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[ story now running at Crooks and Liars : see Jesus' General, Bartholomew's Note's On Religion, and Talk To Action for recently uncovered aspects of this scandal ]

UPDATE : An action you can take: "The shaming project" You can help stop "Stop the ACLU Coalition" with just a few emails!

Jews On First was the group that did the original reporting that laid the key groundwork tht has enabled the wider blogoshpere to develop this emergent scandal

Two families, one Jewish, one anonymous, have fled a Delaware town amidst alleged death threats and threats of violence. One of the two families has remained anonymous...

Part of the reason the two Indian River families fled involve alleged threats, and those may have stemmed, in part, from the efforts of a group called Stop The ACLU Coalition to publicize the names, address, and telephone number(s) of the Dobrich family on the group's website.

Stop The ACLU Coalition has ALSO been doing quite a lot of work in the campaign to accuse the New York Times and the Washington Post of treason.

The flashpoint for the initial dispute that has led those two families to flee for fear of violent attack was an alleged pattern of egregious violations of church state separation in the form of the teaching of Christianity in an Indian River school. At least one Jewish family, the Dobrich's, raised an objection, and the outcome has led them to sell their home and relocate to another area.

A large Delaware school district promoted Christianity so aggressively that a Jewish family felt it necessary to move to Wilmington, two hours away, because they feared retaliation for filing a lawsuit....

....A former [school] board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might "disappear" like Madalyn Murray O'Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. She disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later. [ quote from Jews On First article that initially broke the story

Crooks and Liars is now covering the story, and kudos to Richard Bartholomew for noticing the fact that Stop The ACLU Coalition published personal information on the Dobrich family on the group's website ( see Bartholomew's Notes On Religion)

And, a special, double kudos to Jesus' General for instigating the striking written exchange below. In the end though, this story would not have emerged without the initial spade work of the new group Jews On First">Jews On First Below - exchange bewteen Nedd Kareiva and Jesus' General :
Below: Jesus' General's Letter to Nedd Kareiva, Director of The Stop The ACLU Coalition:
Dear Mr. Kareiva, Please allow me to be the first to thank you and the staff of Stop The ACLU for all you did to make the Indian River Pogrom such a resounding success. It isn't easy to run a Jewish family out of town in these politically correct times. Usually, they just hunker down, hiding behind antiquated interpretations of the Constitution and the good will of those who wrongly believe that non-Christians are entitled to all of the benefits of citizenship. But this time, the family fled, and I think you deserve partial credit for making that happen. After all, you did publish their name, address, and phone number on your web site (see screen cap below) as part of your "Expose ACLU Plaintiffs" project. It certainly wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that such information gave people the tools they needed to drive the Dobrich family from their home. Of course, you didn't do it all by yourself. The good god-fearing Christians of the Indian Hill School District deserve most of the credit. They took to the task of ethnic cleansing with a vengeance , not sparing anyone discomfort, not even the Dobrich children... [ excerpt from Jews On First story ]

Congratulations again for the success of your pogrom. I'm sure it's only the first of many more to come as we retake our great nation in Jesus' name. Heterosexually yours, Gen. JC Christian, patriot

Here is Nedd Kareiva's response to that letter from Jesus' General:
Pogrom? I'm not sure I want to call it that. That is not an appropriate term, however, I am pleased that we had an effect in this case. We have others we want to put up on the site to shame them but have not gotten around to it. And I'm not so sure I can take credit for it. However, if an ACLU speaker was booed, that's music to my ears. I would appreciate it if you would sign your actual name rather than JC Christian. Regards, Nedd Kareiva Director
There's more too ! [ see Jesus' General for that 'more' ].

More soon. This is a breaking story that MUST get more airplay.

You know what to do. Thanks.

UPDATE:

Relevant Writing and Resources: [ more coming soon ] The Republic of T has more on this story, especially in terms of related recent incidents in schools involving Christian harassment of non-Christians

Unfortunately, this incident is not an anomaly.

Here is a sampling of Talk To Action stories that have covered aspects of antisemitism and the Christian right:

"The Catholic League", mighty champion of ....gay bashing and anti-semitism ?, by Bruce Wilson

Why Pat Robertson believes Ariel Sharon has incurred the wrath of God by Joan Bokaer

Ted Haggard Wants Jews to be Afraid, by Richard Bartholomew

Evangelicals and U.S. foreign policy, by Esther Kaplan

Christian Zionism all juiced up,by Esther Kaplan

Anti-Semitism and the Christmas warriors, by Michelle Goldberg

Did Tim LaHaye Just Call Israelis "Not-To-Be-Trusted Yids?", by Max Blumenthal

Attack dogs, by Esther Kaplan

Falwell's "Gracious Correction" emphatic : No, Jews Can't Get Into Heaven, by Bruce Wilson

The End of Apologies?, by Esther Kaplan

Enough Hate Speech To Stun An Ox, by Bruce Wilson

Replacement Theology: "Those Darned Jews", by Bruce Wilson

Second major Jewish group in two weeks condemns dominionism, by dogemperor



From Bartholomew's Notes On Religion: writings on - Church and State in The USA and Antisemitism

Church / State separation issues from a Jewish PerspectiveJews On First



ACTION ALERT : Stop The UCLU has assembled a crew of 200 bloggers to support its initiatives. Here is a link to a list of those 200 blogs

HERE'S MY PROPOSAL : Simple Shaming.

EMAIL the members on that list one by one and ask them if they think Nedd Kareiva and Stop the ACLU should be pleased by the outcome in Indian River. Be very neutral: let them speak for themselves. If they respond, then email them to ask if you can publish their response or if they'd like to take a public position on the matter. If they won't you can still justifiable characterize that as a refusal to comment. Do, there would be three groups - "supports", "doesn't support", and "refuses to comment".

Then, just list the blog you've contacted - and the response or not - on this diary. Later on, those can be collated and published in an organized form.

If the blog in question allows comments, ask directly on the blog. I you get one, reply and include a link to one of the blogs pieces I've mentioned that cover this story.

The point is to get each oe of the 200 bloggers aligned under Stop The ACLU to take a position or at least refuse to comment.

This is a simple shaming project but - as we've seen in the case of the recent incident involving the speaker of the Indiana House, Brian Bosma, who was moved by the Internet and also the goodness of his heart to make an apology to Jewish groups in Indiana [ kudos to dhonig of dKos for the legendary cartoon ] - shaming really, really does work. So if you are so moved, shame away !

UPDATE : I've started a list of "Stop The ACLU" supporters I've contacted, towards the bottom of this thread.

Originally posted to Troutfishing on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:45 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar : let's make this 'Brian Bosma ll' ! (174+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kimberley, wozzle, Yosef 52, pine, Radiowalla, comrade, MadRuth, Mikey, eleming, lipris, 2pt5cats, hind, Nina Katarina, Powered Grace, saraswati, melvynny, ScientistMom in NY, Debby, Shockwave, billlaurelMD, meg, democat, Jay C, maddercow, markd, OLinda, John Campanelli, jcwabbit, ManfromMiddletown, DFWmom, varro, theran, shpilk, Walt starr, Ahianne, exNYinTX, silence, kissfan, shermanesq, upnatom65, EvieCZ, Miss Devore, bronte17, rktect, mentaldebris, Shadan7, sfgb, rhp, Bardy, als10, Glic, Brother Maynard, peraspera, Fe, fumie, wader, ammaloy, hhex65, Moody Loner, TexDem, DeadB0y, Last Lemming, ghostofaflea, DEFuning, defluxion10, papercut, 4jkb4ia, walkshills, bwintx, deep6, zerelda, mungley, nycdemocrat, OrangeClouds115, kd texan, eve, Krum, Marc in KS, Timroff, sawgrass727, fiddly bits, Fabian, lcs, Bluesee, Treg, bellevie, Tami B, Elise, Five of Diamonds, docangel, lale, Chinton, blockbuster, PBen, Geronimo, Alice Venturi, panicbean, clammyc, Sinister Rae, crimsonscare, Valtin, terrypinder, kaye, trinityfly, foxklub, Bouwerie Boy, maisie, Viceroy, Ex Con, eyama, concerned, Karmafish, ladybug53, annefrank, illyia, paxpdx, hgunited, FindingMyVoice, LivesInAShoe, Circle, word is bond, Alabama Bill, Cory Bantic, Spathiphyllum, hcc in VA, Sister Havana, Cletus from Canuckistan, taracar, jimraff, FrankFrink, esquimaux, trashablanca, Sanuk, methodishca, Nightprowlkitty, Do Tell, tommymet, Tux the Penguin, djwohls, Capn Guts, 4thepeople, Ellicatt, smokeymonkey, compbear, XStryker, dennisl, greenearth, zigeunerweisen, vome minnesota, Lashe, condoleaser, Iranaqamuk, plf515, Dagoril, Turbonerd, doingbusinessas, righteousbabe, fiddlingnero, Dreaming of Better Days, pkbarbiedoll, 20shadesofviolet, Ascanius, BeerNotWar, BentLiberal, Buckeye Hamburger, Susan Something, dotsright, Haningchadus14, Cat Whisperer, blue armadillo, jhecht, WryCynic, Lady Sybil, adamschloss

    This story needs legs. Please help to give it some.

    •  There is nothing wrong... (16+ / 0-)

      with voluntary prayer in school.  Kids should be allowed to pray all they want, as long as it's not disruptive.  Forcing them to abstain from prayer would infringe on their First Ammendment rights.

      The problem here is the prayer is institutionalized, or at least the prejudice is.

      You think you've got it tough. Try being a liberal in the military.

      by filmgeek83 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:11:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  note the quotes (37+ / 0-)

        It's called voluntary prayer because you don't have to say it.  That's the case they so often make - hey, we're not forcing anyone to pray, we're just setting aside a time when all the kids can stand up and say a prayer.  If you don't want to pray, don't.

        But everyone knows who's not praying, and they get told to take off the yarmulke.

        Extracurricular prayer is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

        Throw the bums out!

        by Mikey on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:15:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Allowing vs. institutionalizing (11+ / 0-)

        I'm not sure there's ever been a case where kids weren't allowed to pray if they did so without being disruptive (which I would define as not drawing anyone else's attention). That would be a violation of the First Amendment.

        Prayer is institutionalized when it's public, or when time is set aside for it explicitly or implicitly. That's also a violation of the First Amendment.

        If prayer is between the person praying and the divinity prayed to, this shouldn't create any problems.

        •  What The Bible Says (19+ / 0-)

          "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets that they may be seen of men.  Verily, I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly..."

