Skip to main content

This is my rant on the current illegal immigration debate. I'll start by being real clear how I feel so you don't have to waste your time here. Undocumented worker Criminal.
I believe that we cannot be a valid voice in our goverment, calling for the trials and jail time of crooked politicans while we refuse to admit that it is criminals crossing our borders. As soon as they make the decision to cross our borders illegally, they become a criminal.
What about all the familys, the children, people ask ? There are hundreds of thousands of Our citizens in prison today who have lost their family by breaking far less serious laws. Why should citizens of another country expect better than we treat our own ? Follow below ?

 Some people on here may have seen what I have commented about this issue, and a few others, but I'll give you a short self history. I have been in the floorcovering business since the age of 16. From warehouse, to installation helper, to apprentice, to journeyman. Most of my life, with a few stabs at other things. I have always worked piece work, never hrly, never union. When I began in the late 60s, the going rate in Fl. was about 1 dollar a sq yd. That meant to a installer about 500 to 700 dollars a wk, not bad back then. More then enough to buy a home, have a family and take a few vacation. In 1995 the rate I was receiving was appox 6.00 per sq yd. with a lic..After expenses and taxes appox $65,000 a yr. Great. This was in Ca. I moved to Las Vegas in 1998 because of the amount of workers from across the border had whittled away at the amount of work I was getting a week, to the point of not working at all some weeks. This was something I was not used to, and could no longer afford to live in the place of my choice.I returned to Ca. because of my wifes health, last year. In trying to return to work, I found the the going rate had been driven down to 1970s rates because of ethic labor.
I'll try to quicken the pace here a little. Many say the workers come here to find a job because there is no work in Mexico, not true. From Pew Hispanic Research :
The vast majority of undocumented migrants from Mexico were gainfully employed before they left for the United States. Thus, failure to find work at home does not seem to be the primary reason that the estimated 6.3 million undocumented migrants from Mexico have come to the U.S.
Now about the myth of they creat work by spenting the money here that they make , and a few other points from Time, in 2004 :
. Because of the exploding illegal population in the U.S., Mexicans sent a record $13 billion back home in 2003, the 3rd largest source of revenue in Mexico's economy.
13 Billion Not spent in our economy
Wages / Unemployment: Evidence suggests that it is low wage rates, not the type of job, that American workers reject. Managers testify that that they hired illegals because their corporations refused to pay wages that would let them attract American workers
Damn Yankees expect a fair wage, how dare they.
Costs / Crime: Illegal immigration holds down the pay of American workers, rewards illegals and the businesses hiring them, and breeds resentment among citizens who can't understand why illegal aliens receive government-funded health care, education benefits and subsidized housing. Community hospitals might be forced to shut down due to growing deficits from treating increasing numbers of illegal aliens.
Rewarding criminals ? Why not, Bush and Cheney are making a fortune.
Open borders allow illegals to come into the country, commit crimes and return home with little fear of arrest or punishment. The U.S. Border Patrol stops literally thousands crossing into the country illegally with U.S. criminal records, whom returned to Mexico and were trying to re-enter the U.S. Of 400,000 illegal aliens ordered to be deported, 80,000 have criminal records.
Borders / Terrorism: An estimated 3 million illegal aliens will come into the U.S. in 2004 - roughly 3 times the number of legal immigrants. An estimated 190,000 illegals have come from countries other than Mexico and have melted into the U.S. population so far in 2004, including from Middle East nations with large populations hostile to the U.S.
As for the last 2 paragraphs, I think they say enough by themselves. I'm more of a liberal than most folks. I was Antiwar before it was popular, I have been Prochoice since the 60s, I have worked as a volunteer around such issues as Rape, Child Abuse, Drug and Alcohol dependancy,and the Homeless. The only reason I was free to do this was because I made a decent living.
I contend, that if you haven't lost a job to, lost pay rate, had to relocate because of, can't find a job today, because of ethic criminal labor, you really aren't qualified to lecture me on how good they are for the USA, and our citizens. You are welcome to agree, disagree, flame me if it will make you feel as good as writing this diary down did me.

Spare me the everyone is a immigrant rant, I'm a total mutt, Heinz 57, but it goes back to a time when there was more buffalo than people.

Originally posted to OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:28 AM PST.

EMAIL TO A FRIEND X
Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags

?

More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Tips or Flames ? (17+ / 1-)

    your choice, at least I feel better.

    -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

    by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:23:08 AM PST

    •  My father-in-law owns a business (6+ / 0-)

      that does about $10 million a year in sales. He builds swimming pools and spas. No big deal, but he has a contractor's license and spends about 18 hours per project, on average, to get all the permits and inspections that are required.

      He almost lost the business last year because he couldn't hire workers to build the pools. He oversold in his market and had about $1 million worth of contracts and no one to do the work, not at $10 an hour, not at $20 an hour, not at $50 an hour. Because of the hurricanes, most workers who might have been swimming pool builders were doing other things.

      A crew of Mexicans, two of whom knew what they were doing and trained the other five, literally saved his business. They are now full-time and trusted crew members, they make exceptional wages, they are fine, decent people, to the person. They all qualify as "illegal" to you. And that's too bad. They are more "American" in that traditional-values-go-to-church- aspire-for-more-stuff kind of way than any of the people I hang with.

      (none / 0), (none / 0), it's off to kos we go, with a...

      by doorguy on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:38:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I live in one of the least diverse states (4+ / 0-)

        .....so help me out here.....

        Why is unemployment 30% (or whatever it is) among African American males but your dad couldn't fund anyone to put in his pools?

        •  In Orlando, Fla., unemployment (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kraant

          is about 4.2 percent at the moment. African American males in Orlando who know how to build swimming pools are more likely to be my father-in-law's competitors than prospective employees.

