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Glenn Greenwald has an essential piece on the current movement of far-right and white supremacist tactics into the purported "mainstream" of conservative bloggers -- Front Page Magazine, Michelle Malkin, and others.

I'll quote some key points (all emphases are mine), but you need to go read the whole thing:

One of the favorite tactics used by [white supremacist] groups is to find the home address and telephone number of the latest enemy and then publish it on the Internet, accompanied by impassioned condemnations of that person as a Grave Enemy, a race traitor, someone who threatens all that is good in the world. A handful of the most extremist pro-life groups have used the same tactic. It has happened in the past that those who were the target of these sorts of demonization campaigns that included publication of their home address were attacked and even killed.

But these intimidation tactics work even when nothing happens. Indeed, these groups often publish the enemy's home address along with some cursory caveat that they are not encouraging violence. The real objective is the same one shared by all terrorists -- to place the person in paralyzing fear. [...]

This weekend, prominent neoconservative David Horowitz proclaimed that the United States is fighting a war and "the aggressors in this war are Democrats, liberals and leftists." In particular, he cited the now infamous NYT Travel section article on Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld's vacation homes as evidence that the employees of the NYT are among the enemies in this war, and he then linked to and recommended as a "proposal for action" this post from his associate, Front Page contributor Rocco DiPippo.  [...]

DiPippo published the home address of NYT Publisher Arthur Sulzberger, along with directions to his home, and linked to a post by right-wing blogger Dan Riehl which contained directions to Sulzberger's home along with photographers of it. In a now-deleted post, DiPippo also published the home address of Linda Spillers, the NYT photographer who took the photograph of Don Rumsfeld's vacation home (with Rumsfeld's express permission), and he urged everyone to go (presumably to the home address he provided) and confront Spillers about her actions.

I want to re-emphasize this point. Rocco DiPippo was, as near as we can tell, the individual who first published the home address and home phone number of the photographer involved in an attempt to solicit an intimidation campaign against her.

This is no low-rung blogger, as most of the far-right bloggers who got caught promoting the campaign against the photographer and NYT staffers tittered in their own defense once things went much too far -- this is a writer for Front Page Magazine. Nearly the entire far-right conservative blogosphere links to them, and protestations of integrity notwithstanding, continues to do so -- in large part because of the far-right tactics of thuggery which Horowitz makes his stock in trade. DiPippo has yet to face any consequences for his actions -- apparently because Horowitz himself was their promoter.

That was not an isolated incident. This week, Bartholomew's Official Notes on Religion reported on the new "project" implemented by the group As that group describes it, the project is called "Expose the ACLU Plaintiffs," and promises to publish the home addresses of all individuals who are "using the ACLU" in any First Amendment lawsuit based on the Establishment clause which challenges the constitutionality of governmental promotion of Christianity. The first such enemy targeted for this treatment is a Jewish family in Delaware who sued their local school district over its alleged promotion of Christianity in the public schools. [...]

Stop the ACLU is not some fringe, isolated group. To the contrary, the "official blog" of is (h/t Hunter), a very prominent player in the right-wing blogosphere. That blog is the 14th most-linked-to blog on the Internet, and is often promoted and approvingly cited to as a source by numerous right-wing bloggers such as Instapundit and Michelle Malkin. The blog Expose the Left (which aspires to be the C&L of the Right), yesterday condemned the "nutcases on the left side of the blososphere" who "are sending unfounded attacks" against StopTheACLU for this plainly despicable thug behavior.

These self-evidently dangerous tactics are merely a natural outgrowth of the hate-mongering bullying sessions which have become the staple of right-wing television shows such as Bill O'Reilly's and websites such as Michelle Malkin's (who, unsurprisingly, has become one of O'Reilly's favorite guests). One of the most constant features of these hate fests is the singling out of some unprotected, private individual -- a public school teacher here, a university administrator there -- who is dragged before hundreds of thousands of readers (or millions of viewers), accused of committing some grave cultural crime or identified as a subversive and an enemy, and then held out as the daily target of unbridled contempt, a symbol of all that is Evil.

Malkin frequently includes contact information for the identified Enemies, and O'Reilly often shows photographs or video of them on multiple programs. These bullying tactics of intimidation -- whereby people who are often just private individuals and who have no defenses (as opposed to, say, prominent politicians or media figures) are singled out for widespread public rituals of contempt -- have quite foreseeable consequences, chief among them placing those targets in fear of retribution. Publishing the home addresses of such individuals is not some wholly different approach, but is merely the next small and foreseeable step, an obvious outgrowth of the hate sessions on which many leading representatives of the Right now heavily rely.

The critical point here, just in case anyone is still unclear, is that the far-right tactics of thuggery -- tactics mainstreamed directly from white supremacist groups and organized intimidation campaigns meant to endorse and assist assaults and actual murders of abortion doctors -- is now a commonplace and eagerly embraced tool for the online so-called "conservative" movement. It simply can't be denied or dismissed as elements of an unknown "fringe" -- look at any right-wing blog, and you'll see links to, advertisements for, or endorsements of the above sites and, in many cases, explicit endorsements of the very "outing" campaigns that they are becoming known for.

Malkin, FrontPage, StopTheACLU, and similar sites are among the most prominent destinations on the right, attracting large hives of supporters that then move the themes of thuggery and intimidation throughout the movement. They're the cornerstones around which the online far-right is built. In other smaller cells of the movement, linking to and being promoted in turn by the "big boys", the racist targeting (primarily against Muslims) becomes even more pronounced, and the rhetoric of violence leaps from the implicit thuggery of the "prime" sites into the more blunt and explicit pronouncements of the far-right underbelly that represents their targeted readership.

These aren't isolated incidents. This is the face of right-wing extremism as it attempts to mainstream itself through figures like Horowitz, Malkin, and a variety of others. And the conservative blogosphere endorses it, promotes it, assists it, and applauds it when it happens.

Read Glenn's entire piece, and internalize it.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:14 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

    •  Facism is dead. (5+ / 0-)

      It's fascism we have to worry about.

      (Just kidding!  I read it like "face-ism," and was beset with humorous images.)

    •  No 'they' don't say it's dead, (7+ / 0-)

      they say we are the fascists.  Assholes.

      "Now you got both sides claiming killin in God's name, but God is nowhere, to be found, conveniently" Pearl Jam--Marker in the Sand

      by tamens on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:17:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

          •  That's the real (4+ / 0-)

            genius of Karl Rove.  The jiu-jiutsu move: paint your opponent with your own weakness.

          •  heads up - Expose the ACLU Plaintiffs 'removed' (8+ / 0-)

            from your above link

            It was suggested, NOT compelled or mandated, by our legal counsel to delete the content and thus take this page out of your arsenal.  In its place, we will continue to post ACLU supporting lawyers and companies like Progressive Insurance and the Ford Foundation so that we may boycott them from ever getting our money and business.

            "Ha Ha!" - Nelson Muntz

            •  What they used to have (8+ / 0-)

              What used to be up there was:

              Written by Nedd    
              Thursday, 02 March 2006
              We are introducing our "Expose the ACLU Plaintiff" project and here'is how it goes.  When an individual, group or even church (yes, there are churches that support the ACLU) is using the ACLU (or similar groups like Americans United, People for the (Anti) American Way, Freedom from Religion Foundation and American Atheists) to facilitate removal of a cross, the 10 Commandments or other religious symbols or the ceasing of prayer from a school or government entity, we want the community to know about it.  We will start with the Dobrich family which was responsible for the case against the Indian River School District in Delaware.  See our news section for more details on the recent school board ruling.

              There followed an address and phone number which I will NOT repost
              and then:


              Our policy regarding this project is as follows:

              1.      If it's a 10 Commandments, cross or religious symbols case, you may call only if you live in the jurisdiction.  If the suit is against a county, you may call if you reside in that county.  If the suit is against a city, you may call only if you live in that city.  
              2.      If it's a school that's involved such as in this one, you may call if you live in the district or have a student attending the school there or if you have a family member working there.
              3.      If #s 1 and 2 do not apply, please only write a letter.  We will also post e-mail addresses if they can be found.
              4.      In all your communications, written or verbal, do not harass and do not be rude.  You can be firm and angry but do not use profanity and under no circumstances should you threaten the party involved.  Your outrage is fully understood and shared but harassment and threats serve only to harm us and could even get the police involved which we don't want.  Remember, you represent the Coalition.

              5.      Get others involved.

              If you want to be involved in research for this project or have any questions,  contact me and I will get you started.  I would like a couple individuals to start working on this ASAP.  But please note - for this project, we're only looking for individuals, small groups and churches.  Major companies and corporations supporting the ACLU like Progressive Insurance and Ford do not fit this project. They will go on our Hall of Shame page.  We want specific plaintiffs in specific cases for this project..

              Thank you.


              •  Rush Limpdick (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                historys mysteries

                use the ACLU to fight his drug charges?

                •  Correct (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  varro, historys mysteries

                  The ACLU helped Rush Limbaugh's defense.  There is a reason that they're only going after plantiffs in freedom-of-religion cases.

                  •  Excellent diary earlier today (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    contains a long list of cases in which the ACLU respresented plaintiffs who were Christians and churches: (Don't) Stop the ACLU!   by JLFinch.

                    ACLU's Defense of Religious Liberty (3/2/2005)
                    The right of each and every American to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution's framers understood very well that religious liberty can flourish only if the government leaves religion alone.
                    The American Civil Liberties Union has a long history of working to ensure that religious liberty is protected...

                    Recent ACLU involvement in religious liberty cases include:

                    September 20, 2005: ACLU of New Jersey joins lawsuit supporting second-grader's right to sing "Awesome God" at a talent show.

                    August 4, 2005: ACLU helps free a New Mexico street preacher from prison.

                    February 2005: ACLU of Pennsylvania successfully defends the right of an African American Evangelical church to occupy a church building purchased in a predominantly white parish.

                    December 22, 2004: ACLU of New Jersey successfully defends right of religious expression by jurors.

                    November 20, 2004: ACLU of Nevada supports free speech rights of evangelists to preach on the sidewalks of the strip in Las Vegas.

                    November 9, 2004: ACLU of Nevada defends a Mormon student who was suspended after wearing a T-shirt with a religious message to school.

                    August 11, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska defends church facing eviction by the city of Lincoln.

                    July 10, 2004: Indiana Civil Liberties Union defends the rights of a Baptist minister to preach his message on public streets.

                    June 9, 2004: ACLU of Nebraska files a lawsuit on behalf of a Muslim woman barred from a public pool because she refused to wear a swimsuit.

                    June 3, 2004: Under pressure from the ACLU of Virginia, officials agree not to prohibit baptisms on public property in Falmouth Waterside Park in Stafford County.

                    May 11, 2004: After ACLU of Michigan intervened on behalf of a Christian Valedictorian, a public high school agrees to stop censoring religious yearbook entries.

                    March 25, 2004: ACLU of Washington defends an Evangelical minister's right to preach on sidewalks.

                    February 21, 2003: ACLU of Massachusetts defends students punished for distributing candy canes with religious messages.

                    July 11, 2002: ACLU supports right of Iowa students to distribute Christian literature at school.

                    April 17, 2002: In a victory for the Rev. Jerry Falwell and the ACLU of Virginia, a federal judge strikes down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating.

                    The diary   has more.

                •  Rush did not want (0+ / 0-)

                  to be charged with ERECTION FRAUD.

                  Do you hear the people sing? Singing a song of angry men? It is the music of a people Who will not be slaves again!

                  by axman on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 08:14:51 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  What doesn't get (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                silence, FrankFrink, WI Dem, Democritus

                is that it is the ACLU that protects even their right to exist, and will sue on their behalf if their rights are threatened.  Why these right wing nutjobs want to sit on a tree and cut the very branch they're sitting on from under them is beyond me.

                •  wouldn't it be delicious... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  WI Dem

                  if they did something that got them sued, and the ACLU came to their legal defense. It'd be like the time Archie Bunker got a blood transfusion from a black man...

                  -8.25, -6.26 "Joe Scarborough - not retarded. Tucker Carlson? Jury's still out." - Stephen Colbert

                  by snookybeh on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:26:07 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  My God! (0+ / 0-)

                (yes, there are churches that support the ACLU)

                Imagine that! Whowoodathunkit.

                The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

                by FrankFrink on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 04:18:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Progressive Insurance (7+ / 0-)

              Supports the ACLU, thanks StopTheACLU, I didn’t know that, looks like I might be changing companies. Its great when they give you useful information. Hehe.

              •  I Have All Three of Our Vehicles Insured with (0+ / 0-)


                I got them because they were the least expensive (and hey, you gotta love the name, right?) option.  

                But now, thanks to StoptheACLU, I feel great about where my insurance money is going and will encourage everyone I know to get Progressive as well.

                Thanks StoptheACLU!  I'm glad you shit-eaters could be useful for something!

                If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
                Oscar Wilde

                by karateexplosions on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:48:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Good. (5+ / 0-)

              Now, when I need a handy list of ACLU-supporting businesses to give my hard-earned money to, I know where to go!

              Thanks, StoptheACLU!

      •  Why do they think WE are the fascists??? (4+ / 0-)

        Because we insist on treating other human beings with respect and dignity? THAT'S fascism??

        (I've heard that shit from Bill O'Reilly's mouth when he was railing against "fascist" school boards for trying to "impose" school lessons on tolerance on people who are otherwise INtolerant--of gays, minorities, whomever. UN-fucking-believeable!!!!)

        •  Accuse, then do (7+ / 0-)

          My assumption is that it is a case of making false accusations in order to justify future atrocities.  If the other side did it first, then you're justified in doing it too...

          •  There was a post about how the (5+ / 0-)

            Rwanda pre-genocide propaganda did exactly that.  The government's hate radio broadcast accusations of Tutsis wanting to wipe out the Hutus.  The propaganda was purposefully crafted to give the Hutus a justification to attack their countrymen and women.

            Pumped and ready for "the rough and tumble competition of the memetic marketplace."

            by sagra on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:38:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  RTLM (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sagra, juliesie

              You've got your Rwanda story right.  The RTLM repeatedly broadcast an accusation, and then the government would do exactly what it was accusing others of doing.

