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Pop quiz. Where did video of this waving Mexican flag come from?


Jeb Bush reelection commercial, circa 2002 (click on link to view commercial).

Unlike the xenophobes that dominate the Republican Party, Jeb understood the importance of our nation's immigrants. On the ad, a succession of Latin American flags wave -- Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Colombian, Dominican, Venezuelan, and NIcaraguan, before concluding with a flag of the state of Florida.

Meanwhile, the narration, all in Spanish (and translated here):

It doesn't matter where we come from
Or why we come
We have found opportunity in this land
A better education for our children
The health care our families deserve
A state that has opened up its heart
And has told us, "This is our home"

JEB BUSH, (speaking to the camera in perfect Spanish):
We all want a better life
Together, we're making this all possible in this land
Our house (Nuestra casa)
Our home (Nuestro hogar)

Not just a great ad, but a great homage to the immigrant culture. We can love this nation yet still love and honor the nations we came from. What else is St. Patrick's Day parade? How many Greek flags fly in Chicago's Greek Town? How many Italian flags in Boston's North End?

Not all Republicans are xenophobic haters. Many of them could learn a thing or two from Jeb Bush.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:53 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  He obvously hates America. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    so we can expect the Righties to attack him in how many days hours?

  •  But even so, that doesn't mean we like him. (6+ / 0-)

    Kossacks: a large population of Medieval exegetes who each day grapple with the fabulistic opportunities of the early third milennium.

    by DCDemocrat on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:56:01 PM PDT

    •  Isn't that kind of a silly disclaimer? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mullibok, Avila, DCDemocrat, diplomatic

      Sheesh- heaven forbid one of us Kossacks actually admires one particular aspect of a Republican or Bush family member.

      I remember the content of this post from Kos's book, and I really thought it was a memorable part, although more context here would be nice.

      Idea:No Blood for Oil. Action:I use Biodiesel. site blog

      by KumarP on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:02:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Kind of? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Carnacki, MasonLee

        Surely I must have a reputation on daily kos of never doing anything half way.  Only kind of silly?  Come now, KumarP, you know me better than that.

        Kossacks: a large population of Medieval exegetes who each day grapple with the fabulistic opportunities of the early third milennium.

        by DCDemocrat on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:51:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well (4+ / 0-)

    I am half-Chilean, but I see myself as an American first. I think immigrants who do want to become citizens should be Americans first. I'm not saying they shouldn't speak their language or keep some of their customs, but they should be encouraged to see themselves as Americans--and not citizens of their previous lands.

  •  Shhh! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mickey, AaronInSanDiego, diplomatic

    Dont give them any ideas! Republicans are this close to "Jeb in 2008"

    •  He'd never make it out of the primaries, IMHO. (0+ / 0-)
      1. Xenophobes wouldn't vote for him; he married a Hispanic immigrant and is completely fluent in Spanish.  This would get beyond the "oh good, he'll win over some Hispanic votes" territory into "oh shit, he's going to make our kids learn Spanish and fire all American service workers so that Mexicans can have their jobs."
      1. If fundamentalist Protestants had a better choice, they might choose that over Jeb simply because Jeb is a convert to Catholicism.
      1. At this rate, do you really think they'd vote for another Bush?  The administration is such an albatross around the neck of the party that the Republican candidate for Senate in New Jersey didn't want to be photographed with Cheney.
      1. Health activists beware.  Fidel Castro says that Jeb is fat.

      DRAFT BRUCE -- the pro-Springsteen bumper stickers!

      by iCaroline on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:22:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yea, Bush 12 consecutive years of 'Bush' (0+ / 0-)

        would be too much to take.

        Jeb's gonna have to wait his turn... let a few elections go by.

        We are no longer represented.

        by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:23:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  meant to say 'but 12' (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          geesh I'm all Bushed out.

          We are no longer represented.

          by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:34:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  will never happen (0+ / 0-)

          way too much scandal in his family. His wife and kids, that is. See  here and here and oh yeah, here

          Crime: It's a Bush Family Pastime.

          "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted"

          by donailin on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:25:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Could happen (0+ / 0-)

            Scandal didn't stop the current one from taking the presidency. Blame it on the voting machines or whatever, the fact is many people voted for him, twice.

            I personally would not want another sibling or another generation of Bush in office. But I wouldn't doubt that it would be attempted. Eerily reminiscent of the three generations of Somozain Nicaragua.

            •  George Bush (0+ / 0-)

              did not have half the "family" scandal that Jeb does. His son was sexing it up with an underage girl in a parking lot. His daughter has mutliple busts of controlled substances.

              I'm telling ya, he will not run. His kids are total liabilities.

              "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted"

              by donailin on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:45:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  ew. (0+ / 0-)

                That's pretty bad. underage girl in the parking lot? dude. I knew about some of the other stuff but that's is scandalous. And I thought it was bad that his wife was not declaring things she brought back from out of the country (basically, smuggling!)

            •  And how about this (0+ / 0-)

              could we please have a few years with someone not named "Clinton" or "Bush" running the country?

              Would that be totally out of the question, or shall I just return to the reprogramming center now...

  •  Well he does have the 'little brown ones.' (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, Brubs, nonnie9999

    Isn't that what Poppy Bush said of Jeb's children?

      •  snark wrapped in a crunchy truth coating (8+ / 0-)
        poppy DID utter that incomprehensively stupid thing about his grandchildren.  '88 campaign, i think.  i remember actually feeling embarassed for him for him at the time. it was astonishing.
        •  at least he didn't call them Goobers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          homo neurotic

          We are no longer represented.

          by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:18:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  or beaners (0+ / 0-)

            that was a common one thrown around in elementary school.  I remember going home to ask my dad what it meant, and having a "talk" with the kid who said it the next afternoon, at three, on the playground.  

            Good times...

            •  Carlos Mencia (0+ / 0-)
              a buffonish comedian who's trying to bring that word back in style.  He would probably say he's trying to devalue it's impact.

              by the way, what's wrong with beans.  I'm puerto rican and YES DAMNIT I love beans and rice. heh.

              We are no longer represented.

              by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:13:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)
              Been there, done that. Where DID you grow up? Myself, I grew up in Round Rock, Tx. I was the ONLY kid in my elementary school with black hair and brown skin. I moved up from Donna. Up until then, I just sort of assumed the whole world was brown, Brady Bunch reruns notwithstanding.

              Nowdays, I occasionally get called a "coconut". It can be a complement or an insult, depending on who said it. But regardless, when its said, someone is passing judgement over me based on my heritage and culture.

              •  I grew up in Dallas (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                and Houston.  In Dallas we lived in a majority Mexican neighborhood, but once we moved out to the suburbs things were quite different.  My sisters are dark haired, dark-skinned.  I am much lighter than they are, and avoided a lot of problems by saying "hispanic".  It wasn't until I was older, in my teens, that I was able to proudly claim to be mexican.  I can't tell you how often I would be sitting at a party or with a group of people I didn't know well and someone would tell a mexican joke, or throw the word "wetback" in to the mix.  It wasn't until they heard my last name, or someone told them that they would then apologize and tell me that they're not "really racist", just kidding around.  that sort of humor never sat well with me, go figure.  

                •  Wow, how similar (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  I lived in Dallas for a couple of years in my teens and had the exact same experience at parties.

                  I've always been the phantom latino -- able to witness what people really say about Hispanics when they don't think there are any there.

                  Unfortunately I've lost several friendships over it because sometimes even when they knew I was Hispanic they'd forget and say stupid things anyway.

                  Even broke up with a girlfriend of 3 years once I found out her whole family joked around that way! yikes.

                  Hey! That wasn't very...

                  by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:16:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  much ado (0+ / 0-)

      They are (or were, at the time) little, and no doubt still are "brown".  So what?  If race doesn't matter, race doesn't matter - but it doesn't mean you stop noticing it.  If people want to take his adoration and turn it into something bad, fine, they can - you can do that with just about anything, if you try hard enough.  But it rather misses the point.

      Especially here, by the way, where Kos views white men as "pasty".  If that's OK, then surely so is what Elder Bush said.

  •  Outstanding (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    homo neurotic, lgmcp

    Let the pundits talk their way our of this.

    Exact Knowledge is the antidote to dogma.

    by healing one on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:58:51 PM PDT

  •  Credit where credit's due, I guess (5+ / 0-)

    I enjoyed Lou Dobbs on The Daily Show trying to weasel out of the comment he made on his own show that there should be no St. Patrick's Day parade or celebrations in this country, nor should any other country's flag be represented at any time.  Heh.

    "I think we miss that touch so much that we crash into each other, just so we can feel something."

    by Nancy in LA on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:59:38 PM PDT

  •  So in all the flag waving arguments (17+ / 0-)

    my question is: Why are so many of these people ok with the flag of the Confederate States of America being flown and incorporated into state flags?

    A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.

    by Webster on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 01:59:55 PM PDT

    •  Why are so many 'liberals' (7+ / 0-)

      uncomfortable with the Mexican flag?  

      I haven't seen so many KOSsacks mouthing rightwing propaganda since right before the elections in Lebanon.  


      •  Something tells me... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        artifex, lgmcp

        ...that if I was waving the Italian flag nobody would care. It's my heritage but it doesn't push any Xenophobic buttons. This century.

        *IMPEACH!* But First: Censure!

        by MichaelPH on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:30:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  'When Johnny goes over the top... (0+ / 0-)

          keep your eye on that [little brown?] WOP

          You mean like that?  Yeah, WW I was almost 100 years ago.

          •  Yep... (0+ / 0-)

   high school friends teased me with the "wop" thing...
            Italians--even worse--Sicilians, we were last century's Hispanics, cause, see we're all lazy and troublemakers who just wanna have babies... /stereotypes

            *IMPEACH!* But First: Censure!

            by MichaelPH on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:37:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Um, the term 'wop' came about because it (0+ / 0-)

            was short for "With Out Papers", which most of the Italian immigrants didn't have when they arrived at Ellis Island. They just got on a boat and came on over.  Apparently, the Italian bureaucracy was not as efficient then as it is now..ok, you guys, stop laughing, it is much better these days!!..and most of the immigrants came away with no papers of any kind, health certificates, etc. So any immigrant that entered the country without papers had WOP chalked on their coat. Then they were processed and officially arrived if they passed the quarantine and health check.

