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Thumbing through the usual right-wing media sources as they desperately vow that this, too, is absolutely no big deal and in fact entirely reasonable, I was struck by just how assured they were that massive data mining of the telephone calls of all American citizens was a perfectly normal thing to expect, just like government demands to turn over large numbers of Google searches, or government notions that if an American was accused of consorting with terrorists, the Constitutional protections of representation and evidence no longer applied.

We seem to have had four distinct periods to this domestic espionage story:

1)  We first were told the U.S. government was spying on al Qaeda. Well, duh. I would hope so. (As far as I'm concerned, the NSA should break into every al Qaeda call with little farting sounds, just to see if we can get them into slapfights with each other. I'd like to hear fake-Osama singing the Monty Python "Spam" song.) This, everyone agreed, was no big deal. Nobody gives two bits: it requires a FISA warrant, and those warrants can even be granted after the fact, and those warrants are in fact always granted, and there is no controversy about it. It is not only necessary for the war on actual terrorists, but is a microscopically limited program.

2)  But we then learned that it wasn't al Qaeda, it was "international communications" in general: telephone conversations that began and ended at two foreign points. Using data mining, not just the calls of the suspected terror-connected were being intercepted, but the calls between individuals with no known connections with terrorism, in an effort to look for patterns and words ostensibly indicative of terrorism.  And, we were assured, this was no big deal, because FISA law is too cumbersome to be followed when you are talking about intercepting tens of thousands of calls on a giant, worldwide fishing expedition, and after all, the president assured us, they were not spying on Americans, only foreigners. And Constitutional rights do not apply to those foreign types, although some people questioned whether or not such a buckshot approach was causing so many false positives as to be hindering law enforcement efforts. But, after all, this is necessary for the war against supporters of known terrorists, and it is a very limited program. Don't presume this to be a big deal.

3)  Then we learned that it wasn't exactly just all phone calls between international sources, but calls beginning or ending in the United States, too. Though in direct conflict to previous assertions, this, we were told, was also just fine; we were told that the only people who had anything to fear were the terrorists. We wouldn't dare conduct searches of the records of U.S. citizens that had nothing to do with terrorism: only the guilty were being spied on. It is necessary for the war on people who might be acquainted with the supporters of possible terrorists, and it is a limited and quite sensitively conducted program. Don't be paranoid, the rest of you aren't being affected.

4)  Then we learned that it isn't about foreign vs. international calls at all. It's all calls. Your calls, my calls, the calls of politicians, of reporters, of government officials, by the tens of millions. Purely between Americans. They're all stored by a government agency in an ostensible attempt to "data mine" that information for, it is said again, potential ties between you and the terrorists.  But don't worry, the president tells us, the government would never misuse the data files they've collected on tens of millions of Americans. Don't be silly.


This frog seems fairly well boiled, at this point, doesn't it?

So here's a question for the community. And am I right in assuming that, if we looked, we could find administration officials and right-wing pundits vowing up and down at each stage that the next stage was a complete impossibility, a mere fabrication of paranoid minds?

And what will be the next revelation that we're told, by the _exact same government sources and partisan hacks that assured us none of what we now know to be happening was happening?  That the White House or other government agencies, say, have been sporadically requesting call data for specific individuals? Say, Christianne Amanpour?

Richard Clarke?

Dana Priest?

Of course not. Don't be silly. This is a very limited program.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:26 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  We need to link this to the Net Neutrality assaul (24+ / 0-)

    I think we can link this to the Assault on net neutrality.  They go hand in hand.  In one the telcos give over call records, in the other we give them the keys to the internet.  Holy police state batman.

  •  As limited as (5+ / 0-)

    this administration's boundless respect for the Constitution and the rule of law.

    All of life is an unanswered question, but let's still believe in the dignity and importance of the questions. - Tennessee Williams

    by Leslie in CA on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:24:31 PM PDT

    •  I would love for someone to go Freepmining this (5+ / 0-)

      topic. Minions, do my bidding. Report back with some quotes that will make me laugh and weep.

    •  There is no constitution (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bato, roastedcoyote, Clem Yeobright, eru

      anymore.

      I love watching you work, but I've got my country's 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Guilder to frame for it; I'm swamped

      by Cartoon Peril on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:31:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You mean the Spirit of the Constitution is on (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Clem Yeobright, eru, Gorette, RantNRaven

        life support. Because there is no more denying of the real direction this administration is taking.
        Based on common ignorance, built on religious stupidity and paranoia, supported by lies, deceit, partisanship and corruption, the reality of the Big Brother Bush administration is upon all of us. And of course, the government will not misuse the data collected - it will use it extremely well to control and continue its grip on power.
        No more just a pessimistic perspective/unproven conspiracy theory, this is merely the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully, the Titanic Bush is helping sink is the Republican party and not the whole American Republic.

        You know you're right because god thinks like you and you want the rest of the people to emulate god too.

        by Ayanora on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:56:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Limited to tens of millions of Americans (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matilda, Heart of the Rockies, eru

      The next stage will be -- what??

      Monitoring of hundreds of millions? All credit card transactions? Health records?

      They must assume we're all terrorists. Does this mean they have declared war on America???

      Or just the constitution?

      •  The next stage (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bablhous, RantNRaven

        Now that they have all the intimate details of our calls imagine this. The Doctor calls and tells you have been infected with HIV, the Theocrats know that only Gays get Aids, and being gay is unAmerican, they knock on your door and put you, your family and anyone on your NSA call list in one of the Camps the KBR has been building. Sounds kinda tin hattery don't it, but then if anyone had told me about the NSA doing Domestic Spying 10 yrs ago, I would have accused them of tinhattery also.

        -8.63 -7.28 SHUT IT DOWN NOW

        by OneCrankyDom on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:49:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's right. We're all terrorists now... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        who threw da cat, eru

        and if you're not an enemy of the state now, when you are, they will have all your personal info and points of contact. Your associates will be just as "guilty" as you are. Get ready for the show trials.

      •  Well, once Qwest is worn down... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bablhous, eru

        that will get it to the hundreds of millions.

        Credit card transactions?  Probably next.  After all, these terrorists (etc) have to be funded from somewhere.  But don't worry, we only look at terrorist transactions...er, those that fund terrorists...er, those whose financial transactions originate or end up outside the U.S....er, well, just have all the records to datamine; but, trust us, this is only to look for terrorists.

        Health records?  Unlikely...the medical industry is only starting to get that information put into electronic format in a serious way.

        Internet traffic?  Yep.  Internet backbone is...anybody?...Bueller?  Bueller?...the telcos.  They probably have that information stored too (wait for the release in a few weeks).

        E-mail?  Probably.  It's a lot more data than simple point-to-point IP addresses and telephone numbers...but you can sniff for certain words/phrases and copy those e-mails more selectively.

        In regards to your last 2 questions:

        Aren't all liberals actually terrorists at some level?

        Constitution?  Well, it looks nice hanging in the office, but you don't really expect them to read that thing do you?

        "Everyone wishes to have truth on his side, but not everyone wishes to be on the side of truth" - Richard Whately

        by unbound on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:57:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The next stage is here (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Pasadena

        Yes, health records, credit card transaction, the actual phone calls (internals) and, it is reasonable to assume they are already doing this without warrants.

        We are told that this is no big deal as they are only storing and data mining the phone numbers (externals) to develop calling patterns and they are not listening to the calls themselves.

        This is asking us to believe that they have spent billions of our children's tax dollars, to build a a huge database that will not lead to any actions. I call bullshit.

        They intend to take actions, such as listening to actual phone calls,  based upon the patterns that they identify as high threat patterns.

        Please note that the NSA will identify the patterns without oversight.

        I think we can also reasonably assume that they will take these actions without seeking warrants and are already doing so for two reasons.

        First, what would you base a request for a warrant on, information from a warrantless secret monitoring program? The fact, that this is a warrantless secret monitoring program, means that all downstream actions are also warrantless and secret.

        Second, paranoia is its own reward. Remember this administration, the DoJ, NSA, etc. believe that the bar for monitoring should be reasonable suspicion, not probable cause.

        The big difference between reasonable suspicion and probable cause is that probable cause requires facts. Suspicion on the other hand, requires a lack of facts.

        Reasonable suspicion is an oxymoron.

        Suspicious people never understand that.

        Indeed, for the suspicious, the lack of facts confirms that the suspected is far more devious and dangerous than previously thought. This in turn, is a call for bolder actions, more monitoring, more intrusion and they have just the program for that.