          Matthew 6:5-6


          If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
          Oscar Wilde

          by karateexplosions on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:06:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  An illuminating quote (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            G2geek

            that shows how hard it is for America, with its predominantly Christian heritage, to confront these issues without preconceptions.

            This passage teaches us that private prayer is rewarded. But if you take it literally, the hypocrites are praying in the synagogues (Jews) and in the streets (Muslims). You know and I know there were no churches or Muslims when these words were said, but do the folks on the Indian River school board? They rode their hypocrites out of town.

          •  oh, haven't you heard. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greenearth

            I've brought up that passage quite a few times, but the apologists inform me that I just don't get it.  You see, those words from the notorious Jesus are just meant to be instructions to people of that day - the Jews.  They don't apply to people of today and apparently, it's not meant to be taken literally.  No, I can't explain in any way how direct , concrete instructions are just to be taken figuratively and not applied, but that's their excuse that they use to ignore it.

            -5.75, -4.51 "While my eyes go looking for flying saucers in the sky." - Caetano Veloso

            by lostinbrasil on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 12:56:23 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  as long as there are tests (12+ / 0-)

        there will be prayers in schools.

        "YeeHaw!" is not a foreign policy.

        by annefrank on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:04:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  If God is omniscient and omnipotent (9+ / 0-)

        what's the significance of prayer, anyway?  He can read your mind.  You don't need to set aside time to pray.  You can think all the same thoughts in between doing multiplication tables or reading Whitman and he'll know what's going on with you.  So why does time need to be set aside at all, let alone during a taxpayer funded school day?  If there are meditation-like benefits for the individual, I find it hard to believe any real inner calm could be achieved during 3 minutes of silence.

        Progressivism: be on the right side of history.

        by deep6 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:07:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Prayer works. (3+ / 0-)

          There's really no point in your asking "If God is omniscient and omnipotent [then] what's the significance of prayer?"  Many, many people believe that prayer works, and that the relationship of prayer to God is one of mutuality between God and the person who prays.  As such, God's omniscience and omnipotence don't constitute the entirety of the action of prayer, which is a dialogue between beloveds.  It would be the exact same thing as asking ...if two people are married and they know each other, then why do they talk to each other?  It's because they love each other that they talk to one another.

          The point that the diarist is making is not that people shouldn't pray ...certainly, Jews, the elder brothers of Christians, taught Christians how to pray in the first place and they (the Jews) did and do pray very much and very well.  The point the diarist is making is that we ought to oppose vigorously any attempt to intimidate people on the basis of their religious views, whether, and whatever, they believe.  Just be aware, though, that agnostic/atheist intolerance is no more acceptable than any other source of intolerance.  To say that there's "no need to set aside time to pray" is just ignorance or intolerance.  Do, by all means, set aside time for the ones you love ...and the One you love.  Just don't make it state-sponsored time.

          •  President Kennedy, when asked about his position (11+ / 0-)

            on school prayer, stated something to the effect that he didn't understand why the practice of one's religion had to be done at a public school, that surely praying at home or in the privacy of one's own thoughts should suffice.  I am so disappointed when people talk about the "right" of setting up time in a public school for such purposes.  It is obviously confrontational to those who don't want to.  We all know why we are in school.  Prayer is not one of those reasons.  

          •  I'm sorry. How does prayer 'work'? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            deep6, dsteele2, tommymet

            A study (Study cast doubt on medicinal value of prayer)  from last year doesn't reflect that.

            And there was another study from just a few weeks ago, which I can't find, that people who actually did know that others were praying for them were sicker causing researchers to posit that they may have been more worried and feeling obligated to fulfill the wishes of those praying for them.

            Of course, you can find a slew of fraudulent studies conducted by emotionally invested people seeking to prove their religious convictions online, but the ones I mentioned above have actual scientific criteria.

            Anyway, I never felt threatened that people pray at school.  As long as it's not conducted by the school with a captive audience.

            -5.75, -4.51 "While my eyes go looking for flying saucers in the sky." - Caetano Veloso

            by lostinbrasil on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:12:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How does talking to your beloved work for you? (0+ / 0-)

              Does it cure cancer?  Or is "healing" perhaps not the same thing as "cure."

              I don't want to go too far off-topic, because the whole point of this diary is respect for people of differing religious sensibilities.

              I'll just note, though that anybody who seriously prays can readily come up with a gazillion anecdotes attesting to the efficacy of prayer ...not one of which would convince the incredulous, and not one of which would surprise the faith-filled.  

              That's just the way it is.

              •  Well, I think there's a difference between (0+ / 0-)

                the psychological effect of love and optimism and the supernatural.

                If you're only talking about a personal sense of solace or the positive effects of meditation, then I would definitely say that the average person would be left with a very different conclusion by the declaration "Prayer works!"

                No hard feelings, just would have been nice to hear from where such convictions about its incontestability come.  Just a teensy bit of evidence.

                I wonder myself about some prayers I've made that have seemed to come true, but then remember all the prayers I have made that don't seem to have come true and those of all the others whom have prayed only to have it not work out as they had wished.  I'm not sure about the track record of the magic.

                -5.75, -4.51 "While my eyes go looking for flying saucers in the sky." - Caetano Veloso

                by lostinbrasil on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 03:33:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  no, it's incredulity (0+ / 0-)

            For there to be evidence that prayer works, there must be evidence that either a) there is a God who grants wishes; or b) the power of human thought can change physical reality and/or future events.  As there is no body of evidence upon which points a or be can be theorized to be true, the idea that prayer works, however much someone wants to believe it does, is nonsense.  But respect for differing religious beliefs is not the point of this diary.  One does not have to respect religion or the practice of it in order to abide by constitutional guarantees of religious freedom.  The prayer in school issue, however, as I think many of us can agree, has little to do with free exercise and more to do with indoctrination and marginalization of religious or non-religious minorities.

            Progressivism: be on the right side of history.

            by deep6 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 03:56:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's Impossible to Force Anyone to Abstain (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wu ming, LivesInAShoe, greenearth

        from Christian prayer.

        Because by command of Christ, prayer is always to be unobserved.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 12:17:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, not unobserved! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wystler

          Don't misunderstand the meaning of the teaching that one should go into one's closet (private space) to pray.  After all, the same Christ taught that "whenever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them."  The point isn't that prayer be hidden, although there certainly is a life hidden in God.  The point is that prayer be genuine.  

          Praying in order to be seen is wrong because it isn't prayer.  That kind of 'prayer' does not have God as its audience.  The purported dialogue is taking place between the person miming prayer and his/her admirers. That kind of mimed prayer is simply a narcissist's mirror, and is the very opposite from the conversation of a person who, in all humility, knows who s/he is before God.  True prayer reflects the image of God in the person praying -- and results in the deep reflected reflection of two mirrors aimed at each other, an infinity of regard and mutuality.

          Mimed prayer, on the other hand, reflects only the image of the praying person -- the 'mirror,' lacking the image of God, is empty.

    •  I had 'voluntary' prayer (17+ / 0-)

      Back in the 4th grade I had a teacher who used to proselytize fairly regularly and we always had a "prayer time". She never prayed aloud and always made sure to say something like "you can sit quietly if you don't feel like praying" but it was clear what was going on.

      "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

      by Jett on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:20:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When I was a kid in Glendale, CA (18+ / 0-)

        They used to take all the kids off campus to go to church services on Friday mornings -- a way to get around prayer on campus, perhaps, as this was circa 1963-64.

        Because I was the only Jewish kid there, I was left all alone sitting at my desk for about 90 minutes each week, the butt of kids' jokes, and feeling very odd. One kid, one of the few Roman Catholics at this largely Protestant school, told me that it was certain that I was going to hell because I had killed Jesus Christ (which was news to me I had killed anyone!). Of course, I wasn't afraid of hell, but the whole thing added to the strangeness and alienation.

        One day, the teacher came and told me that I could go to church with the Catholics, if I wanted -- the Protestants being perhaps a little too much closer to God to soil them with the presence of some little boy Jew.

        --- Good luck with this story, and thanks for the work.

        "Existence is a flame which constantly melts and recasts our theories." -- R.D. Laing

        by Valtin on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:43:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  blast from the past! (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jett, DeadB0y, TiaRachel, Valtin

          I grew up in So. Cal, too, around the same time and forgot that aspect of "public" education as well as what kids would say.  

          Your post reminded me of the "Place in France" song some kids sang: "the dance they do was written by a Jew, but the Jew couldn't dance, so they kicked him in the pants...." I didn't understand that taunt at the time(my family was kinda sorta agnostic protestant/catholic).  I also remember teacher remarks about latino and native american kids. It's weird, because Mexican History (as it relates to California) and the Holocaust were a part of the curriculum at the time.

          Blogatha! The political, the personal. Not necessarily in that order.

          by ksh01 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:58:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  For the life of me (20+ / 0-)

    I can not figure out what so many Jews and Catholics are doing in bed with Protestant fundamentalists.

    If you want something other than the obvious to happen - you've got to do something other than the obvious...Douglas Adams

    by trillian on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:44:33 AM PDT

    •  Huh? n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Got 0?
      1. No 9/11 CT nonsense please
      2. Godwin's Law
      3. How is this supposed to help Democrats get elected in November?

      by XStryker on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:04:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  See (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hind, greenskeeper, LivesInAShoe

        Lieberman, Joseph and Alito, Samuel for example.  

        Now, it's a bit much to tie this directly to the current administration, but it is clearly fostered and promoted by the Republican party.  I doubt Karl Rove wants Jews run out of town, but it doesn't particularly bother him if it delivers the votes.  To profess any loyalty to this Republican party is to accept, in a large way, this kind of behavior.

        Catholics are the next step after Jews, as far as I can tell.  They're no more 'real Christians' than the Mormons.  See Bob Jones University.

        Throw the bums out!

        by Mikey on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:18:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's Called Abrahamic Bigotry (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          white blitz, Bluesee, LivesInAShoe

          And it's the basis of all appeals to "our shared Judeo-Christian Culture."

        •  It's a fair question (30+ / 0-)

          And if you read the Jewish magazines in this country you can see the heartrending that is going on.

