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On his first campaign stop this past Tuesday in San Diego County, Arnold Schwarzenegger was met with heckling and grumbles - so much so that he had to ask the audience to quiet down at one point - from angry anti-immigrant residents who think the governor's going soft on the cause by backing President Bush's proposed plan for guest workers instead of the more draconian House bill.

From AP:

Afterward, Schwarzenegger told reporters he was troubled by some of the comments and surprised by their tone.

"It was pretty much the first time I saw the intensity of prejudice," said Schwarzenegger, an immigrant himself. "This one woman came up to me and said, 'Stop the invasion.' It was that kind of dialogue, and not, 'Hey, is there something we can do about immigration?' And I think that's going into a dangerous area."

How troubled were you, Arnold? Troubled enough to retract your support of the Minutemen?

Although President Bush has criticized the group as vigilantes, Schwarzenegger said, "They've done a terrific job. And they have cut down the crossing of illegal immigrants by a huge percentage.''

... Members of the Minutemen were delighted at Schwarzenegger's comments, noting he was the first governor to support them.

"Gov. Schwarzenegger is the most responsible politician in the West,'' said Grey Deacon, speaking Thursday from the group's headquarters in Tombstone, Ariz. "He is willing to stand up for what is correct in America.''

All righty, then. The governor warmly praises the efforts of the Minutemen, who in turn praise him as "responsible" and "willing to stand up for what is correct in America." Just what do members of this group think is "correct in America?" Why - surprise! - it's exactly the kind of "dialogue" flirting with the "dangerous area" that the governor encountered in person in La Mesa this week, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks hate groups and hate speech:

"The Minuteman Project is a grassroots effort to bring Americans to the defense of their homeland," reads a recruiting poster. "America is being devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens, drug dealers, and potential terrorists."....

"Immigration or Invasion?" the fliers read. "Non-Whites are turning America into a Third World slum. They come for welfare or to take our jobs. They bring crime. Let's send them home now!"

One Minuteman on the Stormfront forum made his preference clear: "Personally, I'd like to send 'em back in body bags!"

Funny how the Arnold specifically cites being troubled by the phrase, "Stop the invasion," as it dropped from the lips of a voter, but embraces a group that uses it for recruitment purposes. (For excellent extensive research into the Minutemen movement and its rhetoric, I cannot recommend Dave Niewert's series, The March of the Minutemen, highly enough.)

The governor really needs to get out more if this is the first time he's seen the "intensity of the prejudice" on display in California when immigration is brought up.

Schwarzenegger also needs to take some personal responsibility for unleashing the rhetoric of the Minutemen in this state. If Angelides were smart, instead of wasting time accusing the governor of flip-flopping and pandering to the Latino vote (what are campaigns, after all, but a splurging bonanza of non-stop pandering?), he'd force Arnold to disavow his previous endorsement of the vigilante group. Not only is this the right thing to do in terms of trying to tone down the hate speech so that a serious discussion of reforming immigration policy can ensue, it will create a wedge issue as the through-and-through whackjobs sit out the election, turning their hate and bile on their new betrayer, formerly known as "the most responsible politician in the West."

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:15 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Interesting diary (0+ / 0-)

    Kinda shows how California is (at the same time, strangly enough) both the greatest state and by far, the most fucked up.

    Much like the USA is on the world stage.

    •  By far? (5+ / 0-)

      Oh I dunno, there are some states pretty badly off - the stuff coming out of the Florida and Texas legislatures, for example, is truly appalling.

      All states have their problems, and surely the racism inherent to the anti-immigrant movement is a big one, but even then we're not alone in that. The worst nutjobs in Congress on the matter are from Colorado (Tancredo), Wisconsin (Sensenbrenner) and Iowa (King).

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:20:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, yeah I momentarily forgot (0+ / 0-)

        about Texas and Florida, indeed, two stellar candidates for the "fucked up" category.

        But, still, any state that elected Arnold as governor has gotta be at least a nose ahead in that category . . .

      •  not anti-immigrant anti illegal immigrant (5+ / 0-)

        alot of democrats feel the same way. Its a wedge issue for democrats also. The anti illegal immigration feelings are strong in California. Even amongst legal hispanics and liberal whites there is a strong feeling that it's time to stop the flood of illegals into this country. I think if uneducated poor canadians were flooding the country and taxing its social systems, most people would feel the same way. The strategy of getting Ahnold to distance himself from right wing groups like the minutemen is probably going to keep alot  of right wingers out of Schwarzenegger camp. But, tread softly on the ILLEGAL immigration issue in California, I believe it cost Busby the election.

        Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

        by california keefer on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:18:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree (2+ / 0-)

          A lot of otherwise liberal people are a little tense (or more than a little) around the immigration issue.

          The immigration issue is awkward for either party. The Republicans at the national level are torn between their usual ideology of heartlessness and prejudice, and their desire to please employers who benefit from cheap wages. Dems at the national level are torn between their ideology of inclusiveness and tolerance, and the fears of their most loyal constituency, labor.

          I expect individual Republican candidates in particular to try to make an issue of it the fall. Some may be successful, depending on what else is going on in the headlines and how well their Democratic opponents have defined themselves.

          The issue probably did hurt Busby, in part because she did not do enough to establish a strong liberal identity for herself. My impression is that she took a "play it safe" approach in which she hoped to win just by not being a Republican.

          •  I was living for a while in CA50 (3+ / 0-)

            Actually I was commuting once a week down to Carlsbad for work until recently, and was around during the election there.

            It is my estimation, and this was formed by talking to more than a few otherwise very liberal Democrats, that these Democrats had, and have, simply grown tired of the Kennedy-esque mush mouthed platitudes when it comes to illegal immigration.

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:01:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Language trap (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kitten sedaris

              ... Kennedy-esque mush mouthed platitudes when it comes to illegal immigration

              If we accept the conservative frame-- a tidal wave of outsiders is coming to rip us off-- then this language is entirely logical, no, inevitable.

              If we realize that huge numbers of Mexican and Central American immigrants are victims of globalization and unregulated "free trade" just like American workers, then another kind of language becomes reasonable. For example: why do ordinary people always have to pay so that the very rich can become even more rich?

              BTW, love your tag line!

  •  With BUSH - You cant believe your own Eyes!? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bloomer 101



    Be Cautious 
    What you perceive 
    to be the Truth 


    ....click photo for Kramer

  •  'Ahnold' the Populist (4+ / 0-)

    Schwarzenegger has some pretty good handlers and his comeback in the polls since his disasterous special election is close to phenomenal. I find him repugnant on all levels but somehow he seems to get a pass for even the worst of political mistakes.

    Californians. What are ya gonna do?

    You can be sure that Arnold's stance on immigration has been well researched, and has nothing to do with his beliefs. He's the consummate pandering politician, no matter how his spin-meisters hope to portray him as a "leader."

    No Marvin! In God's language, English! -8.88 -5.08

    by SecondComing on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:17:25 PM PDT

  •  Bull's-eye (5+ / 0-)

    Please, keep shooting. This is an important election. Arnold can not have another term. California needs to get back to the people's business.

    > 518,000 American children are in foster care. Got any bandwidth?

    by kck on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:18:20 PM PDT

  •  what's so bad about the minute men? (3+ / 0-)

    someone's gotta protect our borders, and bush doesn't seem to have any answers.

    "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

    by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:19:49 PM PDT

    •  Read the David Neiwert article... (10+ / 0-)

      ...that SusanG linked to, and then come back and have this conversation. The Minutemen are a bunch of overtly racist, proto-fascist thugs.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:21:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...... (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        lynmar
        Hidden by:
        mariachi mama

        They may be in part motivated by xenophobia, but I don't see anything illegal in what they do. In fact, they seem to be the only ones enforcing the law on this issue. The senate's only answer seems to be amnesty. Most americans don't get amnesty when they break laws, so why should Mexicans?

