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This is infuriating, how can these people be allowed to harrass women and girls.  They are freaking lunatics and our tax dollars are paying for this nonsense thanks to Bushco and people like them.  

Now don't forget the girl in Indiana who died after an illegal abortion because she had to get her parents permission for a legal one.  She couldn't do it and so she died.  Now, I don't know about the rest of you but I would rather my child get a safe legal abortion without my knowledge, whether she is right or wrong to trust me, than end up dead.

I'd sue the state of Indianna if I was that girl's mother and my daughter were dead.

If you live near one of these clinic, consider picketing them and directing women and girls away from them.  Let them know this is not a place to get help, but a place to get harrassed and stalked.

Your tax dollars are funding "crisis pregnancy centers" to the tune of $60 million!

Take action now!

Dear Teresa;

When a 17-year-old Indiana girl walked into what she thought was a Planned Parenthood clinic, her mother and boyfriend beside her, she never imagined that it was a trap a deceitful setup by anti-choice zealots.
You can read her alarming story below including how people from the fake clinic came to her high school and publicly humiliated her â€" but it's not an isolated incident.
The anti-choice movement is setting up so-called "crisis pregnancy centers" across the country. Some of them have neutral-sounding names and run ads that falsely promise the full range of reproductive health services, but dispense anti-choice propaganda and intimidation instead. And according to The New York Times, there are currently more of these centers in the U.S. than there are actual abortion providers!1
A bill has just been introduced in Congress to stop the fraudulent practices of fake clinics, but it desperately needs more support.
Tell your representative to take a stand: anti-choice extremists must not get away with this any longer!
The Story: An Indiana mother recently accompanied her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend to one of Indiana's Planned Parenthood clinics, but they unwittingly walked into a "crisis pregnancy center" run by an anti-abortion group â€" one that shared a parking lot with the real Planned Parenthood clinic, and was designed expressly to lure our patients and deceive them.
The group took down the girl's confidential personal information and told her to come back for her appointment, which they said would be in their "other office" (the real Planned Parenthood office nearby). When she arrived for her appointment, not only did the Planned Parenthood staff have no record of her, but the police were there â€" the "crisis pregnancy center" had called them, claiming that a minor was being forced to have an abortion against her will.
The "crisis pregnancy center" staff then proceeded to wage a campaign of intimidation and harassment over the following days, showing up at the girl's home and calling her father's workplace. Our clinic director reports that she was "scared to death to leave her house." They even went to her school and urged classmates to pressure her not to have an abortion.
This cruel and fraudulent behavior shows exactly what's behind the proliferation of these centers. That's why this new bill is so important: it would make it illegal for any entity to advertise abortion services if it does not provide such services.
Worse yet â€" the Bush administration has used $60 million in taxpayer dollars to fund these propaganda machines. This has got to stop!
Help bring attention to this outrageous practice. Please contact your representative today!
With your help, we can put an end to the fraud and deceit that women across America are facing in their most vulnerable moments.
Sincerely,

Cecile Richards
President
Planned Parenthood Federation of America

1"Some Abortion Foes Forgo Politics for Quiet Talk", New York Times, 1/16/2006. The article reports that there are 2,300-3,500 crisis pregnancy centers nationwide, compared with about 1,800 abortion providers.

Originally posted to TeresaInPa on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:00 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Indiana is a disgusting place... (20+ / 5-)

    had the misfortune of having to spend quite some time there.

    The Christian hypocrisy in every aspect of the society there makes one nauseous.

  •  This is unconsciounable! but (5+ / 0-)

    without a bill number or bill sponsor, there is nothing to ask of my congressman.  Any ideas what bill they are talking about?

    -6.75, -5.79

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

    by edgery on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:07:33 PM PDT

  •  I first heard about this (29+ / 0-)

    From an e-mail that I recieved.  I replied and asked why were these people not placed in jail for violating medical privacy laws?  I would still love to get an answer for that one.

    •  I'd say... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rita in DC, jem6x, retLT, Pam from Calif, Sanuk

      This is a scam, plain and simple; they should call the cops, the local paper, report it to the FTC... etc.

    •  how about false calls to Police? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kimberley, jem6x, armadillo

      I'd think the cops might get a bit annoyed if this happens on a regular basis

    •  Because the story isn't true. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tonedevil, paddykraska

      At least, I can't find any verification of it.

      If anybody has some, I'd love to see it. But as I said downthread, overstating the case based on overblown stories that may or may not be true .... that's what Republicans do.

      Conservatives love America like four-year-old kids love their mommies. -Al Franken

      by leftilicious on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:42:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Happens all the time (7+ / 0-)

      The "crisis pregnancy center" in my home town likes to confuse women who think they are walking into a Planned Parenthood.  The do not correct women who ask if it is Planned Parenthood.  

      Here is the latest story in my small community.  A young mother who could not afford to support another child went into the “crisis pregnancy” facility thinking she would get counseling from Planned Parenthood about abortion after taking a pregnancy test.  They asked her when was her last period, she told them 5 weeks ago... the woman who gave her the test said "I will write down two months".  She then told the pregnant young single mother that it was too late.  That it is illegal to have an abortion after a few weeks and she would have to have the baby.  She was walked into a "baby gift" room where they began to shove baby clothes, coupons and toys in her arms.  Another woman came in the room with a baby in her arms and began to talk about how exciting it all was.  The pregnant woman left feeling bewildered and more confused.  

      She decided to call her doctor and ask if it was true that abortion was illegal after a couple of weeks and explained the story.  The outraged doctor called the Planned Parenthood clinic demanding why they gave inaccurate medical information to her patient.  Planned Parenthood knew this was nothing new and told her it was the crisis pregnancy center.  The woman was then directed to go to the correct clinic for her abortion.  She felt betrayed and lied to and taken advantage of.  

      These "crisis pregnancy centers" are full of liars and propagandists.  The literature they gave the young woman was not only misleading and WRONG, it was full of Christian propaganda.  This just ONE story.  I know many.

      I think it's high time we take it to the streets with these theo-crat propagandists.  While I think that proposing legislation is a good start, in many states it will be damn near impossible to get it passed.  Protest them.  Write letters to the editors.  Do a sting operation because some of these “clinics” have received sonograms paid for by right wingers.  Are they operating according to medical guidelines?  Are they adhering to HIPPA (privacy laws)?  Are they giving false medical diagnoses?  You know the answers to all of those questions.  These groups are just one tentacle in the neo-con Dobson party and represent their assault upon truth and medical accuracy.

      I have been washed clean by the H2O of science and born again in reason.

      by velouria on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:48:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is terrible (27+ / 0-)
    What about patient confidentiality?  What about a reasonable expectation of patient confientiality even if nothing was actually signed.

    I know I have never had any medical personnel sign such a document, even though I fully expect it.

    I hope these people are run out of town on rails.  I hope young women will step up to the plate and stand in solidarity with their sisters in their right not to be conned when they are in need.

    I don't have a problem with clinics setting up that offer alternatives to abortion.  But if their mission is to prevent abortions, then they should be forced to clearly state that, so that anyone who may decide they do want an abortion will not use their services.

    Thanks for sharing this.

    A vote for the Democrats is a vote for Democracy. A vote for the Republicans is a vote for Empire.

    by Bionic on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:09:23 PM PDT

    •  Excellent point (10+ / 0-)

      I don't have a problem with clinics setting up that offer alternatives to abortion.  But if their mission is to prevent abortions, then they should be forced to clearly state that, so that anyone who may decide they do want an abortion will not use their services.

      I'm not going to link to it (blech), but google "crisis pregnancy center" and click the first link -- "crisis pregnancy".

      Strangely, you are led to a perfectly innocent-looking site called "adoption.com" -- It's a big site, with a lot of info about adoption that -- for all I know -- is perfectly useful.

      It's hard to find info about abortion, but if you look for it, you'll find a lot of vaugely worded stuff about how you'll get dpressed, become infertile, and die.

      Then there are also prominent listings for "24-hour emergency hotlines" -- i.e. phone numbers.

      I can certainly see why it's good to have all kinds of info about adoption -- if that's what woman decides to do.  Isn't that what adoption agencies are for?

      In other words -- the site is a trap.  A woman is in "crisis" -- frightened and not sure what to do.  She is led to an "adoption site" that has 24 hour emergency hotlines.

      "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

      by LithiumCola on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:29:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They aren't medical professionals (8+ / 0-)

      I don't think laws regarding patient confidentiality apply. All they do is set up a shop advertising free counseling (most states don't regulate counseling) and then using the information they gather from unsuspecting people to harass them. If they asked for money, it would be blackmail, but our laws don't cover emotional blackmail.  People should be outraged. But since this is about abortion and religion, these idiots get away with it.

      They do get into trouble occasionally, though, when courageous women go forward or police set up stings.  There have been instances of these groups literally not allowing women out of their building until they promised to not have an abortion. But most women who get trapped in their snares are too afraid to come forward because they fear having it known that they became pregnant and had an abortion.

      •  Ooooh That's bad! (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Canadian Reader, Thursday Next
        I guess in their eyes that the end justifies the means.

        I think Christians should send some missionaries out to convert these people to the Good Book. It's obvious these folks are lacking in proper moral compasses.

        Conversion might help.

        (Full disclosure: not a Christian, but have met many very nice and good ones.)

        A vote for the Democrats is a vote for Democracy. A vote for the Republicans is a vote for Empire.

        by Bionic on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:20:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Perhaps they should simply read the bible (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bionic, tvb

          There is some good stuff in there about not judging others.  

          •  Trouble is that would mean (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dianem
            Thinking for themselves.
            These sorts of people like to act at the behest of others and borrow authority from the pack.

            The more I think of it maybe some Christian groups should do outreach and missionary programs to these groups.  Change their group identity to one that actually espouses Christian values.

            A vote for the Democrats is a vote for Democracy. A vote for the Republicans is a vote for Empire.

            by Bionic on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:53:00 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Women should report them to authorities but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran, Bionic

        They are filled with shame from feeling decieved.  In addition telling your community you sought abortion services is not easy.  They get targeted by nut jobs and their circumstances could be difficult.  The crisis pregnancy centers know this so they don't care to be too careful.

        I have been washed clean by the H2O of science and born again in reason.

        by velouria on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 05:01:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm a fairly confidant 41 year old (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Canadian Reader, theran, Bionic, hrh

          And very few people who know me know that I've had an abortion. I'm not the least ashamed, or sorry, but the christian right has stigmatized abortion to the point that a lot of people would think that I was either a murderess or a victim of a crime.  I really feel for the young girls who wind up in the clutches of these people.  They simply don't have any options, and probably don't have the resolution to stand up to them.

    •  They skirt the law (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bionic

      and the powers that be turn a blind eye to them.  I have wondered why they don't have to enact HIPPA (you know all those privacy forms you had to sign not too long ago at your docs and at the pharmacy).  We should tell them if they want to pretend they are a medical facility they need to live up to the rigorous guidelines all practitioners adhere to.  These groups are getting well funded through some faith based federal initiatives.  They also push BS abstinence only until heterosexual marriage education.  

      Millions of dollars are beginning to pour into them.  Deep pockets are purchasing sonogram equipment and even starting to put these “clinics” in malls.  In addition, the current administration appears to be doing everything it can to defund reproductive clinics with Title X money (federal funding for family planning for poor women).  We will see more and more of this until we get new people in office.  Wanna know who had the foresight to create Title X - Bush I and Nixon. Oh how deep the theo-crats have their claws into the Repubs.

      I have been washed clean by the H2O of science and born again in reason.

      by velouria on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:57:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  give lunatics an inch......... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    phinky, Pam from Calif, neroden, Sanuk

    and they will take everything.

