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With the rapid growth and Islamization of its muslim citizens, many European nations realize today that the expected process of integration failed in the Muslim population. Negative immigration and natural growth of native Europeans raises a serious alarm : are Europe's culture and identity facing a Gaussian blur? Or even worse : is Europe on its way to become Bat-Ye'or's Eurabia? Part 1.

"Muslim integration in Britain has come to a standstill." This is the conclusion that was reached after a most extensive survey conducted in Muslim Britain by UK's Channel 4 programme "Dispatches". The survey describes a frightening, but very real, situation: while other immigrant communities seem to progressively integrate with time, Britain's Muslims are disengaging themselves from their nations. 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim are more observant than their parents and have a stronger belief in the values of Islam than in the values of Britain. As many as three quarters of Britain's Muslims believe that Shari'ia law is preferable to the laws of the land, and about the same percentage believes that freedom of speech has to be limited in order to prevent any insult to their religion and their prophet. These trends aren't restricted to the uneducated and poor - many of Britain's educated Muslim agree with this and are even highly active in the matter, as demonstrated. ("Youtube" has the entire programme , accessible from the link attached.) Plus , a link to the programme's website for your convenience.
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This worrisome trend is accompanied by A. : fierce Muslim immigration that threatens to tear the very foundations of some European societies. Britain is expected to recieve up to 250,000 immigrants every year, whose vast majority are Muslim. Immigration control institutions raise the alarm:
Sir Andrew Green, the chairman of Migrationwatch, said the figures were "staggering." "They totally demolish the Government's claim that it has a `managed migration' policy. In fact they show that immigration into the UK is out of control." British citizenship has been granted to nearly one million foreign nationals since Labour and Tony Blair came to power in 1997. "Grants of citizenship have quadrupled under the present Government. This is a direct result of their `no limits' immigration policy." "Immigration on this scale is changing the nature of our society without public consent. It is no longer acceptable."
[Source : The Brusseles Journal : http://www.brusselsjournal.com/]
and B. : the relocation of native British to the suburbs and smaller towns, thus increasing the segregation and minorization.
Some Muslim enclaves in Britain have become "no-go" zones for non-muslims.
In oldham , "Asian youths" put up signs warning white people not to enter. (source)
In Bradford , Hindu immigrants are slowly being driven out by the local Muslim population. The local Hindu population describe the process the Bradford in undergoing as "Talibanization". (source)
In an online article , former Muslim dr. Patrick Sookhdeo warned that Muslims will soon be able to form a state within a state and live by Shari'ia law instead of local law. He said that the ICE (Islamic council of Europe) set this goal in 1980. The article was removed for "legal reasons". (source)
We must ask ourselves : is the formal establishment of Shari'ia law as some alternative to british Muslims the next step? (story : Polygamy in Muslim Society)

Originally posted to SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:30 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  hey you get nutters (5+ / 0-)

    in every bunch - that's a very wide paint brush you / this article is/are using.

    The media tends to go - "the sky is falling the sky is falling" when the words Muslim/Islam, or immigration are used in a story.

    The policy needs to be - this is the way _ country is - the way it will stay - feel free to wear what clothes, ideals that you wish - but for goodness sakes - don't start telling other people how to live their lives.

    This also goes for the Evangelical Rightwing Christian's and their view that women's productive organs belong to them.

    /end frustrated rant

    •  I'd disagree, because I love Europe, (0+ / 0-)

      and I want Europe to survive, and if you have traveled around Europe much, you know that Europeans all across the Continent are terrified by the Muslim wave of immigration that threatens the survival of European society itself as the unique historical core of Western society that it is.

      •  terrified of the Jewish wave of immigration (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LondonYank, blueoasis

        ..ooops, sorry, I meant Muslim. . .

        Islamists are the new Jews.

        •  jewish immigrants (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vickie feminist

          have always tried to assimilate into their societies. if you know jewish history - you know that. it didn't work.
          and please , consider the huge cultural and scientific contribution of europe's jews to human civilization against the ignorance and fanaticism of radical muslims .

          We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

          by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:57:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ignorance and fanaticism? What BULLSHIT! (6+ / 0-)

            I spent three months in Dubai last year.  Man, that place is amazing!  Everything is first rate, thought through to the minutest detail, and succeeding.  It's probably a lot like Beirut was being rebuilt before the IDF bombed the shit out it.

            Arabs have been getting degrees in civil engineering for a couple decades now, and it shows in the growth and prosperity all over the Middle East.  

            I'm sick of your racist bullshit.

            "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

            by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:19:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dubai is a bad example, on your part. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marrael, vickie feminist, Eric S
              1. When I say that RADICAL ISLAM is fanatic and hateful , you think it's racism? Please read my comments more carefully.
              1. Did you know that foreign workers (80% of Dubai's population) are forced to give up their passport upon arrival, making it very difficult to return home?
              1. Not to talk about the wee pay, long hours and other injustices. Read about it. You can read can you?

              4.Homosexuality is illegal and there's no freedom of speech.

              I can go on and on.

              We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

              by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:53:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Radical ANYONE is fanatic and hateful, (3+ / 0-)

                and you sound pretty radical to me.  

                My experience of living in Dubai doesn't correlate with your shorthand of conditions there.  

                As a foreign worker, I retained my passport the whole time (except the one afternoon it took to get the visa stamp for the work permit).

                Pay is generous by regional standards, with construction workers largely unionised and having more legal rights than just about anywhere else (including a mandatory 3 hours off in the afternoon during the hottest months).  

                I imagine it's no picnic living as a guest worker in a lot of countries in the region, including Israel.  I'd rather live in Dubai than anywhere else, as would most of the people there.  80 percent of the population are immigrants, which means they voted with their feet and liked what they found.  I lost my British COO of six years to a full time offer from Dubai.

                Dubai is also amazingly tolerant in my experience.  Foreigners who are not Muslim are allowed to pretty much do as they please, so long as they don't offend laws on public behaviour (like couples kissing in public).  I saw a gay couple openly holding hands in a shopping mall precisely because it's okay for men to hold hands there.  They were very, very clearly gay, but no one batted an eyelid.  Try that in Idaho or Mississippi!

                "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

                by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:19:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That tolerant nation Dubai (0+ / 0-)

                  just sent 30 people to jail for ten years because they were gay.

                  We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                  by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:35:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Sounds like the UK. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LondonYank, rockhound

                    Oh, sure, it was a few years ago, but not that long.

                    And how many Americans would love to do the same?

                  •  'Tolerant' Israel (0+ / 0-)

                    While Israel may have very good gay rights laws, that did not stop vicious attacks on Dana International by the religious ferverts in the Knesset. She was the winner of the Eurovision Song Contest in 1998.

                    Her nomination in November to represent Israel in the contest caused a stir among some religious Jews.

                    Several powerful Orthodox lawmakers had even considered trying to topple the government over the issue.

                    Shlomo Ben Izri, a deputy minister and member of the religious Shas party, called her "an abomination."