        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:30:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Way to miss the point (0+ / 0-)

          Go read the article...

          I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

          by eugene on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:32:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I read most of it (0+ / 0-)

            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:34:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I read all of it. (5+ / 0-)

            Other than seeing vague attempts to link the group's name to racists, I saw very little, in fact nothing factual, to support any of the contentions made against the organization. I need to see some facts. I'm in the reality-based community, on all issues. I'm just not impressed by anyone saying, "See all these bad people here? Well, the Minutemen are just like them!"

            Nope, does not compute.

            -6.88/-5.64 * You know what's happening. Fight it.

            by John West on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:54:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  exactly (0+ / 0-)

              the minutemen might be racist and kinda mean, but so are a lot of other people.

              "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

              by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:41:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't know if they're racist or mean. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lynmar

                I've never seen any documented proof of either one. I do know they've saved the lives of a few border crossers who were in dire straits, something more than any of us sitting in front of our computers have done.

                -6.88/-5.64 * You know what's happening. Fight it.

                by John West on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:45:35 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  You seem to be looking hard.... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...for a reason to admire them.

                  I've done quite a bit of reading on the topic and never come across a story about the Minutemen saving anybody.  In contrast I have seen many pieces in print and television that document racist motives, racist views, and dangerous or even lethal tactics.

                  You also offer no documented proof for the opinion you offer.  You clearly hold yourself to a lesser standard.

                  "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                  by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:42:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  and you seem to be attacking me for my (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lynmar

                    reality-based views. According to you illegal immigration is both legal and fun.

                    "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                    by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:04:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I said NEITHER (0+ / 0-)

                      You're full of shit.

                      "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                      by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:06:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  What's this -FUN- crap? (0+ / 0-)

                      There is nothing fun about crossing the Arizona desert, my insensitive spoiled elitist redneck prick troll friend.

                      But you wouldn't know anything about that, would you?

                      Sincerely, if you'd ever like to give your reality-based views a little dose of reality, come on down to the border and we'll have ourselves some fun.

                      •  I agree with you. (3+ / 0-)

                        The southern desert is a deadly place at the best of times. I've paddled a couple of hundred miles of it on the Rio Grande around Big Bend. The drug runners and illegal immigrants were all taking their lives in their hands  trying to cross such a place. As I mentioned to a friend during our trip, anything in the desert that doesn't stick you or sting you will bite you or claw you. Then there's intense heat and flash floods. It's not a safe place to be unless one is very knowledgable and very well equipped. And then only marginally so.

                        -6.88/-5.64 * You know what's happening. Fight it.

                        by John West on Sat Jul 29, 2006 at 12:48:05 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  What you have failed to read is not my problem. (0+ / 0-)

                    It is yours. True, I offer no proof that I have seen no factual documentation of racism or hatred among the Minutemen. How can I possibly do that? You too offer no proof whatsoever of your contentions. I find your comment without merit. 'Nuf said.

                    -6.88/-5.64 * You know what's happening. Fight it.

                    by John West on Sat Jul 29, 2006 at 12:38:44 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  I read all of it (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buckhorn okie, makfan

            I don't agree with everything in it...but I agree with this

            Fairbanks is on target in raising the point that the kinds of views that fuel the Minutemen -- particularly the scapegoating of immigrants in a context in which dramatic demographic shifts are occurring -- are well within the mainstream. One might also say that, for civic leaders who understand the dynamics of such things, the trend is quite predictable.

            But it misses the really significant point in all this: How the absorption of extremist Minuteman values into the mainstream represents a real poisoning of the national discourse. Of course, highhanded dismissal won't resolve this. But pretending it represents a new kind of normalcy is not an option, either.

            Rather, it's incumbent on everyone -- the press, the public, and anyone in between -- to recognize that the Minuteman movement's steady march to public applause indicates a kind of radicalization of the mainstream.

            Because when you strip away the bullshit, what is left of the Minutemen is the reality of what they are: a publicity stunt whose entire purpose is to lodge in the public mind the notion that Latinos Are The Problem. The Minutemen are the opening PR volley, as I've said, in a sustained campaign to scapegoat Latino immigrants and whip up public sentiment against them. The undercurrents of this campaign are old and well-established white-supremacist ideologies.

            The fact that it has sucked in many, many well-meaning and otherwise mainstream people is not a mitigating factor. It is, rather, a real cause for concern.

            Immigrant-bashing is a classic racial wedge issue, and one that, over the long term, will hurt the conservatives who adopt it more than it will help them. Still, over the next couple of years, they can destructively drive this wedge right into the heart of our discourse.

            But only if we let them. Fortunately, there are abundant signs -- like the counter-protesters who are turning up everywhere the Minutemen appear -- that they're being recognized for what they are by growing numbers of people. It's imperative, as always, that communities come together, through their church and civic leaders, and make unmistakable statements that haters like the Minutemen do not represent their values. And that's been happening too.

            But the Minutemen are just the start. All over the country, anti-immigrant measures are in the wings now, waiting to be trotted out in a number of states around the country, including Washington. The House just passed a draconian anti-immigration bill that includes building a fence along the Mexico border. Another one -- targeting the birthright citizenship of Latino children -- is working its way through as we speak.

            Hate does not rest. The interests promoting this campaign are relentless. And the long battle has only just begun.

        •  It isn't just Mexicans (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          eugene, mariachi mama, wa ma, makfan, lynmar

          If you had the slightest knowledge on this subject you would recognize that it is Guatemalans, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, and more. You are attempting to over-simplify a complex issue with talking points and xenophobic comments. Of course that is just my opinion and you are welcome to yours

          •  OH PLEASE! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kitten sedaris

            Don't you dare call me a xenophobe. Try being a Jew growing up in South Carolina. Don't tell me I don't know whats it like to be disciminated against. You are the one over-simplifying it. You seem to be saying that anyone who isn't pro-amnesty is a xenophobe.

            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:40:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What's that you say in your comment (0+ / 0-)

              I just read "most of it"

            •  IMHO (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              esquimaux, SeekCa

              it seems to me like he's saying you're xenophobic because you support the minutemen--a group of vigilante anti-immigration thugs.  If you look at what xenophobic means, it'd be hard to disagree.

              •  NO ONE IS ANSWERING ME!!!!!!!!!!!! (0+ / 0-)

                I've asked like 3 or 4 times already, what is it the minutemen do that's so evil? Do they shoot at people, kill people? What? What do they do?

                "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:52:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I personally (0+ / 0-)

                  have not said they are evil.  I do believe, however, that it is the duty of the federal government to enforce federal laws and the duty of the state government to enforce state laws.  Basic to the rule of law is that this occurs and that citizens not try to take the law into their own hands.  It's not about evil but rather the rule of law.  

                  •  And (4+ / 0-)

                    I do believe, however, that it is the duty of the federal government to enforce federal laws and the duty of the state government to enforce state laws

                    What does one do when the federal government or the state government abrogates that responsibility? Out here in California we call this 'taxation without representation', and Judicial Watch has just gotten the nod to sue L.A. over Special Order 40.

                    Do I think some of the MinuteMen are racists? Yes I do. Do I think that all of the MinuteMen are racists? No I do not. It does however serve the pro illegal immigration crowd well to paint them all as such.

                    <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                    by superscalar on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:05:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are correct (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      esquimaux, mariachi mama, wa ma

                      Not all Minutemen are racists.  But enough of them are overt racists, and enough of them have made questionable decisions, that I KNOW I do not want them defending our borders.  I don't want them teaching in our schools, either.

                      This is a job our government should do.  Period.