    "How far up your ass do these guys dicks need to be before you realize they're fucking you?"- Bill Hicks -7.88, -7.13

    by bebacker on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:16:16 PM PDT

  •  Tried to sign the petition (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bumblebums, Cedwyn, Sanuk, PatsBard

    After I entered my name and address, this message appeared:

    We're sorry but it appears that you are not eligible to participate in this campaign. This campaign is designated for constituents of the targeted decisionmaker(s) and based upon your address, it appears that you do not live in an area represented by the targeted decisionmaker(s). If you would like to correct your address information, please return to

    http://www.ppaction.org/...

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    The eligible states appear to be: SD, OK, MO, IN, OH, KY, TN, WV, MI, AL, & GA.

    Google-bomb project: West Point Graduates Against the War

    by SheriffBart on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:24:51 PM PDT

  •  Here's the legislative info on the bill (16+ / 0-)

    First, the bill itself -- short, sweet, to the point.  This will make a great amendment to a must-pass bill.

    Stop Deceptive Advertising for Women's Services Act (Introduced in House)

    HR 5052 IH

    109th CONGRESS

    2d Session

    H. R. 5052
    To direct the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules prohibiting fraudulent advertising of abortion services.

    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    March 30, 2006
    Mrs. MALONEY (for herself, Mr. HINCHEY, Mr. MCGOVERN, Mr. SANDERS, Mr. ACKERMAN, Ms. SCHAKOWSKY, Mr. KUCINICH, Mr. WAXMAN, Mr. WEXLER, Mrs. CAPPS, Mr. GRIJALVA, Mr. CROWLEY, and Ms. WOOLSEY) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A BILL
    To direct the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules prohibiting fraudulent advertising of abortion services.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This Act may be cited as the `Stop Deceptive Advertising for Women's Services Act'.

    SEC. 2. PROHIBITION OF FRAUDULENT ADVERTISING OF ABORTION SERVICES.

    (a) Conduct Prohibited- Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Federal Trade Commission shall promulgate rules to prohibit any person to advertise with the intent to deceptively create the impression that such person is a provider of abortion services if such person does not provide abortion services.

    (b) Enforcement- The Federal Trade Commission shall enforce the rules required under subsection (a) as if a violation of such rules were a violation of section 5(a)(1) of the Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. 45(a)(1). The Commission shall enforce such rules in the same manner and by the same means, powers, and duties as though all applicable terms and provisions of the Federal Trade Commission Act were incorporated into and made a part of this Act.

    SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.

    For purposes of the rules prescribed under section 2, the following definitions apply:

    (1) ADVERTISE- The term `advertise' means offering of goods or services to the public, regardless of whether such goods or services are offered for payment or result in a profit.

    (2) ABORTION SERVICES- The term `abortion services' means providing surgical and non-surgical procedures to terminate a pregnancy, or providing referrals for such procedures.

    (3) PERSON- The term `person' has the meaning given such term in section 551(2) of title 5, United States Code.

    And the legis tracking info:

    H.R.5052
    Sponsor: Rep Maloney, Carolyn B. [NY-14] (introduced 3/30/2006)      Cosponsors (16)
    Latest Major Action: 4/19/2006 Referred to House  Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade and Consumer Protection.
    ----------------------------------------------------
    COSPONSORS(16), ALPHABETICAL)
    Rep Ackerman, Gary L. [NY-5] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 4/5/2006
    Rep Crowley, Joseph [NY-7] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Grijalva, Raul M. [AZ-7] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. [NY-22] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Kucinich, Dennis J. [OH-10] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 4/5/2006
    Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 4/5/2006
    Rep McGovern, James P. [MA-3] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Rothman, Steven R. [NJ-9] - 4/5/2006
    Rep Sanders, Bernard [VT] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Schakowsky, Janice D. [IL-9] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Waxman, Henry A. [CA-30] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Wexler, Robert [FL-19] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] - 3/30/2006

    -6.75, -5.79

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

    by edgery on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:34:06 PM PDT

  •  Teresa, so glad you did this diary (12+ / 0-)

    Planned Parenthood sent the email out last week, but I never took the time to do a diary. Thought someone else had probably done one and I just missed it.

    Nearly halfof the 6.3 million pregnancies in the United States each year are unintended.

    Anyway, here's a very important link with information about this techniques these manipulators are using and some help on how to recognize them and protect yourself and your friends.

    The staff at these misleading organizations (usually volunteers) have been known to use anti-abortion propaganda, misinformation, and intimidation to dissuade women from receiving an abortion. The main objective of these centers is to instill a sense of fear and guilt in women considering an abortion by distorting the medical facts and imposing a specific moral doctrine. Strongly question the information they provide you on abortion procedures [2].

    Many clients of these centers express feeling duped, manipulated, and pressured by religious preaching. Women are often persuaded to watch distasteful videos, and are shown pictures of stillborns that are portrayed as aborted fetuses. In some cases, women are harassed and physically impeded from leaving the center after telling their counselor they were going to have an abortion [3]...

    There are some  general rules you can follow to protect yourself from these centers...

    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

    by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:35:08 PM PDT

  •  Here's a list of suspicious (23+ / 0-)
    pregnancy centers.

    Listed below are the suspicious pregnancy centers in Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana.  [Sure hope kos doesn't get angry with me for posting this long information, but I thought it important]


    Suspicious Pregnancy Centers in Ohio

    These state-by-state lists are based on affiliations with pro-life organizations, customer complaints, and legally filed complaints, but do not include all deceptive centers in these states. Use your best judgment before deciding whether to visit a suspicious center.

    Akron
    *    Akron Pregnancy Services
    *    Suburban Pregnancy Services
    *    Pregnancy Care

    Cincinnati
    *    Abortion Accurate Information
    *    Birthright
    *    Cincinnati Crisis Pregnancy Center
    *    Pregnancy Care Center
    *    Pregnancy Center of Clermont (Milford)
    *    Pregnancy Center West
    *    Pregnancy Help Center
    *    Pregnancy Problem Center East

    Cleveland
    *    Birthright
    *    Faith Wellness & Pregnancy Center
    *    Healing Journey

    Columbus
    *    Alpha Pregnancy Counseling Center
    *    Birthright of Columbus (Downtown)
    *    Birthright of Columbus (North)
    *    Pregnancy Distress Center of Columbus
    *    Pregnancy Distress Center, East
    *    Pregnancy Distress Center (High Street)
    *    Pregnancy Distress Center (Ohio State University)
    *    Pregnancy Distress Center, West

    Dayton
    *    Dayton North Womens Center
    *    Elizabeth's New Life Center
    *    Miami Valley Women's Center
    *    Womanline of Dayton
    *    Women's Support Center

    Hamilton
    *    Problem Pregnancy Center

    Kent
    *    Birthright of Portage County
    *    Portage County Crisis Pregnancy Center

    Lebanon
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center for Hope

    Mansfield
    *    Emergency Pregnancy Aid Contact (EMPAC)
    *    Richland Pregnancy Services

    Medina
    *    Birthcare of Medina County

    Middletown
    *    Community Pregnancy Center

    Oxford
    *    Oxford Pregnancy Care Center

    Springfield
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center of Springfield
    *    Women's Network

    Toledo
    *    Pregnancy Center of Greater Toledo
    *    Heartbeat of Toledo (Madison Ave.)
    *    Heartbeat of Toledo (Southwyck Blvd.)

    Xenia
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center of Greene County
    Suspicious Pregnancy Centers in Indiana
    Bloomington
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center of Bloomington, Inc.

    Evansville
    *    Birthright
    *    Pregnancy Resource Centers (Bellmeade)
    *    Pregnancy Resource Centers (Weinbach)
    *    Pregnancy Center West
    *    Pregnancy Support

    Fort Wayne
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center

    Indianapolis
    *    Central Indiana Crisis Pregnancy Center
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center West
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center North
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center South
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center East

    Lafayette/West Lafayette
    *    LifeCare Services
    *    Matrix Lifeline Pregnancy Center

    Lawrenceberg
    *    Dearborn County Crisis Pregnancy Center

    Muncie
    *    Birthright
    *    Heart to Heart
    *    AAIM Crisis Pregnancy Center

    Richmond
    *    Birthright

    South Bend
    *    Women's Care Center (St. Louis Blvd.)
    *    Women's Care Center (Ironwood Circle)
    *    Women's Care Center (Chapin Street)
    *    Women's Care Center (S. Miami Street)
    *    Pregnancy Help Line

    Terre Haute
    *    Birthright
    *    Crisis Pregnancy Center Wabash County
    Suspicious Pregnancy Centers in Kentucky
    Bowling Green
    *    Pregnancy Support Center

    Florence
    *    Pregnancy Center of Northern Kentucky

    Lexington
    *    AA Pregnancy Help Center

    Louisville
    *    A Woman's Choice Resource Center (Preston Hwy.)
    *    A Woman's Choice Resource Center (E. Broadway)
    *    Birthright
    *    Opportunities for Life (South Shelby St.)
    *    Opportunities for Life (Poplar Level Rd.)
    *    Pregnancy Helpline
    *    Pregnancy Helpline East



    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

    by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:36:31 PM PDT

    •  If we had investigative journalism, (6+ / 0-)

      a pregnant woman would go to one of these clinics with a hidden camera for a in-depth report on these traps and how to spot them.  If we can get stories on used care salesmen...

    •  I know for a fact (0+ / 0-)

      that "A Woman's Choice" Pregnancy centers in Louisville are staffed by fundies--I personally know some of the people involved with them, even down to where they live. One of my ex-inlaws wives' had one of their workers for a foster mother.

      •  Do you have access to a small video camera (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tonyahky

        which uses discs?  And some people to go in undercover?

        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

        by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:49:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh...you're making the cogs turn (0+ / 0-)

          I don't have one right now--but I've been meaning to buy one. I also know of cheap, easy ways to record phone converstions--it's legal here in KY.

          •  Careful! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tvb, tonyahky

            I love the idea, but were I you, I'd leave it to the professionals. Even if you can't gat any local TV news outfits interested, I'm sure you could find a local documentary film crew to do something. I'd advise against doing it on your own. Could be dangerous, legally and otherwise.

            As for the print side, I'll take care of that. :)

            Conservatives love America like four-year-old kids love their mommies. -Al Franken

            by leftilicious on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:00:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just get them on the phone (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ahianne

              if you can't pull off actually getting inside the place. Tell them some bullshit story--and see what kind of answers they give you. In Ky, like I statd above, it's legal to record a phone conversation as long as one party (the caller) knows the call is being recorded.

              I did it to an old landlord I had--he was giving me a lot of trouble over some repairs I needed. I went to the newspaper with our recorded phone calls--and ended up on the front page.

    •  Birthright - deceptive??? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RunawayRose, musicteacher

      My mom is a regional consultant for Birthright International. If any Birthright members or chapters are in any way undertaking deceptive practices to lure and deceive abortion seekers then it would definitely be worthwhile for her to know it.

      My mom and I are both solidly Pro-Life, but we are of the sort that would rather light a candle than stick our noses in other people's right to choose. From what I know of the Birthright charter they are distinctly and pronouncedly opposed to advocacy, and any political shenanigans as you describe. Please provide details, as I said, this does not sound right.

      DFooK

      "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

      by deepfish on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:59:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Further - quoting from Birthright's own material (0+ / 0-)

        BIRTHRIGHT DOES NOT
        ...use "scare tactics" or pressure.
        ...show abortion slides or pictures.
        ...picket or harass abortion clinics.
        ...evangelize.
        ...lobby for legislative changes or engage in the public debate on abortion.

        Foundhere.. I would stress that you or your sources are mistaken in including Birhright in your list, but if you are not, then Birthright would really welcome any details of these allegations.

        DFooK

        "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

        by deepfish on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:10:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm not going to argue with you on this thread (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theran

        about the facts contained in that article and the guilt trip doesn't play with me.  It was documented and put out for women to use for their own personal use.