            What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

            by Demfem on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:29:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I'll tell ya right now (0+ / 0-)

          One day when (God-willing)I move to Italy and live out my senior years (if I get to have any), I sure as hell aint bringing my American flag with me. But that's only because I am not jingoistic or nationalistic even though I'm Italian and Irish.   The only flag I like is the one that reads "PACE!" which are abundant in Italy, btw. Have only seen a few here outside the beltway.


          "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted"

          by donailin on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:34:16 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Most of the posts I've seen, (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        johnny rotten, firenze, lgmcp, Testwizard

        like those in the discussion this morning, weren't hostile to the Mexican flag or to its use as a symbol of cultural pride among Mexican-Americans.

        A lot of us just wonder if having it figure prominently as a political symbol in a US debate over US policy is very wise or effective.

      •  The real question is ... (0+ / 0-)

        ... why are so many liberals comfortable with anyone waving any flag? I'd carry a United Nations flag to a rally anyday -- piss off the right AND proclaim myself a citizen of the world ;)


    •  Oh, now that's a good question (0+ / 0-)
      Opening a Pandora's box there by bringing that up, but then again, wouldn't it be an interesting question for Mike Stark to ask a few wingnuts?
    •  hell... (0+ / 0-)

      I still find it funny that so many of the wingnut bastards who venerate a symbol of treason like the goddamned Confederate flag are the same ones who try to dictate the idea of patriotism to the rest of America.

      Whenever i see a Rebel flag, my first thought besides "inbred" is "potentially insurgent wingnut bastard"

    •  they were trying to get a confederate history (0+ / 0-)

      license plate in florida "sons of the confederates" kind of thing. Jeb said (paraphrased here) that while it's good to remember our past, he just doesn't think a license plate is the place to do that. He can't run again, so this should make for an interesting debate among the fl gov elections.

      We have no future because our present is too volatile. We only have risk management. The spinning of the given moments scenario. Pattern Recognition. ~W. Gibson

      by Silent Lurker on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:24:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Jeb Bush (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    greyfox, lgmcp, CW Wisconsin

    Loves corporations, cheap labor and labor arbitrage too.
    Any of these Corpocrats know to never wave the Wal-Mart flag.

    by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:00:18 PM PDT

    •  Hmm (0+ / 0-)
      he also loves his wife who is latina.
      Maybe all of the above is most accurate.

      We are no longer represented.

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:18:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the whole race card/flag (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        thing is a big fat red herring in my view...

        People are not reading the bills, the provisions, the labor arbitrage clauses, the impact on wages, ideas to tie in "guest worker" permaslave Visas to wages and so on.

        yawn on the whole topic over here.

        by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:26:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  so why are you reading this diary (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lgmcp, balancedscales

          if it makes you yawn...why are you... (ah nevermind)

          The issue involves everything you stated AS WELL AS ethnicity.  Aspects of the Republican party are insisting on making that part of the conversation and their stereotypes/charges/misinformation must be addressed by those of us who have a stake in it.
          "Race card" is a term I despise.  It makes it sound like it's all just a big game.  For many of us who are Hispanic and deal with epithets and dirty looks, etc... we do get concerned about some of the discussions taking place.

          I would love nothing more than if this whole immigration debate was confined to just those legitimate economic issues.  But the reality is different sometimes.

          We are no longer represented.

          by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:33:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The term 'race card' (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            is used to justify their xenophobia and racism.  Just because you don't believe you're a racist and you "have a black or mexican friend" doesn't mean that you don't have those feelings deep down inside, residual effects from centuries of institutionalized racism and bigotry.  The term "race card" is offensive.  

            •  nope (0+ / 0-)

              I'm sorry but as I comment back a major fight by the Democrats which I diary is rolling off the screen...
              with pretty much no attention.

              so while you call anyone who says anything about US jobs is now a racist and this is a red herring which it is...

              people are not even supporting their own party when it comes to trying to save US jobs.

              It's easy to call people doesn't have to read or  understand macroeconomics, labor economics or pay any attention to the realities of domestic economic realities and fundamental facts on a labor market.


              by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:08:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I understand your point (0+ / 0-)

                and I liked your diary, but I stand by my views on the term.  I think it's dismissive.

              •  also, regarding your site (0+ / 0-)

                I agree with the principles of your group and think that what you are trying to accomplish is a noble and worthy cause.  I don't see how attacking the immigrants is the answer to the problem.  Let's target the greedy corporate owners and governments that steal from their citizens and rob them of the ability to earn a living in their own country.  

                •  ty (0+ / 0-)

                  I agree, and that's why this whole thing is a diversionary tactic.

                  Probably you are not aware that the race card/flags/hate groups are being covered on the other side also...believe it or not there are Hispanic "hate groups"/separatist groups out there and that's making it to the conservative blogs.  While Dailykos puts on the front page the flag thing..the conservative side is ranting and raving on the flag thing and the hate/"lets take back our land" Hispanic fringe" groups.

                  What's happening is no one is actually analyzing the legislation to stop labor arbitrage...on either side.

                  Case in point is the H-1B Visa...going completely under the radar and if that increase passes it's pretty much the death knell to US engineers.

                  So, please realize I'm saying this to anybody who posts this kind of crud, every side.  

                  It's a hugely complex problem, labor economics..
                  (there's reason it takes grad school to get a handle on it!) and it is possible to give a "pathway to citizenship" to people who have been here, established and so forth, be fair to those already "in the queue" and stop labor arbitrage...

                  but it takes a lot of diligence.  

                  Lou Dobbs today said on his show, "why not make it a felony for employers to use illegal labor".

                  Now, damn straight...and it's so difficult to get through the race bait/flag thing that the damn DOL
                  is not enforcing labor law at all..

                  and much of the Senate bill will just keep the status quo...

                  no one is promoting the idea of truly identifying legal labor, tying guest worker Visas to wages directly (if wages greatly increase it indicates a true labor shortage)...

                  and discussing future legislation to deal with the labor arbitrage aspects to the trade agreements.

                  Document fraud is a major component in this and truly civil rights people need to be involved and we need a system that actually works, will not allow fraudulent documents or id theft to happen, yet does not violate privacy rights..

                  not even being discussed right now.

                  Why I say it's a red herring is, believe this or not, there are employer sanctions in the house bill and there is some discussion of adding more...
                  but those provisions probably are not going to be supported due to the emotionalism and diversion
                  due to raising everyone's hairs on the racist/flag/hate groups rhetoric.

                  It stops people from thinking and puts them into an emotional knee jerk reaction.


                  by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:42:56 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    this is two seperate issues.  The outsourcing that is going to India and other parts of the world, the sending of United States service and technology jobs, is a different issue, in my opinion.  The hypocritical discrimination towards Latin immigrants is a different issue.  I'm not going to say "they're taking jobs Americans won't do", but I think that the hit the engineering sector has taken has very little to do with Mexico, El Salvador, etc.

                    Racism is being thrown in the air to make people watch it, taking their eyes off of other issues, on that we agree.  My issue was with the term "race card".  As a hispanic I find it offensive and dismissive.  However, it's a term that we all attach a definition to, and mine just happens to be negative.  

                    I agree, the fact that the work visas have been increased to 115,000 (i think), without even a word from the msm is outrageous.  

                    The term "race card" makes me have an emotional, knee-jerk reaction.  Hey, I'm human.

                    •  ok (0+ / 0-)

                      give me another way to say "raising hairs on back of your neck" as a diversion technique and I'll use it.



                      by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:59:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  deal (0+ / 0-)

                        I'll work on that one.  

                        i found the stories regarding the personal effect of outsourcing much more effective than attacking immigrants.  

                        I was moved by the stories.  Thanks.

                        •  I do my best (0+ / 0-)

                          Believe me, I have banned many a racist over there...
                          it's a very tough issue labor economics...very tough because we're dealing with people...
                          and things can get distorted very easily...
                          but yes, I am a "bleeding heart liberal" very committed to equality and diversity.  I wouldn't be on these blogs and if I trolled over in the conservative blogs, I'd be outed in probably a day or two over discrimination, affirmative action and pro choice.


                          by BobOak on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:08:25 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  hey (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            civil discourse, being able to discuss opposing viewpoints in a way that benefits us all, is what this is all about.  

                          •  also (0+ / 0-)

                            call it what it is...

                            an unfair and unethical way to cloak the true problems in an emotional issue.  They're not using "the race card", they're hiding they're evil deeds and intentions and strapping them on to the backs of minorities, in order to get knee-jerk reactions.

                            doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well as race card, but it doesn't seem quite as dismissive to racism and discrimination.

  •  Excellent post... (0+ / 0-)

    similar to mine here....

    I'm a little less polite than Kos. These assholes are so busying kissing racist ass that they have shot themselves in the foot. Hard to visualise but I think you get what I mean.

    "Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing."

    by Nestor Makhnow on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:00:19 PM PDT

  •  I don't know about learning anything from Jeb... (6+ / 0-)

    ...but maybe the folks who do his commercials know a thing or two about - making campaign commercials?

    (hint - emotions, not facts)

    "...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

    by RubDMC on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:00:35 PM PDT

  •  JEB BUSH FOR PRESIDENT IN `08!!!! (13+ / 0-)

    Oh, wait...

    What the fuck am I saying?

    Nevermind.  Ignore me...

    Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

    by Bob Johnson on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:00:42 PM PDT

  •  HAH! (7+ / 0-)

    Jeb understood the importance of our nation's immigrants


    The only thing that Jeb Bush understood was the importance of the nation's immigrants VOTE.

    •  Think about it.. that's the way it should be (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      In a representative Democracy, always a good thing when leaders are forced to care about the voters.

      The bigger problem in my view is when they pander to elite/corporate lobbyists.