          First off, the Jewish bloc is currently about 75/25 Democrat.  Jews vote Democratic for many reasons - caring for the community is very big in the faith.  Even when Jews were dirt poor (which was most of the time) there was almost always someone in the Jewish community poorer than any given family, and charity was very big.  (Note - Jews were typically very poor in Europe - you may have heard that they were bankers, and that was true because they were allowed to charge interest unlike Christians.  However, Jews were not allowed to foreclose, so banking wasn't but so profitable).  If you look at Israel it's a left-leaning country - the Kibbutzim are socialist communes, the culture is largely western european (which is pretty liberal compared to the US) and if it weren't for the Palestinian situation I doubt the right-wing would ever win an election.  Third, on the big issues of the day, Jews tend to identify with the Democratic party - Social Security, Medicare (caring for the less fortunate), Labor Unions (rights of the lower classes), and then religious issues like prayer in public schools, etc.

          However - there is one big issue where the left wing and the Jews don't get along so well - and that's the issue of what to do with Israel.  There was a recommended diary with 300+ comments and the posters were pretty evenly divided between supporting/opposing Israel.  Anti-Israel comments make Jews, in general, uncomfortable.  While Jews see as plain as day the Arab world failing to help the Palestinians and keeping them as refugees in order to pressure Israel - which counters what has happened with almost every other refugee population in modern times - Anti-Israel folks just look at the plight of the Palestinians, say that they were entitled to the land, and want Israel to give it back/go away/whatever.  Yes, I'm vastly oversimplifying but fill in the normal arguments against Israel and it will make sense.

          The right-wing in this country is 100% pro-Israel - however there's a problem even in that.  The evangelicals support Israel because the Jews are supposed to take over, and then the rapture will come - Jews will either convert to Christianity or go to hell.  So even the people who back us on the short-term political issue still believe that God will turn his back on us unless we change who we are.  

          For some portion of the population - Israel is the #1 voting issue - no different than people who won't support Casey in PA because he's anti-abortion, or people who won't support a Democrat who supports the hate gay amendment, or whatever.  

          Then (and this is personal bias) - I think that there are some Jews who got wealthy and let it go to their heads and forgot their roots, and vote for Republicans for personal tax cuts.  Those folks are the ones who truly bother me - you've been well off for a generation or two and suddenly forget where you came from?  (This applies to many non-Jews too - I've seen this too often - people get rich and suddenly "become Republican" because of the estate tax or some such).

          But even with those, it's still 75/25 Democrat.  Jews are one of the more reliable voting blocks for Democrats - and although our numbers are small we have very high voter participation rates and we donate.  The donations are a problem for some who are opposed to Israel because there is a feeling that the Democratic party apparatus won't oppose Israel for fear of alienating the Jews - similar to how the Republicans are totally backwards on Cuba because the Cuban population (also small but high-participation) is very Republican.  Shrug.  I say it's listening to your constituents - if a candidate pissed off the netroots and we stopped giving that might hurt, no?  But anyway, this is too long a comment as it is.

          -Fred

          Democrats *do* have a plan for Social Security - it's called Social Security. -- Ed Schultz
          -3.13 -6.05

          by FredFred on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:41:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Jews and Charity (9+ / 0-)

            Two points about Jews and "Charity" --

            • I was taught in Hebrew School that the word in the old testament that is usually translated as "charity" would be more accurately translated as "justice".
            • I also learned a story, I believe it was about Rabbi ben Hillel, where a follower tried to ask a question: "There are two men, and one gives to charity and the other doesn't...". The Rabbi interrupted and said, "No, here you have one man and an animal".
            •  More on Jews and charity (14+ / 0-)

              Man is worthy of being called man only if he is charitable.

              and a story

              A guy dies and is standing by the pearly gates.  The angel asks why he should be let into heaven.

              "Well, I prayed every day.  I kept kosher.  I observed the sabbath.....

              God interrupts.

              "Wait a minute.  Down on Earth, you became wealthy, didn't you?"

              "well, um, yes"

              "Did you ever give money to charity?"

              the guy is stumped.  Thinks and thinks.  Finally

              "yes!  Once I gave 10 cents to a blind man on the street"

              God gives the angel a dime and says

              "Give this fellow his dime back, and tell him to go to hell".

              And to close, a famous quote from Hillel

              If I am not for myself, who is for me?
              If I am for myself alone, what am I?
              If not now, when?

              great comment fredfred

              Republicans worry about our souls and their bellies. Democrats worry about their souls and our bellies

              by plf515 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:48:03 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  FredFred, well said. n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            XStryker
          •  yes, lots of Jewish money in politics (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            XStryker

            last I heard, something like 50% of Democratic money, and 20% of Republican money, comes from Jewish donors.

            somehow I imagine most of that Republican-bound money came from a certain Abramoff... what an embarrassment to the tribe. For shame.

            "We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home." -Edward R. Murrow

            by adamschloss on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:25:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think it suprises people how divided we are (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            shpilk, TiaRachel, Los Diablo, XStryker

            over Israel.  I've known quite a few people that automatically assume that I can't see the Palestinian point of view/am a defender of Israel's actions based on my being Jewish, but what's worse are those who make comments against the Jews to me because they don't yet know I'm Jewish. :)

            One thing though that I've had a hard time finding is people in America that have lived in Israel and don't have very harsh feelings towards the Palestinians.

            Sometimes people come around though once they've been in the states for a few years, so it seems.

            It's been commented on a lot, the difference between Israeli Jews and American Jews.  A complexity that very few people acknowledge exists.

            -5.75, -4.51 "While my eyes go looking for flying saucers in the sky." - Caetano Veloso

            by lostinbrasil on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:32:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The Whacked Religious Right and Theocons (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              XStryker

              hate the Jewish people and the people from Palestine.   They also seem to be good at manipulating both sides when it is to their advantage. I have no idea how any Jew or Muslim can align themselves with those crazies.

      •  Rove & Co. have succeeded in dividing Jews (0+ / 0-)

        in terms of allegiance.  Those who are fervently "Israel above all else" will vote with Republicans, who have been in complete agreement on Israeli use of force/violence to "maintain security" within and around their borders.  All previous US Presidents and their administrations have worked to bring opposing groups to the bargaining table to make a peaceful pact.  

        So orthodox, hasidic, and neoconservative Jews all vote R.  I have no idea if these Jews understand the ulterior motives of the Christianists.

        Without Net Neutrality, We (dKos) are history. Thank Ron Wyden fax (202-228-2717) or phone (202-224-5244) -7.63/-6.41

        by vome minnesota on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:02:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, we'll see about that ! n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  One issue voters (4+ / 0-)

          Every Democratic president has supported Israel's existence and security from attack, as do a large majority of the American people. If Bushco's extreme anti-Palestinian policy has attracted Jewish voters, Rove has been aided and abetted by those on the left who attack not just Israeli policies but Israel's existence as well.

          Plenty of orthodox Jews vote Democratic because they are not one-issue voters and besides, they can see through blatant attempts to pander to their sympathies for Israel. I once lived in an apartment building where Jewish and non-Jewish families got different political flyers slipped under their doors, and believe me everybody noticed and felt disgusted.

          It's important to remember that Rove has found other ways to appeal to some elements of the Jewish community.  Notably, school vouchers and funding for faith-based social work can benefit religious institutions of all denominations. It can become a way of buying votes, and that's another reason to oppose these policies.

    •  Jews for Bush (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debby, Los Diablo, Dagoril

      Oxymoron or just morons.  Throughout history, Jews said,_it won't happen here.  The Spanish Inquisition and Hitler are but 2 instances when Jews incorrectly thought they were accepted.  Bush's theocracy has made the US a new candidate to join this elite group with the assistance of Republican jews and media suck up jews.  Think  Mehlman and Brooks--neither stupid--both idiots.

    •  The very religious Catholics today (5+ / 0-)

      have a LOT in common with fundamentalists - they believe that premarital sex and abortion are both very serious sins, they believe that if you are not their religion you are going to hell, they believe that gay sex is a mortal sin, worthy of hell. They care more about the sexual sins than they care about the sins of greed and ignoring your neighbor in need.

      The "new" Catholic Church wears the face of Bill Donohue, who is a hate-monger and a bigot. The transcript is from Scarborough, talking about "The Passion of Christ" movie.

      WILLIAM DONAHUE, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC LEAGUE:  I spoke to Mel a couple of weeks ago about this.  And I don‘t think it really matters a whole lot to him.  It certainly doesn‘t matter to me.  We‘ve already won.

      Who really cares what Hollywood thinks?  All these hacks come out there.  Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular.  It‘s not a secret, OK?  And I‘m not afraid to say it.  That‘s why they hate this movie.  It‘s about Jesus Christ, and it‘s about truth.  It‘s about the messiah.

      Hollywood likes anal sex.  They like to see the public square without nativity scenes.  I like families.  I like children.  They like abortions.  I believe in traditional values and restraint.  They believe in libertinism.  We have nothing in common.  But you know what?  The culture war has been ongoing for a long time.  Their side has lost.

      You have got secular Jews.  You have got embittered ex-Catholics, including a lot of ex-Catholic priests who hate the Catholic Church, wacko Protestants in the same group, and these people are in the margins.  Frankly, Michael Moore represents a cult movie.  Mel Gibson represents the mainstream of America.  

      Just like the fundies.

      My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

      by adigal on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:11:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Too many overtly religious Catholics, yes (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        libnewsie, Fabian, docangel

        But many devoted Catholics are appalled by Donahue and his ilk.  Do not feed on some of your staunchest allies.  Check out the catholic workers for instance.

        •  I know there are progressive Catholics (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fabian, Bhishma

          out there somewhere, but here in liberal NY, I just cannot find them. Seriously.

          My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

          by adigal on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:32:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Please stop equating progressive Catholics (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thea lake, libnewsie, docangel

            with bigots. The "new" Catholic Church, whatever the heck that is, certainly isn't Bill Donohue.  

            Lots of non-Catholics weren't listening to to Pope John Paul II; I don't fault you for it --- he wasn't your Pope --- but those who were paying attention knew him to be a staunch defender of the poor, and a strong advocate for peace.  There's lots to disagree about within these parameters ...Pope JPII was hostile to liberation theology, for example.  But I don't believe JPII had a bigoted bone in his body.

            And sure, the Church has a deeply neurotic streak about sex and gender, and they just plain don't get it about gays (Although, if they'd simply follow Christ to the letter they wouldn't have to 'get it;' the 'getting it' would take care of itself in short order).  But the Church also has a deep yearning for people to love one another without the materialism -- the propensity to treat sexuality as a species of commerce -- that characterizes an awful lof of sexual life.

            Your characterization of Catholics as bigots rubs progressives the wrong way in exactly the same way as you would object if people characterized all Democrats as Southern Dixiecrats.  Same name, maybe, but a whole 'nother creature altogether.