          (none / 0), (none / 0), it's off to kos we go, with a...

          by doorguy on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:42:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Don't use average unemployment rate (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant

            Please stop using the average unemployment rate.  There was a study released just the other day which suggests that unemployment in the low skilled, no high school diploma, labor market is upwards of 11%.

            Jared Bernstein of the EPI made a comment in that same presentation in which he said that anyone who suggests that we need more unskilled labor in this country has not read, or does not understand, the data.

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:01:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Here's what we do...... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Skid, kraant

            Here in Utah, jobs like that were traditionally done by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  (Mormons)

            Young Latter Day Saint men are supposed to go on a mission for 2 years, and some of them work jobs like construction to save up money for the 2 years they are supposed to be gone.

            Maybe an African American church in Orlando would know some young men who need jobs?  It would give your dad an advantage over his competitors and it would give some guys a chance at work?

            •  My father-in-law's probglem is fixed (1+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant
              Hidden by:
              LunkHead

              just fine and everyone's happy. Maybe there's an African American church that knows young men who need jobs, but if they are out of work and aren't differently abled or otherwise burdened, then they're either lazy, stupid, independently wealthy or otherwise engaged in the arts, schooling or pursuit of some other dream. It's just not that hard to find work here. And if 1,000 more "criminal" workers came here next week, they could find work - were it not for the sort of exclusive, elitist thinking that tries to criminalize a human being for what my ancestors have been doing in America since 1720, when they first arrived from England (and as my great-great grandmother was a Cherokee person, I'm only talking about my patrilineage, some of my ancestors have been here since the earth began). It's a big country, we have a big economy, our "immigration crisis" is bullshit.

              (none / 0), (none / 0), it's off to kos we go, with a...

              by doorguy on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:30:55 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What the fuck? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kraant

                but if they are out of work and aren't differently abled or otherwise burdened, then they're either lazy, stupid, independently wealthy or otherwise engaged in the arts, schooling or pursuit of some other dream.

                Yes, the construction industry, which has a long history of anti-black bigotry, just can't find blacks willing to work.
                I guess they all must be busy eating watermelon and dancing.
                That's just fucking disgusting, thank you very much.

                6/24/05: Charlie the Tuna Creator Dies En lieu of flowers, please bring mayonnaise, chopped celery and paprika.

                by LunkHead on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:33:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You are either an idiot, Lunkhead (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kraant

                  or you're reading too fast for your own comprehension. They aren't busy eating watermelon or dancing except maybe in your own projected fantasies. They are busy in reality with their own jobs, their own businesses and their own families. The developmentally disabled African American man (he's 22) who lives in the group home down the street from my housse and whom I've "adopted" as mentor is working two different jobs and happier than he's ever been in his life (or so he tells me, once a day).

                  (none / 0), (none / 0), it's off to kos we go, with a...

                  by doorguy on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:12:57 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, but it doesn't sound like (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant, OneCrankyDom

        he advertised his employment opportunity very well. $10/hr? Maybe not, but $20? That's around starting union wage, so I think the problem arises elsewhere.

        "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

        by Skid on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:48:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Much anger directed at the worker (6+ / 0-)

    but I don't see a reciprocal anger directed at the companies that hire undocumented workers. Why not direct your anger towards them? Why not call them criminals?

    •  Corp. Crooks (4+ / 0-)

      Are not the ones claiming a " right " to my job. For the sake of brevity, 1st. things 1st.

      -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

      by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:32:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No but the fact remains (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades, kraant

        that people are crossing the borders in large numbers largely because there are so many employers in this country who are more than happy to employ them. And, by the way, who take complete advantage of them after hiring them.

        This is too complex a problem to reduce to "they're criminals". They are breaking the law, but there is more gray than that.

        "Even the President of the United States sometimes must have to stand naked"-Dylan

        by AnnArborBlue on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:35:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  There has been a strong and concerted effort (5+ / 0-)

          On the pro illegal immigration side to subvert any effort at injecting gray into the debate. I do not know why the anti illegal immigration side should not subscribe to the same rules.

          that people are crossing the borders in large numbers largely because there are so many employers in this country who are more than happy to employ them

          There are more than enough people in this country who are willing to sell me drugs too. Does this mean that I then have a God given right to both buy drugs, and injest drugs?

          Please do not tell me that this is comparing apples to oranges, it is not. It is illegal to sell drugs - it is illegal to hire an illegal alien. It is illegal to buy drugs - it is illegal to work in this country without the benefit of citizenship, or a work visa.

          Should we then, using your logic put all of the responsibility for drug use on the seller of drugs, and none on the buyer?

          This is simply another case of the Democratic Party creating the victim, and then screaming 'the victim bears no responsibility for his or her actions'. Feh

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:44:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  'pro-illegal immigration' (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Skid, dannyinla, kraant

            nice one.

            It's a gross distortion of my logic to talk about putting all of the responsibility for drug use on the user, and not the seller. Especially since my comment included the phrase "they are criminals".

            Illegal immigrants are breaking the law, yes. But they're also being exploited by the system, and it's absurd to ignore that fact. Blame should be placed on both the ones crossing over the border and the ones who are more than willing to hire those crossing over the border. To turn the issue into "they are criminals. Full stop." trivializes the complexity of the issue, just like you have apparently done with my comment.

            "Even the President of the United States sometimes must have to stand naked"-Dylan

            by AnnArborBlue on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:49:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (5+ / 0-)

              But they're also being exploited by the system

              Are you suggesting to me that American workers are not being exploited as well?

              People spend a great deal of time here talking about the 'plight of the illegal'. Why not spend some time talking about he plight of the American worker that illegal has replaced?

              <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:08:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What do you want done? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kraant

                Cranky and you both are into ranting. What do you propose be done?