      We are no longer represented.

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:16:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  FORCED to care about the voters? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The leaders are SUPPOSED to care about the voters...

        and not just for their votes. Their CARE should extend past election day.

        •  Yes they are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          or did you really think I believed they should be forced, but not supposed to care? ;)

          Just being realistic... "supposed to" in politics isn't something to hang your hat on.

          We are no longer represented.

          by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:27:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  True... (0+ / 0-)

          but do they?  Or is it the rare occurance when a leader cares past the vote getting stage, before it's off to pander to the corporations and other large intest groups?

          Sometimes we have to FORCE them to care.

          "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-4.75, -7.13)

          by AUBoy2007 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:28:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  American and Isreali politics blur together... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    artifex, Webster, lgmcp

    ...when the fears of Mexican and Palestinian birth rates lead both countries to believe the only way to preserve their cultures is to build huge walls and enforce draconian policies restricting movement, even though both the United States and Israel are both completely dependent on cheap easily-exploited immigrant labor.

    "It's not selling out if you don't get paid, okay? We're not whores. When you do it for free, that's just slutty." -Wonkette -6.38/ -4.21

    by wonkydonkey on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:01:01 PM PDT

  •  He was always the smart one (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, diplomatic, AUBoy2007

    He was the one groomed for the Presidency, not the current liar-in-chief.  He knows politics better than a lot of people.

    We will appoint as...officials, only men that know the law of the realm and are minded to keep it well. -- Magna Carta, #46 (-6.25, -7.18)

    by DH from MD on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:01:24 PM PDT

    •  He at the very least pronounces Spanish (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      better than a lot of people.  Very little English accent to detect in there.  It gave me goosebumps.

      Note to self: remember, self, this guy is a thug and a prick.

    •  Godfather trilogy (0+ / 0-)

      I'm a fan of The Godfather movies, so the example that comes to mind is Fredo vs. Michael. I think we got Fredo in the oval office.

      And yes, Jeb speaks fluent Spanish, which is something Latinos need to be cautious about. Don't vote for someone because they speak your language or wave your flag.

    •  I gotta think that Jeb..... (0+ / 0-)

      ...must from time-to-time look at his brother.......and say, "Why him"? Even Republicans would privately admit that GWB is much less intelligent, would never have signed up to teach English in Mexico on a junior year abroad, was the ultimate prodigal son by goofing off, was bailed out financially more than once in business, and I doubt he would had changed his religion to marry someone.

       But besides the family's belief in primogeniture, it shows the importance of elections. In that awful year of 1994, Jeb lost to Lawton Chiles, while W was able to unseat our Ann Richards. That's probably why the GOP top brass annointed W.  

      "We *should* pay attention to that man behind the curtain"

      by Ed Tracey on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 06:06:42 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They could learn a thing or two (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    But I hope they don't. I just don't believe the Republicans will ever be anything other than the party for people who can't imagine a nation that doesn't look like Clever family clones.

  •  As a Flordian... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Avila, diplomatic, Buddha Hat

    I am hard pressed to give Jeb any credit for anything.  But if any of the above commercial was his idea, you've got to hand it to him.


    "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-4.75, -7.13)

    by AUBoy2007 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:02:41 PM PDT

    •  screw the commercial ... (0+ / 0-)
      what we really need is that kind of message delivered with a real sincerity ... something that no member of the Bush Crime Family should be able to get away with ... ... somebody really ought to register this domain name ...

      by wystler on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:16:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why knock it if it works? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Why can't we have both?  A good solid message to back up an effective emotional appeal.

        "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-4.75, -7.13)

        by AUBoy2007 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:19:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, sure, the bastard falls all over himself (5+ / 0-)

    ... kissing the asses of Latin Americans, but what about the Irish?

    Did he make one in Irish (formerly known as Gaelic) with the Irish flag waving, welcoming the Irish immigrants?

    FUCK NO!

    I cast a Guinness fart in his general direction!  (And Guinness farts are deadly...)

    Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

    by Bob Johnson on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:04:16 PM PDT

  •  Maybe Al Sharpton was right>.. (7+ / 0-)

    "When Republicans seek out minorities it is called "reaching out" when Democrats do it "it is called pandering to minorities."

    A second thought is maybe Jeb saw those 500,000 + in LA and 300,000 (+) in Chicago march for immigration reform and then thought of what Pete Wilson did for California.

  •  Kos, what about this? (10+ / 0-)

    Where did video of this waving Mexican flag come from?

    It's from a George W. Bush campaign commercial!

    •  Complete with a ghostly, subliminal (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AnthonySF, AUBoy2007

      laughing buddha...

    •  Here's the rest of his (and Kerry's) ads: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      From the Political Communication Lab at Stanford. This one is called, "Nuestro Pais, Nuestro Presidente."

    •  Then why did he deny the rights of so many... (0+ / 0-)

      to have their votes counted? He and Harris swept many African-Americans from the voter rolls. Was every vote counted?

    •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

      The difference in the fluency of George and Jeb is dramatic.

      I had never heard Jeb speak at any length, but he is clearly fluent. Meanwhile, most 6th-grade gringos languishing in Beginning Spanish can speak better than "El Idiota".

      Behind the dark veil of patriotism a nation mourns itself.

      by Espumoso on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:40:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not necessarily fluent (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        he could be what we in the language biz call "abominably fluent."  That is, able to pronounce things  to an extent not consistent with his actual knowledge.

        But boy, if he can go on like that off the cuff, he has my total linguistic admiration.

        And he's still a shit.

        •  No doubt. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rhubarb, lgmcp

          He's still a shit, but as a gringo who learned Spanish at the age of 23, I have a great deal of respect for his ability to speak Spanish.

          In my experience it is much more common to find gringos that can understand 90+%, but could never in their wildest dreams pass for a native speaker of any origin, than to find a gringo that has near perfect pronunciation, but doesn't comprehend well. It extremely rare to find someone who learned at an older age that can do both.

          FWIW, he speaks with more command of the Spanish language than Bill Richardson, who learned as a child.

          Did Jeb learn as an adult at the time of marrying his wife? Also his accent is hard for me to place, but it sounds "central mexican" to my ear...definitely not Cuban or Caribbean, or S. American for that matter.

          Behind the dark veil of patriotism a nation mourns itself.

          by Espumoso on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:23:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  he is fluent (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            during hurricane season, he gets on tv for the warnings and does them in Spanish and English. He uses very few notes while he's speaking.

            He's literate, and intelligent which makes him the most dangerous of all the Bushes

            We have no future because our present is too volatile. We only have risk management. The spinning of the given moments scenario. Pattern Recognition. ~W. Gibson

            by Silent Lurker on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:30:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sounds generic Mexican to me, too (0+ / 0-)

            like a broadcast announcer.

            I learned at age 18 and have the gift of a good ear; my accent is near-perfect.  It's been amazing to have native speakers ask me where in Mexico I'm from.  But I'm not perfectly fluent and the illusion vanishes as the conversation goes on, or if it gets really colloquial.  If J. E. B. can keep that level of chatter up, then good on him.

            But he's still a goniff.

  •  Stop the love. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ari Mistral

    I agree with your diary, Kos.  It's just very hard to like anything Jeb does.

    We'll just have to decide that it was a cynical pandering to the Hispanic population of Florida. Please?

    Who would have tought that watching "The Land Before Time (IX)- Journey to Big Water" would become a subversive act?

    by mungley on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:05:59 PM PDT

    •  I don't think so (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      artifex, mungley, CAL11 voter
      Jeb is also married to a Hispanic woman and doesn't just pander to Cubans unlike many in florida.  He goes with the big umbrella.

      Much of my family lives in Florida and they say good things.

      We are no longer represented.

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:12:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He's incredible popular... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        artifex, mungley

        back home in FL.  It's scary.  Though most polls show Floridians advising against a pres run in 08.  Maybe that's just Bush fatigue.

        As for the pandering, I think he does actually go with the big umbrella.  And even if the commercial is simply pandering, it's still damn good!

        "No government has the right to tell its citizens whom to love. The only queer people are those who don't love anybody." - Rita Mae Brown (-4.75, -7.13)

        by AUBoy2007 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:18:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Okay then. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It's just hard to accept that the President's brother is differently backward that George W.

        Who would have tought that watching "The Land Before Time (IX)- Journey to Big Water" would become a subversive act?

        by mungley on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:45:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What would Jeb have to gain from this ad? Hmm... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Roadbed Guy, Existentialist

    There is "great homage to the immigrant culture", then there is electoral pandering. I believe you are confusing the two.

  •  Hey, Kos (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    It's a little late for April Fool's.

  •  Jeb in 2008? (0+ / 0-)

    Georges smarter brother.  I wonder if he is more independent minded than puppet king.

  •  excellent point (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tlh lib, diplomatic

    an important issue and Jeb gets it just right.    

  •  The Bushes aren't xenophobes (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buddha Hat

    One of the few things I still like about George Jr. is that he at least pretends to attack xenophobia.

    The problem is that he's run the country into the ground and left us vulnerable to all sorts of awful -isms and phobias.

  •  What flag (0+ / 0-)

    was Terri Schiavo flying?  (and don't say skull & crossbones)

    Flags, pennants, jerseys, t-shirts & hats with corporate logos, little allegators on polo shirts...

    All of these items should be innocuous, but, as Whitman said about "...the mountains and rivers that gird them round about,"

    "[they]would all be blank conditions of matter if man did not fling his divinity about them."

  •  OT/ Zinni on Hardball - Live n/t (0+ / 0-)

    "I don't care whether he is a pig fucker, just that he denies it..." -Lyndon B. Johnson

    by lobezno on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:08:10 PM PDT

  •  am I the only one? (3+ / 0-)

    ...who keeps clicking on the play button expecting the video to play? It took me a few tries to figure out it was screen cap.

  •  And that's one of the reasons... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ...Jeb has no shot at the GOP nomination in 2008. They'll be wanting another puppet, you see.  Jeb has too much integrity for them.  (And yes, I know how little that really is...)

