, the people will at once be good." - Confucianism. Analects 12.19

Those who beat you with fists,

Do not pay them in the same coin,

But go to their house and kiss their feet.

- Sikhism. Adi Granth, Shalok, Farid, p. 1378

In wars to gain land, the dead fill the plains; in wars to gain cities, the dead fill the cities. This is known as showing the land the way to devour human flesh. Death is too light a punishment for such men who wage war. Hence those skilled in war should suffer the most severe punishments.

-    Confucianism. Mencius IV.A.14

There is nothing I can say or do to make this stop. These are not men of peace, these are not men of Christ or men of faith.

These are warmongers who use the words of faith to pacify the masses while they use bombs and money to secure for themselves more and more of the power they seek.



I wrote this in response to Baculum King, who's spent the better part of the day attempting to clarify for those of us less schooled in military jargon the meaning of the phrase, "massive air assault:"

I do appreciate the "detrailment" of this discussion. I put it in quotes because, ordinarily, I'd designate it as such.

But in the case of this diary, as you've worked very hard to point out, there was a mistake in the original assumption made by the diarist (MOI? Mistake???). It bears correcting.

It also stands to reason that people have got all vituperative and such -- it's a wretched discussion to be having, and while the events described by the reporters this morning may not be what I initially perceived them to be, it doesn't really change much in regard to the grotesque facts just as they are.

I'm sorry it took me so long to understand the difference in terminology, and sorry I can't edit the diary to more accurately reflect the facts without ruining its original message...

I hope this comment will stand as my retraction of any errors; in fact, I'm goign to add it to the end of the text.

Originally posted to My Left Wing on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:23 AM PST.

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  •  Heard about it at the gym (257+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Malacandra, Paolo, wozzle, chautauqua, Lupin, Angie in WA State, sj, Ralph, vicki, Go Vegetarian, pb, SWicklund, elizsan, Dr Van Nostrand, Hiram, matt n nyc, vivacia, SarahLee, alyosha, acquittal, Trendar, gogol, Hornito, lipris, RonV, lrhoke, ubikkibu, espresso, tiggers thotful spot, musing85, pHunbalanced, pq, Powered Grace, msl, its simple IF you ignore the complexity, juls, Shockwave, Bill Melater, Cathy, cotterperson, baracon, rhubarb, dji, terminal3, Momagainstthedraft, HarveyMilk, frisco, caliberal, ilona, lesliet, RFK Lives, Carnacki, Matilda, grndrush, musicsleuth, bumblebums, Foreign Devil, Jerome a Paris, bookbear, Creosote, Sottilde, kissfan, shermanesq, RubDMC, bara, Song Jiang, bronte17, justme, Dazy, riverrun, ashleyGA, sadhu, macdust, mentaldebris, mmacdDE, elveta, sjersey, Euroliberal, nyceve, susakinovember, Baldwiny, maxschell, HippyWitch, cmlorenz, buckeyekarl, Patricia Taylor, JJG Miami Shores, roses, michelle, amberglow, peeder, LondonYank, Fe, res, NonemptySubset, ethans mom, Thaxter, fumie, Glinda, Jesterfox, arkdem, Cedwyn, high uintas, Eddie C, wader, IM, byebyeblinkie, WeatherDem, kharma, menodoc, cathy b, averybird, BurnetO, NYC Sophia, Dallasdoc, by foot, Chamonix, kdrivel, TXsharon, lezlie, hoolia, exiledfromTN, alt hitman, Rico, yet another liberal, katchen, kjo, snakelass, Basil, rockhound, graciella, horsewithnoname, grrr, lcrp, coigue, dcookie, TheJohnny, walkshills, Oaktown Girl, AnonymousArmy, Exurban Mom, Donna in Rome, WisVoter, Wife of Bath, Deward Hastings, Steven D, bablhous, rebirtha, Dawgbro, kd texan, Schwede, boran2, KingPing, GeegeeMI, bibble, califdweller, Sassy, Ed J, greeseyparrot, cohe, TexH, ch kes, MichDeb, leolabeth, joanneleon, maybeeso in michigan, bloomer 101, historys mysteries, Mozh, bellevie, Rick Oliver, deepfish, asskicking annie, Chinton, irate, wizardkitten, clammyc, Simplify, crimsonscare, Valtin, Ajax the Greater, Ranting Roland, YucatanMan, billybush, billelliottjr, curtadams, Crowdog, Pam from Calif, concerned, Karmafish, Enjoy Every Sandwich, sassy texan, GreyHawk, Kayakbiker, sofia, Overseas, QuickSilver, Phil S 33, Joy Busey, Digginthislife, Thursday Next, Floja Roja, sodalis, Jlukes, sbdenmon, Jillian M, Team Slacker, bluestateonian, Spathiphyllum, JanL, Brubs, soyinkafan, grayscale, RiaD, geminiartist71, Cletus from Canuckistan, taracar, Aunt Arctic, occams hatchet, trashablanca, PoppyRocks, socialist butterfly, highfive, VoicelessInDC, Mahanoy, stonemason, Ellicatt, Yellow Canary, chemsmith, CommiePinkoScum, darthstar, Albatross, sailmaker, blueoasis, SherriG, free speach 07, Lashe, nilocjin, Joe F, Anfractuosity, imabluemerkin, mrcoder, NearlyNormal, BalkanID, Wbythebay, David T Harris for US Congress TX 06, Andy30tx, Josh or Con or Both, monsterrules, fiddlingnero, Dreaming of Better Days, The Alien from Britain, Crossing Washington, chgobob, pissedpatriot, Torquemadog, Daily Prose

    Started crying on the treadmill.

    When you hear the words "massive air strike," what comes to mind?

    Me, I think about screaming, terrified children with arms ripped off by flying, flaming metal.

    I think about pain.

    I DON'T think about SHOCK and fucking AWE.

  •  Good Lord! (6+ / 0-)

    Why don't the news and the Newspapers let the American public know what is going on.  This makes me sick.  No wonder our country is hated.  I hate our country too.  What ever happened to peace and negotiation.  I am sick of this Administration and their evil ways.  They are not Christian!  They are Satans right hand.

    The shrub needs to be pulled he is terrifying

    by libbie on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:24:28 AM PST

  •  The Higher Father must have been really... (7+ / 0-)

    ..smoking some whack shit when he told little Georgie that he had a mission to bring democracy to the world as "His gift."

    "It's not selling out if you don't get paid, okay? We're not whores. When you do it for free, that's just slutty." -Wonkette -6.38/ -4.21

    by wonkydonkey on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:25:13 AM PST

  •  One note: (10+ / 0-)

    I've posted this in several places, but it is incorrect to say that today's action is an airstrike.  It is an air assault, which is the insertion of infantry via helicopter or paradrop (in this case, helicopter).  This is not "dropping bombs", although bombs were no doubt used, as well as missiles and aerial artillery.

    What it means is that the US military inserted a large infantry force to quickly take control of an area.  That this caused collateral damage in certain, but it is not the sort of aerial bombing campaign that you seem to be describing.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:26:16 AM PST

  •  I know what you mean (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    I first thought about the Christmas bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong.

    I also thought that the operation was called "Operation Schwarma" for a second - but then realized that this would have been too honest a characterization of its inevitable results.

    As for the Bushies: this is simply one more bit of proof that they are thugs - evil bastards with whom we cannot negotiate.

    The Perfect is the Enemy of the Better

    by dabize on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:29:06 AM PST

  •  I wonder if this is cover for strikes on Iran (23+ / 0-)

    Under cover of the most massive air assault since 2003 we could be moving thousands of troops and vehicles into positions near the Iranian border (just enough to seize the oil fields, mind you) and preparing for massive air strikes on Iran.  

    I can't see any military justification for this scale of air assault operation within Iraq, as another flattened village or two isn't going to make any difference there.  By now we have proven that more air strikes equates to more insurgents over time, so I'm looking for another rationale.

    The UN Security Council is certain to vote down sanctions tomorrow.  That gives Bush and Co. the cover they need to blame the ineffectual UN for the "necessity" of pre-emptive military action against Iran.  Before the press conference is over, the air strikes may already have begun.

    I don't have a good feeling about this.

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

    by LondonYank on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:29:08 AM PST

  •  Making enemy the old fashion way (7+ / 0-)

    This makes it quite obvious to me the Military is getting desperate. When they resort to Destroying the village to save it they are running out of options. It was a tactic used in Vietnam. It offers only a hollow P.R. victory. It didn't work then and it won't work in Iraq now. In fact it will just create more insurgents from the survivors of the assault.

    Disabled Viet Vet ret. My snark is worse than my bite

    by eddieb061345 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:29:47 AM PST

  •  These... (8+ / 0-)

    are evil deeds. And evil men. Sadly, there are a number of evil women who have helped to orchestrate and support this mess.

    Some of their names are:







    "I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41

    by RonV on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:32:05 AM PST

  •  Bombs without end. Amen. (7+ / 0-)

    How much more misery can be visited upon these people? I'm in tears, too. I feel such anger and shame today. And I hate it that my church says nothing more than "We pray that our leaders make good decisions." Well, Father, forgive them ....

  •  This is W's way (11+ / 0-)

    of showing the entire world that he is the person Revelations & Jesus warned us about- evil done with pious words.

  •  And for what 'noble cause' (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    assyrian64, wader, grayscale

    are we carpet-bombing Iraq? What will it accomplish-besides killing people...what then? After witnessing the killing of more of their fellow Iraqis, will that cause them to stop resisting and flood the streets demanding Wal-Mart, Coca-Cola and Tom Friedman books? This is a nightmare and even though we are far away geographically, we cannot escape the reprecussions of this forever.

    It is vanity to wish for a long life and to care little about leading a good life. -Thomas à Kempis, 'The Imitation of Christ'.

    by chicagochristianleft on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:34:02 AM PST

  •  Apostate is the word (4+ / 0-)

    They are taking from contributors like Marey Carey, Selling our ports to Dubai, Killing people when they say they are promoting a culture of life.

    They are 100% Apostate and that should be the word that is used whenever talking about them.

    Idiot also comes to mind but heck, I like to be scholarly.

    We're gonna explode?! I don't wanna explode! 宁静

    by TalkieToaster on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:39:02 AM PST

  •  war poem (9+ / 0-)

    seems tragically appropriate for the day.

    Who are these?
    Why sit they here in twilight?
    Wherefore rock they, purgatorial shadows,
    Drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish,
    Baring teeth that leer like skulls' teeth wicked?
    Stroke on stroke of pain, - but what slow panic,
    Gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
    Ever from their hair and through their hands' palms
    Misery swelters. Surely we have perished
    Sleeping, and walk hell; but who these hellish?

    - These are men whose minds the Dead have ravished.
    Memory fingers in their hair of murders,
    Multitudinous murders they once witnessed.
    Wading sloughs of flesh these helpless wander,
    Treading blood from lungs that had loved laughter.
    Always they must see these things and hear them,
    Batter of guns and shatter of flying muscles,
    Carnage incomparable, and human squander
    Rucked too thick for these men's extrication.

    Therefore still their eyeballs shrink tormented
    Back into their brains, because on their sense
    Sunlight seems a blood-smear; night comes blood-black;
    Dawn breaks open like a wound that bleeds afresh.
    - Thus their heads wear this hilarious, hideous,
    Awful falseness of set-smiling corpses.
    - Thus their hands are plucking at each other;
    Picking at the rope-knouts of their scourging;
    Snatching after us who smote them, brother,
    Pawing us who dealt them war and madness.

    By Wilfred Owen

    Thanks to Sweet Georgia Peach at Street Prophets for the poem today.

    Do not be overwhelmed by the enormity of the world's grief...You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

    by Albatross on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:40:45 AM PST

  •  Stick it to these bastards, MSOC (0+ / 0-)

    you are kickin their ASS!

    You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

    by buhdydharma on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:44:28 AM PST

  •  Per AP: a suspected insurgent operating area (4+ / 0-)

    Doesn't THIS make you feel just dandy to be an American?  "The U.S. military said the air- and ground-offensive dubbed Operation Swarmer was aimed at clearing â€oea suspected insurgent operating area” northeast of Samarra and was expected to continue over several days."

    •  Emphasis: SUSPECTED (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      curtadams, trashablanca

      Forgot to emphasize that. My bad!

      •  that''s why the (4+ / 0-)

        2002 Doctrine of Preemptive War had to be reaffirmed

        If necessary, however, under long-standing principles of self defense, we do not rule out use of force before attacks occur, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy's attack," the document continues.

        That's a carte blanche. I don't think that what is  going on right now (of course just guessing) is the "ultimate assault on insurgents". They sell it that way. What they are doing most probably is position themselves to be ready to attack Iran.

        They accepted to talk with Iran, unilaterally, and they explicitly excluded the nuclear issues from those upcoming talks.

        So, there must be something else, something that is so important to the administration, that they want Iran to comply with it or else ... they just might resort to military actions to get Iranians to comply. This seems to me as preparatory work on the ground to have enough troops to be ready to potentially engage in a military action against Iran as well. And from the other side, Afghanistan, they get ready help from NATO troops.

        You know this administration thinks BIG. I see them positioning from Syria to Pakistan to cover the whole area somewhat.

        A country is not only what it does - it is also what it puts up with, what it tolerates. - Kurt Tucholsky

        by mimi on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:17:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  I bought a peace flag last christmas (4+ / 0-)

    I forget to buy a pole for it though. But I think I'll go take apart an old broom so I can go hang it on the porch right now.

  •  If only... (3+ / 0-)

    ...Bush could ride the bomb a la Dr.Strangelove.

    Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan

    by boran2 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:49:28 AM PST

  •  They are killing for poll numbers (13+ / 0-)

    Wasn't it just last week (or was it this week?) when they explained to us that the biggest threat we face is from IEDs? I can't get my mind to connect 'massive air strike' to 'improvised explosive devices' - unless the objective is to just level the place, schools, children and all. I suppose that's one way to eradicate IEDs.

    Then again, maybe it's a 'hearts and minds' gambit. If we kill and/or maim a bunch of people, their friends or family, maybe the Iraqis will divert their hostility from each other, to us. How's that for defending America?

    Nothing about this makes a whit of sense, unless you consider Bush's disasterous approval ratings.

    They must be trying to rally the 'America - fuck yeah!' crowd. You know - the loud mouthed right who only know  patriotism when we are blowing shit up or killing people.

    •  I suppose if just plain hate everything that they (0+ / 0-)

      do regardless of what it is, none of it will make sense. The objective of the whole mission is to capture and disrupt insugent cells. Insugents who plant IEDs, blow stuff up, and kill people. Belive it or not, the insugency kills people too. Innocent ones. If the objectinve was to level the place, then we would just drop a MOAB. We wouldnt bother with an air assult if we just wanted to level the place.

      I think the real problem is that most of the people posting on this thread have no clue just what an air assult is, and how it works, and most of them dont really care. All they see (like you) is that it is a military operation, so it must be evil, and that thier goal is to just kill everyone who looks funny.

      I agree with you that patriotism is not just "blowing shit up' (which, by the way, is NOT the objective of an air assult) but patriotism is also not ignorantly discrediting what your counrty does.

      Evil prevails only when good men do nothing

      by Mason6883 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:01:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  PLEASE, define 'insurgent' (7+ / 0-)

        Because from where I'm sitting, I see a bunch of Iraqis who want us the fuck out of their country.

        Not insurgents. Iraqi citizens. Who believe -- and, apparently, correctly -- that we are at war WITH THEM.

        We have NO BUSINESS being in Iraq.

        •  Standard definition of insurgent (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoeWPgh, mimi, Maryscott OConnor, peeder

          A person who revolts against civil authority or an established government.  A rebel not recognized as a belligerent.

          It raises these questions:
          Is the regime in Iraq a civil authority or an established government?  I believe that the answer is  No.

          Are the people who are being killed rebelling?  Yes, against the occupation of their country.

          Are they being recognized as belligerents?  I believe that to recognize them as belligerents would place them within the context of the Geneva Conventions.  The US military is very carefully not recognizing them as belligerents just as it coined the "combatants" terminology to avoid the Geneva Conventions at Gitmo.

          So the answer is that they are insurgents only because the US government does not recognize them as belligerents.

          Now, the meaning of belligerent is someone belonging to or recognized as at a state of war and protected by or subject to the laws of war.

          So, if these folk are insurgents, Bush is not a wartime president.  And if Bush is a wartime president, these are belligerents and Bush is subject to the laws of war.  He can't have it both ways.

          Therefore MSOC, you are even technically correct.

          •  that's a terrific line of reasoning - (0+ / 0-)

            Can someone make it a slogan - I love it.

            So, if these folk are insurgents, Bush is not a wartime president.  And if Bush is a wartime president, these are belligerents and Bush is subject to the laws of war.

            A country is not only what it does - it is also what it puts up with, what it tolerates. - Kurt Tucholsky

            by mimi on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:59:11 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Say! What flavor (0+ / 0-)

        is today's kool aid?

        All they see (like you) is that it is a military operation, so it must be evil, and that thier goal is to just kill everyone who looks funny.

        Sorry pal. My beef is not with the professional military. It's with the chickenhawk civilian leadership and their craven political manipulations. It's also with the assinine schemers who ignore the realities on the ground in favor of their wild eyed fantasies.

        The inevitable 'collateral damage' is, in reality, the deaths of innocent people. People who are wives, sons, grandmothers, children, friends and neighbors. This does nothing to diffuse the hostility. If anything, it persuades people to fall away from our side of the fence. Has it occured to you that the insurgency is growing because we are creating 'terrorists' out of everyday people faster than we can kill the ones already there?

        Let me 'spain it real slow for you - Getting tough is not going to persuade anyone to not blow themselves up. I never understood that underlying insanity for Bush's war. "Hey fellas! If we threaten to kill these people, they'll stop killing themselves and taking others with them!!"

        As is the Bush regime's way, they are fighting fire with gasoline. It's groundhog day - all over again.

  •  Milton on conquering the foe (5+ / 0-)

    ...our better part remains
    To work in close design, by fraud or guile
    What force effected not: that he no less
    At length from us may find, who overcomes
    By force, hath overcome but half his foe

    Paradise Lost, Book One

    (And thanks, Maryscott, for your anguished cry against this government's evil attack by bombardment.)