        You won't mind, will you? Unless, of course you have something to hide.

        So what kind of patterns will the NSA identify.

        Obviously, anybody called by a known or suspected terrorists or, any one called by someone who was called by a terrorist, or someone who was called by someone who was called by a terrorist, or someone who called someone who, well you get the idea.

        Using this line of suspicion, you could quickly turn Mohamed Atta ordering pizza into the need to listen to all the phone conversations in Boston.

        How about people opposed to the president's actions. As we know president bush only wants what is best for the country, he said so himself and, presidents never lie, he said that as well. Thus people who are opposed to the presidents action are opposed to what is best for the country and therefore are with the terrorists, all 68% of us.

        Anyone calling Congressman Conyers, called by Congressman Conyers, etc.

        The determination of the calling patterns that will qualify for further monitoring, perhaps a black bag job, are up to the NSA, without oversight.

        Of course, no republican president would ever keep an enemies list and spy on them.

        Another item of interest in this whole mess is that it is an extremely large database. You don't run databases this large without the participation of database companies and developers. What database system do you think they are using? IMS? Teradata?

        An empty limosine pulled up and george w. bush got out.

        by beerm on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:35:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Pizza? (0+ / 0-)

          Did Mohamed Atta really order pizza over the phone?

          [OK... let's add PIZZA to the list of search words used by known terroists.......]

          Thanks for the information.

        •  Which database? (0+ / 0-)

          VERY GOOD QUESTION.  I suspect we could see somewhat of a spike in the profits for one of the companies due to large (secret) government contracts.  It is almost certainly either Oracle or DB2.  This would be a very large connected series of relational databases.

          Of course this IS AFTER ALL, government work.  So it is probably Access or MySQL.  In which case we really have nothing to fear.  The darn thing will crash with that much data.

          I feel better already.

      •  Senator Feinstein said today in committee, (0+ / 0-)

        it was hundreds of millions. I was shocked, but I think I heard her right.
        I don't think it's just tens of millions.

      •  Credit cards and health records (0+ / 0-)

        Of course monitoring these is "next".  I suspect it is already going on.  Why not? Once you give up on the constitution it becomes easy.  In the name of FREEDOM!  

        What baloney.

    •  don't we all get it? (0+ / 0-)

      The 'administration's boundless respect for the Constitution and the rule of law' is reserved for people who earn more than $200K/yr?

      Well, with some exceptions: Hollywood actors, musicians, artists, authors.

      When are we going to understand that?

      "Rovus Vulgaris Americanus" nasty, freshly-demoted, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

      by shpilk on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:39:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  cross posting a comment... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StuartZ, Hegman, Wary, Friend of the court

    This is from another diary, but it got lost in the shuffle and basically says what I think needs to be said about this.....If I am wrong in my analysis, some comments please.

    (I was eating at a local place that happened to be showing Faux Noose and the 3 stooges and Brit Hume were on.)  Mort Kondrakee (sp) actually said something intelligent, which was then trumped by the idiocy of Fred Barnes.  Basically, the purpose of the program is to see what numbers are being called, thus compiling a database.  According to them, they are not actually 'listening' to our calls, just compiling data of who is calling whom....the purpose was to establish a network of alleged terror cells.  It makes sense and realistically might help.  HOWEVER.....in order to do it properly, then that means that every American's phone records would need to be disclosed and sifted through......um, basically what the Admin is currently denying they are doing.  So:

    either they are lying to us again....no surprise there, and they are actually doing something that MAY help protect us in the long run, if done properly, even though it violates the 4th amendment in that it is obtaining records from the telecom companies without subscriber permission or warrant.
    or.

    They are only viewing a small amount of phone records (10 million is still small compared to the US population) and are doing a half-assed job 'protecting' us.....basically showing that the program is ineffective.
    Makes you wonder.  If they got the warrants in the first place to get all phone records and then compiled a database, it would potentially intrude on our privacy, but it could possibly help.  "most Americans" would probably approve....but instead, they lied about the scope of the program and are fucking it up anyway.....gotta love these guys

    Proud to be a Red County, Texas Democrat!

    by Webslinger on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:25:22 PM PDT

  •  Bingo.... (11+ / 0-)

    As usual, spot on Hunter...

    BTW -  I can't get this picture out of my head of...

    Scott McClellan - Laughing....

    Tony Snow - Crying....

    Welcome to the Big Time Mr. Snow!!!!

    First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you...then you win -- Mahatma Gandhi

    by justmy2 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:25:44 PM PDT

  •  Maybe the tinfoilers are onto something... (12+ / 0-)

    the flouride in the water probably makes the reception in my fillings a little clearer for the Feds.

    Christ almighty, Im not ready for Big Brother.

  •  IOKIYAR (3+ / 0-)

    Clinton doing this, I doubt it would be no big deal...Do they want a future Democratic President to have this power?

    They freaking blew up OKC Federal Buildings due to Reno enforcing the law as it existed...and formed freaking militias...I'm guessing this is just more of IOKIYAR, which applies to any law breaking, any where, any time...

    TexasDemocrat
    Giggity giggity giggity...Iraq's a Quagmire

    by TexasDemocrat on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:26:41 PM PDT

    •  My worst fear (15+ / 0-)

      .Do they want a future Democratic President to have this power?

      My guess is they won't allow any future Democrat to enter the Oval Office.

      "Words are, of course, the most potent drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling.

      by Kimberly Stone on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:29:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are correct, we have probably (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bluewolverine

        seen the last Democratic president ever.

        I love watching you work, but I've got my country's 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Guilder to frame for it; I'm swamped

        by Cartoon Peril on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:32:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Welcome to single-party rule, comrades. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bluewolverine, IncuriousGeorge

          Mark my words -- they'll do whatever it takes to steal the 2006 election from the Dems.

          There's nothing wrong with this country wot a few good Visigoths can't cure. -- Me

          by Mehitabel9 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:54:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Scarboro Tonight (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joynow

            Yelling--It doesn't matter what party you are in this is HORRIBLE! This is NOT RIGHT AND BE VERY AFRAID!!

            This cuts across party lines

            he's having a fit tonight!

            I love it the neo cons tonight are turning on themselves and their president! One was yelling, "This is right we haven't had another terrorist attack under this president and this is why"--the other yelling back--how do you know it we haven't had another terrorist attack because of voo doo dolls--LOL!!!!

    •  Dems Introduced in House Today (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joynow, StuartZ, mjd in florida

      Yes, they did! And it is the very same Rep. Harmon who said that this NSA should not be a point in the confirmation of Hadley, and I thought that right it should be a stand alone bill of it's own--and here it is!

      Reps. Jane Harman (D-CA) and John Conyers (D-MI) today introduced the "Lawful Intelligence and Surveillance of Terrorists in an Emergency by NSA Act" (The LISTEN Act), RAW STORY has learned.

      The Act would require any attempt to listen in on Americans or collect telephone or e-mail records to be be conducted in accordance with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA), or Title III of the criminal code. In both cases, court warrants based on probable cause are required. The Act states that FISA is the exclusive way to conduct electronic surveillance of U.S. persons on U.S. soil for intelligence purposes.

      It also states that the 2002 Congressional Act authorizing the use of military force did NOT authorize spying out side of FISA. Rep. Conyers further says:

      "It is a sad day when the Congress of the United States must compel the President to abide by the Constitution," said Congressman Conyers, the Ranking Member on the House Committee on the Judiciary. "I regret that we have to legislate once again on an issue that was clearly settled by this Congress nearly 30 years ago in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act."

      http://www.rawstory.com/...

      •  New laws (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StuartZ, justmy2, Isara, Paper Cup

        What are the use of passing new laws when current law and the constitution already cover this.  The problem isn't a lack of laws, it is a lack of enforcement of our current laws.

      •  A two-edged sword (0+ / 0-)

        If this proposed legislation truly covers the same ground as does FISA (which is what Conyers and the article seem to be saying), it may actually harm the Dems' best position on the issue, since the Rethugs will say that Bush's spying must be lawful and not covered now by FISA, if the Dems are trying to pass legislation to have FISA cover it.  It also could make Harman appear to be doing something, when she was one of the few Dems in the world who knew about the eavesdropping, and kept Bush's secret(s).

      •  A law to enforce a law (0+ / 0-)

        How strange.  We need a law?  I suppose with signing statements you don't really have laws.  The Bush Kingdom decides what is law, sometimes retroactively.  How would passing another law help?