                    Another member of the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset, Rabbi Shlomo ben Ivri, said: "Undergoing a sex change is worse than a act of sodomy ... choosing her is sending a message of darkness to the world."

                    http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

                    •  HMFG (0+ / 0-)

                      So Israel nominated a transgender for the Eurovision, she won, enjoys huge popularity and fame in Israel , and because some assholes disagree wer'e intolerant? HOW OUTRAGEOUS is that?
                      I guess all Britons tolerate homosexuals. Guess what? the radical muslims you love so much think they need to be stoned to death.

                      We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                      by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:45:40 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Some arseholess (0+ / 0-)

                        They included a government minister and another member of the Knesset.

                        •  Still , a foggy claim. (0+ / 0-)

                          Israel has a very tolerant attitude about Homosexuals , and i'm very proud of that.
                          Arseholes come a dime a dozen, BUT the vast majority of our people likes dana international and listens to her music . Gays serve in the IDF. Israel has several gay MKs and we march proudly with the gays every year all over the country. Israel has a legally recognized union for gays and there are many gay bars/clubs etc.
                          I have lived in Israeli soceity all my life , and I have my grievences , but I think Israelies in general aren't anti-gay , on the contrary.

                          We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                          by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:16:01 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  OK (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, callmecassandra

                            So when some Israelis in the Knesset, including a minister, are arseholes you dismiss it. When some aresholes in the British Muslim community go in for hyperbole, it is an indication of the imminent fall of civilisation. Methinks that like many Israeli leaders you went to the standards store when they had a "two for one" offer.

                          •  Yes, I do. (0+ / 0-)

                            Ofcourse that Jewish ultra-orthodox parties would oppose dana international. That's fairly obvious. I don't know about Gay rights in Britain, but I bet not all of the wig-wearing hogs in the house of lords really adore gays.
                            I don't think Muslims are evil or that they are planning to take over, their taking over is happening all by itself due to sheer numbers, a trend that would intensify in the future.
                            I wouldn't be as worried if they weren't so many radical Muslims and their numbers didn't keep growing all the time.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:12:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  +Neither do youknow about the Lords (0+ / 0-)

                            Wigs are optional for the two Speakers and the only other people to wear formal ones are the Clerks to Parliament. "So many" is also a complete nonsense as the percentage is probaly smaller than BNP members are in the white community.

                            In any case many non-Muslims have embraced aspects of Sharia law. Sharia based bank accounts for example are highly popular with people like the Quakers for their ethical investment policies. As well as forbidding Usuary (the charging of interest), it also means that they will not deal with companies making alcohol, tobacco products or armaments.

                          •  Maybe this would clear matters: (0+ / 0-)

                            England
                            , the tolerant and liberal nation.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:23:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hey (0+ / 0-)

                            I've got a new diary that is getting the GIYUS Megaphonies jumpin up and down,why don't you go and get trollrated there?

              •  And if you want great newspapers (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                IM

                then read the Gulf Times, Gulf News and Khaleej Times are some of the best newspapers I have ever enjoyed with my coffee.

                They are a lot freer criticising the government than any statist USA newspaper I have read in the past ten years, and they have amazingly intelligent letters to the editor from their readers.

                "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

                by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:24:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Please get a grip (5+ / 0-)

        As a European I am not terrified that the survival of our society is threatened by a muslim wave.

        The majority of the 2nd and 3rd generation muslims I know go to school, work, start businesses, enter politics, raise their families and try to define what it means to be a muslim in a western secular society.  

  •  I have to thank you for posting this, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    melo, isis2, Eric S

    even though it's an inflammatory story, and even though I have been one of the strongest critics of the neoconservatives and Israeli foreign policy, which I see as being the fundamental cause of America's problem in the Middle East today.  

    It's apparent from this story that the Muslims are trying to take over British society, and I do believe that there has been a concerted effort by many Muslims to take Europe.

    Many Muslims have been radicalized in the past 30 or 40 years, and I believe Israel and the neoconservatives and those of their ilk, going back to Reagan's Administration, and Nixon's too, are largely to blame.

    Unfortunately for most of us, the Muslims would like nothing more than to take Europe, which they tried to take and almost succeeded in taking twice (once, in the invasion of Spain and France, during the late middle ages, repelled by the Franks) (a second time, in the Ottoman Empire's invasion of the Balkans and Hungary, Poland, and Austria).  The Ottomans fought a holy alliance of Venetians, Spanish and the papal states, as well as fighting the Austrians, Serbs, Poles, Hungarians, and yes, Count Dracula himself, Vlad the Impaler, who it turns out helped to play a key role in preventing the Ottomans from taking over Europe.

    Sadly, it was a close call in both cases.  The Moors almost succeeded in defeating the Franks, and if they had beaten the Franks, then the rest of Europe was easily theirs.  Similarly, the Ottomans very nearly conquered the city of Vienna, which they laid seige to several times.  If they had taken Vienna, the rest of Europe was wide open to them.  It was only possible to defeat the Ottomans by uniting Spanish, Italians, Venetians, Austrians, Poles, Hungarians, Transylvanians, etc., etc., etc.

    Otherwise, today, Europe would be entirely Muslim.  And Bush and the neocons have helped to promote a new Muslim invasion of Europe, through childbirth.  Will the Muslims succeed in dominating Europe by outpopulating the Europeans?  Only time will tell.

  •  Funny i am normally (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    enthusiast, isis2, vickie feminist

    cool about this type of thing and would normally agree that the media blow things out of all proportion. But frankly Muslims and Evangelical Christians and the Catholic church have already managed to reenergise the "religions role in society debate" and to be honest the whole crazy lot of them worry the hell out of me.  
    American does not seem to have this problem.  But in England the problem is concerning.

    "machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines, you are not cattle, you are men" Charlie Chaplin "The Great Dictator"

    by Boru on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:39:45 AM PDT

    •  Fundies (8+ / 0-)
      American does not seem to have this problem.
      You've got to be kidding, right? We've witnessed a classic attempt by fundamentalists over the last decade or so to infiltrate government and shift the ground rules (aka the Constitution) of debate in health and science, as a precursor to whatever else they can get away with. Anyone who laughs at America's religious nuts should Google "dominionism" or even just "Kansas" (fundies' games seem to be all the media play that state gets these days).
  •  The same articles were written in 1910 in USA (12+ / 0-)

    about Poles and Italians.  They were seen as being unable to integrate because of their ethnicity, and being a threat to the USA's values because their first loyalty was to the Pope.  They were also viewed as intellectually inferior, only being suitable for manual labour in the rapidly industrialising northern USA cities.

    I lived through the Moral Majority hysteria that swept America in the late 1970s.  Kids in my high school were handing out Bible verses in the lunchroom to gain converts to their Bible study groups.  It scared me and it scared my teachers, who had never seen teens act like that before.

    The current period of Islamic hysteria would die down pretty damn fast if the USA and UK would stop needlessly invading benign countries in the Islamic world and play a fair and sensible role in settling the Israel-Palestine issues.  Without petrol to feed the fire, the majority of those taking extremist views will settle into the middleground of British politics.

    I'm proud to live in a tolerant nation like Britain.  There are problems now, but nothing that won't be ironed out in a couple decades.

    "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

    by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:43:12 AM PDT

    •  You're hopelessly naive! (0+ / 0-)

      The Poles and Italians did not want to make America into a Muslim State, or a Catholic State, or a Polish or Italian State.  But the Muslims have been trying FOR HUNDREDS, NAY MORE THAN A THOUSAND YEARS TO CONQUER EUROPE!