            •  I am a Catholic. I went to Catholic school for 13 (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wozzle, jcwabbit, lunacat, TiaRachel

              years.  I taught at Catholic school for 4 years.  You do not need to tell me about what the Catholic church used to be like.  But I did not hear any outcry when a number of bishops said that to vote for John Kerry is a confessionable sin because he is pro-choice.  I don't hear any other Catholic voices out there to compete with Bill Donohue.  I don't hear any of my friends, who all go to Mass every week and are the lectors and who serve Communion, do anything but bash gays and abortions.

              I think the Catholic church has been hijacked by its extreme elements.  Now, if you could find me ONE Catholic Church within 1/2 hour of Saratoga Springs which openly welcomes gays, speaks out against war, does not tell women they are going to hell for using birth control or having an abortion, I would truly welcome the information.  Because I have been looking for two years and have not found one. So any info would be greatly appreciated because I am NOT having my kids confirmed into the bigotry and hatred I see in all of the Catholic churches around me.

              My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

              by adigal on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 12:39:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  My only suggestion (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                libnewsie

                is that if you're near Saratoga Springs, you must be near the college there.  Campus ministries are often much more progressive than old-neighborhood parishes, and especially at a woman's college like Skidmore, I'm betting you'll find Catholics aplenty who don't buy into the Opus Dei-fication of the Catholic Church!

                It's worth it for your kids to be confirmed because of the worth of the sacrament itself ...something very real happens to people who make this commitment!

      •  Catholics (0+ / 0-)

        When I lived in New Orleans, I met quite a few fundementalist Catholics.  I was disappointed.  There seemed to be a huge hypocritical line between their obvious religiousity and how they actually lived their lifes.  Extreme greed and materialism struck me in particular.  Authoritarism, no questions, seemed very acceptable as well.

        Of course, not all Catholics but I certainly met a fair number just as I described.

    •  I don't get it either (0+ / 0-)

      It's a point that I don't understand either, Trillian.  The fundies clearly don't respect Jews, and it's a shame that some religious minorities have been willing to go along with the Republican charade.

      The exact causes this strange alliance have been discussed elsewhere, but I'd like to offer a few historical footnotes, since I've studied this in graduate school:

      1. The fundamentalists who you speak of aren't even legitimate Protestants, at least in the sense of Luther's theology (the first major Protestant religious movement in Europe). Instead, it's a bunch of wacko splinter groups intent on Biblical literalism and producing their own twisted version of "heaven on earth." That's most definitely not what most of the early European reformation leaders intended. I think progressive Christians could do more to point out how fringe some of the fundamentalist's beliefs are.
      1. For most of American history, Catholics and Jews did not vote Republican. But because of the upward mobility of many ethnic white Catholics and the culture wars that began in the 1970s, shady Republicans have been able to draw more religious minorities into their camps with deceptive rhetoric.
      •  25% of Jews is not a lot (0+ / 0-)

        We still overwhelmingly vote Democratic. The only way the GOP has any chance of getting more than that is if they reject the Christian fundamentalists. Somewhat moderate Republicans could draw more Jewish votes (and while I'm at it, shame on Arlen Specter and Norm Coleman for not having the chutzpah to buck the GOP leadership more often).

        Got 0?
        1. No 9/11 CT nonsense please
        2. Godwin's Law
        3. How is this supposed to help Democrats get elected in November?

        by XStryker on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:45:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  More Coverage (11+ / 0-)

    Patriotboy's done some good work here:
    http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/...

    Throw the bums out!

    by Mikey on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:45:19 AM PDT

  •  This is so frightening (35+ / 0-)
    I hardly know how to react. That Jewish family should sue this school board and this town out of existence. I'm sure Ohio will be next especially if by some weird fluke (or election hanky-panky) Ken "Katherine Harris" Blackwell becomes our next governor. The thing that really disgusts me is how these people can remotely call themselves "Chrisitans." Based on the teachings of Jesus, they simply aren't.
    •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rtess

      That is probably one of my biggest frustrations: When I see people preaching the teachings of Jesus while at the same time discriminating and excluding others.

      It's pretty frustrating, but not as bad as when wingnut conservative males decide to discuss the reproductive rights of all women in the country.

    •  What's just as frightening are those 'liberals' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TiaRachel

      who see nothing wrong with school prayer. Something has gotten lost in the translation, methinks.

  •  The General is on the case (8+ / 0-)

    "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition" - Monty Python

    by MadRuth on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:47:45 AM PDT

  •  This isn't breaking... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sobermom, stevej, essexgreen, Scientician

    You diaried on this previously. This is an ongoing story that is being pretty well covered in the MSM and in the blogs.

    Why all the hubbub, bub?

    I'm not saying the story is trivial, but putting a BREAKING title on this is a little like crying wolf.

    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it -- GB Shaw

    by kmiddle on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:48:44 AM PDT

  •  I'm not exactly sure that's why O'Hair (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Geenius at Wrok

    disappeared. On one of those crime shows (which BTW I love to watch) it's surmised that she was murdered by someone who was embezzeling money from her organization. So maybe that a cover up or maybe it's not. There are some nutty folks out there.

    •  Well (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      fiddly bits, Fabian

      Presumably, the threat-maker didn't know that.  And that was someone who was on the school board (previously, but still!)  Hardly a lone nutcase.

      Throw the bums out!

      by Mikey on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:54:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  More to the Point (8+ / 0-)

      ....the reference to Madelyn Murray O'Hare makes it plain that the bigotry involved here is broad-based bigotry toward all non-Christians, not solely Jews.

      Framing the issue as "anti-Semitism" amounts to a fundamental mis-statement of the problem, however well-intentioned or deeply felt the individuals doing so may be.

      •  Specially 'godless atheists' (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenskeeper

        If these Christianists don't get checked we will all end up in exile or "work" camps.

        Dailykos.com; an oasis of truth. -1.75 -7.23

        by Shockwave on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:58:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Missing the point (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TiaRachel, hfjai

        The folks in Delaware may be bigotted toward all non-Christians, but the references to yarmulkes and Christ-killing make it plain that bigotry towards Jews is the specific situation here.

        Why is it so hard for you to recognize such clear expressions of anti-Semitism that you repeatedly make this same argument?

        Kossites should be able to agree on condemning every form of ethnic, racial, religious, sexual and other biases.

        •  You Are The One Missing The Point (0+ / 0-)

          It's not all about the Jews.

          It's all about the First Amendment and the Constitution.

          But that's a secondary issue as far as you're concerned. And that's an issue for me.

          •  Please don't presume (6+ / 0-)

            to tell me what is primary or secondary for me. Earlier today I posted this:

            There is but one Hatred but it has many names (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:Hornito, serrano, curmudgiana
            and we should fight hatred in all its manifestations and name all of its names. Hatred of Jews, Muslims, Catholics, mainstream Protestants, atheists, African-Americans, Native Americans, latinos, whites, gays... (the list is too long) should be recognized and opposed by each of us, whichever of these groups we fall into (of if we somehow fall into none).

            by word is bond on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:17:32 AM EDT

            and this

            An attack by them on any of the groups they hate (0 / 0)
            is an attack on all of them, and members of each group need to be concerned (as well as anybody who just cares to save America).

            by word is bond on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 02:48:20 PM EDT

            You chose to focus only on the reference to Madelyn Murray O'Hare, but what happened in Delaware was not limited to that. I'm sure there were as many varieties of bigotry to go around as there were bigots.

            Of course it's about the Constitution and the First Amendment, but it's also about non-governmental action that's not barred by the First Amendment, like private citizens in a meeting room who yell hatred at a 6-year-old kid.

            Elsewhere in this thread there's a report about somebody who rolled the head of a pig into a mosque where people were knelt in prayer. That's not about the Constitution or the First Amendment, it's about a private manifestation of hatred that should be condemned by everyone. I don't know what was going through the mind of the perpetrator, but judging by the action I would say that some part of it was prejudice towards Muslims.

            I hope we can agree that the Indian River story is an expression of intolerance both towards non-Christians in general and towards a Jewish family - as well as another unidentified family - in particular.

            •  I'm Interested In The First Amendment (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lunacat, word is bond

              Otherwise, the best policy is let curable assholes know that they're being assholes, an activity which is  -- get this -- protected by the same First Amendment.

              For the incurable assholes, the best policy is to ignore them.

              Adults yelling at six year olds? Certainly assholes, but mob psychology is a funny thing. Pick a ringleader and tell him to leave the poor kid alone with a body posture that suggests a willingness to take it up a notch if he and his people don't chill the fuck out.

              Adults involved in public religious sartorial displays? Leave them alone.

              Adults rolling pigs heads into a mosque? That should be covered by criminal trespass, creating a nuisance, and incitement to riot.

              The Indian River story is most certainly an expression of intolerance both towards non-Christians in general and towards a Jewish family - as well as another unidentified family - in particular.

              But it is also, more generally, an expression of intolerance of the fundamentally secular basis of our government and our society.

        •  I note your 'Kossites', word is bond, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          word is bond

          and I feel you.  Using the word "Kossacks" in this diary thread feels way, way too weird.  I haven't used Kossacks at all on DKos, that I can remember, because of its historical associations; Kosmopolitans, maybe?

  •  The Surgeon General has determined that religious (17+ / 0-)

    fanatics can be harmful to your health.

    Not to mention your freedom!

    Somehow, the knowledge that we have religious fanatics every bit as violent and bent as the Islamist religious fanatics doesn't surprise me a little bit.

  •  the title as truncated is deceptive (7+ / 0-)

    it suggest the ACLU is somehow terrorizing this family.

  •  Poor kids (8+ / 0-)
    Forced to leave their home because of hatred and bigotry, abandon their friends, their schools.

    I hope they find better friends in Wilmington, in their new life.  Or rather, friends with better parents.  I guess they could hardly find worse.

  •  what a shame (8+ / 0-)

    but a friend who lives in that general area calls the area "Lower Slower Delaware."

    While I think she might be referring to the laid-back way of life down there, this story gives it a whole new spin. I'm not surprised, and I'm still disgusted.

    They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

    by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 08:56:49 AM PDT

    •  I call it simply 'Slower Lower' n/t (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hind, Fabian, terrypinder, LivesInAShoe

      Got 0?
      1. No 9/11 CT nonsense please
      2. Godwin's Law
      3. How is this supposed to help Democrats get elected in November?

      by XStryker on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:06:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  it does not refer to style of life (4+ / 0-)

      i posted about this down below.  it's a term used by residents of northern new castle county (home to the city of wilmington and the university of delaware) to describe that part of the state that lies below the chesapeake and delaware canal, but most especially to refer to sussex county, which aside from the tony oceanside communities (rehoboth, bethany beach, dewey beach) is a lot like the worst parts of arkansas and mississippi.  it's a comment on the IQ of the residents, specifically the rednecks.

      i lived in northern NC county for 6 years and took many a trip down US 13 to visit my wife's family in portsmouth, virginia.  that area of delaware is very rural and backward, and home to various dimwits who fancy themselves KKK members, at least that was the case 11-16 years ago.  