    "...the big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart." -- Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

    by Roddy McCorley on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:08:54 PM PDT

  •  New Drudge headline.... (10+ / 0-)

    "Huge Mexican Flag Tops Lefty Blog Daily Kos!"


    ...but for three years I had roses and I apologized to nobody.

    by sagesource on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:09:33 PM PDT

  •  As much as I despise Bush (4+ / 0-)

    I could only imagine how much uglier this immigration debate would be right now if his family was on the side of the rabid wingnuts on this issue.

    Sure they may be looking out for corporate interests, but I do believe there is an actual degree of sincerity to their position, especially Jeb's.

    We are no longer represented.

    by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:10:49 PM PDT

  •  xenophobic haters? (0+ / 0-)

    Once again we embrace the mis-direction, adhere to the nuance instead of identifying the problem in order to seek out a solution.

    When will we ever learn to reason?

  •  Finn over here (0+ / 0-)

    Flag was on the car before I gave it to my parents.  It'd be nice to know that everyone appreciates their cultures no matter how far back they go.

    Oh, and Way to Go Ashtabula!!  We landed FinnFest for 2007!!

  •  GOP: Dems weak in the war on plaque (0+ / 0-)

    Mehlman to unveil the new GOP expose of Democratic weakness.

    Certainly a newsworthy affair.

  •  Jeb follows George (0+ / 0-)

    According to this story in the LA Times, George delivered much the same message during his re-run for governor in 1998.
    Maybe I didn't vote for the guy but he has it right on immigration.
    I notice that the Democrats have been noticeably quiet on immigration ...

  •  Nice catch (0+ / 0-)

    The way so many talking heads have adopted this frame makes one wonder about how organized the right wing media has become. It also really speaks to the weakness of their arguments. This frame is so blatantly pathetic, it exposes that this is the best crap these guys could come up with. It is truly an insult to the intelligence of Americans.

  •  Pragmatism (0+ / 0-)

    Last time I made a comment on this I was troll-rated into oblivion, but here goes....

    Advocating an open-door policy re. immigration is a sure-fire way to lose an election.  At least for the next cycle or two.

    Kos, the right-wing noise machine is going to start telling people the title of your book has to do with immigration.

    A pessimist sees a glass half empty. I see a paper cup with holes punched in it.

    by Paper Cup on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:23:34 PM PDT

    •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

      Kos, the right-wing noise machine is going to start telling people the title of your book has to do with immigration.

      I doubt it.

      Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13

      by Preston on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:33:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Look at California (0+ / 0-)

      That is what happens when a party scapegoats immigrants. It may pull out one election victory, but it will earn the spite of the fastest growing population. Pete Wilson's xenophobic re-election campaign obliterated the California GOP. If they pulled the same sort of thing in Florida (which is not out of the question) Florida could become reliably Democratic. But Jeb is smart enough to know that reaching out to Hispanics is a good way to win elections.

      If your name was George Walker instead of George Walker Bush, your candidacy would be a joke.

      by dole4pineapple on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 07:38:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And don't forget (0+ / 0-)

    the Confederate flag!

    inspire change...don't back down

    by missliberties on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:23:44 PM PDT

  •  No, not all Republicans are xenophobic... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ari Mistral

    ...just the opportunistic, white, fat, Protestant, evangelical, ignorant, rural-pick-up-truck-driving, affluent suburb-SUV-driving-ones and their ilk are...just like the ones Jeb Bush uses and needs every so often...

  •  so what does all this really mean... (0+ / 0-)

    ...your vote won't count in any language in Florida.

    El Diablo = El Dieboldo.

  •  No olvides 'Tejanos Con Bush'! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ari Mistral, balancedscales

    Great point on the flag thing.

    W certainly had some ads that spoke directly to the Tejano community here.  

    Going back even farther, George HW Bush in his failed 1972 Senate run had the obligatory "Tejanos Con Bush" branch of his campaign.  

    But again, the whole immigration thing is akin to the Republicans straw man pushback against Gay Marriage - any time there is trouble (censure, bad war, corruption, shooting man in face), go to the politics of division, turn EVERYBODY off, and rob the cookie jar.  

    They are up to something, and it can't be good.  

    George W Bush - Plame Duck President

    by T u g on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:29:58 PM PDT

  •  Italian flags (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peterborocanuck, Ari Mistral
    I have personally seen Italian flags on Broad Street in South Philly - not just on the houses, but on the utility poles owned or regulated by the government, AND flying on the City Hall flagpole in Jersey City, my own eyes.

    The melting pot is not all it's cracked up to be.  A lot of "melted" Americans wind up identifying under an American definition of "white," losing culture to gain socioeconomic race privileges.  My ancestors were German, Scottish, English, Irish and French and they gave it all up to become white.

    The right never made Reagan apologize for being Irish.  So fly the flags - all of them, on St. Patrick's Day and every other day - and pass the mole.

    Recovering Libertarian, politically sober since October 16, 2005

    by tbrucegodfrey on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:31:00 PM PDT

    •  There is an Irish flag on a nearby street to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      To say nothing of the hundreds of privately owned flags of other nations near where I live.

      Once again it is a case of Republican busybodyism: NO FLAGWAVING!

      (I have to think they must be digging their own grave: it was one thing when they were telling you who to have sex with and how long to live- but I feel like a Republican is going to tell me what's for dinner tonight and how much salt I can use.)

      Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13

      by Preston on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:57:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Federal Hill (0+ / 0-)

      in Providence RI.. There's a few Italian flags out there.  :)

      plus, I dunno, going by the flags back in my hometown there are a LOT of folks who pledge allegiance to the republic of Dale Earnhardt (RIP).

  •  Oh puh-LEEEZE! This is about VOTES (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ari Mistral, Existentialist

    Unlike the xenophobes that dominate the Republican Party, Jeb understood the importance of our nation's immigrants. On the ad, a succession of Latin American flags wave -- Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Colombian, Dominican, Venezuelan, and NIcaraguan, before concluding with a flag of the state of Florida.

    Look, I'm with everyone who didn't want to turn priests and children into felons and all the junk in that crazy immigration bill, but come ON now! Am I on the right web site? Did you guys check your suspicious natures at the door?? It's all about VOTES. Jebbie and the R candidates for Prez gotta do SOMETHING to replace the Castro-hating Cubans who are ageing out of their voting block, and Dubai-ya's whole approach to illegal immigration is "what's good for the grower is good for the country me."

    There is nothing altruistic about this whatsoever.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who will watch the watchers?)

    by The Crusty Bunker on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:32:02 PM PDT

  •  Woow! (0+ / 0-)

    As much as I hate them Bushits (and I do! No apologies required!) the man does have a surprising dominance of the Spanish language! He won't get my vote, but I'm sure that scores a few more brownie points beyond little Havana! Like the Puertorican middle class heavens of Orlando, Kissimie and Tampa.

    Why these places, it's a Disney World thing, we don't talk about it, the same way the Klingons don't talk about why they are so different in OTS and NextGen!

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Seneca

    by Ralfast on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:32:43 PM PDT

  •  Who has any problem with legal immigrants? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Everyone want their votes! As GW, said, holding down three jobs is "uniquely American" -- and having vacations constantly is uniquely his right!  

  •  It's just cynical Republicans looking for votes (0+ / 0-)

    There is actually a formula for figuring out what Republicans - especially any Bush - is doing when they seem to take "compassionate" positions towards Mexicans or any of their positions.  They are looking to put together enough votes to get in office so that they can pass their true program which is: getting tax cuts for rich people.  The "funny" thing is that to do so they appeal to a number of groups (Southerners, Midwesterners, anti-abortion, fundamentalists, militarists, anti-gay, anti-affirmative action, pro-gun and other unsophisticated or one-issue voters) whose actual economic interests are generally hurt by giving tax cuts to the rich, since most of these people are not rich. The Democrats at one time had a lot of these groups in their coalition, and that made a bit more economic sense: at least the economic interest of these generally uneducated, lower-class whites was represented by the Democratic program of progressive taxation and equalizing government benefits. However, Democrats at some point attracted enough people with an education that a lot of these irrational racists and homophobes just started to be a problem with other members of the coalition. Immigration is still an issue without a clear rational response, but some Republicans are obviously seeing Mexican immigrants as an uneducated group that can be easily manipulated by slogans and induced to vote against their true economic interests.  Notice in the appeal of Jeb Bush to Mexicans he talks about "home" but not about issues of their material existence: jobs, pay, worker safety.  

  •  Politically Speaking (0+ / 0-)

    It's not savvy to express your desire to become an American by waving the flags of another nation.

    Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13

    by Preston on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:35:05 PM PDT

    •  Arguably, its necessary (0+ / 0-)

      Nothing wrong with keeping your history and being proud of it. It unites and strengthens people. What's "American" if not a mixture of cultures anyway? For example, track down the origins of the word "savvy". These flags are a part of everybody whether we are aware of it or not.

      •  Flags (0+ / 0-)
        I have no arguments with national flags- Puerto Rico Day, West Indian Day, St. Patrick's Day, and Columbus Day are all great fun in New York.  But those aren't people trying to make an argument that they should be included as Americans- they are asserting their national pride.

        In the cases of those protesting harsh treatment of immigrants - particularly undocumented- it is taken for granted by their opponents that they are proud of their nationality.  If they wanted to strengthen their case they would attempt to show they are at least as proud of their new homeland.

        Economic Left/Right: -3.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.13

        by Preston on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 07:42:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting familly... (0+ / 0-)

    ...those Bushes. One brother, Jeb, speaks two languages--English and Spanish. Another one, George, doesn't even speak ONE language!

    Pero a mi no me gusta ni un Bush ni el otro.

    "Fear is a preparation for failure." Robert Fripp

    by OneBob54 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:38:09 PM PDT

  •  I never thought I'd say it... (0+ / 0-)

    ...but good on Jeb for having a clear view.  At least he doesn't fall into the trap of being a racist ass whenever someone brings up the topic of immigration, as so many others of his party do.