        We need to take back congress then shove this criminal behavior up their #@KW$#!

  •  You can't hide... your lyin' eyes. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joynow, Pasadena, Rick Oliver, sodalis

    The lead-in to Olberman had Bush's statements today about the NSA phone records.  Did anyone else notice Bush's eyes shifting to the left (his right)?  See what this website has to say about that:

       To the Left
       Indicates: Auditory Constructed (Ac)
       If you asked someone to "Try and create the highest the sound of the pitch possible in your head", this would be the direction their eyes moved in while thinking about the question as they "Auditorily Constructed" this this sound that they have never heard of[...]

       The Gist of it...

       How this information is used to detect lies:
       Example: Let's say your child ask's you for a cookie, and you ask them "well, what did your mother say?" As they reply "Mom said... yes." they look to the left. This would indicate a made up answer as their eyes are showing a "constructed image or sound. Looking to the right would indicated a "remembered" voice or image, and thus would be telling the truth. [emphasis added]

    ...reposted from a comment on jlove1982's diary on Olberman's show tonight.

  •  It can't be 'tens of millions' randomly selected. (14+ / 0-)

    Then they'd perhaps randomly select my Aunt Dian who has Pick's disease struggling to say a few words in dutiful calls from my cousin. Not much terrorism going on there.

    Nope.

    It's Muslims. Of course. We know that.

    Probably also people in any way tied to Muslims.

    That's a given.

    Who else?

    Democrats?
    Outspoken critics of the Bush Administration?
    Peace activists?

    Journalists?

    The Religious Left?
    Lawyers for all of the above?
    Strong progressive voices?
    Markos Moulitsas Zuniga?
    Me?
    You?

    "Words are, of course, the most potent drug used by mankind." Rudyard Kipling.

    by Kimberly Stone on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:27:18 PM PDT

  •  The next step (11+ / 0-)

    is don't be alarmed we are just searching houses to root out the terrorists.....as long as you aren't on a watch list you need not be concerned that a government agency is searching your belongings without a warrant. We all know how accurate those lists are too don't we? Exactly how many people have been detained (including very small children) simply because their name got put on a no fly list. If people don't see this as a slippery slope at this point I don't know what will wake them up.

    •  Hey! I'm not doing anything wrong! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2, cwaltz

      Why would I object to my house being searched if it protects me from terrr'rists? (As long as they stay away from my password-protected 'media' folder, not that there's anything in there I couldn't explain . . .)

      Frankly, I suffer from Jerry Falwell disease: I have trouble sleeping nights for fear that somewhere out there in America there is someone enjoying him/herself . . .

      When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail Baez

      by Clem Yeobright on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:37:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Next step? Been there, doing that. (0+ / 0-)

      They already can search anyones home whenever they want without notifying anybody thanks to patriot act and lack of FISA oversight.

      GWB has done more to harm America's freedoms and liberties than a million Osama Bin Laden's ever could.

      by IncuriousGeorge on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:02:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The subtext.... (9+ / 0-)

    "Trust us, we know what we are doing."

    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Seneca

    by Ralfast on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:27:26 PM PDT

  •  And the corporations will defend it all the way (9+ / 0-)

    to the end. They pay their employees next to nothing so they have to walk in lock-step in fear of their jobs. Brownshirts all around. They scare the "little people" who work for them because, damn if they don't need that damn job to survive. I am now so pissed I want to have the government try and get me. I will be making some very interesting international calls.

    "How far up your ass do these guys dicks need to be before you realize they're fucking you?"- Bill Hicks -7.88, -7.13

    by bebacker on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:27:47 PM PDT

  •  They're looking at credit card info too (11+ / 0-)

    They have to be.  The database becomes all the more powerful if they have credit card purchas information along with phone records.  Scary stuff.  At some point they probably plan on making it available to police departments and prosecutors around the country to aid their investigations into non-terrorist crimes.  Only someone who was against protecting the childredn would have a problem with that.

    A pessimist sees a glass half empty. I see a paper cup with holes punched in it.

    by Paper Cup on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:27:53 PM PDT

  •  The Day's of McCarthyism are upon us! (6+ / 0-)

    The next step is quite simple, the House Un-American Activities Committee will be reinstated and people will be hauled before it for things they have "said", things they have "read", and things that others "claim" they have said or read.

    Hollywood actors are of course top of the list yet again, Clooney, Penn, et al. Then I suspect anyone from the ACLU, the NAACP, and so on and so forth.

  •  data mining (7+ / 0-)

    Well, we're going to be living in the technology of the "Minority Report" if we don't demand the United States enforce and put into place major privacy laws.

    While it's Bush this time, next time it could easily be Citibank, analyzing your every move and running an AI program to determine just how of an interest rate you'll take before you jump off the Brooklyn Bridge in frustration.

    http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

    by BobOak on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:28:13 PM PDT

  •  It's the warrants, stupid! (20+ / 0-)
    That should be the meme that gets traction. Without warrants, there's no accountability, no paper trail, no explication.

    So here we are - the last Americans, whether we're called "liberals," or "Democrats," or "progressives" - we're the last stand. Are we throwing Malatov cocktails at the cops? Are we hurling bricks through windows? No.

    We're asking for the rule of law, for the protection of warrants. And this, according to the ruling junta, is far too much to ask.

    Hunter, I think this may be the tipping point. I've called that before and been wrong, but having Bush come out within hours of the leak makes this one look like it's the big enchilada.

    Every day's another chance to stick it to The Man. - dls.

    by The Raven on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:28:54 PM PDT

  •  When you figure 30% of the peeps are insane (4+ / 0-)

    it makes perfect sense that they'd think this was reasonable. You can't fix stupid!

    "Rapturists. Suicide bombers. What's the diff?" Plato

    by steelman on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:29:14 PM PDT

    •  70% Are sane (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Heart of the Rockies, maggiemae

      I'm bettin on all of us!

    •  Not to make light of it (0+ / 0-)

      but don't count the people with  paranoid schizophrenia or Paranoid Personality Disorder in that 30%.

      I worked for several years with people with chronic  mental illness who wanted to get back into the work force. Many were very bright and had professional positions, just needed support to get back into the groove of work. They generally came to really trust me so would call or meet with me to check and see if something was a delusion or might be real. Can't tell you how many were about secret government plots.

      I've thought of these people as bush's policies have been revealed. They all kept up with the news (and take it further in their minds)...and I'm betting they are very, very nervous.

  •  If you can't trust the preznit . . . (0+ / 0-)

    I can't finish that sentence because it's so very very scary and so very very true . . .

    Shut it down?

    When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail Baez

    by Clem Yeobright on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:29:28 PM PDT

  •  Physical searches of residences without (8+ / 0-)

    warrant are next, followed by "preventative detention" (or whatever Rovistic euphemism the concentration lager will be known by) for troublesome types, like Kos.  Christopher Hibbert will of course remain untouched.

    I love watching you work, but I've got my country's 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Guilder to frame for it; I'm swamped

    by Cartoon Peril on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:30:37 PM PDT

  •  I wonder (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    janinsanfran

    of this administration handed over piles of this data they've mined to giant corporations, would that be considered "misuse" of the information? Not that I'm paranoid about it.

  •  Limited - yeah to tens of millions of Americans.. (0+ / 0-)

    ...who just happen to have voted the wrong way last election.  They got your fingerprints off the Diebold screens, guys.

    Just wait.

    It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. -- William G. McAdoo (-5.88/-5.23)

    by Shadan7 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:30:57 PM PDT

  •  if their lips are moving... (6+ / 0-)

    Hunter,

    "And am I right in assuming that, if we looked, we could find administration officials and right-wing pundits vowing up and down at each stage that the next stage was a complete impossibility, a mere fabrication of paranoid minds?"

    Yes, but the point too is that it didn't happen in stages. We only learned the truth in stages, and I am sure there are more stages to come. I want to ask about U.S. Mail being opened. I am sure 2 boxes incoming and one letter outgoing of mine were opened.

    I posted about the coverup just a bit ago. The coverup is NOT worse than the crime in this instance. The crime is bad and the lies are bad. I want to hear more about the lies and denials by Bush, Gonzales, Hayden, et al.