        Pregnancy is a time for personal reflection for each woman.  It is her decision to look and think and analyze what is best. Pregnancy is expensive and time-consuming and it sure doesn't need to be made more difficult than it already is.

        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

        by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:06:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Guilt trip? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gmhowell

          I have no idea who you are, dear, but any guilt trip you seem to be on is of your own fabrication. Also - I'm not seeking your argument, just details

          For example - you post a list (would it be unreasonable to ask for a source, citation or link?)

          You post your list with a broad brush of a title, referring to an organization with which I have personal, familial and particular knowledge and association.

          You post your list in a thread that alleges the worst most vile and reprehensible conduct and you therefore associate this organization with these allegations.

          If an investigation of your "list" shows that Birthright chapters or individuals in any way went against the charter and stated philosophy of the organization then I would want to know about it, and I know from past experience that responsible members of the organization would want to know about it.

          You see, and I think you know, ma'am, when you make nebulous scattershot assertions of "suspicious" behaviour and practices then you must expect to be queried by people as to the nature, scope, and source for your assertions.

          That's only reasonable.

          All I'm asking for is details. If you can't provide same - fine.

          Pregnancy is a time for personal reflection for each woman.  It is her decision to look and think and analyze what is best. Pregnancy is expensive and time-consuming and it sure doesn't need to be made more difficult than it already is.

          Please do point out to me where exactly you are reading into my posts that I said that preganacy should be harder than it is?

          Good luck on your solo excursion.

          DFooK

          "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

          by deepfish on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:49:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well, is it getting too hot? Hallelujah! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hrh, deepfish


            From the Episcopalion.org listserv:

            ...New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer issued subpoenas to three New York City-area centers, which are among the 3,000 non-profit, mostly Christian-based groups that help pregnant women find alternatives to abortion...

            In the worst scenario, the case could set a legal precedent that would shut down the entire crisis pregnancy center movement, said Chris Slattery, director of a counseling service with five sites in New York City.

            "The heart and soul of the pro-life movement is threatened by this," Slattery told WorldNetDaily, "because if they come up with this neat conclusion that the lay counselors are incompetent, or too dangerous to counsel women, then most centers will not be able to afford to pay professionals or to get enough of them to volunteer."

            I would sincerely hope it is NOT the intention of any member of your organization or "group" to harass or otherwise inflict any more harm on these young women who are reporting these disturbing issues. Anyway, it seems these manipulations by zealots are having repercussions across the nation.  Thank goodness for small miracles. But, I am under no illusions but what that this diary has set off alarms and emails have been sent fast and furious.

            Okay, so I did leave off the link (I was leaving and had to post in hurry). Anyway, here are some links for you about the reported deceptive practices.  Have fun reading.

            Complete Reports & Articles on the Deceptive Practices of CPC's:

            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

            by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 05:40:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Gratuitous Weather and Religious References (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              musicteacher

              I'm not feeling any discomfort with the temperature, but thanks for asking.

              And thank you for the links, such as they are.

              By the way, and for future reference, its spelled EpiscopaliAN. An EpiscopaliON, I believe, was the sort of beast present in the Colliseum, who refused to devour Christians until they had been properly introduced.

              I thank you for the opportunity to read WorldNet Daily, something I usually avoid doing. I find it interesting that you are making common cause with the writers of this stuff.

              It is to the benefit of the wingnuts to make the scaremongering fetus-shaking fraud artist advocates seem just the same as the legitimate abortion alternatives out there. They can then continue to masquerade as wolves and sheeps clothing and cause untold damage to women, who are either seeking abortion or seeking other alternatives, and to the people out there who want to help... But what benefit do you get out of conflating the two?

              There is no mention of Birthright in the WORLDNet article.

              Your NARAL link just repeats the same as what you posted - is this your source for the initial list? - with no detail. Indeed, a most interesting link that promises details on legal challenges to centres that carry out deceptive practices is disappointinly dead. The three other links just go to the same page. I assume you had problems with your links.

              Interestingly though, there is this:

              These centers attract women faced with unintended pregnancies who are "at risk" for abortion. They advertise themselves under various aliases of neutral-sounding themes, including but not limited to "Crisis Pregnancy Center," "Pregnancy Counseling Center," "Pregnancy Care Center," "Pregnancy Aid," and others of similar theme

              .

              Just FYI, and you can call me extremist on this one, I happen to think that Birthright is about as far as you can get from neutral-sounding if you're trying to be "suspicious" about providing abortion alternative services.

              There's a link on the bottom of the page about the threat of these CPC's seeking government funding. I can assure you that this is not the case with Birthright. They have never sought government funding and are quite strict with avoiding it. The article makes no specific mention of Birthright.

              I trust that the three other apparently messed up links in your message (Planned Parent, Guttmacher and Alternet) are to specific details of allegations of "suspicious" practices by Birthright, otherwise we're just going to be talking past each other.

              Understand me - I too find these CPC's to be reprehensible in thought, theory and practice. They are staffed by the same hypocritical, thuggish, bloody minded and and pharisaic personality types that make the so-called Pro-Life moment in your country a (dangerous) joke.

              I just don't find that Birthright ddeserves to be lumped in with them.

              DFooK

              "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

              by deepfish on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 07:23:11 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You must be aware the WND article was meant (0+ / 0-)

                to inflame forced-birth people.  To get those funds flowing. I deliberately used it even though it was from WND so that readers here are aware of the rising tensions.

                Per the links --I did not click through on those links to check that they followed through --I just right clicked and copied the link and pasted it in.  Too much work and nothing accomplished. Oh well...I'm sure if someone is interested enough --google will find the appropriate article from the specified sources.

                So sue me over EpiscopaLION. They are lions in this war though. Heh.

                And, as you should be well aware, the young women and specific clinics may not be named because the forced-birth people are bat-shit crazy.  They kill people. Premeditated murder.

                Hell would freeze over before I helped you forced-birth people hurt one more woman.

                <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:51:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  From your posts I can see... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...that you really do believe in some things.

                  But the only thing I can see quite clearly from your posts is that you believe in "reading in" motives and positions for, and resorting to ad hominem attacks against, those you falsely see as your enemies.

                  Sad.

                  FYI (in the hope that you CAN read) I have never "forced a birth" on anyone. Nor has anyone I know or support. Your characterization of me is beneath you, but sadly, not uncommon on either side of the pro-choice/anti-abortion barricades.

                  Indeed, there is very little practical difference between our positions on abortion. By supporting, post-facto, womens' choices to have their children (materially, socially, spiritually) I would argue that Birthright is just as much pro-choice as you are.

                  For there to be a choice there have to be chooseable options. A woman who chooses to continue her pregnancy deserves support - does she not? And I fully agree with you that a woman seeking information for her choice does not deserve duplicity and coercion. Not knowing your background, I would hesitate to say that I have more reason to feel disgust and aversion to these types, but I would say that I do have sufficient personal experience with the extreme anti-abortion movement to take your list very seriously.

                  If you are unwilling or unable to make the effort to provide sourcing and relevant details for the allegations concerning Birthright, just say so. I have not attacked you personally, please make an effort to refrain from doing likewise.

                  "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                  by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:26:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  your position on choice is immoral and (1+ / 2-)
                Recommended by:
                carneystaff
                Hidden by:
                deepfish, thomaswilliam

                unreasonable.  One day the government might decide that it is in the public interest to limit the birthrate and a law might be passed forcing women to have abortions or at least to consider it.  Women could be forced to watch videos showing how horrifying parenthood can be.

                Pro-choice is the moral moderate postion.  Every woman controls her own body and life.  No one presume to be the moral arbiter for anyone else in a matter that is clearly a private medical decision.

                Substituting your judgment for someone else's in a private matter is unamerican and  reeks of fascism.

                •  Please do tell me... (0+ / 0-)

                  What my position on abortion is. I am all ears.

                  Seriously - and all snark aside - how can you choose to debtae my position on abortion when I have not staed what my position is? This whole threasd is about asking for information.

                  Is it unreasonable to ask for details about accusations and allegations?

                  AS far as my position on the legal and political question of abortion - will it satisfy you if I said that my country has not had a law governing abortion for years now, and that suits me fine? Or instead,  will it frustrate you that you can't play with your straw man argument dollies?

                  DFooK

                  "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                  by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:32:31 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Why is BirthRight on here? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      deepfish

      We have them around here in Central NY.  They are very upfront about who they are and what they do. They are pro-life but they admit it up front and in my opinion do pro-life correctly.  They actually offer help for the women through the pregnancies and after the baby is born in a non-judgemental fashion.  There is also another organization called Gabriel's Message or something along those lines that does the same thing.  They shouldn't be lumped in with deceptive, hateful thugs.

      •  Obviously, Birthright has been reported by women (0+ / 0-)

        and that is one of the reasons they are on the list.  

        In fact, they are on the list many many times.

        Women may be poor and they may not have the power to alter the society in which they find themselves pregnant, but, they can talk and they can discuss and they can report. You can't stop it.

        <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

        by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:54:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That doesn't make sense (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          deepfish

          How are they fraudulent if they claim to be pro-life right up front?  I think what the clinic in the story did was terrible but I still don't see why all pro-life clinics should be lumped together with those that commit fraudulent practices.

          BTW I am all for reporting fraudulent clinics but I don't see how a clinic that openly admits it is prolife is committing any fraud.  You could just as easily say Planned Parenthood is suspicious if your bias is pro choice.  Fraud is separate from ideology.

          •  BTW I am pro choice (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            deepfish

            I have difficulty seeing why legitimate organizations should be targeted when there are real shady ones to go after.  Demonizing eveyone who is Prolife does not help your cause.  I don't think it is fair to compare Deepfish or her mother to people who picket clinics, mislead and do hateful things.  I also think it's unfair to label all people who are Pro Choice as "baby killers" and whatever the heck else the wackjobs on the other side call us.

            In The Art of War, Sun Tzu (or however the heck you spell it) said "Know thy enemy"  I don't think that all Prolife people are coming at it from the "forced birth", American Taliban mindset.  Not all of them are hurting women and some are actually putting their money where their mouth is and helping people in need so it's wrong to go after legitimate clinics that claim to be prolife in their mission statements.  You would have to be STUPID to go to a place that openly claims to be prolife right up front to seek an abortion anyway.  If the people that created the list, or reported these clinics to the list can't figure that out they should not be taken seriously.

            •  yes and I am the Queen of England (2+ / 2-)
              Recommended by:
              bronte17, carneystaff
              Hidden by:
              hopscotch1997, thomaswilliam

              We actually have no way of knowing whether you are pro-choice or not, so it really is nothing more than a meaningless disclaimer.  

              •  Do you know what you just said? (0+ / 0-)

                You just undermined all debate with that comment. Think about it.

                I have not openly challenged the veracity of the list because I have no proof that it is a lie. I have asked for details and evidence though.

                If you really start by not trusting anything anybody else says, then there is no basis to debate at all.

                I think the truth is worth getting at. I happen to believe that the allegations against Birthright must be false, but it would be just as valuable to me to find out what they were and to find out that they were true. Please note that while I doubt the allegations made in the list, I did not accuse the poster of lying.

                Why would I waste time debating with someone who I believed to be a liar, or Ibelieved me to be the same?

                "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:44:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Happy Birthday then Queenie! (0+ / 0-)

                I really hope you are going after that in the context of how to debate.  If you would really like my Pro Choice credentials or whatever I find that offensive and would be unable to prove anything without identifying myself on a public forum which is unwise for many obvious reasons.

                I will say this.  I have a medical condition that puts me at risk for very dangerous life threatening pregnancies.  I did have to terminate a pregnancy to save my own life.  I feel that I have a lot at stake in the context of the abortion debate as my life is literally on the line and the children I do have deserve a mother.  If the anti-choice crowd wins I could die.  I already feel threatened that they are trying to ban medical procedures.  So by all means go after them, don't waste time on Birthright as it is exactly what it says it is.