      You idiot!  How can you deny that a large percentage of the Muslims are up to no good in the UK?  It's true, and liberals should see it as well as anyone does.

      •  Sorry for the harsh rhetoric. (0+ / 0-)

        All I meant to say was that many, many Europeans are terribly frightened about the Muslim invasion that has been taking place in the past 10 or 20 years.  And we can't pretend that it isn't so, unless we'd like to simply step aside and see Europe be governed by Sharia law and the Taliban in about 20 or 30 years, if not sooner.

      •  You're clearly a bigoted loonie (9+ / 0-)

        I live in Britain.  My kids' best friends are Muslim, Bhuddist and Hare Krishna.  

        Since Christianity doesn't really exist here, anyone with profound religious beliefs in adulthood is regarded as deluded and potentially dangerous.  This is the real reason why religious communities tend to self-segregate, whether it is Jewish communities or Islamic communities.  

        I was considered strange among my work colleagues for attending Unitarian chapel.  The Anglican British don't see value in religion outside providing nice venues for weddings, christenings and funerals.  They can't understand why one would get up on a Sunday to go to church (unless they have toddlers and are trying to get into a decent church school, when piety knows no bounds).

        Most British Muslims are British through and through - and their kids will be just fine.

        "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

        by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:55:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I have lived in Britain (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vickie feminist

          now i live in France.  But i know that there is a large difference between London for example and Oldham or Leicester or Leeds.  

          "machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines, you are not cattle, you are men" Charlie Chaplin "The Great Dictator"

          by Boru on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:58:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  words not backed by facts (0+ / 0-)

          every research done in the subject has found that muslim 2nd and 3rd generation become increasingly detached from their society and more radical in their views.
          or do you FEEL what you say is true?

          We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

          by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:07:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  words not backed by facts (0+ / 0-)

          every research done in the subject has found that muslim 2nd and 3rd generation become increasingly detached from their society and more radical in their views.
          or do you FEEL what you say is true?

          We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

          by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:07:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You wrote. . . (8+ / 0-)

        Poles and Italians did not want to make America into a Muslim State.

        I really must bronze that priceless statement.

    •  I agree that the foreign policy (0+ / 0-)

      adds petrol to the fire.  But is Islam blameless?  The very structure of the religion is one of expansion?
      Britain is indeed tolerant but surely many Brits must feel slightly agrieved that they are expected to tolerate their own people killing them.  

      "machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines, you are not cattle, you are men" Charlie Chaplin "The Great Dictator"

      by Boru on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:56:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're used to religious terrorism. (10+ / 0-)

        We've just traded Irish Catholic bombs for British Muslim ones.  No big deal.  Get back on the Tube and get on with life.

        Terrorism is a police matter.  As long as the police are dealing with it, the British will continue to lead their lives normally.  I was amazingly proud of Britain following 7/7 for refusing to blame, refusing to hate, and honestly looking into the motivations of the terrorists.  The British people have conclusively determined that it is the government's failed policies in the Middle East that have radicalised British Muslims today, making Britain a target, and it is correcting those policies which will be the focus going forward.

        "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

        by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:59:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are a remarkably (0+ / 0-)

          enlightened and optimistic person.
             Racial attacks have increased dramatically.  Two men were made to get off the plane recently because they spoke arabic or some such madness.  
          The culture clash occurs in the working class areas not the chattering class areas.  
          England is also the country of the lynch mob and the Sun news paper as well as the Daily  Mail.  The country is definitly on edge at the moment, no?

          "machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines, you are not cattle, you are men" Charlie Chaplin "The Great Dictator"

          by Boru on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:04:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  72 percent of Britons blame Mid East policies (11+ / 0-)

            for making Britain a target of terrorism.  They are looking at the root cause, not blaming the kids who get swept up in the hysteria or the particular religion of Islam.  Therefore I am not the only person in Britain that thinks that better Middle East policies will pay dividends in promoting better lives for all Britons here at home.

            Sure there are bigots among the working class - and the upper class too.  There are bigots among the Hindus, and among the Jews, and among the Muslims too.  There are bigots all over, but they don't dictate British national policies for the most part.  And I don't think they ever will.  

            Britons are very passionate about preserving their civil liberties, whatever their background.  That will increasingly determine what happens from now on, and as the latest airline bombing case falls apart from thin evidence, Britons are becoming even more determined to strengthen and preserve their civil rights.  They see the threat of Tony Blair unrestrained by law as more dangerous than the threat of terrorism.

            I only wish Americans were as enlightened.

            "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

            by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:10:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I too admire the brits for their (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              isis2

              sense of compromise and their passion for civil liberties but i also do not trust polls that much.  And just because they blame the policy does not mean they do not blame Islam.

              My point about the working classes was that this is where the various frustrations of the various tribes manifests itself.  As it did and does in Northern Ireland.  

              The Catholic Churches priests never openly advocated murder.  Nor where the IRA ever acting under the banner of catholicism. British people are also quite  similiar to the Irish in their own minds eye.

              "machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines, you are not cattle, you are men" Charlie Chaplin "The Great Dictator"

              by Boru on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:34:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  ok so you change foreign policies (0+ / 0-)

              and if they want shari'ia law for muslims ?
              give them that too so they won't explode all over the place?

              We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

              by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:11:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The solution to conflict is not higher walls (10+ / 0-)

                arming to the hilt, keeping out the "other", and treating every "other" as a potential terrorist.  That policy has never worked to ensure security and never will - in Israel, Northern Ireland, or any other place.

                I'm glad Europe adopts different policies, broadly aimed at ensuring that conflict is avoided by respecting all people, all faiths, all communities.

                Over time I have no doubts that it will succeed with Muslims, as with others, particularly if the evils in the Middle East are ameliorated by respect for the nations and peoples residing there.  Prosperity and security in the Middle East will do more to reduce immigration from those nations than any amount of fear-mongering in the West.  Education and jobs will ensure integration at home.

                I spent a week up in Jack Straw's Blackburn consituency, canvassing door to door for his opponent, former Ambassador Craig Murray (opposes torture) in the last election.  I was delighted to find the majority Muslim population was fully integrated in every neighbourhood I entered with Anglican Britons, Hindis, and all the other ethnicities in the region.  I could buy Mecca Cola in the takaways, and I could hang in the coffee houses with the young Muslims above the kebab shops.    I'm sure I could find radicalism if I were looking for it, but all the teens I talked to had as their number one concern university tuition fees.

                Peddle your fear-mongering against Muslims somewhere else 'cause I ain't buying!

                "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

                by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:04:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  I don't think the country's on the edge (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            amsterdam, LondonYank, Boru, TruthOfAngels

            Indeed, there's no sign of it at all in my daily life. Yes, two men were made to get off a plane. It shouldn't have happened and it's symptomatic of the paranoia encouraged by the rhetoric of the UK government.

            There has always been a section of society that's racist, xenophobic and, well, stupid. I don't think that section's got bigger, they've got a new target and terrorist plots contrived by a tiny minority to fuel the fire.

  •  I hung around the Balkans (4+ / 0-)

    as Yugoslavia was dying.  This is the kind of talk Milosovich used to use. . .