                      "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                      by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:08:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think we have moved way beyond (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lynmar, kitten sedaris

                        This is a job our government should do.  Period.

                        What the government should do a long time ago, at least here in California where, for a long time now, we have moved on to what the government is doing ... or not doing.

                        <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                        by superscalar on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:11:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The government should also... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...levy fair taxes on stratospheric income and wealth, and reinvest it in education to level the playing field.  For a long time now they have abandoned that responsibility.  Are you suggesting good citizens take matters into their own hands and go on a Robin Hood tear?

                          Because government has failed at something does not mean everyday Joes with 4WDs and Daisy rifles are qualified to do it instead.

                          "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                          by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:14:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  If we don't like what the government is doing... (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          wa ma

                          then we vote new people into office. We don't point rifles at other people. Or have we become like all those countries we purport to hate so much?

                          makfan, San Francisco, -4.25 / -5.33

                          by makfan on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 09:34:51 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  There's lots of things (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      wa ma

                      the government should do, but IN A DEMOCRACY you don't just up and do all of these things the government should do--you persuade the governemtnt to do them

                •  Above (0+ / 0-)

                  I answered your question.

                  "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                  by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:01:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  their fliers have racist tone (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pacific John, The Termite, SeekCa, lynmar

                  "Immigration or Invasion?" the fliers read. "Non-Whites are turning America into a Third World slum. They come for welfare or to take our jobs. They bring crime. Let's send them home now!" "One Minuteman on the Stormfront forum made his preference clear: "Personally, I'd like to send 'em back in body bags!"

                  You have to admit this is over the top.

                  Non-Whites are turning America into a Third World slum.

                  This statement is meant to pander to the racists among their supporters. Being against illegal immigration is not racist. Many legal hispanics are as anti illegal immigrants as white racist are. I think the minutemen bringing the "border security" issue to Americas attention is good. The racist tone used by some of their supporters is not

                  Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

                  by california keefer on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:35:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I have a problem with vigilante justice (0+ / 0-)

                  While many immigrants do break the law to come into the US, I don't think it helps the situation any for vigilantes to point rifles at them.  Last time I checked, intentionally shooting someone was a crime also.

                  makfan, San Francisco, -4.25 / -5.33

                  by makfan on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 09:32:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  SeekCa, you disgust me (0+ / 0-)

            wheter they come directly from mexico or whether they started out is not important, you're basically playing a game political correctness and semantics. If I call them Latinos instead of Mexicans, will that make you happy??  And are you some sort of psychic? How do you know about the extent of my knowledge on a subject such as this one? That is merely an assumption which is backed up by very little evidence.

            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:51:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Why aren't there any ... (6+ / 0-)

          ...Minutemen on the Canadian border if it's not about race? You know, Canada, where potential bombers have actually tried to cross? We've got 1,000 Border Patrol agents for a 4,000-mile border in the north and more than 10,000 agents for the 2,000-mile border in the south.

          •  because most illegals (0+ / 0-)

            come from the mexican border, duh.

            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:41:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So the worry is NOT about 'secure borders'... (6+ / 0-)

              ...the worry is about too many Mexicans.

              •  I'm not talking about terrorism, (3+ / 0-)

                I'm talking about illegal immigration. As far as terrorism is concerned, yes, we probably should guard the canadian border as well. I'm sure everyone will label me as a troll for saying this, but you see, this is the left's biggest problem. If someone disagrees with you, you have to play the race card. Anyone who wants to label me as a racist obviously has never met me before and it is disgusting that someone would call me such a name.

                "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:00:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I didn't call you a racist. You yourself ... (5+ / 0-)

                  ...said the problem is the Mexican border. But the Minutemen's founders, who you and some others here seem to think are good guys, just Wednesday launched  The Minuteman Project:

                  to secure America's borders and prevent illegal aliens from further attacks. Their book, Minutemen: The Battle to Secure America's Borders, promises to be the operational manual for government and citizen action to take back America's security - not only at the borders, but internally.

                  Where did they hold their news conference announcing this? Nogales? Brownsville? The Arizona Desert?

                  Nope. Ground Zero, "the site where terrorists in the U.S. illegally committed the mass murder of nearly 3,000 Americans."

                  Not only were some 500 of those killed in New York NOT Americans, but several of the hijackers also had legal visas.

                  Get a clue.

                  •  this is what happens when a million people (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lynmar, kitten sedaris

                    attack you at once. You guys are barking so loud I don't get the chance to respond.  what I'm saying is that for the issue of illegal immigrations alone, we should guard the borders. terrorism is a separte issue and should be addressed by homeland security.  But just because I'm against illegal immigration, that doesn't make me a racist.

                    "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                    by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:29:11 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Of course ... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      kitten sedaris

                      But just because I'm against illegal immigration, that doesn't make me a racist.

                      Certainly true.

                    •  The border patrol (0+ / 0-)

                      is part of the Dept. of Homeland Security.

                      Also, guarding the borders does not stop all illegal immigration.  This is an interesting article that talks about visa overstays.

                      ATLANTA — As the debate over the 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States continues in the Senate, a large group is getting overlooked: people who enter on legal visas and then never leave.

                      Known as visa overstays, these visitors make up between a third and a half of the illegal immigrants in this country, according to government reports — between 4 million and 6 million people.

            •  And you know this how? (0+ / 0-)

              Figures vary as much as 100% as to how many illegal immigrants are in this country now.  Which makes claims like yours anally derived.

              Now, intuitively, do I think your statement is correct?  Yes.  Do I think it's relevant?  Not particularly.

              "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

              by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:45:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  You seem to want to completely (0+ / 0-)

            Ignore that yes, 82% plus of illegal immigration comes from the southern border, and I suspect the percentage of drugs coming in from the southern border is about the same.

            Or maybe I am mistaking what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that we have 10,000 agents on the northern border, or 2000 agents on the southern border?

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:55:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  There were minutemen here last year (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Termite

            Here's a recap from the local paper.  I think it was just a few bored xenophobic concerned locals who may have watched too much Lou Dobbs and actually believed Mexicans were illegally immigrating via Canada... probably because the minutemen had had such a resounding success at stopping illegal crossings on the southern border.

            I doubt they'll plan another action up here anytime soon.  They didn't find much.

            The Sheriff's Office did not receive any reports from the MM organization about any crimes occurring in Whatcom County. The U.S. Border Patrol reported one contact with the MM wherein MM provided agents second-hand information about a person illegally crossing the border during the early morning hours in eastern Whatcom County. As a result of the information, the Border Patrol located and arrested a U.S. Citizen who illegally re-entered the United States from Canada without inspection.

        •  Troll rated (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wa ma

          for Illegal immigrants=Mexicans

        •  I dont agree with the troll rating here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jmorris724

          did he get it for saying "mexican" or for opposing amnesty ? Or agreeing with the minute men on border security ?

          Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

          by california keefer on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:24:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Consider that people... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades, BeninSC, wa ma

      ...with acceptable or even noble ends can have deplorable means for achieving them.  That pretty much describes the Minutemen.

      If you're one of the "any solution to illegals is a good one" folks, go ahead and hitch up your wagon.

      "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

      by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:28:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  do they shoot the mexicans?? (0+ / 0-)

        do they shoot them when the mexicans try to cross the border?

        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:33:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Is that a serious question? (0+ / 0-)

          Are you asking me for a white paper on the Minutemen?

          Google she is your friend.

          "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

          by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:35:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  seriously... (0+ / 0-)

            what do they do that's so evil?

            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:36:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I refuse to believe you read the article (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              wa ma

              Their rhetoric is racist and divisive, their tactics are strong-arm and often cruel (for example, they have removed water from water drops where border crossing aliens hydrate; several illegals were found dead in the mountains near one of these vacated drops), and more than anything they are VIGILANTES.  There is a reason we do not encourage VIGILANTES in our country, and a reason why a sane person would contemplate their existence as the symptom of societal collapse.

