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Billmon:

The real question in my mind is what the attack puppies are trying to accomplish. Surely they must understand that in the end, there is no such thing as bad publicity for a blogger. Ann Coulter has built an extremely lucrative career out of being attacked in print by her opponents. Does the TNR really think Daily Kos's traffic and ad revenues are going to do down because of this? If so, it may explain why the fucking rag is withering away: an absolute lack of business sense.

Seriously, though, I suspect the real objective here is to try to scare away the Democratic pols who have been cozying up to Kos and the liberal blogosphere. The sight of all those powerbrokers -- Harry Reid, etc. -- lining up to kiss Kos's ring in Vegas must have really set the klaxons wailing at DLC HQ. It isn't that Kos is particularly liberal or progressive (the right wingers only yell that he is because they understand that he isn't.) Go where the real lefties hang out, and you'll learn mighty fast that the name Kos is a dirty word in those circles -- right up there with those other well-known fascist running dogs like Howard Dean and John Kerry.

But in the end it doesn't matter. The Lieberman Dems don't hate and fear Kos and the Daily Kos "community" because they are too far to the left. They hate them because they represent an emerging power center within the Democratic Party that they don't control -- what's more, one that is now much closer to the public mainstream on the central issue of our time (the Iraq War) than they are.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:21 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Billmon (14+ / 0-)

    is obviously right. Have these people ever been to a grassroots event? I have and an exit strategy for Iraq wins applauses even from elderly church ladies!

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:22:14 AM PDT

    •  If the ycould see the diversity (3+ / 0-)

      of people at events like th one you described, they wuld know better than to call it the liberal/left/fringe.

      "History will judge the GOP's abdication to the NeoCons as the single worst tactical blunder since the Taliban gave safe harbor to Osama bin Laden"

      by BentLiberal on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:26:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I thought we were fascists? (5+ / 0-)

        Now I'm utterly confused. Kos, What are we? I'm running out of cash, first I buy a Red Banner, thank God for ebay, then I am getting my brownshirt fitted and now what? Am I supposed to go out and get a tie-dyed neru jacket? I'm starting to question your ability to lead this whatchamacallit.

        •  Personally, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AemJeff
          I think the liberal blogs are very good for the conservatives.  It allows the conservatives to easily cherry-pick the most offensive minority of posts and present them as "the typical liberal opinion"...which they are clearly not.

          One of the strengths of the conservatives is that they have done a good job of shutting-up the crazy cousin in the attic... NO conservative openly supports Robertson, few grant debate points to Buchannan.  But, the liberals cheerfully support the most outrageous bomb-throwers.  (Cold, Hard Political Lesson --Swiftboating works....just disavow the messengers and ignore the message.)

          I suspect that there will be an incredible dynamism in the Democratic Party for some time...but also little unity.  When the unity finally occurs, the conservatives will be in for a surprise.

          Best regards,

          •  in the short term... (0+ / 0-)
            Shoulda read: "I think the liberal blogs are very good for the conservatives in the short term"
            •  That's right, but there's more... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BarbaraB

              Did it ever occur to anyone that TNR is seeking to replicate what Ann Coulter is doing to produce a "lucrative career out of being attacked?"

              It is becoming fairly common for one party to jump down another party's throat in the hopes that the ensuing catfight will bring them attention.

              Hmmm...Maybe I should attack Markos on my site and sit back and watch my traffic explode.

          •  Missing dynamic. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rjo, Warren Terrer, Timothy J

            One thing you are leaving out is the double standard. When someone like Harry Belafonte says something silly every democrat is questioned about their support for his statement and if they don't outright condemn it they are excoriated. The same can't be said for the right. Mary Matlin actually endorsed Coulter's "screaming harpies" grotesqueness and there was barely a peep. That belies your point about the left being the only ones that "cheerfully support the most outrageous bomb-throwers. And don't get me started on the Malkins, Powerlines and Bolgsforbush's. They call for our deaths. I'm sure Brook's has an op/ed lined up for them.

            When a Democrat says something dumb it is elevated to the status of being the dem position. When a Republican does it is ignored.

            This is a result of the GOP "working the refs" for decades. The bullshit meme of a "librul media" has made the media elevate every charge against a Democrat by the GOP while it has ignored many against the GOP.

            They even give credance to the newly coined "Bush derangement syndrome." The idea that the left hates Bush so much that they will do anything to destroy him. There is no memory of the 8 years of Clinton where everything was grounds for an investigation. If you can point me to one main stream article or story where any member of the media has asked why it is wrong to have a congressional investigation of warrentless wiretapping yet was right to investigate Clinton's friggin dog I would be blown away.

            That hasn't happened. That is one of the dynamics that is missing from your comment.

            "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

            by Mike S on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:29:30 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Mike (0+ / 0-)
              With all respect, are they calling for your deaths?  (If they are, that is wrong and shocking).

              I didn't disagree with the double standard, but I provided a reason for it.... the conservatives cringe (usually).  Coulter has SOME great points, BUT she is incredibly mean and vicious which diminishes her argument.  "Victims" with microphones is tiresome and a spectacle...when either party does it.

              Your point on the investigations has some merit.  Fortunately, both parties put that independent counsel law to rest.  It seemed good when Nixon (a former hero of mine) CLEARLY abused his power and privilege...hence "former".