                •  The first thing I would suggest (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Skid, LunkHead, kraant

                  Is that we try to enforce the law. That would be a novel approach, wouldn't it?

                  There were, if I remember, twenty employers who were sanctioned for employing illegal aliens last year. Do you, for a minute, think it was purely the Republicans who did not want the employer provisions of the immigration laws enforced? Bullshit. As soon as the INS start raiding the employers, i.e. enforcing the law, the Nationla Council of La Raza will shit its pants getting the employer enforcement stopped. And the folks over at My Left Wing will go right along with them, using words like 'you can't do that, they are just trying to feed their families'.

                  Any meaningful enforcement will, of course, not happen. What will happen is that another amnesty/enforcement piece of legislation will be passed, just like the 1986 IRCA was passed.

                  What will happen is the amnesty portion of the legislation will be implemented, and the enforcement portion of the legislation will be ignored, or simply not funded.

                  Just like 1986.

                  <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                  by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:29:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  are we reading the same Dkos? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dannyinla, kraant

                labor issues are all over this site.

                "Even the President of the United States sometimes must have to stand naked"-Dylan

                by AnnArborBlue on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:11:21 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  There Is A Peo Illegal Position (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Skid, kraant, OneCrankyDom
              Basically it says one of the following:
              * Migration is free trade and should not be regulated (conservative talking point)
              * Illegals are economic refugees and should be granted entry (liberal talking point).

              6/24/05: Charlie the Tuna Creator Dies En lieu of flowers, please bring mayonnaise, chopped celery and paprika.

              by LunkHead on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:31:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  No. (3+ / 0-)

        They are the one's that are hiring undocumented workers instead of you. They are the one's who refuse to value you or the American labor force. They are the ones who don't give a shit about blue collar workers because all they care about is a bigger profit margin. They say "fuck you Cranky Dem"... and you don't seem to mind.

        •  Are you saying here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kraant

          They are the one's who refuse to value you or the American labor force

          Are you trying to say that our Democratic Party leaders value the American labor force?

          They are the ones who don't give a shit about blue collar workers because all they care about is a bigger profit margin

          Are you trying to tell me that Ted Kennedy values the blue collar worker more than he values his campaign donations from immigration lawyers?

          Bullshit.

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:47:26 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm saying that... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant

            My response was to Cranky Dem's "Corp. Crooks" post.

          •  Our? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant

            You speak of "our Democratic Party leaders."  If you think Kennedy's chief motivation is "campaign donations from immigration lawyers," are you sure you're a Democrat?  You suggest that Kennedy is not just wrong, but corrupt.  Do you feel the same way about other Democratic leaders?  Do you feel comfortable belonging to a political party as corrupt and anti-average joe as your retort suggests?

            •  asdf (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Maine Atticus, Skid, kraant, buhdydharma

              If you think Kennedy's chief motivation is "campaign donations from immigration lawyers," are you sure you're a Democrat?

              Spare me the 'you must be a Republican' crap. And to say that a Democratic Senator who has had no serious challenge to his seat in years, and has seven million dollars in campaign money, has a serious need or reason to take another 500K from immigration lawyers is just horseshit.

              Do you feel comfortable belonging to a political party as corrupt and anti-average joe as your retort suggests?

              No. However I have belonged to the Democratic Party for much longer than the party has been corrupt and anti-average joe.

              <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:04:53 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  By the way (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Maine Atticus, Skid, kraant, buhdydharma

              Do you feel the same way about other Democratic leaders?

              Yes. For you to imply that all of our Democratic leaders have the interests of the 'average joe' in mind is, I would suggest, naive.

              <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:06:26 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  But they are (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buhdydharma

        They're the enablers for the whole mess.

        To make a perhaps bad analogy, it's like blasting drug users while ignoring the dealers.

        Don't be a fuckhead! HTH k thnx

        by kraant on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:38:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Heck, We've Got Enough Anger for Both! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Skid, kraant, buhdydharma
      There is a surfeit of anger here.
      The impending Snark shortage worries me though.

      6/24/05: Charlie the Tuna Creator Dies En lieu of flowers, please bring mayonnaise, chopped celery and paprika.

      by LunkHead on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:36:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Amen, Sister! (4+ / 0-)

      It is all about money, those that have it and those that want it. If we were serious about ending illegal immigration, we have to make sure that there are no jobs that can be had with out legal status. But is that what we are proposing?

      No, we are talking about criminalizing 12,000,000 people (about the population of Ohio) and trying to send them out of the country. This would cost about 200 BILLION dollars over 5 years. Broken down, that is more than the yearly budget for the entire Department of Homeland Security. And why? Because there is some assumption that these people are in some fundamental way different than our own immigrant forefathers?

      These folks are here, they pay 1.5 billion dollars a year in Medicaid taxes and 7 billion dollars a year in Social Security taxes. They want to be citizens, their kids are citizens. Lets make this work for all of us. Lets make them citizens and stop the black market in cheap labor, that will do more for all working class people then trying to evict them ever will.

      If you live in fear the worst has already happened to you

      by Something the Dog Said on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:38:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Why do Kossacks love rich, white conservatives? (6+ / 0-)

    I've never understood why Kossacks love amnesty, a system that benefits the rich, white conservatives in Mexico's ruling class that are stealing everything not nailed down.

    As for the remittances, that is not the problem that you think.

    Only a moron keeps money in Mexico, where the government will steal it.

    -Mexicans send money to their families.

    -Their families buy building supplies, food, clothing, etc.

    -The companies that they buy these products from send the money the hell out of Mexico as soon as they can before it disappears into a cloud of Mordidas.

    Right now, these corporations send a lot of the money to the US.  Pretty soon, they will send it to someone more stable and economically viable.  Like China or India.

  •  dunno why people do this.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kraant

    You had me until you decided that you were the judge of who is "qualified" to debate this topic. Why people feel the need to do that, I have no idea.