                BTW I live in upstate NY.  Don't you know that if they were doing anything wrong, Spitzer would have taken them out a long time ago?  

          •  Let's take a first step before I post more (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            deepfish

            Young women do not have the experience nor the depth of knowledge to differentiate between "crisis centers" and women's health centers.  They pick up a phonebook and look for numbers to call in order to get prices and locations. You know that.  They don't go there looking for Sunday school lectures on the fire and brimstone of hellfire.  Do you really think young women understand your framing of language?

            And, the site says:

            These state-by-state lists are based on affiliations with pro-life organizations, customer complaints, and legally filed complaints, but do not include all deceptive centers in these states.

            Adoption is a big business and it has grown exponentially every year. This isn't all about protecting the women involved.

            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

            by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 09:34:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry, didn't look at the site (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              deepfish

              I can see what you are saying but I still think that it doesn't take that much sophistication to figure out not to go there especially when they advertise, at least in my market anyway, who they are, what they do and why they exist.  You are selling young women's intelligence very short.  Affiliation with a pro life agency should not be an issue if they are not being deceptive about it.  If there is deception involved then by all means go after the bastards, but don't waste time on ones who are not being decpetive for just existing.  By that same logic, wingnuts can and do harass PP and other prochoice orgs just for their existence.

            •  Thanks (0+ / 0-)

              For reposting that. It gives me a basis to show why I doubt the list.

              These state-by-state lists are based on affiliations with pro-life organizations, customer complaints, and legally filed complaints, but do not include all deceptive centers in these states

              .

              Birthright is categorically not affiliated with any "pro-life" organizations.

              I know that for a fact  because I personally witnessed my mom and other Birthright officials fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way early in the history of the organization. I am therefore inclined to look with doubt on the list as a whole. I would like to see examples of the two other categories, if they are available.  I am not cognizent of any legally filed complainst against Birthright. You have not provided any evidence of client complaints.

              If you can't or won't then just say so.

              "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

              by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:51:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  *and* most importantly CUSTOMER COMPLAINTS (0+ / 0-)

                and LEGALLY FILED COMPLAINTS.

                I'm not digging through Eliot Spitzer's files on this.  I think he is investigating something like 23 of these "crisis centers" and if you want the info, dig through it.

                There are investigations, there are legal complaints on file and it is legitimate.

                You yourself just said your mom fought to keep birthright not affiliate with "prolife" organizations "early in the history."  Times change and so do organizations.

                <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                by bronte17 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:01:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Legally Filed complaints (0+ / 0-)

                  ...by Eliot Spitzer...

                  ...in a case in New York...

                  ..with no connection to the list you provided...

                  ...and no mention if any of these complaints are connected to Birthright...

                  ...smells like a rather cavalier attitude towards reputations.

                  The fight against creepin advocacy in Birthright has been carried out from its inception and is constantly ongoing. For this reason I am very interested in any details you could have provided.

                  I believe that Birthright was if not the original pregnancy help provider, one of the first. I would say that the rise of fraudulent agencies has been in part due to the fact that these people could not get Birthright to "roll over".

                  As mentioned by me and at least one other on this thread - the name of the organization is BIRTHright. Their very name militates against any claim of duplicity. They are quite clearly very open about their position and thier services.

                  I have shown where they claim to be nonpolitical. You have shown no proof otherwise. I have stated that they have been adamant in their refusal to affiliate with ANY pro-life group. This has not stopped you from assocating them, again without providing any proof.

                  Now you conflate your provided "suspicious list" of services in teh midwest with an investigation by Eliot Spitzer where Birthright is not mentioned at all, to my knowledge..

                  This is commonly called a smear job, and beneath you.

                  This whole thread reminds me of something. I recall a meeting at the YWCA years ago. The YWCA invited representatives from the ProChoice political side and an abortion service provider, and from the Anti-abortion side, and from Birthright.

                  The AntiAbortion crowd didn't bother to show up.

                  The YWCA had obviously scriptwritten a whole scenario of confrontation and the Antiabortion side chickened out. What the YWCA had also not bargained on was that they couldn't fit Birthright (and specifically my mom) into their prewritten role. They had my mom pegged wrong.

                  My mom started her address by stating that since Birthright was non political she would not, and could not, and did not want to, debate abortion. But if anyone had questions or concerns she'd be happy to explain the services and resources that Birthright had available.

                  The speakers from the prochoice side all knew my mom. If the YWCA had done their homework they would not have been surprised. There were some loaded questions and vague accusations from the audience, all premised on misinformation or confusion about Birthright. One woman railed away at my mom about specific instances of coercion and falshoods and bad conduct, all the while waving a file around in the air. When she read from it, we soon resolved the matter, it turned out that she had Birthright confused with a totally different organization.

                  "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                  by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:16:18 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Look, I'm old enough to have been around (0+ / 0-)

                    the block a few times. From Columbus, Ohio to NY to PA to various other states --I am well aware of personal acquaintances and friends and their stories.

                    I've lived it, I've seen it, I've heard it, I know it.

                    As per your "example" of the "chicken" anti-abortion groups --pfffttt.  It takes a tremendous amount of courage and good hearts and resolve to maintain health clinics for women. The forced-birth people are extremists and exceedingly dangerous and they kill people. And, I have no clue what transpired on that day in that location with that group.  Maybe their clinic was bombed the night before. Hmmm?  Happens all the time. It's SOP for the forced-birth people. In lieu of suicide bombers --it's homicide bombers.

                    Women are now dying because they cannot get the health care they need and deserve.  Their lives are getting harsher by the day. You are an enabler for the repressors, so pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

                    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                    by bronte17 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:58:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Pardon me - but I don't get your point. (0+ / 0-)

                      As per your "example" of the "chicken" anti-abortion groups --pfffttt.  It takes a tremendous amount of courage and good hearts and resolve to maintain health clinics for women.

                      To whom are you referring here?

                      DFooK

                      "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                      by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 10:42:45 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  Nothing obvious about it... (0+ / 0-)

          There is no documentation of what the allegations are, how they were made, if and how they were investigated, corraborated or proven.

          Just a list.

          Sounds familiar - doesn't it?

          "Mr. Chairman I have a list of (fill in blank here) communists in the State Department"

          DFooK

          "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

          by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:36:10 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What don't you understand about LEGALLY FILED (0+ / 0-)

            COMPLAINTS?   This means some women reported these activities and someone assisted them in going to a courthouse or government office to actually file a legal complaint.

            ...customer complaints, and legally filed complaints...

            Now, many many light years ago, some people actually helped women and passed these laws that shield women's identity from stalkers and abusive men.  But, you are throwing up a straw man to beat up here because you or your organization want the names and addresses and identities of the women who have reported this.

            <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

            by bronte17 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:54:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  When you have a legally filed complaint... (0+ / 0-)

              Notice is served on the defendant to the complaint, is it not?

              My point is that I have inquired and I have not found any account or knowledge of legal complaints being filed against Birthright International or chapters that you speak of (perhaps these complaints exist, but my sources have not heard of them).

              That leaves client complaints as the most likely basis for Birthright being included on the list. I find that interesting.

              "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

              by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:02:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So, let me ask --did you send out emails (0+ / 0-)

                yesterday to all your affiliates and inquire about any notices?

                Did everyone respond and are they in the administrative position to know of these legalities within their own affiliate?

                <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                by bronte17 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 07:10:28 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Nope. (0+ / 0-)

                  Picked up the phone and called my mom.

                  She called me back today.

                  No word on any "legal complaints" received in the midwest. So that "suspicious" list must be based on the even more nebulous "customer complaints".

                  As for the Spitzer bit - that is three year old news. One small Birthright chapter in upstate New York responded to the threat of subpoenas by immediately caving to all the DA's requirements.

                  While the local chapter still holds that they did not take part in deceptive practices, they were more than willing to sign on to the DA's requirements. The DA complimented them on their cooperation.

                  So much for these Birthrights being dyed in the wool, frothing at the mouth "forced birth" deceivers.

                  Got anything else?

                  DFooK

                  "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                  by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:14:18 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So, here we are: the word of NARAL and others (0+ / 0-)

                    vs. your mom. And some phone call that magically eradicates all the discussion.

                    I don't know you and I don't know your mom from Adam. Your "proof" is nothing. No substance, no substantiation, nothing.

                    I know NARAL and I know women who have experienced these problems. I know the forced-birth mindset and the gravity of the problems you have forced upon women. It is reprehensible.

                    <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                    by bronte17 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 08:32:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The rules of debate refresher for Bronte17 (0+ / 0-)
                      1. The accuser gets to provide proof. You, as the originator of allegations, have to provide some sort of proof. So far you have not provided one scintilla of evidence to support why Birthright is included on your little McCarthyesque "list".

                      I have gone on record as having personal knowledge and access to knowledge on this, I have someone willing to go on the record as to any details you could dig up. All you and Teresa have done is resort to dubious and egregious debate tactics, which brings me to:

                      1. Appeal to Authority/Anonymous Authority.

                      Some list maker for Planned Parenthood made a list, so the list must be factual and even above examination or the rules of evidence. Anyone who doubts must this list is a heretic/forced birther etc etc. which brings me to:

                      1. Ad hominem attacks. ("you must be lying when you claim to be pro-choice") Generalization. ("we have a list that has some names, even without proving ANYTHING about the list, we can say that ALL Birthrights are the same"). Absurd internal contradictions which insult intelligence ("BIRTHright is obviously out to fool abortion choosers"). really do you no credit, and your performance actually hurts your cause. Which brings me to the final point, in case you missed it:
                      • Spitzer is three year old news.
                      • It is not, as you seem to want people to believe, an ongoing investigation or court case.
                      • It was settled long ago.
                      • It involved one (1) small chapter of Birthright in Victor New York, a small town upstate.
                      • This Birthright was the only one included with about 22 other "CPC's".
                      • Significantty enough the Birthright chapter was the first to come to an agreement. Though they denied ever conciously engaging in deceit, they agreed to follow  a list of recommendations set up by the DA.
                      • For this they were roundly criticized by those you would falsely associate them with.
                      • Spitzer's office complimented them on their cooperation. This from From the Attorney General's Website: Dated February 28 2002.Why wouldn't they cooperate? HIs recommendations meet with Birthrights own prescribed practices.

                      All of these are facts. See how they bite your assertions in the ass? If you get any facts of your own to back up your assertions please do call me.

                      DFooK

                      "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                      by deepfish on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 03:17:41 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  obviously all birthright operations (0+ / 0-)

        are not equal.  But that is hardly surprizing for an organization run by anti-choice people.  It is only a small step from interfering judgemental moralist to machiavelian control freak.  

        •  So since you know so much about it... (0+ / 0-)

          It is only a small step from interfering judgemental moralist to machiavelian control freak.  

          Please do tell me where on the spectrum I and all the people I know and love fall.

          Ad hominem is sooooooo neat to use, isn't it?. It does away with ever ever having to resort to stronger arguments or make the effort to see where your supposed opponent is coming from.

          You must lead an interesting life, but since I know nothing of it I would not dare to characterize or generalize you just from the little I see here today.

          "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

          by deepfish on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 06:55:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Here's the legislative info on the bill (4+ / 0-)

    First, the bill itself -- short, sweet, to the point.  This will make a great amendment to a must-pass bill.

    Stop Deceptive Advertising for Women's Services Act (Introduced in House)

    HR 5052 IH

    109th CONGRESS

    2d Session

    H. R. 5052
    To direct the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules prohibiting fraudulent advertising of abortion services.