              Best regards and thanks for the points!

              •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

                With all respect, are they calling for your deaths?

                If I wasn't on such a crappy computer I'd provide links.

                As far as cringing goes, the vast majority of us cringe and that is ignored. The best example of that is Ward Churchill. I know of no one that backed what he said yet he was made into the poster child of the Democratic party.

                Personally I think the Ind Council law was a good law that was incredibly abused. If Ken Starr had had half the integrity of Patrick Fitzgerald things would have been very different. When Fitzgerald couldn't find sufficient evidence to indict Rove he said so. Star just kept expanding his inquiry. At one point he was calling in every woman that was rumored to have slept with Clinton on the off chance that Clinton said something about Whitewater in bed.

                Think of that for a second. How absurd is it to even posit the idea that in the middle of sex someone, anyone, is going to say something like "boy did I make a lot of money off of Whitewater." It's absurd.

                Good law can be abused.

                "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

                by Mike S on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:54:07 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Message is half of the battle (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mike S
                  When the response is "He has freedom of speech" vs. "I disagree with his premise, disavow his comments, and he is only polarizing the discussion"... I side with the second.  There are ways to disavow him and option one was weak (and used by a lot of prog/dem people who received Churchill warmly and damned O'Reilly in the same breath).  What a failed message if you want to gain voter shares.

                  A good idea which becomes a crappy law is...a crappy law.  There are a lot of great intentions that fall into crap....can anyone say "Katrina relief/fraud"?  I don't believe any administration would have been ready for that, but the better get ready.

                  I hope you are wrong about the death threats.  If they are similar to some of the hateful things here (limbaugh recently comes to mind) then I say anonymity breeds this kind of crass behavior.  If it came from "responsible" people (and only from the right), then by all means I stand by you.

                  As always, you have good points and I like where you are coming from.

                  Absurd?  Imagine... "glad your hubby is out of town"... that will remain anonymous, also!  ;)

                  Best regards,

                  •  KOS is marginal w/o Mom & Applie Pie issue (0+ / 0-)

                    .....like saving social security by reducing war spending. (excuse the double post, but I'm rescueing this from the troll thread) And if that does not happen soon, y'all will be smeared as a bunch of whack jobs, because the lack of an issue like that gives the wingers carte blanche to smear KOS. So until that happens, get used to being slapped around. That damage will be cumulative.

                    I suggest Social Security because how will Brooks and Klein say "Do you know what those heathen circus freaks want now? To save Social Security!"

                    Like the rest of the Democrats, KOS is also marginalized by following the GOPs fringe initiatives like bans on gay marriage and flag burning. Less than 5% of the population considers these the #1 threat to America, and by following the GOP lead you merely end up marginalized. So pick your own issue and start flogging it.

            •  the double standard (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mike S

              This is true. Harry Belafonte is virtually a non-person, despite the fact that he stood at MLK's side during the I have a dream speach.

              Rush Limbaugh laughs as he calls out the names of AIDs victims and Cheney is his personal guest on the anniversary of 9-11.

          •  Crazy cousins? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Pundimatic

            One of the strengths of the conservatives is that they have done a good job of shutting-up the crazy cousin in the attic... NO conservative openly supports Robertson, few grant debate points to Buchannan.  But, the liberals cheerfully support the most outrageous bomb-throwers.  (Cold, Hard Political Lesson --Swiftboating works....just disavow the messengers and ignore the message.)

            Whoa.. then what are Coulter, Limbaugh, and O'Reilly then? Adopted feral children from a jungle?

            They have never shut up the crazy cousins, they just are good at promoting that the left is crazy and has failed the people. Even though their "religious conservatism" has failed both the religious as well as the conservatives in their party.

            In order for the left to win, they have to put up the numbers. Everytime you hear a Republicrat saying they are for small government you put up a chart of non-defence discretionary spending increases of the last 40 years. Everytime you hear a Republicrat say they are for government staying out of your lives, you put up the "No Child Left Behind", the new prescription drug benefit program, and video of Frist on the floor of the Senate trying to "save" Terry Schiavo.

          •  'Unity' is overrated (4+ / 0-)

            In a healthy democracy, there is great diversity of opinion in politics, and lively debate of ideas.  Lack of unity isn't a weakness, it's a strength.

            Take a moment and think of some of the most unified political parties in history.  Which one jumps to mind first?  The Nazis.  Perfect unity.

            Idiot America get's taken in by the GOP attacks on the Democratic party's diversity of ideas.  Democrats should simply respond by telling Americans that they are proud of their diversity, and explain why having lots of different ideas is a good thing.  

            "I'm no booster of the Horse - I got off that pony a long time ago." ~ Stephen Colbert

            by Subterranean on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 11:07:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Idiot America" (0+ / 0-)
              Your point has some traction.  But at the end of the day, someone has to pick one path/idea/course of action and ....ACT.

              Good, healthy discussion is good.  But like in business and war, at some point something has to be done or nothing will get done.  Even if the wrong path is chosen, there is usually time to adjust, whereas continual discussion resolves nothing.

              I am not damning your position, but ideas don't solve problems (and some of the ideas truly are ridicule worthy, but the libs don't have a monopoly on that.  Which republican brought up interment camps for illegal immigration?).

              Best regards,

            •  Definitely (0+ / 0-)

              if you have lots of ideas, you have something else to try when your first one doesn't work.