              You will be surprised to find out that I am for immigration reform.  But the Minutemen have it wrong, and are a distraction from that effort.

              "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

              by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:50:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If none of you can answer my question, (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                The Termite

                then you are cowards. Again, what do the minutemen actually do that is so bad. Forget their ideology. What do they actually do that is so evil?

                "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:02:15 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Troll rated (0+ / 0-)

                  Because I'm answering your question.

                  Evil?  Darth Vader evil?  Fine, no.  You win.

                  Wrong?  Absolutely.  If you're not a coward you will respond to what I have laid out.

                  If you knew that removing water from a drop might result in the death of a border crossing illegal alien, would you do it?  What could be the goal of such a tactic?  Is that morally any different than firing a rifle at the same person?

                  "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                  by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:05:47 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  they don't sound that bad (0+ / 2-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hidden by:
                    esquimaux, mariachi mama

                    the water thing isn't that bad. When you're in the middle of the fucking desert, you shouldn't expect to find water anyways. that's like looking for a woman in a gay bar.

                    "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                    by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:14:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      kitten sedaris

                      These are mapped drops.  Places where illegals are instructed to go to find water.

                      "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                      by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:16:21 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  we give them maps? (0+ / 0-)

                        geez, and I thought Affirmative Action gave people free rides. We actually give them maps? What next, a free toaster with every border crossing?

                        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:20:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  With each subsequent post... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...you reveal how ill-informed you are on this topic.

                          "We" don't give them maps.  Sometimes Mexican coyotes sell them, and some are widely shared for free.

                          "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                          by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:23:34 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  don't you get it? (0+ / 0-)

                            you know when burglars try to sneak into other people's houses and they hurt themselves on your property and they sue you for that? that's kinda what this is like. We have absolutely no obligation to provide them water. that is obviously their problem and no one else's, although some of the pro-illegals in here will say otherwise.

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:37:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ugh (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mariachi mama, kitten sedaris

                            I'm not saying we have an obligation to provide them water.  You're twisting my words and it's frankly maddening, okay?

                            The water is THERE.  The Minutemen are REMOVING it.  The immigrant goes where the water is supposed to be and he dies.  Why?  Because that's a better outcome to the Minuteman than letting him live in this country, or than waiting for the political process to deliver a more humane solution.

                            "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                            by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:43:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  not my problem (0+ / 0-)

                            we should be dealing with the problems of Americans, not the problems of others.

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:50:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Aaaaand...scene! (0+ / 0-)

                            "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

                            by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 04:44:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Many people (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            The Termite, kitten sedaris

                            feel that it absolutely is their moral obligation to provide that water.  It is put out by volunteers.

                            The vast, vast majority of people coming across illegally have been displaced by economic conditions caused by policies that were inked in Washington, D.C.  In fact, these policies are the spawn of an ideology know to economists as Neoliberalism, also called "the Washington consensus".

                            And they didn't start coming through the desert until our government started sealing off the urban areas in response to the mass migration caused by these policies.

                            So why shouldn't Americans feel an obligation to help?

                          •  yes (0+ / 0-)

                            Someone would have to do something truly heinous before I'd allow them to die in my backyard when my offering them something so basic as water would have saved them.

                            And for the record, I'm against illegal immigration, although it is obvious to me that something needs to be done, with our leaders' involvement if necessary, to alleviate the extreme poverty and suffering of citizens in neighbor countries, just out of human decency. The current system seems like a terrible one to me, partially because it benefits the very wealthy at the expense of everyone else, and also because it forces people to leave their homelands (and, in many cases, their own children.)

                            To me, people in La Mesa, California have every right to their opinions, and in fact probably more, given the location of their town. Arnold is a fine one to try to demonize other people during election season (snort!)

                            But I see no ideological conflict whatsoever in volunteering to bring water out to save people's lives, while being opposed to completely open and uncontrolled borders.

                            In my opinion, the Minutemen should be bringing many gallons of chilled, purified water and potassium supplements if they want to truly present themselves as straigtforward in their purpose. Someone doesn't have to be dead to be apprehended!

                            Bohemia has no banner. It survives by discretion. - Tennessee Williams

                            by kitten sedaris on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 10:13:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  will you explain to mariachi mama (0+ / 0-)

                        the rules of troll rating? You can't just troll rate someone for disagreeing with you, which is exactly what's she's doing.

                        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:23:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Except (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      The Termite, esquimaux, mariachi mama

                      that when you don't find women in a gay bar the consequence is usually not anywhere near as bad as, for instance, ENDING UP DEAD.

                      the water thing isn't that bad.

                      How would you know?  Have you ever died from dehydration?  This whole line of discussion is absurd.  My bothering to take the time to respond to you is absurd.  You're a right-wing troll who thinks he's a liberal.  Do you really think they deserved to die for illegal entry?  

                      I guess in order to feel sympathy for their plight, you would actually have to consider them human.  Why bother.

                      •  yeah Jeff (0+ / 0-)

                        them complaining about not having water would be like a burglar suing me because he stepped on some glass while trying to rob my house.

                        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:45:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes, I'm aware (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          The Termite

                          that you feel that way.  That's what makes you a redneck troll.  You believe that people deserve to die for trying to feed themselves and their families.

                          •  Oh, is that how it works? (0+ / 0-)

                            Anyone who disagrees with you is a redneck?

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:18:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, actually, if you could read, (0+ / 0-)

                            you'd know you're s redneck troll because you think some of the world's poorest people deserve to die for a civil violation committed in order to save their own lives and the lives of their families.

                            But then you wouldn't know it's a civil violation because you're a redneck troll whos too stupid and intolerant to bother to do 5 minutes of research before condemning poor people to death for the crime of self-preservation.

                          •  oh boo hoo hoo (0+ / 0-)

                            I think I hear violin music playing in the background.  

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:44:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you Michelle Malkin! (0+ / 0-)

                            Boo fricking hoo!

                            Thank you for being honest enough to admit that you don't give a fuck about poor Mexicans.

                            Lets go ahead and add insensitive to the tag.

                            That makes you an insensitive spoiled elitist redneck prick troll.

                            Woo fricking hoo!

                          •  take a chill pill, Jeff (0+ / 0-)

                            dude, take some ritalin and a few horse tranqualizers, and then when you've calmed down a bit, maybe you can actually string together a few coherent sentences

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 11:31:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Jeffy Lube, you are the liberal version of (0+ / 0-)

                            ann coulter.  You're a psychopath who can't stand to hear someone disagree with you.  Illegal immigration is bad for the eonomy. Don't you get it. Lou Dobbs is an economist. Look at this one sentence from wikipedia: Dobbs joined CNN when it launched in 1980, serving as its chief economics correspondent and as host of the business news program CBS News Sunday Morning on CBS. As far as economists are concerned, this guy is the best of the best, that's why CNN chose him. If he says that illegal immigration is bad for the economy, then its got to be true.  Of course, you are more concerned about the well being of Mexicans than the well-being of Americans. I don't know about you pal, but my country comes before any other country.

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Sat Jul 29, 2006 at 12:29:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  and you really think I'm right wing? (0+ / 0-)

                        how would you know? have you ever read any of my non-immigration comments? Apparently your definition of a troll is someone who offers dissent.

                        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:48:08 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You have no respect for human rights. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          The Termite, wa ma

                          You have made that abundantly clear.

                          If you don't like that characterization, then you should speak up for the real victims here, the poor who have been displaced by the heartless greed of global capital.