    "... the laborers still form an incoherent mass scattered over the whole country, and broken up by their mutual competition."

    by Valtin on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:51:59 AM PST

  •  A 33% Bush (21+ / 0-)

    with massive and unchecked power over our military and spy agencies, is a very dangerous thing for America. Todays news makes me shudder because I fear that this Admin will use any soldier, bomb, money, lie and blackmail to save thier political asses.

    New Orleans - The Birthplace of American Music - help the The New Orleans Musicians Hurricane Relief Fund

    by Ramar on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:56:15 AM PST

  •  When George I (7+ / 0-)

    was still in office we were having trouble with China about Taiwan.  One morning, around 2:30 AM there was loud thrupping over the house.  I went outside and there were big-ass army helicopters flying east.  I went back into the house and hugged every one of my kids.

    Thank you for posting this, Maryscott.

  •  I've thought about this and (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, imabluemerkin

    it seems like posteuring.  A show of strength to display who is in charge before it all comes to a civil war and all out conflict.
    As tax day comes please remember how much of those tax dollars are paying for the maiming and dying.  There is another diary out today which says that since 2003 100,000 children have died or been injured because of US actions and presence in Iraq.  
    I wish I could cause paying these taxes which get automatically taken out of my damn paycheck as a way to protest the way they are being spent...

  •  I love you Maryscott... (4+ / 0-)

    for doing what the MSM should  have been doing all along...

    The power of your post is stunning in its truth. It should be seen all over the world.

  •  I just can't stand this (6+ / 0-)

    What on earth is it going to take to get America to wake up?  This is worse than the worst scenario I imagined when Bush was re-elected.

  •  I feel more and more naive every day... (11+ / 0-)

    Is there still a place for this anymore?
    Or has that time passed?

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  •  So, is this what democracy looks like?! (4+ / 0-)

    I'm fucking ashamed to be an American right now.

  •  Wicca: Harm None nt (5+ / 0-)

    The writing on the wall has run out of wall. Now we're writing on the floor.

    by marjo on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:07:49 PM PST

  •  Peace vs War (21+ / 0-)

    "If the human race wishes to have a prolonged and indefinite period of material prosperity, they have only got to behave in a peaceful and helpful way toward one another."
    -- Winston Churchill

    "I prefer the most unfair peace to the most righteous war."
    -- Cicero

    "I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
    -- Mohandas K. Gandhi

    "And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
    -- Isaiah 2:4

    "Peace is a journey of a thousand miles and it must be taken one step at a time."
    -- Lyndon B Johnson

    "Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind...War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."
    -- John F. Kennedy

    "Peace is a daily, a weekly, a monthly process, gradually changing opinions, slowly eroding old barriers, quietly building new structures."
    -- John F. Kennedy

    "The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend."
    -- Abraham Lincoln

    "More than an end to war, we want an end to the beginning of all wars -- yes, an end to this brutal, inhuman and thoroughly impractical method of settling the differences between governments."
    -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

    "Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all."
    -- George Washington

    "There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power; not organized rivalries, but an organized peace.
    -- Woodrow Wilson

  •  I'm just so angry (12+ / 0-)

    and tired, as I stated in Carnacki's diary yesterday.  This fucking media has blood on their hands. Once AGAIN, they're reporting this "breathlessly" and are just cheerleaders for this administration.  This isn't NEWS.  They way they are "repoorting," everything is all precision, no innocents get hurt, and rah rah, the US is awesome!

    I don't know why, but I feel this is just a run up to Iran--getting the public all riled up all over again, and thirsty for blood, wrapped in blind patriotism.  No one cares about the people killed, hell our media even stopped caring about our own soldiers long ago, let alone Iraqis.

    There's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated...insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason.-NoFx

    by SairaLV on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:08:31 PM PST

  •  Religious fundamentalists... (7+ / 0-)

    of any stripe have absolutely no trouble with recreating God in their image.  I listen to the American Taliban and I can find no similarities to the Christian teachings from my youth, nor my reading of the Bible.

    Certainty generally is illusion, and repose is not the destiny of man. - OWH

    by blockbuster on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:08:54 PM PST



  •  We need war crimes trials (8+ / 0-)

      And not in the United States, because there is no court in the U.S. with the combination of competence and authority to try those responsible.

      If there was any doubt about whether the U.S. should sign up for the International Criminal Court, the answer should be clear now: we need to join the I.C.C. just so that George Bush and his fellow war criminals can be sent to the Hague.

      It's the fact that they keep getting away with it that allows the right wing to keep coming back and committing worse atrocities.  Carter never put the Nixon-Ford criminals on trial.  Clinton overlooked the many and manifest crimes of Reagan and Bush (presumably so he could commit his own).  We need to teach the lesson that if you do engage in coups d'etat, assassinations, aggressive warfare, attacks on civilians, torture and other violations of human and national rights, you will be keeping cool in a nice clean jail cell -- not for six months, not two years, but for the rest of your natural life.  That prospect might give future wanna-be emperors pause.

  •  And they call this the 'culture of life' (6+ / 0-)

    I am embarrassed to be an American, and I fell totally powerless. What will Bush do when his approval ratings drop into the 20s?


    •  Don't be embarrassed; we do have the power, but (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      we have to use it, repeatedly, be as unrelenting as they are.
      March this weekend, or call senators/reps, start a vigil, get arrested for peace...It's VERY EMPOWERING!!! Do whatever you feel called to do; just do something! Be an activist, not a passivist.
      And nonviolent civil disobedience on a large scale WILL have an impact.
      The terrorists in the White House are in their last throes!

      Two Thousand Three Hundred and Nine -- How Many More?

      by Wbythebay on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:54:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's times like this... (6+ / 0-)

    ...that really make me wish I believe in Hell, so I could at least take comfort in knowing that the sick fuckers who did this would spend eternity in a lake of fire.  Because there's no punishment on this earth that's sufficient for those who launch wars of agression.

  •  What I'm frightned of. . . (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Floja Roja

    Artist:   Bad religion
    Song: God's Love
    Album: The Empire Strikes First

    Striking at mental apparitions
    Like a drunk on a vacant street
    Silently beset by the hands of time
    Indelicate in its fury
    An aberrant crack as skeletons yield
    To unrelenting gravity
    While viruses prowl for helpless victims
    Who succumb rapidly

    Tell me! Tell me;
    Where is the love?
    In a careless creation
    When thereâ€TMs no â€oeabove”
    Thereâ€TMs no justice
    Just a cause and a cure
    And a bounty of suffering
    It seems we all endure
    And what Iâ€TMm frightened of
    Is that they call it â€oeGodâ€TMs love”

    Twisted torment, make-believe
    Thereâ€TMs a truth and we all submit
    â€oeBelieve my eyes,” my brain replies
    To all that they interpret


    I know thereâ€TMs no reason for alarm
    But who needs perspective when it comes to pain and harm
    We can change our minds; thereâ€TMs a better prize

    But first youâ€TMve got to…
    Tell me! Tell me;
    Where is the love?
    In a careless creation
    When thereâ€TMs no â€oeabove”
    Thereâ€TMs no justice
    Just a cause and a cure
    And a bounty of suffering
    It seems we all endure
    And what Iâ€TMm frightened of
    Is that they call it â€oeGodâ€TMs love”

    They call it Godâ€TMs love
    My pain is Godâ€TMs love

  •  Jesus also said 'Destroy this temple' (see (6+ / 0-)

    ...subtitle linked below for more on Jesus' and St. Stephen's work against hypocritical religious authorities.)

    Thanks for this diary... this is what I have been trying to say for over ten years since I discovered that the real story of Jesus was completely edited... he was a rebel religious leader much like we see with Islam... Modern "christians" are nothing

    The beauty of what survived the great editing of 325AD at the Council of Nicea is the "destroy this temple" portion in the Gospel of John that survived the editing and the Acts discussion of St. Stephen that has Stephen saying *"the Most High does not live in houses made by men"*...

    ...that discovery was just amazing to me when I was in my early twenties...

  •  Shivers (7+ / 0-)

    Thanks for the shivers.  As an atheist, I continue to not understand claims of peace from those that claim we are at war when we are not, from those that seek to legalize torture, from those that would prefer to consider everyone a terrorist than listen to them speak.

  •  It is true, to love is not to harm.... (4+ / 0-)

    Years ago some folk came to my door, many times, holding out a bible and urging I join them.  I did not but I thought, after hearing so many quotes from the bible used to hate and isolate, that i would read the new testament...matthew,mark, luke, john.  I had Issac Asimov's book, a geo-political reference for those times and a book from England, 1940's, dissertating on all aspects of the new teatament (gospels).  So with those in hand I read the gospels and realized that the Christ was about love and acceptance and look to yourself before you make judgement and also that he was persecuted by the party in power and tried time and again to stay alive ( thanks Isaac Assimov) so he could speak some more.   The people now occupying the Big House  are criminals and liars.  They spoke untruth regarding september 11....we know they spoke untruth when dragging us all to war and we know they speak untruth about what they do everyday, regarding everything that we have :  they are taking away public lands, health care, freedom of speech and THE FREEDOM TO ASSEMBLE to protest THESE TAKINGS AND THE LIES.
    Be angry.  Be very angry.  
    There is nothing about love or empathy for the betterment of all and this great planet coming from the Big House...only lies, fear born of lies, self promotion and greed.
    Vote them out, love your neighbor.

  •  Antichrist (7+ / 0-)

    I am finally at peace with christianity. Actually, they were pretty smart back then. John knew that murder, war, pillaging, and all of the awful acts that people do would be done in Christ's name.

    Christianity has become led by the antichrist, more of a philosophy than a single preson, it's many people, falwell, Reagan, Robertson, and Most significantly Bush.

    People who believe in the teachings of christ must reject the antichrist, or be thwarted along with Bush.

    Lake of fire, lake of fire.

    You can't get away with the crunch, 'cuz the crunch always gives you away

    by dnamj on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:21:30 PM PST

    •  It is not an exaggeration to state that Bush (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jpwillis, trashablanca, imabluemerkin

      and the top echelon of his administration and the GOP, are consumed with evil.  The fact that every last one of these fucking bastards wraps themselves in pious rhetoric and sanctimony while commiting atrocities against decency and humanity reveals the shocking, terrifying extent of their treachery and depravity.  

      We must continue to raise our voices and become a beacon of light that will never surrender to this darkness.  

      The intrinsic nature of Power is such that those who seek it most are least qualified to wield it.

      by mojo workin on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:13:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Keep posting (8+ / 0-)

    Diaries like this, with pictures we can't ignore, keep this issue first and foremost.  This is being done in our name with our financial backing.  The more resistance we put up, the better. Speaking in the language of religious morality will rouse those who may have been sleeping. Great diary.

  •  bush is the (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    antichrist, rumsfeld and cheney could join him also.

  •  It has been a difficult morning.... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, lezlie, imabluemerkin

    to be so profoundly disgusted by what is clearly a political tactic and at the same time, very proud that I received the endorsement of the IAVA PAC.

    I hope that everyone sees through the tears and prepares to fight hard.  We have only a few months and this "air strike" demonstrates how important it is for us to send the message to DC that the American people have a serious problem with this.

  •  Thank you, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lezlie, Ellicatt, imabluemerkin

    sincerely, for this diary.  Recommended.

    Your heart and soul are beautiful.  Again, thank you.

    "Ancoro Imparo." ("I am still learning.") - Michelangelo, Age 87

    by Dreaming of Better Days on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:25:35 PM PST

  •  Terry Pratchett (4+ / 0-)

    ...we will march beyond the hand of Death together. For the enemy is not (Christian) nor is it (Muslim), but it is the baleful, the malign, the cowardly, the vessels of hatred, those that do a bad thing and call it good.

    From Terry Pratchett's "Thud!". Emphasis mine.

    We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

    by Fabian on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:27:05 PM PST

  •  Every ambitious would-be empire (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mmacdDE, Lashe

    Every ambitious would-be empire, clarions it abroad that she is conquering the world to bring it peace, security and freedom, and it is sacrificing her sons only for the most noble and humanitarian purposes. That is a lie; and it is an ancient lie, yet generations still rise and believe it.

    -Henry David Thoreau

    A fool and his liberty are soon parted. [-8.38,-6.15]

    by Jeff G on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:27:10 PM PST

  •  As a Christian,I simply have to laugh at this. (6+ / 3-)

    A quick bit of detective work on your last photo ( the only image I checked, is taken  from MSNBC's story on an insurgent bombing

    Are you attempting to blame this on the Americans?  You baldfaced hypocrite, when Iraqis bomb other Iraqis, or worse, when foreign terrorists bomb Iraqis, you have nothing to say.  

    I have confronted you before about your rude treatment of Christianity, but I'm a big boy, and my faith can stand up to the likes of you.  

    But when you attribute the work of Zarqawi to the Americans, you have crossed a line called The Truth, and I'm going to call you on it.

    Here is the story, in total.

    BAGHDAD, Iraq - Insurgents struck with a vengeance in a burst of attacks following a post-election lull, killing at least 29 people, including two Marines. In one ambush, they waylaid a minibus carrying new Iraqi army recruits. Elsewhere they detonated car bombs and gunned down police and Iraqis working for the U.S. military, officials said Thursday.

    Insurgents had eased up on attacks following Sundayâ€TMs elections, when American and Iraqi forces imposed sweeping security measures to protect the voters.

     U.S. soldier attached to a Marine unit was killed while carrying out operations south of Baghdad, the U.S. military said on Friday.

    The soldier was killed in Babil province, which stretches just south of the capital, on Thursday, but no further details were given

    Separately, U.S. and Iraqi security forces may have come close to capturing Iraq's most-wanted militant leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the past two weeks and are weakening his network, Iraqâ€TMs interior minister said Thursday.

    'Missed him by one hour'
    â€oeWe are following him,” Interior Minister Falah al-Naquib told Pentagon reporters in a videoconference from Baghdad. â€oeI think we missed him twice or three times, but hopefully next time we will be able to capture him.

    â€oeI think we arrived a bit late. Maybe we missed him by one hour. ... You know, he is not staying in one place. He is moving from one area to another. So, we will get him â€" very soon, hopefully,” Naquib added.

    Rumors of Zarqawiâ€TMs capture have surfaced in recent weeks, including reports a month ago that he had been apprehended in the insurgent stronghold of Baqouba, north of Baghdad.

    The minister declined to provide details of the latest raids, including where they occurred and whether they involved joint U.S.-Iraqi operations. But he said Zarqawiâ€TMs support network had been weakened with the arrests of more than 350 â€oeterrorists” in the three weeks before Sundayâ€TMs election.

    Zarqawi is a Jordanian Sunni Muslim who leads a group in Iraq that allies itself with the al-Qaida network. The group has claimed responsibility for numerous car bombings and other deadly attacks on U.S.-led forces in Iraq and on Iraqi police and other security forces.

    People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

    by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:29:16 PM PST

    •  As a non Christian, I simply keep thinking (7+ / 0-)

      that if we hadn't invaded under false pretenses (OK, lies) then these insurgent bombings wouldn't be happening because there wouldn't be any insurgents.

      Chicken or egg?  You make your own decision, I've made mine.

      Great work MSOC, can't wait to meet you at YK.

      "Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is." -Governor George W Bush (R-TX)

      by espresso on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:37:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mason6883, ivorybill

        I, too, believe George Bush invaded under false pretenses.  If we must have this nonsense about Chicken and Egg, Saddam was murdering and torturing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib before we got there, which rather belies this business of whose story makes sense here.  Maryscott has alleged these atrocities are the work of The Great Christian America, which by your own admission, is hardly the case.

        No, espresso, this is the reality of post-Saddam Iraq.   We are not guilty of the crimes alleged in this mendacious little diary.

        Do you believe the Iraqi's don't deserve self-determination?  I really do hate to put such a begged question to you, but really, it seems to me you don't care who kills who.  If Muslim terrorists kill Americans or Iraqis, you really don't seem to much mind.  Tell me you do care about Iraqis, who are being murdered by the same people who are murdering Americans, both here and in Iraq.

        People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

        by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:02:23 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, we are guilty. (7+ / 0-)

          And, under any category of Western moral theory, we are morally responsible for these deaths.  In the words of Colin Powell, if we break it, we own it.

          This is an UNJUST war and virtually every ethicist, moral philosopher and many Christian - Catholic, Methodist and many other Christian theologians, agree.

          It is UNJUST, because we invaded the country without provocation.  And, whether or not Saddam was murdering and torturing Iraqis at Abu Ghraib does not make it just.  Further, Saddam's evil conduct certainly does not make the murder and torture BY AMERICAN TROOPS at Abu Ghraib just or excusable.  Your words eat themselves.  

          Further, whether or not we believe Iraqi's "deserve self-determination" plays no part in the moral culpability of the United States.  

          Because this is an unjust war, we are therefore morally responsible for ALL death that occurs in that country because of our invasion.  We are especially responsible for the bombs that WE dropped that killed thousands of INNOCENT Iraqis.  This is the most reprehensible thing America has done since the bombing of Cambodia (again an example of unprovoked attack by the United States).

          It's that simple, and you better wake up and stop deluding yourself before you meet you maker.

          •  Bullshit. The UN Convention on Genocide alone (1+ / 3-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:
            TealVeal, RabidNation, wiscmass

            justified a war against Saddam Hussein.

            I am perpetually amused by those who wish to take the moral high ground on this war in Iraq.  When Iraqis kill other Iraqis, none of your moral philosophers will stand up to say an American is culpable.  We're not even an accessory to these murders.  If anything, our standing-by while Saddam massacred his Kurds and Shii makes us accessory.

            But again, you not being a Christian, and woefully deficient in theology and historical philosophy, you wouldn't understand the notion of Just War, or Hugo  Grotius, the father of modern civil rights.  Hugo Grotius said war was justified, after all other options had been exhausted, and was a war to obtain a right.  The Iraqis deserve freedom

            Does this excuse Bush for lying to us about this war?  Absolutely not.  But don't you think for a minute the Iraqis didn't deserve to be liberated.

            But again, returning to Christianity, we are indeed our brother's keeper.  Those who stand by, doing nothing, while genocide goes on, are not permitted a moral stance when retribution is visited on les genocideurs, and that means you, Max.