              And the first idea NEVER works.

              The rethugs have NO ideas other than the one they decided on. If their one idea doesn't work, they just keep banging their head against the closed door, ignoring the open window 2 ft away, and the gaping hole in the wall 5 ft beyond that.

              Because you HAVE to go through the DOOR. You can't go through a WINDOW, or a HOLE. Bush said you can't DO that. You're a TRAITOR if you do that.

              But before you climb through that window, they'll ask for some aspirin for their horrible headache - they've got no clue why they've got the headache, but they're sure that if they just keep banging their head on the door it will go away and you're going to DIE and/or GO TO HELL if you go through that window/hole...

    •  nitpick (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mmacdDE
      Billmon is right about a lot of stuff, but he's dead wrong here on one particular point:

      Harry Reid wasn't there to kiss Kos's ring.

      He was there to kiss our collective ring. And for good reason, since we are the new activist base of the Party. Or at least we will be if we can turn all this bloggerin' and speechifyin' into concrete reality.

      -5.88, -4.21 / Kossacks! Become a Precinct Captain!

      by maxomai on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:23:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  How the D.C Pundits get Rich & Influence (0+ / 0-)

    elections.

    How?

    They do exactly what they're accusing markos of doing.

    In fact, they wrote the book.

    Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:22:47 AM PDT

  •  Your ideas (4+ / 2-)

    The Dems are scared of your common sense progressive ideas. I saw you with Brian Lamb and you were able to argue every point.

    Kos for Kongress!

  •  newsweek, etc (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2, yoduuuh do or do not

    i noticed that newsweek went from sorta being intrigued by the kos blog, to being a bit scared, to being outright fearful/angry. ive seen 2 articles in the last day that point to newsweek DIRECTLY mocking kos.

    the thing is, once the site gets so big, mocking it as "kids" stuff doesnt work so the attack escalates to "kos is a maniac/egoist/nutty" whatever they decide on.

    doesnt matter. as i said b/4, they dont understand this blog. and you cant beat what you dont understand

    Those were good times, as far as we knew. --Colbert

    by AmericanHope on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:24:45 AM PDT

    •  Convention (0+ / 0-)

      Well from the convention, and how many people sowing up. the wingnut finally wake up and actually start doing a job on dkos.

      question now, what we gonna do about it? (the publicity that comes with it, jujitsu strategy to capture the incoming readers, opinion analysis,  and of course increase the proliferation of independent blog/media)

      TEACH everybody to blog...!

    •  Partly, this is the media cycle (2+ / 0-)

      The Regular Media Cycle (without Rovie intervention):

      1. And you are?
      1. Hmm. What will kids think of next?
      1. Hey, those kids are pretty cool.
      1. Those kids are cool, but they're getting too big for their britches.
      1. Those kids are a menace.
      1. How are those kids dealing with the barrage of criticism? (If poorly: Damn amateurs; routine coverage ends here. If well: Hmm, those kids can take a licking; routine coverage continues.)
      1. Markos/Daily Kos become just one more voice. Reporter asks, "What do Markos/Daily Kos think of issue X?" while asking the same of the Heritage Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute and other dial-a-quote sources.
      1. If this keeps up for awhile, Markos/Daily Kos will be part of the permanent media repertory company and the media will run long, loving obits about Markos when he dies.

      Rovie intervention:

      If the Rovies really are intervening, they might be manipulating this process by feeding the idea of writing "Those kids are a menace story" to reporters. The Rovies may actually be sending reporters folders (e-mails with attachments) featuring a slantered dossier on Markos along with the stupidest stuff ever posted on Daily Kos. The great thing would be to find an intern/spy who could photograph one of those packets in the reporter's office, so it was obvious that the reporter really had it, and then post that here. That would be fun.

  •  They fear... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, sodalis

    what they don't understand.

    •  Understand too well (13+ / 0-)

      I think Billmon is right, they understand it too well.  Kos represents a completely different power center than the DLC, a power center based on people around the country rather than "experts" and corporate financiers in Washington.  

      The fight against the DLC is more important than the fight against Republicans.  We can beat the Republicans on both organizing and ideas once we're not hamstrung by these guys.  The DLC's fear of the actual people in the Democratic Party is what has been killing the Party for 2 decades.  They would rather lose an election badly than win it well.  They want victory, but only victory that maintains their control of the party.  If a victory would mean other people in the party would gain a say in matters, they'd rather just lose it and remain the loyal opposition.

      •  They are so angry about Dean as DNC Chair (6+ / 0-)

        they can't see straight.  Articles about him in the job say the big money people can't even get their phone calls returned.  They keep attacking him and he keeps beating them.

        They said above that they ignored us for a while, then made fun of us and now attack us.  According to Gandhi, we're about to win.

        •  they managed to destroy him (5+ / 0-)

          when Dean ran without their permission, and progressives did nothing.

          They swiftboated Kerry, while he stood by, did nothing, and waited for the public to magically disbelieve them.

          Now they're doing the same to Kos. Kos, you just going to stand by and do nothing?

          Bring the Troops Home. Restore Constitutional Government. Take Back Your Nation.

          by khereva on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:32:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Could you please explain (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bayside

          They said above that they ignored us for a while, then made fun of us and now attack us.  According to Gandhi, we're about to win.