  •  I'm scared! (3+ / 0-)

    Oh crap, the muslims are coming.

    Some things have changed here (in Finland) but it is not all that much. Some christmas celebrations have changed in public schools. My mom works in a school and she has had some problems when some kids will use religion to create problems. even crossing the church yard is a problem for some.

    Of course, we have had a muslim minority since early 1800. That group hasn't had all that many problems but they don't mix with the other muslims groups (somalis, iraqis and such).

    (interesting sidestory: the whip of the biggest rightwing party is jewish and quite popular. His wife comes from that small muslim minority)

    In Sweden they have some problems with the immigrants, unemployement is a big problem. It is not always that there aren't jobs but some have chosen not to work ( you make lot of babies = you get state money). If you don't spend it all on booze, you should survive.

    One more thing, if we can get rid of these muslims, can we also add the jews to the list? And the Romani people too, we have too many. To me the Polish catholic nuts are as much a threat as are muslims.
    And the Russians are trying to smoke us out!

    Extremists are a threat but they come in all forms.

    •  please , enlighten me. (0+ / 0-)

      i'd like the name of one european jewish terrorist organization, as opposed to tens of muslim ones.
      (and kahana hai is not european)

      We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

      by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:10:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Colman, LondonYank, rockhound, viscerality

        The last time i checked the IDF has killed more of my fellow countrymen this year than Hamas or Al Qaida. OI think. We don't ususally lose people in terrorist attacks. In fact, the only suicide bomber here was a christian man(can't remember if they said it, but he was very likely a christian)

        Mossad? They did kill a man in Norway. It was a case of mistaken identity but i guess killing foreign citizens in a foreign country is close to terrorism?

        But why would you need a jewish terrorist group in Europe?

        •  so the answer is 'i don't have one'. ok. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eric S
          1. Are you finnish? Is the IDF killing fins?

          please give me links.

          1. It's not terrorism because the intent wasn't to terrorize. Actually , i'd bet the Mossad people would love it if nobody knew about that.
          1. Why would you need a muslim terrorist group in Europe? Europe is very tolerant towards muslims, so why so many of them hold such radical views?

          We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

          by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:23:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Did i miss something (4+ / 0-)

            I missed you point completely. When did the jews come into this ?

            1. Yes. here
            1. ok, i won't call it terrorism. It was something even more disgusting. A state policy. Only criminal states have such policies.

            3.

            Yitzhak Shamir wrote an article entitled
            "Terror" for the journal of the terrorist organization he headed (Lehi) in which he proposed to "dismiss all the
            'phobia' and babble against terror with simple, obvious arguments." "Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish
            tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war," he wrote, and "We are very far from any moral
            hesitations when concerned with the national struggle." "First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the
            political war appropriate for the circumstances of today
            , and its task is a major one: it demonstrates in the
            clearest language, heard throughout the world including by our unfortunate brethren outside the gates of this
            country, our war against the occupier."

            Chomsky, pirates and emperors (new edition) P.75

            I guess if Israel is willing to elect people like that, we should be very afraid of them?

            •  I'm glad you answered (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LondonYank, rockhound

              I could not find a way to answer who was killed without being rude.

              I can not understand how the Nationalities of the 4 UN observers are not remembered, they were true heroes.

            •  I'll explain. (0+ / 0-)

              One more thing, if we can get rid of these muslims, can we also add the jews to the list? And the Romani people too, we have too many. To me the Polish catholic nuts are as much a threat as are muslims.

              You tried to equate Europe's Muslims with Europe's Jews and other minorities when there is absolutely no place for comparison. Certainly where concerning home-grown terror and separatist views.

              1. I forgot , a fin did die on that occasion. You are right. But I hope you understand that nobody intended to kill him and that Hizballah was firing from that post.
              1. Is killing innocent people in Europe an Israeli policy? Or are you using empty rhetoric as usual to make your point? In the 60 years that Israel existed it only happend twice.

              And yes , I think every reasonable person would support assassinating terrorists.
              Mossad has tipped off European agencies about terror threats countless times already and saved the lives of countless European.
              Moreover , most European countries are well aware of the presence of Mossad in their country and tend to cooperate with it, because of the written above.
              This secret cooperation in the recent past and probably in the present is described in Eprhaim Halevy's (former head of Mossad) new book - A Man In The Shadow.

              1. Pre-Israel Jews used terrorism to achieve certain political goals. That is an undebated fact.

              You fail to consider the circumstances though:
              6,000,000 Jews murdered in Europe by the Nazis and British refusal to accept Jewish immigrants in post-war Europe , even though most countries refused to accept them. (Is resulted in the well known HA'APALA).
              Jews needed a nation because of their history and acted to get it.
              I know you will refer the Palestinian situation, and I have my answers waiting for you.
              And hey , didn't your country side with the Nazis in WW2? Why did enlightend fins such as yourselves sided with the most evil regime in history?
              So you have a dark history too no? Does it make you evil? Based on your logic : YES.

              We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

              by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:49:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wrong (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LondonYank

                I just added two minorities in order to show that minorities havee been attacked here during our glorious history. Jews, muslims, gays, black people, asians people, catholics ( that i can approve, death to the Pope! ) and such.

                Is killing innocent people in Europe an Israeli policy? Or are you using empty rhetoric as usual to make your point? In the 60 years that Israel existed it only happend twice.

                Targeted killings is a policy. It can lead to "mistakes" and perhaps that's why there is the due process?

                And i doubt the nordic countries have killed Israelis that way?

                And yes , I think every reasonable person would support assassinating terrorists.

                No, it is a crime if there is no legal process. Killing is always risky and it is a judgement that cannot be taken back.

                even though most countries refused to accept them.

                True. I'm not sure how the US treated them after the war but they were not welcome in Europe. And one can't blame jewish people if they wanted to go somewhere where they could be more safe.

                And hey , didn't your country side with the Nazis in WW2? Why did enlightend fins such as yourselves sided with the most evil regime in history?
                So you have a dark history too no? Does it make you evil? Based on your logic : YES.

                Let me quote the holocaust museum:

                Finland fought with Germany against the Soviet Union but did not sign the Tripartite Pact and was not technically part of the Axis alliance.

                Not part of the alliance.

                And no Finnish jews were ever given to the Germans(something that some Jewish leaders did not do in other countries?).In fact, two were granted the iron cross. There was one incident and 8 jews were transported to Germany. Only 1 survived.

                Head of the state police was punished for that ( slap on the wrist, but blame the allies for not punishing  him)

                All possible crimes were cleared by the allied countries. That is the difference, every single crime (if there was any) were punished and that is the difference. If you don't go trough the process, you will carry the guilt.

                Guess who did not punish their criminals?

                But..You are aware that these terrorist acts are celebrated in Israel?

                And the communists killed more than the nazis. How on earth did some call him uncle Joe?

                Why did enlightend fins such as yourselves sided with the most evil regime in history?

                When did i do that?  I'm not 85 years old.

                •  Communist versus Nazis (0+ / 0-)

                  And the communists killed more than the nazis. How on earth did some call him uncle Joe?

                  Because if the Nazis had won, they would have murdered even more than the communists did historically.