              •  I found the link! (5+ / 0-)

                Leave None to Tell the Story:  Genocide in Rwanda

                From this page:

                Propagandists developed the same themes over and over, both before and during the genocide. While some of the similarities in their messages may result simply from sharing the same cultural milieu, other similarities in technique suggest deliberate coordination among propagandists and between them and government officials. In a mimeographed document entitled “Note Relative à la Propagande d’Expansion et de Recrutement,” found in Butare prefecture, one propagandist tells others how to sway the public most effectively. Obviously someone who had studied at university level, the author of the note presents a detailed analysis of a book called Psychologie de la publicité et de la propagande, by Roger Mucchielli, published in Paris in 1970.

                The author of the note claims to convey lessons learned from the book and drawn from Lenin and Goebbels. He advocates using lies, exaggeration, ridicule, and innuendo to attack the opponent, in both his public and his private life. He suggests that moral considerations are irrelevant, except when they happen to offer another weapon against the other side. He adds that it is important not to underestimate the strength of the adversary nor to overestimate the intelligence of the general public targeted by the campaign. Propagandists must aim both to win over the uncommitted and to cause divisions among supporters of the other point of view. They must persuade the public that the adversary stands for war, death, slavery, repression, injustice, and sadistic cruelty.

                In addition to these suggestions, the propagandist proposes two techniques that were to become often used in Rwanda. The first is to “create” events to lend credence to propaganda. He remarks that this tactic is not honest, but that it works well, provided the deception is not discovered. The “attack” on Kigali on October 4-5, 1990 was such a “created” event, as were others—the reported discovery of hidden arms, the passage of a stranger with a mysterious bag, the discovery of radio communications equipment—that were exploited later, especially during the genocide.

                The propagandist calls his second proposal “Accusation in a mirror,” meaning his colleagues should impute to enemies exactly what they and their own party are planning to do. He explains, “In this way, the party which is using terror will accuse the enemy of using terror.” With such a tactic, propagandists can persuade listeners and “honest people” that they are being attacked and are justified in taking whatever measures are necessary “for legitimate [self-] defense.”2 This tactic worked extremely well, both in specific cases such as the Bugesera massacre of March 1992 described below and in the broader campaign to convince Hutu that Tutsi planned to exterminate them. There is no proof that officials and propagandists who “created” events and made “accusations in a mirror” were familiar with this particular document, but they regularly used the techniques that it described.

                (I'm sorry I forgot who linked me to this.)

                Pumped and ready for "the rough and tumble competition of the memetic marketplace."

                by sagra on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:09:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  we (7+ / 0-)

          want to make them stop praying in school, in fact convert to being atheists or Islam, and everyone has to get abortions even though they'll be gay and married, but give up their guns, knives, pointy sticks, SUVs, red meat, meat, fish, NASCAR, hunting, fishing, football and apple pie, unless the apples are organic and locally grown, but the pie crust better be vegan too.

          That about covers their characiture of us I think.

          This comment was screened and authorized by Kos. All hail the King of the Blogosphere.

          by Scientician on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:29:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Whatever. (14+ / 0-)

            We shouldn't be too concerned about what a bunch of lunatics think about us.  We should probably be more concerned about whether or not they enlist violent soldiers.

            This crazy lunacy is exactly why I think every single solitary hate speach moment has to be held in front of the public as a shameful and unAmerican act.  Ignoring the likes of Coulter or Malkin hasn't stopped either rabid bitch from creating a following.  These people need to be put under the microscope - not with home addresses or any of those horrible tactics - but any time they slither out from under their rocks and say something horrible - incite violence as with this incident - or simply sneeze in a racist intolerant way - they need to be called on it.

            I remember a time when racist bigoted assholes  were atleast afraid to say this shit in public.  It made it a whole lot harder for them to recruit too.

            Take it from a waspy white girl with Southern roots - these people have always been there - they just used to confine their hate speach to limited "trusted" audiences.  Let's send them back into the closet.

            •  Public rejection (6+ / 0-)

              What's needed is explicit public community rejection of the hate speech.  Any good ideas on how you can do that to a columnist?

              •  Well it may be hard to believe and it has taken (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                dkmich, vcmvo2, boofdah

                what feels like eons, but I think Ms. Coulter is nearing the end of her run and Bil O'Stupid is losing his "touch" as well.  I think people are getting really tired of angry mean people.  That is one reason why while I am angry at this era and administration, I really do try to keep my "friendly, cool" hat on when I am reaching out to people in hopes of changing their view of this political landscape.  I am trying to engage the best part of people rather than dueling their worst.  Malkin, Coulter et al have no redeeming value, but they are a great example of "ugliness" and I don't ever fail to point out how distasteful they are.  Even if someone I am talking to agrees with some portion of their politics - I usually get them to come back from the edge with the "that is not nice" card.  Funny how well it works too.  Who knew?

                •  I admire you for being able to do that. I can't. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  inclusiveheart, vcmvo2

                  All I want to do is beat the hell out of them.  So, as along as I don't assault anyone, I think I'm doing good.

                  ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

                  by dkmich on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:16:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There are definitely the hard cases, but (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dkmich, historys mysteries

                    most people are like Jimmy Carter described in his diary recently.  If you ask them questions (really important not to preach) many of their views will be very liberal and most Republican people aren't as hateful as these kooks.  I know that none of my friends who are on the right would approve of what Rocco did especially with the threat to the kids - not even remotely could they rationalize that kind of action.  The crack in the armour came in the aftermath of Katrina - that was a moment where compassion came back - take advantage of it.  People will sour on this hateful speach.

                •  We are the sane party, we try to do things legal (2+ / 0-)

                  While I agree we cannot sink to their level, we cannot let them get away with this anymore.  This turning the other cheek business helped them get strong.. I will do everything legal to get this hate away from our citizens..I cannot turn the other cheek anymore..

                •  Appeal to the angels of their (0+ / 0-)

                  better nature? This is a lovely post inclusiveheart and after the hate filled rants it's particularly calming. I'm getting an ulcer just reading about all of this ugliness.

                  The men who question power determine whether we use power or power uses us- JFK 10/26/1963

                  by vcmvo2 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 04:38:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  What to do, what to do (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bree, boofdah, JanL, YukonJack

                Silence - your question is what has been echoing around my brain since I heard about this as well as the StoptheACLU story.

                What occurs to me is that local pressure, local letters to the editors that get read by the school teachers, the grocers, the police and the local pasors are where some action can be directed.  Local embarassment.

                Talk about this stuff - around the water cooler, in the hallway, in the lines at the grocery store.  Create local buzz of "Shame on them".

                And then I run out of ideas.....'cuz anything else costs money.  Though....we haven't REALLY looked into their funding, have we....hmmmmm.

                •  This hate and harassment is being done in the (9+ / 0-)

                  name of Christianity. Therefore, I think it's incumbent upon Christianity to be the solution.

                  The Indian River pastors, priests and true Christians should take the lead.

                  Some crazyass churches were all for removal of Democrats, and anyone who voted for Kerry.

                  What if the Christians of this community stood up and said that those who were part of StopTheACLU and the harassment of the Jewish family should be expelled from their church?

                  Good for the goose....

                  Live the questions. - Rainer Maria Rilke

                  by Kimberly Stone on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:57:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  All about the money (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Blue Generalist

                    One of the reasons why you don't hear more from progressive Christians is because the hard right is much better financed.

                    More importantly, the hard right pours a large amount of money into media resources, while more progressive groups tend to spend more on charity and more personal forms of outreach. What this means is that the hard right message is promoted and advertised, while the progressive side is not.

                    What is particularly interesting is that this idea can not only overpower a loosly organized and democratic Protestant denomination, but that they have also had considerable success in the Catholic Church, which is very tightly organized with a strict heirarchy and a strong central governing structure.

                    In my own church, the Catholic Church, while they cannot change what does and does not come out of Rome, the right wing Catholic media has been quite good at serving as a filter between what the Vatican says, and what gets heard in the US.

                    For example, remember how Pope John Paul II condemned the Iraq War? Me neither. Remember how then Cardinal Ratzinger called it an "unjust war"? Me neither. However, I am sure you remember Ratzinger's statement about how it was a sin to vote for a pro-choice candidate. This is despite the fact that what he actually wrote specifically stated that Catholics were to not to be single issue voters.

                    My priest told me how when he was in Boston they had an outreach to all sorts of people, including gays, and lapsed Catholics. He said he routinely got protesters who said that they shouldn't be dealing with those people. He also said that the archbishop never told them to stop doing what they were doing.

                    Is my country going mad? Are my fellow Christians losing their minds? What is going on here?

                    Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

                    by wayward on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:23:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  One more thing (0+ / 0-)

                      I bet no one noticed how the overwhelming majority of US Catholic bishops, including some of the most conservative bishops, supported McCain-Kennedy over the House's "enforcement only" bill either.

                      Let's make Tommy Moore our Governor.

                      by wayward on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:29:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A friend of mine (0+ / 0-)

                        has backpacked extensively through Central and South America, way off the beaten path, using his good Spanish to meet ordinary people and live among them briefly before moving on.

                        Raised a devout Catholic, the extreme poverty he saw in his travels made him say, more than once, with great sadness and anger, that the Pope (and by that I think he means the Catholic Church doctrine) was a mass murderer.

                        My response is a bit OT to your posts, but I think ever more sadly about the potential force for overwhelming good that comes from Christ's message, and by following his commandment to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, heal the sick, visit friends in prison. But this is all getting caught up with the wrong priorities for the rightwing Christians.

                        Live the questions. - Rainer Maria Rilke

                        by Kimberly Stone on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:25:27 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Creating buzz (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  bree, boofdah, YukonJack, zigeunerweisen

                  Creating negative buzz about the nastier writers is definitely a part of what needs to be done.

                  The other thing that might work would be something which publicly demonstrates inclusion of those singled out for threats.  Say, a large group of people (and budget for) throwing parties for anybody singled out.  That way, if you do single somebody out, the result is that they get a fun and highly visible party.

              •  Bumper stickers, (0+ / 0-)

                t shirts, yard signs, maybe a postcard campaign where everyone sends the haters' publishers a postcard asking them to stop carrying the hate speech....

          •  And don't forget. (0+ / 0-)

            We are going to make them compost and recycle.

            You are right, that is how they see us.  Why can't they just live their own lives and leave everybody else alone to live theirs.  Why the war?

            ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

            by dkmich on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:14:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  yes (6+ / 0-)

          Growing up in very white, suburban Long Island, I now realize that when my elementary and middle school teachers and principals were talking about tolerance and treating people with respect, they were just as bad as Hitler. I mean, we had canned food drives and save-the-rainforest change collection in my elementary school!

          What the hell were they thinking, trying to teach us to be conscientious citizens? Clearly, it should be up to the parents to decide whether or not to raise their kids as mean, selfish little bigots.

          Oh God, I haven't read your book; I'm sure it was divine
          Especially the part where you turned water into wine

          by nasarius on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:34:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  While not a Coulter fan (0+ / 0-)
          There are a group of prog/libs at schools who disrupt con/neo-con speakers by shouting them down, throwing pies, etc....whereas some of the more controverial speakers from the left (pro-insurgent, anti-war, anti-Bush) are given respectful venues to air their views.

          Despite hating the message, even the far right deserve respectful receptions at schools/universities...or your premise falls flat.  Defense of those disrupting far-right speakers while expecting far-left speakers to have good, receptive, non-disruptive audiences is unfair.

          (And linking Malkin to "white-supremacist" seems a bit weird)

          Best regards,

          •  BTW, the "contact info" referenced (0+ / 0-)
            on Malkin's list was the lame/stupid/amateurish self-published info of the Students Against War info that those "geniuses" put on their web-site.

            If "self-published" info is the best you have on Malkin, its a weak point.  (However, this certainly had different views at Kos...some actually agreeing that the SAW folks self-inflicted this wound.)

            Best regards,

            •  Actually, (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              boofdah, YukonJack, zigeunerweisen

              it wasn't on their web site.  It was on the press release that went to the press.  It wasn't public.

              •  It was a press release...on their website. (0+ / 0-)
                And it was publicly available for a short time (before they realized the error of that approach).

                But thanks for putting a finer point on it.

                Best regards,

                •  So, to put a finer point on the withdrawal of all (0+ / 0-)

                  the hate posting by the rabid wingnuts on their sites such as Ricco Dipippo and others -"it was publically available for a short time (before they realized the error of that approach)."

                  But, the gutless shits pulled their ugly words. Why?  Why would they pull their words and their flaming swords from their own blogs?

                  Do you think we should use their words and prosecute them? If it is at all possible. See, they take a press release and use it for intimidation and foul play. We use press releases within the framework of the "rule of law" to prosecute for foul play.

                  <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                  by bronte17 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:11:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  As a non-SAW fan (0+ / 0-)

                    I could use a lot of your words to describe them for throwing rocks at departing vehicles, jeering men and possibly women who could not even consider using the same tactics, and were too cowardly to protest their senators/congressmen/executive-branch who truly make the decisions those soldiers implement.

                    But I won't.

                    Those amateurs screwed-up.  I've seen private info published here (then pulled).  Neither side has the monopoly on ethics OR dirty-tricks.


                    •  Actually a 'SAW non-Fan' (0+ / 0-)
                    •  Oh, geez, your holier-than-thou aggrandizement (0+ / 0-)

                      is like friggin' nails down a chalkboard.

                      Do you stick your little finger out while holding your nose as you fain dispense the disparaging commentary? You know, those jeering  people are just so uncouth. The "snotty" people  cannot reciprocate by lowering themselves to engage in the same jeer-chat with the riff-raff. The snots must go home and publish the private info of said riff-raff on the internet in an attempt to utterly destroy them and their families.

                      Clean and easy and you can pretend to be above the maddening crowds.

                      Pretentious hogwash.

                      <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                      by bronte17 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 06:02:04 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Have I found an electronic stalker? (0+ / 0-)

                        I am so flattered.  I hope I can count on your commentary to ALL of my posts.  Just in case your search option dorks up, use a leading space before "USAFguy" to ensure you find my posts EVERY time.

                        •  Smarmy... Like you would interest me enough to (0+ / 0-)

                          stalk your ass.  Pfffttt...

                          It was a simple reply to your continued comments. You were rude and got in Hunter's face (well, his comment).

                          <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                          by bronte17 on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:54:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Malkin's writings appear (10+ / 0-)

            on the white supremacist site, VDare, and she has promoted the works of the organization. VDare is marked as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

            It may indeed be odd, but it is what it is.

            •  I don't doubt the SPLC has done that (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              But isn't there "something" incongruent with a "White Supremacist Hate Site" quoting and endorsing (apparently) the comments of a Filipina with a (?) Jewish surname?