    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    March 30, 2006
    Mrs. MALONEY (for herself, Mr. HINCHEY, Mr. MCGOVERN, Mr. SANDERS, Mr. ACKERMAN, Ms. SCHAKOWSKY, Mr. KUCINICH, Mr. WAXMAN, Mr. WEXLER, Mrs. CAPPS, Mr. GRIJALVA, Mr. CROWLEY, and Ms. WOOLSEY) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Energy and Commerce

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A BILL
    To direct the Federal Trade Commission to prescribe rules prohibiting fraudulent advertising of abortion services.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This Act may be cited as the `Stop Deceptive Advertising for Women's Services Act'.

    SEC. 2. PROHIBITION OF FRAUDULENT ADVERTISING OF ABORTION SERVICES.

    (a) Conduct Prohibited- Not later than 180 days after the date of enactment of this Act, the Federal Trade Commission shall promulgate rules to prohibit any person to advertise with the intent to deceptively create the impression that such person is a provider of abortion services if such person does not provide abortion services.

    (b) Enforcement- The Federal Trade Commission shall enforce the rules required under subsection (a) as if a violation of such rules were a violation of section 5(a)(1) of the Federal Trade Commission Act (15 U.S.C. 45(a)(1). The Commission shall enforce such rules in the same manner and by the same means, powers, and duties as though all applicable terms and provisions of the Federal Trade Commission Act were incorporated into and made a part of this Act.

    SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.

    For purposes of the rules prescribed under section 2, the following definitions apply:

    (1) ADVERTISE- The term `advertise' means offering of goods or services to the public, regardless of whether such goods or services are offered for payment or result in a profit.

    (2) ABORTION SERVICES- The term `abortion services' means providing surgical and non-surgical procedures to terminate a pregnancy, or providing referrals for such procedures.

    (3) PERSON- The term `person' has the meaning given such term in section 551(2) of title 5, United States Code.

    And the legis tracking info:

    H.R.5052
    Sponsor: Rep Maloney, Carolyn B. [NY-14] (introduced 3/30/2006)      Cosponsors (16)
    Latest Major Action: 4/19/2006 Referred to House  Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade and Consumer Protection.
    ----------------------------------------------------
    COSPONSORS(16), ALPHABETICAL)
    Rep Ackerman, Gary L. [NY-5] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 4/5/2006
    Rep Crowley, Joseph [NY-7] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Grijalva, Raul M. [AZ-7] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. [NY-22] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Kucinich, Dennis J. [OH-10] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 4/5/2006
    Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 4/5/2006
    Rep McGovern, James P. [MA-3] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Rothman, Steven R. [NJ-9] - 4/5/2006
    Rep Sanders, Bernard [VT] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Schakowsky, Janice D. [IL-9] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Waxman, Henry A. [CA-30] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Wexler, Robert [FL-19] - 3/30/2006
    Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] - 3/30/2006

    -6.75, -5.79

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

    by edgery on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 01:36:32 PM PDT

  •  I have to go run an errand for my son (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raatz, JoeWPgh, Margot

    talk amoung yourselves. = )

  •  It's always a good day (3+ / 0-)

    It's always a good day when I get to come here and agree with Teresa on something.

    •  yes, and although teresa thinks I'm a (0+ / 0-)

      Christian persecuter (persecuter of Christians, that is), I share her outrage at this and would gladly join her pulling on the rope that strings these fuckers up.

      -8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

      by claude on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:05:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  claude please don't imagine my thoughts (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        claude, hrh

        it is insulting to suggest I am one of those people who think Christians are persecuted... a particular conceit of some anti-theists on liberal message boards.  I am not paranoid nor do I ignore that you can hardly persecute the majority in this country.  But that doesn't change the fact that some people make really bigoted ignorant remarks about Christians and religion in general. I honestly don't remember what you might have said on the topic. I don't mean that as an insult, there are simply very few people I hold a grudge against and you are one of them.

        If you had not made this post I never would have remembered that we ever argued about this topic.  

        •  grudge? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Canadian Reader

          there is no need to hold a grudge, teresa. I'm a very nice crotchety old man, and I hold no ill will towrds you. We probably would agree on zillions of things, were we to sit down and just talk.  

          I apologize for even bringing it up, and re-opening what I realise now is  a wound. Go in peace.

          -8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

          by claude on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 08:47:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  FRAUD-Based Initiative (0+ / 0-)

    this is so sick...can they be prosecuted for making a false call to the police?

  •  They are liars (0+ / 0-)

    if they are "religious" they are by definition liars - the sooner everyone learns that simple truth, the better off everyone will be.

    •  Not all religious people are lairs. (9+ / 0-)

      I get very tired of people demeaning anyone whose religious position differs from heirs. I am WIccan. I am also pro-choice, a feminist, hard left on civil rights, gay rights, birth control, and most other liberal values.  I am that way because of my religious beliefs, not in spite of them.  I know a lot of people just like me.

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:22:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree with you (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ahianne, UniC, paddykraska

        there is a huge differnece between those who seek Truth (with a capital "T") and those whose dogma is a tool they use to justify their hatreds and sins against themselves and others.

      •  Easy there tiger (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        UniC

        I think religious in the context of these discussion is baptist/presbyterian...not Wiccan.  It's safe to say that the vast majority (80%) of the aforementioned religious groups living in the "red" states are the source of contention we are addressing.  I can't think of anything annoying on a public scale a Wiccan has done recently.

        •  But again, the term used was 'religious' (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ahianne, hrh, bjackrian, tonyahky

          And not even all Baptists or Presbyterians are conservatives. There's a deep divide between many NOTHERN or mainstream Baptists (;like Jimmy carter) and what the Southern Baptist Convention hs become.  A lot of them stay and hope to change the group from within. And my in-laws, much though we disagree on many issues,a re Southern hristians whoa re strongly pro-choice, even the one who had real medical issues with both pregnancies and on an emotional level has trouble with abortion--NONE of them would be in favor of this crap.

          My point is that "religious"covers a wide spectrum, not just the Fundy-vangies like the broad in my country who wants Harry Potter pulled off public school shelves. You need to be specific on this, not make general statements--because you re insulting a lot of deeply religious liberals (like my father) who would strongly frown on the family crisis centers (even if they are iffy on choice).

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:44:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Amen, sister! (5+ / 0-)

            Pro-choice liberal Catholic here.

            It may be an arguable position to say that religious people are deluded, but calling us liars is arrogant. The poster implies that he/she/it knows our minds and consciences. Omniscience, anyone?

            •  You guys are taking it personally (0+ / 0-)

              The reality of the sitution is that the Southern Baptist Convention is the great religious power in the US and you can bet it has it's greasy little finger in these faux clinics.  I believe they outnumber catholics close to 4 to 1.  Northern baptist are decreasing in number and being absorbed by the bigger SBC (it's like 80/20 now) This is all pretty well spelled out in "American Theocracy" by Phillips (good read!).  While religion is good for the individual/family, it is horrible for the country and what your are witnessing is the effects of big money religion infiltrating our goverment.  See the big picture....

              •  No. We are not. (6+ / 0-)

                The term used was "religious" not "Southern Baptists" and not "religious fundamentalists". We are merely pointing out that a general statement ws made that is insulting to the moderate and liberal Christians here at Does. Take responsibility for you wording,. We can't read anyone's minds. And considering the number of "anyone who believes in any religion at all is stupid" diaries here, it's likely to be meant as we interpreted it.

                Don't lecture me on Southern Baptists either. I LIVE In the South--and I have gotten reamed here by Southerners who took offense because I pointed out how intolerantthe culture and how much of that is the fault of the churches--they encourage unquestioning acceptance, discourage curiosity nad encourage intolerance of other faiths.

                And I thin Catholics may actually outnumber SBC members---and a good half of thema re liberal and pro-choice.  Be more careful and don't make such a sweeping statement next time. There are many liberal believers. And THAT is something that isn't bad to point out--that many believers of many faiths, including Christianity,  are liberals and pro-choice.

                The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                by irishwitch on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:45:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I don't take it personally (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joanneleon

                I'm not religious, period. But I recognize the right of others to pursue their own religious and philosophical views--we can't color all religious people with the same brush. I think the problem is with those who want to infiltrate the government--and those who think they have the right to force their religious views on others.

              •  Your wrong about the number of Catholics (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RunawayRose, Ahianne, hrh

                Catholics are by far the largest single religious denomination in America. At least according to the US Census Bureau.

                Catholic 50,873,000
                Baptist 33,830,000

                And of course there are about 10,000 different Baptist churches.

                And it has been like that for a long time.  The 1990 numbers were 46 million and 34 million respectively.

                Even in Idaho, where I live, a Mormon stronghold, Catholics are the largest single church. It's weird, because no one seems to know this.  

        •  I am a presbyterian (0+ / 0-)

          careful there  lol

      •  OK I should have qualified it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        UniC

        but if I had said "chrisitans" I would have gotten more shit :))

  •  Ugh, I can't wait until 2009 (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    UniC, joanneleon

    and have a different president and administration.

    I hope in 2006 we'll have a majority too.

    Good diary

    "A child miseducated is a child lost" John F. Kennedy

    by Pam from Calif on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:04:51 PM PDT

  •  Is there an address (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Patriot for Al Gore, bjackrian

    or number of this clinic? Who did she talk to?

  •  This is depressing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bronte17, tonyahky

    When I worked in this field in the late 1980's, this issue was being persued by state Attorneys General - Texas' AG was particularly aggressive iirc.  I helped to work on hearings chaired by the wonderful Don Edwards in his subcommittee on Civil and Constitutional Rights.  We were really making progress, and there was a lot of press.

    So sad that nearly 20 years later it's the same M.O.

  •  How do we know (5+ / 0-)

    this really happened? Do you trust the source?

    Not that I think it's a lie, necessarily ... but I do like to see some documentation of stories like this. Anybody got some?

    Conservatives love America like four-year-old kids love their mommies. -Al Franken

    by leftilicious on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:24:27 PM PDT

    •  the president of planned parenthood (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theran, hrh, tonyahky

      is not going to make up a story.  That would be the end of their credibility.

      •  I agree, but (4+ / 0-)

        the story is just too lacking in details for my taste ... but that's the journalist in me. I'm sure a bit of websurfing will turn up details.

        Conservatives love America like four-year-old kids love their mommies. -Al Franken

        by leftilicious on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:32:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or not ... (5+ / 0-)

          I don't find anything on the Internets about this story except that it appears on many, many websites practically verbatim as it appears on the email from PPFA. I doubt the president of PPFA made it up, but she might have gotten it from a different website. I want to see a news account of this before I believe it. Sorry but we need facts on our side. Overstating the case based on not-entirely-true or unsubstantiated stories ... that's what Republicans do.

          Conservatives love America like four-year-old kids love their mommies. -Al Franken

          by leftilicious on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:36:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't believe you (5+ / 6-)

            don't have a problem with abortion.  I think accusing PP of sloppiness or lying is suspicious to say the least.  You are allowed to be anti-choice but don't be dishonest about it.  Either that or please consider the organization you are talking about.  They are highly respected by everyone but the lunatic right.

            •  um... (15+ / 0-)

              I'm definitely pro-choice, but I also like my anecdotes to be somewhat verifiable.

              I think the letter would have much greater impact if it  included any facts that could be checked. As it is, I admit it raised questions in my mind, too.

              •  See my response elsewhere. (0+ / 0-)

                It's true, and it's not just an isolated problem.

              •  Eliot Spitzer has subpoenas out and is (0+ / 0-)

                investigating these crisis centers in NY.  Women have taken the steps to report it. And we all know how trustworthy the wingnuts are with personal information. They're like the mob --sometimes someone dies. Therefore, it is best to protect the privacy of women who are reporting these conditions. Oh, I keep forgetting --women have no right to privacy, do they? /snark

                Just because the MSM isn't reporting it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

                <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 09:20:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  paddykraska

                  Eliot Spitzer has subpoenas out and is
                  investigating these crisis centers in NY

                  This proves not to be the case. The only evidence you provide to back up this assertion is THREE YEARS OLD. Your use of the present tense is quite interesting, one could even hazard a guess that it could be intenntionally misleading, but that would be base conjecture bordering on ad hominem and we don't do THAT here, do we Bronte?