                          •  that's bogus (0+ / 0-)

                            I favor rights for the people at Gitmo. I also think we need our prison system should be reformed. I guess your vision of me being a right wing troll is something you drool over in hopes of proving your counter arguments against me. Unfortunately for you I've been a life long democrat. But just because Mexico's a fucked up place to live, that's not my problem, nor should it be the problem of any american. these people are on a mission to commit a crime, because in case you didn't notice, sneaking into our country IS a crime. It is not legal and fun the way you'd like it to be.

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:14:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're a flavor-of-the-month phony liberal. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mariachi mama

                            Evidence:

                            But just because Mexico's a fucked up place to live, that's not my problem, nor should it be the problem of any american. these people are on a mission to commit a crime, because in case you didn't notice, sneaking into our country IS a crime. It is not legal and fun the way you'd like it to be.

                            You're a spoiled elitist redneck prick.

                            Mexico wasn't nearly as fucked up before NAFTA and the IMF destroyed the lives of tens of millions of family farmers, which you wouldn't know because you can't be bothered to care, because you're a spoiled elitist redneck prick.

                            They've certainly done a lot to help you.  They pay twice as much in taxes as they use in services, they create twice as many jobs as they fill, they cook the food and wash the dishes and clean the toilets in most restaurants.  They pick most fruit and many vegetables, making them affordable to spoiled elitist redneck pricks like you.

                            But facts don't matter to spoiled elitist redneck prick trolls.

                            What have these people ever done to you?  Can you name one thing?  Has a single undocumented migrant worker ever done anything to hurt you?

                            What the fuck did they ever do to you??

                          •  Jeff keeps using nazi tactics (0+ / 0-)

                            spoiled elitist redneck prick.
                            spoiled elitist redneck prick.
                            spoiled elitist redneck prick.

                            Just because you say something over and over doesn't make it true. That's what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews.Its pathetic that you would resort to such an immoral nazi tactic like that merely because you struggle to defend  something that cannot be defended: your support for ILLEGAL immigration. I guess next on your list will be to show support for armed robbery and gang rapes.

                            you also said:"What have these people ever done to you?  Can you name one thing?  Has a single undocumented migrant worker ever done anything to hurt you?"

                            Actually...They raise taxes and take away jobs from construction workers. I guess they help big corporations by providing them with cheap labor, but in many cases they drive down the wages of hard working americans. so in this case I'm the one standing up for poor people, while you are the "elitist".

                            I've fought with people on both the far right AND the far left on the "internets". If the far right disagrees with you, they call you an elitist. If the far left disagrees with you, you get called a redneck. Jeffy Lube here decided to label me as both. How sweet of him.

                            "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

                            by jmorris724 on Sat Jul 29, 2006 at 12:03:17 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  water is another issue entirely. (0+ / 0-)

                      I've seen a lot of flaming go on here about this issue, and the David Neiwert article/site is always recommended. It would be helpful to see some other links like it, not just the same source all the time; or at the very least, people might give a brief description as to why this writer is reputable to the point that a single source will suffice. I do believe that there are many true liberals who are against illegal immigration in theory and with the current practice, without being racist or lacking compassion. I have sympathized with you in what looks like it was a bit of a pile-on here
                      (I got here late)

                      -- however --

                      your comment on "the water thing" crossed the line for me. Taking away water that might save someone from dying of thirst is so far beyond "protecting the borders" -- I don't know the specifics of the situation, but I don't need to.. if Minutemen or anyone else take away water from spots in the desert where desperate people might find it, people who could die or suffer horribly without it, that is essentially attempted murder.

                      Letting people die is not the answer to anything, as far as I'm concerned.  
                      No one deserves to even come close to dying from dehydration, a truly hideous process.

                      Please don't make it more difficult for the progressives, liberals & dems who disagree with the open borders crowd by making cruel and thoughtless statements like this. It is one thing to believe that a massive and illegal influx of poor people is making things more difficult for the working and middle class citizens of this country; it is quite another to advocate or defend measures so extreme that gruesome deaths could result.

                      I hope that what you said was because if the heat of the moment, and that it resulted more from your feeling ganged-up-on than your real feelings if you thought about it in a calm mood. Seriously, I do not want people to have to die, particularly not like that, because I was that protective of my lifestyle (which, while meager by some standards, would seem like heaven to much of the world's population.)

                      Please tell me you don't either.

                      In keeping with the theme, if i had been around when the flamethrowers were blasting, I would have gladly offered you a (metaphorical) cool beverage.

                      Bohemia has no banner. It survives by discretion. - Tennessee Williams

                      by kitten sedaris on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 10:00:05 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  'What's so bad about the Minute Men?' (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Termite, wa ma

      This isn't just a matter of being a bedfellow with white supremacists, they ARE white supremacists.

      According to evidence gathered by the ALCU, and largely ignored by the media, active members include neo-nazis from the National Alliance. It does not get worse than that. The National Alliance is the origin of the literature which inspired Timothy McVeigh, and the wave of far right violence in the Pacific Northwest. The OKC bombing, according to McVeigh, was taken from the template provided by the Turner Diaries, written by the founder of the neo-nazi group.

  •  Max Udargo has a comic about reaping and sowing (0+ / 0-)

    Specifically, Arnold's obliviousness to the consequences of arrogant behavior.

    Read the whole thing. Six pages, but the payoff is gold.

    From April 2005...

  •  I agree (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, Man Eegee, wa ma

    Stop the invasion!

    Wait, what's that?  

    They're not talking about Iraq?

    Oh.  Nevermind.

    you fight every day, not because of what you hope to achieve, but because it's the right thing to do. - writerscramp

    by ejmw on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:20:56 PM PDT

  •  If I was Angelides (8+ / 0-)

    I would "encourage" an independent group to run ads detailing how Schwartzenegger is an illegal alien because he cheated the visa system (twice) when he came to America. It muddies the water and would spread the intracine fighting. Kinda Rovian tactic that can't hurt and would be fun to watch.

    The Republican Party: The Bridge to Nowhere

    by flounder on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:22:04 PM PDT

  •  Nice catch (4+ / 0-)

    Arnold, the fool, has given plenty of aid and comfort to the Minutemen, our modern version of the SA, and now all of a sudden he realizes the truth of what they are - a group of racist hatemongers.

    One hopes Angelides can benefit from Arnold's failures...

    I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

    by eugene on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:22:09 PM PDT

  •  If only Dems (6+ / 0-)

    attacked, attacked, attacked, this is the perfect opportunity to put the Governator between a rock and a hard place.  If Angelides does the right thing though, it's the kind of action that should be rewarded by the blogosphere--both in terms of praising him and throwing him some bucks.

  •  Oh gee (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kitten sedaris

    Is life getting rough for Governor Girlyman?

    Poor baby.

  •  Demonizing Californians (3+ / 0-)

    Hey, I live in LA, work there too, and completely understand the intensely emotional responses of people living in Southern California to the immigration issue. If you lived in La Mesa with undocumented immigrants running through your backyard at night, you might not have such a holier-than-thou attitude. Yet California mostly does right by the undocumented immigrants. Tarring the average tax payer here with The Minuteman brush is a cheap shot. There is no question that open borders do not make most people, white, brown or black, feel secure. With Mara Salvatrucha 13, the gang from El Salvador, taking over some of the illicit business in SC, people have a right to resent any policy that turns a blind eye to the influx (won't say invasion). I'm no more a racist than anyone at this site may be. Every light has its shadow, to quote Joni Mitchell. But if Democrats in California don't get this it's at their own peril. Fair but firm, Ruy Texiera says about the polls on this issue. See Busby for details.

    The Moe Sizlak Experience, featuring Homer Simpson.

    by lepermessiah on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:24:09 PM PDT

    •  Um, what? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeekCa, wa ma

      Speaking as a native Southern Californian, I think your easy conflation of undocumented immigrants with criminals is deeply wrong. A cheap shot indeed. How does MS 13 have anything to do with the overall tenor of immigrant-bashing coming from the Minutemen? Do you really think the immigrant bashers distinguish between the average undocumented immigrant - a hard working decent human being - and a gang member?