            People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

            by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:47:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ding ding ding! (8+ / 2-)
              You get the "missing the point" award for the day.

              Read what the diary is about.  It's about people who are claiming to be Christians who then lie and kill, and kill a lot of innocent people, including children.

              Get off your fucking high horse and deal with THAT reality, pal.

              Or are you one of those Christians who enjoys killing children?  

              "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

              by Nordic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:20:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  UNJust War (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Maryscott OConnor, play jurist

              I am not talking about Iraqis killing Iraqis.  I'm talking about American bombs, paid for by our tax dollars, being dropped on innocent Iraqi civilians, including children, and killing/maiming them.

              This is what you will answer for Sister Christian.

              The rest of your points are nonsensical, e.g. "Hugo Grotius said war was justified, after all other options had been exhausted, and was a war to obtain a right.  The Iraqis deserve freedom...", the Iraqis "deserve" to be liberated, les genocideurs???

              Your words are continuing to feast on themselves.  

              •  Do not bandy words with me. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Avila, Eternal Hope, ivorybill

                The picture in question is definitively of Iraqis killing Iraqis.  Those American bombs are problem enough, sure, you might have some moral ground to stand on there.  But since you're not ready to face the fact the picture is of Iraqi blood on a car seat, shed by Iraqi hands, you fail the test, and pass on into oblivion.

                People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

                by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:30:51 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  This is as good a place as any... (6+ / 0-)

                  Blaise, I must humbly apologise for my troll ratings of you (which I have retracted) and my foul invective.

                  I still disagree vehemently with you, and I am still disgusted with your characterisation of me.

                  However, after much reflection, it is clear to me that I owe you an apology for my behaviour toward you in this discussion.

                  I STILL THINK YOU'RE DEAD WRONG ABOUT A GREAT MANY THINGS. Just want that crystal clear.

                  But I don't think you're a troll (though the case could be made that you have BEHAVED trollishly, I'm hardly the one to make it, since I have, as well).

                  So I humbly offer you my apology for every unkind, vicious, profane and derogatory remark I have made to you. It was wrong of me to do it, and I will do my very best not to repeat the behaviour.

                  with sincerity and embarrassment,

                  •  You are a gracious soul to offer an apology (7+ / 0-)

                    of this sort, and it is gratefully accepted.  I drove home, upset with myself for much of what transpired between us, but I have lost my TU status anyway over this.  I differ from the vast majority of this forum.  I am a seriously wounded veteran of another war waged on false pretenses, and I have my own tale to tell.  

                    People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

                    by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:43:00 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's a horrible, horrible thing, war. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Eternal Hope, conchita, Wbythebay

                      And I read your comments about Ba'athists and the Hussein regime with seriousness. I am not a denier of the evil that was his reign.

                      I'm truly sorry this went down like it did, and I ask anyone still reading to please withdraw the troll ratings. We ALL behave badly at times, and while Blaise's emotional responses drew the ire of many, it does behoove us as people who call ourselves liberals to take into account the CONTEÌ£XT of people's behaviour.

                      (I still disagree with you, but let's just leave this alone for a while and come back to it another day, when we're not so psychologically drained, shall we?)

                      Peace, for us all, is my wish.


                      •  Thanks for settling this civilly. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Maryscott OConnor, ivorybill

                        I can speak to what BlaiseP said.

                        You have to be careful about using's stuff about the Iraq War. They will frequently post stuff from other battles on current stories without a disclaimer, leading the reader to believe that it is from the current story. Furthermore, there is a lack of evidence for a lot of the things they post. I found this out for myself when I posted some stuff from their site here and at my place.

                        I had a knock-down drag-out fight with Blaise once, but he happens to be right on this one.

                        But this is still a good diary because of the way it depicts the horrors of war. We need more stuff like this.

                    •  Let us know how it is going. (0+ / 0-)

                      All killings by the insurgents and Zarqawi's people and the militias are just as wrong as any civilian deaths from these new air strikes from the Bush administration. I can't pass judgement on the soldiers actually performing these missions -- they or God are the only ones who can judge themselves for how they conducted themselves during the war. Our job should be to be as supportive as possible after the war and help returning Iraq War vets get back on their feet again.

                      But diaries like this make it all the more important that we put people like Wes Clark in charge of the Secretary of Defense post when we win in 2008. He understands how to conduct an air war without inflicting tens of thousands of civilian casualties, unlike Bush and Rumsfeld.

                  •  Maryscott (0+ / 0-)

                    Thanks for this.

                    This is "triggering" for me. My Dad, a WWII 1st LT in the Pacific Theatre who should have been decorated, was instead disgraced by the government, labelled psychotic and scuttled for months of what I can only call torture.  Electroshock therapy finished off the destruction of his nervous system for which cause the VA refused to even give him a "disabled veteran" license plate.  Because the damage happened in a VA hospital instead of on the battlefield where he developed PTSD and the amphetamine psychosis.  His generation was the first guard of human guinea pig pilots to whom the govt secretly administered amphetamines to "improve performance... without their knowledge.  He thought they were vitamin B shots.  He died not understanding why he lost his mind, and I saw him destroy his own dignity with countless fits (triggered by lots of things) and absurd acts attempting to prove his sanity to himself.  And of course despite 60 years' of service as his personal psych nurse, the VA also denied my Mom a pension after his death.

                    Vets, I've seen, sometimes just go ballistic on a point and end up eating crow later on.  I thank you for the humility to exhibit kindness to BlaiseP, even though like you I have much disagreement with "the letter" of some of the points.  You saw through to the spirit of it.

                    As a second-generation PTSD survivor, I know what it means to be "triggered" and I think the photos probably fry a lot of vets' minds.  Not to say to change a thing.  They need to be posted.  But thank you so much for seeing a triggering event for what it was.

                    nostalgia isn't what it used to be

                    by stonemason on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 07:14:04 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Shorter Blaise (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  After reading many of your delusional posts on this thread Blaise (quite presumptuous and off-the-mark of you to use Pascal's name to refer to yourself) I think I can encapsulate your position in the following famous quote from an American officer serving in Viet Nam, right after an American attack had leveled the village:

                  "We had to destroy the village to save it."

                  Liberation my ass!!!

                  Go get down on your knees before the God you claim to worhip and ask him for the grace of the Holy Spirit to LIBERATE YOUR MIND from your Satanic delusions of the nobility and altruism of the empire you serve!!!

                  Back in Roman days, you would have been one of those people that would have defended the dominance of Rome over other peoples, and done so with delusional notions about the superiority of Roman civilization and culture and the "rule of Roman law."

                  And to call yourself a "Christian" on top of it?

                  Tell me a another fuckin' joke.  Your "Lord" is not Christ, but Caesar.

                  •  I will, as Pascal did, defend myself with facts. (2+ / 1-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eternal Hope, ivorybill
                    Hidden by:

                    And as for that famous "we had to destroy the village to save it", that's an urban legend.  Nobody ever destroyed a village to save it.  There was the disgusting episode of AMERICAL Lt. William Calley, who is said to be the nexus of that legend, but there is another American, whose name you will remember, named Colin Powell, who covered up the My Lai Massacre.  His now-infamous words "we have the utmost respect for the Vietnamese people" were used to cover up the investigation.  The moral problems with our involvement in Iraq begin much higher.  I will not have you say I was a warmonger because I was a soldier.  It is a non-sequitur, like saying a bull rider loves being stomped by bulls.  You'd better be glad there are men like me who will shoulder that weapon and make the split-second moral decisions which keep innocent civilians from dying.

                    I do not see you telling me Saddam's genocide and wars are a myth.  That much you do not have the guts or intellect to say, for you know them to be documented and furthermore, you understand the American connivance and Sgt Schultz "I see nothing" about those dreadful years.  If for no other reason than to atone for our support for Saddam Hussein, this war was justified.  I do not attempt to justify this war;  this would not be the war I would have fought.  I completely agree with those who oppose this war, on moral grounds, but their morals must be consistent:  they must be pacifists, or abhor the murder of Iraqis with equal vehemence before I will give them the time of day.  Sadly, not many people on Kos decry the murders of Iraqis at the hands of the terrorists.  I hope to change that perception, and cure what few Democrats will listen to me, with the other side of the equation.  It does not make me right, but you do not make me wrong by sneering at me.

                    I do need Jesus Christ.  I need him, because like the alcoholic who gets to Step 1 of the 12 Steps, "my life became unmanageable".  Tell me about how life put you behind a weapon, and on a battlefield, fighting truly murderous evil, how your countrymen gave up on you, how the people you fought for were subjected to genocide by the Pathet Lao, the patient struggle to learn five languages, and how you came to terms with it all, and we'll have something significant to talk about to each other.  You may not need Jesus Christ.  I've seen too fucking much death and misery and what mankind will do to other men in the name of ideology.  

                    I found peace by working in refugee camps, caring for the victims of war.

                    Oddly, Jesus Christ had nothing to say about Rome.  He did cure the centurion's daughter, and told the scheming Pharisees to render unto Caesar what was Caesar's and unto God what was God's.  I do not see you rendering anything to either Caesar or God, or to your fellow man.  I see an ignorant little brute without either conscience or scruple, attempting to tell me what's what.

                    I was killing men before you were born, probably.  And I'm not ashamed of it.  I killed men who burned down villages and skinned people alive.  I killed genocidal maniacs.  I killed men who had killed my friends and who would have cheerfully killed me.  I wasn't a bastard, I didn't torture people or burn down their houses.  My enemy did that.  It may surprise you, but the killing never bothered me.  It was the aftermath that got to me, the families left behind.  The worst moment of all was cleaning out a friend's effects, sending them back to the States.  A good man.  

                    People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

                    by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:09:09 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Let me answer you, you self-delusional (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:


                      Truly, military intelligence is an oxymoron, and you are Exhibit A as to why this is the case.

                      I'll just answer a few of the more salient points:

                      ] I will, as Pascal did, defend myself with facts. (0 / 0)
                      And as for that famous "we had to destroy the village to save it", that's an urban legend.
                      --Cite your source for that statement. I have read it in printed history books.

                      --Moreover, to show how fuckin' puny your mind is (just like getting on MSO because she showed photos of people killed by Iraqis, when it was the U.S. that created the whole situation to begin with), even if it was NEVER historically said, it conveys a simple truth about the absurd and inhuman results of the so-called "best intentions."

                      Nobody ever destroyed a village to save it.  There was the disgusting episode of AMERICAL Lt. William Calley, who is said to be the nexus of that legend, but there is another American, whose name you will remember, named Colin Powell, who covered up the My Lai Massacre.  His now-infamous words "we have the utmost respect for the Vietnamese people" were used to cover up the investigation.  The moral problems with our involvement in Iraq begin much higher.  I will not have you say I was a warmonger because I was a soldier.  It is a non-sequitur, like saying a bull rider loves being stomped by bulls.  You'd better be glad there are men like me who will shoulder that weapon and make the split-second moral decisions which keep innocent civilians from dying.

                      --Hate to burst your self-delusions of nobility, but a lot of times people like you make decisions that cause a lot of innocent civilians to die.

                      I do not see you telling me Saddam's genocide and wars are a myth.  That much you do not have the guts or intellect to say, for you know them to be documented and furthermore, you understand the American connivance and Sgt Schultz "I see nothing" about those dreadful years.  If for no other reason than to atone for our support for Saddam Hussein, this war was justified.  I do not attempt to justify this war;  
                      --You don't even realize how fuckin INSANE YOU ARE.  Shorter you:  We will atone for supporting past killings by killing even more people.  You're sick.

                      --Praise God, and pass the ammunition, Brother Blaise!!!

                      this would not be the war I would have fought.  I completely agree with those who oppose this war, on moral grounds, but their morals must be consistent:  they must be pacifists, or abhor the murder of Iraqis with equal vehemence before I will give them the time of day.  Sadly, not many people on Kos decry the murders of Iraqis at the hands of the terrorists.
                      --How the fuck do you know?  Your statement is equivilant to those right-wingers who, before the war began, said about anti-war protestors, "Why haven't you protested Saddam and his atrocities?"
                      Short answer:  Because I'm not responsible for Saddam.  I'm responsible for my OWN GOVERNMENT and its own actions.  And the fact is, this war has unleashed all manner of horrors, perpetrated by both Americans and "terrorists."  

                      I do need Jesus Christ.  I need him, because like the alcoholic who gets to Step 1 of the 12 Steps, "my life became unmanageable".  Tell me about how life put you behind a weapon, and on a battlefield, fighting truly murderous evil, how your countrymen gave up on you, how the people you fought for were subjected to genocide by the Pathet Lao, the patient struggle to learn five languages, and how you came to terms with it all, and we'll have something significant to talk about to each other.  You may not need Jesus Christ.  I've seen too fucking much death and misery and what mankind will do to other men in the name of ideology.  
                      --And yet in the name another ideology, namely American empire and the delusion of its altruistic and noble motives, you will excuse crimes of violence perpetrated by your own government.

                      --By the way, jackass, you should read your own Bible some time.  If you did, you'd follow the example of Christ and Paul by using the methods THEY USED to oppose evil.  Somehow, I don't see anyone in the New Testament advocating the use of violence to fight evil.

                      I found peace by working in refugee camps, caring for the victims of war.
                      --Good for you.

                      Oddly, Jesus Christ had nothing to say about Rome.  
                      --So what?  You truly are ignorant and a stupid reader when it comes to the Bible.  Read Revelation, which many Biblical scholars interpret to be an allegory of the Roman persecution of the early Christian church, and a word of encouragement to the early Christian churches to hold out against the Roman "Babylon." Then educate yourself as to the historical context of what was going on in the empire when that book was written.

                      --Read about how POLITICALLY SUBVERSIVE the early Christian confession "Jesus is Lord" was to the Roman political order that said, in effect, "Caesar is Lord,"  and which, accordingly, demanded absolute fealty and obedience from its subjects.

                      --Read early church history from the time of Jesus until Constantine and see the conflict between Rome and the church and how it played itself out.  That conflict existed until Constantine co-opted Christianity by making it the "official religion" of the Roman state.  And ever since, so called Christians have confused the aims of the state with the aims of God.

                      He did cure the centurion's daughter, and told the scheming Pharisees to render unto Caesar what was Caesar's and unto God what was God's.  I do not see you rendering anything to either Caesar or God, or to your fellow man.  
                      --Well maybe you'd like to look at my income tax statement and see what the IRS has made me render to Caesar this year.
                      --As for what I have rendered to God, you do not know me or the details of my life so far, so you are really in no position to comment.
                      --If, however, you mean by these words that I haven't picked up a weapon to KILL other human beings for the aims of my country, then you are correct.

                      I see an ignorant little brute without either conscience or scruple, attempting to tell me what's what.
                      --No my friend.  It is YOU who is ignorant.  Your hermenuetics betray the reading comprehension of a 6th grader.  What are you?  Southern Baptist?  Some other fundamnetalist-evangelical denomination?  That could explain your shallow, narrow and superficial understanding of the scriptures.

                      I was killing men before you were born, probably.  
                      --And you are PROUD OF THIS?  Fuck, you truly are a deluded motherfucker, who has confused the aims of the state with the aims of God (a mistake common to American evangelicals, and even many Catholics).

                      And I'm not ashamed of it.  I killed men who burned down villages and skinned people alive.  I killed genocidal maniacs.  I killed men who had killed my friends and who would have cheerfully killed me.  I wasn't a bastard, I didn't torture people or burn down their houses.  My enemy did that.  It may surprise you, but the killing never bothered me.  It was the aftermath that got to me, the families left behind.  The worst moment of all was cleaning out a friend's effects, sending them back to the States.  A good man.

                      --Jesus said, "No man is good."    And Paul said, "I am the chief of sinners."  Reconcile those statements with your ideas about good and evil, and who it is who truly possesses those qualities.

                      By the way, here's a little history lesson from about 416 B.C.

                      Read it and munch on it.

                      The writer is the Athenian historian Thucydides.

                      The context is the Peloponesian War in which the empire of Athens went to war with the rival empire of Sparta.

                      When the Spartans invaded northern Greece, they came to the city-state of Acanthus, which was loosely aligned with the empire of Athens.  The Spartan general, Brasidas, in an attempt to get the Acanthans to come over to the Spartan side and to surrender to his army that was camped outside the city's walls, gave a long speech.  Here is my favorite part of that speech, 'cause it shows the self-delusional nature of imperialists and conquerors:

                      ""If, now that I have made my position plain, you are going to say that you are unable to help [us], but have freindly feelings toward us and so ought not to be made to suffer for rejecting me; that you regard LIBERTY as a risky thing to have, that it is right to offer it only to THOSE CAPABLE OF RECEIVING IT AND NOT TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE AGAINST HIS WILL, then I shall call upon the gods and heroes of your country to witness that I CAME HERE TO HELP YOU and could not make you understand it.  I shall lay waste to your land and try to bring you over BY FORCE.  And, once this point has been reached, I shall not consider that I am doing anything wrong.  I shall consider that I have two good reasons on my side, which FORCE ME to take this action:  first, I must prevent Sparta from suffering from the money which you, our friends, will go on paying to the Athenians, if you refuse to join us;  secondly, I must not allow the rest of the Greeks to be hindered by you from THROWING OFF THEIR CHAINS.  Otherwisee we should have no right at all to act as we are doing.  We Spartans ARE ONLY JUSTIFIED IN LIBERATING PEOPLE AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL, BECAUSE WE ARE ACTING FOR THE GOOD OF ONE AND ALL ALIKE.  WE HAVE NO IMPERIALISTIC AMBITIONS; our whole effort is to PUT AN END TO IMPERIALISM, AND WE SHOULD BE DOING WRONG TO THE MAJORITY, IF WE WERE TO PUT UP WITH YOUR OPPOSITION TO THE INDEPENDENCE WHICH WE ARE OFFERING TO ALL."

                      --I just love how Brasidas dresses his up his own imperialistic ambitions, which were rival to those of the Athenians, with talk of "liberation," and "freedom," "help" and "independence" and how he deludes himself into thinking that he has a 'right' to "liberate people against their will."

                      --Well guess what?  As a poster who quoted Thoreau up-thread said, empires have been using these kinds of lies and self-justifications for centuries.  Thucydides is evidence of the truth of this observation.