    Say no to hate, bigotry, and the author of the Fed. Marriage Amendment, Marilyn Musgrave. Please donate to Angie Paccione.

    by OLinda on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:31:13 PM PDT

  •  Dat frog is..... (0+ / 0-)

    one daid amphibian. Is our Democracy, what few shreds that were left, dead too? Senator Kyle says that the questioning of this program by anybody is and I quote: 'Nuts'. So there you have it the meme is in place. If yer for freedom from being data mined, wiretapped, recorded why yer 'Nuts'.

    I you wanna do something besides whine about it join me in our blogswarm. Tell the fat, deluded assholes who think we will put up with anything they want to do to us that...

    They are fucking wrong.

    "Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing."

    by Nestor Makhnow on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:31:38 PM PDT

  •  If you have nothing to hide... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aitchdee

    you have nothing to fear.

  •  Er, about that...thing...Hunter: (12+ / 0-)

    don't call me. I'll call you.

    Street Prophets: where the cookies live now...

    by pastordan on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:32:09 PM PDT

  •  Headlines (4+ / 0-)

    The only mention on CNN's webpage is the third small sidebar headline "Bush: We're not trolling your personal life".

    The main headline is "Big Easy's New Evacuation Plan -- Don't bet on it."

    I bet the White House is praying for another major hurricane soon.  Cable news fluff coverage, even billions more distributed to "contractors", and another reason to start back at Step 1 with Katrina "recovery".

    Talking about New Orleans, remember how Orwellian Bush looked lit in light blue speaking in the plaza?

  •  Great post (4+ / 0-)

    I think that there may be one or two more intermediate stages before we get to the specific individuals you mention.

    We will have some felons first then some non US citizens just so people don't get to alarmed. Creeping fascism is their game.

    'Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it'. - GBS

    by stevej on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:34:47 PM PDT

  •  I love those who say (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    who threw da cat, Rick Oliver

    "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about."

    Pretty soon we will be hearing "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about home invasions, warrent-less arrests, and being locked in the cell with the key thrown away."

  •  'Turns out the paranoids were right' (4+ / 0-)

    Just saw a promo for The Situation Room and those were the words that came out of Tucker Carlson's mouth with respect to this latest revelation.  "Paranoids" indeed.

    "I think we miss that touch so much that we crash into each other, just so we can feel something."

    by Nancy in LA on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:35:09 PM PDT

  •  my favorite paranoia inducing technology (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aitchdee, bablhous

    PANS are personal area networks and can basically be "you" as a little "server" and "origin" place.
    In other words, everywhere you go, you are in essence a server plus a little network, connected to everything and your location especially is known.

    There are things called "e-location" services, generated by both GPS and your IP address (SIM on your phone and so on).

    Ok, this is the technology that will allow you to buy a coke with your cell phone or laptop.

    It's also the technology that will tell the coke machine you're walking by it and thus the coke machine will TALK TO YOU and ask, "*Don't you want a Coke, aren't you thirsty?*"

    Can you imagine the privacy violations when not only every move you make can be data mined, but your physical location can be data mined also by corporations?

    eek!  Makes speech recognition software extracting my little telephone mutterings seem like  crayon scribbles in comparison to a legal summons.

    http://www.noslaves.com http://forum.noslaves.com

    by BobOak on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:35:23 PM PDT

  •  three words (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Paper Cup

    hacks that assured us none of what we now know to be happening was happening

    Three words i have yet to hear thrown at one of the TV blowhards

    "You were wrong"

    Election fraud, negligence, torture, spying... What's it gonna take? A BJ?

    by kamarvt on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:36:22 PM PDT

  •  Why Are Any of You Surprised? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    viscerality, bic momma

    These people are cultists; they'll support anything Junior does. Consequently, they are all complicit in the treason of this administration. I keep hoping that the next day's revelation of crimes and corruption will awaken the sheeple from their terror coma. But so far no luck.

    Somehow we've gotta get the story of Junior's treason on American Idol. Maybe then America will notice.

  •  5 would be (0+ / 0-)

    that they used this information for political and business purposes right!

  •  So What Else? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RantNRaven

    Tracking what shows you are watching on cable?

    Tracking the web sites you browse?

    We know they are checking library records.  What about videos you rent?

    Credit card purchases?

    I think you can safety assert that they are doing all of the above.

    I am working to put their lying, murderous, thieving asses in jail.  Not good enough to impeach.

    Must. Go. To. Jail.

    Preferably after a short stay in The Hague.

    We'll see you at Yearlykos!!!

    by InquisitiveRaven on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:37:31 PM PDT

    •  This is where it gets crazy (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee, InquisitiveRaven, webweaver

      There are federal laws ALREADY ON THE BOOKS guaranteeing these specific records must remain private.

      I listed them in my diary today (couldn't resist the diary pimp).

      1. rights to financial privacy act

      Sets conditions under which federal investigators can access an individual's bank account records.

      1. electronic fund transfer act

      Requires banks that provide EFT services to disclose the circumstances under which account information can be disclosed to third parties.

      1. privacy protection act

      Protects the press and others that disseminate information to the public from unlawful government searches and seizure of their work product and other materials.

      1. cable communications policy act

      Protects the privacy of cable television subscriber records.

      1. electronic communications privacy act

      Protects the privacy of electronic communications and transactional data such as telephone records.

      1. computer matching and privacy protection act

      Protects individual privacy in connection with government benefit programs in which an individual's records at one government agency are compared against similar records at other agencies.

      1. video privacy protection act

      Mandates a court order to gain access to videocassette rental records.

      But apparently pesky little things like federal laws don't mean much these days.

      "It is possible for one side to be simply wrong." - biologist Richard Dawkins

      by duck on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:36:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ask Judge Thomas (0+ / 0-)

        Wasn't that last one passed because of the revelations of his renting history during his Supreme Court confirmation hearing?

        "Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't nothing?" Brian, Family Guy

        by Hazardman on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:49:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Leaks to reporters (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hunter

    Now, does anyone think that leaks to reporters, say, of records of Katrina discussions, or Energy Task Force minutes, would be off limits?

    I can think of a nearly infinite number of other possibilities.  

  •  Are Telcos violating their Privacy Statements? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StuartZ

    The participating Telcos came out saying they provided this information to the NSA out of the interest of "national security".

    But aren't they still obligated to comply with their Privacy Statements?

    Of course, I am of the opinion that Telcos might be criminally liable here. But doesn't this open the possibility of civil litigation against them regardless?

  •  GUNS (3+ / 0-)

    I want a giant database of all the gun owners in America.  You know to cross reference for terrorists.

    Did you see this by the way on cnn.com
    A Catholic school teacher is fired for using in vitro fertilization.  Headline Video now

  •  Simple rule of thumb. (12+ / 0-)

    At every step they have been daring the Democrats to take this issue on full force. That tells me that they are scared shitless of this one.

    Another rule of thumb is that when a story like this breaks and they immediately trot President 31% out to make a statement they are so far outside the law that they make Al Capone look like George Washington.

    "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

    by Mike S on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:41:43 PM PDT

    •  An example from Hewy Hewitt. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      joynow, StuartZ

      This is the folly of the hand-wringers. They have cried the Orwell's 1984 wolf too many times toget a rise out of the vast majority of Americans who recall that the enemy would still like to incinerate them and millions of their fellow citizens in their beds or behind their desks. Democrats are willing to be understood as believing this risk is secondary to the need not to have phone numbers collected in search of patterns that detect terrorist activity.

      Fine. Let the elections be fought over these two NSA programs. The Most Democrats oppose them. Most Republicans don't.

      "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

      by Mike S on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:46:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  good for bush (0+ / 0-)

    wouldn't be surprised if he leaked it himself. Unfortunately, the general public doesn't understand or care about 4th amendment. This will be good for Bush

  •  known wiretapping is inherently flawed anyway (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webweaver, OneCrankyDom, RantNRaven

    during the Gulf War, I was close in physical proximity to a lot of sensitive intelligence, although I didn't actually come into contact with an ounce of it.  still, someone thought it would be a good idea to tap my phone.  I was tapped at that and the following two addresses.  I found the tap pretty quickly, and anytime anyone would say something foolish over the phone, I would quickly remind that them someone was probably listening in.  hence, if I really had secrets to dispense, it should have been obvious from the start that I wasn't going to be telling them over the phone.

    with these taps now quite notorious, are real criminals/terrorists going to say anything over the phones?  the only terrorists stupid enough to do that are in the White House

    •  EXACTLY (5+ / 0-)

      Why the hell do they think that just because THEY'RE morons, every terrorist wannabe is as moronic as them?