      Dems in California don't have to "get" anything that is wrong, nor should Dems follow voters on whatever idiotic crusade some of them wish to pursue. Someone has to stand up for common sense and basic human dignity in all this.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:34:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wa ma

        The Moe Sizlak Experience, featuring Homer Simpson.

        by lepermessiah on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:42:15 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Conflation (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lynmar

        I think your easy conflation of undocumented immigrants with criminals is deeply wrong

        As is your conflation of anyone who speaks out against illegal immigration as being 'anti-immigrant', although I have no hope that you will cease using that frame.

        By the way:

        • Is Federal tax evasion not a crime?
        • Is State tax evasion not a crime?
        • Is Federal document fraud not a crime?
        • Is State document fraud not a crime?
        • Is Racketeering not a crime?
        • Is Conspiracy not a crime?

        And please don't respond with some moral relativism about how 'they are only trying to feed their families'. I am trying to feed my family too, yet if I resorted to any of these practices to 'feed my family', the government has no problem throwing my ass in jail.

        <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

        by superscalar on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:46:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Does (0+ / 0-)

          every illegal immigrants commit these crimes?  If you are illegal but pay taxes and your employer never asks for papers, then your first four points are already void.

          •  Well then (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kitten sedaris

            If you are illegal but pay taxes and your employer never asks for papers

            • How then do you pay your taxes?
            Beyond that:
            • How do you get a drivers licsense to drive?
            • How do you get a bank account?
            • How do you rent or buy a house?
            • How do you do something as simple as rent a hotel room?

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:00:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  diagree with your disagreement (0+ / 0-)

        I lived next to La Mesa for a while, and not being a native of Southern California, had to live in less affluent areas (if I'd been there all along I might have bought property when it was more affordable - not that you did, I just know that helped some people distance themselves in nicer areas.)

        These issues are real and not some trend or fad for the people there, non-wealthy liberals included - gang members don't ask about your political affiliations before they tag your neighborhood, sell or buy drugs on the street, or worse (shootings, car thefts, etc.)

        Of course the majority of illegal immigrants are not all criminals like that - their only illegal behavior may have been coming here, and possibly other i.d. related stuff they had to do to obtain work (some fraud with social security numbers? I don't know specifics.) But there is an undeniable increase in crime and gang activity that comes along with the wave of immigrants, especially from the poorest areas, where life is not valued highly. It did not seem to me that the previous comment was mixing the two as you interpreted.

        I don't live there anymore, but from what I saw while I did live in California, the immigration situation did need resolution, from all sides- for the sake of everyone involved.  A lot of people say "oh, it's just a border state issue." That's ridiculous. California's just the canary in the coalmine, especially as an example of an essentially liberal state dealing with this kind of issue (in which the Federal government is playing both sides and funding neither.)

        Dems should address the issue with common sense and human dignity, I agree; I may just define it differently.

        Bohemia has no banner. It survives by discretion. - Tennessee Williams

        by kitten sedaris on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 10:39:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Have you been to La Mesa? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      eugene, SeekCa, california keefer

      Pollos running through the back yards of La Mesa?

      Things have changed a whole lot in CA since the bad old days of Prop 187, and Mexicans are more tolerated than hated. That's why the huge protest have not drawn ire, and why business was so tolerant of the boycott a few weeks ago.

      Further, people have had many positive experiences with Mexicans. With construction and remodeling as common as it is, many people like me have been happier with the Mexicans we hire than with the white crews (who typically don't work as hard, are not as nice, are not as honest, have Bush stickers on their oversized trucks....)

      This debate is one the DP needs to sit out, because, like 187, it will bite the GOP in the ass, and like 187, the DP will get caught in the cross fire if we stick our head up.

      •  Is not hiring illegals something to avoid? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lynmar, kitten sedaris

        Here is my problem.

        My thought is that the Democrat party should stand up for the ability of all Americans to earn a decent living.  

        The anecdotal evidence that I have heard indicates that construction worker's salaries have plummented over the past decade or so, largely due to two factors:

        1.  The willingness of contractors to hire "independent contractors" as their work force, and
        1.  The willingness of illegal immigrants to accept wages far below what the average rate as "independent contractors."

        For all the mythology about "jobs Americans won't do," this is not applicable to construction.  However, Americans who wish to work in construction are being paid far less than they were 15 years ago.  How these folk are supposed to provide for their families when someone else (who likely doesn't have the right to work in the USA) will take $8 an hour less for the same work is beyond me.

        I totally disagree with the idea that the party should hunker down.

        I'm a native San Diegan, born and raised within spitting distance of La Mesa.  Illegal immigration is a huge issue.  It is an issue that politicians in this area can not avoid.

        To me, it isn't a question of race, but of legality.  If we remove those who do not have the legal right to work in America, it seems to me that it will benefit those who do have that right.

        Frankly, I'm fairly disgusted with the leadership, or lack thereof, of the party on this issue.  

        Calling those who question why we have allowed an entire sector of our economy, which used to provide living wages to blue collar workers, be largely taken over by people without a legal right to work racist is a cop out.

        •  Right on Gom (0+ / 0-)

          This is THE issue in San Diego and will continue to be so in light of the fact that more enforcement of illegals has occurred since the 50th Special election on June 6th than in the prior 25 years!! This will make any candidate strong on enforcement very difficult to beat if not impossible. Bleading hearts will get lost Busby treatment here namely another costly loss. Bilbray has his teeth in this issue and will not let go as he has been on this issue for 20 years and the entire County knows it. This will result in a double digit win in his reelection bid in November.

  •  God, he is such an embarrassing windsock (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eugene

    He will say whatever the people in the room want to hear.  It is painful to listen to.

    "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

    by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:24:35 PM PDT

    •  You have just insulted windsocks everywhere! n/t (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Termite, SeekCa, wa ma, kitten sedaris

      "Fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." --George W. Bush

      by RevJoe on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:26:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  NO, he isn't, Termite. (0+ / 0-)

      I'd like to see you come to this country with basically nothing and not speaking the language very well, and work yourself up to Governor of California.

      Could you do it?  Would you have that kind of drive?

      Being wrong now and then is human, but he's been right enough enough times to pull himself up by the bootstraps.  He deserves a lot of respect.

      Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.

      by angrytoyrobot on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:29:21 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WTF (9+ / 0-)

        I'm not talking about his drive, and I certainly hope that the burden for being able to criticize our leaders isn't whether we could duplicate their achievements, or else we should just shut this "blog thing" right the fuck down, right the fuck now.

        I am talking about his pandering political expediency, writ large in this diary, which leads him to take contradictory positions on issues of consequence just to make heads nod.

        Apparently it works, even with some Democrats.

        Fuck.

        "That rug really tied the room together." (-4.88, -5.03)

        by The Termite on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:32:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bullshit (4+ / 0-)

        The motherfucker's first act was to try to deprive newborn retarded children of state services. You read that right. The Goodwill Ambassador or the Special Olympics proposed a cut and cap on enrollments at the Lanterman Regional Centers for the developmentally disabled, a move designed to not allow a retarded child to receive services until, literally, an other retarded person fell off the rolls by dying.

        Forget the bullshit about bootstraps, this piece of human filth is roasting in hell.

        Dec. 10, 2003

        By Carl Ingram, Los Angeles Times

        Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the celebrity ambassador for Special Olympics and a passionate advocate for people with autism, mental retardation, cerebral palsy and other developmental disabilities, suddenly has found himself under attack from those whose dignity and rights he has championed.