      •  hmm (0+ / 0-)

        my friend in question keeps trying to get me to move down there (she lives near Rehoboth.)

        I can tell that I won't fit in, if they're still that hickish, bigoted, and backwards.

        They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

        by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:19:45 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well, it's an odd area (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          terrypinder, fairfax

          pockets of well-to-do cosmopolitans living near pockets of redneck bumpkin types.  lots of people from all over end up in rehoboth and bethany (dewey beach is pretty much just a summer beach community for yuppies to get drunk and screw), including professionals looking for a calmer style of life than they had in DC, Philly, Baltimore, Wilmington (lots of money to be made in corporate law there).  As I remember, Rehoboth attracted a number of well-off gays, Bethany was more straight/family oriented.  You can definitely find enclaves where you'd be comfortable, and not see much in the way of the element that's persecuting the jewish people in indian river.  a few miles can make a lot of difference.  My last 3 years in delaware, i lived just 5 miles from elkton, maryland, which is a seriously redneck town that even had an active KKK cell (rather small in number, but loud) that liked to stage marches in the area.  people drove beat up old cars with rustoleum paint jobs and confederate flag decals plastered on the bumbers, and spoke with dixie drawls.  where i lived, the people were nothing like that at all.  

          if you could arrange your life to move down there, i'd check it out.  there are redneck types in the hamptons and i'm sure also in the cape cod area.  besides, maybe people like you could keep people like them from behaving like they do.

      •  Yes indeed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hind

        I went through years ago and was horrified at the long line of shanties inhabited by African-Americans along US 13 and the railroad tracks that parallel it.
        Deepest Dixie.

  •  please edit (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wozzle, Mikey, als10, bustacap, XStryker

    and close your blockquote!!

  •  What gets me the most (33+ / 0-)

    ... a raucous crowd that applauded the board's opening prayer and then, when sixth-grader Alexander Dobrich stood up to read a statement, yelled at him "take your yarmulke off!"

    What kind of coward heckles a sixth grader?  What kind asshole bigot crowd gets raucous like that, where there is no public shame to deter such immoral action?

    Mind boggling.

    "I will not rest until every year families gather to spend December 25th together at Osama's homo-abortion-pot-and-commie-jizzporium." - Jon Stewart

    by Slim Tyranny on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:04:33 AM PDT

  •  FASCISM! (15+ / 0-)

    So, apparently non-Christians are not entitled to full citizenship?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

    What about me?

    My mother's ancestory goes right back to the Mayflower. Yup, that's Pilgrim blood in that there pretzel.

    So, does that mean I'm a citizen?

    Well, my father (who is married to my mother) is the son of two Jewish immigrants from Poland. He himself is a secular Jew with a capital Secular.

    My mother isn't exactly Christian either. Both my parents are spiritual, but lean more towards agnosticism, atheism.

    I on the other hand, am a hardened atheist. I am an atheist because that is what I believe. I am hardened because of the Christian right!

    So, am I a full citizen or not?

    Trick question: citizenship can only be bestowed on humans, not pretzels, or (in my case) an overglorified churro.

  •  Bosma II (0+ / 0-)

    Wow!  I thought that would have faded into the past.

    PS- can't see comments here, just titles.

  •  that's located in Sussex County (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Fabian, Monkey In Chief

    by far the most rural and backward of delaware's 3 counties.  it was still slaveholding territory during the civil war (the other two counties had abolished it long before).  once you get away from the oceanside communities like rehoboth and dewey beach, it has a lot in common with the rural deep south, as a drive down US 13 from dover to the maryland state line will demonstrate.  residents of the wilmington area (where i lived for 6 years) refer to it as "lower, slower, delaware."

  •  Let's all send them brown shirts and swastikas (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    4thepeople, BackFromThere

    so they can wear them and show everyone how proud they are for bringing Nazi Germany back to life right here in America.

    •  No (0+ / 0-)

      I think better to send them menorahs and DVDs of "Paper Clips" A great film

      The way to stop the hatred is not with hatred, but with enlightenment.  There are a few who are leaders of the hate-squads, but most are not; not even in such a place as this.  

      Republicans worry about our souls and their bellies. Democrats worry about their souls and our bellies

      by plf515 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:13:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  First they came for the jews (5+ / 0-)

    But I was not jewish so I said nothing .......
    sound familiar?

    Live free or Die versus You woon' worry about civil liberties if your dead.Serious disconnect to the constitution I would say

    by kittycago on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:15:57 AM PDT

  •  'Wehret den Anfängen!' (15+ / 0-)

    "Wehret den Anfängen", which in colloquial English could be translated as "stop it before it starts", is the lesson learned from history in the country where I live, where this sort of open hatred and public humiliation of Jews was once tolerated, socially acceptable, and increasingly popular. In the end, it got so far that an estimated six million Jews were murdered, in a campaign of genocide that made use of a kind of assembly-line technology.

    The time to stop this evil shit is now, before it gets any worse. Those worms at Stop the ACLU, especially Nedd Kareiva, and those people in the Indian Hill School District who taunted and harassed that family, need to be held up for all to see for the filthy Nazi pigs that they are.

    We can use the blogs to draw public attention to this situation, but I think we need to do more than just talk to each other. Anybody got any ideas? What occurs to me is: help the ACLU, help that family, and see to it that there are consequences for the people in that school district. I'm ready to open up my wallet, if it will help someone there that needs it. Anybody know how we can help out?

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    by Buckeye Hamburger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:17:47 AM PDT

  •  I feel compelled to point out (4+ / 0-)

    That Nedd Kareiva, the wingnut director of this wingnut Stop the ACLU group, has posted his personal cell phone number on the group's website.

    Also, on behalf of the people of Chicago, I'd like to apologize that this nutbag hails from the Windy City.  Most of us are actually sane here.  And some of us, including yours truly, are proud ACLU members.

    •  You never have to apologize for the great city (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Debby

      of Chicago. Except for the 2 months (January and February) I did boot camp in Great Lakes, every moment I spent in Chicago was fantastic. Nicest people in America.

  •  If this family was muslim (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, hind, Bouwerie Boy

    would they have even made it out alive?

    truly shocking, and the JC christian email is brilliant.

    •  Here is an example from (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      just two days ago in, I am sorry to say, The Great State of Maine.

      Lewiston has had an influx of refugees from Somolia via Atlanta. From the beginning it has not been handled well, with the mayor calling them names, etc. Maine is about 99%, although Lewiston also is home to a minority population that has endured its share of abuse: those of French acestry.

      17. Ne5

      In chess you may hit a man when he's down -- Irving Chernev, on Przepiorka v. Prokes, Budapest, 1929

      by Spud1 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:56:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hopefully this will be front-paged (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing, Bouwerie Boy

    As it is truly shocking. How can he be "pleased" that these people felt compelled to leave their homes due to religious bigotry? What a smug asshole.

    Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself. --Marcus Aurelius

    by arb on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:27:52 AM PDT

  •  This kind of hate is very very dangerous. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bouwerie Boy, Bhishma

    "In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

    by Five of Diamonds on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:30:25 AM PDT

  •  Off topic (0+ / 0-)

    You seem to be missing a </blockquote> tag...

    The fear-mongering we depict in the film reminds me of President Bush and his guys. -- Mel Gibson

    by John H on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:31:32 AM PDT

  •  wow what a great Christian (3+ / 0-)

    Nedd Karevia is truly the type of Christian we should all inspire to be... full of unconditional love for his fellow man..

  •  Something's wrong with the format (0+ / 0-)

    of this comments section.  It's gray-bordered and I can't read the comments when I click on them.  Sorry about the OT.
    Nonetheless - shame on the assholes at stop the ACLU.  I wouldn't give them the benefit of calling them Americans.

    She was only a moonshiner's daughter, but she always made me liquer - Rev. Billy C. Wirtz

    by gatorcog on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:36:23 AM PDT

  •  Seriously (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Debby, TiaRachel

    I think this country does need a cleansing, a cleansing of stupidity. I demand we put all uneducated, stupid wingnuts in school for 12 hours of the day and force them to actually learn. There's a reason why democrats usually consist of well-educated people.

  •  Troutfishing close your blockquote tag!!!! (0+ / 0-)
  •  I can't open any comments (n/t) (0+ / 0-)
  •  This was diaried earlier today (0+ / 0-)

    under the title, "What is anti-semitism?" It's still on the list.

    All my peeves are my pets.

    by yinn on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:52:40 AM PDT

  •  No closing blockquote tag, comments screwed n/t (0+ / 0-)

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    by Buckeye Hamburger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 09:57:49 AM PDT

  •  Antiquated Interpretations (5+ / 0-)

    of the Constitution...

    First time this liberal has been accused of that.

    Gee, I sure wish Conservative philosophy meant anything other than "I want what I want right NOW (waaaahhhh!!!), and any opinion other than mine is unholy and worthy of death, as long as I don't have to do the killing."

    But it doesn't. And of course, as Swift implied, you can't reason racist Theocrats out of opinions they didn't reason themselves into.

  •  just as bad (0+ / 0-)

    HERE'S MY PROPOSAL : Simple Shaming.

    shaming is very harmful to both who does it and who is the target. maybe a short term advance but then it comes back on you.

    He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. B.Franklin

    by leftout on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:32:37 AM PDT

  •  Underlying hate always finds scapegoats. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bouwerie Boy, Bhishma

    Two families, apparently, were victimized, however one is jewish, and the other remains anonymous. I'm just asking, but if these nutcases are publishing personal information about these plaintiffs, how does one family remain anonymous? Or are they anonymous because they are not as big of a target for hate due to the fact (assumed) that they do not stand out by being gay, of colur, or jewish?

    Unfortunately, ths is bigotry in action, and says less about one's spiritual life than the self-hatred that is transferred upon a convenient scapegoat. In this case, the jewish family. Its so sickening.

    "He's blessed who visits this Earth in times of trial. -Fedor Tyutchev

    by Krum on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:35:14 AM PDT

    •  from what i read (0+ / 0-)

      they dont know who the second family is yet, but would publish if they got the chance.