    •  that point (5+ / 0-)

      is open for debate, but to me it's like telling a parent who has lost a child, that you know how they feel, when one has never been a parent. Can't possibly know the depth of issue.

      -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

      by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:43:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  no.. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        You're comparing an emotional event to a policy discussion.

      •  So, you have lost a job to illegal immigrants? (0+ / 0-)

        If not, then your argument is just hyperbole. Really, the work you do is so over-run by illegal immigrants that you might have to go on Welfare? Unemployment? Medicare?

        If so, well I am sorry that it the case. But I kind of doubt it.

        If you live in fear the worst has already happened to you

        by Something the Dog Said on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:11:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Many many people in construction (6+ / 0-)

          have lost jobs to illegal immigrants.

          You just totally have your head up your ass there, something! ;) Be happy to give you many many stories from both perspectives.

          To repeat I'm a lifelong carpenter in California and have watched the influx and the effects on the front line.

          Every low level construction worker is right on the edge, all the time, with no bene's, living paycheck to paycheck. If something goes wrong SUCH AS GETTING INJURED IN A VERY DANGEROUS JOB they most assuredly WILL be on welfare medicare etc.

          I'm working through the Workmens Comp system now, want details on that too?

          OK, I've shared, what do you do?

          You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

          by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:21:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Me? I (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant, buhdydharma

            am a 6 Sigma Black Belt, and have not had my job security threated by illegal immigrants.

            I was really asking Cranky, since he was saying that he was trying to feed his kids and keep a roof over his head. Which we all do.

            Construction, yep, seems like an area that would have a lot of day work and that sort of thing. So, okay you have standing to talk about maybe loseing a job. Got it.

            Workers Comp. Now that sucks. My wife hurt her back 6 years ago and workers comp is a bad joke. I feel for you.

            However, I don't think that illegal immigration is the cuase of that screwed up system.

            If you live in fear the worst has already happened to you

            by Something the Dog Said on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:19:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you for your reasonable response (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant

              to my somewhat provocative post!

              All labor issues are inter related as part of the conflict between labor and capital, and that translates to all of society.

              Workmens comp is decidely a labor issue. Enough of a percentage of workmens comp claims come from unsafe working conditions, conditions that employers are responsible for paying for, to significantly damage a system already broken by employers trying to evade their responsibilities.

              That then effects the insurance co.s and that impacts all of healthcare, which as we learn on the front page is a huge concern. The reason we don't have Univ. healthcare is it will alegedely cost Corporations money. However that would completely take the workers comp system of the table. Neither I nor your wife (Ihope she is well) would have to go through this.

              The impact of illegals not having healthcare is obvious. Its all interelated, my new friend ;)

              You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

              by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:13:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Explanation of troll-rating (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buhdydharma

          Read the diary entry.

          Don't be a fuckhead! HTH k thnx

          by kraant on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:23:16 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Actually (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coloradobl, Skid, buhdydharma

          I take it back... It's not quite hitting troll-status...

          But then neither are the posts you've troll-rated.

          Don't be a fuckhead! HTH k thnx

          by kraant on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:27:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

  •  As a blue collar worker (carpenter) (13+ / 0-)

    all my life I ask you not to attack our fellow workers but those who have conciously cretated the situation. Through Union Busting and the wholesale gutting of labor laws and representation (anyone seen OSHA lately?) Capital is acheiving its goal of reducing labor costs and further dividing workers.

    Please see my take here

    You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

    by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:44:05 AM PST

  •  Let me repeat ... (13+ / 0-)

    ...that any legislation which deals with immigration in isolation from all the political, social, economic and environmental issues of which immigration is only one aspect is doomed to failure. Globalization is the real issue, and if liberals/leftists retreat into some version of neo-isolationism as a means to protect jobs, they will have the opposite effect.

    I've got no problem with building an immigration system in which we have a much better idea of who is in the country, with ensuring that every worker is protected by safety, health and wage laws, with keeping out criminals, with shielding us from potential terrorists. I do have a problem with the idea that whatever problems the U.S. economy has can be traced to Guatemalans or Mexicans and that the situation here would be much improved if we just kept them out.

  •  You missed the real problem (4+ / 0-)

    "Illegal immigration holds down the pay of American workers."
    Wrong - Congress's refusal to raise the minimum wage is what holds down the pay of American workers.

    If you don't want a job because you don't like the pay, don't blame someone else for taking the job and making it work at that pay level.  I am so sick and tired of people blaming others for their own laziness.  "They" took my job.  "They" are criminals.
    What a bunch of BS.  If you are really, really willing to work your ass off, a lot of good things can happen and you stop blaming others.  Unions are definitely a part of the blame here as well.  I don't like it that a crane operator with no post high school education makes more money than someone like me who makes ethical pharmaceutical products that people ingest into their bodies.  But I am not going to say "It's so unfair, they are taking away from my pay.  Oh boo hoo"  Get over it.  Two weeks ago, tornadoes came close to my area in St. Louis and killed people and destroyed many homes in Missouri and Illinois.  People who use contractors will be waiting on their new homes for months.  By contrast, an Amish family lost their home and had a new one built by friends and neighbors in 15 hours.  15 hours!!!!.  If the services were available, who would you hire to do a job, union contractors or a group of Amish men?

    "I can't take his money, I can't print my own money, I have to work for money. Well, why don't I just roll over and die!" - Homer S.

    by woobie on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:46:15 AM PST

    •  asdf (9+ / 0-)

      If you don't want a job because you don't like the pay, don't blame someone else for taking the job and making it work at that pay level

      Spoken like a person who has never been replaced by cheap labor.

      Hang in there. It's working its way to you.