    Problem is, can we really believe him on it?  He is a Bush, after all.

    Left-Hand Play knows we hold the good cards in the left hand. It's time we play them.

    by Damian the Left Hand Player on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:42:06 PM PDT

  •  He Doesn't Fool Me (0+ / 0-)

    Jeb Bush has always been a lying oportunivore.

    You can't trust a single thing he says or has ever said.

    Anyone who has followed his "career" knows better than to give him one iota of credability.

    This flag waving ad is totally cynical and designed only to get money and votes.

    "The Buddhist was pissed... and it wasn't the first time."

    by The Angry Buddhist on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:45:22 PM PDT

  •  conf&#237;eme en (0+ / 0-)

    Yeah, Republicans could learn to lie to Hispanics in their traditional language, then screw all their interests. Especially when he backs up the xenophobes behind the Minutemen and the other racists who divide second class citizens between "white" and "nonwhite", to sacrifice to first class corporate citizens.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:45:32 PM PDT

  •  i live in Pueblo, Colorado... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, lgmcp

    ...A nice feature of our community is the Historic Arkansas Riverwalk of Pueblo. Flags from all the different countries that held this land before it became part of the Louisiana Purchase grace the Riverwalk.

    This is a very ethnically diverse community.

    The Pueblo Chieftain debuted an 18-day special series on Immigration yesterday.

    The radical invents views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them. -- Mark Twain

    by FemiNazi on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:47:47 PM PDT

  •  We can learn a lot more about Jeb (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    and his compassion for folks living in and coming from Central America and the Carribean.  For example, taking out ads (through other organizations)in Nicaragua and El Salvador during recent elections, warning voters that if the "wrong" candidate gets elected (the one not favored by the Bush Administration), the status of family members living in the U.S. and the remittances sent back home from workers in the U.S. would be in jeopardy.  Nice.

    "While there is a lower class, I am in it. While there is a criminal element, I am of it. While there is a soul in prison, I am not free." - Eugene Debs

    by matthewc on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:48:44 PM PDT

  •  Learn? Yeah. Disingenuity... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    We have found...
    The health care our families deserve

    Line up in the emergency room, and participate in American Universal Health Care.

    "I desire what is good. Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor." King George III

    by ogre on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 02:59:38 PM PDT

  •  Norwegian pride on display here . . . (0+ / 0-)

    Well, the Norski heritage of my part of Wisconsin must irk the living hell out of Rush Oxycontin Limbaugh, for the locals fly their Norwegian flags all over the place.  Yet, no people I know are more patriotic than the country folk in these here parts.

    The big May festival is coming up here in Westby.  I hope the celbration of Norwegian heritage does not include an odious display of the Norwegian flag.  Rove might show up and handle it.

    If he does, I'll make him eat ludefisk and make love to a sheep.  The former would bother him but not the latter.

  •  Other GOP'ers could learn from Jeb... (0+ / 0-)

    ...but I'm not sure I want them to.

    I live in California, and I saw what happened when the wingnuts in my state exploited the hysteria over illegal aliens a decade ago.  In 1994, Gov. Pete Wilson was running for re-election, and that year they voted on Proposition 187 to crack down on illegals.  In the very short term it paid off for the wingnuts, as Wilson got re-elected and Prop 187 passed, but further on down the road it did major damage to the California GOP by driving large numbers of Latino voters into the Democratic Party.  California has been uniformly Democratic ever since.

    Latinos are a very big voting bloc in America already and still growing (in fact, they outnumber blacks already), and as of right now they are not monolithic and they're not necessarily in the Dems' pocket.  If the GOP wants to do with Latinos nationwide what they did in California, that's fine by me.

  •  perfect? (0+ / 0-)

    I think your hang-up on "perfect Spanish" is ridiculous.  You don't learn it unless you try it, and you don't try it without making plenty of mistakes.  Moreover, you don't need to ever perfect it, so long as you make your point understood - that's the beauty, and indeed the purpose, of language.  Anyway, it's not as though every last Democrat (or even a sizable minority) speak Spanish at all, much less perfectly.

    As to that - what is imperfect Spanish?  Which dialect do you demand, and which accent?  And do you expect the same of native Spanish speakers speaking in English (or German, or Japanese, come to that)?  Of course not.

    Language is a means of communication.  It can be elevated to more - but very few use their native language artfully, so that's rather beside the point, especially in this conversation.  

    Tons of people in every nation on this Earth are no-doubt butchering a second (or third, or fourth) language, even as I type this.  And so what.  So long as they aren't saying "I have a gun and intend to shoot you" when really they mean "pass the noodles", no harm, no foul.

    Not all Republicans are xenophobic haters.  And not all Democrats aren't.  Neither party serves itself (or the nation) by pretending that is pure, that it, alone, has access to the high road.  

    If the shoe were on the other foot, I know you'd agree.  Such is partisanship - and such is why the extremes in both parties do such a good job of turning off (and tuning out) the middle.

    •  'hang up'? whoa (0+ / 0-)

      Methinks that besides putting palabras in the the diarists boca, you have una tortilla muy grande on your shoulder.


      This signature line confers blanket acknowledgment and correction of any tpyo's that may or may not exist in the above text.

      by oregon blue on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:40:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The more I hear and read (0+ / 0-)

    about this "only fly the American flag" Dobbsian horseshit the madder I get.

    How dare these jackasses say that a nation of immigrants should forget where they came from to assimilate into the cookie cutter masses of homogenized Americans.

    I'd like to borrow a gesture from Supreme Court Justice Vaffunculo right about now.

    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. - Edward Abbey


    by boadicea on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:12:24 PM PDT

  •  Winston Wolf Said it Best... (0+ / 0-)

    Well, let's not start sucking each other's d****s just yet.

    It's morning in America! People are waking it's time to clean house.

    by JDRhoades on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:12:32 PM PDT

  •  Between Jeb and W. (0+ / 0-)
    And their traitorous Mexican-flag-flying shenanigans, this might end up ruining  Take the American Flag to Work Day.

    D-Day, the newest blog on the internet (at the moment of its launch)

    by dday on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:13:49 PM PDT

  •  And the Colossus weeped... (0+ / 0-)

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles.  From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    With silent lips.  "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

    by Emma Lazarus, New York City, 1883

    Much has been written of these immortalized words.  A fourth generation New York poet of Portugese-Jewish descent, Emma Lazarus, composed this statement to raise funds for the pedastal of the not yet erected statue.  At the time the statue was commissioned, the piece was not intended to speak to immigration, but rather toward the Franco-American commitment to liberty.  However, the meaning of the statue was altered in 1903, when the poem was inscribed on a bronze plaque and erected at the base of the monument.  The New England poet, and Ambassador to England, James Russell Lowell, wrote to Ms. Lazarus: "Your sonnet gives its subject a raison d'être which it wanted before quite as much as it wanted a pedestal."  It is clear from national memory that this interpretation has won out, possibly because it most agrees with the image of America we wish to believe in.

    Regardless of that image, we have never really determined the reality of our vision of America.  Drawn to the promise that America held, immigration reached a crescendo in the first decade of the 20th century.  As it is now, there were those that were fearful of this influx.  They posited that it would hamper the United States economy, or in its most xenophobic iterations, that the ethnic make-up of the country would be irrecovably altered by the "breeding" of immigrants.  In 1892, the poet Thomas Bailey Aldrich wrote the following:

    Wide open and unguarded stand our gates,
    And through them presses a wild motley throng--
    Men from the Volga and the Tartar steppes,
    Featureless figures of the Hoang-Ho,
    Malayan, Scythian, Teuton, Kelt, and Slav,
    Flying the Old World's poverty and scorn;
    These bringing with them unknown gods and rites,
    Those, tiger passions, here to stretch their claws.
    In street and alley what strange tongues are these,
    Accents of menace alien to our air,
    Voices that once the Tower of Babel knew!
    O Liberty, white Goddess! is it well
    To leave the gates unguarded?

    From these types of sentiments, who to my ears, and with the knowledge of the future, seem ridiculous (yet now oddly familiar), came some truly horrid immigration legislation: the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Alien Contract Labor Law, the Quota Laws and the National Origins Act. What we have today in Rep. Sensenbrenner's legislation is nothing more than a reiteration of the fears of the past.

    I hope every time we are forced to relive our mistakes, that we move a little further ahead in our thinking toward the ideals I believe we all hold for our nation.  That is the question we do not ask ourselves, to what end do we move?

    To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men. -- Abraham Lincoln

    by Tripleg on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 03:14:05 PM PDT

  •  holy crap (0+ / 0-)

    A compliment for a Bush????  The end times are nigh.

  •  Immigration, flags and the Democrats (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    brn2bwild, llih, TriMt7

    Waving the Mexican flag (or the Guatamalan or Salvadoran - or any one for that matter) at a rally to protest a change in this nation's laws is like waving a red cape in front of a bull.  You don't have to be xenophobe to get extremely angry at the sight of it and the backlash against these immigrants now is all but inevitable.  All you need to do is remember what happened in 1994 with the passing of Proposition of 187 in California.  Then too, the proposition was mean-spirited and punitive, and it was behind in the polls.  But then there were huge rallies with lots of people waving Mexican flags and other foreign flags and people were just incensed.  My father, nobody's idea of a xenophobe, got so angry at the sight of it that he changed his vote right then and decided to vote for 187.

    I'm sorry, but most Americans rightly take great exception to the idea of people coming to this country illegally and then protesting a change in our laws.  And while that is bad enough, it is ten times worse that these people turn it into some sort of ethnic pride rally, rather than a rally to reinforce their desire to become Americans.  And then some people  make it worse still by accusing anyone who believes in enforcement of the borders of being a xenophobe.  Well I believe the borders need to be enforced and I take great exception to being called a xenophobe.

    Liberals and others who claim to have the interest of immigrants at heart are doing a great disservice to them by continuing to turn a blind eye to the essential difference between legal and illegal immigration.  Illegal immigration risks the lives and promotes the exploitation of the poorest, most vulnerable people in society.  There is nothing about it that liberals should be able to support.  But that doesn't seem to matter to many.  It's as if many of them think that the border itself is what's wrong.  That there shouldn't even be one.  After all, wasn't a good chunk of the West originally part of Mexico anyway?  