                      --Liberating Iraqis?  My ass!!

                      --We are "liberating" Iraq by trying to set up a supposedly parlimentary client state there . . . . that will be subservient to American interests.  And we are killing a lot of innocent people on our way to doing it.

                      --The ancient Athenians used to play the same types of games whenever they went interfered with other Greek city-states that were ruled by oligarchies and when they assisted the "democratic" parties in those states in overthrowing those oligarchies and in setting up democracies . . . that would then be allied with and subservient to the interests of Athens.

                      --You are a god damned fool.  A blind, self-deluded, and uneducated fool, who has bought into the notion of American empire and all its nice sounding pretexts and noble self-justifications.  And to top it off, you don't see any of this as inconsistent with the religious faith you profess to believe.

                      --Your thinking is truly warped . . . and yet you can't even see it.

                      --That's the saddest part of all.

        •  oh please (4+ / 0-)
          where in any of your arguments is there anything addressing what she is saying?


          The point is that our so-called "leaders" claim to be Christian, yet they're starting wars and killing and maiming a lot of innocent people, especially children.

          This seems to have angered you.


          How can someone who calls themselves a Christian not be appalled by someone WHO CLAIMS TO BE A CHRISTIAN telling lies so that they can kill people?

          Obviously you are offended by something other than this.

          "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

          by Nordic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:18:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  your fooled by war propoganda (5+ / 0-)
      The insurgency is made up of nationalists fighting a foriegn occupying force, and collaborators working with the occupier.

      Those bombings you say are from Zarqawi are conducted by US trained death squads attacking Iraqis resisting US occupation.\

      The GOP rushed us into war, we won't be rushed into Monarchy.

      by Will the Organizer on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:40:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unadulterated horseshit. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avila, Mason6883, ivorybill

        This insurgency is made up, in the main, of people who are getting paid to fight.  No different than our own troops, really, when you get down to it.

        Now, the more important question is, who is paying them?  Iran is paying the Badr Brigades.  We know that for a fact.

        The Americans are not running death squads.  For that, you may thank the Iraqis themselves, especially the Ministry of the Interior.  I read the Iraqi papers, and translate them from Arabic, for the enlightnment and edification of Kossacks, not that very many of you bother to read my translations.

        I care about Iraq.  I care enough to believe they deserve freedom from Saddam Hussein, and their new government not only deserves our support, but we owe it to them for the years of tacit support for Saddam Hussein and his psychopathic reign of terror.

        People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

        by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:06:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well (0+ / 0-)
          Are you telling me you honestly think that freedom & democracy is the goal of Bush in Iraq?

          And that this current Iraqi government that deserves our support is about freedom?

          The GOP rushed us into war, we won't be rushed into Monarchy.

          by Will the Organizer on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:10:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  think about it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          When the insurgents fight the Americans they will most likely die, because we respond with overwhelming force.

          The casualty rate for the insurgents is tremendously high.

          You think they're motivated by money?

          You say you read the Iraqi papers, remember how the US pays to plant stories in those papers?

          You think they have a free press in Iraq?

          Iraqis are subject to a tremendous amount of propoganda.

          The GOP rushed us into war, we won't be rushed into Monarchy.

          by Will the Organizer on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:25:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The newspaper I translate (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Avila, ivorybill, Josh or Con or Both

            al-Azzaman is a pretty good picture of Iraq.  I can tell you Saad Al-Bazzaz is a pretty colorful character, and calls them like he sees them.  I can't imagine him taking the King's Shilling to print Happy Talk for the Americans.  Maybe he does,  I dunno.  Met the guy once, he's based in London, where he was driven when he got a gutful of writing under Saddam.  He's a gifted editor, and I'm thinking of helping him do more English translations of stuff.

            Azzaman is the most widely circulated newspaper in Iraq.  It's a gossipy old thing, fast and loose with the facts sometimes, but it's where every Iraqi goes for the facts, first.

            See, I think you're right, we're all subject to waaay too much agitprop when it comes to this war.  On the right, we have the Rumsfeld and the Elliot Abrams (yes, the Iran-Contra felon, now in charge of Middle East Policy under Condi Rice) crowd telling us everything is just wonderfully peachy and we ought to stay the course.  Which is pure-d bullshit, and nobody should take any of that seriously.

            On the other hand, we have bullshit from the left, case in point, this very diary.  As one-sided as the Rumsfeld bullshit.  And just as ill-informed.  We're just not served well as Liberals to shriek and holler too loudly about the liberation of 26 million people, even if it was done for all the wrong reasons.

            And yes, it is all about the money when it comes to the terrorists.  Iraqis are willing to take their chances with the Zarqawi folks, for the same reason poor kids in West Virginia put on a uniform.  You don't really think those kids are there for some Liberation of Iraq campaign?  Shit no.  They're getting paid, they hope they survive the odds.

            If I was in charge of Iraq policy now, I'd tell Bush to get out of the cities and operate a smarter war, in concert with the Iraqis.  But it may well be, and I'm cynical enough to admit it, I'm all wrong here.  I soldiered up in Kurdistan, where things were pretty awful, and the Kurds persecute their own minority, the Turkmen.  But Kurdistan is light years ahead of the rest of Iraq, they had 10 years without being invaded.  Given 10 years, Iraq will be pretty much the same.  But we don't have 10 years to wait around, this war is just too weird, too expensive, and we've already made enough mistakes that we might have screwed up too badly to make any difference on the plus side.

            Sigh.  Long reply.  I just can't stand one-sided polemic.  Iraq is the most complex nation speaking Arabic, Bush could have done what Clinton did in the Balkans, and gotten better results.  Clinton did it without any US casualties, too.  He did it all from the air, as Bush could have done, just make all of Iraq a no-fly zone and make him quit, like we did with old Milosevic.  Too late now.

            People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

            by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:40:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Badr Organization (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          The Badr Organization are Shiite and operate in the south of Iraq. And yes, they have ties with Iran. Are they insurgents if they don't kill Shiites? But then there's the Wolf Brigage or Special Police Commandos, who trains them? What is the "Salvador Option" and why are they using it? Why did Rumsfeld personally had to go to Iraq to make sure it was not disbanded.

          We are killing Sunnis today, north of Baghdad. Who is the enemy again? Your friend today could be your enemy tomorrow.

          •  absolutely they're fucking terrorists (1+ / 1-)
            Recommended by:
            Hidden by:

            ... they're busy murdering innocent Sunnis over the bombing of the Askariya shrine.

            This war against the Sunnis is horribly counterproductive.  We should be on their side against the possibility of Shii hegemony, working with them to get their own leadership issues straightened out.  The war against the Sunnis is Bremer's doing, a man I soldiered with and greatly respect, Jay Garner, would walk around in cities unmolested, telling the Sunni sheikhs, we're leaving when you want us to leave.  Do you really want us to leave now, before Iraq gets on its feet?  And of course, they saw reason, and worked with Garner.

            Rumsfeld would have none of that.  Makes far too much sense, protecting an ethnic and religious minority from the certain retribution ( and well-deserved, too! ) from the Shii, backed by Iran, who had already ruined Lebanon with their Hizb'allah.  Had to put in that fucking idiot Bremer, who didn't speak a word of either Arabic or Kurmanji, who promptly alienated all the Sunni.

            Now let's get this straight.  We don't have enemies in Iraq, well, we do now, because Bush and Rumsfeld have been such morons.  But really, when Saddam was thrown out, all we would have had to do is give every fucking Iraqi a 100 dollar bill, tell 'em goodbye, fi'iman illa'ah and we'd be heroes in the Arab world.  Liberators.

            Now, we're re-created a Lebanon, letting these sectarian feuds govern how the nation is organized.  Guaranteed recipe for disaster.  Didn't learn a fucking thing from the French in Lebanon.

            Makes me sad, it really does.  It enrages me to see idiots like Maryscott saying Americans murder Iraqis.  I saved Iraqi lives, and I was an American soldier.

            So, Liberals, go on bashing this war in Iraq.  Don't listen to what anyone with a clue has to say.  Troll rate me all day long.  Shows your own inability to face the facts, to wit, this situation is a lot more complex than you understand, cause I don't understand it, and I read the Iraqi papers every day.  If the USA pulls out of Iraq, like we did in Lebanon, you're going to get a Green Line right through the whole fucking country, and it will burn right down to the ground, which suits you all just fine, you don't give a fuck about Iraq or what Saddam did to it.  It's more important that Bush lied about this war, than the liberation of 26 million Arabs.

            People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

            by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:57:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  They are not so blind (0+ / 0-)

              As those who will not see.  You seem passionate, but deluded.  Better go check the new testament.  And no more koolaid for you.

              "Life is what happens to you while your busy making other plans." J. Lennon

              by trashablanca on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:11:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  BP (4+ / 0-)

              Blaise, I feel bad for you. Yes you are a warrior, but a warrior who has been used as a pawn. Clearly it is easier to believe country is always right, then to believe some cowardly politician put you into harms way for neither honor nor country.

              think about it BP. You know that the way to fight terrorism is in the shadows. Through use of special forces, CIA, through infiltration of cells, through local intelligence gathering, through cooperation with ally special forces.  YOU simply DO NOT fight a war on terrorism with 100,000 army and national guardsmen in a convential ground war. It is BEYOND STUPID,

              •  Well, of course. This isn't even a fucking war. (5+ / 0-)

                What the hell do you think I was doing over there?  Whistling Dixie and eating falafel?

                It's just a big stupid Shoot Me Please parade waged by Rumsfeld, with American troops going down the road like duckies in the shooting gallery at the County Fair.  Clinton waged his War on Terror, and oh by the way, he got his terrorists, too.   We can win this war but it's going to take as long as the Cold War.

                Most of y'all completely fucking misunderstand me, I'm convinced now, looking at all the trolls I'm picking up.  

                A little history.  Communism, the most significant enemy of freedom in modern times, emerged from feudalism.  The West never went Communist, except in some political parties in Europe and such.  I mean Stalin totalitarianism, you get my drift here.  Trotsky warned the Communists about the likes of Stalin and their idea of what the State would turn into, if Strong Men came to power.

                Well, here's a big secret for ya.  Ba'athism is really fascism.  Yep.  Seriously.  Ba'athism fought for Germany, do you realize the British fought four battles in Iraq during WW2, and the Ba'ath Party murdered and expelled all the Jews in Iraq in 1943? Leaving aside the politics of the State of Israel, who I'm not really fond of either, they oppress their Palestinians, too, but really, can you imagine the largest population of Jews in the world at that time being murdered off or expelled?  You never hear about it here in the West.  The Ba'athists were unpunished Nazis.

                So I have a problem with Ba'athism.  I know my history.  I have a problem with Saddam.  I think he should be hanged.  Not in the shadows, right out in the open, in the courtyard of a jail.  Like we did with the Nazis.

                Hope you don't think a war against fascism is a bad thing.

                Well, in the wake of all these Arab dictators, here's comes Islamism.  It seems to be as natural a follow-on to a few decades of nasty dictatorships, as surely as Communism follows feudalism, and Fascism follows failed economies in Germany and Spain and the Middle East.  Islamism is not only cropping up in Iraq, it's been in Chechnya and the Balkans, and Timor, and hell, it's even cropping up in China.

                So, Islamism is really just a symptom.  If the Middle East didn't have oil, it would be poorer than fucking Africa.  5000 years of constant cultivation have left the place a desert.  A man-made desert.

                Want to cure the problems of the Middle East?  Desalinate its soil, and it will become productive farmland again.  Like Israel.

                The problem lies not in the political stars, but in ourselves.  We have to look beyond these political movements, they all emerge from some fucking crisis or other.  The crisis passes, but the problems remain.

                People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

                by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 04:08:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Agreed Bath party are nazis (0+ / 0-)
                  Saddam emulated Hitler, I know. Tried to invade Kuwait like Hitler invaded Poland, had a dream of pan-arabism.

                  Saddam was a nazi, he should be hung.

                  I agree we should have toppled the regime and given every Iraqi a 100 dollar bill and left. (or something like that)

                  That's the thing I hate most about this war, Bush sold it like it was a liberal endeavour, to free people and thats why so many people supported it, because most people are liberals and want to free people.

                  Reason why I opposed Bush invading was because I knew he was lying about liberating people, that was never the goal.

                  Im sure most of the American soldiers think they are liberating people, and want to liberate people.

                  I wish the American government would go around the world and oppose tyranny whereever it existed, and yes go to war for freedom sometimes.

                  Except the truth is the American military has been used to do quite the opposite, and our leaders don't really want democracy, in fact they hate democracy.

                  Blaise, we want you to be a democrat and we don't demand complete ideological purity, but Ive been reading your diaries and it's like alot of good stuff and then theres some GOP talking points thrown in which sets people off.

                  Mary Scott wasn't being anti-christian and wasn't disrespecting the American military.

                  But when the American military is being used to dominate a nation with military force we can't just keep saying nothing is being done wrong.

                  With all due respect to the military, it is a characteristic of fascist nations when the military is so glorified that it can do no wrong, and anyone in a uniform is good.

                  I guess what I'm saying is we need to have a healthy relationship with the military.

                  The GOP rushed us into war, we won't be rushed into Monarchy.

                  by Will the Organizer on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 04:32:30 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Is the so-called 'liberation' of Iraq worth (0+ / 0-)

              30-40,000 lives???? Who knows how many!  And that is only the present total; where will it end? The US
              prescence there will not stop the civil war that is brewing.  Yes, we do care about lies that brought a war that has sunk one country (Iraq) and is ruining our economy down the road, among other things.
              And yes, Americans have killed Iraqis--it is a fact a war!

            •  Now we're calmer, let me address one point: (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Creosote, Annalize5, BlaiseP

              When I say that "we" have murdered Iraqis, I refer to the "we" that is the United States of America -- specifically, its government. The men who make war, not the ones who fight it.

              My father was killed at Khe Sanh, and I've no doubt he killed a few Vietnamese before his death. Now, while I consider that war to have been just as immoral and illegal, and the government of the United States culpable of mass murder, not only in Vietnam but also Cambodia and Laos... in NO WAY do I consider the soldiers (enlisted OR drafted) who fought that war murderers.

              I consider them pawns in the game of war waged by evil, evil men.

              Just so we're clear: I condemn the MAKERS of war, not those who fight in it. There's certainly a case to be made for holding ourselves -- including the troops -- accountable for our actions or inactions as regards the entire damned mess... But before we start assigning blame to ourselves, I suggest we work from the top down. Those fucktards are a thousand times more guilty than even the lamest of the Englunds and the Calleys, if you get my meaning.

              Christ, I wish I'd held my piece in that first set of kneejerk assholish responses to you. I hold myself responsible for the flame war that followed. Sure, there might have been a flame war anyway -- but the fact is, I'm the one who returned fire when I ought to have simply passed it by.

              My apology AGAIN for all this crapola.


    •  Recommending your comment because... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      greenreflex, curtadams

      ... I have a feeling it might garner some negatives (based on my interpretation of the ebb and flow of the comment thread).

      I like MSOC's writings a great deal, but have not read all of them.  I've not picked up a lot of anti-Christianity (remember my admission to not reading everything...) in her tone; rather, I feel that she's talking about those "Christians" who are so pro-war.  At least, that's what I'm feeling.

      While I've never diaried here, I have commented every now and again, but really not that much, I suppose.  I have commented on the occasional burst of anti-religion or anti-Christianity, or the anti-faith diaries-especially when it's rude (think Bill Maher).

      Again, I've just not seen that from MSOC.  But that's just my $0.02

    •  Organised religion, (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FakeNews, pissedpatriot

      is continually doing a disservice to humanity.  Remove this cloak of rightousness and everyone will get to see the lies of those who say they do good.
      Perhaps it served us well once upon a time but it is just used an excuse now to force certain "values" onto others.
      You don't need a carrot (heaven) or stick (hell) to just be nice your neighbours.

      •  This is what I was talking about above (0+ / 0-)

        The tenets espoused by most all religions are peaceful at their core.

        Unfortunately, there are power-hungry people out there who care not about others who will use religious terms and phrases to co-opt those who are religious to some nefarious end (e.g., hmmm.... oh... say the current administration).

        Are religious people stupid?  I'd hazard a guess that the level of stupidity in religious circles is quite similar to the population as a whole.

        Are religious people mean war-mongerers?  No, but some war-mongers like to claim to be religious.

        This is tricky ground to be treading on.  It's full of nuance.  I am a Christian by faith (Methodist to be exact if that matters to anyone out there).  I disagree vociferously with these pre-meditated acts (I don't buy the pre-emptive angle; to me it's all been pre-meditated).  It pains me to see Christianity being blamed for this, however, I do not fault those who we have bombed, shot, and shocked-and-awed for their views.  After all our leaders here sell this country as a Christian nation, run by a man of God (boy those last three words hurt to type).  But I've argued in other threads that we need to be careful how we paint religion, Christianity, and those who have deep and abiding faith of we risk alienating them.  To say that organized religion is "continually" doing a disservice is something akin to claiming that those who question the war(s) are traitors and hate their country.  It's a gross overstatement meant to do nothing but polarize people.  And right about now, I figure we're polarized enough in this country.  

        I know it's been a while since Katrina, but if my memory serves me correctly (and sometimes it does not), I kind of remember that the churches in the affected areas were about the only vehicles of help for a period of time.  Churches can do good, and do do good every day of the year.  People of faith do good things every day.  As do, of course, those who claim no particular faith.  And, so do people of faith (and people who claim no particular faith) commit atrocities all the time.

        I'd just rather that we stay away from gross gerneralizations.

    •  You can't fix the whole world (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      If everybody keeps their own corner clean the world will be a much nicer place.  We can't stop the Iraqis from attacking each  other now (although we could have if we had just stayed out).  But we can stop the US military from slaughtering civilians who  live in an area suspected (choke) of having insurgents who overwhelmingly only want us to leave.  MSOC is doing her best to stop that, and she's doing good.

      You can condemn Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence and you'll be supported here.  But it won't do much good because we have no influence on them.  It's just lip-flapping.  MSOC isn't just condemning injustice, she's using her condemnation in a way that will help stop it.  That's the height of morality.

    •  I considered Troll rating you (8+ / 0-)

      But I decided it was my non-Xtian Xtian duty to confront you instead.