      <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:51:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You got me! LOL (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        I would like to think that being raised on a farm, I was the cheap labor.  REAL cheap.  Maybe I just have a romantic, out-of-touch view that if you strive to add value to your company or job, it will be rewarded at some point.  I know there will always be exceptions to this.  

        "I can't take his money, I can't print my own money, I have to work for money. Well, why don't I just roll over and die!" - Homer S.

        by woobie on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:35:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Wough (7+ / 0-)

      You're advocating turning the Amish into scabs?

      O_o

      Don't be a fuckhead! HTH k thnx

      by kraant on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 09:54:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Personally... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LunkHead, kraant

        I don't think I would want the Amish, and the best that 19th century technology can provide, working on my house.

        •  Heh :) (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Skid, LunkHead

          I actually suspect that their building skills are quite good. I mean you'd really care about the quality of the workmanship you're doing if you're going to live in what you build..

          Don't be a fuckhead! HTH k thnx

          by kraant on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:49:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Joe Bob (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Skid, LunkHead, kraant, buhdydharma

          I don't think I would want the Amish, and the best that 19th century technology can provide, working on my house.

          You may want to reconsider this. I for one would love to own a home built by the Amish.

          I have seen videos of some of the custom cooper roofs built by the Amish. The quality of construction and attention to detail is impeccable.

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:52:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Absolutely, spectacular work (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Skid, kraant

            Stemming from generations of experience handed down. Every manufactured product in a house is really just a money saving measure. Nothing beats a hand built home, both for beauty and feel, but for the Green aspects as well. A house that lasts as long say a hundred years, the lifespan of all the sources of materials that went into it, allowing them to repropagate before building your next house, is sustainable building. mass produced crap is a drain on the enviroment. Haha, of course population makes that way untenable

            And how much would it cost?

            Thats why the Amish stay seperate in part, to avoid the 'job' market. Where quality craftsmanship is only for the very rich.

            Of course, being a quality craftsman, this has benefitted ME greatly. That doesn't mean its right though.

            You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

            by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:15:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry, I'm not sold on it. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant, buhdydharma

              Hand-built has it's place, so does mass production and technology. I would happily have an Amish crew do trim and cabinetry, maybe even wood framing, especially heavy timber. That said, I wouldn't trust them too far with my plumbing, wiring or HVAC systems. So yes, Amish craftsmanship is quite admirable and increasingly rare, but let's not over-idealize them. The scope of their skills don't quite encompass what most of us would take for granted in a typical home, much less what we could afford.

              As for mass production, it's a double-edged sword. It allows some bad things to be propagated in almost limitless quantities, e.g.: vinyl siding, synthetic stucco and casework made out of particle board. Likewise, it makes affordable things like 90% efficient gas furnaces and double-paned low-E windows; items which will pay for themselves in energy costs many times over during the lifetime of a structure.    

              •  In my best Homer Simpson voice (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kraant, buhdydharma

                Ummmm - vinyl siding, synthetic stucco and casework made out of particle board. lol

                <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                by superscalar on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 03:57:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, professional blindness (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joe Bob, kraant

                to me, who builds houses, building the house and plumbing are not the same thing, and the thought of an Amish electrician tickles me to no end.

                I am not a luddite and engineered lumber products, which don't require cutting doen as mant trees are great as are furnaces etc.

                You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

                by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:40:09 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I understand (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kraant, buhdydharma

                  I'm an architect, so I have to put the whole thing together. At least on paper.

                  But yes, considering how much people like big windows and open floor plans materials like LVLs, Simpson ties, etc. are great and wonderous things. It's easy to not think of these things as 'technology' but they are, at least to an Amish carpenter.

      •  No way! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        Good question though.  I only advocate the ability to seek out the best workers possible for a given job regardless of union affiliation.  I can't help but think if the Amish offered their services to the non-Amish community, union contractors would be exposed for the half-ass workers they are.

        "I can't take his money, I can't print my own money, I have to work for money. Well, why don't I just roll over and die!" - Homer S.

        by woobie on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:00:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Whuh? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Skid, kraant, OneCrankyDom, happy camper

      You are suffering from some serious cognitive dissonance here. How do you reconcile this:

      If you are really, really willing to work your ass off, a lot of good things can happen and you stop blaming others.

      with this:

      Unions are definitely a part of the blame here as well.

      Now, who's blaming who for what? Maybe instead of blaming crane operators for banding together and demanding a decent standard of living you should join or form a union yourself. Union members aren't taking anything from anyone: except from employers who would prefer to pay them less and pocket the difference. Personally, I say kudos to the unions; they are fighting for a fair share of the wealth they create.

      From what I read in the papers, the pharmaceutical industry has one of the highest profit margins of any business sector in this country. So, if you're not jumping-for-joy ecstatic with what you're making in a business flush with profits I suggest this: Take a cold hard look at your management (and their salaries, stock options, and executive perks) instead of working people in a sector of the economy totally un-fucking-related to yours.

      As for immigration, I don't think the laws and policies of this country should have the effect of placing Americans in direct competition with foreigners within our own borders. Considering the amount of poverty and income inequality in this country, it is not fair that Americans on the lower rungs of the economic ladder face fierce competition from people, both employers and immigrant workers, who have chosen to flout the immigration and labor laws of this country.

      •  Part of what screws union members is (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant
        Hidden by:
        americanforliberty

        the same as what screws about everything else: bureaucracy. Iron Workers Union is a great example to take a look at. The upper eschelon screws the people who actually do the work.