                •  Things you 'forgot' to mention. (0+ / 0-)

                  I just added two minorities in order to show that minorities havee been attacked here during our glorious history. Jews, muslims, gays, black people, asians people, catholics ( that i can approve, death to the Pope! ) and such.

                  1. The problem is that there is a differnce between Muslims and other minorities. An Israeli study conducted in The Hebrew University by Dr. Arie Babicz found that 98 percent of all terrorism acts that took place since 1968 were carried out by Muslims or for a Muslim agenda.

                  And please consider the facts I mention in my article. Muslim integration is a complete and utter failure, and by that Muslims differ from all other minorities that became increasinly integrated. You also forgot to mention that most Muslims hold views that stand in direct contradiction to western values and beliefs. You should check out the survey's results and tell me what you think.

                  1. We can debate the legality of targeted killings in another occasion.
                  1. Finland did hand the german the 8 Jewish foreign-nationals that stayed in Finland at the time, so some Jews were indeed handed to the Germans. So... the blood scoreboard reads : Finland 8   Israel 1.

                  And the communists killed more than the nazis. How on earth did some call him uncle Joe?

                  1. Correct me if i'm wrong , but didn't Finland share a strategic alliance with the Soviet Union for a long number of years? Until its collapse actually? So you sided with the Nazis , and when you saw there was no defeating the Russians , you sided with "Uncle Joe".
                  1. Please tell me what terrorist acts are celebrated in Israel.
                  1. I know your'e not 85 years old, I hoped you'd say that. Stop blaming US for the sins of the past. It's not relevant anymore. The Jewish question is , however , more relevant than ever as Israel faces very real threats of extinction.

                  We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                  by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:40:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  forgot? you have no idea what i have omitted (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lipris, LondonYank

                      1.  The problem is that there is a differnce between Muslims and other minorities. An Israeli study conducted in The Hebrew University by Dr. Arie Babicz found that 98 percent  of all terrorism acts that took place since 1968 were carried out by Muslims or for a Muslim agenda.

                    Oh really? How about the Vietnam war? Operation Phoenix? central and south america?

                    Muslims can't compete with the CIA.

                    Finland 8   Israel 1.

                    I did not know they were Israeli citizens?

                    Correct me if i'm wrong , but didn't Finland share a strategic alliance with the Soviet Union for a long number of years? Until its collapse actually? So you sided with the Nazis , and when you saw there was no defeating the Russians , you sided with "Uncle Joe".

                    YYA Agreement

                    "The art of bowing to the East so carefully that it could not be considered mooning the West."

                    Please tell me what terrorist acts are celebrated in Israel.


                    Lavon affair

                    "In March 2005, Israel publicly honored the surviving perpetrators and President Moshe Katsav presented each with a certificate of appreciation for their efforts on behalf of the state, ending decades of official denial by Israel"

                    • Avraham Stern has a stamp issued at this honor.
                    • The king david- hotel bombing is celebrated, ask  the brits how much they enjoy that.

                    Stop blaming US for the sins of the past. It's not relevant anymore. The Jewish question is , however , more relevant than ever as Israel faces very real threats of extinction.

                    Sins of the past have not been investigated and the perps have not been punished.  If you can't face the  ugly reality, then you can't learn anything from it. And it i think it is relevant to point out that Israel has elected terrorist leaders (Menahem Begin for example) and that their leaders have been defending terrorism. How can they now cry over Hamas?

                    "First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the
                    political war appropriate for the circumstances of today"

                    •  la la la (0+ / 0-)
                      1. Is the CIA an ethnic/religious group? That's news to me. I should read Wikipedia more often.
                      1. They would have been Israeli citizens if the Fins didn't ship them to their death.
                      1. I know about the YYA Agreement. That's why I mentioned it.
                      1. Your words reflect poor understanding of Israeli soceity. The Lavon Affair is remembered as a catastrophe in Israeli soceity and taught as a mistake and as criminal behaviour in Israeli schools. Please send me links to the prize thing.
                      1. The King David Bombing celebrated? Sounds like rubbish to me. The Ministry of Education , as official policy , tagged that attack as unjust and criminal.
                      1. Menachem Begin was a terrorist. But he also signed a peace deal with Egypt. Arafat was a terrorist too, (and remained one until his death day).
                      1. Ben-Gurion had the guts to disarm ETZEL and LEHI , by force. Where's that resolve in the Palestinian side?
                      1. We didn't punish our criminals? So did you. You sided with the Nazis. Why wasn't anyone executed for treason? How many innocent people died by the hands of the Fins in WW2? Did anyone even bother to investigate? Here's a country that was chummy with two most evil regimes in history. Please tell me there's nothing wrong with you and mean it. Your'e liberal when it concerns other nations. You can't see your owns problems.
                      1. When the Soviets demanded Honge you went to war. Why? wouldn't giving them that territory just solve so many problems? Wouldn't it save countless lives?

                      Why war then?

                      We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                      by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:34:32 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Lol lol lol? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LondonYank

                        Is the CIA an ethnic/religious group?

                        Hmm, does the CIA act when a certain nation orders them to do so?

                        They would have been Israeli citizens if the Fins didn't ship them to their death.

                        Any evidence ?No? By that logic all jews should move to Israel. That doesn't seem to be the case. Our army killed lot more Soviet jews, but that was in battle. Are you going to cry because of that too? The army stopped them for coming Israeli citizens?

                        Your words reflect poor understanding of Israeli soceity. The Lavon Affair is remembered as a catastrophe in Israeli soceity and taught as a mistake and as criminal behaviour in Israeli schools. Please send me links to the prize thing.

                        Wiki look at the references.

                        King David(wiki):

                        In July 2006, right-wing Israelis including Binyamin Netanyahu attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the bombing, which was organized by the Menachem Begin Centre. The British Ambassador in Tel Aviv and the Consul-General in Jerusalem complained, saying "We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated.". They also protested against an Israeli plaque that claims that people died because the British ignored warning calls, saying it was untrue and "did not absolve those who planted the bomb". The plaque reads "For reasons known only to the British, the hotel was not evacuated”.

                        And ETA is a terror group even though they sometimes call before the bombs kill people.

                        Menachem Begin was a terrorist. But he also signed a peace deal with Egypt. Arafat was a terrorist too, (and remained one until his death day).

                        So, what kind of a nation elects, repeatedly, terrorists to lead the nation?

                        You can't see your owns problems

                        The minute we start to murder people and steal their land(and have clearly racist laws, i will do lot more than you are doing.

                        We didn't punish our criminals? So did you. You sided with the Nazis. Why wasn't anyone executed for treason? How many innocent people died by the hands of the Fins in WW2? Did anyone even bother to investigate? Here's a country that was chummy with two most evil regimes in history. Please tell me there's nothing wrong with you and mean it. Your'e liberal when it concerns other nations. You can't see your owns problems.

                        Where do you see treason?

                        Did you punish Shamir? Sharon? Begin? No? that's right. All(possible) crimes were cleared, ask the allies.

                        How many died? Good question. Tens of thousands died , mostly Russian POW's (and of course the soviets punished if there was anything illegal done to them). And yes, it has been investigated. They were not jewish, so you won't care.

                        And there is nothing wrong with me. Evidently a wise foreign policy that yields results, is a good choice. We didn't lose millions. Wise choice,right?