      I'm simply awed by your powers of deduction, from researching one picture in MSOC's diary and finding it to be from a story about the an insurgent bombing instead of one of the Coalition's (multiple) friendly-fire free-for-alls, you were able to expose MSOC for the Lying Bitch™ that she obviously is.</snark>


      With that level of mental power, you should be working for Bushco, I'm sure they could use you in the Global Warming area.

      When I must guard my thoughts, feelings and words, lest I be unpatriotic...then my country is lost

      by crimsonscare on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:53:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Should I do some more detective work? (0+ / 0-)

        Wonder what I'll find.

        I've worked for every president from Nixon to Clinton.  I soldiered for this country.  I speak Arabic and Kurmanji, and I've been in Iraq.  Not everyone who tells another side about this war is pro-Bush.  I am no fan of the man, he's the AWOL Aviator, and isn't fit to polish my boots.  He's a lying sack of shit who can't delegate the war to the military, as Clinton did in the Balkans.  He's led by amoral toadies.

        I suppose I should return the favour:  in fact, I will.  You hate the Iraqis, and do not care who kills them, or why.  You think they're stupid people who don't value their freedom and certainly deserve none.  How's that, crimson?  Enjoyed that?  No more a troll than your post.

        People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

        by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:11:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  there (5+ / 0-)

          there is a reason that at least a third of those warriors coming back from the theatre have mental problems. What they are simply being asked to do for country is unholy and destroys ones soul. Nam was the same.

          Best of luck to you. I hope you have a great support system.

        •  I'm a troll, you're a troll (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          drsmith131, Ari Mistral, trashablanca

          Wouldn't you like to be a troll, too!

          Wow, pedantic and juvenile.

          In order:
          Yes, because it would at least be more empirically proper.  At least better than you previous ad hominem attack on MSOC.

          Thanks for your CV.  I'm in my place, cowering, really.  Should I begin kissing you ass now?

          Hate the Iraqi's...No (but mostly because they didn't give me a reason to, my buddys have survived, so far).  Don't care who kills them...No (and that would be US by the way).  Stupid people, don't deserve freedom...No(but I also don't believe that dwmocracy spreads one bullet/bomb at a time)

          Enjoy, I just pity you.

          When I must guard my thoughts, feelings and words, lest I be unpatriotic...then my country is lost

          by crimsonscare on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:38:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Vicarious outrage: the safe and moral way. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theboz, crimsonscare, trashablanca
      If Iraqis bomb other Iraqis it is a horrible thing. But it is the Iraqis problem to deal with it. Just like Saddam was their problem to deal with, not our problem through some sort of vicarious responsiblity. When foreign fighters bomb Iraqis it too is universally understood as horrible; but there is nothing we can say about it that will change things.

      However, when our government is doing the bombing and the killing as it has been for the past three years to the people of Iraq, then it is our responsibility to speak out because we put these psychopaths in the position of power they are in today.

      On Zarqawi. Isn't he the one that the Bush regime deliberately held off on taking before the war so that his presence would help their claim of terrorists being in Iraq? Chalk up another one for the Bush team. Like a policeman letting the slaughter of a family happen so that he would be justified in asking for more deputies to the city council. Isn't Zarqawi the guy who was cutting off heads a year ago? I never understood why the surviving families didn't take out a class action suit against the Bush regime for letting this guy go when the had the chance to take him.

      On the foreign fighters in Iraq today. They're there because our boys in Washington opened this theatre of operations for them.

      And then 2/27/33 happened, and that changed everything.

      by Julian on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:10:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Heh, heh. (2+ / 3-)
        Recommended by:
        Avila, ivorybill
        Hidden by:
        musing85, theboz, wiscmass

        As I tell my children, any phrase followed by a but is a denial.  You have failed to attribute guilt to the people who murdered the people in that picture.  I am a bit of a stickler for the truth in these things, you clearly are a bit confused, morally.

        As for Zarqawi, his type were being murdered by Saddam, long before we got there.  Saddam murdered off the Wahhabi marabouts as he detected them in his country.

        As for the policeman, letting a family get slaughtered, you are that policeman.  You don't care that Saddam murdered all those Kurds, indeed you're arguing our war against Saddam was illegal.  Sounds to me like you want to release a genocidal murder on his own recognizance.  Of course you do.  You really want to get someone else elected, which is all fine and good, I don't like Bush a bit more than you do, but I care enough about the truth to point out a murder did occur, and you clearly don't care about it.

        People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

        by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:06:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  hahaha (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theboz, trashablanca

          man talk about being delusional. Ok we are that policeman to pick up where you left off. Now we are the ones raping , torturing, and killing innocent people by the tens of thousands.  You want truth? there's your truth.

          Personally I could do without a policeman that wrecks my house, tortures my family, and kills my people.

          •  Um, nah. We're not the policemen (0+ / 0-)

            We're the soldiers.  Big fucking difference, effendi.  The dead Iraqis being murdered by the Zarqawis and the rest of that scum, nobody should shoot them.  Is that your line?

            People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

            by BlaiseP on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:07:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Back to Civics Class For You, BlaiseP (4+ / 0-)

          Of which nation are you a citizen?  Iraq?  Bzzzt!  The Grand Fellowship of All Humanity?  Bzzzt!

          No, you and I are citizens of the U.S. That means that our first responsibility is to look after the direct actions of our own government.  We have no obligation to police the world; more importantly, we have no right to do so.  The Iraqis did not elect us their policemen.  They did not even throw open the gate for us.  

          You are so hyperfocused on your desire (which comes from a good place in your heart, don't get me wrong) to prevent local violence that you can't see that this kind of pre-emption is itself a form of large-scale systematic violence much worse than what it claims (but fails) to prevent.

          As Americans, let's address America's role in this mess, not go looking for more messes to make in other people's homelands.


      Are you fucking insane, or just illiterate?

      This diary is not a rude treatment of Christianity. It is a rude treatment of the heretical, lying, evil bastards USING the cover of Christianity to behave in ways that Christ himself would find REPULSIVE.

      These men are not CHRISTIANS, for god's sake. They are FALSE Christians.

      HOW you can possibly see an ATTACK on Christianity in this diary is simply beyond me.

      I used the pictures I have used before. I don't CARE who did the bombing and the shotting, man -- LOOK AT THOSE CHILDREN. You cannot POSSIBLY think that we haven't wreaked EXACTLY that kind of damage and worse on Iraqi children for the past 3 years???

      Dude, I don't CARE which fucking side did the damage in these particular pictures: the damage was DONE UNDER OUR WATCH.

      WE DID THIS.


      Baldfaced hypocrisy?

      FUCK YOU, JACK. You seem a helluva lot more interested in providing cover for the Bush Regime here than in anything else.

      You fucking stooge.

    •  Civil War was a predicted and predictable outcome (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Certainly, there is a difference between killing someone directly and causing an atmosphere in which killing happens.  However, when you unleash war on a region you bear accountability for all the havoc that you have wraught.

    •  you have so much waking up to do it hurts (3+ / 0-)

      First and foremost (I troll-rated you, then decided instead to make a point of you), why don't you just start your own diary?  Who do you think you are, a prophet here?  No one has use for your lies.

      Because the Bush family has been arming both sides for generations now.  Better scratch deeper.  Saddam is nothing but their runaway Frankenstein, quite a money maker for them as the US public get soaked down now twice (first to build him up to play Cold War with Russia, now to cry "help!  Help!  Our Frankenstein's gone amok!).  Ditto Osama Bin Forgotten.

      Just for starters, both Bush's paternal and maternal grandfathers (prescott bush, george walker) heavily financed the Nazis through Brown Harriman, and had assets seized after the war.  I won't submit a link to the unauthorized biography of George Bush (41), instead why don't you read the more "republican" version by Nixon man Kevin Phillips, American Dynasty.  Learn something.

      George Bush is heir to a blind trust gotten from proceeds of the steel mill manned by slave labor from Auschwitz.  As a Christian he needs, at a minimum, to repent of living off of Nazi blood money.

      They didn't finance the Nazis lightly.  Can't resist, check this out.  They, speaking in terms of money, WERE the Nazis.  German paper was worthless, they had to get it from someone.  It can be argued that the third Reich did not fall, but changed identities and emmigrated to wall street.

      The same "Brown" is part of Kellogg, Brown and Root who merged with Halliburton.

      A lot of "Christians" need to follow the money and find out just WHOM they really advocate in this man Bush.  Man, voices like yours are surely a metaphorical crown of thorns to Jesus.  Thorns, because you are all about riches and the defense of them, aren't you?

      nostalgia isn't what it used to be

      by stonemason on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:29:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I thought we couldn't win militarily? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    drofx, trashablanca

    Rumsfeld, Gen. Pace and others just spoke of not being able to win militarily. So this is gratuitous bombing ! Criminals. Where's the oppostion in Congress? They are complict. If Congress isn't part of the solution then they are part of the problem also. Did Rove suggest the bombimg to point out the lack of choice in the Nov.2006 elections?

  •  Operation Swarmer? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crimsonscare, trashablanca, Lashe

    Sorry, Pentafucks, that really doesn't roll off the tongue.

  •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trashablanca, Lashe

    Wish I could triple recommend.  What a fantastic and moving demonstration of how unchristian the neocons are.

  •  There is only one justification for war.That is (10+ / 0-)

    if the alternative is worse. Some call World War II a "good war". It killed and maimed more people than any war in history. The only reasonable justification for it was the alternative was worse. Those who supported this war in Iraq have a lot to answer for. They taken down a situation that was terrible and somehow made it worse. Hard to do but they did it

    "For some reason Iraq is worth soldiers dying, but not worth rich people paying taxes."

    by Jlukes on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:43:15 PM PST

    •  It could easily be argued.. (0+ / 0-)

      that the alternatives for not invading were worse. Iraq would continue to be a state in horrid proverty because of the sanctions. The people would continue to be living in constanst fear of Saddams secret police and torture centers,as well as being forced fed a diet of spirit crushing propaganda. The only money going in would be enrich Saddam and his network of oppression. After his death we could look forward to one of three things: another Hussein dictatorship led by Uday or Qusay (who were much more sociopathic than Saddam), a civil war between the three sects that would make the current bloodshed pale in comparsion, or attempts by the stronger neighbors (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey) to take control of the failed state. All three are pretty grim. Everyone rational person wants the bloodshed in Iraq to stop. Everyone rational person wants Iraqi self determination. But there are fanatics and nihilist who will do everything in their power to see that that doesn't happen. They must be stopped. Think that can happen without death? Then you're irresponsible and ahistorical.

      •  if what you said was true, you would be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        correct. Saddam was sleeping in a different place every night. There is no telling how long berfore he would have lasted. When he did go there would be what is going on now. A civil war. The difference is that we would not have lost 2500 kids, 20000 wounded and maimed,and God only knows how many Iraqis killed and maimed. Also we would have had 400 billion dollars(so far) to spend on things that build us up. You seem to think that Iraq under Saddamm was as bad as it is now. That tells me that you have not talked to many Iraqis. Make no mistake, the invasion of Iraq is easily one of the worst policy disasters ever. The people who supported and especially those that planned and executed this policy should be driven from public office for they are stupid.

        "For some reason Iraq is worth soldiers dying, but not worth rich people paying taxes."

        by Jlukes on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:02:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Constructive dialog.. (0+ / 0-)

          That tells me that you have not talked to many Iraqis.

          Do you have links for these Iraqis? I'm not trying to be snide here I really am curious. I try to keep up with the Iraqi opinion through blogs (Riverbend, Iraq the Model, A Family from Mosul) as well as their newspapers.  If you have any other sources I would be interested in reading them.

          •  I too have seen the blogs. I have also seen (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Maryscott OConnor

            the polls of Iraqis that want us to leave. I have also seen the pictures of Abu greb. I also know from my experience from Vietnam that it is very likely that is only the tip of the iceberg. Those who believe this in war are same sort of people(the swift boaters come to mind) are so out of touch with reality that it is really hard to have dialog with them. There is a difference between Power and force. People who believe in power believe that you build a society that others envy and want to emulate. We spend our treasure and our childrenâ€TMs lives on building and not destroying. People who believe in force succumb to the same insanity as those who they say that they oppose. When we invaded Iraq only the management changed. The people are still in hell.

            "For some reason Iraq is worth soldiers dying, but not worth rich people paying taxes."

            by Jlukes on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:59:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  Brilliant (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hoolia, drofx, Lashe, Wbythebay

    How can we get this juxtaposition of words and images in front of every wingnut everywhere? I'd contribute for an ad buy in some major daily. Can you imagine this on a two-page spread in the NYT or even the Wall Street Journal?!

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mohandas Gandhi

    by trueblue illinois on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:43:52 PM PST

  •  May the Gods Help Me, But I Truly Believe (8+ / 0-)

    that this massive air strike is just a diversion to cover the fact that there are bombing raids going on over the border into Iran.

    Just as I believe that the 700 troops transferred from Kuwait a couple of days ago, to provide "additional security in Iraq," according to Rumsfeld, are probably special forces troops infiltrating Iran at the border from Iraq.

    Why am I so paranoid.  Really?

    Why isn't it bad enough news to believe that we are bombing the hell out of Iraq?

    Why am I supersizing the danger and destruction in my head this way?

    I'm a housewife.  I don't know any military planning or strategy.  I drive my kids around, make beds, do dishes, read the news, and think these terrible, terrible thoughts.

    I hope it's just me.  I hope I'm just a little dimwitted with despair.

    "I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror." - SLAVOJ ZIZEK

    by Patricia Taylor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:46:11 PM PST

    •  You are not alone (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jimreyn, trashablanca

      I too have the terrible. terrible thoughts, Patricia. Hug your babies and hang on.

    •  Hey paranoid: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:


      Evil prevails only when good men do nothing

      by Mason6883 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:06:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Perhaps. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sockpuppet, trashablanca

        This is what the NY Times is saying.

        Most of the aircraft being deployed are Black Hawk, Chinook and Apache helicopters that are being used for transport and air cover, said Lt. Col. Edward Loomis, a spokesman for the 101st Airborne. The colonel did not specify whether aircraft were engaged in airstrikes involving the use of missiles and bombs. The operation is expected to continue for several days.

        "I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror." - SLAVOJ ZIZEK

        by Patricia Taylor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:22:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I was on a (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Patricia Taylor, sockpuppet

          mission just like this one last Oct, and I can say with certainty that it is not a bombing mission.

          Evil prevails only when good men do nothing

          by Mason6883 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:27:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm glad. (0+ / 0-)

            I hope you are correct.

            I'm glad you're back.

            "I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror." - SLAVOJ ZIZEK

            by Patricia Taylor on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:59:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Then what is it? (0+ / 0-)

            I'm so confused.  Sad, and confused.

            •  There's Back and Forth Here and Other Places (0+ / 0-)

              about the idea that what is going on in our name in Iraq over the next few days isn't such a big deal because it's an air ASSAULT (which includes moving arms, armament, vehicles, and ground personnel and may include shooting from airborne vehicles to cover troops or bombing) rather than an air STRIKE (which is bombing).

              The implication, as far as I can tell, is that the government announced an air assault, and the media and we critics are advertising it as a strike.

              What the NY Times seems to have indicated is that air strikes may (or may not, the military won't say) be part of this larger campaign of air assault, which may include men, weapons, and vehicles transported in the largest action since the invasion, gathered and acting in one large area north of Baghdad.

              The message of the thread, as I see it (which opposes U.S. military actions in Iraq because they are hurting children) is being picked apart by people who'd quibble over whether air assaults are less deadly than air strikes, or that the message is invalidated because MSOC and others, including me, don't know the difference between military assault or bombing the shit out of people.

              I don't think our inexperience with military arsenals invalidates our very human observation that what we are doing in Iraq is hurting a lot of civilians, including innocent children.

              Today (a day after this thread was posted), the LA Times reports this on what we are doing in Iraq -

              Residents of the area, northeast of Samarra, said they heard large explosions in the distance after troops, helicopters and armored vehicles swooped in. They said the operation was concentrated around four villages that have harbored insurgent followers of Jordanian militant Abu Musab Zarqawi, whose Al Qaeda-affiliated organization has been blamed by U.S. and Iraqi officials for the Feb. 22 bombing of the Golden Mosque.

              "I do it because if I did not, I could not look at myself in the mirror." - SLAVOJ ZIZEK

              by Patricia Taylor on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 01:48:48 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  Bombs (6+ / 0-)

    It may be the case that the level of bombing today is not as great as other operations, but the fact is that we're bombing on a regular basis.  According Seymour Hersch, the air campaign is expanding in Iraq. (The New Yorker)

    The following is in regard to Falluja:

    One insight into the scope of the bombing in Iraq was supplied by the Marine Corps during the height of the siege of Falluja in the fall of 2004. â€oeWith a massive Marine air and ground offensive under way,” a Marine press release said, â€oeMarine close air support continues to put high-tech steel on target. . . . Flying missions day and night for weeks, the fixed wing aircraft of the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing are ensuring battlefield success on the front line.” Since the beginning of the war, the press release said, the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing alone had dropped more than five hundred thousand tons of ordnance. â€oeThis number is likely to be much higher by the end of operations,” Major Mike Sexton said. In the battle for the city, more than seven hundred Americans were killed or wounded; U.S. officials did not release estimates of civilian dead, but press reports at the time told of women and children killed in the bombardments. (emphasis mine)

    A fool and his liberty are soon parted. [-8.38,-6.15]

    by Jeff G on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:46:50 PM PST

  •  I am (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trashablanca, mango

    I am once again ashamed to be an american.

    MSOC keep up the good fight because heaven knows the good is being far outpaced by the evil these days.

    I don't know how these fuckers sleep at night.

  •  one of my friends (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deepfish, imabluemerkin

    is an amazing artist - he drew this one picture of jesus riding in atop a tank turret, making a peace sign.  with "WWJD" written across the tank treads.

    it was his most popular t-shirt design.

    speak out to Save Our Public Lands - the deadline is March 30.

    by Cedwyn on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:48:31 PM PST

  •  Mary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    As much as I love your posts and find them full of pathos and universal truth. I am going to risk the wrath in asking that you do one of two things:

    1. Use photos from this week's operation.
    1. Disclose that the images we are looking at are from operations occuring over a long period.