              Something doesn't wash.  Reminds of a Dave Chappelle skit about a blind, black, Ku Klux Klan member.  

              Best regards,

              •  The SPLC has said that VDare was (0+ / 0-)

                "once a relatively mainstream anti-immigration page," but by 2003 had "become a meeting place for many on the radical right."

                Perhaps the publication of these "ethnic" writers by VDare is a recent phenomenon and the use of these rightwing personalities is solely for the purpose of "whitewashing" the racist and xenophobic atmosphere of VDare. Hate and racism comes in all colors, but it  is still hate and racism.

                You could say that VDare has a similar philosophy to Deng Xiaoping, "It doesn't matter the color of the cat so long as it catches the mice." Malkin spreads the putrid hate for VDare, so why should they care about the "color" of her skin. She has westernized her looks and incorporated their idea of "whiteness."

                Here's sample of the writing there are VDare:

                Steve Sailer, who often writes on race and intelligence issues, argued in a VDARE article following Hurricane Katrina, “Racial Reality And The New Orleans Nightmare,” that the lower average IQ of African-Americans found in intelligence research correlates with "poorer native judgment than members of better-educated groups [resulting in the need for] stricter moral guidance from society."

                This was followed by some accusations of racism, most notably by John Podhoretz in the National Review Online.[7] Sailer responded by arguing that many of those making the accusations acknowledged a correlation between low IQ and poor judgment by supporting the Supreme Court's 2002 Atkins v. Virginia decision "that, in effect, banned the death penalty for killers with IQs under 70."[8] John Derbyshire defended Sailer in the National Review Online by citing large variance in crime rates by race and birth rates for unmarried women by race.

                According to Peter Brimelow, Sailer's original article has been emailed out by readers (through the link to "email [this article] to a friend") at among the highest volumes seen by VDARE's articles.

                "Isn't there 'something' incongruent" with your support for this hate site?

                "Something doesn't wash" USAF guy and it smells pretty damn foul.

                <div style="color: #a00000;"> Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshal

                by bronte17 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:04:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Huhn? Ka-blooooooie! (0+ / 0-)

              My head just exploded from irony overload.

              The Grasshopper Lies Heavy

              by FrankFrink on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 04:25:45 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Teaching Tolerance is 'Far Left'? (0+ / 0-)

            I did not know that.  That's a pity.

            And in a thread about the hateful attempts to intimidate private families and even children with fear of bodily harm or death, I find it unfortunate that you reserve your sympathies for Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin.

            If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
            Oscar Wilde

            by karateexplosions on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 06:13:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  The thing about this that I find most fascinating (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          historys mysteries, boofdah

          is that they can and do just say anything. Whatever they want.  Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, true or untrue, good or bad; AND they get away with it - over and over and over.  So, I think the Democrats should be able to say whatever in the hell they want and see what happens.  Its like Alice in the rabbit hole.

          ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

          by dkmich on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:08:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Oh, but you must know (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          that's not how they frame the issue. According to them, with the ACLU leading the way, we liberals are attempting to eliminate religion - and thus God Himself - from this Christian nation. And no, I can't begin to correct the misconceptions in the previous sentence.

    •  Can we call them Brownshirts now? (10+ / 0-)

      They call us haters?  Time to take the gloves off.

      They are fascists.  Brownshirts.  Thugs.  Liars and bullies and cowards.

      Any Republican politician should be challenged at every opportunity to denounce these brownshirts.  If not, ask them why they support such dangerous terrorists.

      Let's Ward Churchill these assholes, and see how the Republicans like it.

      -4.50, -5.85 In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. --Orwell

      by Dallasdoc on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:33:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hello, FBI ? A little entrapment, pleeease (0+ / 0-)

      Get on down there and start building a "conspiracy" case against these anti-semitic wingnuts.

  •  Freaky. (17+ / 0-)
    Very freaky.

    Glenn Greenwald has quickly become one of my favorite blog(ger)s.  His work on the NSA stuff is unparalleled.

    Definitely worth the daily visit.

    So, not to violate Godwin or anything, but is anyone thinking "Brownshirts" besides me?

    •  Yes, but that takes a while (6+ / 0-)

      Right now, they're not able to mobilize large numbers of thugs on the street in the open.  If that's where they're trying to go, its going to take at least a couple years to get to that point.

      •  In which time... (7+ / 0-)

        we might formulate a counter-plan... not a counter-march, but a reasonable response to prepare ourselves.

        When they get so bold to emulate the brownshirts of old, we cannot let them show false "strength" to the un- and ill-informed who haven't bought their brand of bullshit.

        "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

        by zeitshabba on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:21:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This attack on the NY Times (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2, historys mysteries, gpm

          may actually get us (the good guys) some traction.  If you threaten the press, especially one as powerful as the Times, there's likely to be a serious reaction.

          Maybe this sort of news will start to get out, and people will see what's happening before things get too far out of hand.

        •  Then I'm on my way to buy a gun. (4+ / 0-)

          And the first thug to attack my house, my family, or me will go home in a body bag.

          It is difficult to win an argument when your opponent is unencumbered with a knowledge of the facts. Dr. Nordstrom's First Rule of Debate

          by DemInTampa on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:54:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  They're bullies. (5+ / 0-)

            The only thing that will stop them is fear of getting their nose broken or their head shot off, multiplied by the certainty of it happening.

            It is difficult to win an argument when your opponent is unencumbered with a knowledge of the facts. Dr. Nordstrom's First Rule of Debate

            by DemInTampa on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:56:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  True that. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              Although if it's police who are doing the brownshirting, it's best to wait until after they beat you up, then sue them.  Cops are trained to fight; they're less good at testilying when they have their actions caught on video.

              9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

              by varro on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:44:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Agree with this, but a concern... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            peraspera, bree, Moody Loner, FrankFrink

            I have a feeling that it's going to go down like this:

            Ultra-right fundie attacks someone = get off on technicality.

            Gay/Muslim/etc family member kills attacking thug breaking into house = manslaughter or 2nd degree murder charges for the person who WAS ATTACKED.

            Any doubts it'll happen that way?

            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

            by Loboguara on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:05:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  oddly enough, MS just passed a law (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tamens, zeitshabba

              that says you can shoot someone in defense of property (as well as defense of self).

              in normal times, it's an ill-thought-out, uncivilized law.  But reading what Hunter's posting the last couple of days, the fear grows in me that these are not "normal" times.

              I'm half-tempted to start going to these sites, calling them out for the Nazis they are, posting my home address, and closing with "I'm a veteran, and I believe in the 2nd Amendment.  Stay off my property."

              I don't know if that's the right idea, but we need to remember that these people are cowards, plain and simple.  They're just like a schoolyard bully, or the crowd of hoodlum kids on "The Simpsons."  They will only succeed if we let them.

              If you got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in - Grateful Dead

              by mississippi scott on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:53:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  What about the Minuteman Project? (nt) (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Hunter, Marc in KS, gpm, FrankFrink, Magnifico

        Bush's father should have withdrawn earlier

        by se portland on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:36:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Point. (0+ / 0-)

          Vigilantism.  In cute little uniforms.


        •  They're not able to target arbitrarially (0+ / 0-)

          They can bring modestly sized groups out to look for noncitizens on the border.  They're not in any position to go after targeted political enemies of the Republican party at this point.

          Might some of the people involved in minutemen form the core of a group of street thugs in the future?  Possibly, but that hasn't happened yet.

          •  They'd better watch out (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            historys mysteries

            Dontchaknow?  200 of our Minnesota finest guards are on their way.  They'll bring lutefisk and lefse with 'em.  Yup - guard that southern border cuz lord knows we don't have one to guard up here.

            /snark, just in case somebody didn't get it.  We Minnesowtans are invadin' with our finest foods and Ole and Lena jokes!

            •  You can bring whatever you want down here (0+ / 0-)

              but you better have lots of sunscreen and liquids.

              You're gonna need ever joke you can get your hands on.

              Illumination is cheap around here.

              by walkshills on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:25:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Non-issue (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                historys mysteries

                We get pretty darn warm and humid up here during the dog days of summer, so that's a non-issue.  MN skeeters are the biggest in the US, so they'll bring repellant also.  We also usually bring talcum powder to ease the tether pull we have to have on our kids to keep them safe from the skeeters.

                If you can't tell, I'm still rolling my eyes at the idea of having to ship Guards down south when we aren't using them on the border we have, or to guard the nuclear plants or the other power plants or, or, catch my drift.

                •  It is a crazy idea (0+ / 0-)

                  I have to agree with you on that. Crazy stuff to come down here.

                  Since I posted the above, I talked with a friend with whom I graduated HS and she then lived in Minnesota for 25 years. She thought y'all would do okay with humid heat (they kind y'all get in the summer) but that the ultra-dry heat of West Texas (west of Nuevo Laredo) would be much harder to endure.

                  The only nuclear plant is Bay City, near the mid-coast, so you might be more prepared for that. Plus having some interesting places to visit and being able to get to the coast anytime to swim and fish.

                  In West Texas you get to count the dust devils. If it's near Big Bend and you're a rockhound or geology fan, you'll have a big time. Except for the rattlesnakes and scorpions and the occasional mountain lion, there's not much to spook you.  

                  Illumination is cheap around here.

                  by walkshills on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 09:44:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  They need government support to do that (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        silence, bree, Moody Loner, vcmvo2, gpm

        While the rise in home-grown fascism is truly alarming, it cannot get far without the connivance of government.  The fascists do not control any branch of state or federal government at the present time. Authoritarian conservatives are in control of some of those branches, but the two faces of reaction should not be confounded.

        The principal instance in which a quasi-fascist movement took hold in this country was the segregationist movement in the South, which was sustained by state and local government.  Without that support the present-day fascists are bothersome and alarming, but not yet dangerous.

        Let us never forget that for all his demagoguery, Hitler would never have come to power if it had not been given to him by conservative groups in Germany who feared the Left more than they feared Hitler, whom they underestimated.  At present the Right is secure enough that it doesn't need the fascists for anything other than stirring up emotions to get people to vote against their economic interests.  It doesn't need the fascists to maintain the basic power structure of this country.  If the fascists resort to terror, they will under present conditions face the same fate as the Oklahoma City bombers.

        I'm worried, but not yet deeply afraid.

      •  The Brownshirts were shipped from town to town (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Sort of like soccer hooligans. But they were not local. They also provided Hitler with a portable backdrop and audience.

      •  Bet they've been practicing, too. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Moody Loner, Carbide Bit

        Things that are happening are so outlandish, so amazing, so why not this.

        ....although the future is unknown, it will not be unblogged. David D. Perlmutter

        by dkmich on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:20:45 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Eventually, maybe, one day (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dkmich, bayside

          But they're not at the point where they can do that on any meaningful scale.  For now, the best tactic is to publicly demonstrate community rejection of this kind of tactic.  You can do that by creating negative buzz about columnists, by throwing visible and public parties for those singled out by the right, by getting a dozen friends to write letters to the editor of your local paper, etc.

          If the time comes when our least disasterous choice is to use violence to protect ourselves, we'll have already lost most of what we're fighting for.

    •  Don't forget Dave Neiwert, too, (14+ / 0-)

      who's been reams of pages on this phenomenon.  He's definitely the go-to man for this topic, and I'm glad other bloggers are starting to write about it just as seriously and in-depth.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:21:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How to tell you're correct (9+ / 0-)

      Sometimes I read what people on the right are saying and I wonder if maybe I'm wrong.  I wonder if maybe I'm just as delluded as I perceive them to be.  But then I think about how they behave, and how we behave and it becomes clear to me that I am on the correct side of this.

      Specifically, I can think of a couple things:

      1. prevalence of opinions derrived from clear lies and distortions (both sides do it but there's far more of it going on with that side)
      2. the tendancy towards being violent, angry or threatening
      3. the brownshit behavior of actively trying to intimidate those who question their common wisdom

      While we may disagree with them and find them to be crackpots, we don't treat them as inhuman.  We see them as delluded, and misguided, but I've never seen suggestion here that we should threaten them, etc.  

      Invariably there's always emotion in these debates, and the further you are to one side of the debate, the more likely that your position is based more on emotion than logic.  But My sense of things is that there's a sort of desperation on the right because they are... wrong.  That desperation leads to paranoia, anger, threats, and potentially actual violence.

      --- If trickle down economics worked, Marie Antoinette wouldn't have lost her head

      by sterno on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:28:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The scary part in this is (7+ / 0-)

        the thuggishness, the immediate jump toward violence as a response.  That's what makes me think I'm on the right side.

        Of course I have my delusions and biases, but if one of my beliefs is challenged I'm not personally threatened and I surely don't immediately leap to the idea that violence is a good way to resolve the tension.

        Most people who do not think about things do not easily separate themselves (what they think of as their "self") from their beliefs.  Thus challenging a belief is a threat to self, and you're going to see some pretty violent responses.

      •  I agree (0+ / 0-)
        that these folks are wrong, wrong, and further, wrong. Violence in return for threatened or actual violence is not the answer, yet for this set of intimidating tactics I know no answer. I wish I could think up a response tactic similar to the Billings, Montana menorah response to hate crimes. I think that police chief's take on the project is correct: that you've got to nip the hateful action scene before it takes root. But what type of action would be correct, in the legal yet fits the moral crime sense?

        What the president says is executive privilege is nothing but executive poppycock. Senator Sam Ervin

        by sailmaker on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:04:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        • (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bree, skippythebox, Democritus

          Violence in return for threatened or actual violence is not the answer

          That all depends. If a hollering and yelling bunch of pig-eyed hateful thugs smashes into your house with gasoline and weapons to kill you and your family for being the wrong race or religion, you have seconds to act. And you have two choices.

          1. Defend yourself and your family with lethal force.
          1. You and your family are killed.

          That's pretty much it in that kind of case, unfortunately. And that's the harsh reality. That sort DOES NOT LISTEN to reason. Only superior strength.  

          "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

          by Loboguara on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:10:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, however (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            I was thinking as a member of a blogging community, the local Dem organization, and a few other civic groups. What kind of action can a group of people take against hate inciting speech? As the people in Billings, Montana did non violently yet effectively, I would like to see and participate in a pro-active campaigne to get these people to go back to their caves whense they came. Finding their funding and cutting it off by lawsuit or boycott seems like a start.

            What the president says is executive privilege is nothing but executive poppycock. Senator Sam Ervin

            by sailmaker on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:31:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  it is a good start (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              but may regrettably not be the entire answer.