                        When the Soviets demanded Honge you went to war. Why? wouldn't giving them that territory just solve so many problems? Wouldn't it save countless lives?

                        Hmmm, they demanded lot more than Hankoniemi. Baltic nations did give them what they wanted. How did that work for them? Waht they demanded was the homes for some 3-400k people. Btw, how many palestinians were forced to leave their homes?

                        Why war then?

                        Because the USSR invaded the country.

                        •  The Finnish 'Morality' In Shambles. (0+ / 0-)

                          Celebration? I saw the whole thing on T.V and it wasn't a "celebration". Clearly , the writer of the article is highly biased. There was no cake, no happy music, no re-enactments by chilren (if you wanna see those you should go across the border). A few speeches and everybody went home. As usual. With dignity , The Israeli way.

                          Tell me, did anyone seriously investigate claims made by Alina Sana that up to 500 Jewish POWs were extradited to the Nazis simply because they were Jews? (POW aren't killed in battle) Or her claim that Finnish intelligence knew about the holocaust going on and still did nothing?
                          So the scoreboard really reads 508 - 1 eh?
                          Was anyone punished for that? Hmmmm... no? Damn my suprise.

                          Good foreign policy? And if the Germans had won the war and eradicted Europe's jewry and murdererd tens of millions more? You would have survived. Hell, you would have become a fuc*ing empire! Certainly - a good policy. You sided with Satan and there's no excuse for that. That's the differnce between you and me : I know life is precious but I think that some things are worth dying for. I'm not a nihilist like yourself.

                          Well , Syria wants "just" the Golan Heights , The Palestinians "only" want The West Bank and The Gaza Strip. Israel is tiny in comparison to the vast Arab nations around it. We gave the Palestinians land and we saw how it worked for us. More death.
                          The palestinians are demanding homes for 4,000,000 people (the "right" of return).
                          Your nation went to war for much less, you hypocrite.

                          We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                          by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 05:22:55 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Some never had any.. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LondonYank

                            As usual. With dignity , The Israeli way.

                            But the event did take place, right?There you go then.

                            Tell me, did anyone seriously investigate claims made by Alina Sana that up to 500 Jewish POWs were extradited to the Nazis simply because they were Jews? (POW aren't killed in battle) Or her claim that Finnish intelligence knew about the holocaust going on and still did nothing?
                            So the scoreboard really reads 508 - 1 eh?
                            Was anyone punished for that? Hmmmm... no? Damn my suprise.

                            Elina Sana.

                            Those were not jewish prisoners, they were Russian prisoners. If the Germans wanted to have them, they would in return give us some pow's that were linked to our "tribe". Those Russian prisoners were not given to the Germans because they were Jewish.

                            No sale, there is no sacere status for one group. They were Soviets and the Germans wanted them.

                            And did nothing? For example prisoner lists (names) were not given to the Germans after more information came from Germany.

                            Good foreign policy? And if the Germans had won the war and eradicted Europe's jewry and murdererd tens of millions more? You would have survived. Hell, you would have become a fuc*ing empire! Certainly - a good policy. You sided with Satan and there's no excuse for that. That's the differnce between you and me : I know life is precious but I think that some things are worth dying for. I'm not a nihilist like yourself.

                            An empire? Where? Our foreign policy did not tip the balance either way. Some bigger players decided the future.

                            Sided with Satan, just like the Brits, the US, France and the rest sided with the devil.

                            And no excuse? Survival is a good one. But you would not know anything on that as Israel hasn't been under a threat of the same magnitude. Sorry, arabs don't quite match the Soviets. No sale.

                            And if life is precious, why do you support targeted killings ( that don't even hit the target)?
                            Ah, you only value some lives, not the lives of the muslim hordes.

                            Well , Syria wants "just" the Golan Heights , The Palestinians "only" want The West Bank and The Gaza Strip. Israel is tiny in comparison to the vast Arab nations around it. We gave the Palestinians land and we saw how it worked for us. More death.
                            The palestinians are demanding homes for 4,000,000 people (the "right" of return).
                            Your nation went to war for much less, you hypocrite.

                            Golan heights were part of Syria, i can understand why they might want it back.

                            Gaza and WB belong to the palestinians, wasn't that the original deal?

                            Waht land did you give to them? It must be land that wasn't theirs at the first place or you can't say that you have given them that area.

                            And a hypocrite? Went to war for less? When?

                          •  Right of Return (0+ / 0-)

                            It is interesting that the author of this diary makes the same reference that Israelis constantly do when the right of return for Palestinians is brought up. Israel is a very small country, despite it illegally annexing land. Of course just like the Nazis and the Sudetenland they have been appeased by the West in this extension of their "living room". (References deliberately designed to insult and anger the diarist in the same way his drivel has angered me.)

                            What is undeniable though is that his supposed "flood" of immigration is very similar to the record of Jews moving to Israel. They "Right of Return" means that the Jewish immigration to the country represents about 3 million once their progeny have been counted and, as the "Jewish Homeland" they wish a similar number of further immigrants to the "tiny" area. Israeli government QuANGOs in the form of the Jewish Agency actively campaign among the diaspora for them to "return". Arguments about the size of the country are therefore simply a ploy to excuse the land confiscations that have continued ever since 1948.    

                          •  We are well aware of the problem.. (0+ / 0-)

                            you haven't began to recognize.
                            Multiculturalism is possible only in western soceity because of its liberal character.
                            Big changes in demographics would cause the new majority to dictate its values upon the minority. If that happens - Britain , as a secular state , would cease to exist and it will slowly adopt the values of Islam.
                            So all your hippie BS won't be worth a (excuse me) dog's piss within 50 years.

                            Secondly , Jews moved to Israel because no other country wanted to have them , post WW2.
                            Why should anyone take a bunch of Jews, that don't even have any money?

                            Thirdly,
                            Ofcourse , no nation of Palestine ever existed nor is there any record of Palestinians before 1910 , but they still have their rights (i'm being serious).
                            However , with 22 Arabs countries and 56 Muslim countries , I think that perhaps a different solution can be found other than the destruction of the only Jewish state. What I mean to say is : granting the "right" of return to 1967 border Israel would destroy the Jewish state. The "refugees" (by choice) should return to future Palestine.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 07:28:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The only legal boundaries of Israel (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LondonYank

                            Are those established by the UN in 1947. Any other land appropriated after war, whoever started them (another Israeli argument) is illegally held unless and until different borders are established by treaty.

                          •  Withdraw (0+ / 0-)

                            From scotland and wales. Theyr'e not yours. How about the so many islands Britain is still holding. The only legal boundaries of Britain is the English Island itself. I demand withdrawal .
                            BRITAIN IS A TERRORIST STATE.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:14:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Scotland and Wales (0+ / 0-)

                            Have devolved parliaments, and as for the 'English island', words fail me.  I'd suggest a recipe at this point, but I'm not much good at cooking.  I do make a nice smoked salmon sandwich, though.