          Can you explain what  "...about to win" looks like?

          •  Just look at the conservative backlash movement (0+ / 0-)

            Winning involved being ignored, being made fun of, being attacked, and then winning surprise elections throughout the midwest and south in the 90s.

            It comes as a surprise to people.  We may or may not be there yet.  Here's hoping.

            "[Americans] make tallow out of cattle and money out of men." --Ferdinand Kürnberger (1821-1879)

            by Pundimatic on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 03:57:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  HA.... (5+ / 0-)

        ....after a decade or more of arguing for the outsourcing of American manufacturing to other countries, based on the kind of supply chain management that a global information system can provide, suddenly the DC Punditocracy is waking up to find that the same information revolution has outsourced the discourse of democracy.

        They have no leverage, because they can no longer deliver a formed public opinion to their inside sources, or deliver genuine insight to the public that is actually interested in the issues. As a result, their bosses can't deliver eyeballs to advertisers.

        And that's where the rubber hits the road. They have no business model and no clue. It's actually pretty funny.

      •  DLC's fear. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        weasel
        To add to weasels list:  the DLC's dealmakers scramble in fear for their jobs.  That's plenty of reason anywhere to take out the long knives.  Imagine not being invited to the cocktail party circuit anymore ...
    •  and they (4+ / 0-)

      fear what they understand all too well.

  •  my opinion (0+ / 0-)

    is they are simply poking around to see how this new thing will respond to different kinds pressure.  They are learning us.

    So far, I think the response back has been good.

    And if it sells, so much the better.  

    •  No That Kos (0+ / 0-)

      ad revenues go down, but that TNR ad revenues go up.

      At the end of the day, TNR and David Brooks, like the other media outlets, is all about making a buck.

      All too often the media outlets seem to try and catch a ride twice, on the way up, and on the way down.

      What I don't think they understand is that netroots isn't a fad but a natural evolution from the democracy of the internet.

      They'll poke us with a stick here and there, just to see what makes us yelp and get attention.

  •  Old adage (0+ / 0-)

    Any publicity is good publicity.

    haa haa...

    PS. Hey dkos should jump into the "FON" bandwagon, they are giving away WiFi router for $5 ...they are trying to build planetary size WiFi blanket.

    what's in it for Dkos? Podcast baby. Time for dkos to get into wireless business. Build NEW wireless transmission network from scratch  ...

    (too lazy to dig FON link)

  •  Do we have any indications yet... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BarbaraB

    as to whether or not this round of attacks was in any way successful?  Have any Democratic politicians that may have otherwise gotten to know us some more suddenly shied away?  Are Reid, Pelosi, et al., staying away now?

    I still see quite a few politicians posting diaries here, we have Rep. Louise Slaughter's diary currently on the Rec list.  President Jimmy Carter's was up there last night.

    Is there any tangible information out there about the reaction of the politicians themselves to this kind of slander dKos is getting?

  •  People only go after you (4+ / 0-)

    if you're making waves, and making a difference.  When you sit around and cause no grief no one cares.  When yo start to grow, become successful, do things that others widh they had done, THAT'S when you start having pot-shots taken at you.

    Kafka: The Trial; Republicans: In power.......... What's the difference?

    by ekeithj on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:26:24 AM PDT

  •  Can we have FP post about the Flag Amendment? (3+ / 0-)

    It's gonna be close and we need all the attention we can get.

    "To any sheriff or peace officer of the State of Texas; Greetings: You are hereby commanded to arrest: Thomas Dale Delay" -Warrant for Tom Delay

    by who threw da cat on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:26:32 AM PDT

  •  Interesting threat to the Israel lobby of DLC (8+ / 0-)

    The overriding concern for the neolibs, I think, is not that Kos and the netroot activists will lead the party off to the far-left fringes, but rather that they are willing, even eager, to form alliances with conservative nationalists like Jim Webb (the Va. Senate candidate) who've been forced out of the GOP because of their opposition to the neocons and their insane schemes. From Marty Peretz's point of view, this is very bad. Left unchecked, it could even pose a threat to the sacred alliance with Israel.

    It's not that Kos (or Webb, for that matter) are outspoken critics of the special relationship. Far from it. But it is clear that the constituencies they represent, or hope to represent, are much more skeptical about U.S. intervention in the Middle East than the Democratic old guard -- which, let's face it, is practically welded to the Israel lobby. Even worse, this is all happening at a time when the Iraq quagmire is making the costs of our imperial role in the region painfully clear.

    For a time it was suggested that the Israel lobby would resurrect the DLC and back the Democrats as a means of ensuring continuous control and uninterrupted policies.  If we are a threat to that, we will have a very ugly fight on our hands.

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

    by LondonYank on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:28:11 AM PDT

  •  Everytime the Site gets mentioned (2+ / 0-)

    That's another ten thousand or so people who visit it and can decide for themselves. Dissing the site, its participants, or its founder is counterproductive to say the least. That's a real dilemna, not just for the DLC-ers, but for the RNC as well.  They haven't figured out how to deal with it.  They're trying various strategies with little effect.

  •  nutty (0+ / 0-)

    It's nutty how the caracature's play out-- I think there is a competition to see how much wrongness you can pack into one meme:

    "The crazed ultra-left maniacs, lead with an iron fist by their ruler Markos, hate the moderate Joe Lieberman for his stance on the war..."