      They KNOW they're being watched, listened to, possibly followed. Why the hell do you think they use throwaway phones, public computers, coded messages?

      If these MORONS were halfway decent at POLICE work, they would find out a hell of a lot more without shredding everybody else's rights.

      •  But terrorism (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hhex65, MarketTrustee

        isn't a law enforcement issue, remember?

        Democrats - applying common sense to common problems for the common good.

        by Rick Oliver on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:52:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well it certainly isn't (0+ / 0-)

          a MILITARY issue either. We've seen how well THAT works.

          The successes over terrorists have ALL been through law enforcement. All of them EVERYWHERE, have been LAW ENFORCEMENT successes.

          The military has NEVER worked. Never.

          •  nothing with them is (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            webweaver, bablhous

            ...a military reason
            ...or a law enforcement reason.

            the bottom line is the bottom line, every time.  they are tapping not to put "bomb" and "xx target" together in a sentence, but to have less obvious info on anyone that gets in their way.

            politician having an affair?  if they're anti-Bushies but not bigtime enough to be able to really encrypt their communications, then they can be gotten to.

            •  I totally agree. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              webweaver, mjd in florida, hipcheck

              This isn't any more about terrorism than anything else they've done.

              It's all about power, retaining power, getting more power.

              The reason they make you go through that crap at the airport while refusing to scan cargo - they want you to face the idea of terrorism and be scared, be quiet, be compliant. They know they're not going to catch any terrorists this way and they have no intention of wasting any of their stolen money on cargo scanning. It's about control and cowing the public.

              Everything they do is focused on that.

              Be scared, be quiet, be compliant...while they steal everything that isn't nailed down and then they'll steal you and sell your services to the highest bidder.

              Booga-booga!

              "We have to address the fact that the president has broken the law." -- Senator Russ Feingold.

              by bablhous on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:47:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the matrix (0+ / 0-)

                as Morpheus said, it's a prison for your mind.

                and look how many people are in it.

                then again, that makes me sound like a lefty, when I don't believe in left or right, I just believe in truth (which happens to fall toward the left most of the time these days)

      •  Of course they're morons (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hipcheck

        The underlying tool in NatSec investigations and clearances is the polygraph.  Any real scientist worth his salt will tell you they are incredibly easy to fool and, in fact, have a no better than 50-50 chance of really detecting lies.  This has been the bedrock of their serious NatSec machinery for decades now.  All based on a lie.  As is the polygraph examination itself.

        A pessimist sees a glass half empty. I see a paper cup with holes punched in it.

        by Paper Cup on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:51:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  incompetence (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hipcheck, MarketTrustee

      The Brits have a similar situation.

      Data is only good if you are able to use it in the fight against terrorism.

      Ask Sibel Edmonds about having the information to stop terror, and yet being unable to do anything about it.

      She knows all about it.  

      "Rovus Vulgaris Americanus" nasty, freshly-demoted, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

      by shpilk on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:04:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  interesting (0+ / 0-)

        yep.  and as I've said before (lost in the threads somewhere), I was gobbled up by AOL while at Netscape, and got to see that they tracked every iota of IMs they could... and were still far less evil with that than M$ is.  of everyone, I'd go after M$'s records if I were the Bushies.

  •  Everything they say ignores the big huge question (5+ / 0-)

    IF you know who you're looking for, YOU CAN GET THE GODDAMN WARRANT. Period.

    If you DON'T, it's a fishing expedition, and nobody knows WHAT they're fishing for.

    I have absolutely no problem with them going after suspected terrorists. IDENTIFY them BEFORE you go after them.

    This isn't even a needle in a haystack - when you've got a mountain of needles, how do you find the one you that you're looking for?

  •  Someone's trying very hard to get the country's (9+ / 0-)

    attention by leaking this.  I just hope it works.

    "The legislature's job is to write law. It's the executive branch's job to interpret law." --George W. Bush, Austin, Texas, Nov. 22, 2000

    by littlesky on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:48:36 PM PDT

  •  Aircraft carriers (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bablhous

    are heading to the gulf area according to Talkleft.

    Talkleft says june attack on Iran is possible

    OH FUCK

    Have A Bloggy Day :)

    by eeff on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:48:57 PM PDT

  •  I have a good friend who was selling (15+ / 0-)

    ... data mining software to large call centers so I am somehwat familiar with this technology.  This particular software was being used in conjunction with digital recording technology to sift through huge volumes (minutes) of recorded calls to cull words, phrases and other key elements to help companies spot trends through "business intelligence."

    While I was scanning the web for more information on the subject, I came across this company.

    Not only do they offer technology to record calls, digitally, but they also offer the data mining tools to analyze these recorded calls:

    Actionable Intelligence from Each and Every Call
    Activ Insight’s state-of-the-art speech recognition technology converts recorded conversations into text, which can then be searched and analyzed to uncover valuable business intelligence for trending and other purposes. Unlike other speech recognition and data mining technologies available today, Activ Insight’s advanced capabilities provide multiple search criteria and trending features, which in turn deliver a broader scope of actionable business intelligence.

    Analyze 100% of Calls
    Organizations traditionally expend massive resources in telemarketing campaigns accompanied by exhaustive manual playback sessions in order to uncover business intelligence. By using Activ! Insight’s data mining capabilities in conjunction with Voice Print’s Activ! Suite of digital recording technology, businesses can immediately begin analyzing 100% of their calls.

    So dig a little further on their website... Who are their customers?

    Well, among their client list, you'll find:

    • U.S. Air Force
    • U.S. Army
    • U.S. Marines

    And if you click through to their Government Agencies link, you'll also see the logo of the F.B.I. rotating through in the upper left corner of the page on their list of government clients.

    I think we can safely assume, based on the Bush administration's never-ending moving-of-the-goalposts on this story, that the NSA is doing far more than accumulating phone records.

    They are very likely recording calls and sifting them with a software akin to the one described here.
    Could this company be providing that software?  They are already working with the military establishment and the F.B.I.

    This is worth exploring.  I have used my diary allotment for the day on this NSA-relayed gem so I can't detail this in a diary tonight.  But it may worth the time of others to investigate this possible link.

    Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

    by Bob Johnson on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:49:33 PM PDT

    •  thanks, bob (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bob Johnson, viscerality, Eikyu Saha
      for demonstrating where US software companies go, when they can no longer export product and systems integration.

      (that would be the dot.com crash. and oh IBM's delayed cash out, for example, not to mention former Big 4 consulting, and other verticals such as LOCKHEAD which is now deep into fed agency software.)

      the tri-state DC economy is "booming".

      Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

      by MarketTrustee on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:07:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  remember, you read it here first n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aitchdee

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D. IMPEACH!

      by TrueBlueMajority on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:12:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's just a thought (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gorette

        ... but I should send this info to an enterprising reporter -- if there are any left.

        Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

        by Bob Johnson on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:29:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  could stir a hornets nest (0+ / 0-)
          thing is, reporters get their info (free) from commercial analysts like IDC, forrester, jupiter (or is juniper?), and a host of other "special interest" analysts -- who get their info from industry PR officers, then publish estimates of current and future market size and value. they are shills. the job is to invent IT uses ... god, i could quote a zillion paid email "news" items .... and this stuff is echoed half-assed in MSM, to cue consumers (everybody needs cellular GPS to locate their hat) about what they NEED to buy (inside their car). then there's gov data (much less since 2001) and international sources like OECD.

          mind boggling. Americans LOVE this stuff.

          the trick is to verify all the sources in one humungus spread sheet.

          makes more common sense, bob, to speak your mind. here. there. everywhere.

          Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

          by MarketTrustee on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:36:41 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  The Overton Window in action (7+ / 0-)

    Notice how cleverly the adminstration sold this program at least to their own base (which at least used to have "get the government off my back" leanings).  Had they said, straight out, that the feds were grabbing and sifting through everyone's phone records and email, not only would the Democrats rebel, but many Republicans too.

    The Overton Window idea is about gradually shifting the boundaries of what is acceptable; to do so, they couldn't tell the truth in one step.

    So they dribbled it out a little at a time, gradually changing the story.  Of course spying on al Qaeda is OK.  Um, well, we might have listened to a few international calls to.  Um, well, maybe we data-mined every international call, but we don't care if you called your Aunt Tillie in Paris (you traitorous Francophile, you).  OK, well, if there was any connection to someone al Qaeda called, we might have traced that.  At each stage, they wait until they have the Congressional troops in line before the next detail dribbles out.  And now we have it: AT&T essentially gave them everything, records of every single call made (not the voice itself, but who called who).

