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The now subsiding flap over the hit piece on MSOC in WaPo and the recent profane and heated debate in this blog got me thinking about Vietnam and the response of the left.  I decided that just as Bushco learned nothing from the Vietnam failure,  so have we on the left learned nothing either.

In an earlier post I answered my own question about when the left lost it:  Chicago, 1968, Grant Park:  The image of uncontrolled rage left the Humphrey campaign in a shambles,  and despite a late surge led to a close election, but the installation of Nixon and it has been downhill ever since.

At this point, the rage is not uncontrollable, but portraits of bloggers like MSOC, accurate or not, in MSM like WaPo, do no good.       MORE BELOW THE FOLD, INCLUDING AN ANSWER TO THE TITLE QUESTION.

Rage certainly has its place.  Profanity has its place.  I was struck by the post by a guy who took his young son to RFK to see the baseball opener and found himself booing Dr. Evil louder and louder, despite his telling his kid how impolite that would be only moments earlier.  He was struck by his own depth of feeling.  And I think we all have it.

At a recent candidate's night of the Hamilton County Democratic Forum (Cincinnati) that I emceed, I described the last six years as a national nightmare.  Heads were bobbing all over the auditorium.  It has been a nightmare, and people are scared and angry.

But we are not going to convince the 5-10% of the country we need to get back into the saddle by uncontrolled rage, unthoughtful comment and profanity by the bushelful.  It just turns them off.  People can disagree with this.  I fully expect some of my critics to respond with another thoughtful "Fuck You" or "Stuff it up your ass", but I submit that such clever rejoinders don't advance the dialogue very much.

We need to control the rage, get it out, acknowledge it and turn it into precinct workers, phone volunteers, contributors, candidates, poll watchers, a blue majority that will turn this country back into what it should be.

That's my Easter basket for the Kos community.

Answer to the question:   "I am going to Hono-fucking-lulu."

I figured that this was the only way to get some attention around this blog.  Maybe I have learned something from the always interesting and impassioned MSOC.

Originally posted to cova1 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:16 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar--please recommend (7+ / 0-)

    What rough beast, its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem waiting to be born?

    by cova1 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:15:48 AM PDT

  •  It depends on it's use. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sixfortyfive

         I'm not Mr grammar person but the word fuck can be used a number of ways. As a verb, to fuck(have sexual intercourse) as a noun, what a fuck(describing any number of republican politicians) and any of other number of ways, Fuck up, fuck off. Somebody with more expertise(grammar wise) would have to further enlighten us.

    "I am the pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity." G W Bush

    by irate on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:20:38 AM PDT

  •  Bill Coffin RIP (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    esquimaux
     I love to quote Bill Coffin. He said, "...If you lessen your anger at the structures of power, you lower your love for the victims of power."

    They can conquer who believe they can. --Virgil

    by ksingh on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:24:38 AM PDT

  •  5%-10%? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chuco35, mint julep, esquimaux

    ...we are not going to convince the 5-10% of the country we need...

    Fuck them (a little early profanity for you).  These mythical "swing voters" should not be the focus of our efforts.  

    It's the 50%+ who don't bother to vote because they don't think it'll make a difference that we should be going after.

    •  I disagree (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Fury, BB10

      It's the 50% who don't vote who are "mythical".  If they didn't get off their lazy butts in '04, when will they ever?
       
      I think the diarist is right:  It's the 5-10% middle swing voters who are key.  People like, in my own personal experience, my friends in Maryland, a 45-year-old married couple with two kids who were on the fence until the last minute but ended up voting for Bush because they weren't exactly sure what Kerry would do about terrorism.  Or my plumber here in upstate NY who voted for Bush because he thought Kerry was a "phony" and he hated that Kerry dissed US soldiers in Vietnam (he kept quoting that "Genghis Khan" commercial the Bush folks ran -- that was a highly effective ad).  

      Meanwhile, my big-mouth brother-in-law who kept running his mouth about what a jerk Bush was for months before the election didn't go vote!!!  

      There are two kind of people:  Those who feel it's their duty to vote and do so year after year, and those who are too lazy or, like you say, don't think it makes a difference.  Getting this latter group to the polls is murder!  Kerry would've won in '04 if his campaign had been run better (i.e., in my opinion, if Bob Shrum hadn't been in charge of it).  Kerry's acceptance speech sucked and things went downhill from there.  

      •  I Disagree (0+ / 0-)

        Or my plumber here in upstate NY who voted for Bush because he thought Kerry was a "phony"

        And I wonder why he thought that?  Because Kerry voted for the war and was speaking out against it?  