  •  America was not built on fear .. (6+ / 0-)

    ... America was built on courage, on imagination and an unbeatable determination to do the job at hand.

    -- Harry S. Truman

    Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything.

    -- Harry S. Truman

  •  The Central Issue of Our Time (0+ / 0-)

    is probably saving Jeffersonian Public Schools, Defending the Core Program of the New Deal (Social Security), and Preventing the De-Industrialization of America.  

    OK, actually that's 3 issues, but none of them are Iraq (where KIAs will probably never reach 10% of Vietnam).

    Democrats are the party of those who are working, those who have finished working, and those who want to work. -- Elizabeth Edwards

    by philgoblue on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:29:41 AM PDT

  •  Exactly. (4+ / 0-)

    Billmon's exactly right. But I can't help thinking that y'all should do a better job of being a little more upfront about Townhouse. Norquist doesn't hide the existence of his Breakfast Roundtables.

    Are there more potentially embarassing posts to be leaked from the Townhouse archives?

    One would think so, if the reason for its existence is so that participants can be more frank than they would in public.

    •  To be honest I was (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IM, BarbaraB

      happy to read about Townhouse. One of the things that has depressed me is just how willy nilly things get covered. If blogs are going to be a successfull counter to talk radio we need to have at least some similarities.

      The reason TR has been so successfull for the right is that they are all on message. That is because there is massive coordination between the GOP and the talk radio bigs. I recommend that people listen to a day of talk radio. If you can't stomach it just listen to the first ten minutes of each hour of each show. You will see the pattern of each show talking about at least two of the days four talking points. Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity, Medved, Hewitt and the rest have the same story, no matter how obscure, and the same talking points.

      Now I'm not looking for everyone on the left to be in sinc on their views. But I do think that some coordination on stories pushed can be a good thing. As a matter of fact different takes in the same story is a plus because it's easier to make a more informed opinion with different takes.

      "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

      by Mike S on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:40:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Strongly disagree (2+ / 0-)

        There's no reason for that coordination not to be done openly. It would be better and safer if it were to be done openly. We would all see why certain points of view were being accepted, because our popular bloggers would be publically challenging certain points and receiving arguments against.

        There is a beauty to the blogospheric process that keeps it healthy and safe. A backchannel short circuits that completely.

        We are different than the fleet of talking heads on the boobtube. And I'm shocked that you would hold them up as something we should aspire to.

        •  Thanks for carefully reading my comment. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BarbaraB

          You got all of my points correct. Especially my last graf.

          "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

          by Mike S on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:56:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Its not about Left and Right (9+ / 0-)

    They still don't get it-

    Its not about left and right.  Its about trust, honesty and competence.

    I know I don't agree with Webb on everything.  I don't agree with Ben Nelson on everything.  But from what I have seen I TRUST them as 1) people; 2) Democrats; 3) public servants.

    Note Joementum, despite being more "liberal" than these two, has violated my trust in him as a Democrat (for his FOX News waffling; violated my trust in him as a public servant by his ridiculous defense of Iraq; and finally, has shown his true colors as a person by how he has handled Lamont.

    Bush will be impeached.

    by jgkojak on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:33:02 AM PDT

  •  Suddenly, after YearlyKos, bloggers had faces .. (12+ / 0-)

    ... and, guess what? They weren't all a bunch of Far Left kids with nose earrings and tattoos. They were active, intelligent, and responsible Americans.

    That's what scared them.

  •  They attack (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    crystal eyes

    Because that is what politics has become. Not out of fear but out of experience. If you risk a fair fight being positive go negative, and go negative first so you can get the leg up. That's tried and true, so if you don't like something why go any other route than the race to the bottom.

    Its true across the spectrum and across the medium. Just look at some of the threads here. The sad thing is, I don't see anyone really trying to counter it. There are a few, but most of the time their message gets either ignored or their victories written off as flukes, or people just don't even acknowledge them. The environment has evolved to partisanship and everyone has become a partisan hack or a demagogue, and noone cares enough to change.

    Dare to be naïve. -R. Buckminster Fuller

    by Moniker on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:36:33 AM PDT

    •  The attack sound bite is a television phenomena (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Pithy Cherub, BarbaraB

      The history of warfare is the exploitation of an innovation.... (bronze blades, chariots, and the long bow).  The first guy who uses a new weapon kicks ass.
      Repubs developed a coordinated negative media assault with cultivated networks,  surprise swiftboat attacks, and disciplined attack talking points.

      Enter the next chapter of political warfare with the counter attack of the rabid lamb squadrons completely flanking the Maginot/Fox defenses.  
      The side stuck with the with obsolete weapons is always pissed when their arsenal becomes degraded.  

  •  The Heartening Thing... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BarbaraB

    ...is that ordinary folks...not merely politcal bloggers...have come to recognize these frenzied attacks for what they are. Propoganda not even believed by the idiots spewing it.

    The things I've read about Kos this past week have been pretty damn amusing. He's an ultra-leftist gun-toting Central American revolutionary! He's a secretly-funded Republican operative! He maintains absolute power over his minions with his mind-control lasers!

    This is why people no longer take the main stream media folk seriously as well. Please, frenzied attack trolls and pseudo-journalists, continue to make yourselves irrelevant. You are doing the nation a favor.