      They're not just a number, Tony Snow.

      by terrypinder on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:37:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's what I thought (4+ / 0-)

        My point is that the publishng of names and contact information seems a be a new ploy from the far right, as it was in the recently diaried case of NYT reporters. This is disgusting and frightening.

        My second outrage is that these nutcases so much revel in the fact that they drove a Jewish family from their comunity. Whatever the reason, whether it was over any other community dispute wouldn't matter. In this case, the jew –in other cases it could be the lesbians, muslims, or whatever– it saddens me that people can so easily transfer their unease in life into such bigotted behavior. People without a true spiritual compass, indeed.

        "He's blessed who visits this Earth in times of trial. -Fedor Tyutchev

        by Krum on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 10:54:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  It just keeps getting worse (14+ / 0-)

    Don't think this is an isolated incident. There are at least two, and now probably four, sitting Supreme Court Justices who would allow official state religions, perhaps even including religious tests for public office.  I wrote this before the '04 election (it appeared in the Miami Herald editorial pages).  It is just as important, and little understood, today.  Realize, if your head can wrap around it without exploding, that we are not talking about a few nuts at a Klan rally, but about mainstream intellectual Republican leaders:

    The Establishment of Religion

    The Supreme Court of the United States is on the cusp of significant possible change as Justices retire.  Two Justices are over 70, Justice O'Connor and Justice Ginsburg.  Two are 80 or older, Justice Stevens and Chief Justice Rhenquist.  

    One decision any new Court will need to consider in the next few years is the proper application of the Establishment Clause of the Constitution of the United States.  Presently, the Court has applied that Clause to the States.  However, a new Court might decide otherwise, leading to significant changes in the lives of members of any minority religion.  Such a statement is not mere hyperbole, but is based upon dissenting opinions by two of the Court's youngest, and some would argue most conservative, Justices, Justice Thomas and Justice Scalia.  Justice Scalia has been mentioned by many as a likely replacement in the Chief Justice position should Chief Justice Rehnquist retire.  It is also reasonable to anticipate that such decisions will be before the Court in the near future, as the Court recently agreed to hear Ten Commandments cases out of Kentucky and Texas, something they previously avoided.

    The First Amendment, in relevant part, states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting free exercise thereof...."

    The Fourteenth Amendment, in relevant part, states, "...No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; ...."

    The issue is the meaning of the First Amendment, and its application to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment.  To date, the Court has applied the Establishment Clause through the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibiting the establishment of state religions, particularly in cases related to school prayer, graduation day prayers, and the Pledge of Allegiance.  Justice Thomas and Justice Scalia, in different opinions, have suggested a conclusion that would permit individual States to establish public religions, and to delegate some state authority to churches.

    Lee v. Weisman

    In a dissenting opinion in Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577, 112 S.Ct. 2649, 120 L.Ed.2d 467 (1992), Justice Scalia castigated the majority of the Court for deciding its opinion in a graduation ceremony prayer case on the psychology of coercion rather than on history.  The majority decision found that a graduation prayer was coercive, as students attending graduation were required to stand and either join the prayer or remain silent.  The Court considered psychological evidence that this created a coercive atmosphere violative of the Establishment Clause.  Justice Scalia ridiculed the Court's decision, stating "[a]s its instrument of destruction, the bulldozer of its social engineering, the Court invents a boundless, and boundlessly manipulable, test of psychological coercion...."  He went on to state "interior decorating is a rock-hard science compared to psychology practiced by amateurs.  A few citations of 'research in psychology' that have no particular bearing upon the precise issue here ... cannot disguise the fact that the Court has gone beyond the realm where judges know what they are doing."  

    Having first ridiculed the majority's decision, Justice Scalia turned next to the Establishment Clause.  "The Establishment Clause," he wrote, "was adopted to prohibit such an establishment of religion at the federal level (and to protect state establishments of religion from federal interference)."  The import of the last statement might well be hidden by its location in a parenthetical statement, but it can not be underestimated, for it is the heart of Justice Scalia's opinion.  His final position is that States are free to establish official religions.  Further, he would only limit such establishment to prohibit 'actual coercion,' "acts backed by threat of penalty" by the State government.   In other words, short of statutory punishment, such as imprisonment or fine, a State could establish an official religion, and delegate to it official state functions.  

    Justice Scalia went on, rejecting even Jesus' admonition against public prayer,  arguing on behalf of public and institutional prayer.  He wrote "[c]hurch and state would not be such a difficult subject if religion were, as the Court apparently thinks it to be, some purely personal avocation that can be indulged, entirely in secret, like pornography, in the privacy of one's own room.  For most believers it is not that, and has never been.  Religious men and women of almost all denominations have felt it necessary to acknowledge and beseech the blessing of God as a people, and not just as individuals...."  While, on its face, this argument has validity, combined with the establishment of an official State religion it legitimizes public devotion, not at individual churches or synagogues, but at public institutions and events.

    Elk Grove

    Justice Thomas built on Justice Scalia's Lee dissenting opinion in his own dissent in Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, No. 02-1624. Argued March 24, 2004--Decided June 14, 2004, the recent Pledge of Allegiance "Under God" case.   He introduced his opinion stating "I would take this opportunity to begin the process of rethinking the Establishment Clause."  He wrote that he accepted the Free Exercise Clause as applied against the States through the Fourteenth Amendment, but "the Establishment Clause is another matter," and "it makes little sense to incorporate the Establishment Clause."  Justice Thomas opined that the Establishment Clause protects only the States, and not individual rights.  "[T]he Establishment Clause," he wrote, "is best understood as a federalism provision--it protects state establishments from federal interference but does not protect any individual rights."

    Justice Thomas went on to discuss exactly what he meant by "state establishments," describing official endorsement of a particular religion throughout State governmental authority.  He began where Justice Scalia left off, discussing legal coercion, and finding (inconsistently with his thesis, that the Establishment Clause simply does not apply to States) that coercion through force of law and threat of penalty remained prohibited.  However, he went on to state, there were other ways for a State to establish a religion without coercion.  He wrote "[i]t is also conceivable that a government could 'establish' a religion by imbuing it with governmental authority, ... or by delegating its civic authority to a group chosen according to a religious criterion."  He did not state what authority could be imbued, or what civic authority could be delegated.  However, it is reasonable to anticipate that, at a minimum, such an official establishment could prohibit public employment or contracting by members of other religions.  Other state prerogatives, including marriage, divorce, and even civil courts (many of the American colonies had ecclesiastical courts), could be included.

    This opinion is disturbing for two reasons.  First, it encourages official public endorsement of, and delegation of authority to, an individual religion.  Second, and even more pernicious, the internal illogic hints that Justice Thomas' limitation against coercion is a temporary public sop, promising religion without Inquisition.  However, if his opinion is accepted at face value, the Establishment Clause simply does not apply to states, and therefore contains no limitations.  Individuals might remain protected by the Free Exercise Clause, indeed that might have been Justice Thomas' point, but his opinion as written does not state that.

    •  This is a very important point (6+ / 0-)

      Scalia and Thomas are quite correct that the First Amendment, as originally adopted, only applied to the federal government, rather than the States, and there were indeed established churches in a few states well after adoption of the Bill of Rights.  In fact, NONE of the Bill of Rights originally applied to the States.

      But they seem to ignore the fact that there was this thing called the Civil War, and that it was followed by the adoption of something called the 14th Amendment, which provides in pertinent part, "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

      The "essential" guarantees or the Bill of Rights, including the 1st Amendment, have now been applied to the states by incorporation in the 14th Amendment for more than 75 years, so the Scalia/Thomas position is really an extremely radical one.

      •  You Say That As If... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        4thepeople

        ...Scalia and Thomas wouldn't happily jettison the 14th Amendment too...

      •  Yes, it is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TiaRachel

        but "radical" does not mean "unpopular."  

        Most of the states did have official religions, but they followed the US Constitution and got rid of those clauses in their own constitutions in the decades after 1789.  This, in itself, puts the lie to the "original construction" theory that time should be frozen in 1789.  Instead, the states very quickly followed the federal example.

        But scariest of all, if you look at Thomas' opinion, is the idea that States could have religious tests for public office and public work.  By his reading, you could be barred from running for office if not part of the official denomination.  Not only that, but you could be barred from the benefits of public services as well.  Imagine an America where only Christians can use the public library, or submit bids to service public contracts, or practice professions licensed by the state (no Jewish doctors or lawyers, dentists or accountants).  That, my friends, is the America these people desire.

    •  Thanks for pointing out these scary opinions (0+ / 0-)

      Now I'm wondering what Scalia, Thomas and ?? would do with Art. IV, sec. 4:

      The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government

      having apparently already decided that this guarantee applies to the presidency. (It doesn't violate originalism to capitalize the "r", does it?)

    •  dhonig, great comment. Also...... (0+ / 0-)

      Re "is also conceivable that a government could 'establish' a religion by imbuing it with governmental authority, ... or by delegating its civic authority to a group chosen according to a religious criterion" - that's already in process.

  •  Why can't those want the 'Rapture'... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel, LivesInAShoe

    ...go have their "Rapture" already, like, yesterday, without inflicting it on everybody else, Jew and Gentile alike ? Wish the "Rapture" would just get itself over with already.

  •  These idiots would make Jesus weep (6+ / 0-)

    I wonder if, in the midst of their hate, they ever bother to actually read the New Testament.  Immediately before praying what Christians call the Lord's Prayer, Jesus is quoted as saying the following:

    "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen."

    I wonder whether they ever bothered to read the parable of the Good Samaritan, where a person of the "wrong" ethnic group and the "wrong" faith, who worshipped at the "wrong" place and in the "wrong" manner, was held up as a much better example than those who did all the "right" things, but did them without love for their neighbor.

    I wonder whether they ever read where Jesus said that, other than loving God, there was no commandment more important than loving one's neighbor as oneself.  I wonder whether they ever read in the first letter of John, "If anyone says, 'I love God,' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."

    The people who do this kind of thing, whatever they call themselves, are not anyone that Jesus would ever consider his followers.  In fact, they're the kind of people that he consistently condemned during his ministry.  It's amazing, and discouraging, how people's hatred and fear of that which is different can blind them to even the clearest commands of what they consider their own faith.

    A few months after 9/11, I talked with a Muslim man from South Asia who had been injured by flying debris from the World Trade Center.  I will never forget him saying, "I can't understand how someone could do this in the name of my faith."  When I read this stuff, as a Christian, I think I understand exactly how he felt.

    •  If the Christ manifested Himself today... (0+ / 0-)

      ..methinks He would Himself draw the scorn, attacks, and contumely, of many who call themselves "Christian", and face crucifixion (figuratively) again.