  •  Qwest (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    StuartZ, bablhous, MarketTrustee

    is my phone company.

    One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

    According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order - or approval under FISA - to proceed.
    ...
    Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

    In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government.
    ...
    Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.
    ...
    "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

    Read here (end of article) about Qwest's refusal to break the law!

    If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything-Mark Twain

    by Desert Rose on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:53:29 PM PDT

  •  'Tens of millions of Americans' (0+ / 0-)

    Well, as any grammar school child knows, there are "10s of millions" (i.e. 10,000,000) and there are "10s of millions" (i.e. 90,000,000+).

    So if you take the CIA estimate of the US population as of July 2006 (I think that's an apt reference considering the topic even if it makes my calculations more conservative), and calculate the low and high percentage of Americans who've been spied on by the always-typical NSA, my calculation is that anywhere between 3.35% and upwards of 30% have had their privacy violated.

    Hmmm ... "upwards of 30%" ... could it be that Bush is spying on his own base a.k.a. "the backwash"?

    "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

    by Glinda on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:54:23 PM PDT

  •  Cointelpro Papers (0+ / 0-)

    Makes COINTELPRO look like kindergarten.

  •  Joe Scarborough is pissed about this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hunter, Matilda, viscerality

    So maybe there is hope.  He said this is so widespread, so untargeted, that it has no relation to getting Al Queda.  He just said it is dangerous and it has no relation to any spy program.

    The Democratic party - the party of sanity, reason and kindness.

    by adigal on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:56:28 PM PDT

  •  Even Joe Scarborough is disgusted (0+ / 0-)

    You should be afraid. You should be very afraid.

    .Joe doesn't like this one little bit. And he's on a rant as I type this.

    He has oil. He tried to kill my daddy.

    by kensa on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:56:56 PM PDT

  •  Thom Hartmann filling in on the Majority Report (4+ / 0-)

    and as usual, he's on fire.

    He mentioned an interesting little nugget I had never put together in quite this way .. that Tom Daschle and Pat Leahy were both in key positions to stop the Patriot Act ..

    ..  and they were the only two to have letters with anthrax in them mailed to their Senate offices.

    That really puts this NSA thing in a new perspective, don't it?

    ----------

    Makes one wonder ... whatever happened to the investigation into the anthrax attacks?  

    "Rovus Vulgaris Americanus" nasty, freshly-demoted, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

    by shpilk on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:57:25 PM PDT

  •  You're probably even being billed for the costs.. (4+ / 0-)

    You mean you didn't see the line item "Spy Taxation Fee" in your last ATT bill?

  •  We need oversight (0+ / 0-)

    The government should assign one or two people in each community around the country to oversee their neighbors and make certain their civil liberties aren't being violated. Maybe give them each red arm bands for easy identification. Maybe give them wireless GPS devices for speedy communications to, you know, immediately locate "problems."

  •  I don't mind (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roscodagama

    I don't mind if they mined mine.
    I'm not blind, I just haven't whined.
    What will they find?
    A doorway to my mind?
    Now that would be most unkind.

    Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set... -- Gandalf

    by dnta on Thu May 11, 2006 at 05:59:18 PM PDT

  •  I'm changing... (5+ / 0-)

    ... the outgoing message on my answering machine, to something like this:

    "Hello, you've reached _____.  If this is the NSA, go fuck yourself.  If this is a telemarketer, hang up now.  If this is anyone else, leave a message at your own risk."

    Who's with me?

    There's nothing wrong with this country wot a few good Visigoths can't cure. -- Me

    by Mehitabel9 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:01:10 PM PDT

  •  Going to US in a few weeks and I'm really afraid (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aitchdee, MarketTrustee

    not of being spied upon, but of running into my sister-in-law.

    The last time I saw her, she was telling me with pride how she appeared in the Arlington, TX video campaigning for the George W. Bush Memorial Library.

  •  What disturbs me most is (7+ / 0-)

    how many people accept the WH bullshit. Some Americans are willing to accept anything in the name of "security." How many cities now have cameras everywhere? How many people think this is OK? When I was growing up (I'm 51 now) Americans would be screaming bloody hell if the government (state, local or federal) even thought of putting cameras around to spy on us. But now, it's ok, because that's how we catch crooks (something tells me this isn't the best way. Wouldn't it be better to prevent crime, not just figure out after the fact who did it? Silly me).
    And now spying on us to gather every last bit of intel on every Americans possible. we've heard about stuff like this for years. Only no one's had the balls to do it before now. But, heh heh, 9-11 changed everything, no?
    Wake up America! Hitler did it in his time, and Bush's grandaddy learned well from working with Hitler. They might have failed in the 40's but they've figured out the game and now we're the patsies.
    America is better than this. We must fight back. No Cameras, no warrentless spying, NO POLICE STATE!!!!
    As Ben Franklin once said: They that would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

    All Truth is non-partisan

    by MA Liberal on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:03:00 PM PDT

  •  Why Hunter is my favorite fp'er: (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joynow, aitchdee, bablhous, viscerality

    This frog seems fairly well boiled, at this point, doesn't it?

  •  Suppose the database ends up in the public domain (0+ / 0-)

    for some legal reason or other.  Everyone would be able find out who their friends and family members have been calling, or receiving calls from.  That could get interesting.

    •  some legal reason?? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jay23

      Banks have released credit card numbers by mistake, Blackwell released SSI#s {supposedly} by mistake.

      Forget legal reasons .. anytime there is information like this, it's at risk of being released in error, or for monetary interests.

      It would not surprise me if these records were released to some marketing company, for a kickback to the RNC.

      "Rovus Vulgaris Americanus" nasty, freshly-demoted, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

      by shpilk on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:14:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  the pattern of lying is truly nixonian (5+ / 0-)

    in his final weeks, nixon was lying as fast as he could, on a daily basis, just to make it through the evening press conference, knowing all the while that his lies would be debunked the following day. those were desperate days.

    now we have the same pattern with bush. each new story is just an attempt to put up one more little firewall to stave off the inevitable damning revelation of the next ever-more-horrifying truth. as the end draws near each revelation comes a bit faster on the heels of the last. these are desperate days.

  •  gonzales (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    DaveV, joynow, Gorette

    remember when he insinuated that the "terrorist surveillance program" was not the only wiretapping scheme?

    you think this was another he was referring to?

    just wondering, f

  •  After the first NYT story, I assumed all calls (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    joynow, aitchdee, Gorette

    were being monitored.  I mean, its the Bush Administration.  Of course they're wildly overreaching proper bounds, and of course they're going to try to attack political opponents in illegal ways.  

    Back in 2004-5, Senator Kennedy couldn't fly because his name had somehow wound up on a terrorist watch list.  The news media did their typical 5 seconds of coverage and then moved on.  They really didn't even ask for an explanation from the Bushies, but the basic jist was "mix-up---although sorta funny if you get our drift, heh heh."  I got their drift, all right.  Mix-up?  No, a mixup is when you thought your friends were meeting at 8:15 but everyone was meeting at 8:00.  His name was placed on their as a deliberate attempt to use DHS to screw a political opponent.  Would you expect anything more from Rove?

    Oh, and any phone calls that happen to be in Arabic?  They're sitting in a filing bin somewhere, because NSA probably doesn't have any Arabic interpreters.  Hayden makes the horse lawyer at FEMA look like he was doing a heckuva job, indeed.  

  •  The question I want asked (3+ / 0-)

    I want Dems to hammer on one very simple question until it makes it into the MSM: If all you have is the phone numbers, the time and date of the call, and presumably the length, how do you determine from that if someone is likely an Evildoer?

    I know more than a little about things like computer searches, data mining, etc., and for the life of me I can't figure out what kind of pattern they could detect in this data that would be a reasonable indicator that someone was deserving of more attention.  Frequency of calls?  Time of day?  Duration of calls?  Any pattern based on such scanty information would have a very high probability of being a result of completely innocent behavior.

    And doesn't this all suppose that the real Evildoers aren't smart enough to take a cue from mob flicks and use cells phones once and then dump them?

    •  Yes...and... (0+ / 0-)

      ...how hard is it to get a warrant to pen register/trap and trace all calls to and from a particular number, or any number used by a particular person?

      And why would you want to burden any intelligence agency with all the background clutter?