  •  i would also like to remind all that our new (0+ / 0-)

    viewers will be looking hard, so let's keep doing those great diaries with relevant information for john q or sixpack joe. they need to learn and many of our regular diary folks can do that.

  •  Billmon has the definitive post (10+ / 0-)

    on this topic, it's worth a full read.  The true intention of the MSM coverage is to dry up the funding to netroots candidates.  Everything else is just a sideshow.

    •  It may have the opposite effect (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Timothy J

      some people may not realize that there are disaffected people like them out there and will come here and realize that politics can be people powered. This could end up having disastrous consequences for the MSM, the DLC and Republicans in general. And to that I say "Fucke em!"

      The gauge of how well it is working will be the mid-terms. We have to help our candiates help us help us crash the gate. The more the MSM points us out the more help we'll have to take back our government.

      With a big ol' lie And a flag and a pie And a mom and a bible Most folks are just liable To buy any line Any place, any time ~ FZ

      by f furney on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:13:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This is the antithesis to the DLC thesis (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    yoduuuh do or do not

    I read that over at mydd.com, and I think this needs to be understood. What the blogs are advocating is not only a new power in Democratic circles, but one directly at odds w. the way business has been done. A new way of thinking of leadership that really isn't new, but new to this generation (those who were in power during the Reagan era who remain at the seat of power now). They don't have a frame for that so they use the one's they know. Of eventually, there must be a synthesis if this is going to work out- but not before a lot of pain and sweat.

  •  If they can't have it, they want to destroy it. (0+ / 0-)

    It's always been this way.  Movements like this, movements like Gore's climate crises, the abortion issue -- geez, along time ago girlfriend and I were planning on driving to Alaska and then to find a summer job.  

    Everyone was scared, they said we were going to die somehow.  Didn't happen,  I had the most beautiful experience and the most incredible time in my life. So beautiful, you would not believe your eyes.

    People always attack things that are so good, they want to destroy it, because they know they can't have it.

  •  Money money money (6+ / 0-)

    Those threatened by Markos and, by extension, Daily Kos, are the same folks who felt threatened by Howard Dean when it became clear that Dean could raise boatloads of money from regular folks without kissing the pinky rings of the consulting or corporate classes which had become accustomed to dictating presidential frontrunners.

    It's ALWAYS about money.  Always.

    Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

    by Bob Johnson on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:47:39 AM PDT

    •  and dont forget Information (0+ / 0-)

      .. Thru there, we receive, combo over and distill vast amounts of information way before the MSM even get a sniff. Then we send it around so when the MSM begin to peddle thier misinfo.. we all call Bullshit and show em what we found.

    •  Cui bono? (0+ / 0-)

      cui bo·no
      Pronunciation: 'kwE-'bO-(")nO
      Function: noun
      Etymology: Latin, to whose advantage?
      1 : a principle that probable responsibility for an act or event lies with one having something to gain
      2 : usefulness or utility as a principle in estimating the value of an act or policy

      Who benefits from the attack on Kos and Jerome and other prominent bloggers?  Sure, MSM feels threatened by the erosion of its readers, and sure, TNR is trying to increase its web traffic, but who is whispering in their ears?  In the beginning, I thought it was all about Lieberman.  I'm starting to think that it's also partly about Warner.  If you have the stomach for it, check out Mickey Kaus' part in all this on Slate (and no, I'm not going to up his traffic by providing a link.)  But it's pretty clear that the concerted attacks on Jerome go beyond his relationship to Kos -- astrology, anyone? -- and seem to be aimed at getting Warner to fire him and to stop trying to build support in the netroots.  Who benefits from that?  Just askin'.

  •  Ad revenues? (0+ / 0-)

    We don't need no stink'n ad revenues!  We're the Netroots!

  •  Power (6+ / 0-)

    Power hates democracy!

    Kossacks are not especially "progressive" or left.  Many chats which should be taking place are not on this site... 9.11 Truth... comes to mind.

    Nevertheless it is basically grass roots type of swell and that is skeery to the power elite... especially when they can't herd them and control them... and USE them for their means.

  •  I had forgotten (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beemer, BarbaraB, Timothy J

    how good a writer Billmon is especially in long-form posts.  His voice has that old, world weary wisdom that is comforting enough to allow me to relax and go along with him.  He has a gift that compares to Christy Hardin Smith.

    Anyway, I'm glad to see he's back today.

  •  Their 'scare away the pols' strategy won't work (7+ / 0-)

    How did Dean and Kerry become the highest-fundraising Democrats of all time?  How did we gain parity with the Republicans for the first time in decades?

    Who donated that money?  We don't have many billionaire sponsors, and they're limited by campaign finance laws.  Labor isn't the fundraising giant it used to be.  The business community was getting a bonanza from Bush, so it didn't have any reason to donate to us.  Single issue groups weren't particularly effective at raising cash in 2000 or 2002 (though they did other things well).  The candidates' piggy bank came down to one thing: people-powered politics.  It was us -- not just Daily Kos, but the blogosphere as a whole.

    In trying to get Dems to reject us, TNR is showing two things.  First, they're clearly proving that the initially "pragmatic" DLC mindset has just calcified to dogmatic just as harsh as any neo-Marxist.  Instead of helping Democratic candidates utilize this huge new funding base, they're trying to cut them off in order to maintain some level of ideological purity.  That kind of thinking doesn't win elections (most of us, by contrast, are perfectly willing to work with moderates like Webb, Nelson, Duckworth, and Casey when necessary).  