      Dostoevsky pinned this down beautifully in "The Brothers Karamazov", in a chapter entitled "The Grand Inquisitor", if I recall accurately.

  •  Correction (0+ / 0-)

    There are two families which are plantiffs in the lawsuit (The Dobriches and an anonymous family), but only the Dobriches (the Jewish family) left town. The identity of the other family is still anonymous, so presumably they haven't left.

  •  I hit 'send,' (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing

    And forwarded this to two of my Jewish American Princess girlfriends.

    I'm and idiot and maybe i can blame it on a toothache?

    Thank you Lord, for this generous rain and abundant lightning. -8.88 -5.08

    by SecondComing on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:12:06 AM PDT

  •  All the old hateful stereotypes (4+ / 0-)

    Notice that "Stop the ACLU" is also riven by "pro-life" rage. This isn't surprising; it's a twist on the old "blood libel" meme used by antisemites for centuries.

    We shouldn't be surprised that the rise of the Christian Right also revives American antisemitism. Most of the charges it levies against liberals and secular humanists are drawn from the old stereotypes used by antisemites.

  •  But what about Rush? (0+ / 0-)

    If Nedd Kareiva's Stop the ACLU movement succeeds, what happens to Rush Limbaugh's defense team? Wingnuts, think twice! And what about that Jesus' General asswipe? "Heterosexually yours? But yours, nonetheless??? Talk about mixed messages! Let's face it, these pigs are never going to stop hating Jews and anyone else who is different from them. In reality, they do more preying than praying because in the end they are not really Christian.

  •  Thanks for posting this (4+ / 0-)

    I'm stunned by the exchange between Gen. Jesus and Nedd Kareiva. It is extraordinary and truly frightening. It seems to me that the circle of focused oppression is rapidly expanding outwards. First they focused on (came for) the Moslems, then the homosexuals, then the immigrants... and now the Jews? Of course, I'm leaving out the main "group" they're hoping to cleanse out of existence, us "liberals"...

    Wasn't there a strong coalition between hardliner Jews and hardliner Christians? Isn't this insanity more evidence of the fracturing of the Republican coalition? The Radical Right is so embroiled in a feeding freenzy, they are astounding to behold. Their hatred is pathological, a reflection of just how sick American/Christian culture is becoming. Hate destroys, and it's destroying Christianity, eating its own from the inside out. The irony of course, is that those awaiting the rapture, the "true believers" have cast themselves as the Anti-Christ without understanding that they have, which totally makes sense: the Anti-Christ could not BE the Anti-Christ without thinking of itself as the Christ...

    In a time of universal deceit, the simple act of telling the truth is revolutionary--George Orwell

    by Circle on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 11:38:39 AM PDT

  •  calling joe biden (7+ / 0-)

    doesn't delaware have a very prominent senator who harbors presidential aspirations? a good moment for him to show some strong leadership, perhaps?

  •  The new Swiftboaters: (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Elise

    Nedd Kareiva - Ill.

    Coordinators

    Chip Broome -  AL
    Scott Veley - CT
    Charlie Hatch - DE
    John Bowman - GA
    Jason Caston - IL
    Mike Minton - KY
    Ray Merritt - MD
    Melanie Mills - MO (Interim)
    Ron Davis - NJ
    Jessica Joslin - OK
    Evy Lysk - PA
    Francis Vaccarella - TN

    It wouldn't take much to locate the goons home addresses.

    http://www.stoptheaclu.org/...

    •  I'm looking up the AL guy (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise

      damned hypocritical bastards living here in this state...grumbles....

      However, I don't agree with posting their personal info online, so I'm not going to do that.

    •  F-ING HYPOCRITE!!! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TiaRachel, Elise

      Here's what this Broome guy says on his website:

      I am an ordained Minister/Evangelist and I love sharing my faith with others. I do open-Air and pulpit preaching. I train others to Share their faith. I am a Conservative Christian and I am happly married and have a son. People are dying, share your faith........... Attention: NEVER take my word for anything! Get your Bible out, check out my answer against God's Word. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect. 1 Peter 3:15 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11
      (emphasis added)

      I say we start asking him questions about why and how he can condone this type of behavior? It is not Christian behavior to run Jews out of town. I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't say "Blessed are those who persecute others."

      •  more words of wisdom from Chip Broome (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TiaRachel

        ACLU of Alabama Condemns Proposed Bill that Would Band (sic) State Funds For Lesbian and Gay Books

        BIRMINGHAM, AL - The bill proposed by Representative Gerald Allen that would ban books about gay and lesbian people from public libraries is bad public policy, unconstitutional and just plain wrong. If passed, Alabama's libraries would be robbed of works by celebrated authors such as Herman Melville, Tennessee Williams, Willa Cather, Carson McCullers, John Cheever, Alice Walker, James Baldwin, Truman Capote and Gore Vidal, to name a few on what will be a very long list.

        Chip's Comment:

        Who knew that the ACLU would want this?LOL. The ACLU is the enemy of anything decent, moral. I myself have never heard of these guys so who would miss them.
        (emphasis added)

        Well maybe that's his problem. It looks like the only book this guy has ever read is the Bible. Guess he's not much of a critical thinker, huh?

  •  I called Senator Obama's office (7+ / 0-)

    and gave them the link to this story...and I told them to follow all the links within it. I said that I was concerned about his remarks on religion in the public sphere and that this was a great example of why....and that I wanted him to publicly condemn this behavior by "Stop the ACLU"...and help these families.

    I'm getting ready to do your action items as well...

  •  Not real relevant, but.... (0+ / 0-)

    remember these guys?
    Check the blogroll troutfishing provides. They're in it too.....

    And I'd have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.(-8.50\-7.13)

    by kestrel9000 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 12:14:43 PM PDT

  •  wow (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing

    I thought that sort of thing only happened down here below the Mason-Dixon line and the Sweet-Tea line! Then again, I was a teenager before I ever met a Jew here in Alabama.

  •  'Shaming Project' : contact - 'Christ Matters' (0+ / 0-)

    Here's what I wrote - in the comment section, pending

    url :  http://christmatters.blogspot.com/

    "Hi. I know this isn't on topic but it seemed like a faster way to get a message through :

    I'm curious to know to what extent you support the "Stop The ACLU Coalition" in terms of the statement by that group's director that he is "pleased" by the effect his organization had in the Indian River case:

    "Pogrom? I'm not sure I want to call it that. That is not an appropriate term, however, I am pleased that we had an effect in this case. We have others we want to put up on the site to shame them but have not gotten around to it." - Nedd Kareiva

    for the exchange that provoked the statement above, please see:

    http://patriotboy.blogspot.com/...

    Best, Bruce Wilson"

  •  I guess these folks have forgotten (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rioduran, TiaRachel, Bhishma

    that Jesus was a Jew.

  •  Another action (4+ / 0-)

    This reminds me of a story I read about a few years back in a small town in Montana (I think) where some jerks were terrorizing the few Jewish families, throwing bricks thru windows and such.

    The mayor of the town took out an ad in the local paper.  It said

    "NOT IN OUR TOWN"

    and had a paper menorah underneath

    People cut them out and put them in their windows.

    What's the town?
    Does it have a paper?

    Anyone got a menorah?

    Republicans worry about our souls and their bellies. Democrats worry about their souls and our bellies

    by plf515 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:04:56 PM PDT

    •  stories like that in the above diary... (0+ / 0-)

      scare the cr*p out of me.

      Stories like the one you just recounted give me hope. Thank you so much.

      "We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home." -Edward R. Murrow

      by adamschloss on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:34:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Billings (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, shpilk, DH from MD, plf515

      The story is awesome and worth reading or viewing:

      NOT IN OUR TOWN is the inspiring documentary film about the residents of Billings, Montana who responded to an upsurge in hate violence by standing together for a hate-free community. In 1993, hate activities in Billings reached a crescendo. KKK fliers were distributed, the Jewish cemetery was desecrated, the home of a Native American family was painted with swastikas, and a brick was thrown through the window of a six-year-old boy who displayed a Menorah for Hanukkah.

      Rather than resigning itself to the growing climate of hate, the community took a stand. The police chief urged citizens to respond before the violence escalated any further. Religious groups from every denomination sponsored marches and candlelight vigils. The local labor council passed a resolution against racism, anti-Semitism and homophobia. Members of the local Painters Union pitched in to paint over racist graffiti. The local newspaper printed full-page Menorahs that were subsequently displayed in nearly 10,000 homes and businesses. The community made an unmistakable declaration: "Not in Our Town." Since then, no serious acts of hate violence have been reported in Billings.

      There is hope for America when the better instincts of the people are mobilized.

      •  Thanks for the find (0+ / 0-)

        Would it be OK if I used it for a diary tomorrow?

        Republicans worry about our souls and their bellies. Democrats worry about their souls and our bellies

        by plf515 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:35:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm so glad you asked . . . (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          plf515

          . . . because your inquiry led me to your diary today, which was one of the most affecting and effective posts I've ever read here.

          I found the text blockquoted above by doing a Google image search for "Billings menorah". I remembered having seen a photo of a large group of Billings townspeople, with the police chief in front holding a menorah; that photo didn't show up but the PBS website did.

          Since the text comes from PBS, and is probably a short enough excerpt to constitute fair use, I can't see any reason not to use it.

          Did you notice on the NPR page that they have two other documentaries about similar events in other locations?

          Every time I read about a family that's persecuted for moving into the "wrong" neighborhood, I wonder why a few hundred people don't just rush there to support them. Thank you for reminding us about the good people of Billings.

          •  thanks (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            word is bond

            glad you liked my diary - it didn't get much attention that I could see, and it is always nice to get affirmation.

            regarding the menorah, I had forgotten the name of the town, and wasn't entirely sure it was Montana.

            I plan on building on the idea of 'good people' perhaps tomorrow, but certainly soon.  We here spend a lot of time uncovering maggots.  It's necessary.  But it's not enough.  One must also plant grass.

            I am convinced that the vast majority of people in this country are not the sort of evil slime they sometimes seem to be.  Not everyone with a closed mind is that way by choice.  In the movie I wrote about in my diary on the moviePaper clips we see what can happen when people are given a key to open the door with.  But that won't happen if we are busy shouting epithets at them.

            The leaders of the 'movement' are evil.  No question.  Bush. Limbaugh. Coulter, the bozos at stop the ACLU, and all the rest.  Evil.  But not all of the people who vote for them are evil; some are.  But some are simple creatures of habit, making their own way in a difficult world, with (often) little time or energy to consider changing their views.  