    [ Anyone who thinks my bark is worse than my bite, has never seen me bite. ] -6.63 | -5.38

    by dj angst on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:48:36 PM PST

  •  Think for just a minute: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Insurgents (terrorists mostly from Iran and Syria) are murdering inocent Iraqi men, women and children...repeat...inocent people. The U.S. Military and the Iraqi Military are being flown by helicopter into an insurgent infested area in order to clean the murderers out. Do we prefer the insurgents to continue murdering people?....or do we prefer the insurgents be delt with? Think about it.

    •  OH Please (9+ / 0-)

      OH please stop drinking the kool aid. Insurgent is just a label given to a dead Iraqi. You want to know who are murdering innocent Iraqi men women and children? WE ARE.

      We've killed and/or maimed several hundred thousand of them.

      If the US really cared about rooting out the real terrorist there is only one way to do that. Shadow Ops. A small attachment of special forces spend time and energy gaining local trust and intelligence and they take out these nest in small firefights that noone ever hears about.

      Bombing "insurgents" is about as stupid as it gets. All these bombs do is create more "insurgents" with every innocent person they kill.  Kill an innocent kid, now you just made his dad, brothers, mother, brothers, cousins, hate your fucking guts and rightfully so.

      So please, step away from the pitcher

    •  Um, where's your proof? (3+ / 0-)

      Everything I've read is that it is a civil war, Sunni v Shiite Iraqis.  Less than 10 percent foreign.  Fuck bush to the sewers of Hell.

      "Life is what happens to you while your busy making other plans." J. Lennon

      by trashablanca on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:58:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Think for a minute... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hopscotch1997, trashablanca

      Then regurgitate Repub talking points about the operation.

      When I must guard my thoughts, feelings and words, lest I be unpatriotic...then my country is lost

      by crimsonscare on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:00:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  confused about the term 'insurgent' (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maryscott OConnor, trashablanca

      Hi pere

      I've actually come across your thinking quite a bit, and it's usually because there's a confusion about the meaning of insurgent. You see, it doesn't mean terrorist. Although, in the US, that's the connotation that the traditional media and the administration have given it.

      Every time I've come across this confusion before, it helps a lot to go look up the meaning of the word Insurgent:

      n 1: a person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving conditions) [syn: insurrectionist, freedom fighter, rebel] 2: a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla, guerilla, irregular]

      So tell me, now that you understand the term insurgent... what exactly do insurgents do? I'm confident that you won't be able to reply "murdering people".

      •  And under that definition (5+ / 0-)

        the Founding Fathers were "insurgents" in the eyes of the British government.

        And what's the difference between the "insurgents" in Iraq and the "freedom fighters" of El Salvador in Reagan's era? Well, the "freedom fighters" were (allegedly) on our side.

        It's like in hockey:

        Enforcer: a goon who plays for your team

        Goon: an enforcer who plays on your opponent's team

        It's all a matter of perspective...

        "It's an unnerving thought that we may be the living universe's supreme achievement and its worst nightmare simultaneously." -- Bill Bryson

        by Cali Scribe on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:09:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  From your definition... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        IKIA can't reasonably include innocent muslim men, women and children as part of a "constituted authority". Nor can you reaonably include innocent muslim men, women and children as "a stronger force". Whether they be termed "terrorists" or "insurgents" or "freedom fighters", or what ever name you wish to call them, they are deliberately killing innocent men, women and children. Thats a fact.

        •  I almost completely agree with you (0+ / 0-)

          I am almost in complete agreement. No insurgency is every completely pure. Cali Scribe right above makes a good point about even the American revolution... I'm under no impression that the gaining the freedom of our country was done on the American's side without any bloodshed, by the Americans, of innocent men, women, and children.

          Where I disagree with you is the use of "deliberately killing". I don't think the insurgent's intention is to kill. The intention is to gain freedom. The killing is collateral damage. So yes, both sides are equally reprehensible, and both sides equally twisting religion to justify their the means to their end. That's what I believe. That's fundalmentally why war is bad, why conflict is evil. Because the good in it is so arbitrary.

          So the question I'd like to ask you now is who do you think bears a greater responsibility for the cyclic killings? The ones who have the power, or the ones who are being exploited? Or maybe there's a better question to ask to figure this out... what would you ask to try and figure out where to place the greater share of blame for the outrage of the killing of innocents?

          •  Whos Responsible? (0+ / 0-)

            We could debate the answer to that one all the way back to Adam and Eve. Was Eve responsible? Were the crusades responsible? Was Great Britian responsible? Is America responsible? Are the Jews responsible? Is fundamentalist Islam responsible? Are we all responsible in some fashion?

            You stated that the American Revolution was not completely pure in preventing "the killing of innocents". Your correct. And you ask "where to place the greater share of blame" for the killing of innocents today. I'm not sure placing blame is the answer. Instead, I prefer to find a solution to the problem. Placing blame doesn't make us go forward. It only satisfies hatred. That's what I believe. That's fundamentally why hatred is so destructive.

            •  Exactly! (0+ / 0-)

              pere, thanks for being willing to discuss this. By this post you've pretty much shown that you agree with what everyone else is saying.
              Hopefully now you can see why the way you phrased your original post had so many people lash back in reply in negative tones.
              I think we've all agree with everything you've said above. So instead of talking about blame, let's talk about responsibility. People here get angry at insurgents being murdered because yes, as an American, you and me both are responsible for those deaths. So we get angry, and that's what this whole diary is about. Your original posts comes across as abdicating all responsibility for the part you bear in these murders, and instead pointing fingers at the Iraqis (NOT Syrians and Iranians who would be called terrorists vs. insurgents).

              •  Anger won't solve... (0+ / 0-)

                Anger won't solve the problem.
                People "lashing back in negative tones" won't solve the problem.
                "...we get angry, and that's what this whole diary is about."...won't solve the problem.
                Pissing, moaning and complaining won't solve the problem.
                So,let's stop "...talking about blame..." and try to solve the problem.
                I'm searching for solutions.
                Now that we're in Iraq, does anyone have any reasonable solutions to offer?

    •  Think about this (3+ / 0-)
      Who is framing what happenin over there in terms of terrorists from iran and syria are murdering innocent American occupation LOVING Iraqis?

      The same people who told you all the other lies about Iraq.

      That whole way of looking at things comes from war propoganda. A lot of people think the propoganda stopped after we went into Iraq. Its still in full force.

      The GOP rushed us into war, we won't be rushed into Monarchy.

      by Will the Organizer on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:06:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  the insurgents are Iraqis (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kaya, imabluemerkin
      Get your facts straight.

      Almost none of them are from outside Iraq.  

      This has been studied and proven repeatedly.

      Turn off the FOX news.  They lie.

      "Letting a Republican govern is like letting a pedophile babysit"

      by Nordic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:30:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  How many insurgents would there be (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rogun, Wbythebay

      if we'd stayed home?

      And now there is an endless supply in a land we cannot secure.

      Think about it.

      (-6.75, -6.24) George W. Bush deserves a fair trial.

      by CJB on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:34:49 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good point.... (0+ / 0-)

        ....but now that we're there, what's the solution?

        •  We don't know. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          But ask George Bush.  He might know.  It's his responsibility.  He insisted on it.  

          •  Your favorite congressman... (0+ / 0-)

            If you wrote your favorite congressman today, what would you suggest be done about Irag from this point forward?

            •  We need to get out as soon as possible. (0+ / 0-)

              I used to think that if we did things might go downhill, we wouldn't be there to protect them from each other, etc. etc.  It is now obvious we aren't protecting them from each other, from a civil war or anything else.  Things continue to go downhill with us there.  We have to admit that the US is not the saviour we think we are or have always felt we are.  It is utter chaos and we have no direction in mind.  I would tell my congressman we have to get out.  We lost Viet Nam.  We should accept that we aren't going to do any good here, either.

              •  Candid... (0+ / 0-)

                Thank you for being candid...I fully respect your opinion.

                Getting "out as soon as possible" could mean:
                a.) immediately (as soon as we can ship out the troops and equipment)regardless of the consequence to Iraq or the region, or it could mean:

                b.) as soon as Iraq is able to stand on it's own; or it could mean:

                c.) somewhere an as yet unseen scenario.

                If at the end of W.W.II we had departed Germany under scenario "a", I believe that instability, chaos and a Soviet takeover of the entire country would have resulted.

                The fact that we departed Germany under scenario "b", resulted in a democratic Germany able to stand on it's own.

                I fear scenario "a" in Iraq will result in chaos with an Iranian takeover.

                Is the Iraqi situation good today?...No. Was the German situation good at the end of WWII?...No. But we stayed the course and a strong Germany is the result.

                I believe that just because the situation is bad, it is no reason to depart "as soon as possible".

                If I had left my bad situation dictate a departure, I would not have completed university, nor gone on to receive postgraduate degrees.

                If I had left cancer dictate my departure from this life, and not fight it every step of the way, I would not have enjoyed the miracle of grandchildren.

                Choices confront us daily...making the right choice is sometimes difficult.

        •  Isn't that your job? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Didn't you want to go to war with Iraq? If so, then why are you asking people here -- people who have been against the war from the start -- what to do next? We tried to warn you ahead of time, so don't come around here blaming us for not having a solution to your problematic creation.

          Can you now see why we didn't want to go to war?

          Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

          by rogun on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 11:37:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Going to war... (0+ / 0-)

            Did I want to go to war with Iraq?...No. I'm asking people because I want to see some thoughtful diaglog about what we should do from this point.

            •  From your comments (0+ / 0-)

              you obviously support those who started the war and you obviously support their ideology as well, so it's all the same whether you're telling the truth or not.

              Since you're here to cause trouble, how about being productive instead and give us your solution? Certainly you're not going to tell me that you don't have a solution for the problem you helped create, are you?

              Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

              by rogun on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:04:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  rogun's comments (0+ / 0-)

                Rogun....Thanks for your comments. My reply may be found in the post, subject "Candid"; it's the 4th post in the string above. Thanks, Pere

                •  I read your answer (0+ / 0-)

                  and I agree with your analysis of the problem you helped create, but I don't necessarily agree with your conclusion.

                  If not for Iran -- which I don't believe would be the problem they are today, if Bush had not provoked them first -- I don't see how there coud be any other answer than pulling out immediately. Our current presence is doing nothing but delay the future of Iraq as a sovereign state. We should concede authority to the UN and provide support without demanding a controlling role (afterall, we're pushing our problem off onto them, so it's the least we can do, and we've already tried it our way anyhow.) The UN may do little and it may be no more sucessful than we have been, but it will have a better chance as an international effort where the war of words will finally have an official arena.

                  It's not going to be pretty though. We messed up the minute we invaded Iraq and the only question concerning it's future now is how do we create a successful and stable Iraq in the shortest period of time, with the fewest loss of lives. By staying put we're only delaying the final outcome, while making it more difficult for the future and losing innocent lives in the process. Our great military power can't win ideological wars anymore than Stalin's did in the USSR.

                  Unfortunately, the military buildup in Iran throws a kink into the problem (Is this surprising? Bush labels them a member of the Axis of Evil and then installs a great military force across their border.) A unilateral invasion of Iran would put us in a situation that's worse than Vietnam. With full UN support, we may have a chance diplomatically and/or militarily to make a difference while still in our current position, but that's wishful hoping and the current administration hasn't shown that it's capable of working with others to successfully accomplish a goal. Because of this, my position doesn't change when adding Iran into the equation.

                  Finally, your analogies are a sham. The ideological war in post-war Germany was quickly defeated, but it's only getting worse in Iraq. And as for your struggles while gaining your education (btw, I find that a distasteful analogy when people are dying for their struggles in Iraq), did you sacrifice your children? Did you spill even a single drop of blood for your degree?

                  Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

                  by rogun on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 02:43:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks for your thoughts.... (0+ / 0-)

                    Hello Rogun: Unfortunately neither of us can foretell the future. History will provide the ultimate answer to our questions and concerns. We may or may not see our suggestions come to fruition. I for one am in my seventies, and may not be around to witness what happens with Iraq and Iran. I guess you are younger, and you may have the opportunity to see your ideas come to light. I'm sorry you find my struggles to be a distasteful was not intended to be construed harmfully. I received my medical degree in 1955. The U.S. Navy paid for my schooling, and since I hade no money for college, I contracted to serve to pay my tuition. It turned out I served 20 years in the Navy, including 3 tours in Vietnam, where in addition to my regular duties, I performed facial plastic surgery to correct birth defects of local Vietnamese children. My son died in a swimming accident while serving in the Marines in Saigon in 1974. I retired from my private practice 10 years ago when I was diagnosed with cancer. My wife and I now enjoy each day to the fullest, and our many grandchildren. I was a big fan of John F. Kennedy, and always thought the most poetic quote was: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but rather ask what you can do for your country." Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts, Rogun. All the best to you, Pere

                    •  That's great Pere! (0+ / 0-)

                      But what does it have to do with your solution for Iran? Shall I introduce myself to you now and proceed to tell you my life story? Perhaps we should get together to play some croquet and sip some tea? I'm sure our soldiers won't mind.

                      Democrats -- Progress for the Working Class

                      by rogun on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 05:06:56 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A Life Story (0+ / 0-)

                        Sorry to offend, inquired about what I had done for my country or whether my children had spilled blood....I was only responding to what I presumed was genuine interest...obviously I was had no were only trying to goad me into your bottomless pit of hatred for all things opposite your sycophant philosphy of socialistic politics. Maybe you should introduce yourself and tell your life might make me appreciate the finer points of Rogun...the finer points are currently obscured by your hard left views...Tea and croquet don't appeal to me, but I'm sure the soldiers of your local National Guard unit would be happy to provide you with a tour of their facilities if you showed might find it enlightening. If you wish to further this dialog with me, I'm more than happy that I have finally recognized you for what you are, it would give me great pleasure to continue to act as your opposite. Or if you wish, we can end the correspondence now....whatever you wish is fine with me....although I doubt you'll be able to let go...this give and take with me must be like injecting acid to you.  Your faithful servant, Pere.

  •  Bizarrely, 'Bombs Away' by the Police (0+ / 0-)

    Was the first song to play at random on my MP3 player this morning on the way to work.  Oh well, they did name one of their albums "Synchronicity".

    The general scratches his belly and thinks
    His pay is good but his officers stink
    Guerilla girl, hard and sweet
    A military man would love to meet
    The President looks in the mirror and speaks
    His shirts are clean but his country reeks
    Unpaid bills, in Afghanistan hills

    Bombs away
    But we're O.K.
    Bombs away
    In old Bombay

    The general only wants to teach France to dance
    His army life doesn't give him any romance
    Guerilla girl, hard and sweet
    A military man would love to meet
    The general scratches his belly and thinks
    His pay is good but his company stinks
    Guerilla girl, hard and sweet
    A military man would love to meet

    Bombs away
    But we're O.K.

    Rumsfeld, he needs to be hit on the head. --Baghdad Bob

    by Jimmy Jazz on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 12:59:54 PM PST

  •  She's Six Months Today (9+ / 0-)
    Six Months Today

    With their rants and their rage,
    They cheer as the bombs,
    Drop in firework patterns
    On the children and homes.

    The jets make a pass,
    Drop bomb clusters galore,
    One fell through a window
    And rolled cross the floor.

    She's six months today,
    Just started crawling around,
    When she spotted that ball
    That came in with no sound.

    Nimble as a cat
    She crawled to this toy,
    All shiny and sparkling
    Just waiting so coy.

    She pushed to sit up
    Next to the shiny new ball,
    Reached out little fingers
    To examine it all.

    What evil was waiting
    At the touch of her breath,
    To blow off her arms
    Bringing this innocent death.

    One second in time,
    Tore this baby asunder,
    What God gave her mother,
    George took in his blunder.

    Heartbreaking diary MSOC.

    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

    by bronte17 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:09:11 PM PST

  •  Ashamed to be an American (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I really used to respect our structure of govt. and broad aspects of our political culture - the separation of powers, the constitutional guarantee of individual rights, the constitutional status accorded to Senate-ratified treaties, such as the UN Charter and Geneva Conventions), a country founded on concepts of rights and liberties and not on concepts of blood and soil, our successful integration of immigrant groups.

    But none of that could military-corporate complex of which the bush fascists are merely the current expression.

    As for our military, it has approximately the same relationship to freedom as metastatic cancer has to a human body.   Its legitimate self-defense activities are miniscule in comparison to its illegitimate terroristic and imperial activities.  And as for our troops...voluntary enlistees all, they wear a uniform of disgrace.  

    "Overgrown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty." George Washington, 1796.

    by acquittal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:13:07 PM PST

  •  Eye for an Eye (0+ / 0-)

    An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

    According to Jimmy Carter (Our Endangered Values) this has always been misinterpreted. It was meant to be a limitation. In other words, do not take out MORE than an eye for an eye.

    'Course, I don't think the Bible is the place to go for inspiration for peace anyway. Full of vengence and violence. God teaches us that the way to deal with your enemies is to smite them down. But that's just my opinion.

  •  I hate to say it (3+ / 0-)

    But war is practically a Christian commandment.  With the exception of the modern-day Quakers, Mennonites, and Amish, Christianity hasn't been a pacifist religion since roughly year 100.

    How can I make this claim?


    Christianity very early on became the state religion f the Roman Empire.

    The Roman Empire maintained itself through war.

    The religion had to not only tolerate but embrace the warring empire.

    This pattern has been repeated throughout the last 2000 years with nation after holy Christian nation.

    It's a nice platitude, but all the turn-the-other cheek stuff is crap.  "What would Jesus bomb" is one of the truest reflections of Christianity today.  Note that I say "of Christianity today," and not "of Jesus's teachings"; they're too totally different things, and have been almost entirely unrelated for most of 2000 years.

    •  People haven't been pacifists since the beginning (0+ / 0-)

      of time.  Religion is something that people carry around with them, or not.  Plenty of people who are not religious are warmongers, just like plenty of people who are religious aren't.  And visa versa.  
      You can't blame war on religion, but you can blame it on the worst of human nature and humanity in general.  

  •  The unreligious Left (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    and so on...

    But isn't this diary a very religious, even a very christian one?

    Has anybody told Amy Sullivan? Or is speaking to "people of faith" only valid when speaking about abortion?