              You must learn from the mistakes of history and be prepared for things to get much, much, much worse.  If you are not capable of reacting with direct executive level violence then you run the real risk of sharing the same fate as numerous others at the hands of these kinds of people.

              And I would prefer not to see any of us in some unmarked mass grave in the hinterlands.

              Start by going after their funding, and let them know through indirect channels that if they so much as LEAN towards acting upon their rhetoric it will cost them their lives and the lives of anyone that so much as knew them.

              A solid one-two punch that knocks out most bullies.

    •  I visit (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peraspera, Marc in KS, JanL

      Glenn site daily.
      The man can write !!!

      Have A Bloggy Day :)

      by eeff on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:42:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Doesn't violate Godwin (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bree, vcmvo2, FrankFrink

      (At least that's what my "signing statement" says!)

      As I see it, you only violate Godwin if you throw out "Nazis" or the like as an ad hominem. Drawing a historical parallel is another matter entirely. IMHO in this case it's at least arguable that the historical parallel is valid.

      I just say this because I think we shouldn't flinch from drawing the parallel  if it fits.

      If I worry about the future, will the future change?--Quai Chang Caine

      by Enjoy Every Sandwich on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:27:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I made exactly that point in a thread (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tamens, bree

        about 8 months ago.  I felt like it was not a violation of Godwin if the parallels between the administration's tactics and Nazi tactics were historically accurate.

        At some point we have to be abe to call it like it is.

        I was just being snide.

    •  Godwin (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tamens, Smallbottle, Marc in KS
      is dead.

      It was only a valid law in a civil society and was based upon the flawed premise that fascism was dead.

    •  Godwin's Law has been suspended... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bree, Marc in KS, FrankFrink

      ...until 1/20/09, or impeachment and conviction, whichever comes first.

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:42:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In the last election in KS (13+ / 0-)

    Supporters of Kris Kobach put a Moore supporters address and picture of her house on the web.  They also came to my house to threaten me with prosecution when I called to tell them to come get a yard sign for Kobach that was placed on the common ground of our homes association against our rules.  These people are extreme.

    Winning without Delay.

    by ljm on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:17:30 PM PDT

  •  I already internalize enough to want to drop by (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boofdah, FrankFrink, trashablanca

    Nedd's place and break all the bones in his hands and feet to relieve the "internalization" I feel.  But of course, that would be wrong.

  •  But if the New York Times... (10+ / 0-)

    and their fellow cohorts are dirty rotten domestic terrorists...

    then doesn't that put a kink in the whole "fighting them there (wherever "there" is) so we don't have to fight them here" theory?

    "The last thing people want is an opposition party vigorously opposing things." - jasonwhat

    by the new yorker on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:18:18 PM PDT

  •  Regardless of your religion... (11+ / 0-)

    I don't understand how any of these miscreants can actually think they are living a good life & plan on eternal happiness for painting a bulls-eye on those who are already being discriminated against. Those who cannot take a punch are the first to kick someone else down.

    Can we hold these people up as prime example #1 on why our school systems need serious reform?!?

    "I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."

    by zeitshabba on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:18:55 PM PDT

  •  Not surprising (4+ / 0-)

    when they base their entire position on fear-mongering and an "us-against-them" mentality with a heaping helping of xenophobia, homophobia, and a dash of racism on the side, it's only a matter of time before they start openly proclaiming their allegiance to the furor Bush.

    "The political function of rights is to protect the minority, (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)" -Ayn Rand

    by Kaity on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:19:10 PM PDT

  •  Being civilized (16+ / 0-)

    is so pre-9/11.  Only America hating liberals would object to terrorizing reporters and their families.  You know, if there is a one percent chance that it could help us win the war on terror we should just hang them all.

  •  If only liberals had adopted the tactics (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    maggiemae, Mxwll, esquimaux

    of the militant left not so long ago, as the right has done with the tactics of its fringe loonies....

    ... we could be eating the rich now instead of them  trickling down on us.

    The most un-American thing you can say is, "You can't say that." -G. Keillo

    by Eddie Haskell on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:20:29 PM PDT

    •  True, but we didn't. I don't agree with these (5+ / 0-)

      tactics when instigated by ELF or PETA or the KKK or Stop the ACLU.  

      This posse mentality led to death in the bombing of abortion clinics, and it's no stretch to imagine some overzealous misguided individual harrassing and harming the family in Delaware. There  only "crime" is being Jewish, and wishing to eliminate Christian religious influence in their  childs' school.

      Two wrongs don't make a right, and I'm happy to say we are on higher moral ground here than our far  right counterparts.  

      Nobody should ever be pissing on anyone.    

      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. ~Issac Asimov

      by maggiemae on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:39:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That was sorta' my point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I hope.

        We managed not to do the Gang of Four thing here and mostly we were --and still are -- critical of it.

        What happened to the sane critics on the other side?  There used to be some.  I know there were.  They seem strangely silent of late.

        The most un-American thing you can say is, "You can't say that." -G. Keillo

        by Eddie Haskell on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:52:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Old militant groups out for a reason (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bree, Eddie Haskell

      That mostly ate their own.

      Unless I misinterpreted what happened to Malcom X.

      Not to single out AA movements, but it was an especially infamous and self-destructive assassination.

      Hey, Republicans: We Brought It On. :)

      by cskendrick on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:55:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  They Only Respect Force (12+ / 0-)

    Just like with redistricting, they will only stop when they are beaten with their own stick. Everything else is pointless.

    Kos said Dems aren't mean enough to redistrict and shove it back in their faces. These thugs will continue to endanger people and their families until their own are endangered.

    Nothing else gets through.

    •  only sane comment in thread (10+ / 0-)

      Everyone else seems hellbent on bringing whiffle bats to a gunfight.  The comments on this thread make me want to cry; we really don't get it yet.  We want to make a point - they want us dead.  Literally.

      Figure it out, people.

    •  Not hostile to the idea of doing just that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Not if they come after my kids.

      In fact, I could get very comfortable with the concept of preemptive action in a real hurry.

      Hey, Republicans: We Brought It On. :)

      by cskendrick on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:53:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They are endangered (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bree, Marc in KS, SecretLover, Carbide Bit

      and the know it! This is why they are becoming more and more rabid and dangerous. You know the cornered animal syndrome. Watch it will get a lot worse before it gets tamed. The only cure is to win in 06, 08, 10,12 14 and on into the next century!.

      Disabled Viet Vet ret. My snark is worse than my bite

      by eddieb061345 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:57:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Huge difference between stalking + redistricting (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shockwave, bree, vcmvo2

      Let's stop for a moment and look at your analogy:

      On the Right, there is much talk of ACTUAL VIOLENCE or at least implied violence. As in like killing or "getting" people, of actually physically harming people.

      Versus, Dems not being "mean" enough to re-district. Not being figuratively mean enough to carry out an abstract policy (since there's not much more abstract than re-drawing imaginary lines on a map).

      So. Actual threats of violence vs. Abstract political warfare.

      We are talking about people so unhinged --- our Right wingnut friends who would "out" reporters and others -- that they can no longer think within the boundaries of legal, non-violent political discourse. I.e. they have become political criminals, certainly in intent.

      So please, don't lecture us about being too "soft" or whatever. We intend to figuratively "crush" them at the polls, with paper ballots. Not literally crush their skulls with baseball bats, as Ann Coulter has called for them to do.

  •  RICO (6+ / 0-)

    I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on television) but I would make an educated guess that these folks might be prosecuted under the RICO Act. I would also hazard a guess the we'll hear something about this from the great folks who work with Morris Dees at the Southern Poverty Law Center. It would be a comfort to expect some intervention from the DOJ but that would immediately be followed by ice skating in hell.

  •  To quote Kos (9+ / 0-)

    Not all republicans are racist, but I would bet that all racists are republicans.

    Bush supporters are un-American

    by librarianman on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:23:33 PM PDT

  •  It's only a matter of time... (0+ / 0-)

    before someone whose information was posted by Malkin or her ilk is found dead in a trunk somewhere.

    When that happens, this whole march toward facism ends, because the American people won't stand for that.

    Demonize our enemies, sure.  Murder them?  I don't think anyone really wants that.  

    But I am kept awake at night by the thought I'm wrong.

    You think you've got it tough. Try being a liberal in the military.

    by filmgeek83 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:26:21 PM PDT

    •  I think you are wrong. (11+ / 0-)

      We have become a nation that loses track of the scandals.  There are so many that the average person gives up on outrage.  So long as they themselves are okay, well then that is some "other" who is lied to, cheated on, stolen from, victimized, tortured, murdered, etc.

      It really is hard to keep the outrage meter at full blast when no consequences seem to fall on those who lie, cheat, steal, torture or murder.

      "Now you got both sides claiming killin in God's name, but God is nowhere, to be found, conveniently" Pearl Jam--Marker in the Sand

      by tamens on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:35:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No... I disagree (0+ / 0-)

        There's a reason why the saying exists, "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
        Some dies out of all this, they become a martyr. A real one. And these creeps slink off until the next time, or until enough people are outraged over the whole thing.

        Scandals are scandals, death is death, two entirely different levels of power over the mind. Disgust becomes 'Hey that could be me and mine next!'
        Why do you think none of the MSM have gone out of the way to print major stories about Iraqi deaths and are reluctant as hell to print even the worst ones. Before the whole Fourth Estate got drawn in, the Iraqi number of deaths would have been plastered all over the country with loud words of LOOK AT THIS.
        Now it's only, Yea, yea, they died, terrible!
        But that's far and away. Not in our face.
        If some guy is caught after the murder of someone happens yelling "I did it for you Ann and Rush! Down with all Democrats!!"
        That would open eyes up.

        A vote for GOP is a vote for WW3

        by RElland on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:55:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did that happen when Matthew Shepherd... (11+ / 0-)

 left on that fence to die?

          Did that turn people against the haters? Hardly.

          What makes you think it'll happen now?

          "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

          by Loboguara on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:57:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  exactly - (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tamens, shpilk

            It didn't stop with Matthew Shepard.  Or the poor bastard dragged to death in Texas.  Or the gynecologist in New York murdered by Paul Hill.  Or with Timothy McVeigh.  

            These people cannot be embarassed by anything.  Don't kid yourselves.

          •  Actually (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I think that was a pivotal event that got a lot of Americans thinking about homophobia. There were thousands upon thousands of straight white suburbanites who had never done a thing about queers before joining in those candlelight vigils and becoming more active allies.

            Did it get rid of the bigots? No. But that's not how these things work. And why this gay murder, instead of the many that had happened before (and that have happened since)? Who knows.

            I don't necessarily agree with the comment you're responding to, BTW, but I think that Matt Shepard's murder absolutely got more people to get vocal about hate crimes in particular. It got a gigantic response at the time.

    •  It is for this reason... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eeff, Loboguara, SecretLover, gatorcog

      ...that I would totally understand anyone whose names and addresses are published on some far-right wing blog to take another page from the right-wing playbook and exercise their Second Amendment rights in order to protect their first.

      If my contact information were published by Malkin, O'Reilly, or anyone else of their ilk, I would make sure that the first person through my door to carry out their "orders" would be the last, and let the cops and the DA clean up the mess.

      Just sayin'.
      •  Agreed, but... (0+ / 0-) seems like if you're part of the right-wing noise machine, you can get away with murder. Literally.

        Part of the opposition...and you're going up the river no matter how justified your actions.

        "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

        by Loboguara on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:58:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Could be. (0+ / 0-)

          And I should say now that I do not own a firearm, and have no intention of purchasing one.

          However, were I to be placed in the unfortunate position of having to defend myself and my family from the right wing "noise" machine if one of their followers were to decide to go beyond noise, I would do so. No way I go into hiding and leave my home because I exercised my right to speak, write, publish, etc.  

          •  Problem with not practicing w/one now, though. (8+ / 0-)

            Simple fact. Owning a firearm does not make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you able to play a concert as a musician.

            Just owning a gun doesn't make you any safer than not owning one. If there's an attack and someone busts into your house, you have to have practiced, be able to use it in SECONDS to hit a target and not endanger people beyond.

            There are non-redneck ranges around. Bass Pro Shops have ranges that are more like a nice hotel. And I've always felt that getting a rental and spending some time with an instructor, just to have some skill with what is currently the best means of personal a worthwhile skill.

            That or getting into target shooting, which allows you to become familiar with it without it being a "weapon" all the time. Guns can be a piece of sports equipment or a weapon, it depends on the intent of the human pulling the trigger. You have to respect safety, but they're just machines.

            Never hurts to learn.

            "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

            by Loboguara on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:16:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Point well taken. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I have shot before, though I'm likely out of practice. Soon I'll be moving to a rural area, though, and I may well explore various firearm options at that time - though I have a feeling my wife ain't going to like it. :)

          •  and if you wait that long (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            it will be far too late for you to obtain the means to defend yourself.  If you somehow were able to get hold of one at that point, you'd be more of a danger to yourself, family, and neighbors because of a lack of practice in using the thing.

            I "bit the bullet" back in 1999 when I saw that the hatemongers were getting the keys to the throne.  I have not regretted that decision.

  •  Nice work Hunter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Babsnc, Stand Strong

    go get um,    Bastards!

  •  It's somehow inherent in their thought. (16+ / 0-)

    I have a group of friends -- FRIENDS -- who are conservative.  For a few years, we have had a little email discussion group.  It usually follows the pattern: I say something, everybody rebuts me, I rebut them even better, they call me nasty but funny names, I call them nasty but funny names, we all go have a beer on Friday.  Or something similar.

    Very recently we had a protracted discussion about global warming and the fact that 100% of the studies that have an opinion on GW support the idea that it is primarily human in cause.  I cited the Oreskes study asserting this maybe 6 times.  Instead of responding to the facts, they instead chose to go off on tangents, berate me, mock me, etc.  They never responded with contrary facts of their own, just mockery.  I can handle being mocked -- in fact, this discussion group would have been nothing without the ability to mock each other -- but at some point, I just got sick of their apparent lack of desire to talk about reality.

    I had previously seen these friends as reasonable, and I even counted on them to keep me in check when I got a little too radical.  But I am rapidly losing confidence that there is any such thing as a reasonable conservative.  I believe it is becoming perfectly acceptable, even among supposedly reasonable people, to squash dissent rather than disagree with it or counter it with alternative ideas.

    I always hate to be alarmist, but I don't know what name to give this type of thought other than fascism.