                  And we all know how trustworthy the wingnuts are with personal information.

                  No, please tell us,  is it anything like what certain people are like in transmitting intentionally misleading assertions?

                  DFooK

                  "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                  by deepfish on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 04:43:36 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, it raised questions in my mind too (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                deepfish

                Sounded like an urban legend.

                Hard to confirm since it is a detail about a private medical decision by a minor.

                As such, I trust that PP would not violate my trust. But it did trigger my 'bullshit' meter. And my 'bullshit' meter is pretty accurate most of the time.

                ...but not your own facts.

                by slouise217 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:45:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  your bullshit meter needs a tune up (0+ / 0-)

                  this sort of thing happens all the time.  Thanks for the troll rating, it's always so much more effective than talk when you have nothing to argue with.  

                  •  You are the one that had nothing to say (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    xynz, hopscotch1997, deepfish, Tonedevil

                    And simply made a personal attack that I troll rated. You were troll rated by 9 different people, 3 more than recommended you, yet you assert that the poster is abusing the system. This is not evidence of any abuse of any system. Any failings this poster had in the past are not a justification for your to make baseless accusations about his troll rating here. That is why I troll rated your post. And no, I do NOT have to comment EVERY time I make a troll post in order to justify my troll rating, nor do I have to comment every time I make a recommend either!

                    And NO, this kind of thing does NOT happen all the time. What THIS is is a story that is unable to be confirmed, yet we are supposed to take it as gospel. And that does not happen all the time.

                    And this kind of thing sure looks like an urban legend. It does not mention a timeframe, it does not mention a city, it does not indict a specific anti-abortion group, it does not tell us how it knows what attacks were made, upon whom, and how. This is exactly how most urban legends look. And that is what set off my bullshit meter - it does NOT need tuning.

                    But I said that until I see it proven otherwise, I will trust that Planned Parenthood did vet this story and did not violate my trust.

                    ...but not your own facts.

                    by slouise217 on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 05:22:58 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  It is NOT (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tonedevil, paddykraska, tvb, BobzCat, mhw

              Unreasonable to question a e-mail that looks like it was pulled from a website with no verification.  That says absolutely nothing about whether one supports or does not support abortion.  Calling people liars for posting a different view is not productive--hence the troll rating.

              We cannot do everything, and there is a sense of liberation in realizing that. This enables us to do something, and to do it well.

              by bjackrian on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:45:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Leftilicious already said was pro-choice (10+ / 0-)

              Teresa, you're reading way more into a cautious journalist than that person is saying.  I see nothing here to indicate leftilicious is anti-choice or against a woman's right to choose.  But if he/she is a good journalist (as opposed to what many writing news stories are today), then wanting to verify the facts is a positive instinct.  It's Saturday afternoon; let's see what leftilicious comes up with on Monday after a few calls.

              In the meantime, we should all contact our Congressional Reps on Monday to support the bill, and for those who can, send PP donations.  What's wrong with that as a positive response?

              -6.75, -5.79

              "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

              by edgery on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:47:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Fallacy: Appeal to Authority (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bjackrian, mhw

              Please read this and stop doing it.  

              •  I consider PP an authority and an honest one (4+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Rita in DC, theran, bronte17, hrh
                Hidden by:
                thomaswilliam

                I don't give a damn if you do or not.

              •  Loser: Use of the word fallacy (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hrh

                PP has a track record of being reliable.  This isn't intuitionist logic.

                If you think you're that far ahead, then get the chips in the middle of the table!

                by theran on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:13:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You can live your life on faith. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bjackrian, mhw

                  I like proof, indpendently written news articles, other accounts that coroborate, something I can hang my hat on.  I know I am so picky, not just accepting a single sourced account as fact.

                  •  Your formal argument makes no sense (0+ / 0-)

                    In your framework

                     ``George Bush says...''
                     ``The NYT says...''
                     ``Planned Parenthood says...''
                      ``Jeff Gannon says...''

                    are all the same kind of statement and get the same level of confidence, which is none.  The point here is that your framework clearly doesn't apply, since nobody has said anything like that.

                    If you think you're that far ahead, then get the chips in the middle of the table!

                    by theran on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:20:06 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are telling me that... (0+ / 1-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Hidden by:
                      mikenlola

                      I am not allowed to question an email from Planned Parenthood because they are a trustworthy organization.  That is a clasic appeal-to-authority, there is no other way to put it and just becuase you don't understand doesn't make it nonsensical.  This is a second hand account with no independent varification.  

                      •  Whatever (0+ / 0-)

                        I didn't say you can't question.  I said you misrepresented other people's arguments, which you keep doing.

                        Let me put a question to you: Why do you think the story is false?  Intuitionists and other kinds of idiot contrarians rarely have anything interesting to say, and you seem to be moving along those lines.

                        If you think you're that far ahead, then get the chips in the middle of the table!

                        by theran on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 03:00:16 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So you have switched... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          deepfish

                          from appeal to authority to ad hominem.  When did I say the story is false?  I said that the story is unsubstanciated, that means I can't verify it.  Notice I am not saying anybody is wrong or lying, I am saying I can find no verifiable proof that this happened.  My posts go to only one point, if you say that this is true because Planned Parenthood said it then you have rested your proof on an appeal to authority.  Appeal to authority is a clasic fallacy.  So when have I misreprsented other people's arguments?
                          By the by, I do understand the basic premise, that false "clinics" are being set up next to Planned Parenthood clinics drawing in the unsuspecting and then trying to push their morality to the point of harassment.  Not only do I understand I believe it, I don't even have a hard time believing the anecdote as described I just can't find any coroborating evidence that it did.

                          •  What was actually said (0+ / 0-)

                            I can't believe I have to cite it, but here you have it:

                            TPA: I think accusing PP of sloppiness or lying is suspicious to say the least.  You are allowed to be anti-choice but don't be dishonest about it.  Either that or please consider the organization you are talking about.  They are highly respected by everyone but the lunatic right.

                            You: Fallacy: Appeal to Authority

                            Really.  That's all you have to say.  Nothing about what you can and can't substantiate.  Just a useless contrarian point.  As I pointed out, the initial argument was made taking into account the uncertainty of the situation, the past history of PP, PP's access to information, and the incentive structure around sending out the story.

                            Your quasiformal analysis really doesn't apply, no matter how much you push it.  The only reason to put it out there is to suggest that PP is lying.

                            So what was your point again?  That logical reasoning under uncertainty should be monotone?

                            If you think you're that far ahead, then get the chips in the middle of the table!

                            by theran on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 01:07:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I will try to make this simple for you. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            deepfish

                            The very cite you come up with is a classic appeal to authority.  The only evidence that is available as to the incident is an email from Planned Parenthood.  In your citation the person who asks if anyone has more documentation is accused of not being pro-choice and told that the president of Planned Parenthood isn't going to make it up so it must be true.  That is not proof of the veracity of an argument that is a demonstration of faith in a person.  
                            What has really troubled me through all this is the horribly deficient logic and debate skills of so many DKos posters.  You, as an example, don’t even understand what I mean that appeal to authority is a classic fallacy.  Try this, Joe always tells the truth.  Joe says Fred stole gum from the store.  You can arrest Fred now, for shoplifting, with no other evidence.  And, while I'm on the subject look how you started out this exchange, by calling me a loser.  That for your information is ad hominem, calling the other party names to try to discredit their position.  I hope you can at least see that calling me a loser doesn't advance the debate or your point one bit.  
                            Believing someone is all well and good, but on this scale, the president of Planned Parenthood can't know and be known personally to everyone on the Planned Parenthood email list, and so anecdotes that are used to illustrate why a very worthy bill needs to be passed should be able to be easily independently verified.  It really doesn't seem like such an odious standard to me, but then I don't think that I win an argument by pointing out what a trustworthy organization Planned Parenthood is.

            •  troll raters on an abortion thread (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              theran, bronte17, hrh, tonyahky

              who'd a thunk it?  Names I never heard of before too... = )

            •  Teresa, one thing to think about --Spitzer (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              theran

              has subpoenas out.  These wingnut organizations are being threatened and they will fight back fiercely.

              My first response is to protect the privacy of the women reporting these issues.  

              <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

              by bronte17 on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 09:15:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No (0+ / 0-)

                Teresa, one thing to think about --Spitzer (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:theran
                has subpoenas out.  These wingnut organizations are being threatened and they will fight back fiercely.

                According to the only evidence YOU have provided, this proves to not be the case.

                He HAD subpoenas out, three freaking years ago.

                Happy to help.

                DFooK

                "Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight / That dance around your head"

                by deepfish on Mon Apr 24, 2006 at 04:48:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Well believe ME (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              slouise217, deepfish

              I've doen clinic escort duty. I have been fighting the pro-choice battle since I got my first job in 73 and compiled info on abortion from all PoV for the state office I worked for in D.C. (After I talked ot the Right O life types, I had to call PP or ZPG tog e the taste out of my mouth--one of them told me miscarriages were God's will and so no one should feel sad--pardon me while I throw up).

              But I searched high and low on the Net and could find nothing except the action  message from PP--nothing. And I am a librarian, and if it is there to be found, I can find it (which is how I usually make minced meat of prolifers).

              This may very well be true. The tactics are some I've heard of being used.  But unless we and PP cam find something other than Pp letter to verify it, we do suffer from a credibility problem. We need verification from a neutral source like a newspaper--otherwise there is a logical reasons to question the veracity.

              Thio isn't because PP is a tainted source in my eyes. It's because some of the people we need to convince would NEED a second source.  I had to teach this to young man when I taught college English comp classes. He was writing a paper on child-rearing and kept quoting the bible and DObson. I told him, that if he wanted to convince anyone other than his fellow Fundy-abagies and Focus Ont he Family types, he needed to find another doctor/shrink whoa greed with Dob=sona nd he needed to counteract the MANY studies that show hitting children encourages violence.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 09:00:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I checked the Planned Parenthood website (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Buckeye BattleCry, joanneleon

      and this story is posted.

      Fake abortion clinics story from PP site

      "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers." Voltaire

      by Esjaydee on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:20:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  We need to stick up for women and girls (5+ / 0-)

    I will protect and defend any woman or girl I know of who comes to me for help with the descision to get an abortion--up to and including running off any fundies who decide to harass her.

    I'm not afraid of fundies--let one of them jump me or pull out a gun--I can give back as much as they can dish out. They always go for the vulnerable target--never the person who will fight.

    I drove a woman from central KY to an abortion clinic in Michigan about a year ago, and gave her a ride home. I had a car stop in front of my house the night before--I think it was fundies from the local right to life group--they headed on down the road when I stepped out on porch with my shotgun.

    I know my attitude is a little aggressive for some people--but if we don't stick up for ourselves and especially, some of our sisters who find themselves in vulnerable positions, they will keep dishing out crap.

  •  Have these people been charged in (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joanneleon, tonyahky

    connection with the girl's death?  Can they be?

    "It's the Government, we're hear to help you."

    by Friend of the court on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 02:33:25 PM PDT

  •  I am pro-choice (0+ / 0-)

    but I support parental notification for underage girls.

  •  Bad Memories. (19+ / 0-)

    Many years ago, I had an abortion.
    It was an agonizing decision. I won't give any background as to what why I did it - it was a time in my life that is much to painful to write or talk about to this day.
    It makes me sad. More than sad. And there are times I still want to cry.  It hits me out of nowhere. Just out of nowhere.
    That day. The days leading up to it.
    Just like that. Almost brings me to my knees.
    But I don't regret it.  And I wouldn't change anything.  But that's not what I wanted to say.