        That's why a lot of folks sit home.  They see nothing worth the effort on either side.  

        We need to give them something to vote for, as opposed to just saying how much Republicans suck (they already know that).  

        I think Howard Dean gets this.  It's why we are building a 50-state presence.

        •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

          In the plumber's case, one of the big beefs he had with Kerry was that Kerry said "untrue" things about US soldiers back in the '70's.  That was one of the reasons he thought Kerry was a "phony" (that and because Kerry was rich!!).  He'd been in favor of the Iraq War but seemed to be realizing that it was a big mistake.  He didn't seem to have a problem with Kerry changing his mind because he himself had!!  

          My point is this:  We can't count on a horde of people who haven't voted previously coming out in droves.  That doesn't, however, negate your point:  That we need to give voters something to vote FOR. Also, I'm a HUGE fan of Dean's 50-state strategy.  Getting back to the diarist's original point, however, the middle 5-10% of crucial swing voters that I think decide elections can be converted to our side, but foul language doesn't help with that effort because they tend to be pretty "mainstream types".    

  •  To be honest... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryb2004, Fury

    I've been here since mid '04, and I pretty much stopped reading MSOC's diaries altogether quite a while ago. I don't even give much of a shit about profanity most of the time, but when it gets to the point where it looks like that's the only way one can express him or herself, it loses any effectiveness it might have had.

    Sometimes the jokes write themselves. Sometimes they run for President.

    by Sixfortyfive on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 07:34:18 AM PDT

  •  Bad early childhood experience (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryb2004, Arken, Fury

    of Mom and a bar of soap, has pretty much left me bereft of profanity for over 4 decades. I've been here at DKos for about a year now, and I think I've only read a couple of MSOC's diaries. It's what I love about it here: you can find out the inside stuff before the MSM does, you can find diaries that you'd pay to read (Darksyde, Jerome a Paris, Bonddad)or you can just rage, rage against the lieing of the Right.

    I agree with you that anger alone will not prevail, but anger backed up with facts and a plan is going to be very popular. Eloquent passion that informs voters and focuses them on a better future, and a means to recover our honor, and promote the well-being of the working class (which I maintain is anyone who MUST work in order to live, unlike those who could stop working and live off their investments)is going to resonate.

  •  Right. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lanikai

    What makes you think you know what people here are or aren't doing to elect Dems?

    Yesterday, you lectured me.

    And a couple of days before that, you l;ectured someone else.

    Like you're the only guy around here "doing somehting about it."

    Arrogance and ignorance.

    The more you preach, the dumber you look.

    Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

    by Bob Johnson on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:05:41 AM PDT

    •  I'm sorry if you feel I lectured you. . . (0+ / 0-)

      It was not my intent.  I don't know what you are doing, and I have no real animosity toward you and wish you the best.  I get frustrated at the fact that it has been 6 years and we are still in the wilderness.  

      I do think your thumb in the eye MO is counter productive.  I guess that will get me another "Fuck You"--but that's OK.  Happy Easter anyway!

      What rough beast, its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem waiting to be born?

      by cova1 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:29:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's not my MO (0+ / 0-)

        There you go again.

        You're problem is you talk about things you know nothing about as though you're an expert.

        Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

        by Bob Johnson on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:44:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll try one more time. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sixfortyfive

          Sorry if I offended you.  Happy Easter!

          What rough beast, its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem waiting to be born?

          by cova1 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:50:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And talking about offending people... (0+ / 0-)

            You have a problem with people saying 'fuck' but you assume we all celebrate Easter. I, for one, find that far more offensive.

            •  I hope you are being snarky-- (0+ / 0-)

              What's wrong with trying to wish people well on a particular day?  It is nice and bright and sunny here in Cincinnati, and I hope it is wherever you are, and in Chicago, where Bob Johnson apparently lives.  

              I don't celebrate Easter either.  And I am not a believer.  It happens to be the name of the day in a lot of people's consciousness.  

              So how about a happy, April 16 to everybody?  Is that offensive?  If so, as everyone from Cheney to MSOC would say, and I gladly add--Go fuck yourself.

              What rough beast, its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem waiting to be born?

              by cova1 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:59:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Would you wish Happy Easter (0+ / 0-)

                to a devout Muslim? Or Hindu? or Jew?

                Saying 'happy Easter' is basically saying 'have a good time celebrating the resurrection of our lord Jesus'

                How do you think that sounds to anyone who spent their entire lives outside this Christian world? As someone who grew up never having celebrated the holiday, I find it annoying. I'm sure a more religious person would find it offensive.