    •  it's understandable (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, bree, gpm, tonyahky

      as I've mentioned before, I go to a very conservative school. Whenever I make a rational, fact-based argument, I always get "commie" or "hippy" thrown in my face, as if a personal attack nullifies facts and logic.

      The rampant hypocrisy and do-as-I-say-not-as-I-doism is what bothers me so much. "THE NEW YORK TIMES POSTED A PICTURE OF RUMMYS HOUSE WITH HIS PERMISSION! HERE'S THE PHOTOGRAPHERS ADDRESS (btwdon'tthinki'mencouragaingviolencehere)"


      "The political function of rights is to protect the minority, (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)" -Ayn Rand

      by Kaity on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:30:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's that loopback (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lysias, bree, JanL, FrankFrink, gatorcog, Kaity

        that really makes the "fascist" label stick.

        1. You assert something.
        1. A wingnut responds by calling you a commie, and you object to being called a commie.
        1. The wingnut accuses you of attacking him personally and being "angry" or (if you're a woman) "shrill."

        In one quick move, the fascist puts you on the defensive and makes it nearly impossible for you to reasonably disagree with him.

    •  For most 'fascist' misses the mark ... 'SELFISH' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Blue Generalist

      seems to get them better. They just want to maintain their cushy lifestyle no matter who has to work harder to give it to them. Not to mention who and what has to die to give it to them.

      And then of course you can always NUKEM - "will their kids be enlisting to defend Murica?"

      Or for those preferring subtlety you can always bring up the temperature in Baghdad today.

      AND help them out by reminding them that 100 degrees Fahrenheit is about 38 degrees Centigrade.
      There is a Temp converter on the BBC website.

      PS It's 113F in Baghdad today - helmet, armor and packpack factor not available.

      We are not defined as much by what we oppose as we are by what we love and our insistance that truth is our compass to find it.

      by Carbide Bit on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 04:35:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Frightening, horrifying and true. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    peraspera, Stand Strong

    Thank you, Hunter.

  •  Yesterday I called these people (6+ / 0-)

    Skinheads in Suits. Why ? Because the skinheads had to learn this stuff from adults somewhere, and I'm assuming you have figured out by now who those adults are . Republican'ts equal the Skinheads in Suits.

    -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

    by OneCrankyDom on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:30:22 PM PDT

    •  Don't dismiss the paid operative factor. (0+ / 0-)

      What they are prepared to do here they have done in other parts of the world ... for generations. The current crowd's contribution is the scale of the domestic operations.

      We are not defined as much by what we oppose as we are by what we love and our insistance that truth is our compass to find it.

      by Carbide Bit on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 04:42:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Question: any laws concerning this? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    •  unfortunately (0+ / 0-)

      as long as they have a cursory statement saying they don't condone or encourage violence, it falls under free speech.

      It's not illegal unless they're saying "Here are the addresses, go rape and pillage"

      "The political function of rights is to protect the minority, (and the smallest minority on earth is the individual)" -Ayn Rand

      by Kaity on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:31:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Lefkow Law (5+ / 0-)

        I think there's a case to be made for outlawing this sort of thing.  To me it suggests the standard the court used in Black where the point of the speech was to threaten.  The threat doesn't come from the content of any disclaimer, but by the possibility raised that any yahoo out there in the world will take the information and commit violence.  And it's not the actual intent of the speaker or the threat, but the perception that counts.

        Clearly, it would help this kind of fact scenario if a person address and number were unlisted, for instance.  But I think there's a strong case to be made for the Lefkow law that would get a VERY fair hearing in the federal courts if it were challenged on 1st amendment grounds.  We can attach it to Hillary's Privacy bill of rights.  

        I'm going to do a diary tonight where I mess around with Black and its line some more and try to flesh this out further.  

      •  It's ugly, but we could do the same to them (0+ / 0-)
        •  Just a reminder: bannable offense (0+ / 0-)

          Before anyone gets carried away, remember that posting personal info about anyone on Daily Kos is an instant bannable offense.


          Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Who watches the watchers?

          by Eleanor A on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 07:28:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Weren't those people posting the addresses (0+ / 0-)

        of abortion doctors successfully sued, even though they said nothing overt about encouraging violence?

      •  Hmm what about identity theft (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Would it be a crime to post a social security number? Bank account number?

        Doesn’t seem right that name and address is ok but more would be called identify theft.

    •  So Rove could... (0+ / 0-)

      Post names and addresses of people who contributed to Islamic charities or made calls to Afghanistan.  Leave the implication of terrorist connection and not be held responsible actions by the Minute Men?

      Don’t think they would go that far, just in case they are listening. But....

    •  there are laws against stalking (0+ / 0-)

      and restraining orders can be issued against individuals.

      I have never seen this applied to a group of people, but the costs of police protection due to crowd behavior and crowd control have been sucessfully assessed against groups.

      Perhaps it's time groups who foment this type hate crime start paying the charges of police departments that are required to protect potential targets.

      I think there is legal precedent to allow charging for this liability.

      Lawyers weigh in?

      Journalistic standards aren't just for 'journalists', anymore.
      We're all journalists, now.- 8.69, - 9.69

      by shpilk on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:48:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's the web equivalent of a burning cross (14+ / 0-)

    on the lawn. Since this behavior is no longer tolerated, they have replaced it with a virtual burning cross that just as clearly intended to identify and harass their victims.

  •  They've lost so much legitimate power that (6+ / 0-)

    violence is inevitable.  

    Prepare to defend yourselves.  

  •  They're always serving HATE by the plate (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lying eyes, Pandoras Box

    Hate mongering needs to be outlawed about the same as drugs or prostitution because it is so deadly to the moral fiber of society.  

    But then...I'm an old hippie so whatthehelldoIknow

    The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. Thomas Jefferson

    by Thea VA on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:37:04 PM PDT

  •  These a-hole have no shame. (0+ / 0-)

    I recommend that we put the home addresses of judges and politicians who do not support the LGBT community. Further, I recommend that we stop playing nice and get descriptive on how some of our public schools are horrifically forcing Christianity down the throats of non-Christian students. We've been generic in our description of these acts. Let's shock the senses of the American people by telling exactly how terrifying some of the things non-Christian students are being forced to endure.

    •  This is a joke, right? (7+ / 0-)

      I was a non-Christian who regularly got beaten up for it in elementary school.  While unpleasant, there's nothing there to "shock the senses" of the American people.  For chrissakes, Abu Ghraib didn't "shock the senses" of the American people, so why would this?

      FWIW, I don't like your posting history.  It smacks of "concern troll", but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

      •  Your story is what I mean. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I think the brainless masses are under the impression that stories like yours are not happening on a daily basis in our public school system. A previous story about this talked in terms of "harassment" and other general terms. What I am suggesting is that we get "graphic" as with your story. Maybe then people will realize the extent of the terror and harassment that non-Christian school children endure on a daily basis.
        Not sure what you mean by my posting history, I'm aggressive in my fighting the theocrats who would deny the LGBT community their fundamental civil rights and do not spare my venom when expressing my outrage.

    •  Please clarify. (0+ / 0-)

      Are you saying we should resort to the same tactics?
      What do you think publishing the home addresses of people who disagree with us would accomplish?

      "But sanctuary never comes without some kind of risk" - Bob Seger

      by YukonJack on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:27:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Was it wrong to reveal who was in the Klan? (0+ / 0-)

        I don't think so. Pull off the hoods of the politicians and judges who would deprive the LGBT community of their civil rights like civil rights organizations did with Klan members in the 50's and 60's.

        •  I had no idea that our judges and politicians (0+ / 0-)

          currently sit behind screens, concealing their identity.  Sorry, but your argument is lost in your hyperbole.

          "But sanctuary never comes without some kind of risk" - Bob Seger

          by YukonJack on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 06:16:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's a real shame (0+ / 0-)

    that they have to resort to such hateful tactics.  

    I seriously feel that these slime balls are really mentally ill and should be in a psych ward somewhere.

    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

    by Mz Kleen on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:38:11 PM PDT

  •  I had an email exchange with Horowitz (3+ / 0-)
  •  Intimidation by White House? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, peraspera, vcmvo2, gpm

    The intimidation campaign against the NY Times sure looked as if it was coordinated, I suspect out of the White House.

  •  Are you saying that no laws were broken (0+ / 0-)

    because they put in a phony caveat about not endorsing violence?  Put all these people away, or so expose them that they will KennyBoy themselves.

  •  Wish I could say I was surprised... (0+ / 0-)

    ...but I'm really, really not.

    Go Joe!

  •  I shouldn't say this... but... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    1 Pennsylvania Avenue.

    Please, do not bring eggs or tomatoes... we are better than that...

  •  Too bad it happens here too (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    It's actually how I started posting here- a classmate of mine from law school called me because his name and (work) address were posted on this site- he ended up getting a ton of really disgusting hate mail as a result (in fairness, the info was in a comment of a diary, rather than a diarist, but on the other hand it never was taken down either)- he called me to find out if he should be calling the police (I was working in criminal law at the time- and some of what he got, especially threats directed towards his wife, whose name was also posted here, definitely fell in the criminal realm).

    He directed me to the site, and I read the diary in question (parts of which I enjoyed, because it made a lot of fun of him, and because also people were also posting things as "fact" that were just flat out wrong) and there it was, right in the comments, some disturbing personal info about him being disseminated.

    I then ended up reading other diaries, and got hooked.  But I am very aware of the ugly side of zealousness.

    If there is anything I have learned from Scooby Doo, it is that the only thing to fear is crooked real estate developers.

    by JakeC on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:44:27 PM PDT

    •  Doesn't surprise me (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peraspera, rockhound

      and it shouldn't happen here, even in the comments by some random one of us.

      But there's also, IMO, a big difference between some random commenter doing this crap -- though it's still unacceptable to me, and should be hidden quickly (and is a bannable offense, IIRC) -- and an actual coordinated campaign by people with large soapboxes to intimidate some random person with whom they disagree.

      •  I totally agree (0+ / 0-)

        and, in retrospect, I should have made that distinction a little stronger in my comment, because obviously Kos and the front pagers have no control over what comments get posted.

        However, the comments in questions (there were several) weren't attacked at all by anyone, so the fact is that plenty of people saw it and didn't blink.

        If there is anything I have learned from Scooby Doo, it is that the only thing to fear is crooked real estate developers.

        by JakeC on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:57:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  We delete those comments when we find them, (4+ / 0-)

      and the commenters are frequently banned from the site. But yes, it does happen on rare occasions.

      It's important for other commenters to troll rate that stuff as soon as they see it, because we may not see the comment in question unless someone brings it to our attention.

      •  Like I described (0+ / 0-)

        It was little more subtle that what is being described in your diary- someone just casually mentioned that, hey, I googled him, and guess where he works, and here's the address in New York City, huh, who'd have thought someone who would say something like that worked in New York City, not too much else about him, just that and something about his marriage to...

        And, it was never deleted.  I noted that because while I told him to hold off on making a criminal complaint, that he should hold onto the letters both for a criminal action, and for a civil action (I was concerned that he was going to get fired because of this, but he said his boss was cool and more appalled that it was happening than concerned about him getting all those letters), where I thought that the fact that it never was deleted might make a difference in the law suit.

        If there is anything I have learned from Scooby Doo, it is that the only thing to fear is crooked real estate developers.

        by JakeC on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:02:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  I would think.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    that the publication and re-publication of home addresses and phone numbers would be grounds for a "harassment" or "threat" suit of some type.  Even if it is just a link to the article..  

    I wonder if the people who's phones and addresses were published just filed a 'shotgun' suit against all of the blogs that link to the "source" site with the obvious intent of stirring up the flames of hate would begin to stop this nonsense.

    Yeah, I know. But Free Speech does not include enabling personal threats, that's why progressives avoid publication such as this.  

    I'm not a lawyer, but I throw the idea up for discussion.  It seems like we either use the law to our advantage or start down the same nasty road that they travel.  

    ... the watchword of true patriotism: "Our country - when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right." - Carl Schurz; Oct. 17, 1899

    by NevDem on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:47:06 PM PDT

  •  Even if (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eeff, peraspera, bree, turnover, FrankFrink

       some idiot went to Rummy's house with ill intent, he would have to get past security first. The same cannot be said for the reporters and photographers whose addresses have been revealed.

    "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power" -Benito Mussolini

    by happy camper on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:49:31 PM PDT

  •  Superb diary, Hunter. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hunter, Babsnc, FrankFrink

    And excellent comments in the thread from everyone. It seems like many of us immediately thought of Krystal Nacht as we were reading the clips from Glenn's piece.

    While this may not be quite in the Krystal Nacht venue, it damn sure reminds me of some KKK activities in this country. The difference, of course, is the potential immediacy of it all brought on by the net and other modern media.

    These kinds of scary, reprehensible bastards and bitches have been around forever. They're the kind of people who terrorized blacks in the south and immigrants in many industrial cities.

    The methods are essentially the same today, but far more threatening because of the modern tools available to them. Even moreso, perhaps, because it appears that the powers-that-be are at least implicitly encouraging them. In that regard, they certainly would seem to qualify as Bush's brownshirts. I certainly don't see him or his ilk condemning such reprehensible rhetoric and behavior.

  •  After being threatened with death ... (26+ / 0-) associates/fans of The Order after talk radio host Alan Berg was assassinated in the driveway of a house I lived before he did, I (illegally) strapped on a 9mm and a shoulder-holster, which I wore every day until I moved from Colorado in 1986.

    My crime: editorially hounding law enforcement to do a better tracking down Berg's racist killers. After I started receiving written threats (glued together from letters cut out of magazines), I went to the police, who took my information and did absolutely nothing more.

    When the "respectable," "mainstream" right adopts the tactics of the white supremacists, they have severed their last tenuous tie to the respectable and mainstream. I take their threats, their address postings, and all the rest of it with deadly seriousness.

  •  Pretty much issuing his targets an LOK (0+ / 0-)

    A License to Kill.

    Maybe it's just me, but I'm thinking that if I were ever the target of such a campaign, I'd have very strong grounds to do whatever it took to protect my family, myself and my property.

    Unless there's no malice and forethought involved in what these right-wing hatemongers are up to.

    Surely not!