    Second, they're proving their political sense is as lame as liberals have always suspected.  Their plan is basically to knock us out of the race so that they can go back to being the powerbrokers between Democratic candidates and business donors.  But our track record has been SO much better than theirs at doing the things politicians really care about: raising funds and getting manpower.  So they're splitting the coalition, hurting Democratic candidates, and creating bad election-year press for the Democratic brand, all for an initiative that ultimately won't work.  Smooth move, super-geniuses.

    Oh but hey, at least they don't use dangling participles...

    Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

    by ChicagoDem on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:57:40 AM PDT

  •  So, where do the real lefties hang out? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blank, beemer, highfive
  •  I assigned David Brooks homework (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Sam I Am, Jules Beaujolais, BarbaraB

    Read the front page and several diaries on Daily Kos everyday

    Leave a civil and fact-based comment at least three times a week and monitor the response.

    Rewrite the column.  If it includes opinions of Markos, interview him for at least one hour.

    Mockery generally works best if it mocks things the targets actually do.  If you want to mock Daily Kos, you have to know something about it.

  •  Excellent analysis (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jules Beaujolais

    Excellent analysis from Billmon.  Thanks for linking it!

    Any status quo exists because some people are perfectly happy with it.  Kos' goal of "crashing the gates" is designed to upset a status quo so as to achieve larger goals.  We shouldn't be surprised that the first active resistance comes not from our common enemy, but from the beneficiaries of the current status quo.

    I'm proud to be a member of this community.  Reading this blog for the past two years has resulted in my being connected with politics and encouraged about the future of my country for the first time since high school (during the Carter administration).  Let the long nightmare that began with President Reagan come to an end!

  •  Uh oh. Here comes the 'antisemitism' charges. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Commodify Your Dissent

    Billmon just had to go and mention Israel.

    •  I wish people would reframe (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Commodify Your Dissent

      I think that, at this point, everyone who is ever every going to vote for a Democrat understands that you can criticize the Israeli government without being anti-Semitic or even anti-Israel.

      But, personally, I wish Billmon had defused this issue entirely by writing something along the lines of, "A special relationship that may not really be doing Israel any favors," or something like that.

      Because I think the thing to keep in mind is that misguided efforts to let Israel get away with gratuitous screwing over of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs are just plain bad for Israel's long-term interests. I love Israel, but Israel is a Middle Eastern country, and it had better learn how to deal with Palestinians as well as neighboring countries or, in the long run, the support of the United States won't do it any good.

    •  is it against the rules (0+ / 0-)

      to mention one of the most powerful lobbys in existence? what's the difference between criticizing the policies of israel and not jews, and criticizing the US gov and not americans? did you know that the citizens of israel are divided about their foriegn policies the same way americans are. i'm not going to be silence over fear of being labeled. thats the oldest tactic in the world. straight out of rove's book. like being called unamerican by not supporting the neocon agenda. cudos to billmon by saying what others are afraid to.

  •  Bingo! (0+ / 0-)
    You hit the nail right on the head......it's control.  They can't control us, and that makes them angry......they are control freaks.

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:07:51 AM PDT

  •  What if Kos himself disappeared tomorrow? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sclminc, Jules Beaujolais

    That wouldn't end the type of activism found on dKos, any more than Ray Kroc's death put an end to fast food restaurants.

    Those who are trying to "Swift Boat" Markos are, as usual, missing the point. We're driven by ideas, not personalities. And trying to give us marching orders makes herding cats look easy by comparison.

    "Nothing can destroy a government more quickly than its failure to observe its own laws"--Justice Tom Clark, in Mapp v. Ohio.

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:16:24 AM PDT

  •  We Have Not Yet Begun To Fight! (0+ / 0-)

    Ast hey attack the left and the blogosphere, NOW is the time for all to rise and say that we will not give up. We will not back down. That goes especially for those politicians who come to Kos. Uphold the rights and freedoms of all the people of America, uphold the ideals of the Democratic Party and we wil be with you. Play politics, use us for your own end, abandon your principals and we will discontinue our support. It is that simple.
    Fight the good fight and don't give up. We are winning, though it takes more time than any of us wishes it would.
    Then again, this country was not won overnight by that bunch of rag-tag revolutionaries. But they did not give up. The prize is worth the fight.
    The prize is our everlasting freedom and liberty

    All Truth is non-partisan

    by MA Liberal on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:16:47 AM PDT

  •  Dean NOT electable started in June 2003 w MSM, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    hester, beemer, BarbaraB

    this is the same bullshit from a bunch of LOSER elitist scum.

    IF they were Leaders of the middle, then they would NOT need to care about lefties or rightis,

    cuz the middle is ...

    bigger !

    They are NOT leaders, they are only in charge of a too Dead DSCC DCCC Dem "Party"

    rmm.

    http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

    by seabos84 on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:18:17 AM PDT

    •  Al From and Bruce Reed of DLC were the villains (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jules Beaujolais, BarbaraB, seabos84

      Their infamous essay, "The Real Soul of the Democratic Party," attacked the party's so-called over-educated elitists (read: Dean supporters, opponents of the Iraq war) and said that the party couldn't win unless it moved to the center (read: shut up, wave the flag, stay the course).