                •  If Bob Johnson's name (0+ / 0-)

                  were Abu ben Chalabi,  I wouldn't have phrased it that way.  

                  I am part Jewish myself, and attended a Seder Wednesday night.  My best friend in graduate school had to sneak a Christmas tree into the house at night so his parents' good Jewish neighbors in Queens wouldn't be offended.

                  Why take offense so easily?  I have wished you well twice now,  and you don't want to respond.  That's fine.  But I can't live that way.  I think a lot of people take offense too easily--maybe the Repugs even moe than we do.

                  What rough beast, its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem waiting to be born?

                  by cova1 on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:06:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  When my grandmother was still alive, we used to (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  cova1

                  have an Easter Egg Hunt at her house every year. All the friends of the great-grandchildren were invited. Didn't matter what religion they were, it wasn't a religious event, it was a fun thing for children. One year we had a plethora of religions represented, my sister's children who are Jewish, my other sister's children who are Catholic, friends of those children and great-grand children of my grandmother's friends who were Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. My grandmother looked out the window at all these children having a great time hunting for candy-filled plastic eggs in the garden and said, "You know, the UN should come here and watch this. They might actually learn something." Easter bunnies and egg hunts are derived from a pagan ritual for Spring, not in anyway religious. There is no reason why children, and adults, of all religions shouldn't enjoy an Easter Egg Hunt. It's fun, and fun comes in all religions.

                  What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                  by Demfem on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:27:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's a typical excuse I hear from christians. (0+ / 0-)

                    Because you can't possibly fathom that when those kids go home and ask their parents why they don't celebrate easter and have their own egg hunts and the parents explain to them how that's not part of their religion how those kids suddenly fill excluded and different.

                    Sure, it's fun at the time, but later they start wondering, 'what's wrong with me?'

                    There is nothing wrong with celebrating Easter or any other holiday. What is wrong is to assume that everyone should or is willing to partake.

                    •  Their parents were all present, having been (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      cova1, Arken, buddabelly

                      invited to an Easter brunch while the kids were on the hunt. It was explained to the children as a tradition for children in some parts of the world. None of the kids felt excluded.

                      As the daughter of a diplomat, I have taken part in, and been invited to see, many non-Christian traditions and religious ceremonies. I never felt insulted, excluded or anything other than honored to have been included. I am the only Westerner ever to have been invited(in 1966) to a Shimbyu at the Shwedagon monestary in what was then Rangoon, Burma. That is the ceremony that takes place the first time a young Buddhist enters the temple for the first of his three services as a monk. It is a great honor to be invited, and I was told that this was the first time anyone who wasn't Burmese had been invited to this ceremony in that monestary. The monks were very welcoming, and as the traditional gift one brings, I brought ten gallons of ice cream, which was enjoyed by all. When I was in India, I was invited to see a performance of the Ramayana. It was six nights long and we sat on very hard wooden chairs. I had a numb backside by the end of the week, but I enjoyed it very much. I am not Indian, nor am I Hindu, but I would have felt it rude to refuse.

                      Including children in traditions, be they of their religion or not, is a good way to teach tolerance. To exclude them or object to their being invited is to teach intolerance. My sister is Jewish, I am not, another sister is Catholic, as are her children. We all go to each other's children's Bat Mitzvahs, First Communions, Conformations, etc. We also go to ceremonies and traditional events that we are invited to by our friends who aren't of the same religion or culture.

                      There is no reason not to invite people to things you think they might enjoy. They can always say no, as I am sure you do if it's something you aren't used to. Expanding horizons is how we get to know each other and each other's cultures. Sticking to your "own kind" is how you encourage ignorance and bigotry.

                      What happens when Bush takes Viagra? he gets taller. Robin Williams

                      by Demfem on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:15:57 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

  •  You are so right (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maryb2004

    As a moderate democrat, the F words really turn me off as I suspect it does to many "swing voters" as well.  Just when we're about to capture the middle, which everyone knows we DO need to win elections, whether we like it or not, we're willing to risk turning them off with foul mouthed rhetoric?  Why? And if we do so, we get what we deserve in November. The right would like nothing better than to depict us as irrational foul mouthed children who cannot be trusted with national security and we're handing it to them on a silver platter.  I say we wash our mouths out with soap and clean up our act and start talking like leaders instead of defiant teenagers.  We could convince 100% of America that Bush & Co. have to go but they would still vote for republicans if they don't trust us.

  •  Do we want to be better than them (0+ / 0-)

    Or just as bad as them?  And would that give people a reason to vote for us?  Try to answer without using fuck!

    •  We want to DO better than them, at the polls. (0+ / 0-)

      But, sometimes, I only want to really enrage and annoy them. Just for the Hell of it.