  •  Powerful (0+ / 0-)

    Maryscott, This brought tears to my eyes...a very powerful diary. Well done.

  •  War! (0+ / 0-)

    What is it good for? Absolutely nothing! Say it again...

    *IMPEACH!* But First: Censure!

    by MichaelPH on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:27:22 PM PST

  •  Made me think of another Bombs Away song (0+ / 0-)

    By Kansas City alternative band Psychowelders
    Lyrics by singer Rhondda Francis
    -- released during the Gulf War in 1991


    The old ways will crumble;
    we'll cheer as they fall.

    We'll bury them singing.
    We'll dance on their headstones,
    and so it's bombs away.

    We'll trample the temples
    and set up our own gods
    and so it's bombs away.

    Pack me a lunch, Mom,
    I'm off to the war.

    Put the babies to the torch,
    better say we're brave.

    They aren't like us;
    they're xenophobes.
    Kill all the men
    and rape all the women
    and so it's bombs away.
    Cut off their fingers
    and force them to eat them
    and so it's bombs away.

    Anarchic opinions
    and turbulent thoughts
    tend to be fatal,
    just follow directions
    and so its bombs away.

    Take hold of the joystick,
    just like simulations
    and so it's bombs away.

    I ask no questions.
    I do as I'm told.
    They don't count as people.
    It's the American way.

  •  great diary (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kdrivel, trashablanca


    Thanks for the diary, looking at those pictures is heart wrenching. It is sad that the Republican Party has successfully highjacked religion. As someone who works in politics, it is sometimes hard for me to keep my religious viewpoints out of it, but to me exploiting my views is just as bad as lying about them.

    thanks again for the diary... people need to see this!


  •  real motives (0+ / 0-)

    I was listening to Randi Rhodes today as she played the comments of Scott "the Liar" McClellan at the daily lie news conference today and Simple Scotty said that the orders for this didn't come from Bush but the Penatgon and the generals free-lancing. My brother tells me that supposedly some chickenhawk types from Congress went crying to Dumsfeld and pleaded with him to do something. And this is what he did. My brother also tells me that the pom pom squad over at Faux news isn't too happy with the results and they are trying real hard to try to get some positive spin out of this.

  •  cannot believe they think this will work (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Whether it is bombing the hell out of Iraq and killing innocent victims for a rich white man's power game or clubbing 325,000 baby seals on a "hunt" Cheney style in Canada - it is a deplorable show of man's inhumanity where greed, profit, and power take precedence over life and the living. It's so disgusting and it has to end NOW. I'm so grateful for this diary and I share your thoughts and feelings and emotions too everyone. I remember feeling the exact same way when the first bombs started to drop - IN AFGHANISTAN!

  •  Someone needs to 'Bomb' the ranch at Crawford... (4+ / 0-)

    Perhaps if some of the Bush family tree were wiped out Georgie Boy might reconsider his violent pathology.

    Lets not even think about that dick, Cheney, he's not even human at this point.

    Oh, and for any NSA, CIA, FBI, or whoever else gets their jollies on by datamining private citizens, my stating that "I'd like to see the Bush family wiped out" doesn't mean I am planning, conspiring, or doing, any such thing. It just means that, like Jesus, I dream of a better world, preferably one without trumped up little tin-pot fascist power freaks such as yourself and your dear leader in it. Comprende? Now piss off!

    <div style="border:2px;padding:4px;border-style:dotted;"> You want to downsize the government?
    Fuck you. My government defends the American people.&l

    by deafmetal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:41:57 PM PST

    •  i loved that comment!! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      but i'd be the first to wager that you won't be getting on a flight anytime soon.  chances are, some 26 year old, GED equivalent, nephew of stephen hadley's second best friend, has been watching this commentary from arlington, VA and just passed your creds to the guys who run the "no-fly list show".

      Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. - Samuel Johnson

      by sedrunsic on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:01:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No 'Fly List' Volunteers (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Perhaps we should do a "Voluntary NO FLY LIST" !! I might be talkin' out my ass, but I sure wouldn't miss any of the corporate bullshit travel at this age. I would gladly  volunteer for such a list if I could find a way to do it without getting my house ransacked while I'm at work...

        NO FLY! NO FLY!  

        BTW: bUSH is a PIG!!!

        If they hate us for our freedom, they must really love us now! - MQAblog

        by FakeNews on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:09:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Where were these posts... (0+ / 0-)

      ...ten years ago when Saddam was murdering tens of thosands?

    •  Please don't advocate violence or harm (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chancy gardner
      against the President of the United States or the Vice President or any member of our government on Daily Kos.   This is really not the time or the place, if ever, for such rhetoric.

      We only advocate action via our Constitutionally guaranteed democratic processes for changing our government and its policies.  You won't find Marcos or any of his most trusted contributors here advocating the violent harm to the President you've ranted for in your post.

      Please cease and desist.  It doesn't help anything.

      Much as I understand your emotion.  I'm sure you didn't mean it literally.

      •  Why shouldn't I advocate violence and harm... (0+ / 0-) the President of the United States (of America) or the Vice President?

        They've gone one step further than advocating violence and harm against the people of Iraq haven't they?

        Iraqi children have had their legs blown off, some had their arms blown off instead.

        Some were luckier, they didn't lose any limbs, but they will have to poop into a plasic bag attached to their stomachs for the rest of their lives...

        Please don't patronize me with legal catch-phrases and meaningless assumptions like:

        I'm sure you didn't mean it literally.

        Yes. I. Did. Mean. It. Literally.

        The world would be a better place if George and all his godamn buddies "ceased to exist".

        That's just my opinion though, ignore it if you don't like it.

        <div style="border:2px;padding:4px;border-style:dotted;"> You want to downsize the government?
        Fuck you. My government defends the American people.&l

        by deafmetal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:13:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The problem is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          the Freepers won't "ignore it".  They will hold up your post as the "poster child" in the right wing blogosphere and in the TM, as showing all that is wingnut crazy, radical and downright dangerous (their characterization) of Daily Kos and the leftist blogs.

          I think maybe you are a troll from their side, hoping to incite others to join in with you, so that there will be more hysterical, lynch-mob posts like yours here, advocating assassination, etc. of our President.   More ammunition for the right wingnuttisphere against the credibility of Daily Kos and the quality contributors here.  All the excellent, well-reasoned, articulate posts get drowned out by just your kind of destructive, shrieking blathering, in the minds of those we are possibly hoping to reach with "reason" and equanimity.

          I still maintain, this is really bad to have posted anywhere on DKos, especially unchallenged, and it's good that no one has joined in with you.   The DKos community, in general, does not advocate violent change of our government.  

          I have no problem whatsoever "ignoring" posts like yours.  But it's imperative that there be a record that your post was opposed with all due censure.  In my knowledgeable, experienced opinion.

          But I do understand your sentiment, especially with the new "shock 'n awe" campaign underway.   I do understand the emotion behind what you wrote...

          Assuming you're not really just a wingnut troll trying to foment advocacy for violence against the President on DKos for your own right wingnut agenda...

          •  I apologize (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            I see you've made some good contributions to DKos in the past and you've been here a long time.  So the "right wingnut" agenda aspersion is uncalled for.

            But I still stand by my firm assertion that advocacy of violence against any of our government leaders does not belong on Daily Kos whatsoever.  Not.

            •  No problem. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              It's easy to mistake anger as a bad energy.

              It can also be used as a good energy though.

              I may not be doing so myself, but that is where I'm coming from.

              Anyway, thanks for being so gracious sockpuppet.

              <div style="border:2px;padding:4px;border-style:dotted;"> You want to downsize the government?
              Fuck you. My government defends the American people.&l

              by deafmetal on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 07:29:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

  •  A moment of silence.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pam from Calif, imabluemerkin

    It was painful to read your diary, because the images are so horrific.   But, it felt very good to have you say what needed to be said, so very effectively.

    A moment of silence...


  •  Thanks for putting this so (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    bluntly and simply.  

    I sat and cried when I heard this news.  I hate that this is being done in my name, in the name of America, and in the name of Christ.

    There is another text in the New Testament that I've been thinking of a lot lately, and it is the shortest:  Jesus wept.

    "Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." - Reinhold Niebuhr

    by Mahanoy on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:51:01 PM PST

  •  And only Senator Russ Feingold saw this coming? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    when he refused to give Bush permission to invade Iraq?

    This above all: to thine own self be true...-WS

    by Agathena on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 01:53:19 PM PST

  •  just to insert a bissel of Judaism here: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pam from Calif

    "Better to be a Fool all the days of your life, than evil for even a moment".

  •  I'm not a mom... (6+ / 0-)

    ...but I feel like one when I see the faces of these young angels.

    It's snowing outside my window today; a clean white blanket covers the muddy pre-spring horizon. I wish it could be that simple to cover our sins in Iraq. I grieve with the people of conscience left still in the world.

    Collecting Light

    Across the street a neighbor strings white lights
    along the eaves of his house.

    Across the world they sleep out in the cold,
    our neighbors, too, wakened by gunfire.

    I see the way the chickadees take turns at the feeder.
    I watch a woman take her husband's hand.

    I see the way the sun will find the only interruption in dark clouds,
    to toss this amber light across the pines.

    I watch the way a young man lifts his mother from the wheelchair
    to the car, the shawl he lays across her lap.

    I save up every scrap of light, because I know that it will take
    each tiny consolation every day to mend the world.

    - Deborah Gordon Cooper

  •  Amen! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Preach it, sister.

    Blog this! Visit me at K Street Blues. It will change your life. (Actual life-changing not a guarantee.)

    by AggieDemocrat on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:17:42 PM PST

  •  nice job MSOC (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Moveon just happened to send me one of those "let us help you write an LTE" things today, so  I  ripped W a new one for the bombing. Let's see if  the Dallas Morning Snooze will print it.

    An election does not make a democracy.

    by seesdifferent on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:23:57 PM PST

  •  fantastic (0+ / 0-)

    Another great diary that is dead on accurate. Well done!

    I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -Voltaire

    by baracon on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:40:23 PM PST

  •  Okay MaryScott... (0+ / 0-)

    THIS diary will get a recommend from me and other than that...a simple THANK YOU for saying it the way it is.

    It seems that the RAGE we are beginning to feel now in the masses is growing to point that something will happen MUST.

  •  Powerful (0+ / 0-)

    Thank you Maryscot

    "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it."-- Mark Twain > >

    by brndlbxr on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 02:48:40 PM PST

  •  All this violence, death and destruction... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    trashablanca, imabluemerkin
    wanton killing of innocent civilians (aka "collateral damage") and putting our fine military troops yet again in harm's way, all because the poll numbers fell to speak TRUTH to Power, and because Stephen Hadley was giving his awwwkkkkkk, parrot-speech today on "national security".   He needed a dramatic back-drop, you see.

    Whatever the talking-heads "generals" etc. etc. paraded on the TM news and cable channels (who were obviously prepped in advance) try to spin this egregious assault campaign as being:  "to go after insurgent strongholds, honest!!", it's still just theater to Karl Rove and Dick Cheney.    And $$$ falling outta the sky for Helliburton.  

    Bombs away, indeed.

    My heart weeps with you, MSOC.   What have we done?   What in God's Name have we done?

  •  bombs away here too... (5+ / 0-)

    to comment...

    Maryscott, I'm glad you posted this.  

    Call this "how they twist the Bible to promote murder in the name of war."  It should be simple enough to just read Jesus, as you have done.  As someone who has studied the Bible and the Jewish context of Christianity for over two decades, I couldn't say AMEN more adamantly with font the size of your living room.

    The right are inventing a Bible that doesn't exist.  Suffer me to read the Bible literally for the opportunity to help LaHaye and Robertson and Dobson and all the rest of the murder-loving "prophets" hurl themselves onto their own swords (and subtitle it why I would be called a heretic in any goyish congregation).

    Take the word rapture.  It is not in most translations of the Bible, and never in that context.  As you probably know, it is a concept with a nefarious history (Rushdoony) dating but two centuries back.  It was never a part of Jewish belief, that there would be no tribulation (try reading Jesus).  Trouble further with this "pre-trib rapture" is that it's too late for half the world.  What good's a pre-trib rapture when your family's been blown to bloody death in front of your eyes already in Iraq?  Only conceited, spoiled people who have never been outside the US could ever even have use for this idea.

    Does this sound familiar?

    .Isaiah 5:18-24
    Woe to those who drag iniquity with the cords of falsehood, And sin as if with cart ropes;  
    Who say, "Let Him make speed, let Him hasten His work, that we may see {it;} And let the purpose of the Holy One of Israel draw near And come to pass, that we may know {it!}"  
    Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!  
    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!  
    Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine And valiant men in mixing strong drink,  
    Who justify the wicked for a bribe, And take away the rights of the ones who are in the right!  
    Therefore, as a tongue of fire consumes stubble And dry grass collapses into the flame, So their root will become like rot and their blossom blow away as dust; For they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.  

    This all arises because fundies CONFLATE THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD (e.g., everybody) WITH THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD (e.g., Jesus).  It really shows up in Romance languages.  The first is imperative, the second subjunctive.  We have next to no subjuctive tense left in English, which is why it's easy for English-speaking Bible Belt quick-studies to conflate the concepts.

    This is the whole premise for the abortion fight - take away the resurrection and then there's no hope.  With the resurrection we see the mercy of God on every creature.  EVERY creature.

    In fact the Bible has been perverted into a stupid and gross culture of death.  In 144 there was a fight over whether the resurrection was figurative or real, in particular, whether it involved this earth.  One "Heresiarch" named Marcion insisted flesh and the earth and everything material was evil, therefore there could not be a physical resurrection of Jesus or anyone else.  The deacons of the church threw Marcion out (rich shipping magnate's playboy son) together with all his money.  Back then there was still a strong Jewish constituency in the church.  The winning view made belief in physical resurrection mandatory for faith.  This is very telling, what the original idea was about.

    No Jews look forward to becoming an intelligent gas in the outer stratosphere, which is what the Tim LaHaye set look forward to being.  The whole idea was to heal this earth, and live here in peace, with the help of the Meshiach (messiah).  For that matter most Jews believe in reincarnation (1, 2, 3, 4,
    5, 6), always have, always will, and I will never back down that the abuse of the "born again" passage is going to end up being the most embarassing misprision of Scripture ever on the face of the earth.  For that matter hell is a Jewish concept, regarding a people who would rise up and abuse the name of G-D, and become a fiery mess in the sight of all the planet:

    .Isaiah 66:24"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."

    The same links (numerals above) detail the original Jewish concept of Hell, or Gahenna, the waste-place.  Which is NOT the entire planet, thank you.  Notice the image of mortals still around on the face of the earth.

    Or how about "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

    I mean, I want to swing the biggest leveller I can find at the rapture-oids who think it is cool to destroy the earth.  I will close with this quote from Revelation11:18:

    "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

    This concept marks the start of Mr. LaHaye's "left behind" moment.  Well they're wrong about the rapture.  So if "time came for the dead to be judged" then they got there somehow.  Either (a) trumpet concept, jump out of graves, or (b) the US state-issue church finds out how misled they have been about the phrase "born again" (there too is a long play between imperative and subjunctive).

    I cite these passages to throw the Tim LaHaye doctrine on its own sword.  For he is joined at the hip with "heresiarch" Marcion who invented a religion which taught that the flesh was evil, who invented a gospel based on abhorrence of and destruction of the earth.  I realize a lot of readers do not literally follow these passages.  But when you put LaHaye's exegesis to the fire, it burns.  So will he, for misleading millions of people into thinking he's some kind of prophet from God.

    nostalgia isn't what it used to be

    by stonemason on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:02:35 PM PST

  •  Saturday is protest, if Kos lets you out to play (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Just sayin, "the master" has been known to disapprove of the utter uselessness that are demonstrations...don't shoot the messenger...

    Think Different, Think Green

    by shmooth on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:04:31 PM PST

  •  We will pay and not be able to declare ignorance. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    deafmetal, Superpole, trashablanca

    If WWII Germany were able to see the immediate results of their "national plan" so readily, would they have "supported their troops" as long as we have?  We are a sad bunch of people, we will pay dearly - no matter who gets elected in the future...

    If they hate us for our freedom, they must really love us now! - MQAblog

    by FakeNews on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:06:15 PM PST

    •  John Quincy Adams thought we had it coming, too.. (3+ / 0-)

      From Rethinking Camelot, after Adams was out of office he found his conscience, concerning our mass murdering of the Indians:

      John Quincy Adams became an outspoken critic of slavery and policy towards the indigenous population -- policies that he described as "among the heinous sins of this nation, for which I believe God will one day bring [it] to judgement."

      Think Different, Think Green

      by shmooth on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:11:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Such a shame that (a) God doesn't exist... (0+ / 0-)

        In some kind of twisted way could it almost be an injustice that there is no God?

        Nah, thank f*ck.

        <div style="border:2px;padding:4px;border-style:dotted;"> You want to downsize the government?
        Fuck you. My government defends the American people.&l

        by deafmetal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:33:10 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  My mom was a victim of air strikes. (7+ / 0-)

    Actually, area carpet bombing followed by a firestorm.

    Image hosting by Photobucket

    The death toll in that bombing in Tokyo exceeded the deathtoll for the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But bodycounts are so passe, aren't they?

    My Grandmother was all the way on the other side of Tokyo when the raid started. She made her way through a burning city to get back to her daughters.

    Image hosting by Photobucket

    Ironically enough, while my mom and her family were being shell shocked by area bombing by American B- 29's, their house in Germany was spared because the Americans there used B-17's for more accurate strikes on military targets. But family was lost in the firebombing of Hamburg by less discriminating Canadian and British area bombers.

    Still and all, put my mom in the presence of a US vet of a certain age, particularly a marine vet, and she gets all sentimental and wants to shake their hands and thank them.

    You see, at the close of the war, the local police commander in the town where they were living came to see my grandmother. He informed her that, had Japan not surrendered and had the US sent in troops, she and her daughters were scheduled to be placed as "hostages" on the front of armoured cars. The sight of US marines meant safety and fredom from 6 years of deprivation and threat.

    In 1946 there was a flood and young American marines came and saved the whole family from drowning by building a rope bridge and ferrying the whole family across on their backs.