        "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

        by Skid on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:49:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Nice point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        I'll be happy to try to clear this up.
        In the workforce you basically have two types of employees:  those who go above and beyond the call of duty for their job and those who do the bare minimum to get by.  
        IMHO, unions have changed from giving their workers a voice and a chance to be heard into greedy enablers who don't expect the best out of their employees.  Unions give incentive to NOT try one's best because you still get paid the same (scale)regardless of output.  
        When there is an employee who needs to be disciplined, the union rep comes into the workplace, sits down with the employee and their manager/supervisor and hears the case.  If the employee says "they don't treat me fair" an investigation ensues which can take months.  All the while the employee keeps working making the same as those around him/her who are working at a higher level.  This is what I meant be unions being a part of the problem.  They enable and reward laziness.
        Of course this hasn't always been the case, I applaud the crane operators and others who stood up for their rights, demanded more and got it.  All of the rights they have been given offers some people an opportunity to do the "bare minimum" and that is what pisses me off.  

        "I can't take his money, I can't print my own money, I have to work for money. Well, why don't I just roll over and die!" - Homer S.

        by woobie on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:28:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  The plan of the neocons (8+ / 0-)

    is to exterminate the middle class in this country. and without the middle class, the buffer between the rich and the poor, we have no democracy. We would be running around like a bunch of "prols" eking out an existence, worker against worker, while always slipping down the slipery slope to a banana republic.

    This is the neocons wet dream.

    IMHO, OneCrankyDom has every right to diary this subject because he is living it. To trollrate him is an act of cowardice and heaping abuse on top of abuse. Many of us have gone through the same thing, or will go through it. And dammit, I get very angry when people pile on a hard worker who is down. Who has seen his ability to live the American dream go down the tubes because of people who are here illegally and are willing to work for less pay.

    Yes, they are being hired by corporations, who should be fined for doing so, but if these people weren't here illegally and pushing down the wages, people like CrankyDom, who have worked hard and played by the rules would be better off.

    What is so wrong about rewarding people who play by the rules before rewarding people who break the law?

    We have lost manufacturing. We don't build anything anymore. They tell us to get a college education and then we end up with loans we can't pay back because there are no jobs.

    The worker in this country keeps getting all the hits. I am sick of it. I'm all for helping out the next guy, but not at the cost to my own family.

    Sombody fucked up. There is an American flag flying over the White House.

    by Maine Atticus on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:13:30 AM PST

    •  But at least (3+ / 0-)

      you recognize that the employer bears some of the blame. This diary doesn't acknowledge that.

      You're right that the worker keeps taking hits. But it's not other workers that are doing the hitting. As long as they can continue to game the system, the worker gets screwed.

    •  Because of the Underlying Social Justice Concerns (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kraant

      I'll start by saying that I've not troll rated anyone, I'm simply responding to the substance of your comment -- "What is so wrong about rewarding people who play by the rules before rewarding people who break the law?"

      Why are we entitled to a significantly better life in America simply because we were lucky enough to have parents, grandparents, or great grandparents who immigrated?  Why are we morally able to turn a blind eye to the conditions that the immigrant worker seeks to escape?

      The reason I do not ascribe moral culpability to the person who chooses to cross our borders sans paperwork, but otherwise lives a clean life is that it is not morally wrong for them to want a better life for themselves, their children, and their extended families – especially where they are willing to work hard for that dream.  Labeling them as criminals for the simple act of crossing the border to work says more about our morals than it does theirs.

      I agree with others here who have stated that we need to bring immigrant laborers into the system, and provide them with protections.  The Unions should be trying to unionize these workers rather than cheering on attempts to sweep them under the rug, or into a jail.  Then the American worker will be competing with the immigrant worker on an even footing.

      I understand that labor has taken a beating, and that the Democrats need to address that issue.  And if not Democrats, than Progressives.   But the 20 million (to use the largest figure) immigrants should not bear the brunt of workers’ rage against a system that has used them, cheated them, and left them holding the bag.
       

  •  Where do you think (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kraant, buhdydharma, happy camper

    the market forces that enabled your non-union wage back in the '60's and thru the 90's came from?  Thin air, OneCrank?
    Your wage was driven up by the prevailing benchmark of unionized carpeters and floor installers.
    Now that we have right-to-work legislation passed throughout the country and chaos has overtaken the market, you want to blame the ones on the lowest rung who've taken your example to undercut YOU.  The key word here is explotation.  Why does Bush really want a "guest worker" program with no provision for citizenship?  To price YOU out of the market.  To prevent YOU from organizing your fellow floormen for a fair market value wage.
    These Mexican Americans and illegal immigrants are better organized and in fact have a greater chance at restoring economic balance for workers by striking at the soft-underbelly of Corporate/Repug hypocrisy than most splintered and isolated red state xenophobic working poor who continually vote against their own interests then turn in rage and blame others.

    •  Good point (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      edsdet, kraant, buhdydharma

      In the interest of not piling on, I've refrained from playing the non-union card here. But Cranky admits that his entire professional career has been non-union (and there's nothing wrong with that), but I'm sure there's a chorus of union men and women who could complain that Cranky has undercut them.

      That's why his tactic of pissing down the ladder doesn't sit well with me. He spends all his time pissing on the people below him without realizing that he's getting pissed on from above... not from below.

      •  The Carp Union (5+ / 0-)

        in SF was so full of cronyism and manipulation that it became a joke. The prices the contractors were charging in a historicaly labor town, where they at one point had a stranglehold, eliminated them from all but Gov. and high end projects. They totally abandoned the residential market, leaving the majority of workers unrepresented. After five years in the Union I was forced out when the large projects dried up.

        In twenty years of nonunion work, I saw exactly one union rep on a job site. The upperclass of the union had become (basically) repubs. Withe reps making four times what carps were. It was a joke, probably even worse now.

        You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

        by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:49:11 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I hear you Buhd, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kraant

          same thing with my IBEW local happened here in Detroit.  Lost the residential market.  No one to blame but ourselves.
          The Carpeters though have changed tactics and have left the building trades dept and the AFL-CIO in an all out effort to organize what they feel they can - including going after other trades' work.  We are in a free fall free-for-all and it doesn't bode well for ALL workers.
          I'll look to the best organized though and that will include Latino workers who have nothing to lose to fight for their economic rights here.  To me, I have more in common with that fight, than whether they should be felons or perpetually illegal when citizens  won't fight or are too dumb to recognize that's not rain falling on their heads.