      One of the things I've loved about the Big Dog is that HE DRIVES THEM NUTS! AROUND THE BEND! Then, in their angry reaction, they often reveal more of the ethical repulsiveness that masquerades behind their patriotic Jeezoid crap.

      There used to be a time for purely genteel, substantive debate, in a civilized manner.

      That epoch died when they "taught" us about the string of murders that Bill Clinton was responsible for while smuggling dope into Arkansas airfields, as  John Kerry was smoking hash with Ho Chi Minh and having a threesome with Jane Fonda, just before Hilary was caught munching carpet with Mary Steenburgen in the Lincoln bedroom..

      So, yeah, guilty as charged; I like to poke wingnuts with a stick, occasionally.

      I'm the plowman in the valley - with my face full of mud

      by labradog on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 12:15:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The problem with profanity ... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BB10

    ... is that paints the user in extremist colors. One can be militant without being vulgar, especially since most moderate people equate profanity with ignorance -- a perspective which, even if untrue, is pervasive and persuasive. An elevated level of political discourse is more compelling, if not always as entertaining.

    Not that I expect profanity to subside. Even those whose analysis I generally respect, like Jane Hamsher at FireDogLake, routinely curse. Certainly, there are grounds for anger, as well as the common WTF moments inspired by BushCo, but I don't see arguments couched in terms of rage as compelling -- especially among those all-important "swing" voters (a term used to describe not only their tendency to switch party support, but swing elections). It's not that I find it offensive -- I'm a former sailor capable of being as salty as anyone -- but consider it counterproductive, distracting from the legitimate criticisms which can be leveled at right wing.

  •  The problem with profanity ... (0+ / 0-)

    ... is that paints the user in extremist colors. One can be militant without being vulgar, especially since most moderate people equate profanity with ignorance -- a perspective which, even if untrue, is pervasive and persuasive. An elevated level of political discourse is more compelling, if not always as entertaining.

    Not that I expect profanity to subside. Even those whose analysis I generally respect, like Jane Hamsher at FireDogLake, routinely curse. Certainly, there are grounds for anger, as well as the common WTF moments inspired by BushCo, but I don't see arguments couched in terms of rage as compelling -- especially among those all-important "swing" voters (a term used to describe not only their tendency to switch party support, but swing elections). It's not that I find it offensive -- I'm a former sailor capable of being as salty as anyone -- but consider it counterproductive, distracting from the legitimate criticisms which can be leveled at right wing.

  •  No discussion of this word is complete without (0+ / 0-)

    Iraq has seen more corners than a two-hundred year old hooker made out of Rubik's Cubes. -- David Rees, GYWO

    by slippytoad on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:40:03 AM PDT

  •  No discussion of this word is complete without (0+ / 0-)

    Iraq has seen more corners than a two-hundred year old hooker made out of Rubik's Cubes. -- David Rees, GYWO

    by slippytoad on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 08:49:37 AM PDT

  •  I am going to (0+ / 0-)

      fuck in Honolulu.

    See? No profanity.

    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

    by condoleaser on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 09:07:49 AM PDT

  •  Wherever you want... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Clzwld

    according to this George Carlin animation

  •  Not saying Fuck over here. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lanikai

    So we can be so FUCKED over there.

    It's out "There" just OPEN your eyes.

    by Clzwld on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:36:27 AM PDT

  •  anybody over 55 years old (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cova1
    is probably not going to read anything with the word "fuck" in the headline.

    And quite a few people younger than that as well.

    If you definitely do NOT want your stuff read by a wide audience, put "fuck" in the headline.

    I wish people would realize that.

    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer -- Henry Kissinger

    by theyrereal on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 10:50:28 AM PDT

    •  riduculous (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly

      I am over 55 and the word fuck has no impact positive or negative, but for the context it is in.
      I have a question that compelled me to write my first comment ever. Isn't saying not to feel or express rage like saying one should edit their authentic feelings, because rage might make others uncomfortable? So the recommendation is be fake and polite, rather than authentic and angry.

      •  I'm talking about headlines (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cova1
        And we're obliquely talking about people like MSOC here.

        Most people in my parent's generation, for instance, won't read anything with "fuck" in the title.  They just won't.  

        I'm all for expressing ourselves and I use "fuck" quite often, but I use it judiciously and I don't put it in headlines.  

        "cuss words" lose all effect when used constantly.   Their whole purpose is to be used to make a point, in a sense.

        The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer -- Henry Kissinger

        by theyrereal on Sun Apr 16, 2006 at 11:47:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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