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:58:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Lucid (0+ / 0-)

    Thank you for this diary...

  •  What's really scary... (0+ / 0-)

    is to think that some in congress probably did know about this for some time, and chose to leak it only now in retaliation for Bush's Hayden nomination.

  •  Of course not. Don't be silly. (0+ / 0-)

    This is a very limited programme !

    Echelon monitors all calls in European countries.

    I think all EU telephone providers have signed up to this surveillance, and, either from pressure from the CIA or from the US alliance, all this information is available to the US security agencies. And do you hear any protests from the EU ?

    The silence is deafening !

    So - you may have it bad in the USA, but Big Brother is alive and well in Europe too - and protests here are muted - almost non-existant compared to the USA.

    Solution ?

    Don't use the phone - SMS - e-mail. If you do - use coded messages !

    rosco

  •  A call for help from Kossack lawyer types... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aitchdee, StuartZ

    How is this NOT in violation of the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act?

    I teach Consumer Economics to 12th graders, and did a mini-unit on consumer privacy. This was one of the laws we reviewed.

    It says consumer telephone transaction records (i.e. call records) cannot be accessed without a warrant.

    Yet, on ABC News (radio version), a reporter made reference to an unnamed SCOTUS decision saying consumers don't have a expectation to privacy concerning numbers dialed.

    So is the ECPA null and void now? How is teh NSA data mining program NOT in direct violation of that federal law?

    "It is possible for one side to be simply wrong." - biologist Richard Dawkins

    by duck on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:22:48 PM PDT

  •  Boy, NBC Nighly News (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Paper Cup

    is shilling for Bushco! Much more Pro-Bush rhetoric. Wow....!

    "Rapturists. Suicide bombers. What's the diff?" Plato

    by steelman on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:27:43 PM PDT

    •  Owned by General Electric (0+ / 0-)

      which makes the boats, the bombs .. big surprise there.

      "Rovus Vulgaris Americanus" nasty, freshly-demoted, soon-to-be-indicted co-conspirator -7.63, -9.59

      by shpilk on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:43:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  CBS did a much better job... (0+ / 0-)

        Lots and lots of skeptism in Evening News' coverage of the story tonight.

        Bob Schieffer did a good job with the look of incredulous that he was even anchoring a newscast where this would be a story. Refer to his opinion segment a month ago on "Face the Nation". He took it to the administration then, and the reporting last night did it again.

  •  Better dead... (0+ / 0-)

    than Red.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Hey hey, ho ho, irresponsible corporatism and social intolerance have got to go! Hey hey, ho ho!

    by kfractal on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:31:07 PM PDT

  •  Verizon denies that it is involved, not really (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aitchdee, StuartZ

    After contacting Verizon by e-mail I got the following response a few hours later:

    Thank you for contacting Verizon Wireless through our website.  My name is Stephen, and I am happy to assist you regarding the USA Today article.

    Recent stories suggest that the Federal Government has been collecting the phone records of potentially millions of Americans as part of the war on terror. The stories specifically reference customer records of landline companies, including AT&T and Verizon.
    This is NOT a story that affects Verizon Wireless customers.

    If you are a customer of Verizon Landline Communications, you may want to contact the company at 1-800 483 7988.

    Verizon Wireless is not involved in this situation.

    As you can see, Verizon is denying only that its wireless (cell) phone service is involved.  It is effectively admitting that its landline service is involved.

    I sent an e-mail also to Bell South, my landline provider, at the same time.  Bell South has not responded. I believe Verizon plans to buy Bell South, and but I am not sure that deal has completed yet.

    It is important that all phone customers contact their phone service providers to protest the NSA spying, except Qwest customers who should thank their company for not getting dirty with the NSA.

  •  Kit Bond is a fucking liar and moron (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shpilk, Brooke In Seattle

    He was just on the Lehrer News Hour on PBS with Pat Leahy, and proceeded to tell the following lies and/or inanities:

    1. The revelation that the NSA collects phone records has very seriously endangered and damaged national security.
    2. Bullshit. Terrorists (at least the ones we really need to worry about, as opposed to doofuses like Richard Reid and nutjobs like Moussoui, already know or assume that we're doing these things. Any smart 10 year old knows that we're probably doing these things. Bond clearly takes us all for morons, but he's the real moron if he thinks we're falling for this. It's laughable to even assert such a thing.

    3. A court decision in the late 70's (Maryland v. something, I forgot the specific name) established the right of the government to obtain business records without warrant.
    4. Leahy proceeded to demolish this by stating that subsequent decisions and laws, including the Patriot Act, have overriden this precedent. This legal argument simply doesn't hold water.

    5. This program only targets calls in which one end is abroad.
    6. Lie. As the USA Today article clearly points out, this program specifically collects call records on domestic US calls.

    7. The intelligence committees have been fully briefed on this and other programs.
    8. Lie. Only a handful of members have been regularly briefed on selected portions of these programs, and then not allowed to discuss these details with their colleagues let alone the public.

    Republicans LIE. It's in their DNA. It's what they do. It's who they are. It's the only thing they're good at. You can even see it in their faces when they do it. Bush is especially bad at hiding his "tells", but it was evident on Bond's face as well.

    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

    by kovie on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:33:19 PM PDT

  •  Information available to the Bush White House (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webweaver, bablhous, goverup1

    The question which should be asked about the NSA data collection effort is how did the NSA avoid collecting information about the John Kerry campaign?  Unless they took special steps they would have information on everyone Kerry called and when.  So the White House could have found out everyone Kerry called to raise money or discuss strategy with.  If the White House had access to this information, then they had a tremendous, unfair advantage in the last election.

    ps: Ask the White House to release the access control list and the audit records for this data to reassure the American people, that they didn't look at Kerry's records or records for other members of his campaign staff.  

  •  In Twenty Years... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bablhous

    Even if they did nothing with the data at this point, they will have this stuff available for the forseeable future.  Your phone calls from 2,002 and 2,006 will be available to anyone.  And, I believe, we are not just talking about phone logs.  My guess is that they have digital recordings of every phone call and e-mail you've made.  So if you run for office in twenty years, they'll know exactly who you spoke with and what you said for at least the past 5 years.  In fact, perhaps this will someday make it into the hands of the general public.  Then everything you've said on a phone or e-mail would be available to anyone with a computer.

  •  I suggest (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roscodagama, rabel
    1. We all change over to Quest
    1. We sue all the others companies, Verizon, ATT, Southbell
    1. We demand that the President takes a lie detector test every Friday afternoon, so that we can get to know of all the lies during breaking Friday evening news and analyze them in the weekend editions and Sunday morning network shows.
    1. We all take up the telephone at the same time to call into any of the the offices of the intelligence gathering communities and whisper through the wire to them: "Hi, shhh, hey, I have a number for you of a terrorist, who just wanted to talk to me, do you want that number?" You know which number to hand out, don't you?
  •  Verizon's response (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rabel

    to my complaint:

    "This message is in response to your email dated May 11, 2006.  You inquired about the recent NSA news report.
    "We do understand your concern.
    "We appreciate that the USA Today article and other reports about the possibility that the NSA is able to analyze local call data records is causing concern. Please be assured that Verizon places the highest value on protecting the privacy of our customers.
    "Anything to do with the NSA is of course highly classified, so we can not comment on whether or not the news article causing concern is even accurate. But we can say that, to the extent that we cooperate with government authorities, we are confident that  we are complying with all applicable statutes. We appreciate the continuing opportunity to provide you with service."

    Hah, like I have a choice.  Where do I sign up for a class action suit against Verizon?

    My brother has some arcane specialty in computer chips, and travels all over the world participating in conferences and lecturing at universities.  If he ever called my parents from, say, a hotel in Cairo, then their calls and mine are undoubtedly also in their database.  Wonder if a supposed terrorist ever also stayed in that hotel and made calls.  All so interesting...

    •  Ummm Contradiction? (0+ / 0-)

      Where do I sign up for a class action suit against Verizon?

      nowhere. Verizon already told you: "anything to do with the NSA is highly classified".

      ?????

      how are you, I or anyone going to prove we were wronged by the phone companies when we can't get the records? it's not going to happen.

      even IF some federal judge somewhere makes a ruling, the phone companies will suddenly have a "fire" in their computer room and the needed records will be "lost".