          •  Yep thats the point I tried to make (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant, happy camper

            here

            It is us vs. them, but the them isn't other workers. And that is where the next labor revolution will come from as always, think coal miners. The most abused, (like illegals, will rise up and organize when the ruling class pushes them so far down they have nothing to loose. thats the part the pubs don't get, with the whining cry, 'why are they complaining?

            When you aint got nothing you got nothing to loose. The equation for themm is to keep enough people complacent, not rising up, and actually defending the status quo. But eventually they always get to greedy and push too hard.

            In raelity the history of the democrtatic party IS the history of the labor movement. comparing them side by side proves it.

            You can't lick the system...but you can give it a damn good fondling!

            by buhdydharma on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:25:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I'm not anti-union (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Skid, kraant, buhdydharma

      The Union would not accept new workers in my trade when I started, so I quit trying to join.

      -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

      by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:41:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't mean to imply that you were. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        buhdydharma
      •  Many chose that path (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dannyinla, kraant, buhdydharma

        out of necessity.  No argument there.  Necessity.  And in a way it struck a balance when unions, back then were allowed to organize fairly.  You profited by their mere presence.  But that has all gone by the wayside in favor of the lowest bidder, legal or not and by any means necessary to secure an avenue of explotation.
        Because people act out of necessity doesn't warrant that we wave a magic wand and call them "felons" and make it illegal for church groups and social service agencies to assist
        undocumented workers here.  Especially when they have been tacitly invited by business to serve their cheap labor pools.

  •  What I felt (5+ / 0-)

    at the time I wrote this, was that while I know the Corp. Crooks are to blame for most of this, it was time to make this real. Not about policy that wont change, but about how I feel on a dialy basis. Until a few yrs ago, I never had to make more than a phonecall or 2 before I had plenty of work to get by on. That is no longer true. Until a week ago I had a side job set up that would allow me to stay home and care for my wife, while working evening and the days I could find a friend to sit with her. Last week, to save money, I was replaced my 4 workers that know nothing of my trade, speak eng., and they wanted to borrow my tools to boot. I had enuff. This is about the feelings , not the fantasy of changing policy.

    -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

    by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:39:41 AM PST

    •  That's a better diary entry (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kraant, buhdydharma

      becaue it includes some context:

      I know the Corp. Crooks are to blame for most of this

    •  Thanks for writing this (4+ / 0-)

      I mean it!

      Maybe it's just me, but sometimes it feels like it's hard to get through to some people just how hard some people have it.

      I wrote in an earlier comment:

      There's a scene where the family having being evicted from their farm end up working at a plantation. As they travel in their wagon to the plantation guarded by police they go past a picket line and they don't understand what's going on having never seen one before.

      One part I forgot to mention is that in the movie at least the people on the picket line were damn angry at the families crossing the picket line, but that didn't change the families minds. They were starving and needed the work.

      And then the plantation owner screwed over the workers at the plantation by lowering the wages once the strikes back was broken.

      You're on the picket line and the illegal immigrants are the families being brought in to break the strike.

      But it's the fatcats screwing you both over you should hate.

      Don't be a fuckhead! HTH k thnx

      by kraant on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:51:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  i am qualified to lecture you. (7+ / 0-)

    i was a roofer. lost that job to mexican immigrants. i went into architectural sheet metal, got shut out by polish immigrants. the whole time i was calling the irs because, here i was, paying taxes, while they weren't. the irs opted instead to hound a friend of mine for 35 dollars, instead of getting back taxes from the sub-contractors who hired the immigrants. now that i got into the sheet metal union, so many union companies can't compete with the cheap labor that's out there, so half of our local is on the bench. now i can't even find a job at a non union company, and it sure the hell aint because I don't work as hard- ever try roofing? but i still haven't heard anything about deporting polish, canadian, indian immigrants, just mexicans. and nothing about building walls at the airports to stop the immigration problem. there is no way in my mind to justify deporting all of them. they have family here, a lot of them have been here for many years. i think we have to get a lot of these people into the system, get them to pay income taxes, and make the companies who hire them follow the labor laws that they have to follow for the rest of us. every job i went to i have had to fill out an I-9(i think that's what it is), show an id and social security card. do you really think they would still come here if noone would hire them? i think not.  like you said, the lack of jobs in other countries isn't the problem, rather it's how much those jobs pay. race and countries of origin don't hide the fact that we're all workers, and we have to stick together, it's the only way things will change.

    where does our mobility lie?

    by discontent73 on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:53:14 AM PST

    •  even accepting everythin you said (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Skid, LunkHead, kraant

      and mostly agreeing with it, I cannot shake hands with the guy stabbing me in the back.

      -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

      by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:08:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then you hand the corporation a victory. n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        they don't take the jobs, the jobs are given to them. you can't really blame them for getting hired by someone..you can just as easily blame the boss for hiring them. again, if they can't get hired, would they be here in these numbers? why even bother having labor laws if the companies won't follow them and the US won't enforce them? you really should turn your head and get a better look at who's stabbing you in the back.

        where does our mobility lie?

        by discontent73 on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:19:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It ends up a tag team, (3+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          LunkHead, kraant, OneCrankyDom
          Hidden by:
          americanforliberty

          illegals and the employers stabing him/us in the back. Both are complicit.