            We need to expose the views.  But we also need to show them alternatives.  And people don't listen too well when you're yelling at them.

            (In case it's not obvious, none of the above is directed at any specific kog (given what's going on, kossack seems wrong - my grandparents were likely raped by kossacks).  It's not even a criticism of dailykos.   It's another path.

            Peace  

            Republicans worry about our souls and their bellies. Democrats worry about their souls and our bellies

            by plf515 on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 07:41:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Good people (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              plf515

              Yes, we need to give attention to constructive approaches for positive change. It's more important than identifying the problems, but harder.

              I think you are right that many people are creatures of habit or too preoccupied. Others have limited information, or are just going along with the crowd. A good leader or a clever motivational activity (which is what I'm guessing was the process in Paper Clips, which I'll now put on my Netflix queue) can recruit people to move in another direction, and others will follow. I'm sure you're right that yelling is counterproductive.

              I absolutely believe that most people have good instincts that can be appealed to. I look forward to reading your diary when it appears.

    •  Here's a nice looking menorah I found on the net (0+ / 0-)

      And you can find a lot more in a Google image search.

      Not in my town.

      Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

      by Buckeye Hamburger on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:30:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  America...Uber Alles (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel, arbiter

    This is where the right wing is taking us in America. The right wing extremists who are running the Republican Party and who dominate our media are the most un-American bunch of scum I can imagine.

    Wonder how Lieberman feels about his apocalyptic Christian buddies...and I wonder how the Republican leaning Hassids in NYC are liking their right wing buddies now.

    •  Lieberman's good wingnut friends (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mole333

      and all other "Christians" that have befriended the Jews will do what they've done before - promise to stand beside them and support them.  That is, until the day they load Holy Joe and his friends into the boxcars for a short trip to the showers.

      We've all seen this movie before, and we all know how it ends.  

  •  it can't happen here - short memories (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing, shpilk, TiaRachel

    Leo Frank, 1915

    The lynching to death of Leo Frank represents one of only four cases of a Jewish-American being lynched in United States history. (There was a case of a double lynching of a Negro and a Jew in Tennessee in 1868; there were two other cases of American Jews lynched in the 1890s.) Frank, the manager of an Atlanta pencil factory, was accused of murdering teenaged employee Mary Phagan in 1913. Despite evidence linking the factory's African-American janitor, Jim Conley, to the heinous crime, a jury of Frank's Atlanta peers found him guilty and Frank was sentenced to death by hanging. Not only did the prosecution ignore evidence pointing to Conley; it used Conley as its main witness to condemn Frank. This was a unique moment in southern legal history - the testimony of a black man in Jim Crow society used against a white defendant. Subsequent appeals were denied, with even the United States Supreme Court refusing to hear the case.

    Jim Slaton, then the governor of Georgia, alone stood between Frank and the fulfillment of his death sentence. In the face of overwhelming evidence contrary to the guilty verdict, Slaton commuted Frank's death sentence to life in prison. Public outcry was enormous, and on August 16, 1915, 25 armed men kidnapped Frank from prison, drove him 100 miles outside Atlanta to Mary Phagan's home town of Marietta, and hung him from a tree. For U.S. Senator Tom Watson, the malevolent Georgia Populist, Frank's violent death -- he refrained from using the word lynching -- "put Jew Libertines on notice." Ironically, at an earlier stage of his career, Watson had professed his intention to "make lynch law odious to the people." By 1915 he defended lynch law and warned: "The next Jew who does what Frank did is going to get exactly the same thing we give Negro rapists." http://www.americanlynching.com/...

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:46:41 PM PDT

  •  Church and Prayer Time in Boot (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TiaRachel

    Church was a requirement in Marine boot camp too in the 80's, probably the same now, not sure  I was surprised, as it had little to do with being a good Marine.  Most guys went to the protestant ceremony weather they were or not so they could try to grab some sleep, in the catholic ceremony there was alot of stand up to sing and sit back down etc.  

    there is never time to do it right, but always time to do it over

    by DeadB0y on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 01:49:22 PM PDT

  •  This isn't just bigotry. It's a criminal act. (4+ / 0-)

    I'm not sure what the laws are in the great State of Delaware.

    On the other side of the bridge in New Jersey, the behavior as depicted on C&L is a hate crime, pure and simple.  (I would assume the cops and prosecutor would add charges for making terroristic threats as well.)  And it's not a borderline case, either.  Running someone out of town by threatening to murder them and their families is a pretty egregious example of a terroristic threat.

    This isn't just a matter of "shaming."  It's also a matter of "catch the street gang members (or whatever you call a street gang in exurbia -- an SUV gang, perhaps?) and throw them in the slammer."  These assholes at "Stop the ACLU" aren't just the religious right.  They're criminals.  Street gangs run people out of their homes by threatening homicide.  That's what "Stop the ACLU" did.  Thus, Stop the ACLU is a street gang.

  •  Who are the 'Stop The UCLU'...? (0+ / 0-)

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Republicans believe in training Al-Qaeda, but not in training American workers.

    by Lestatdelc on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 02:13:16 PM PDT

  •  I hate to say it (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing

    What these people have done sounds a lot like what the Brown Shirts in pre-World War II Germany did. Identify those whom you believe to be your enemy and then in covert and overt ways threaten them to the point where: As in the case of this family they fled the beloved father land. Stop the ACLU indeed! How about stopping the low rent I've hired my brain out to Hello Kitty bunch that did this.

  •  Showering Mr. Kareiva (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing

    with a little "love" would be an excellent way to expose these anti-Semites for what they are.  The story is just sickening.  I spent some time at Jesus' General webpage today for the first time after seeing this story linked on Atrios.  I do have to say, however, some of the best snark I've ever read is contained in the comments section of Jesus' General's story.  Those people know how to snark.  

    "I'm interested in the shade look, seriously."--George Bush

    by lightiris on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:00:50 PM PDT

  •  if you look at the dynamics behind the action (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Troutfishing, Bhishma

    of people who are part of crowds like this, you find ignorance, certainly. You find a sense of powerlessness, and unfocused rage -- from the times of the Crusades, through to the pogroms, and onward to Nazi Germany, Jews have been the recipients of this manufactured hatred.

    The German people have learned; hatred is not an integral part of Germans. It's a learned behavoir.

    It is the lens, those who serve to focus this rage: this is where legal action must be taken.

    Swiftly, decisively and made public so that those who have learned this repellent behavoir can be deprogrammed.

    Where are the politicians and religious leaders in the State of Delware to denounce these actions?

    Do they simply turn their heads away from the display? The heinous actions of the masses, lead by these moral criminals, this can be explained - not excused, but explained.

    The lack of action on the part of politicians and religious leaders in State of Delaware?
    No excuses, and no explanation.

    I am just as disgusted by the lack of response as I am by the crowds actions.

    Journalistic standards aren't just for 'journalists', anymore.
    We're all journalists, now.- 8.69, - 9.69

    by shpilk on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 04:13:28 PM PDT

    •  Don't be disgusted ! - Do something. Shaming. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      shpilk

      If legal means are not available, societal shaming can work and - in the end - is really the only thing that will.

      Shaming can help to reset people's moral compass, and that sure needs to be done here.

      •  It can help with some .. no doubt there (0+ / 0-)

        and I like the tone of your diary.

        But where are the reactions of responsible people, the 'moral authorities' and 'leadership figures' in Delaware?

        Journalistic standards aren't just for 'journalists', anymore.
        We're all journalists, now.- 8.69, - 9.69

        by shpilk on Wed Jul 05, 2006 at 06:18:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is a troubling question - my answer : (0+ / 0-)

          After my father died last year, in early January, I inherited a pristine copy, apparently never even opened because the paperback spine was not even creased, of Milton Meyer's "They Thought They Were Free".

          Meyer travelled to postwar Germany, in the early 1950's I believe, to befriend low level members of the Nazi Party so he could hear - in their own words - how it had all come to pass.

          In the end this picture emerged : no one stood up.

          Not prominent citizens, nor politicians, nor businesspeople, nor  religious figures.

          Indeed, many of the leading religious figures in Germany were complicit, some enthusiastically so. (please see the video documentary "Theologians under Hitler")

          But - above all - no one stood up to say :
          "No ! - This We Cannot Permit. This is immoral."

          The voice of social conscience was silent.
          Will we let that happen again, now ?

          I have an awful lot to do - projects both consuming, highly political, and - most critically - billable at good per hour rates. ( Just to let you know this is not idle talk )

          So :

          If you wish for leaders....

          Then, you must now lead.

          Think about it.

          How you can do that - who can say. In the end it may be a thing of the heart.

          I will say this though - if you are disturbed by this territory, do not look away. Look at your discomfort and keep at it. Soon enough you will see new things.

          I am describing not a mystical process but a psychological one.

          The very fact that you are asking these questions suggests to me that you are now engaged in that process.

          Best,
          BW

  •  Shaming Project- Let me save you the time. (0+ / 0-)

    I am the blogger of Leaning Straight Up, one of the StoptheACLU.com blogburst members.

    I want to first clearly state I have no direct connection to Nedd Kareiva at StoptheAclu.ORG, who is the person in question that released the information.  I know nothing about his actions, and if true as stated, I catagorically condemn invading anyone's privacy for the purposes of harassment and influence in a legal proceeding.

    I don't even care if the people's names were public record in the filing documents.  To openly post them in that forum and method is to openly invite ignorant retaliation and harassment.

    My involvement with Stop the ACLU (dot Com) and its blogburst is soley to protest some of the cases where I believe the ACLU is acting in a manner that contradicts their stated objectives, and violates the bill of rights they claim they are protecting.

    That is a reflection of my personal beliefs only, and STA (dot com) is a forum where I can express that as well as raising wider attention to local cases of a similar nature.

    I know in that regard, my personal beliefs are at odds with many members here.  I can accept that.  I have never held any presumption that my beliefs were superior, and I welcome dissent at my site.

    I personally have no problem with diversity in discussion.  I link to Kos on my site for that reason.

    In this specific instance, I respect your disagreement of Nedd's actions, and join you in not supporting the release of personal information for any purpose, particularly where that information is being used to harass and shame.

    I have discussed this with Jay at Stoptheaclu.COM and expressed my belief that Nedd's tactics were what I consider way out of line.

    I will continue to post my disagreement with the ACLU and the cases it champions as I see fit, but I will do so by discussing the relative merits of the case, not by resorting in ad hominem attacks or harassing measures.  

    All I ask is the ability to express my own beliefs and opinions on my blog.

    Respectfully,  

    Karl
    LSU

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