                            'I can't wait to eat that monkey!' - Abraham Simpson

                            by TruthOfAngels on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:27:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  More falsehoods (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LondonYank, rockhound

                            SteppenWolf wrote:

                            no nation of Palestine ever existed nor is there any record of Palestinians before 1910

                            Yet the "Basle Program" of the first Zionist Congress in 1897 started:

                            Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law. The Congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end:

                            The year before Hertzl in Der Judenstaat wrote:

                            Palestine is our unforgettable historic homeland

                            Earlier, the first Ottoman Parliament included deputies from the area and in 1881, the Ottomans prohibited "foreign Jews" (ie not Ottoman citizens)from living in Palestine although they were allowed to settle in other parts of the Empire and pilgrims were allowed to go to the holy places.
                            http://www.therevival.co.uk/...

                            Clearly if there was an area called Palestine recognised by the Zionist Congress, the inhabitants would be Palestinians. This sort of Denial is part of the tactics used to delegitimise claims to a modern state and again borders on racism.

                            Since the Israelis go back to biblical sources, it is worth while remembering that Abraham (Ibrahim to Muslims) came to Caana from Mesopotamia to escape persecution. The Caananites were defeated by the Jews by invasion, just as the Jews were thrown out by the Romans and the land suceesively conquered by various powers. Any claim to the land, apart presumably by the original Cannanites, is therefore dubious.

                          •  Origins of Palestine (0+ / 0-)

                            When the Hebrews entered Eretz Knaan , they fought a local tribe - The Phillistines.
                            For some reason that name stuck and Eretz Israel was named Palestine by its British occupiers.
                            The former occupier - The Ottoman Empire simply called it the "Southern Syrian Province".

                            Theodor Herzel , in both Altnoyland and "The Jewish State" refers to "Palestine" as Eretz-Israel, its Hebrew biblical name.
                            It was ofcourse "lost" in translation.

                            Another historical error made by you is your statement about 1881. The first Jewish Immigrants to Palestine arrived there in 1881, funded by Jewish Philantropists. They were called BILU (House of Jacob we shall go forth) and small number of them arrived there exactly in that year.

                            Jews had three kingdoms in Eretz Israel : The Kingdom of David , that later seperated to Yehuda (Judea) and Israel (who's inhabitants were later banished). Judea existed until it was destroyed and its inhabitants banished.
                            It was the Persian king Koresh that allowed the Jews to later return thus establishing the Hashmonite state , which lasted for about 100 years.

                            The "Palestinians" , however , never had a palestinian state and began developing their identity only when they felt threatend by the Jewish presence. That process is well described in Benny Moris's book "Victims".
                            Even prominent Palestinians , inculding Arafat , admitted on several occasions that the Palestinian people does not really exist. (All that said , I do support a Palestinian state).

                            So ,that said, Israel is the only homeland Jews have ever had. Every religious Jew says this every day, for 2000 years : "If I forget jerusalem , may my right hand forget its cunning."
                            Read the Passover Hagaddah and Jewish texts before you say Jews don't have a deep historical and emotional bond to Eretz Israel .
                            And please tell me that jews could always live quietly in Europe and in Muslim nations.

                            Moreover , After 1948 , Arab states banished 850,000 Jews from their territory to Israel (thank god) without their property.
                            We demand our property and houses back.
                            Doesn't that make sense?

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:05:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm back . I was working. (0+ / 0-)
                            1. It wasn't a celebration. It a commemoration. There's a difference. No aggressive or political speeches took place and speaker D. Zuker (Former MK) spoke about the sins of the past.
                            1. Elina Sana claims that among 3000 POWs in Finland , 500 were Jews. Those Jews were kept apart from the other POWs and were transfered as quickly as possible to the Nazis.
                            1. Not under a threat? I just sat in my house for a whole month because of Hizballah. Isn't Iran a threat , with its huge army and impending atomic weapons? Isn't Hamas a threat to peaceful life? Isn't syria , which funds and brokers terrorism , a threat?  Isn't demography a threat? Aren't the hate and antisemitism of Arabs also a threat? Israel had to fight to its teeth to survive 1973 and 1948 , and has been battling terrorism ever since the 1910's. So yes , there's a threat.
                            1. Taking the right strategic choice doesn't make you moral. You sided with the Nazis to survive , we kill terrorists to survive. Who's worse?
                            1. I think the ones without value for human life are cowardly terrorists hiding among kids and women. I told you i'd love to debate this issue on another occasion.
                            1. The Golan was a part of syria, but it's a part of Israel NOW. Why don't the Turks or the Brits ask for Israel back? It was part of Britain , wasn't it?
                            1. Should Israel give a prize to syria , who is 9 times larger than Israel , for supporting terrorism? Should it deport yet more Jews from their home? Ignore the myriad attempts made by Syria to destroy it over the years?
                            1. I ,as most Israelies, agree to a palestinian state in the WB and gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital under these , very strict , conditions : 1. All terror groups must disarm , 2. Palestinians must change their textbooks and schoolbooks. 3. No right of return WHAT SO EVER. 4. Some Israeli-Arab towns that a vast majority of its populations are anti-Zionist , would be annexed to Palestine and their citizens will have their citizenship denied.
                            1. I'm ofcourse talking about the reason Finland sided with the evil Nazis in WW2. The Soviets demanded land , didn't they? and you didn't want to give it.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 07:16:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ok (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LondonYank

                            1.there is still denial (a blue "plate" is there and it claims that it wasn't terror because they were warned. BS). I doubt Bibi was there because he was so sad that some non-jewish people died.

                            2.

                            Here something for you RE: Sana

                            To save the Jewish prisoners of war, the Jewish Congregation of Helsinki proposed to the Defence Staff that all Jewish prisoners should be placed in a separate camp.

                            A few years ago two former Soviet prisoners of war now living in Israel came to Helsinki to thank the Jewish Congregation for the "paradise" that their camp was called.

                            There is very little evidence that would back up her claims. She has never been able to show that those prisoners were transported to Germany because they were Jewish. I can't blame her, there are no documents available (some where destroyed, not sure what was in those documents. A shitload of documents was destroyed ) But she is making clames that have very little evidence. One method was to (this comes form the univ. of Jerusalem) see if the names were "jewish". That should give you really clear evidence?BS.

                            3.

                            Taking the right strategic choice doesn't make you moral. You sided with the Nazis to survive , we kill terrorists to survive. Who's worse?

                            You, of course. Just look at the current policies: land stealing, racist marriage laws, killing Lebanese civilians (and there is no way it was an accident, over 1000 died). There are ways to avoid doing these things.

                            There is no way any terrorist group can ever use the same power the biggest mad man in history, Josef Stalin, did. Terrorist groups are not a threat to Israel's existence.Israel has been a huge threat to the existence of a Palestinian state, that state does not even exist today!

                            The Golan was a part of syria, but it's a part of Israel NOW. Why don't the Turks or the Brits ask for Israel back? It was part of Britain , wasn't it?

                            Because you are there ? :D

                            No right of return WHAT SO EVER. 4. Some Israeli-Arab towns that a vast majority of its populations are anti-Zionist , would be annexed to Palestine and their citizens will have their citizenship denied.

                            Right to return can not be taken away. How come the Jewish people have a "right to return" to the occupied territories?

                            I'm ofcourse talking about the reason Finland sided with the evil Nazis in WW2. The Soviets demanded land , didn't they? and you didn't want to give it.