    A more fatuous argument would be difficult to find.

    They also do a great disservice to themselves politically.  Here again was a chance to use the Republicans' own divisions against them.  The Republicans are split between the xenophobes and those who want more immigration to keep wages down to benefit businesses.  But most Americans are not xenophobes and most Americans instinctively understand that illegal immigration depresses wages for more than just the illegal immigrants themselves.  Democrats have a chance to show they are on the side of working-class Americans whose incomes are stagnant at best.  And, as a bonus, they can paint the GOP as the party that turns a blind eye to law and order.  A twofer.  But by turning the whole illegal immigration question into a referendum of what you think of Latinos, they're in the middle of blowing it.

    The right Democratic attitude must include a commitment to reducing illegal immigration. I'll say it again: this does not make you xenophobe. That doesn't mean you have to turn all illegal immigrants into criminals or make it a felony to provide them aid.  That's simply disgusting.  But it does need to include better border enforcement.  

    There also needs to be an end to two arguments that keep popping up that are demonstrably false:

    • Illegals take the jobs Americans won't do. Not true.  Even jobs that you most closely associate with illegal immigrants, like farmwork, are mostly done by Americans.
    • Stopping illegal immigration is impossible given the strong motivation of the people who come here.  Also not true.  It will never be reduced to zero, but it can be significantly reduced from where it is now.

    Stopping or reducing illegal immigration will reduce wage pressure on the poorest Americans and will reinforce the Democratic party as the party of law.  What's not to like?

    •  If they are demonstrable, (0+ / 0-)

      why don't you share your data?  On the other hand,

      "Many opponents of immigration argue that immigrants are a drag on economic growth and depress wages. The former is untrue: the consensus among experts is that immigration offers positive, if modest, benefits to the United States economy, having similar effects as robust population growth. (It also has very large benefits for the sending country—remittances are a major source of income for, for instance, Mexico, totaling $16 billion last year.) Nor is it necessarily the case, as Paul Krugman wrote in the New York Times on Monday, that immigrants "threaten to unravel" the American welfare state. Most immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in government benefits—although it's true that financing for various safety net programs may need to be tweaked in the future to accommodate immigration flows. Moreover, increased immigration will help ensure that an aging native population in the United States can continue to afford Social Security and Medicare."

      •  All depends on what stats you want to cite (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Paul Krugman writes that the crucial difference is between skilled and unskilled immigration.  But given that the vast majority of illegal immigrants are unskilled, we can assume they are more or less synonymous.  While it's true that immigration overall may offer a modest overall benefit in terms of growth, illegal unskilled immigration has been shown to be a disaster for the poorest Americans.  According to a study by Harvard professor George Borjas, it depresses the wages of low-income Americans.

        Here's Borjas:

        The fact that some native-born workers lose from immigration implies that U.S. firms gain because they can now hire workers at lower wages. Many native-born consumers also gain because the lower labor costs lead to cheaper goods and services. In fact, the labor market consequences of immigration generate a net benefit for the entire native-born population. The annual net gain from immigration is small (less than 0.1 percent of gross domestic product), amounting to less than $10 billion a year for the entire native-born population. However, immigration does more than just increase the total income accruing to native-born workers: it also induces a substantial redistribution of wealth away from workers who compete with immigrants and toward employers and other users of immigrant services. These wealth transfers may be in the tens of billions of dollars per year.

        And just who is it that is competing with illegal unskilled immigrants from places like Mexico?  Poor Americans.

        Liberals rightly decry the Bush tax cuts as a transfer of wealth away from the poor to the rich.  Here you have another issue with exactly the same effect and liberals are indifferent.  Why is that?

    •  Actually (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      I'd have to question the sanity of anyone who gets "extremely angry" over the display of Mexican flags.

      Objecting to them...I could see that.
      Thinking it was not a wise PR move... I could see that.

      but extremely angry...? well maybe Lou Dobbs.

      Hey! That wasn't very...

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:12:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Easy (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        llih, TriMt7

        It's one thing to display the Mexican flag during a Cinco de Mayo festival.  It's quite another to wave them in the context of a demonstration about illegal immigration.  It's outrageous.  It's as if these people are saying, "We don't care about your stupid American laws.  Mexicans have a right to be here."

        Sorry, but that's pepper up my nose.  If that makes me Lou Dobbs, well tough shit.

        •  just be angry then (0+ / 0-)

          you don't need the "extreme" part! heh

          Hey! That wasn't very...

          by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:50:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, given the history of this country and (0+ / 0-)

          Mexico, they may be able to make a case for having the right to be here. We stole Texas from Mexico, along with Arizona, New Mexico and California. Read your history..and then ask yourself if they don't have a right to be here too. Yes, they should have visas, and be legal immigrants, but given our policy of quotas, etc. it's hard for them to get the right papers to come legally. In Mexico, it costs money to get the right documentation, they have one of the most corrupt bureaucracies in the western hemisphere. Unless you are a Native American, then you are either an immigrant or the descendant of immigrants. If it weren't for the US immigration tradition, you might be back in the country of origin of your ancestors, much less better off than you are here. That is all the immigrants from Mexico want for their children, a better life.

          What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

          by Demfem on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:24:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  First (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            You're making the assumption that all illegal immigrants are from Mexico -- the same assumption Republicans are accused of making.

            Second, if Mexico has a right to reclaim California, Arizona, etc., then Spain has a right to reclaim Mexico.  Spain and Russia can duke it out for parts of California.  France and Britain can pick up where the Seven Years War left off and battle over parts of the eastern United States and Canada.  Canada can invade Washington and Oregon on behalf of the British crown.  It would be history come to life.  Coolies!

            Or you could accept the fact that unless Mexico mounted an armed assault on California, Arizona, etc. and was able to overwhelm American forces long enough to force a surrender, that this is sovereign American territory with its own laws.  

          •  Not buying it at all. (0+ / 0-)

            Mexico has no more right to claim that land than the United States. Less, actually, because we "stole" the land "fair and square".

            Mexico's borders were drawn through SPANISH theft of that same land from the indigenous in the Americas. Our illigitimate land claim is thus premised on Mexico's own illigitimate land claim. But then again, conquest has been a recognized form of land acquisition since the dawn of civilization, so tough crap Mexico. Deal with it.

            Any Mexicans living within the borders of the newsly re-defined US border in the 1800s found themselves AMERICANS and would be Americans NOW had their family chosen to reside in the American Southwest permanently.

            This has nothing to do with indigenous workers who hail from Chiapas, and even less to do with "South American" natives generally, who are and were a distinct population from Southwest American natives.

            Oh yeah, "long quotas" is NOT a valid excuse for allowing illegal immigrants. There are also "long quotas" for immigrants waiting to come in from the Phillipines... and what sort of fairness to those Mexicans who DO follow the law to apply for a Visa!?

            No preset ideological agenda:

            by TriMt7 on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 09:57:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Well, pardon my Spanish, (0+ / 0-)

          bud, but I thought it was chile up your ass.

      •  Well, I don't want to see the Mexican flag over (0+ / 0-)

        any of our government buildings..LOL, but apart from that, why not? If Dobbs ever gets to NY, he can go to the United Nations and have a stroke about the flags of the member nations flying out front. And in DC, the embassy flags are sure to give him a turn. Of course, the flags in DC are on embassy grounds, which is that nation's sovereign territory. I bet he would have a gripe about that too.

        What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

        by Demfem on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:11:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Root of the problem - It's our country's fault (0+ / 0-)

      Assuming that most people come here for economic or political reasons, one needs to think about our country's economic and policital involvement in other countries. One example, selling corn to Mexico, putting their farmers out of business.

      Anyone with such a negative reaction to foreign flags needs to learn a bit more about history, our involvement elsewhere and cause-and-effect. Increased militarization of the border does not improve the economy of Mexico. Neither will building a f--ng wall. Processing immigrants as "terrorists" will serve to turn the DHS to a domestic focus, justifying increased military-type action at or within our borders.

      I'm sure you remember after prop. 187, the mass deportations where residents and citizens were also sometimes rounded up and deported. Enforcement cannot always differentiate. And waving a flag does not make one illegal, or immigrant for that matter.

      •  Root of the problem - it's Mexico's fault (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        If Mexico wasn't such a corrupt, backward, racist hellhole for these poor peasants, then maybe it could offer more opportunity than just scratching out a living raising corn.

        I'm not defending selling subsidized American corn to Mexico, only that that is far from the only reason there is such a tide of illegal immigration from there.

        Try to analyze the issue without the knee-jerk "it's our fault" reaction.

        As for this:

        I'm sure you remember after prop. 187, the mass deportations where residents and citizens were also sometimes rounded up and deported. Enforcement cannot always differentiate.

        That's the first time I've ever heard that citizens were deported under this law.  Got a link for that?  Regardless, I doubt any serious observer would say there was a "mass" deportation.

        •  I see your point (0+ / 0-)

          OK, so my post sounded more "knee-jerk" than I intended. I'm stuck with it now.

          It isn't just the U.S., there's fault on both sides of the border. As for the other part, if I find something I'll post. I just recall reading in local papers back in the day, about residents and citizens getting detained up in raids meant to catch undocumented immigrants. My wording should've been more accurate here as well. Again, point well-taken on the "knee-jerk" approach, it detracted from my message.

    •  Reducing immigration: (0+ / 0-)
      Stopping illegal immigration is impossible given the strong motivation of the people who come here.  Also not true.  It will never be reduced to zero, but it can be significantly reduced from where it is now.


      •  Send the employee's first paycheck (0+ / 0-)

        to the local INS office [via registered mail] along copy of the paperwork provided to the employer.

        The employee would show his ID to the INS and the INS could do the verification, leaving the employer out of it.

        Once the check is debited from the employer's account, the employer could pay the employee directly.