    My brother moved to Indiana (Fort Wayne) from a the bluest of blue states.
    He met and married a born again Christian from that strange place which insists is part of America.  
    He became one. An evangelical born again.  She said she would not marry him unless he did.
    And if my brother fell in love with a Spaghetti Monster worshipping heathen, he would have become that too.
    He's like that.  Whatever the love of his life was, so became he.
    So he was a Jehovah's Witness, kind of like a Jew, kinda a Buddhist, and a Catholic and an Atheist. All in one year.
    But the born again thing grabbed him and turned him into a paper clip.
    My father (who says he's an Christian Orthodox but has no idea what that means other than to get his basket blessed at Easter) told my brother "you are NOT A JEW!!". Kinda screamed it a lot. Then every day after that cried that my brother should have married that Jewish girl.

    Anyway.  So my Mother goes and tells my brother what happened to me. Before the abortion.
    And then his wife starts calling me and begging me not to kill the child.
    And my brother begs me over and over - let us adopt the child god gave you.
    And I'm crying and confused and don't know what to do.
    And then church members started to call our house.
    Guess Jesus pays for long distance.
    And they signed me up on every anti abortion mailing list there ever was.
    And then his wife keeps up this mantra  (i refused, and to this day, refuse, to ever call her my sister-in-law) of how the MegaChurch Bible Study has special prayer groups devoted to me. So that I would not murder my "child".

    God. I still hate Indiana.

    Anyway, they're praying like mad.
    Mails still coming in. Don't do it!!!
    And then my doctor performed a safe, legal abortion in the hospital where she performed surgery. No clinic. A real hospital.
    So I don't have any stories about a ugly clinic, or how I was rushed in and out, or how protesters hurt me.
    It made it so much easier to bear.

    So I didn't talk to my brother for like two years.
    And other than that, he's the greatest brother in the world and I love him so much.
    But I hated him with a passion for two years.
    So I finally go out to Fort Wayne to visit him. And that thing. He called his wife.
    And she's call crying when she runs up to me.
    And I walk past her and won't look at her or let her touch me.
    I just walk up to their guest room - and she tries to follow me and I tell her to get away from me because I like acting like that.

    Anyway - this is why I hate Indiana, and the whole non point to this post -
    I met EVERY SINGLE person in the prayer group.
    My brother and his wife - they dragged me to their church because EVERYONE goes to church there.
    In some confused asinine moment of weakness, I agreed to go.
    Not thinking that they lunatics would assault me.
    So of course they do. Everyone knows me, and they all give me that bullshit pained look they like to give sinners,  and then they all tell me YET AGAIN how they prayed for me over and over and over.

    The first few times I didn't say much. Like maybe the first two times.
    But then every single born again maroon from that maroonish church in that maroonish state who tried to shake my hand and say "We were so praying for you...We wish we could have helped save a life....and you....".
    I took the most utter, sadistic, spiteful satisfaction in looking at them right in the face and saying:
    "Well - if that doesn't show you that God doesn't give a rats ass or listen to your prayers, what will? I mean come on. Proof?"
    The look of utter horror, the disgust, the fear on their faces when I said that - they ran away from me.
    Ran. Not walked.
    My brother's wife almost collapsed when the maroons ran to her and told her what I said.
    She was crying for days. I mean crying for real.
    In the bedroom. Would not come out.  I was like OH SHUT UP for the love of god.
    My brother didn't say anything.

    And you know the people I met there who did not know about "the terrible thing I did", the very first question out of every Hoosier's mouth was "So what church do you go to back home?"
    And when they said "back home", it was with that "look" again.
    Because they considered the Mid Atlantic East Coast worthy of being chopped off of American soil and set adrift into the ocean.
    And then I would take even more pleasure out of telling them I haven't set foot in a church since I was baptised and that led to more looks of horror and "well, what do you expect, she's from THERE".
    But that was a lie. I was a born again too at one time in my life and even taught Sunday School and wore T Shirts that Said ONE WAY! with an arrow pointing up and believed in the Rapture in the worst way but they did not know that.

    That's my memory of Indiana. I hate it.
    Nothing's changed in that state.
    It's a scary place with horrible laws and horrible things happening in it.
    My brother divorced that evangelical hash brown five years ago.
    Moved back to his blue state.
    Now he's like a combination of five religions but he's not insane.
    He's dating a Jewish woman.
    And they're engaged.
    And they all lived happily ever after.
    Kind of.

    Sorry - this was longer than I never meant it to be.
    Teresa's diary dredged up things I haven't thought about in so long.

  •  Is this in the news? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sockpuppet, joanneleon, greenearth, mhw

    Also is the family suing for harrassment? The e-mail really didn't divulge much information, such as where this clinic was located.  

  •  other tricks of crisis pregnancy centers. (3+ / 0-)

    Often, they only have over-the-counter pregnancy tests like you could get at the supermarket.  But another thing I've heard they do to prevent women getting abortions elsewhere is to lie about the result of the pregnancy test, hoping the woman won't find out she's pregnant until it's too late to have an abortion, or too expensive for her.

  •  wow have not been this mad in a while (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    raatz, tonyahky

    i just had a fantasy of walking into one and trashing the place. some people may resent it, but the term "angry left" is starting to apply more and more to me.

    we are the goon squad and we're coming to town ...

    by arb on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:04:38 PM PDT

  •  Rather unfortunate scenario (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BluejayRN

    Would be if a lone bomber sort didn't get the memo that such-and-such a 'crisis center' was in fact a ruse by his or her own compadres.

    I mean, that would just be plain tragic.

    Confidence is high. I repeat: Confidence is high.

    by cskendrick on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:16:23 PM PDT

  •  Planned Parenthood Press releases (0+ / 0-)

    http://www.plannedparenthood.org/...

    I don't see this story anywhere. Wouldn't and shouldn't it be on their site?

  •  This propaganda must stop (0+ / 0-)

    and the American taxpayer funding it absolutely must stop.

    Now more than ever Planned Parenthood needs our help.
    Right after South Dakota announced its plan to ban abortions in their state I looked up the web address of the PP serving their area and donated money. I can't give much, but feel that this issue is so very important right now. Their national website has other ways to 'take action' if you are unable to help financially.

    http://www.plannedparenthood.org

    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers." Voltaire

    by Esjaydee on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:26:33 PM PDT

  •  Do Ms. Richards' figures really fit her story? (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rabel, tritium, bjackrian, tvb, mhw

    I agree that this is bad, and should be criminalized.  I'd expect that you could start with civil suits for false advertising if someone is looking for a way to get this type of situation (false advertising of abortion services) into court.  For the Indiana girl (and others like her), there may also be able to file a complaint under HIPAA -- which prohibits the "sharing" of medical information.  Telling people that she is pregnant so they can talk her out of an abortion clearly violates HIPAA.  (This presumes that the "crisis pregnancy center" is a "health care provider" under the regs.)

    Ms. Richards' reporting, however, has not convinced me that this is an epic problem, or a common tactic.  I find it very hard to believe that all of the 2,300 to 3500 crisis pregnancy centers are run in this manner.  Perhaps in part because I would have expected to hear about it before now.

    Does she have proof for the idea that "this cruel and fraudulent behavior shows exactly what's behind the proliferation of these centers?"  If not, she should lose the claim, or at least reword it to emphasis exactly what she KNOWS versus what she fears or suspects.

    As a party, and as people who hope to influence policy, we need to not take our claims beyond our proof.  When we are wrong about some part of the claim, it then tends to discredit the entirety of the rest of our argument.  There is no reason to build weakness into your argument, for the benefit of your opponent.  For example, if I could prove that the majority of these crisis pregnancy centers had never engaged in such tactics, and that the observed strict rules about patient confidentiality, then it would likely discredit the entire story.  Disproving the one weak claim would pull attention away from the broader picture of crisis pregnancy centers luring people in with false claims of being able to obtain an abortion there.  (Do they call it "abortion counseling”?  This may be how then can claim that it is not false advertising.)

    If you do know of more proof to shore up these claims, then please provide it.  But Ms. Richards should not assume that simply because she is sending an email to pro-choice advocates for the purposes of fund raising that she can get away with shoddy reporting and presentation of her arguments.  If she wants my money, she still needs my trust.  She should edit to clarify which parts are proven and which parts are suspicion.

    I agree that this type of bait and switch is despicable, and that it should not be happening any where.  But I strongly disagree with this type of presentation of argument.  

    •  You tell her that (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sally in SF, Rita in DC, hrh, sockpuppet

      I used to work in the field and I have seen much worse.  I do not appreciate you calling PP liars.

      •  Liars? (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bjackrian, Tonedevil, paddykraska, hatdog, mhw

        Teresa, I am not calling Planned Parenthood liars.  I am, however, critiquing how they present their arguments.  

        They jump from a specific and horrific example, slipping easily into claims that this type of intimidation is standard operating procedure for these crisis pregnancy centers.  This "slip" weakens an important argument that they are making -- that SOME "crisis pregnancy clinics" are luring patients in by deceptively claiming to be abortion providers.

        It is ironic that they would do this in an email designed to drum up support for a bill designed to make deceptive advertising illegal -- for crisis pregnancy clinics anyway.

        I want Planned Parenthood and other progressive organizations to actively maintain a reputation for honesty.  I want truth in discourse -- from all sides.  No more "Blue Skies Initiatives" that weaken pollution controls, no more exaggerations.

        Why the angry response to my critique?

        •  it is standard operating procedure (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theran, tonyahky

          for this types of operations.  Intimidation, manipulation, lying, even holding women against their will.  Why do you think they are in operation?  It is not because they actually care about helping women in crisis.  They simply think that saving the fetus is God's work and they feel justified in doing it anyway they can.  

          •  As I stated above (0+ / 0-)

            I actually personally know some people who are involved with one of those clinics--while they do provide some services to young mothers--like help with diapers and formula--their main goal is to get pregnant young girls to give up their babies for adoption. I know for a fact that at least one of the women in that organization is a pushy, busy body old bitch who used to intimidate the hell out of my ex-brother-in-law, and thought she would get smart with me till I told her off.

            I have known of her to take girls to her house, try to get them into her church, and try to insinuate herself into their lives. I don't know if she is specifically responsible for harassing anyone--if she was, she sure as hell would not want me to find out about it, because of who I am connected to in KY.

            I have experienced second-hand harassment by some of the right-to-lifers in KY--I was taking a girl to an abortion clinic in another state as a favor to her mother, who was too ill to drive that distance--they had the nerve to park in front of my house like they thought they were going to scare me or something (see post above) and found out where the girl was from her abusive ex-boyfriend. They were willing to drive halfway across the state in order to park in front of my house--the car had Hart County plates, though I think one of the people in the car is someone i have seen around here quite a bit--makes me suspect the pro-life groups may have themselves a little network going that may extend to these activities.

            So I know, from personal experience, what kind of people get involved with those places. I also know that they will even stoop to helping a violent predator like this girl's ex in order to get at a woman they want to harass. We all need to take the threat of violence from these nutjobs very seriously--and be prepared to deal with it if it comes.

    •  Since PP and this 'clinic' share parking lot (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rita in DC, theran, sockpuppet

      I would tend to give the benefit of any doubt to PP.  I also suspect this isn't the only run-in the two competing services have had.

      -6.75, -5.79

      "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

      by edgery on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 03:50:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  One example does not prove a general trend though (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bjackrian, Tonedevil, mhw

        The email provides one example of tactics used in an Indiana clinic.  My point is that this is one example of a woman in Indiana who was outed by the clinic to her school mates, who was harassed at home, at school, and at her father's job, and who was subject to significant public pressure while seeking counseling in a private capacity.  Ms. Richards takes this one story, and uses it for the claim that "This cruel and fraudulent behavior shows exactly what's behind the proliferation of these  [2300-3500] centers."  

        Her story does not fit her claim -- she has shown the activities around one woman.  She has not shown that this level of intimidation is common.