    I wonder, in 50 years or so, how many Iraqis will be going up to AMericans to ask to shake their hands?


    "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

    by deepfish on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:24:01 PM PST

  •  They're not Christians; they're pseudo-Christians (5+ / 0-)

    For the most part, the "religious right" does not follow what Jesus said.  Thier two main issues -- abortion and homosexuality -- were not discussed by Jesus.

    The "religious right" wants war; Jesus talked peace.

    let's call them "pseudo-Christians"

  •  I don't usually cry.. but this brought tears. (0+ / 0-)
  •  This from Firedoglake (3+ / 0-)

    The one thing that Gen. McCaffrey said that gave me any sense of things being done properly, perhaps, is that the planning for this assault was apparently out of the Pentagon and, specifically, by the commanders in the region. That the White House was cut out of the planning altogether was confirmed today by Scott McClellan, under questioning about whether or not the President gave a go ahead from NBC's David Gregory.

    And, btw, no idea if that is true or not that the WH had no role whatsoever in any of the planning -- but the fact that this was floated out to McCaffrey via his military sources and was then said publicly is a huge red flag in terms of military commander trust -- let alone the trust of the American public -- about the lack of competence and lack of confidence in the Bush Administration with regard to any actions they've taken in Iraq.

    For all those involved in the assault and their families here at home, here's hoping for a lot of safety -- both for our troops and the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire in Samarra. I've just had a bad feeling for quite a while, and it is getting worse by the hour.

    So Bush has even lost the faith of the military, and they are now making their own decisions. They just want to get the f*** out of there.

  •  You rock, Maryscott...Well said. (0+ / 0-)

    Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right

    by darthstar on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:42:07 PM PST

  •  Boom! (0+ / 0-)

    <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value=""></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

  •  Deep thoughts (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ari Mistral, singing bridge

    This morning I was driving behind a SUV with a Bush/Cheney sticker and a sticker that said 'Every child is a gift from God.' I wanted to ram the mofo with my Prius.

    •  Ram the mofo... (0+ / 0-)

      Maryscott's diary is infectious, creating hundreds of responses. Many responses were unfortunately filled with hate, completely going against her premise of loving one another. Not accepting another's point of view, including the obvious that "every child is a gift from God" sends a sad signal about our true beliefs. How could such a statement about a "child" on a sticker bring up such a response? We can say it was only in jest, but it came from somewhere. And we're supposed to be the kinder and gentler people.

  •  Maryscott . . . (0+ / 0-)

    You're killing me.  The photos are almost unbearable.

    Very, very well said.  

    "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." GHWB

    by proudtinfoilhat on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 03:45:04 PM PST

  •  MSOC, you give xtianity too much credit (0+ / 0-)

    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.  Matt 10:34 (KJV)

  •  how can bush live with himself knowing that (0+ / 0-)

    hundreds of civilians will die in this?

    I just don't understand.

    •  The occupant of the WH is NO CHRISTIAN (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      crimsonscare, Pam from Calif

      Randi Rhodes made a great comment today: the pResident must have narcolepsy because that has to be the only way he can get any sleep.

      I truly believe that anyone who thinks the occupant of the White House is a Christian, is engaged in a serious, fixed delusion.


      "...the United States is looking forward to eating Indian mangoes." - George W. Bush

      by Ari Mistral on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:21:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey, Ari (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ari Mistral

        Thanks for the 4(rec) above.

        Did you check out this BP guy, almost as bad as what's his name that was pestering you a few months back.

        Guy doesn't seem to get it that the reason he's been troll-rated isn't because he's saying something disagreeable, it's because he's being disagreeable.

        Later, catch you in the funny pages

        When I must guard my thoughts, feelings and words, lest I be unpatriotic...then my country is lost

        by crimsonscare on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:02:39 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Tolstoy writes of Bush (0+ / 0-)

    Continual brazen flattery from everybody round him, in the teeth of obvious facts, had brought him to such a state that he no longer saw his own inconsistencies or measured his actions and words by reality, logic or even by simple common sense; but was quite convinced that all his orders, however senseless, however unjust and mutually contradictory they might be, became reasonable, just and mutually accordant simply because he gave them.

    From Hadji Murad by Leo Tolstoy. Describing Tsar Nicholas I. Written over 100 years ago. He could be writing about Bush now.  

  •  Christan Love (0+ / 0-)

    I believe that the psalms are among the prettiest verses in the bible.

    Psalm 137:5-9

    1. If I shall forget thee, O Jerusalem! let my right had forget.16. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember thee not, if I set not Jerusalem over the head of all my joy. 7. Remember, O Jehovah! the children or Edom, in the day of Jerusalem, saying, Lay it bare, lay it bare even to the foundation thereof. 8. O daughter of Babylon laid waste.2 happy he who shall pay thee back the retribution wherewith thou retributedst us! 9. Happy he who shall take and dash thy little ones upon the stones.

    Lovely religion.

    "If they don't represent me, they don't get to pretend to represent me."

    by keefer55 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:16:35 PM PST

  •  Thank you Maryscott (0+ / 0-)

    I am calm -- the calm you have when you know that you cannot save the person/victim/our country/deep love -- and you know deep pain is coming.

    I am bracing my body and mind for what is to come --our country is the car crossing over the centerline of the highway -- headlong and headon -- how much time do we have and what are our chances?...

    Our system is unable to address what is happening to make a correction.  We cannot vote him or them out soon enough, completely enough to stop it.  Our system no longer works to support an aggressive and muscular media -- except the blogs which though gaining in power remain still too unable to shift the masses.  The masses are also distracted with their own local suffering or too ignorant to know what this means for them.

    This is what can cause madness - this feeling of inevitability mixed with powerlessness.  It is our mission however to become at least active in a direction.  

    We start by knowing that roar that approaches will hit us soon and we must get ready.

    ..Don't ask "where are the leaders. WE are the leaders!

    by SwimmertoFreedom06 on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 05:54:28 PM PST

  •  Info --no bombs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    U.S., Iraq Launch Massive Air Assault
    Mar 16 8:52 PM US/Eastern

    Associated Press Writers

    BAGHDAD, Iraq

    In a well-publicized show of force, U.S. and Iraqi forces swept into the countryside north of the capital in 50 helicopters Thursday looking for insurgents in what the American military called its "largest air assault" in nearly three years.

    There was no bombing or firing from the air in the offensive northeast of Samarra, a town 60 miles north of Baghdad, the U.S. military said. All 50 aircraft were helicopters Black Hawks, Apaches and Chinooks used to ferry in and provide cover for the 1,450 Iraqi and U.S. troops.

    The military said the assault Operation Swarmer aimed to clear "a suspected insurgent operating area" and would continue over several days.

    Residents in the area of the assault reported a heavy U.S. and Iraqi troop presence and said large explosions could be heard in the distance. American forces routinely blow up structures they suspect as insurgent safe-houses or weapons depots. It was not known if they met any resistance, but the military reported detaining 41 people.

    •  OK, Good (I Guess) (0+ / 0-)

      so this isn't to be another Fallujah-- which succeeded only in increasing the ranks of the insurgents, and probably created 10 more Zarqawi's.

      so what?

      bombs, missiles, and firing fifty caliber machine guns from the Apaches into Fallujah didn't accomplish jack shit.

      so now rummy's going to the other extreme, taking a page from the Israeli's book (another failure) and are now merely bulldozing the homes of "suspected terrorists".

      gimme a break.

      "Think of Iraq as a military base with a very large oil reserve underneath.... You can't ask for better than that." Fadel Gheit

      by Superpole on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:59:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And this helps the children... (0+ / 0-) the photographs in MSOC's diary how?

      There is no relativity when it comes to an unjust war.

      Full point. Period. Full stop.

      <div style="border:2px;padding:4px;border-style:dotted;"> You want to downsize the government?
      Fuck you. My government defends the American people.&l

      by deafmetal on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:22:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  These words still ring true (0+ / 0-)

    Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent...

    Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam Iraq. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam Iraq. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours.

    Martin Luther King Jr

  •  MSOC (0+ / 0-)

    as I type through tear filled eyes, a humble thank you.

  •  Call it what you want (0+ / 0-)

    the pictures in this diary are real and while they may not reflect this particular "massive aerial assault" they do reflect what Bush's war has caused.

    It bears repeating and repeating and as wide a dissemination as possible. BushCo is a murderer and no amount of justification can obscure the fact that HE STARTED THIS WAR.

    -4.25, -6.87: Someday, after the forest fire of the Right has died we'll say "Whew, I'm happy that's over."

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 06:53:04 PM PST

  •  We Get Only Death (0+ / 0-)

    "The killed family was not part of the resistance; they were women and children," Ahmed Khalaf told the AP. "The Americans have promised us a better life, but we get only death."

    I hope the American sheeple are ready for the attacks likely to be coming our way..

    "Think of Iraq as a military base with a very large oil reserve underneath.... You can't ask for better than that." Fadel Gheit

    by Superpole on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:52:22 PM PST

  •  Iraq (0+ / 0-)

    "You! What planet is this?!" Leonard McCoy, MD

    by moltar on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 07:55:22 PM PST

  •  Thank you MSOC ... (0+ / 0-)
    For always being a bleeding heart.

    I've always admired bleeding hearts.

    It all comes from my childhood .. way back in the day when I was a good little Catholic elementary school girl and my favorite nun told me that to be a "bleeding heart" was to emulate the "sacred heart of Jesus".

    Take that, you effin' Christians!

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:20:31 PM PST

  •  OMG! (0+ / 0-)

    Does anyone have two candles to stick around someone's neck so we can get the "fishbone" out of this diary!   ;-)

    My, my MSOC ... you do have a penchant for attracting the most malignant stalkers.

    I am completely serious when I say that I hope that your phone is unlisted.

    There are some scary nutjobs here. Fortunately, they come and go.

    But long ago, when I got a full-time job, I lost my TU status here since I don't post enough.  Otherwise I'd blast the MF.

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:29:02 PM PST

    •  On second perusal ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I'm glad to see it ended peacefully.

      You have a unique ability to get at everyone's emotional core when you write.  Many will resent it and lash out.

      But that's because many are none too comfortable with their emotional core ...

      However I find your "arrow aimed at our hearts" cathartic ... every time, every time.


      "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

      by Glinda on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:46:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  'nothing I can say or do' (0+ / 0-)


    When it comes to killing children, a little more preventive thought is called for than the casual "I can't" toss-off.  

    After all, if it were our children being massacred, wouldn't we want the strong, powerful people in that faraway land to at least stop buying the deaths of our children -- as casually, and callously, as they would buy the pet food at their supermarkets?

    "But we are forced to pay for it!"

    No -- the German people were forced to turn in Jews.  In other words, protecting a Jew could get you killed.  The penalty was clearly proportional to the good you might accomplish.

    That was a true moral dilemma.

    What proportionality is there to our situation?

    You -- YOU -- not your excuse monkey George Bush -- pay to have kids killed -- every day.

    And you continue to do this because you fear -- WHAT? -- some penalties from the IRS?????

    MY GOD -- look those parents in the eyes, and tell them why you were afraid to STOP PAYING for the deaths of their children!

    And because you hope -- what? -- hope to someday benefit from living under the benevolence of the American Empire?  Once it stops killing those brown people?

    I'm sure the citizens of Dresden thought they had a good thing going, too -- for awhile there.

    You can stop this madness.  Just needs a small slice of the majority that already declares its opposition, but an opposition that so far amounts to "Blah, blah, blah" in Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld's ears.  

    And maybe in mine, too.  I don't think you've caught on to the seriousness of our situation here.  If you had, you would act differently.  All of you.

    What the fascists in power, and the Vichy Dems in Congress need to hear is the whiff of citizen revolt, a revolt that puts their slush funds out of reach, as it once put the Tea in Boston Harbor.

    They need to get really scared: "The little suckers are revolting!"  And then we tell them where it ends.

    It's been done before, by people under much more difficult circumstances -- and under less weight of guilt -- than we.

    So -- NOW you know HOW TO STOP KILLING CHILDREN, and it is on your head if you don't.

    If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State...

    by HenryDavid on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 08:52:51 PM PST

  •  They worship death (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ...these Republicans.  They believe in death.  They love the "final" solution.  They are sick, evil people who belong in mental or penal institutions.

    "The survival value of intelligence is that it allows us to extinct a bad idea, before the idea extincts us." -- Karl Popper

    by eyeswideopen on Thu Mar 16, 2006 at 09:08:12 PM PST

  •  33% (0+ / 0-)

    in the polls and all of a sudden we're bombing shit. hmmmmmm, nothing suspicious 'bout that!

    if you cut out all the passages in the bible where jesus talks about the poor you'd have the perfect container to smuggle rush limbaughs drugs in - al franken

    by hoodoo meat bucket on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 12:42:09 AM PST

  •  Thank you for this post... (0+ / 0-)

    We can't be reminded too often of the horrors of war. When I heard the news about the renewed bombing I had the same response as Maryscott. My response was summarized in one crude word: "fuckers."
    As I read this post and the many thoughtful comments I could not help thinking that as an American taxpayer I am contributing to this madness. I'm sick of this war. Lately, I have been thinking I'll return to my native Ireland. I've lost my pride in my American citizenship.

  •  Send on to the fundies (0+ / 0-)

    How could anyone read the Bible verses and other religious texts you've compiled and not see the blatant hypocrisy that is war?

  •  The Pentagon Term (0+ / 0-)

    for all this is "bugsplatter".

  •  'There is nothing I can say or do ...' (0+ / 0-)

    " make this stop."


    You're doing fine.

    Your diary won't immediately shut down the war machine, but it helps grind down the gears in the cogs of the blindly supportive cheering section that helps to power it.

    Rock on.

    Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
      Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
    Tempest even in reason's seat.

    by GreyHawk on Fri Mar 17, 2006 at 04:25:28 AM PST

  •  So, so late. But whatever. (0+ / 0-)

    I hate seeing these images, yet I force myself to watch them. I do this because sane men live in reality, and this horrible, horrible war my country's taken on is all too real.

    I just want to grab all the complacents and warmongers in the country, restrain their arms and eyes, and make them watch this Clockwork-Orange style. This is what your vote's accomplished! This is what's padding your 401Ks! Does it make you happy? Does it?

    Sick, sick country. Sick, sick world.

  •  A Beautiful, Passionate Diary (0+ / 0-)

    Reading this to start my day definitely gave me some perspective. The sins of those who engineered this slice of pornography in Iraq will come back to them ten fold. To think that our nation is inflicting all this suffering on a nation and populus that presented no immediate threat to us sickens me. Thank you for this, Maryscott.  

  •  I promised... (0+ / 0-)

    ...not to respond to these diaries.  But I can't help it.

    It was noted that some of the photos are not of US war victims.  MSOC has a point when she notes that the photos might as well be of kids killed by US bombing.  No difference, really - a dead child is a dead child.  We need to be reminded of what war is about, and how our presence in Iraq has resulted in thousands of deaths.  

    But maybe the individuality of the victims does matter.  A couple weeks ago, when I was last in Iraq, insurgents planted a bomb inside an executed Shia' man's body and placed it on the railroad tracks.  Here's the quote from a daily brief:

    An Iraqi Railroad (IRR) maintenance team was making repairs to the railtrack when they noticed a non-moving body on the tracks.  When the team attempted to check the body it exploded, injuring three (3) people, of which one is considered serious.  

    Seeing his rotting intestines blasted into space was not a pretty picture either.  Do we honor him and his family by showing the image, in the context of demanding an immediate US pull-out?  I donâ€TMt know where he stood on the US invasion.  I know the insurgents killed him and used his body to injure others.  I know that the war is very complex and that his family almost certainly opposes both the Sunni insurgency and the US presence in Iraq.  Did the US kill him?  Not directly.  Indirectly, perhaps â€" if one accepts that Iraq would be at peace had the US not invaded.  BlaiseP got trashed here yesterday, perhaps for good reason â€" he let his temper and his ego cloud his response, and he got aggressive and disrespectful.  But what about the hundreds of thousands of persons killed in Iraqâ€TMs various genocides?  There are 200,000 or more dead Shiaâ€TM men just like this booby-trapped man, killed from 1991-1994 when all of us were asleep.  This is a conflict with a long history, and it does a small violence to the truth to show a bunch of bodies killed by a range of actors and use that a tiny snapshot of the 30 years of hell Iraq has been through.  

    Does one use the body of a person killed by insurgents to protest the US presence?  Maybe.  From the majority perspective here, certainly.  But also understand that some of the families of the victims pictured in this diary might be exceptionally offended, because the insurgents killed their loved ones, not the US, and they may well support the Samarra operation.   Violence is pornographic.  Using some of these photos honors the memory of some of the victims, but using other photos may well be a desecration.  

    I donâ€TMt know the answer.  I really donâ€TMt.  I donâ€TMt doubt MSOCâ€TMs sincerity.  Having spent many years in Iraq, however, I have very mixed emotions and have found that the best thing to do is to concentrate on harm reduction and not kill anyone myself.  But I am very uncomfortable by the alleged moral clarity of this diary.  I know what will happen if the insurgents take over, and I know that the bodies they produce after we leave will not get the same attention.  I donâ€TMt see things in such easily definable terms at all, and having seen a few bodies myself, I feel very uncomfortable about the way they are used â€" deliberately by Bush or accidentally by my colleagues here.  This is a complicated war, and it needs both heart and mind, not heart alone.  

  •  Mary You were Right. (0+ / 0-)

    Chris Floyd and I from Empire Burlesque are working on an article now as we have acquired some images.

    So much for targeting insurgents.

     "This was the attack recently in which the 'army of liberation'  supposidly destroyed a terrorist target... 11 innocent civilians  killed..."

    Izhaqy (near Sammara)



    BALAD, IRAQ: The bodies of Iraqi children, who were allegedly killed during a   U.S. raid near the city of Balad, north of Baghdad, are seen near a garveyard   ready to to be buried, 15 March 2006. Eleven people, most of them women and   children were killed in a house that was bombed during a U.S. raid. Four Iraqis   were killed, including two women and a child, in a US military operation on   Wednesday against suspected Al-Qaeda members north of Baghdad, the US military   said. US forces raided a house 80 kilometers north of Baghdad, near the town of   Balad, searching for a suspected facilitator for Al-Qaeda in the area. A


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