    •  You (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      are brave. I have posted comments before along the same lines as yours on immigration before. The Democratic Party used to be the Party of the poorest working class Americans. If you read the posts here today, you are the only person who speaks about the impact illegal immigration has on American workers. The poorest Americans have been forgotten and replaced by illegal foreign nationals as the cause of the day. The educated elite find it easy to be an advocate of illegal immigrants because their presence here doesn't affect them economically. For most here on this blog, there is no competition from illegals in the workplace. How many of these illegal immigration supporters would change their tune if their own jobs were threatened or wages depressed?
      Many may find out with the increase in visas that Congress is contemplating.
      A day or so ago there was a diary about educated Americans losing their jobs and having to live in cars. Tragic, a person with a college degree lost his job to outsourcing and couldn't find another one. He lost his half a million dollar house and had to move into his car. The same thing has happened to hundreds of thousands of poorer Americans with the insourcing of illegal foreign workers. The only difference is they were already on the lower economic tier to begin with. Construction and service workers are the hardest hit by illegal immigration. But even small business owners are finding it hard to compete and use American labor.

      I have heard all kinds of dream solutions to the problem of illegal immigration. Almost all negate the effect the numbers have on wages. Some say making them legal will solve the problem. If you have 5 million legal immigrant construction workers still making $10.00-15.00/hr, how is that going to help skilled American tradesman who should be making $35.00-40.00/hr? Their jobs are still in the can. All those WalMart employees that we hear so much about who are making $8.00-9.00/hr tops. You can believe they will be replaced by new legal immigrants that will work for minimum wage with no raises. Any non unionized trade or industry would be affected.
      Well we can organize them I have heard. That sounds great. First how long will it take? If it takes an optimistic 5 years to get a substantial number organized, what about the Americans who are currently hurting? How many of the 10-20 million  former illegal aliens would become unionized? If even a number of say 10% were organized into unions, what about the other 90% that are still in non unionized industries? Should unions such as the SEIU or UFCW gain a modest increase in dues paying members at the expense of other industries?

      If I own a small landscaping business and I want to pay my workers a fair and decent starting wage of at least $10.00/hr, how am I going to compete with a guy who employs new immigrants for minimum wage? I can't and I have to let go my higher paid employees in favor of cheaper labor. So what happens to my former employees?

      The reality is that a little less than 40% of the US workforce is college educated. The majority is highschool educated, with a smaller percentage not finishing highschool. We need the jobs, so many here are relinquishing to immigrants. Those jobs, some say Americans won't due. Of course these jobs have to pay a livable wage.

      So how do we get the wages up? Adding another 10 or more million under-educated workers won't due it. The raise in minimum wage Congress has talked about is a joke. So how? We reduce the labor supply by controlling and enforcing immigration laws. Immigration laws were enacted to protect American wages and health.

      So if immigration laws are to protect US citizens, and the largest segment of the American workforce is highschool educated and on the lower tiers economically, then its a win for Dems to favor control. Not only does it show we are for the rule of law, but will put the Democratic Party back in touch with its roots, the American blue coller worker.

      "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." Thomas Jefferson

      by llih on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 09:47:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Democratic priorities (0+ / 0-)

        The immigration debate is a microcosm of all that has gone wrong with the Democratic Party specifically but the left in general.  Instead of fighting for the interests of poor Americans, the Democratic Party made two historic mistakes.

        First, it simply ceded the business community to Republicans as a constituency.  Because of over-reliance on organized labor, it adopted unions' adversarial stance towards business, thus pushing business into the arms of Republicans, who were in the middle of being transformed into a party of radicals.  This is the root of the GOP corruption we see today.

        Second, it began to value cultural and ethnic politics more highly than economics.  This is what we see in the immigration debate.  Liberals are much more animated about the whiff of anti-Mexican feeling that bubbles just under the surface of the immigration debate than they are about the economic issues.  Solidarity with the third world, "oppressed" people and other victims is what really get the blood pumping.  You are right to call this a class thing.  Many liberals coldn't give two shits about working class blue collar people.

        The first of these issues is somewhat ususual, I admit.  But I firmly believe that had the Democrats tried harder to cultivate the business community, the worst excesses of Republicanism might have been prevented.  Regardless, the worst thing the Democrats can do going forward is to perpetuate the anti-business prejudice, thereby writing off a key constituency and any hope of actually moderating the influence of business on politics.  

  •  s'posed t'be April 1, kos (0+ / 0-)

    Before noon. Must be some helluva glitch in the ole AJAX that held this up for two days.

    Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving: it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.--Thomas Paine

    by peterborocanuck on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:09:56 PM PDT

  •  Bush Spanish & immigrants (0+ / 0-)

    Jeb's Spanish is much better than that of his older brother. Whether his reasoning and his morals are better is dubious, although I don't live in FL so I may be putting too much stress on the Schiavo fiasco.

    Nixon and Wallace demonized blacks, Tancredo & Frist demonize Latinos. It's ridiculously easy for those with the advertising budgets to get us fighting among ourselves. Fool me five times and it's my fault if I still buy this crap.

  •  Mexican flag hysteria (0+ / 0-)

    If Katrina lost Republicans the African American vote, immigration lost them the Latino vote.

    Visit Hughes for America, the Worldwide Leader in Web Log Technology for 50 Years!

    by BobcatJH on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:33:57 PM PDT

  •  OK, I read this whole thread looking for (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    an indepth discussion to take off on how Jeb's admirable ad would play with the all-too-racist "base" ...

    and I didn't find it. Oh there was an enjoyable snark or two, but only in passing. So let's spell it out loud and clear: this heart-warming and effective ad, whether sincere or cynical, was undoubtedly played ONLY on Spanish-language stations.  If it was played, with translation, on right-wing outlets, he would LOSE more votes than he ever gained.  

    So we need to publicly and repeatedly quote him and thank on this, as often as possible.  

    The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function -- Edward Teller.

    by lgmcp on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:34:41 PM PDT

  •  Yeah Man, But It's A Mexican Flag. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dontch' know. Greeks, and Italians are ok. And so are the Irish. It's those Mexicans the racists can't stand. That's the beauty of the Mexican flag flap. It exposes those closet racists. And forces them to take untenable positions to try to keep their racism under wraps -- like saying that it's un-American to fly any flag at all.

    "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him." Bush on Osama-3/13/02

    by chuco35 on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 04:49:51 PM PDT

  •  The 2008 Democratic Presidential Candidates (0+ / 0-)

    If you go to the thread at the end of the article from Friday's Daily Kos that has that memo, I have tried to respond to some of your comments.  I would be interested in engaging you all if you care to.

    Frank Luntz  

  •  St. Paddy's Day, New York City 2006 (0+ / 0-)


    Someone left the cake out in the rain. - Jimmy Webb

    by eecee on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:02:53 PM PDT

  •  The best way to learn a foreign language (0+ / 0-)

    is through intercourse¹ with native speakers.

    Greg Shenaut

    ¹Intercourse \In"ter*course\, n. [Formerly entercourse, OF. entrecours commerce, exchange, F. entrecours a reciprocal right on neighboring lands, L. intercursus a running between, fr. intercurrere to run between. See {Inter-}, and {Course}.] 1. A commingling; intimate connection or dealings between persons or nations, as in common affairs and civilities, in correspondence or trade; communication; commerce; especially, interchange of thought and feeling; association; communion. [1913 Webster] 2. Same as {sexual intercourse}. [PJC]

  •  Here are two good articles (0+ / 0-)

    from different perscpectives: by the way, David Romo's magnificent book is a must for anyone wanting to know a bit about the border and the Mexican Revolution.

    Young and Old March, Not Always Together
    by David Dorado Romo

    GETTING 6,000 PEOPLE together at an El Paso protest is quite an impressive feat in and of itself. That happened Friday, March 31, when demonstrators of all ages, from former braceros, to teenagers, to college students, to veteran activists, marched from San Jacinto Plaza in Downtown El Paso to the Sin Fronteras farmworker center. They marched both in honor of Cesar Chávez and to denounce immigration law changes that will turn millions of undocumented immigrants into felons.

    But what was even more remarkable, and unheard of in El Paso, were the series of smaller spontaneous student demonstrations that took place that day throughout the entire city. According to an El Paso police spokesman, another 4,000 student protesters from about 25 different high school and middle schools staged walkouts and marched throughout the area chanting “To the Bridge!” and “¡México, México, México!” Their trajectory took them on zigzagged, improvised routes through different El Paso neighborhoods. They headed to nearby schools to call out other students to join them. Often they were met by police squads at schools that were on lock-down “for the safety of the students.” On the West Side, near Franklin High School, one of the more affluent neighborhoods of El Paso, several people shouted insults to the mostly Mexican American protesters urging them to “Go back to Mexico!” In that same neighborhood, I witnessed a group of Anglo students wrapped in bright-colored sarapes ridicule the protest. “We just love Cesar Chávez!” they mocked as they shook their sarapes."

    Some good pictures - if the Mexican flag offends you, don't go here.

    This surprised me, for the "El Paso Times" is widely viewed as a right wing paper, supportive of the war on Iraq and Bush, and generally cool to immigration rights, but big on the "Minutemen".

    "Schools may take lessons from walkouts

    Ramon Bracamontes
    El Paso Times
    Sunday, April 2, 2006

    The walkouts orchestrated by high-school students in El Paso last week may lead to public policy changes and may one day have historic significance, but for now, civil disobedience experts are hoping the schools don't punish the students.

    'The walkouts are an excellent example of civic participation,' said Kathy Staudt, the director of the Center for Civic Engagement at the University of Texas at El Paso. 'These students have a strong stake in the immigration policy that is being debated. They have friends and family that could be impacted.

    I sincerely hope that the school system does not penalize them.'

    More than 5,000 students walked out of classes throughout the county Wednesday, Thursday and Friday in protest of immigration bill H.R. 4437. The bill, passed by the U.S. House, would make illegally living and working in the United States a felony. The House bill also recommends building a wall between the United States and Mexico.