        My mother worked for Catholic Social Services as a pregnancy counselor in the later '80s and early '90s.  The official line for her center was to help the women with whatever they felt comfortable with -- including abortion.  (Since the "center" was run mainly by two feminist women that I know well, I believe them when they explain how they adhered to this policy.  (As an aside, my Dad attempted to get money out of a local pro-life movement to help a couple of the women who were choosing to have the babies.  He was told No, because "this is not our focus right now!"  It would take more than one example to convince me that these public intimidation tactics are common in all 3500 of the nationwide crisis centers.

        If she is exaggerating, then she is building a weakness into her argument.  Why do that?

        Here's the NYT article she relies on for the 3500 figure:
        http://www.nytimes.com/...

        It does not support her claim that the Indiana intimidation model is being used elsewhere, although it does give several examples of deceptive luring followed by extreme pressure being used to "deter" abortion.

         

      •  I am an escort. (8+ / 0-)

        I volunteer large chunks of my weekends so that I can protect, guide and offer some small measure of comfort to the women who attend the PP clinic that's mentioned.  Every weekend I get to see the absolutely abhorrent things that the people next door try to do.  I don't have the time or the stomach to mention them, but yes-- you're right.

        •  To Kaj (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Margot, hrh, edgery

          Thank you for all that you do!

        •  You should document them (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          edgery

          I understand that adding paperwork on top of the volunteer time is a big pita, but you really should document whatever incidents you can.  PP should have questionnaires for staff, volunteers, and patients to fill out describing all events.

          You and your fellow volunteers should keep a running diary with incidents, dates, times, any supporting details, and any witnesses.  These diaries would have many uses -- evidence in subsequent lawsuits, data for a study, or evidence for legislation to name a few possibilities.  If you feel that it is appropriate, liberally use a camera as well.  (No pun intended.)

          If you are willing to risk additional loss of privacy, post across the web, find a friendly reporter, do whatever it takes to get the word out.  If not, just quietly collect facts and dates and as much proof as possible, and find some other way to use the information.  

          Good luck to you Kaj, and thanks to you and the others like you who work to create a safe space for women.

  •  Actually...It is time for a major law suit (6+ / 0-)

    I work in both the medical and legal field.  This is a serious breach of confidentiality.  If they are getting tax dollars from the Federal government they should be actually operating as a real clinic. They should have to abide by the same HIPAA regulations as any other health care provider.

    If they are using the tactics that are described, it is time to hire a really good attorney.  

    This makes me ill.  Harrassment, and defamation charges are warranted.  

    •  Don't they need to have an actual nurse (0+ / 0-)

      (at least an RN?) on the premises before they can administer any kind of medical test--including pregnancy tests?

      They might argue that a pregnancy test is over the counter--but in real clinics, only a nurse can dispense meds--not even a nursing assistant is legally allowed.

  •  Excuse me for channeling MSOC, (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Margot, killjoy, theran, begone, tonyahky

    But if these cocksmokers want war, then let's fucking give them war!  Let's take pictures of them coming out of their "clinics" and post them around town saying "Wanted: For Stalking Teenage Girls".  Let's let their employers (outside of the harassment clinics) know what they're doing.  Let's call every local radio and TV station and let them know there's a juicy story going on here.  Put them on the web.  Hell, let's raise money for billboards for fuck's sake and put a big shiny photo of their terror houses on them with the words "WARNING: Misogynistic Sociopaths Inside"!

    Let's make sure every one in a given geographical area knows what they are and what they're doing...so no one else makes the mistake of ever walking in there again.

    I know I'm not being terribly enlightened, but these kinds of stories make me want to shout "Up against the walls, motherfuckers!"

    Taliesin Athor Govannon HP, Coven of Caer Arianrhod Taliesin's Witchcraft Page

    by HippyWitch on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:18:41 PM PDT

  •  Serious doubts about the veracity of this story.. (4+ / 0-)

    This story can be false without Planned Parenthood  realizing it.

    Granted that PP is not the kind of organization that engages in urban legend propaganda, it is a very large organization that is prone to the problems of all large organizations.  It is possible that this is a falsehood perpetuated by an over-zealous and incompetent PP worker. Even worse, this could be a falsehood that has somehow been introduced into the PP knowledge base by an abortion opponent; inserted so they can later reveal it as 'proof' PP's 'dishonesty'.

    I don't think that is unreasonable to be suspicious of this report until it can be independently verified.  The truth is our most powerful weapon against the Religious Wrong; it is what differentiates us from them.  If this story is false, then using it would eventually cause serious damage to PP's credibility.

    -5.75 -4.72 3.14159 2.71828

    by xynz on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:37:00 PM PDT

  •  Wasn't there an episode of Law an Order recently? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BluejayRN

    Awareness of this issue is coming to light, but all too slowly. Fortunately, some of the ripped-from-the-headlines shows have value. I personally would be happy to do the time for beating the crap out of the operators of said 'clinic'.

    Need help with employment in the DC/NoVA area. Asst. Project Mgr. would be closest title. BSEET, Navy, office background. Clearance lapsed. -2.38, -4.82

    by carneasadaburrito on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 04:45:18 PM PDT

    •  Oh, and my letter on the Action page (0+ / 0-)

      As my daughter gets older, I have to teach her about being careful and how people can take advantage of her. How do I tell her that her country supports Fake Clinics? How do I tell her that a hospital is required to keep her alive, but not these clinics? Please lets me know how I pass this information on to my daughter, without being ashamed of myself as an adult for not protecting her better?

      Sincerely,

      Need help with employment in the DC/NoVA area. Asst. Project Mgr. would be closest title. BSEET, Navy, office background. Clearance lapsed. -2.38, -4.82

      by carneasadaburrito on Sat Apr 22, 2006 at 05:12:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Eyes on the prize: Again, THE ACTION ITEM (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BluejayRN

    A new bill in Congress, the "Stop Deceptive Advertising for Women's Services Act" (H.R.5052), would stop "crisis pregnancy centers" from deceiving women. Urge your representative to support this important bill.

    Visit this page and have PP contact your representative.

  •  Rethug tobacco whores representing Indiana (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    paddykraska, DemocraticLuntz

    Most Indiana Rethugs are "pro-life" only when it's convenient for them.  In the world of an Indiana Rethug, abortion is a crime against humanity but getting kids addicted to cancer sticks is just business as usual.

    Check out this:
    http://tobaccofreeaction.org/...

    Senator Bayh and the two Indiana Democrats in Congress have received ZERO contributions from the tobacco industry.  7 of the 8 Rethugs have received campaign contributions from TOBACCO companies.  Congressmen Buyer and Pence, both Rethug, are ESPECIALLY addicted to tobacco money.

    It's time to write letters to the editor blasting away at the tobacco whores.  I've already sent in such letters blasting Senator Orrin Hatch to Utah newspapers.  Check out my diary at:
    http://www.dailykos.com/...

  •  Until people stop being afraid of the religious (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BluejayRN

    fascists and shove the bible and Jesus up their ass.

    Who are we to believe the demagogues of religion and politics who use and abuse God or God?

    Don’t take my word for it, read Numbers 5: 12-29 you will find that a man who suspects his wife of adultery should take her to a priest who will administer a potion and question her. If she tells the truth she shall conceive, if she lies she will abort. So at least in this instance God is in favor of abortion unlike the Catholic Church, Southern Baptists etal. who know better then God.
    God not only sanctioned abortion but  commanded it.

    If you ever decide that the only way to overcome the religious wrong is to reeducate them as to what is actually in their Bible, please feel free to visit www.religionquestioned .com

  •  dispicable (0+ / 0-)

    it's just dispicable

  •  The Four Words to say to the Anti-Choicers... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Slartibartfast

    When you encounter a pro-lifer/anti-choicer, there is a little four word phrase you must say to them. I was a pro-lifer for many years (until I really thought about the consequences of banning abortion), and if someone had said this to me, I would have had no response:

    SHUT UP AND ADOPT!

  •  Enough already (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    paddykraska

    the Indiana basing is ridiculous.  One of our two Senators is a Democrat, we have a good chance of picking up three seats in the House, and we had 16 years of Democratic Governors before Daniels.  

    We have a very active pro-choice movement, and were successful this past year fighting back and keeping several terrible laws from being passed.  HAPA, the Indiana Health Access and Privacy Alliance, works with Planned Parenthood and many local organizations.  So stop trashing everybody that doesn't live in your neighborhood- it just makes you look stupid.

    But on to the issue at hand.  The Crisis Pregnancy Centers are terrible.  What they did above, if the information was collected as a health care provider, is a clear violation of HIPAA, and should be reported.  

    They actually do something far worse, and that is false imprisonment. They lock people in, refusing to let them go until they "pray together."  If you really want to shut them down, without giving them notice, all on the same day, everywhere, send somebody in with a wire, and see how many are illegally detained.  That afternoon, file a criminal complaint against every clinic (it needs to be a concerted effort, before word can get out).  Even if the local constabulary is anti-abortion, they will have a hard time refusing to investigate this type of charge.  If nothing else, the stress on the bad guys, and legal costs incurred (sure, they have pro bono lawyers, but few are criminal lawyers- believe me, I know some of them) will make a difference.

    Of course, that would require some organization and effort.

    Feel free to go back to proclaiming how much better you are than everybody else.  I'm sure it will be wonderfully productive.

  •  Coming from Minnesota (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theran

    to Indiana for college has been quite the culture shock. That's all I really can say for Indiana.

    I'm a road cyclist, ride a ton. Never had any trouble in Minnesota, lots of trails, lots of respectful drivers. Get to Indiana-"Nice shorts fag" or "Get a car and get off our roads." Little upsetting. I appear to have solved this problem by purchasing the most jingoistic flag emblazoned cycling jersey I could find.

  •  It's all about controlling women (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tonyahky, carneystaff

    The filthy whores!  /snark

    This should be clear as daylight to Americans by now.  Anti-abortion advocates do not care about fetuses or zygotes; they are interested in nothing less than returning women to their place as the property of men, to be used as walking baby factories for the sole purpose of pumping men's egos by submitting to as many pregnancies as possible.  This is about men (and women) who believe that a woman's duty is to live her life "barefoot and pregnant," serving her man's needs as a slave.

    American men are just too insecure about their manhood.  The giant SUVs, the accentuated secondary sexual characteristics in fashion, and vast numbers of unintelligent, submissive women starring on TeeVee are all indicators of a disease in our society.  Men no longer feel adequate and so they act like victims who must assert their "rights."  Even on NPR, I've recently heard men calling in to proclaim that abortion is a "mens rights issue" and that a man should have the right to force a woman to carry "his baby" to term.  

    Why are men such pussies these days?  If something doesn't change soon, I fear not only for the rights of women, but for even more wars, even more domination of the environment, ever more bullshit machismo actions.

    It just feels like our culture is decaying all around us.  Until recently, it seemed as if American and western societies were inexorably marching towards greater freedom, greater equality, and greater social justice.  Then suddenly everyone freaked out and now a whiny majority of Americans want a return to Medieval ages.  What the hell happened?

    -7.4, -5.9 | "Ignorance and bigotry, like other insanities, are incapable of self-government." -Thomas Jefferson

    by Subterranean on Sun Apr 23, 2006 at 02:32:51 AM PDT

    •  I don't know what happened (0+ / 0-)

      but I know the solution is not talking to people about why they should understand our point of view.  Solving the problem is going to be refusing to vote for candidates of either party who think women are not capable of making their own moral choices about whether or not to be pregnant.  
      I had a very smart therapist tell me once that even a child understands what you are saying the first time you tell them something (as long as you are using vocabulary they understand).  So tell them one more time just to be clear and then assume they are simply ignoring you.  
      We don't need to explain why choice is the right position.  We simply need to refuse to  put people in office who want to limit women's right to control her own body and life.  If pro-choice women of both parties would do that the issue would never come up for a vote again for a long long time.  

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