    Hey, Republicans: We Brought It On. :)

    by cskendrick on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:51:35 PM PDT

  •  can we respond in kind? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    that is post Malkin's, Horowitz's et al home addresses?
    one of the things that made kristalnacht succeed was the relative passivity of the victims. if we don't stand up and fight it will get worse. bullying always does. it is a sign of their desparation, of course, but we need to fight back and not be the nicey - nice guys anymore.

    •  There are other ways. (7+ / 0-)

      I don't mind if these people live very quiet and secure lives at home. They should. But professionally, their choices, rhetoric, and actions need to be highlighted.

      People don't like extremists. Show them that Horowitz or Malkin is using language that most people would associate with a David Duke, and they lose audience, and their importance. Like Ann Coulter -- she's had to devolve into practically self-parody, in an attempt to keep an audience of people who will pay attention to her. And the worse she gets, the more humiliating things people find out about her, and the smaller her relevance becomes -- now she's mostly comic figure, a far cry from how she used to be treated.

      These people hate being called out. They hate it, and it makes them do nutty, stupid things. They're their own worst enemies, as long as we can keep the lights on them.

      •  Is she a comic figure? (0+ / 0-)

        I'd like to think most people see Coulter for the lunatic she is, but I know more than a few people who think she simply expresses an alternative, if somewhat provocative, viewpoint.

        Please tell me you know of something tangible that shows most people think she's a nut.  I really need something to restore my faith in our political climate.

      •  There ARE other ways (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shockwave, FrankFrink

        Hit 'em where it hurts: on Malkin's website (I felt icky and sullied just looking at it) are nice big banner ads for Circuit City, Netflix... similar ad buyers are found on the other pigfuckers' sites.  Given their stated contributions to United Way, Boyz&Girlz Clubs, etc., I'm sure Mr. Cimino and his brethren would enjoy hearing from us about this issue: (e.g.)
        Bill Cimino, Director of Corporate Communications:

        On an unrelated note, at the bottom of Malkin's yucky webpage is this headline:
        By Michelle Malkin   ·   July 03, 2006 09:33 AM

        Ha! I read it and almost choked on my tofurkey...!

        Russ Feingold: cooler than Batman.

        by yojimbo on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:38:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What&rsquo;s next? (0+ / 0-)

    Your democratic yard sign is burned in your front yard?  Or, a brick is thrown through your front window with a note calling you a F@@#ing liberal!  At what point could this be considered a hate crime?

    George W. Bush is proof that Intelligent Design is a bunch of hooey.

    by slj0kqb on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:54:20 PM PDT

  •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, rockhound

    As pissed off as these lunatics are, just imagine how much worse it might be if our side actually controlled a branch of the federal government.

    The Republican Party: Keeping America Fact-Free Since 2001

    by IndyScott on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:54:36 PM PDT

  •  And when someone defends themselves? (0+ / 0-)

    That's the next horror to come.

    We see that Rush gets off on his Viagra charge, and the threateners here aren't being charged with anything.

    Any bets on what happens to the first poor person who is forced to defend themselves from hateful thugs? I think they'll be railroaded into a manslaughter conviction by the same groups that let the right-wing haters off free.

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross" - Sinclair Lewis

    by Loboguara on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:55:05 PM PDT

  •  Can't we defend against this? (0+ / 0-)

    It seems to me that given the fact that most of this hate filled venom is spewed on the internet, that we could potentially have some defence against it getting too widespread.  

    There have to be some lefty hackers somewhere that could instigate some Denial of Service attacks on these hate sites.  Shut them down before too many people even see the personal info...

    I'm sick of them getting away with spewing this stuff and we just sit back and take it.  We should come up with some slick ways to counter it.

  •  What does the ACLU say about all this? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I mean they're a group of intelligent lawyers -- what legal recourse do they intend to use. Because if they don't have one, than there likely isn't one.

    Throw Richard Pombo out of the House! Support Jerry McNerney

    by Naturegal on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:55:31 PM PDT

  •  The Right has destroyed any middle ground (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    panicbean, FrankFrink

    Over time it will backfire but it's damned scary right now. "Liberal" has been redefined by these mopes as "anyone who does not think like us" but small things show the tide turning--like Olberman's ratings gain--and that the Right has been so radicalized it is leaving it's true mainstream only two choices: Democrats or none-of-the-above.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's as though in the 60s-70s the SDS and the Black Panthers gained policy prominence in the Democratic Party. Merely being broadly on the side of what groups like those supported, like civil rights and an end to the Vietnam war, cost the Democrats the South in 1968 and forward, except for gains after Watergate and the Carter and Clinton presidencies.

    Condi, you were right about a "generational struggle" but it's here, nitwit!

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Who will watch the watchers?)

    by The Crusty Bunker on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:56:35 PM PDT

  •  Fucking mess (7+ / 0-)

    Every time some disconnected sap says "it can't happen here", he or she should one of these Nazi postings tattooed on his/her forehead.

    These people are Nazis, pure and simple.  Don't try to sugar-coat it by calling them fascist or extreme or whatever.  They're filthy fucking Nazis, right down to the DNA level.

    It makes me sick beyond words to think that this is happening in the country I love and that, even worse, every media outlet in the country isn't condemning it.

  •  Remember that Fox News did it too (5+ / 0-)

    They got caught and had to apologize, but the damage was already done. I assume they had to apologize because it was TV and that's different than the internet. Whatever logic that's based on, anyway.
    regret the  :

    In what Fox News officials concede was a mistake, John Loftus, a former U.S. prosecutor, gave out the address Aug. 7, saying it was the home of a Middle Eastern man, Iyad K. Hilal, who was the leader of a terrorist group with ties to those responsible for the July 7 bombings in London.
       Hilal, whom Loftus identified by name during the broadcast, moved out of the house about three years ago. But the consequences were immediate for the Voricks.
       Satellite photos of the house and directions to the residence were posted online. The Voricks told police, who arranged for the content to be taken down. Someone even removed the street sign where the Voricks live to provide some protection.
      The Voricks said they had made several unsuccessful attempts to contact Fox News and Loftus by telephone and e-mail. They want a public apology and correction.
       Both have issued apologies — Fox in a one-line statement to the Los Angeles Times and Loftus in an e-mail to the family — after being contacted by the newspaper. The Voricks say they have yet to see or hear a correction.

    Now it's not quite the same thing, but even outing someone who they claimed was a terrorist, someone not convicted in any court, someone merely connected to a group possibly involved in terrorism is wrong in the same way. It's possible and I think even probable that foxspews will contribute to this stupidity in the near future.  They seem to support malkin in most things. I think that support will lead to more inanity.

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness." Mark Twain

    by dougymi on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:58:46 PM PDT

  •  Demand Police Protection (0+ / 0-)

    Anyone identified in this way should demand police protection around the clock and we should back them up in their requests. Enough demands and the police will realize that it is time to monitor these sites directly. The practice of posting addresses, pictures, etc. accompanied by strongly hostile language should be illegal with or without a pretend 'no violence' comment.

  •  Careful reading of the 'Patriot' Act (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, shpilk, JayBat, FrankFrink

    might identify a section of the law defining such acts as terrorism.

    Notice: This Comment © ROGNM

    by ROGNM on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:05:57 PM PDT

    •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Call it for what it really is.. terrorist actions. Why is this so much different that what Hamas,PLO, OBL have done? All of them have threatened with such tactics and carried them out. Why wait till these haters finally decide to act?

  •  Are we going to return to pre Scopes times, (0+ / 0-)

    become a nation who hates anyone who isn't white, who isn't straight?  Are we going to refuse to allow legal abortions so that women die in dirty back rooms at the hands of a drunk abortionist, or make people wear some kind of identifier (oh like a yellow star, maybe) so that we can all shun them or report them to our local leaders for whatever we deem to be unsavory?

    This shit makes me so angry, it is just total insanity.  Of course, I am not the parent of the 7 yo child who stood up to say, "It makes me unhappy when my classmates call me a 'jew'.  In that case, I may have jumped off the deep end and done things that I would have regretted for a very long time.  And I may have been labeled insane, too.

    These crazy conservatives are attempting to drag this country to a place where none of us would live in peace, or be truly happy citizens.  They have got to be stopped.

    "If you can't stand behind our troops, then, please, feel free to stand in front of them."

    by panicbean on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:07:31 PM PDT

  •  Glenn IS Wrong (5+ / 0-)

    The First Amendment does NOT give you the right to organize a bunch of people to come beat the shit out of me.

    Who Stopped the Klan?

    Who Stopped the Militia Movement?

    More than anyone it was curly-headed Morris Dees.

    He brings CIVIL CASES to court and bankrupts people for the results of their hate-mongering. He handed the keys of the Georgia KKK to the mother of one of their victims.

    You cannot prevent people from inciting to violence. But those students targeted by Malkin CAN MAKE A CIVIL SUIT AGAINST HER. She violated two privacy torts- false light and public disclosure of private facts. They need to find a trial lawyer and stand up. Malkin has lots of money. Let's see her pay to play.

    And this Jewish family CAN SUE the Stop the ACLU. I hope they do. I hope they strip all the supporters of every cent they have.

    •  No organized violence (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The problem here is that what we're seeing isn't organized violence -- its a posting which carefully asks people to NOT engage in violence.  Glenn Greenwald is correct in his statement that what they're doing is both unethical and legal.

  •  Remember Alan Berg (0+ / 0-)

    The right suffered no real consequence when they assassinated Berg other than the few scum bags who did it went to prison. (Read the Wikipedia entry here.) Will they next time?

    Isn't it time to ask whether the Bush Administration is aiding and abetting right-wing death squads...make that terrorists?

    Bushie, you're doin' a heckuva job!

    by millennialpaine on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:15:33 PM PDT

  •  got to use judo on their asses (0+ / 0-)

    mobilize the full force of Homeland Security/Patriot Act on them, including the Malkins and Coulters.

    They want police state -- give 'em police state!

    Let's make an example of a few of these idiots instead of waiting on the abovementioned Krystallnacht. You all know how that ended up....

  •  Rumsfeld. Has he... (0+ / 0-)

    ...made any kind of statement to clarify this business?  To make it clear it was with his approval, and to denounce the various threats and intrusions on these people.

    I'd like to fantasize him showing up at their door, telling 'em to their faces to CUT IT OUT.  Don't suppose any such thing will happen, but still like to imagine it.

  •  Neanderthal tactics and lynch mob mentality (0+ / 0-)

    It doesn't take much brain power to create these sorts of attacks. We are dealing with primitive life forms lacking in any cognitive skills. They prefer harassment to meaningful dialog because mentally they are not up to the challenge. It is much simpler to identify their victims and hope that the fear of retribution by some of the morally incapacitated and lesser developed slugs who slither in the slime at the feet of these repugnant pundits will drive their victims underground where they are no longer a painful reminder of how debauched this right-wing network of liars and hate-mongers really is.

  •  Conservatism's Continuum of Hate (0+ / 0-)

    Whether the issue concerns gay Americans, 9/11, abortion, judicial appointments or political corruption, a seamless continuum of hate runs from today's governing conservatism through to its most extreme proponents. And that means the GOP differs only in degree - not in kind - from the cartoonish and sometimes criminal likes of Ann Coulter, Fred Phelps or Eric Rudolph.

    For the story, see:
    "Conservatism's Continuum of Hate."

  •  Duh. (0+ / 0-)

    They're fascists.  That's what fascists do.

    Pumped and ready for "the rough and tumble competition of the memetic marketplace."

    by sagra on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:27:24 PM PDT

  •  IN the past (0+ / 0-)

    While in this day and age its blogs in the past it was the mainstream media that played along with these types of tactics. People like Senator Jesse Helms and the ad about health care, the Willie Horton ad used  by Bush senior in 1988, Richard Nixon calling his opponent a Communist among other things. These are just a few of the examples I think of off the top of my head. The tactics may change but the idea behind them remains the same.

  •  good on you, Hunter (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, rockhound, deannakempke

    thanks for your ongoing effort to expose these Nazis for exactly what they are.

    when Hitler ran for Chancellor in '33, no one in Germany could believe that he would actually send thugs to opponents' political rallies to break heads.  But he did it, intimidated his opponents, and won the only election he needed to win.

    these people are using the same kind of tactic.  we need to make sure that we're not in the same kind of "oh, they wouldn't really do that, would they?" mindset as were Hitler's opposition.  These people have the same kind of our-Fuhrer-right-or-wrong, USA uber alles, win-at-all-costs attitude that the Nazis had.

    Good job.

    If you got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in - Grateful Dead

    by mississippi scott on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:30:03 PM PDT

  •  Until the media validates this as a pattern (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    it will largely be ignored. Turn it into a "man bites dog" narrative, and people will get it.

  •  Where does Rocco live? (0+ / 0-)

    He shouldn't be that hard to find.

    Rocco DiPippo

    I'm not advocating that he or his family be harmed,
    it would just be useful information for people to have so they could express their feelings to him.

    I am unable to refute this.

    by joel3000 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:44:29 PM PDT

    •  Rocco off the hook (0+ / 0-)

      Rocco has disassociated himself from the address
      publisher. That was decent of him.

      It's important to not back down against fascist
      tactics. Every time you back down against a fascist you encourage them.

      update: 7/03/2006 2:10PM Yesterday, some mindless, rightwing idiot ran a post urging readers to "hunt down" New York Times employees and their children. He has since edited that segment out of his piece. He also sent readers to this site via a link in the body of that post. Lefty blogs have picked it up and are running with it. I don't blame them.

      I don't know this clown and I take great offense that his post reads in such a way to imply that I'm in cahoots with him. I have no association with the guy and I deplore what he originally said in his post. I've just asked him to de-link me. Hopefully, he'll comply. Below is the text of the note I sent him, which I posted on the comment section of his site:

         "Derek, I would appreciate if you'd delink my site from your post. What
         you originally said in your NYT post is absolutely insane, bordering on evil. I
         do not appreciate the fact that your post was written in such a way to imply
         that we're working together. You don't know me, I don't know you, nor do I care
         to. Although I would have preferred to contact you privately in order to address
         this matter, you do not provide any way to do so on your site. I thank you, in
         advance, for your compliance.---Rocco DiPippo

      Do you digg important stories? If not, why not?

      by joel3000 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:04:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  call it what it is (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shpilk, The Termite, JayBat, QuickSilver

    it's not fascism--it's terrorism.