    Its companion bill in the Senate drops the felony stipulation and the plan to build a wall.

    'The bill in the House is bad,' said El Pasoan Henry McGhee, who worked for the Immigration and Naturalization Service for 37 years. 'Immigration violations have always been administrative violations. This would make people felons and send them to prison.'

    The Senate bill is better because amnesty and a guest worker program are built into it, said McGhee, who oversaw the immigration amnesty program in El Paso in 1986. That program made documented immigrants out of people who had been illegally living and working in the United States.

    'What everyone is forgetting is that all these people have children and spouses here,' McGhee said. 'It would hurt Hispanics in this area. I can't blame the students for what they did. They wanted to take a stand and be heard.'

    Riverside High School sophomore Michelle Sagaribay, 16, who took part in the protests, said that for the most part, the students who walked out knew exactly what was in the House bill and that it might hurt their families. She had her parents' support in walking out.

    'I thought it was great. It was peaceful and we got what we wanted ... our point across,' she said. 'I feel that we as Mexicans have the duty to fight for other Mexicans who this law is affecting. We had a point and we made it clear.'

    After the march, she said, all of the other students were talking about the event. And, she said, most teachers agreed with the protesters and very few students got in trouble. At Riverside, about 125 of the school's 1,500 students walked out.

    State Rep. Norma Chávez, D-El Paso, said she hopes the school districts use the walkouts in their lesson plans instead of punishing the students.

    'I believe the students have demonstrated passion and are aware of the national debate,' said Chávez, who has been part of hundreds of vigils, boycotts, protests and marches. 'But now it is time for the student to go back to class, and the districts must create a public forum for the students at school.'

    By punishing the students, the school districts would be discouraging civic participation, Chávez said. Instead, the schools should get the students to write letters to Congress, she said.

    'I would be very disappointed if the schools do not develop a platform that will encourage the students to go back to school and participate in debate,' she said.

    School officials from several districts contacted during the week said that it was too early to see how the schools would adjust and learn from the experience. But they all said expelling students was probably not an option.

    At the Ysleta Independent School District, students were marked absent and administrators expect to debrief next week, after everything subsides.

    'Certainly there are lessons to be learned and taught, and we will see how to best do that,' said Patricia Ayala, Ysleta public relations specialist.

    UTEP's Staudt said the way the students went about the protest was correct.

    'They are having an impact; pictures on the front page of the paper are powerful,' Staudt said. 'I think they are getting heard.'

    U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison's staff said the senator was well aware of the protests in El Paso and throughout the country. Her office released a statement that said current immigration laws are not working and need to be changed.

    'We need a system that does not condone breaking our laws; a new law that puts in place a process for the future that encourages legal immigration and discourages illegal immigration,' the statement read.

    UTEP Professor Z. Anthony Kruszewski, who organized and held a four-day worldwide conference on immigration last week in the area, said the immigration concerns are not specific to the United States and Mexico. The same problem exists in Europe and along the Mediterranean Sea, where people living in developing countries are trying to get to industrialized countries in search of work.

    'These problems have to be solved as regions, he said after wrapping up the ''Lineae Terrarum'' International Border Conference at UTEP. "We need to create a pact with Canada, the U.S., Mexico and Latin America to solve the immigration problem. We must invest in Mexico and Latin America so that people can get jobs there and not have to come here.

    'We should not be investing in China. We should invest here.'

    At the four-day border conference which included visits to Juárez and Las Cruces, Kruszewski said, about 350 scholars from around the world came together to find a solution.
    Our story is not unique,' he said. "We can't close the border, but we must have a secure border.'

    Mr. McGhee was a humane administrtator when he worked for the old Immigration and Naturalization Service.  He is spot on on the alleged "illegality" - what the undocumdented were and are guilty of is an administrative offense, one that became a crime only if there was a re-entry (undocumented) after deportation, something the law-and-order-don't-reward-criminals-crowd conveniently misses.

  •  At the risk of making a fool out of myself... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    diplomatic, artifex

    (and this is Morgan, Roland's wife, in case I goof ^_^)...

    Puerto Ricans are already Americans, at least sort of.

    Per the Factbook, it's a commonwealth of the US, and their "chief of state" is "President George W. BUSH of the US."

    It's not like they come from another country. They don't need passports to enter the states. They can be, and were, drafted. They can vote for president if they live in one of the 50 states (and register and all).

    I say this as the wife of someone whose mother is Puerto Rican, who was just researching that side of his heritage.

    •  I am sure Markos knows that (0+ / 0-)

      As most people on this blog.  But Puerto Rico still has its own flag and it was featured in the Jeb video.  That's all he meant to say, I think.

      Anyone living in NYC, definitely knows PR has its own flag and we are proud to display it =)

      extra fyi: in Puerto Rico both the United States flag and Puerto Rican flag are display side by side on all government buildings.

      Hey! That wasn't very...

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 05:51:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  good of you to post the information (0+ / 0-)

      Hey! That wasn't very...

      by diplomatic on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 06:10:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  My Take (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think Americans have a problem with people waving flags of the nation your ancestors came from. What people are having a problem with is the Mexican flag being flown above the United States flag.

    One thing I would like to see in these rallies/protests is more American flags and fewer Mexican flags. Since you want be an American, you should embrace our flag 1st and all others 2nd.

  •  Xenophobia (0+ / 0-)

    All the nauseating immigrant bashing and xenophobic rhetoric of recent weeks on the part of the GOP proves one thing:  any use of xenophobia for short term political gain is dangerous.  

    It is always possible to talk about protecting national security and US labor without the blanket bashing of foreigners or attacking immigrants.  I understand the political temptation to whip up xenophobia, but I will never support it from either party for any reason.

    On a side note, from what I read here it looks like anti-immigrant pundit Lou Dobbs is also a hypocrite:

    Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms. Groucho Marx

    by markymarx on Mon Apr 03, 2006 at 06:13:25 PM PDT

  •  Interesting poll on the immigration topic (0+ / 0-)

    Saw this in FreeRepublic:

    Show where you stand on immigration!

    Personalize your mobile phone with your view on immigration.  Make your opinion known, pick the image that makes YOUR statement on this important issue facing the nation.  Show where you stand.

    Go to: (For T-Mobile, Cingular, and AT&T phones).

    We’ll tabulate the results and report on how people across the nation view the immigration issue.

  •  Like it or not, the world (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    llih, BradtheDad

    isn't divided between mean, racist, hypocritical white people and good, tolerant non-white people (or white people who agree with 100% of the goals of non-white people).  Lots of people believe lots of different things and attempts to tar them with the same brush are a waste of time.  Yet I've seen a lot of comments that, in the midst of defending non-white Mexicans from racism, attack people whose ancestors all came from Europe.  How is that not racist?

    A lot of people have complicated feelings about illegal immigration -- I've heard from people who support legal immigration but are opposed to illegal immigration, people who are sympathetic toward illegal immigrants but were uncomfortable seeing the Mexican flag flying so prominently at the rallies, people who think they should all stay, people who think they should all go.  The white people I've heard from don't belong to a country club or a gated community.  Black people I've heard from are worried about their jobs.  They, people with Asian ancestry, Latinos, everyone has an opinion and every opinion is going to be a little different, based on their own personal experiences.  You can't just put them in a neat "racist" or "non-racist" box.

    And like it or not, if you believe in a diverse United States, you're going to have to accept that you will be living amongst these different groups of people for the rest of your life.  Just as Americans of the South are dreaming when they think that they can make an America that is 100% white and Christian, people who talk about a Latino political wave should realize that the U.S. is still going to be made up of non-Latino groups and not everyone in those groups is going to support all of their goals.  For that matter, not all Latinos are bound to support "Latino" goals, either.

  •  Flags (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Lou Dobbs seemed to be doing some damage control after saying that Irish flags shouldn't be flown at St. Patrick's Day. The furor over Mexican flags is an artificial creation - until now, people didn't know they were supposed to be outraged.

    I certainly don't see this outrage over Norwegian and Swedish flags flying here in Minnesota, and now outrage over the Swedish-American Center.

  •  check out the 2006 intelligence report (0+ / 0-)

    by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
    See if you can find your favorite "nativist"

  •  Markos: It's a question of scale (0+ / 0-)

    Markos said: "What else is St. Patrick's Day parade? How many Greek flags fly in Chicago's Greek Town? How many Italian flags in Boston's North End?"

    Believe me: If millions of illegal Irish or Greeks or Italians were in the United States and paraded with their flags, Americans wouldn't like them either.

    It's almost as if these demonstrators are flaunting their disrespect for the US and the US flag.

    If the number of Mexicans who were illegally in the United States was similar to the number of Irish or Greeks or Italians, nobody would care about their flag-waving.

    But their numbers are vastly larger.

    Think of this movement as just one more special interest group that you decry in your book. Because that's what it is.

  •  Too cynical (0+ / 0-)

    I hear y'all on how terrible George Bush is and how frustrated you are with the entire Bush clan but it strikes me as hypocritical to bahs Jeb on this one.

    It doesn't kill you to admit that the guy is pluralistic and embracing of different cultures.  In fact, it ruins your credibility if you can't tip your hat to the guy for being so inclusive.  You can hate the man but appreciate the sentiment, whether for votes or not-it seems to be more sincere than pandering and even if pandering, it is so over the top that it really frames Jeb's thinking.  

    I have a hard time believing he could put himself out there with that ad unless he wanted it to be a closely associated with his image for quite some time.  No running from that ad once it plays.

    And there is no way in hell a Bush wins the Republican nomination-more likely Allen or someone not as tightly packed to the Bushes.

    JMHO from the real center, not the skewed center y'all in this closed information loop think you inhabit.  

    •  He wasn't bashing (0+ / 0-)

      This is actually sincere from Markos, I believe.

      Take a look at many of the comments in this thread where Democrats (including me) have given credit where credit is due to Jeb, and the Bush family in general, on this issue.

      Hey! That wasn't very...

      by diplomatic on Tue Apr 04, 2006 at 09:22:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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