      What twaddle.

      "Nothing can destroy a government more quickly than its failure to observe its own laws"--Justice Tom Clark, in Mapp v. Ohio.

      by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:27:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  you mean the center that (0+ / 0-)

        does NOT want the USA to be a global embarassment,

        that wants health care available,

        that wants tax dollars well spent,

        that wants a country NOT in debt forever,

        that wants Dobson to keep his religion outta their religion,

        that wants Dobson to stay the hell outta their doctor's office,

        that wants hard work rewarded NOT cronyism and corruption ?

        that middle?

        the middle 85% that the thugs have lied to forever AND who the DLC Lame-O-Crats won't do a goddam thing for, well, except to also lie to them?

        did I call them "elitist scum" yet?

        rmm.

        http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

        by seabos84 on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:44:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Animal Farm ... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beemer, Jules Beaujolais

        Kos is feared because he refuses to be one of the PIGS at the table. Those living in Beltway Bubbleworld really think that they rule America and the World. Both parties view working Americans with utter contempt and as the enemies of their sponsors. They fear those who they connot buy. The 500 (the beltway press corps) save their vitrol for anyone who does not toe the two party duopoly line.  

  •  if the DLC had a dead grandmother (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    beemer

    she'd have felt that slap.

    OUCH.

    ronald reagan is the devil. proof: his names all have 6 letters. Ronald Wilson Reagan = 6 6 6.

    by danthrax on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 09:20:50 AM PDT

  •  Cointelprozac (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jules Beaujolais

    "Don't talk to these people, you'll lose your credibility.  Go back to sleep."  

    It's called marginalization.  Remember the military and intel computers on the Afghan black market a few months ago?  Filled with public strategy for marginalization in order to control the debate.  

    Don't pretend they don't attack their own people in the same way.  
    .

  •  I'm glad Billmon's post... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zannie

    ...has gotten this extra exposure.

    It's a solid piece in many ways, not the least of which is his clear description of what Swiftboating is and has become.

    Now if he'd just wrap up his account of the trip to Egypt...

    "...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

    by RubDMC on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:01:50 AM PDT

    •  i too have been hoping for that epic conclusion (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie

      but i'm afraid if we push for it, he may just retire again.

      (And I'm only saying that as someone who has looked forward to every billmon post since way back when he had comments... those retirement stretches can test one's faith.)

      wee shall be as a Citty upon a Hill

      by don fong on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 10:37:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  attack dogs (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    f furney

    its all about their power.  their jobs.  their paychecks.  their credibility.  Kos and the bloggers and the readers and the commentors threaten their future.  Remember your history.  The Church didn't want the peasants to learn to read - they might start to think for themselves.  The masters didn't want the slaves to learn to read - they might start to think for themselves. Now the msm and pols don't want the folks outside the beltway to read - we might start to think for ourselves.  And you know where "thinking" leads..............truth!  exposure!
    revolution! Broder etal have had their time.  Its over.  Step aside.  Retire.  Its more than a generational shift.  its an intelligence shift.  ITS THE PEOPLE STUPID!  we are here, we are educated, informed, we know what you have done, and we arn't going to take it anymore. I want to say there is a new sheriff in town, but that's melodramatic.

  •  A bloggofascist comes out of the closet (0+ / 0-)

    ... and he demonstrates how the whole Markos control thing really works

    http://bloggofascist.blogspot.com/

  •  This fact isn't really news... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Timothy J

    The sad truth is that there are far too many Dems (e.g. Schumer) who place club membership first and obtaining a majority 2d.  These Dems want the netroots to donate and to provide the foot soldiers but let our "betters" make all of the relevant decisions.  It's the kind of relationship they've had w/ labor for decades.

    It is news to these Dems that the netroots actually intend to have an influence in the decision-making process.  They don't like that idea, and they will vigorously resist it.  We've seen some of that resistance already in the sniping at Dean, and we'll see plenty more as CT tightens.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 11:45:06 AM PDT

    •  Yes indeed we will (0+ / 0-)

      We've seen some of that resistance already in the sniping at Dean, and we'll see plenty more as CT tightens.

      Brooks and the neocons are really trying to egg us on on behalf of Joementum; he truly is their token 'acceptable' Dem.  

  •  kiss the ring of the man that is not king? (0+ / 0-)

    how is that possible?

    er...

  •  So, where do the REAL lefties hang out? (0+ / 0-)

    I'd like to read those websites. Billmon's post was way too long. About 3x as much as it needed to be to make the same points.

  •  Gloriously unreachable (0+ / 0-)

    Is Rahm Emmanuel ripping the head off his teddy bear again?

    Seems to me the thing that so scares the attack puppies of the old media and the inside the beltway crowd is that we are all so unreachable snd uncontrollable.

    It's just such a difficult life when you actually have to address constituents instead of making deals with your fellow bloated pols.

  •  They're semi-sincere and they *have* biz sense (0+ / 0-)

    Just as the dustup will help ad revenues here, it will help TNR's revenue as well. And get them some readers who take a look and find that they're often vapid but not quite the monsters Kos makes them out to be.

    Support international labor-organizing rights -6.50 -5.69

    by Dvd Avins on Tue Jun 27, 2006 at 08:43:43 PM PDT

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