    Ever wish there were One Big Wiki-Style Clearinghouse for all the GOP Scandals? Well now there is.

    by thereisnospoon on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:50:44 PM PDT

  •  Taunting and Harrassment as a tactic: (0+ / 0-)

    The right having watched their Sock puppet dictator fall in popularity now for almost a yr, is using taunting, threats and harrassment as a tactic to try and pick a fight. Since the anti-war left hasn't given it the usual protests and marches as obvious targets, they need to pick a fight. This is all being cooked up Herr Rove and his gang of brownshirts. The brownshirts would stage provactive actikons as they were called to get the Communists to engage in street fights. This and worse should be expected as a run up to Nov 5th. the Bu$h admin. is looking for reasons to try and cancel or postpone these elections. Let's not give them any.

    "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

    by Blutodog on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:51:49 PM PDT

  •  It's happening on a local level too (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Hunter, shpilk, QuickSilver, Hedwig

    My town had a dust-up between two families (out of a couple hundred at that school) over a picture book called "King and King."  One of the parents is a patsy of Brian Camenker, head of MassResistance, a group opposed to gay marriage.  When the parent's first grade son got into a playground scuffle (over a seat at lunch), Camenker went to the MSM accusing the school administrators of enticing children to "beat up" this kid whose parents oppose gay marriage.  It was SO not the case, but right wing nut jobs published the superintendent's personal phone number and email.  He has received death threats, even one at 4 AM from Japan!  It's insane!

  •  None (0+ / 0-)

    of this surprises me. This is what happens when southern fried fundamentalism goes national. We have been dealing with this type of stuff in the south for years.

    I'm too disgusted right now to think of a sig.

    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:52:53 PM PDT

  •  So? Are we awake yet? Or are we going to sit (0+ / 0-)

    around in some verbal circle jerk for awhile longer?

    If you haven't noticed the right wing in this country declared war on you, and they are prosecuting that war with the clear intention of making you extinct if not as a people as a political philosophy.

    So, are we awake yet?  Or are we going to sit around and jaw and hem and haw and wring our little hands in worry while these people move or are we finally now ready to take the fight to them?

    Because you can't hug this away, you can't debate it away since they are beyond the reach of logic and reason; and you sure as hell can not shame them into a sense of decency that they did not have in the first place!  The only thing that you can do is respond in kind or ratchet it up your response to a new and even more frightening level.

    The only people that are going to save you are yourselves.  There are not going to be a squadron of cavalry sweeping down the hill to save you from the "tender mercies" of the bad guys like in some old Western.  It will totally up to you whether or not you and your family remain free or get rounded up in the middle of the night and rendered off as enemies of the State.

    If you do not have a defensive wing set up already in case actual violence breaks out, it may be time to form one.  If you do not own a firearm, it may be long past time to purchase one and become proficient in its' usage.

    'Cause I hate to break it to you, but those guys on the right are not just blowing smoke!  They really wish to do you physical harm, but as is their wont, they are to big a bunch of pussies to get their hands dirty and will rely upon others to do the actual nasty wet bits.

    But they are no longer your "friends", colleagues, or countrymen; they have become and will continue to be your enemy dreaming of your death every night when they close their eyes.

    If you aren't awake by now, you need to really work on it before the Malkins' and Coulters of the world see to it that you slip into a coma.

    •  Awake (0+ / 0-)

      Yes, awake and aware of exactly what Herr Rove and his hired gang of media Brownshirts are doing. The MSM is just sitting back waiting to report the street clashes aren't they? The MSM loves fighting it sells like nothing else. For that reason and that reason alone we should now pay close attention to what Martin L. King and M. Gandi have taught us about violence. These so called Christians attacking us are anything but and have very little support in the masses right now. Let them bring on the dogs and the fire hoses against whom?
      We shouldn't over react to these media threats because in reality they have NO troops this time. By and large most of the public is on our side. Let them attack the NYTimes and the rest of the "librul" print media it's about time these gentlemen of the print MSM got some of what these bullies have been dealing the rest of us for 5 yrs. now. Let all this hatred and rage roll out of these people it's all just manufactured to try and get a rise out of us. We should just sit back and let it go by and around us because it's just a bunch of BS.

      "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

      by Blutodog on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:09:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ghandi and King (0+ / 0-)
        would not have succeeded if they were not facing an essentially civilized opponent.  One with a sense of shame and fair play, in other words their tactics and strategies only work against a RATIONAL group.

        I am not saying that we should act first, that would be foolish.

        But we should be prepared to fight this two ways:  The Ghandi/King method and the Franklin/Jefferson/and Adams method.

        And anytime you get one of those "knocks on the door" in the middle of the night you need to answer it with a shotgun blast.

        •  Civilized (0+ / 0-)

          I disagree in this case. The people on top are a bunch of "chickenhawks" not even at the level of a southern sheriff and his KKK buddies. I think shaming will do just fine against these hysterical overblown windbags. They only get away with most of this nonsense because they have Fox and talk radio blabbing this crap 24/7. Most people turn it off only a small but terminally brain dead portion of the public even listens to these creeps. I doubt they'll actually resort to violence. Look at what happened in So. Africa. We just need to keep speaking the truth openly and not answering violent hateful talk with the same. Now if they start rounding us up and killing us that's a bit different isn't it? Even then look at how the American Japanese acted to their credit in WW2. Sooner or later these people will run out of steam.

          "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

          by Blutodog on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 04:58:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If they do start (0+ / 0-)
            rounding people up... it will NOT go the way of the Japanese model.

            It will go the way of the German model or the Stalin model of how to deal with political undesirables.  In other words a whole lot of people will be deader then dog shit BEFORE they run out of steam, and that is premised upon them ever running out of steam.

            Never, ever, underestimate the damaging power of a small group of whackos, because they can do a lot more damage then you think they can, and being considered innocuous by those they threaten will only bite you and your children in the ass.

            The Jews didn't think that anything would come of all that blustery talk in the late 20's by a small group of mouth breathers either.

            The lesson of history is you meet the bastards at the door with a loaded gun and you empty it into them before they haul you off for a fate that you do not want to contemplate.

            All it is going to take is for one of the more unhinged people that listens to the drivel coming forth from the likes of Malkin, O'Reilly, or Coulter to snuff out the life of an innocent child of some reporter or representative that is not playing ball according to the rights game plan.

            The only reason that they can make the kind of threats that they do is because they have ZERO to fear from the left in this country..NADA.  They know that they can push, and push, and push some more and the odds are pretty darn high that noone will ball up a fist.  Sure, telling the truth is noble, and it is axiom that one should not seek a fight.  But it also an axiom to not turn away from a fight when it is brought to your doorstep.

            Non-violence would not have worked against the Nazis, it would not have worked against Stalin, and it sure as piss will not work on the right in this country, all it is going to do is give them an overwhelming lead in their body count if and when they get around TO doing anything other then running their faces.  And by the time any kind of defense is offered your numbers are going to be whittled away that the odds will not favor you.

            Now I truly wish that the methods used by King and Ghandi would work in this case, and you may be right and they eventually will work.  But in the mean time even in the best of the worst cases, it is going to see a massive number of good progressives snuffed out or injured.  And it has no flexibility to deal with a more aggressive threat.

            Better to have a plan "B" then not.

            •  Agent provoceturs (0+ / 0-)

              Advocating violence just plays into their game. In the late 60's Nixon's crew perfected the use of people known as agents provoctuers. Maybe, your  of them for all I know?  They used taunting and harrassment tactics then they filled the anti-war movement with these clowns who were always saying get guns fight back etc. That gave Nixon the right to send in the FBI etc.. They did a good job of wiping out many parts of the movement. This is what I suspect they will try to do this time as well. It's not going to work. The left is as you say non-violent and the right is. Facing down bullies doesn't require violence all the time. I totally disagree with your notion that this time it will follow the Hitlerian or Stalinist model. Bu$hCo is without a doubt trying to create an authouritarian state but that isn't the same as a Totalitarian state with camps etc. So stop trying to make this into a reason to promote violence here. GO AWAY TROLL!

              "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

              by Blutodog on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 06:55:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry you think it is trollish (0+ / 0-)

                to advise people to keep their options open.  For all I know you could also be a plant trying to lull the left into being lambs easily lead to the slaughter...

                And for someone who has the sig that you do, that seems a bit of a non sequitur; at least to me.  

                I am no more an agent provocateur then you are.  I am just a bit more concerned about the worst case scenario then apparently you are.  And that probably stems from my spending far to much of my time in junior and senior high school intervening when pacifist kids were getting the shit kicked out of them by the kids that grew up in all likelihood to be the douche bag psychos on the right.

                So I know with an absolute certainty that they WILL resort to violence at some point, they did it when we all were kids, they did it when our parents were marching in the streets to stop a war and free a people, and they did it when my great grandfather was part of the bonus army.  It is what they do when words give them a headache, and that happens a lot!  

                Now since I have a 2 year old who needs me, I do not have the luxury of taking on faith that when those on the right say that we on the left deserve nothing more then death, and that our children are fair game; that they do not mean it.  

                •  Sig (0+ / 0-)

                  My sig says nothing about violence. Zapata died on his feet surrounded by Gov't goons. So don't you dare accuse me of being violent. We disagree I don't believe they will start gunning people down on the streets here. These folks have worked way to long to get where they are by blowing that way. No, they want us to do the brick throwing and window smashing so they can use police batons on our heads and tear gas.

                  "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

                  by Blutodog on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:24:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Zapata (0+ / 0-)

                    need I remind you was not in the King or Gandhi mold.

                    Do they want us to act FIRST?  Oh yeah they do, and nothing that I have said says that we SHOULD.  Hence the two front method; start with the tactics of King and Gandhi and wait for them to amp up the violence beyond an acceptable level.

                    And need I remind, that King, Gandhi and Malcolm all were assassinated and never had a chance to finish their work.  Don't we have enough martyrs?  Do we truly need a new batch of names to add to memorial of our hearts of good men and woman gunned down for a better world?  

                    Yes, we do disagree.  I believe the threat can become frighteningly real in an instant; and realize that based upon past history that all that is needed to gut the leadership of the progressive cause is a few nut burgers on the other side such as Eric Rudolf, James Earl Ray, etc ad nausium  to "reach for the gold ring and be famous" or do "society a favor".  And I am not willing to see another good man or woman sacrificed for the cause like a lamb.

                    Yes, they have a lot to lose by engaging in violence, not that it has stopped them as any checking on the number of abortion clinics blown up or doctors killed will attest to just to scratch the surface the tiniest bit in regards to the tactics used.  It will always come from some "fringe" element that has been egged on by overly heated and dehumanizing rhetoric with no clear tie to the leadership.  They are after all the masters of deception, double speak and outright lies are they not (see Iraq for proof).  

                    So, yes we disagree on the nature of the threat but do not dain to accuse me of being an agent provocateur.

                    •  Not an AP (0+ / 0-)

                      Ok, so your not an AP. We'll still will have to disagree on the nature and the level of the threat. I agree we have to start at Gandi and King. I never said we shouldn't defend ourselves when and if the time comes. Agreed  the Gandi and King thing is not going to work against machine guns and tanks. But, they have to have cause to put the troops in the streets and peaceful demonstrations aren't that. When they start machine gunning down thousand in peaceful demonstrations they've already lost. If they start doing that all the Fox news shows and Rush Limpdicks in the world aren't going to make the pictures go away are they?  

                      "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

                      by Blutodog on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:02:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  no they won't (0+ / 0-)

                        but if they go that far, there really won't be anyone to care about it around but the terrified thralls and those actually committing the acts.

                        So we are generally in agreement, and that works for me well enough.

                        •  Two Possible scenarios: (0+ / 0-)

                           Here are two possible scenarios that could bring on emergency martial law & rule by presidental decree( which he  already does for all practical purposes anyway.) The banning of all dissent demostrations etc. control and censuring of the opposition press( what's left of it) banning of the left blogosphere.

                          1. Avian Flu pandemic hits and kills hundreds of thousands in first wave of three possible waves. (He's already said publically he would impose some form of martial law in a speech he gave last Nov. on this very eventuality) probability 50%.
                          1. Another 9/11 level terrorist attack on US soil or even against US embassies abroad like 1995's Kenya embassy atack  30% probability.

                           They're just looking for an excuse to permanently hold onto power.

                          "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

                          by Blutodog on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 12:10:27 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I would add in some kind (0+ / 0-)

                            of manufactured outrage or plot a la the Reichstag fire... which I think that this present karfuffle is a trial balloon of.  I would agree that they are looking for some means of holding onto power, which could explain the rather slim pickings on the GOP side of the candidate possibilities for '08; well that and an overwhelming dirth of talent on the bench so to speak...

                          •  Jeb (0+ / 0-)

                            They've already decided on the next Emperor Jeb or Bu$h the third. Why would America want to be without such excellent rule by this family? snark snark!! I'm afraid the fix is already in. McCain doesn't have a prayer and neither do any of the other candidates except maybe Frist. They will keep the power within the ruling clique that's how Dictatorships even so called elected one's work. They have the democracy as a facade thing down pat it just needs some more tuning ooopps, I meant programming didn't I?  Soon will have a democracy almost as good as, well you know, like Russia! LOL!!

                            "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

                            by Blutodog on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:18:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  insert obligatory (0+ / 0-)

                            Jakov Smirnoff joke here...

                          •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

                            Add a turd stir once and you have  Bu$h punch.

                            "It's better to die on your feet then live on your knees" E. Zapata

                            by Blutodog on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 05:36:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

  •  character assassination and intimidation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, FrankFrink

    These tactics are not too different from those used by McCarthy, J.Edgar Hoover, and the Hearst publications (i.e.,Time-Life magazines, via Hedda Hopper, et al.), to name a few, during the so-called McCarthy period (which actually began in 1942)and appears to have targeted supporters of the New Deal. They have now become SOP in politics and the press.

  •  Don't burn the flag! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias, deaniac83, AaronBBrown

    But if there are human beings that don't agree with you - feel free to put their lives in danger.

    Constitutionally protect the fibers of the flag, but not the children of your political opponents.

    The Christian pro-life party.

    "They blamed it on the Islamic fanatics, at the time. [...] That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary."-Handmaid's Tale

    by JLFinch on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 02:58:50 PM PDT

    •  Burn Baby Burn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      esco liberal mom

      Personally I've purchased a large number of high-quality US flags, and will be burning when publicly for each remaining day of the Bush administration.

      Not to worry though, I've also taken out a very large life insurance policy, so that my family will be provided for should I meet an unfortunate accident at the hands of ruffians.

      It's all part of my devious plan to screw the insurance companies, their lobby is stalking me at every turn.