        At the center of this reversal is the new governor's desire to save money by repealing a pioneering law signed by then-Gov. Ronald Reagan that guarantees services to the disabled.

        The Lanterman Developmental Disabilities Services Act obligates the state to provide about 200,000 residents with "treatment and habilitation" services. Those who cannot fully care for themselves receive help getting fed, dressed, bathed and attended to in their homes by specially trained caregivers. Also guaranteed are medical treatment and such services as transportation and job training sufficient to allow disabled people to become productive.

        The law was enacted in 1969 as a compassionate and less expensive alternative to traditional care at state hospitals where, experts said, disabled people had been warehoused in ghoulish environments. The program accepts all qualified applicants, regardless of age, income or disability, at no cost to the recipient.

      •  Sorry, babe (0+ / 0-)

        He does not deserve an iota of respect from me- calling Dems "girliemen" as a form of insult? I'm girlie, and he can suck it, as far as I'm concerned.

        your own sigline inspires me as I say "enemy, thy name is arnold."

        Bohemia has no banner. It survives by discretion. - Tennessee Williams

        by kitten sedaris on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 10:46:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ah, another Rethug who wants to have it both ways (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eugene, kitten sedaris

    There is little difference between what Arnold is doing and the mixed message of his Rethuglican counterparts who try to have it both ways so they never have to take responsibility for anything while in office. All they do is look ahead to the next catapult toward higher office or cushy appointment or a business venture that will ensure they make more millions while the poor go hungry.

    They'll take credit when things go well (despite their own two-faced approaches that actually do nothing to improve the quality of life) and they'll point the finger at the opposition when things, as they most often do under Rethuglican leadership, head south.

    They're a dime a dozen. You can dress 'em up in expensive Armani suits, but the ol' record just plays the same stagnant tune.

    Shocked, are you, Arnold, that there are people who actually wear their bigotry openly (and proudly) on their sleeve? Where in God's name have you been the last six years?

    Troubled, indeed!

    "Fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." --George W. Bush

    by RevJoe on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:24:57 PM PDT

  •  He's become Pete Wilson on steroids! (n/t) (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pacific John, SeekCa

    "Anybody who says you can't herd cats never tried a can opener."--Jim Hightower

    by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:26:31 PM PDT

  •  Arnold's learning (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    arbiter, angrytoyrobot

    The Governator let the Republicans gain control of his staff, and the disastrous initiative failure was their contribution.

    Now he's back in a campaign for environmental issues and infrastructure bonds in a compromise with the Democratic legislature.

    Frankly, I think we have some of our best achievements in public policy with divided government.

    Gray Davis was an ineffective leader, corrupted by an obvious pay-to play environment by the contributions from polluters, prison guards, and other public employee unions.

    Arnold has been especuially effective in helping stop the theft of local government funds that pay for police, fire, streets, parks, and librariies, by the powerful statewide unions.

    •  It takes time, and the man learns! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aeolus

      He always has.  Getting dumped into a huge job like the one he took on might not have been the wisest idea, but what a leap!

      People on here won't like him just because he's a Republican, but JUST BEING REPUBLICAN doesn't make you daemon spawn.

      Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.

      by angrytoyrobot on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:31:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  reap what you sow (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aeolus, The Termite, bloomer 101

      Arnold wants all the perks of being a Republican without having to deal with the baggage.  He doesn't get to have it both ways.  Poor Arnold.

      Agreed with your comment about the divided government.  Not so sure about "theft" by the state unions, but we'll just have to disagree on that one.

      •  Prisons and prison guards union (0+ / 0-)

        Democrats, and especially Gray Davis, have taken the money from the prison guards' union as they have created a massive racist prison system that is worse than totalitarian societies.

        •  No fucking reply (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ElMateo

          Somehow Kossacks manage not to reply to any thread about Democrats' complicity in creating the largest, most racist gulag in the world.

          Excuse the language, but how can we be complicit in this massive incarceration?

          •  being from CA (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wa ma

            Having lived in CA for most of my life, I really think that most Californians don't know about this.  Even some of the activists I knew at UC Berkeley weren't informed about our prison system.  

            You should diary about it, if you've got the info, because our "prison-industrial complex" is getting out of control.  Kossacks ouught to know about it and make it an issue.

            You can't fool all the people all of the time, but if you fool the right ones the rest will fall in line.

            by ElMateo on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:45:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  wanted to... need to learn more, got here late. (0+ / 0-)

            why not do a diary? I just peeked and it doesn't look like you have recently.
            I'd be very interested, am betting others would too but didn't comment due to lack of knowledge.

            Bohemia has no banner. It survives by discretion. - Tennessee Williams

            by kitten sedaris on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 10:53:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Funny how people from La Mesa, CA (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eugene

    are worried about a Mexican Invasion, given that La Mesa was propbably founded by the Mexicans or the Spanish and was Mexican up until the American Invasion.  If Mexico had olny closed its borders to those Illegal Gringos, California would probably still be Mexican.

    •  All you need to know (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeekCa, wa ma, lynmar, Sarella Sand

      About invasions is this:

      If whites are the invaders: it's OK
      If anyone else are the invaders: it's bad

      At least, that's what those idiots in La Mesa believe.

      I'm not part of a redneck agenda - Green Day

      by eugene on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 02:36:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Just to set the record straight about La Mesa... (0+ / 0-)

      It has a history of tolerance and high educational performance.

      Most likely, the Minutemen types came from  the inland regions of the sort that supported KKK Grand Dragons a couple of decades ago. The rural areas around El Cajon and Santee resemble  Fresno's or Oklahoma's politics.

    •  wrong (0+ / 0-)

      you'd have to talk to the Kumeyaay

      Of course, the Spanish gave them smallpox & other dieases by showing up...

      La Mesa itself sounds like it was founded by white dudes.

      La Mesa

      The first residents of this area were Native Americans known as the Kumeyaay. Later, during the Spanish colonization, this region was part of the vast lands of Mission San Diego de Alcala. When Mexico became independent in 1821, Santiago Arguello was granted 60,000 acres. In 1868, Robert Allison purchased 4,000 acres from the Arguello estate. On this land he operated a ranch and rest stop known as Allison Springs. A land boom began as water and rail transportation came into the area in the 1880's.

      In 1894, A.S. Crowder and Joseph Allison filed the La Mesa Springs subdivision map, and the new town became official. Ed Fletcher and William Gross developed an artist's community in the eastern part of town. Near the downtown village, building of the residential community began in 1906 when Sherman C. Grable purchased 100 acres on Date Avenue.  La Mesa was officially incorporated as a City on February 16, 1912.

      Bohemia has no banner. It survives by discretion. - Tennessee Williams

      by kitten sedaris on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 11:04:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I think Angelides IS smart ... (6+ / 0-)

    ...but I have yet to see much smartness in his campaigning. Three months to go and, so far, the governor's team is putting cleat marks all over him.

    OK, OK. I know most Californians aren't yet paying attention. It's a zillion degrees and 200% humidity and why worry about the gubnatorial race when cows are dropping dead in the Central Valley and people are laid out two to a gurney in Fresno?

    But is there anybody out there who can provide me with some optimism that Angelides will catch fire when Californians DO start paying attention? Cuz, somehow, I don't think Minutemen backers can be counted on to vote for him just because they see Arnie as not doing enough to fix things.

  •  Didnt Arnold (0+ / 0-)

    say that putting water out for migrants in the desert only encourages them and needs to stop? He's fed "the intensity of prejudice" he's so surprised about and he knows it.

  •  The original (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Pacific John, wa ma

    Minutemen quote occurred on right-wing talk radio.  The governor loved to go on there and let out his inner freeper.  The media used to be alerted to these appearances, but the new Arnold 3.0 team is no longer releasing this info to the press.