      "Think of Iraq as a military base with a very large oil reserve underneath.... You can't ask for better than that." Fadel Gheit

      by Superpole on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:56:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, aye (0+ / 0-)

    If the object is to detect patterns in call traffic, how does one distinguish between an interior Al-Qaeda cell and Betty Lou calling up friends for a Tupperware party?  If no attempt is being made to monitor the actual voices, how does one determine whether to tap or not?  If they're monitoring a billion calls a day, where are they storing the records?  Are they tapping into Verizon et al's databases, or do they actually have that Giant Hive that keeps being bruted about?

    "Jack, turn back! There IS no war! I'm fine! We're all fine!"

    by MaxWedge426 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:50:47 PM PDT

  •  Suggestion (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    espresso, shpilk

    I think we should all take a deep breath, then organize like hell.  Get the Libertarians (they're ALL mad about this, if you haven't heard), the Independents and Democrats with half a brain, and the ticked-off 30% of the Republican party all together.  Then march on Washington.  Instead of the Million Man march have a "Million Mined" march or something of that variety.

    -4.00 -4.15. So apparently I'm Ghandi's twin. Visit my website: The Independent Texan

    by onetwostep on Thu May 11, 2006 at 06:53:40 PM PDT

  •  I spend a fair amount of time (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roscodagama

    outside the US.  I have no doubt whatsoever that all of my electronic communications are recorded and surveilled by the NSA computers, and that includes telephone calls and even Kos comments.  They know perfectly well what I think of GWB and of economic matters, and they also probably know all about my aging mother's bladder issues.  I'd bet my bottom dollar, though, that NSA-internal rules have been rigged by the neocons to ignore any kind of financial transaction related to corporate malfeasance.  DOD bid rigging? Nope.  Halliburton tax evasion? Nope.  Hoe limos? No way.  The way Bush has defined it, corporate malfeasance is not terrorism -- terrorism is anything that interferes with corporate malfeasance.  

    •  But only THEIR corporate malfeasance. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eikyu Saha

      "We have to address the fact that the president has broken the law." -- Senator Russ Feingold.

      by bablhous on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:09:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  All the stuff you think they don't keep... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      webweaver, Eikyu Saha
      is blackmailing material for the Bushies. You haven't forgotten about blackmail? It was always my theory that no politician could have a successful political career without doing lots of illegal stuff because of all the money that is needed for campaigns. Which means they are imminently blackmailable. Which is why they don't contest stolen elections, for instance. Or suddenly support opponents that they loathe. Corporations are no different: they can be shaken down, and in protecting their markets from the reality of their true non-competitiveness, they pull stunts that they want to hide. Enron, for instance, was far too egregious in their criminal activity for a long time, but they were able to continue their shell game while people knew what was going on and kept it quiet in return for lots of cash to their campaigns. Only when it went too far did Enron collapse. As they say, "There is no honor among thieves."


      -7.25/-6.41 Service [to others] is the rent we pay for the space we occupy. -Rev. M. L. King, Jr.

      by sravaka on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:36:08 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Vote to tell Democrats NO on Hayden (0+ / 0-)

    Do you agree with me that we must demand all Democrats must vote NO on Hayden?  Vote on my diary here, then contact your Senators:

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

  •  Truthtellers targeted (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hunter, roscodagama, Superpole

    There are hints everywhere that the administration is abusing its powers to spy on activists, reporters, and whistleblowers, including this from Wayne Madsen. Though the administration tries hard to keep a lid on it, some light continually creeps out from the edges. There's no reason to believe the NSA would be any different than the FBI or CIFA.

    Support government whistleblowers!

    by goverup1 on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:08:46 PM PDT

  •  The Next Stage..? (0+ / 0-)

    is fairly clear, don't you think?

    The Corporate Inquisition.

    "Think of Iraq as a military base with a very large oil reserve underneath.... You can't ask for better than that." Fadel Gheit

    by Superpole on Thu May 11, 2006 at 07:51:50 PM PDT

  •  GE spins more BS on NYC local NBC news at 11 (0+ / 0-)

    They just did a piece on the NSA spying.  They called it "a post 9-11 twist" and framed it as "some people say it's needed and the ACLU says it's illegal".

    No mention at all that it IS illegal.  GE is entitled to their opinions - can a corporation have "an opinion"? - but they are NOT entitled to their own facts.

    Boycott "Deal or No Deal".

    A pessimist sees a glass half empty. I see a paper cup with holes punched in it.

    by Paper Cup on Thu May 11, 2006 at 08:03:51 PM PDT

  •  Wow - what news today! (0+ / 0-)

    This is beyond strange.  How can this be the United States of America?

    I used to wonder how Germany in the late 1930's was able to turn the government against the people.  We now have a demonstration.  You scare them then you chip away.  A little here a little there. Once scared they will roll over.

    I have some friends who should know better.  Some have ancestors who suffered once Germany turned on its citizens.  They can't see it.  Why can't they see it?  Why???

    •  Words Cannot Penetrate (0+ / 0-)

      a propagandized mind.  They have been assured by rightwing pundits and priests that liberals are liars, and not to listen.  It is an effective strategy against words.

      But not against pictures.

      http://commons.wikimedia.org/...

      If you have a color printer, some clear tape and a car bumper, put these on it.  Words cannot deny the horrible images of Abu Ghraib, so put these and more images in front of the denyer's face.

      Later add a few pictures of New Orleans for good measure.  These images need no words, and their truth cannot be quipped away by a cynical propagandist.  The misery caused by George Bush and his henchmen is there for all to see.  

      Don't tell it to them; show it to them.

  •  Would suggesting (0+ / 0-)

    communication via encrypted means be a bad thing?

    First they call you a traitor, then they pass the Patriot Act II, then they tap your phone, then you move to Canada. -- Mohandas Gandhi

    by roboton on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:13:14 PM PDT

  •  We should have (0+ / 0-)

    an "everybody use the phone at once and call your phone companies' 1-800 number every ten seconds for 2 hours at 16:00 GMT" or someshit.

    Knock the whole fucking network OOS. Break it.

    First they call you a traitor, then they pass the Patriot Act II, then they tap your phone, then you move to Canada. -- Mohandas Gandhi

    by roboton on Thu May 11, 2006 at 09:19:45 PM PDT

  •  This is a limited program. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    webweaver
    It's limited to Bush's enemies list, reporters, leakers, other opponents, Democrats in Congress and elsewhere, Cindy Sheehan and her gaggle of supporters, and other anti-war and anti-Bush groups.

    This program is the secret that John Bolton was keeping from the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee during his UN Ambassadorial confirmation hearings. John Bolton was using this program to spy on people he thought were obstructing the neo-con's plans for taking over America and obstructing him from sabotaging negotiations whose direction he did not like, say with North Korea. And this program will also be looking at everyone who posts to dKos.

    How blatant does this stuff have to get before people realize what is going on. As that old Bob Dylan song used to say, "You don't need a Weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing." Of course the Republicans are corrupt: They are sure that they are going to get away with Plamegate, Hookergate, DeLay-gate and all the other -gate scandals. And, depending on how the midterm elections are fixed up, they will. I don't think impeachment goes far enough towards clearing out the bad actors and is, in some sense, an idea that's more like a wetdream for liberals at this point than a strategy for solving the problems of a runaway Republican Party that seeks to become THE government, much like the Communist Party did in the Soviet Union.


    -7.25/-6.41 Service [to others] is the rent we pay for the space we occupy. -Rev. M. L. King, Jr.

    by sravaka on Thu May 11, 2006 at 10:19:38 PM PDT

    •  and Bush tells us that it is completely lawful (0+ / 0-)

      particularly when you the Preznit are above the law and can change the law to suit your own nefarious purposes whenever you want. Just like declassifying the NIE when it was expediant for him to (claim) that he had declassified it.

  •  Confirmation of mined data? (0+ / 0-)

    Was it confirmed that they are doing scans for trigger words, etc., in this permutation of wiretapping?  The spin I keep hearing is 'well, they are only recording numbers, not conversations.'

    First, I think that is a fairy tale.  However, I need something to point to that illustrates it is a wee bit more involved.

  •  i could kiss you (0+ / 0-)

    but that would mean the terrorists had won.

  •  You Know They Spied On 2004 Democratic.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ti Jean, webweaver
    Contenders and nominees.  Everyone knows this is eventually where this is heading.  Does anyone think for a minute that these folks DIDN'T, and still ISN'T using this against political opponents.  I'm willing to bet cash money this is revelation #6, #7, or #8, or all of the above.

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