  •  SupportTheACLU (5+ / 0-)

    These "stoptheACLU" stories should be a perfect rallying point for recruiting members.

    Are you a card-carrying member?  If not, why?

    Join here:

    •  support the ACLU (0+ / 0-)

      I'm a member, have been for years, but... biggest problem with the ACLU is that they don't grandstand.  Apparently, to get the American electorate on your side, you need to trumpet every success, no matter how small or ludicrous.

      The ACLU needs to trumpet each time they defend a wingnut, a church, a Khristianist or a Christian, a white heterosexual Southern Republican male, etc.

      If the ACLU does not do this, then all of their efforts will be swamped by the Hate Radio Propogandists.

  •  Your Local Police, get to know them (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Shockwave, deaniac83, AaronS, QuickSilver
    Your local police may be leaning in that anti-Liberal direction.

    Highly recommended to get to know them, do things to support them, join police auxilliary, etc.

    During the Republican Convention in NYC the safest way for protesting groups not to get swept up in mass (random) arrests  was to start chanting: Give the Cops a Contract--at the time their contract was caught in tough renewal negotiations. The chant turned edgy cops into smiling protectors.

    In more hostile areas some of you may have to become the police if Liberals, etc. are to be protected.

    P.S. Time to call on the Prez to SPEAK UP and condemn hate groups?

    •  I don't like the implication of this comment (0+ / 0-)

      For it supposes that the police who were sworn to uphold the law and to protect and serve the citizens of this country, would need some extra motivation to do their job.

      I understand what you're saying, it helps to know the police personally so you're not a nameless faceless complainant or victim. But you seem to be touching on something deeper than that.  A need to ally yourself with those who have the guns, to put it bluntly.

      But the moment you have to placate the police in order for them to do their duty, is the same moment in history when the Republic will have deteriorated to such a point that we've lost the rule of law.

      On the practical side, I live in an urban area where we once had city police forces, but most of those independent police forces have been abolished in favor of a sheriff's office, who continually move personnel around the county.  So it's virtually impossible to build a relationship with officers when there is almost no neighborhood policing any longer.

  •  a test .. (0+ / 0-)

    ...  of the very character of our nation, the ideals it was founded upon.

    The consequences of failure, to confront and deal with the challenges against the very fabric of civilization itself are obvious.

    Some use the Nazis, or Stalinist Russia as a comparison; but this is too easy. These comparisons can be dismissed out of hand by opponents. We have to stop using this terminology - it is weakening our case.

    Use of these terms immediately allows for compartmentialization of the problem, and a debate based upon the weighing in of 'if then' and 'what was' scenarios rapidly ensues. Use of these symbols makes the unique threats against liberty into semantic games.

    Many of the things going on here, attacks on individuals, intimidation and suppression of free speech and religion, these are unique threats against the fabric of our society. These examples have been defended by some in the right by using bullying 'white supremacist tactics'.

    But it's not the tactics that need to be highlighted; it is the very acts themselves.

    What worries me more than the tactics of the extremists, is the dragging of the feet by law enforcement and the courts to address these issues, and lack of statements from responsible politicians and religious 'leaders' to counteract these tactics.

    Journalistic standards aren't just for 'journalists', anymore.
    We're all journalists, now.- 8.69, - 9.69

    by shpilk on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:33:13 PM PDT

  •  They're just following der leader; (0+ / 0-)

    outing Valery Plame, amongst others.

    One pressure point to fight this is the attorney generals of the victim's states.  They should be looking into civil or criminal charges against these people.

    These creeps clearly have guilty knowledge of the fruits of their actions.

    Did you really expect good governance from those who scorn government?

    by Job52 on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:52:36 PM PDT

    •  They even call him 'the leader'. (0+ / 0-)

      That came out in that White House e-mail to Brownie that was revealed recently.

      Reminded me of "England prevails, Leader!' in "V For Vendetta."

      (German for "leader" is of course "Führer."  Italian is "Duce."  Russian is "vozhd'", which is what they called Stalin.)

  •  Is the frog boiling yet? (0+ / 0-)

    After all, many have advocated politically tossing gays over the side for electoral expediency sake... whose next?

    When does the flame get turned up just a little notch higher... not too much mind you... and on just another slightly less demonized "enemy"... are we learning who we are up against yet?


    Mitch Gore

    Republicans believe in training Al-Qaeda, but not in training American workers.

    by Lestatdelc on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:57:17 PM PDT

  •  Rule 303 seems to be about (0+ / 0-)

    the only principle of law these folks respect . . .

    Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

    by Cartoon Peril on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 03:58:00 PM PDT

  •  Religious People to Stand Up for Ethical Behavior (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    FrankFrink, AaronBBrown

    "This hate and harassment is being done in the name of Christianity. Therefore, I think it's incumbent upon Christianity to be the solution."

    by Kimberly Stone on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 01:57:12 PM PDT

    Yes, Kimberly,

    Religious people need to stand up for ethical behavior.  The reason is that they can quote Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Hillel, Mohommed, Bahá'u'lláh, Ghandi, Bonhoffer, Mandela, and so many others better than I can (I am organizationally not religious, but I have noooo problem with Jesus).

    Some non-faith organizations do have partnerships with progressive religous groups who lead missions to the bigoted right. I list some of them here:

    • ACLU This targeted group supports the freedom of expression of both neo-fascist and religious groups.
    • Human Rights Watch (HRW) This article suggests tactics for speaking with Fundamentalists.
    • Human Rights Campaign (HRC) [Religion and Faith]. I refer to Religion and Faith Program Director Harry Knox.
    • Habitat for Humanity The group that follows the advice of the Letter of James (faith without works...?).
    • Freedom From Religion Foundation While this group espouses freedom from religion, they have some really good quizzes on the Christian Bible.
    • Episcopal Church in the United States of America The via media, or the middle way between Catholic and Protestant faiths.
    • United Church of Christ A community of faith that seeks to respond to the Gospel of Jesus Christ in word and deed.
    • Unitarian-Universalist Association  Affirms the inherent worth and dignity of every person, justice, equity and compassion in human relations...
    • Presbyterian Church (USA) Affirms its conviction that neither the Church as the body of Christ, nor Christians as individuals, can be neutral or indifferent toward evil in the world...
    • United Methodist Church  Reconciling congregations affirm the Social Gospel and a commitment to social justice issues that have included abolition, women's suffrage, labor rights, civil rights, and others.

    I am not Jewish, nor Muslim, nor Bahai, nor Buddhist, but I do know that there are many religious groups who stand up for Ethical Behavior. I think these groups are representative of the progressive against dominionists and other christo-fascists.

    • Soka Gakkai International (SGI)-USA An American Buddhist association that promotes world peace and individual happiness based on the teachings of the Nichiren school of Mahayana Buddhism.
    • Progressive Muslim Union Provides a forum, voice, and organizing mechanism to North American Muslims who wish to pursue a progressive intellectual, social and political agenda.
    • Progressive Jewish Alliance A new kind of Jewish organization, that connects Jews to the critical social justice issues of the day in the Jewish tradition of working for tikkun olam.  They say they believe that "to kvetch is human, to act... divine."

    So there are literally voices all around the world. From every religious and non-religious tradition. There are enough smart and educated people in these groups who can articulate ethical behavior in terms of their own and other religious traditions. I repeat, there are oodles of folks who can and should be standing shoulder to shoulder against Dominionists, White Supremacists, and other neo-fascists and general all-around bullies who use religion to intimidate other people.


    Why wouldn't I mention any conservative religious groups? They are not the choir that can sing God's true song. ;-)

  •  LET'S STICK WITH (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    non-violence.  Never adopt the methodolgy of the thugs and the stupid of this world.  Use political wit and ridicule, showing up these poor souls for what they are.  It keeps you viable.

    The TV O'Reilly's etc. are different from skinheads.  They  are viscious and greedy for power and notariety.  I doubt they know what they like or don't like---this is their road to fame and fortune.  If another road appears later that's better, they'll ride that one--after all at least half of the public displays moronic tendencies so they'll never remember.

    Many people are out of work, or in low-paying jobs because that's all that's available,due to Bush's tax cuts and huge war expenses (corporate profits) taking away revenue badly needed in the last 5 years by the states.  The U.S. is headed down the path of vitimization getting poorer and depressed.  This will allow the populace to be exploited, and I mean YOU and ME, by the our present fascist government with corporate control and a  unitary executive (oligarchy)--The Bush Administration's objective. Then they can go forward with colonization of the world and its resources.

    This kind of government flouishes by splitting people up into hate groups. It profits when these groups fight each other.  That keeps the people busy and their attention off the government  This pitting has always gone on in the history of the U.S.,its their repression.  They got hold of 9/11 and the people's "keep us safe", and are swinging it wickedly with constant repetition, over and over again, no let up in sight!

    Facisim will come to America wrapped in the Flag and carrying the Cross.   Sinclair Lewis

  •  A canary in a coalmine coughs (0+ / 0-)

    Glenn Greenwood's excellent article is referenced on my blog in an article entitled, A canary in a coalmine coughs.

    Visit the Schapira Blog, What we know so far ... ... and tell 'em Big Mitch sent ya!

    by BigMitch on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 05:01:38 PM PDT

  •  arm yourselves n/t (0+ / 0-)
  •  Call them what they are... (0+ / 0-)

    For cryin' out loud, when, oh when will we not be so timid to call these thugs exactly what they are - TERRORISTS.

    What else do you call it when someone's aim is to strike terror in the hearts of their foes?

    Let's stop dancing around it, just like everyone dances around calling bush a * gasp * liar, these people are terrorists and should all be brought up on charges and prosecuted as such.

    You keep lyin' when you ought to be truthin' and you keep losin' when you ought to not bet - Nancy Sinatra

    by democracy inaction on Thu Jul 06, 2006 at 06:16:48 PM PDT

  •  Bring em On Mr. President (0+ / 0-)

    All I want to know is how I get on this list.

    For the record, let me just state that I am a gun toting liberal, with an itchy trigger finger.  And I've been itching to try out my new Beowulf 50 .  This baby will cut through the engine block of a Mack truck like butter at 100 yards.  I can only imagine what it'll do to the chest cavity of the first squalling right winger to put toe on my property.

    So if O'Reilly, Malkin, Coulter or any of their little Internet minions want to stop by and teach me a lesson, just remember body armor won't help you.

    I've come to this sorry state as a result of watching my country being hijacked by a traitorous president whose high treason is only still in question by those who don't have any common sense or understanding of how the world works.  Watching my once proud free nation becoming a sink of corruption and despotism has left me deeply depressed, bordering on despair.

    Ever since the Iraq war started, I've been having nightmares, I keep waking up with the blood of Iraqi babies on my hands.  And it won't wash off no matter how hard I scrub. No matter how much I wash I remain unclean.  Just as every American who has a conscience and a heart must also be stained by this dark chapter in our history, for we all must bear ultimate responsibility for allowing this person to become our president.

    At first I was depressed, but now I'm enraged, and that rage grows with the death of every innocent in Iraq, with the death of every young person being used as cannon fodder for the dubious military machinations of George W. Bush, a president who is obviously devoid of any true ethical foundation or moral compass whatsoever. Sic Semper Tyrannis.

    As those who have hijacked the US military through tyrannical means see their power ebbing away as elections approach, I expect they'll find some means to subvert the electoral process in the desperate hope of hanging on to that power.  If they won't relinquish their grip on my country, it must be viciously pried from their grasp by any means necessary.  All we need do is look to our declaration of independence to remind us of our responsibilities as US citizens.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

    "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

    Very soon the time for talking will be over,  time to take up arms against our sea of troubles, and by opposing end them.  

    So in conclusion, if I may quote our tyrannous leader,

    "BRING EM' ON."

    For tyranny cannot prevail against the will of free men.

  •  Rightist, punkass bullies (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    are no match for any of us. I remember as a junior high student; a guy tormented me for the better part of a year. Finally, I said. "I'll meet you in the orange grove at 3:30". He showed, as did about two hundred fellow students. I busted my left hand, (all of the bones) on his face and head. He was so polite for the rest of my public school career.

    My short answer to this diary and thread is: "By whatever means necessary"

    Best to all,


  •  It cuts both ways (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Revealing home addresses is a two-way street, which reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

    Justice belongs to those who claim it, but let the claimant beware lest he create new injustice by his claim and thus set the bloody pendulum of revenge into its inexorable motion.                        [Frank Herbert, The Dosadi Experiment]

  •  Rove's Revenge (0+ / 0-)

       We can't forget Rove's slimy and smear tactics, he has been using for the last thirty years. Rove. the "Prince of thugs" has been grooming his pet bush for years with the same use of lies, backstabbing, and intimidation tactics.  By the way, where is that scoundrel? I haven't heard a peep out of him lately. I know he was able to come up for air, after being given a temporary pass on the indictment. He must have been thrilled, but hidden in the inner darkness of his character he must have been contemplating going after the journalistic fraternity for their betrayal of his "good name." How dare they impeach his righteous holier than thou reputation he has nurtured over the years? I know he he has been hiding under the bushes but you can bet your bottom dollar he is up to no good. I can smell his "being" in the latest attacks on the New York Times. This was not a random ranting but a highly organized and coordinated attack. It served the purpose of gagging the few remaining liberal reporters willing to do the necessary digging into the Bush monstrosity called his Administration. It also serves the purpose of insuring media endorsements for the Novermber elections.  What we have now in the mainstream news and punditry are a group of reporters willing to line up in front of his house for their daily honor to give Rove a blow job.  And they surely get on their knees mind you , while they pay their respects , and their protection fees.
       Rove has been successful I have to admit. For some strange reason I keep remembering John Dean's remarks to Nixon in the middle of the Watergate scandal. He said "there is a cancer in this administration and it will destroy us. (paraphrasing).  Well, that is exactly the same happening with Rove. He is successful just like cancer because of its overpowering and final defeat of healthy tissue and life itself. Rove has infected the Bush administration, the rubberstamp congress, and the majority of wingnut punditry mimicking his  tactical tabloid discourse.
       I have to believe that the majority of Americans are basically decent, hard working people wanting the best for their families, their finances, and the well being of others. I truly think they will finally tire of this insanity and corruption that masquerades as right wing power and they will throw the bums out in the end.  What we perceive as never ending parade of so called successful televison pundits  vomiting on our television screens will eventually fade away as just one more fad that burned itself out.
       Ps. They moved Tucker to after school hours. Good riddance.

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