          "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

          by Skid on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:55:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ahh (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kraant

            but if they were not given the job, would they be able to stab you in the back? they don't force companies to hire them, but the government doesn't force the companies to follow the labor laws.

            where does our mobility lie?

            by discontent73 on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:14:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That is true, but also (2+ / 2-)
              Recommended by:
              kraant, OneCrankyDom
              Hidden by:
              markymarx, americanforliberty

              do not forget that the illegal knew full well that they were breaking the law of the US, and in breaking laws, one should be aware of the repercussions of doing so. In this case that includes the effect the cheap labor the illegal is providing for the business upon the living wage of legal US workers.

              "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

              by Skid on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 04:20:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  but (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Skid, kraant

                they come over knowing they are going to get hired, because the companies that hire them are breaking the law. maybe those companies that hire them should be reminded of the repurcussions of breaking the law. and if nobody would hire them, do you think we would be having this discussion? if nobody hired them, the cheap labor argument is meaningless. shouldn't the US  companies be made to hire legal citizens first and foremost?

                where does our mobility lie?

                by discontent73 on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 05:52:27 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Amen! (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kraant

                  That's the other part of the problem. Somewhere on this thread I've stated the vicious cycle of this before.

                  "Its a grave digger's song, Praising God and State. So the Nation can live, So we all can remain as cattle. They demand a sacrifice..." -Flipper

                  by Skid on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 10:22:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Until the profiteers are punished (4+ / 0-)

      It will never end, and an ever-larger pool of labor will be screwed.

      Someday, guys from Bangladesh will be cheaper, and they will be the ones getting the jobs, not the Mexicans. And after that, hired hands from Nigeria, or Rwanda, or Papua New Guinea.

      It will never, ever end, so long as the only crime people care about is working for peanuts, as opposed to pocket a mint of money from paying peanuts.

      We're all Helens now. :)

      by cskendrick on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:28:39 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Before this falls off the list (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    discontent73, edsdet, Skid, kraant, buhdydharma

    Even if you took me to task, reamed me for I didn't say and should have, made me think, or just read it , let me thank you all. Like I said at the beginning this was about my emotional rant of feeling powerlessness. I have warned people in other diarys to be safe and sane when this all comes to head and it will. Do I want them all jailed ? NO. Do I want change to happen ? Hell yes. Will it ? :: sigh :: nope.

    -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

    by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 11:16:35 AM PST

  •  We're living this too... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid, kraant, OneCrankyDom

    It took my brother three months to get a job, my husband is working for half what he was at his previous job, and it's damn hard not to say nasty things about the immigrants.

    •  I'm union. Laid off for over 19 months (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Virago, dannyinla, kraant, buhdydharma

      and I can say a lot of positive things about my competitors.  I live in a neighborhood that has been busting at its seams for the past eight or nine years with a wave of immigration, legal and otherwise.
      An inner-city neighborhood that was rotting.  In less than ten years the home values tripled.  Homes that were clap-board have been bricked up by workers who after slaving away at landscaping or bricklaying for ten hours would work another two or three on the next row of brick at home.
      The neighborhood is alive and vibrant again and we must have the biggest Cinco de Mayo celebration in the midwest.  Reminds me of my St. Patrick's Days of past.  Good neighbors who add a whole dimension to rust-belt living that would be sorely missed.
      I hope to see them organized into a potent force for justice and wages, the same way the Irish or Germans or Polish were back in the day.

  •  Anyone with a job requiring good English skills (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kraant, buhdydharma, OneCrankyDom

    Is not in the least endangered by illegal immigrant labor.

    They are, however, threatened in level of salary and wages, likelihood of job prospects and promotions in competition with legal immigrant labor.

    The point

    Are upset about illegal immigration, because it's criminal, or legal immigration, because it's corroding our standard of living?

    If it's stopping illegal immigration

    You arrest the people doing the hiring, you stop the illegals. Then you have a finite (albeit large!) problem of converting or deporting the illegals currently in-country.

    If it's immigration controls we're after

    That's a whole different ball of wax.

    If we're mad about declining real wages

    Perhaps we should contemplate population controls, while we're at it.

    If we're anxious about declining standards of living

    Perhaps we should focus on funding all the myriad great ideas about vocational education and improving the education of new generations, such that no one without the exceptional intellectual capital that this country has and has no excuses leaving undeveloped can have, can possibly replace an American worker with ease.

    Now, if they've got game, welcome to the playground. If not, see ya.

    That's my thinking on it.

    We've got several problems all at once, all valid, all practical and we need to sort out what is important to each and every one of us before we spout off.

    Speaking as a reformed spout-offer. :)

    We're all Helens now. :)

    by cskendrick on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:24:57 PM PST

  •  To Cranky Dem, an Apology (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Skid, kraant, happy camper

    Cranky, I have posted several comments on your diary. I stand by my reasoning, but I think that I crossed a line when I made this personal. I asked if you had lost a job to an illegal immigrant. That was a mistake, and I want to retract it.

    I asked the question in the heat of argument. That in no way excuses the act, but I hope it gives a little context.

    You have every right to your opinion. That we disagree is not enough of a reason for me to go after you personally. I am sorry.

    Keep posting, I will keep arguing, and maybe, just maybe, we will actually stumble on a practical answer or a nugget of truth.

    Sincerely

    Something the Dog Said

    If you live in fear the worst has already happened to you

    by Something the Dog Said on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 12:44:42 PM PST

    •  No problem (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LunkHead, kraant, happy camper

      thanks tho. I expected it to get heated. I just want to force more of workers point into this debate. We seem to be talked around, like we dont really matter. I'm glad you made your points.

      -8.63 -7.28 Vote+$.01 I will vote Dem., but in protest and support.

      by OneCrankyDom on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:38:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think you suceeded (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kraant

        in getting people to look at the workers POV. This whole thing is so complex that we have to keep turning it over and looking at all sides.

        Cheers

        If you live in fear the worst has already happened to you

        by Something the Dog Said on Tue Mar 28, 2006 at 01:54:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site