    The Republicans were really pissed off about his comments about undocumented immigration.  They wanted him to condem those who come here to earn money for their families.  It was quite the dustup in the blogosphere this week.

  •  fucking idiot, Schwartzenegger (0+ / 0-)

    and fucking California idiots who elected him, and the ridiculous excuse for a Democratic Party in CA that couldn't get it together to stop another fucking movie actor clown.

    -8.0, -7.03 don't always believe what you think...

    by claude on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:05:18 PM PDT

  •  What do you expect? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    eugene, The Termite

    The guy has lived in the bubble of celebrity LONG before he went into politics. He has no more idea what the reality is on the streets than he would knowing what the reality of the world is from the set of Conan the Barbarian.

    He is a GOPer because he got extremely rich due to finding a niche in movies where he could parlay his steroid pumped physique into a lucrative movie career, and now wants to keep the millions and being a multimillionaire is somehow a viable option for anyone.

    He is a "don't tax my millions" GOPer who doesn't realize the GOP rode bigotry and xenophobia, plus the pipe dream of "anyone can be a millinaire" play to greed (i.e. the lure of the PowerBall wannabe rich GOPers) to power with wink and nod sops to the very base he seems stunned to discover suddenly at a rally like this.

    Clueless. Fucking clueless.

    cheers,

    Mitch Gore

    Republicans believe in training Al-Qaeda, but not in training American workers.

    by Lestatdelc on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:07:14 PM PDT

  •  Leadership is Important (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RickWn

    There's a lot of misunderstanding of the term leadership. In the military, we study leadership a lot, and it's not just about barking out orders and taking the first spot in a dog trot. In politics, as elsewhere, a leader is not simply somebody who holds the top job. It's somebody with enough vision and courage to motivate people towards a consensus course of action that is in the common good, and enough wisdom to know when to step back and let others frame certain issues and debates.

    I am not opposed to Schwarzenneger purely on job performance. Frankly, and I say this as a lifelong Democrat, he's done just as competent a job as his predecessor. That's not high praise; Sacramento is, following the passage of term limits, an almost completely unworkable place, with the revolving door leading to lobbyists pulling many of the strings. Gray Davis was in many ways symptomatic of the breakdown in true leadership at the state level. This Governor is not truly the big breath of fresh air he made himself out to be so much as a neophyte along for the ride; but neither has he completely sucked at basic administration, where a little ignorance has been occasionally helpful.

    But where I have vehement objections to the Governor is the shallowness of his character -- the lack of leadership. He fails to take clear stands for articulated reasons of principle or policy at nearly every turn. It's difficult to hate the guy personally, because despite the egoism (what pol doesn't suffer from that?) he's not a dirty-politics type at heart. But at the same time, I find few reasons to admire him.

    Immigration is the sterling case in point. If ever there was a person in a position to take a responsible stance on the role of state government in serving its citizenry and making distinctions - of whatever sort - between the rights and responsiblities of citizens vs. those of residents, in the context of forty years of winking at cheap foreign labor being allowed to come over the border, it's an immigrant who has achieved the highest office one can achieve in this state.

    Schwarzenneger, if he had the courage to do so, could bypass the winger silliness on the issue and simply pull a Weicker or a Ventura -- declare himself an independent in fact if the R party insists he adopt a reactionary stance on immigration. The issue took Pete Wilson down, and I don't think the reactionary right is going to change the fact that the vast majority of Californians recognize that migrantes are net contributors to the economy. The federal government has its immigration laws, and it's not the state's job to enforce them or involve itself in those laws one way or the other. It is the job of the state government to fulfill its constitutional obligations to its citizens and residents, and assure the human rights of all who are within its borders.

    There have been many other issues where the Governor has tried to split hairs. Some might call it a pervasive practice of pandering; I simply call it a person who has no clue about Leadership. Groping your way in the dark in the job of Chief Executive is ultimately no way to get things done.

    Schwarzenneger is relatively innocuous, but this state has to be able to do better. I honestly cannot comment in detail about whether Phil Angelides has better leadership capability; I haven't seen much evidence one way or the other, because campaigning is done so broadly in this state.

    Outside of this race, and with particular reference to those of you who are considering public office or running now, I say this: the best way to prove your leadership capabilities is by demonstrating them. No resume, no campaign commercial, no amount of celebrity or pile of connections can replace that in doing your job. Being elected is perhaps a much thornier problem, but leadership in a campaign is at least demonstrable evidence of leadership on the job. Being reactive is a symptom of a lack of leadership capability, and Schwarzenegger is a prime example of that kind of leadership by stumbling along.

    Is "doing the best that you can" the best you can do?

    by TheCrank on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 03:48:33 PM PDT

  •  I am convinced (0+ / 0-)

    I am convinced that 90% of my fellow kossacks would, if possible, make illgal immigration, easy, safe, legal, and fun. So much for being a country of laws.

    "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

    by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 05:35:22 PM PDT

    •  'Make illegal immigration legal' (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeekCa

      hmmm... If we did that, it wouldn't really be illegal immigration anymore would it?

      Can't have that, your burglar analogy would fall to pieces.  Oh, the humanity...

      •  right, we'll let the Mexican immigrants (0+ / 0-)

        get automatic citizenship, while honest, law abiding people from Asia, Europe, and Africa sometimes have to wait years to get their citizenship. Now that's what I call "Fair and Balanced".

        "We're in a three-way tie for third place!" -Joe Lieberman, 2004 NH primary

        by jmorris724 on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 11:36:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What do you expect? (0+ / 0-)

    From a sexual predator like the Gropinator?

    I think he's full of shit.  He playing both sides, trying to leave the impression that he doesn't condone radical anti-imigrant group language, but we all know the Gropinator gleefully supports the nuttiest of wingnuts.  And why not?  He's a Gropinator.  That's what Gropinators do.  That's all they do.

    "I'm no booster of the Horse - I got off that pony a long time ago." ~ Stephen Colbert

    by Subterranean on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 06:12:54 PM PDT

  •  Not enough poor people? (0+ / 0-)

    So let's import them from wherever.

    20 million illegals would be a problem if they were little grey men who arrived in flying saucers.

  •  Arnold says anything to get through the day (0+ / 0-)

    The Governor will say just about anything to get through the day.  He has no core beliefs and is nothing but a celebrity.

    He thought that the Minutemen were doing a great job until he saw that the Hispanic vote was important and sensitive to the the immigration issue.

    He wanted Tom McClintock to he is "running mate" until the California Repubican Party convention was over in February.  Now he never heard of McClintock.

    He adopted a right wing agenda for the special election, but now those ideas are inconvenient and he is running on something else.

    ...and after the election, he will be off on something else.  Anyone who believes one single thing he says is just plain stupid.

  •  Disgusted with Angelides too (0+ / 0-)

    The incompetence of his campaign has got me at least as disgusted as Kos is.

    I'm tired of millionaires running against billionaires. This is horse shit.

    We desperately need Clean Moneyin California. Vote yes on Prop 89 in November!

  •  Angelides - the obviously better choice (0+ / 0-)

    See my diary at “Attn: CA Voters – Bad Arnold News”

    As for the Mexican “invasion”, a lot of misinformation has been spread about the consequences of illegal immigration.  See “Day Without A Mexican.”  If  CA didn’t have a healthy influx of illegal immigrants our economy would stop dead in its tracks.  Illegal Mexican immigrants are literally the backbone of CA’s #1 industry: AGRICULTURE, not Hollywood as most people tend to assume.  

    So CA voters, lets swallow our pride in November and vote for Angelides.  We must put power in Angelides’s hands to take the power out of the hands of Arnold.  And hopefully, we’ll give back the pension that’s owed to my mother who has been teaching special education for over 20 years.

    Pretty, please??

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