                            As i have pointed, there was no alliance.
                            The reason was little bit different, but too complicated for this.

                            And it was our land, we were living there. you have mixed the roles, it should be: Soviets=israel and they are stealing land from the victims.

                          •  Come on man... (0+ / 0-)
                            1. There's no debating this : Finland transported Jewish POWs to Germany although it knew full well that the Germans were killing Jews in masses. Their fate was known all the way.
                            1. Hamas and Hizballah are Iran's proxies. If we send a bunch of Jews to Finland to kill people, give them money and weapons and support them in every aspect , a logical conclusion would be that Israel is waging a war against Finland. So Hamas and Hizballah are actually a part of the Iranian army, and sadly , theyr'e not amatures.
                            1. Making hollow accusations about Israel , whose society you clearly don't understand , is childish and stupid. Many Israelies , including myself , feel for the poor Lebanese that died in this war. But we also critisize their government for its cowardice and failure to act on the issue of Hizballah. We blame Hizballah for sacrificing Lebanon in Iran's Interests. We blame Hizballah for using children as human shields. I think this war was utterly justified , although not conducted wisely.
                            1. The "racist" marrige laws you were talking about were used countless times as an instrument for terrorists to infiltrate Israel via its Muslim population. There are close to 100 instances of that happening.
                            1. "Because you are there :D" : We are also in the Golan you know. Many Israelies live there.
                            1. I don't support the settlements , as do you, BUT you DO support the "right" of return for Palestinians. Isn't that hypocritical? Why should Jews be banished from their homes to create an ethnically cleansed Palestinian state while Israel should suffer the invasion of 4,000,000 Palestinians that would demolish the state as a Jewish state? Shouldn't there be two states : one for Palestinians and one for Jews? Wouldn't that solve our problems? If history teaches us anything , it's that Arabs and Jews can't really get along. So why won't we live seperatly?
                            1. I accept your claim. Finland is indeed a very tolerant country. Iv'e visited there too some years ago and it's also very beautiful. But is Finland facing the same quagmire Israel does? Is finland surrounded by millions of Fin-hating loonies? Have the Fins (god forbid) ever undergone extreme and continuous prosecution? Is Finland facing a demographic threat that might destroy the Finnish identity?
                            1. I agree the occupation is wrong and was always wrong , but is that the only problem here? Israeli leftist always talk about the occupation as the source of all problems. Don't you think that the thinking promoted by Arab governments and religious organizations created an increadibly violent and intolerant culture? Did you know that Israel publishes 8 times more academic publications than the 22 Arab nations put together every year?

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 12:09:42 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nope (0+ / 0-)
                            1. Not Jewish, Soviet. As long as there is no evidence that they were transported because they were jewish, i'm not willing accept anything. That

                            's why i hope the really destroyed every peace of evidence as i can not be sure what was the original idea. Play safe.

                            1. And that applies to Israel and the US?
                            1. The war was a failure, you didn't achieve anything. Or at least i fail to see what was achieved. and i have no idea why Nasrallah went bonkers.
                            1. And it is still a racist law. Thos funny Germans would have loved laws like that. you chose to have laws like that= not a civilized country. This is 2006, not 500 BC.

                            5 And in Gaza too. not anymore.

                            1. You can live together, you just need the romans to keep some order in the province. And they have the right to come back. Build a new wall if it bothers you.
                            1. No it is not. It may look like that, but it really is not. Sweden more of a good example. And we have the Russians, they are trying to smoke us out as i write ( huge forest fires in Russia, the smoke has been here for weeks ). And you should know(pogroms) how much they can hate.

                            And yes, we have had hundreds of years of persecution here. You think that Christianity is the original religion here? and the language..uuh, don't get me started.

                            There is no demografic threat here, maybe we will get more brown people but that's about it.

                            1. Not the quantity, it is the quality that counts. I'm not sure that helped.

                            You have shitty friends there, too bad. Next time, tell Abraham that snow isn't so horrible. Or at least try to get a piece of land that has some oil, how hard can that be i the ME. (of course, maybe it is better not to have it, makes people crazy).

                          •  Yep. (And yapping.) (0+ / 0-)
                            1. I'll read the book and get back to you on that. Still you can't admit your country's problems. That's ok.
                            1. It would have been true if Israel's sole purpose was to serve as a tool against Lebanon and Syria and Egypt and Jordan, but Israel was founded so we can live and goes to wars not on America's ticket.
                            1. I agree the war was a failure.
                            1. It is technically , but it saves lives , and that's more important. Tell me please (i'd like to know your name if that's possible) , are you one of the people refered to as bättre folk or are you just a Finnish-speaking Fin? Know any members of Joensuu's skinheads do you now?

                            5.

                            Such hidden racism has been very common in working life. In 2001 and 2002 Pirkko Pitkänen and Päivi Atjonen studied what kind of attitudes Finnish business executives have towards immigrants applying for jobs. According to the study, the employers were afraid of the risks involved with hiring immigrants. They considered African-born immigrants and Muslims the most unreliable and unwanted employees, but had very little or nothing against hiring people from the Nordic countries, Estonia, Western Europe and North America. Roughly half of all the immigrants in Finland feel that their color, religion or ethnic origin has complicated their employment. About a third of the immigrants are still unemployed (Pitkänen 7-8). Among certain ethnicities, such as Somalians and Iraqis, the unemployment rate is as high as 70% (Heikkilä and Peltonen 5).

                            Here here for racism-free Finland.

                            1. The Golan heights have been a part of Israel for 40 years. They belonged to Syria for 19. Some 30,000 Israelies live there and countless businesses work there. It is (unlike Gaza) , an integral part of Israel , practically , not ideologically.
                            1. We can't live together. We never could. Two totally different cultures can't coexist in a single state. It's ridiculous.
                            1. Please tell me how many Fins got killed just for being Fins all around Europe during the last 200 years? Have Fins ever been systematically been driven away from their homes? Was there ever an attempt to kill the Fins altogether (god forbid)?
                            1. I know alot more about Arab culture than you do and i can assure you (nothing that a little online research can't confirm) : most Arabs living in Arab states despise Israel and Jews , don't believe in our right to exist here and think Israel is a spearhead in the West's crusade war against Islam.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:54:37 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                            1. Check  the other studies on the subject, if you want to get a decent result. she has the academic status of David Irving, but go ahead.
                            1. No, i don't know any skinheads. And the joensuu-case was handled quite quickly. and it is about foreigners, not Jewish people.

                            I'm not part of the bättre folk, well, ok, ½.

                            1. Where did i say that it didn't exist? Learn the language and your chances to get the job goes up. And in what company do the executives hire the people? I haven't seen them hiring me.

                            It is very different to have laws that discriminate and  to act in a discriminate way.

                            1. Yes you can. I'll get the Romans to kick you,both.
                            1. Why limit it to the last 200 years? One good example comes from Sweden where thousands of "forest-finns" were brutally incarcerated. Some were going to be sent to the Swedish colony in north america..sounds familiar?

                            In 1640 it became law that if a finn refused to learn Swedish, his house would be burned and there would be no legal protection on his life( free game).

                            Want more?

                            And yes, the dear soviets did and the Russians today are, targeting tribes form the same language group.

                            1. How on eath did the jews then survive in arab countries for so long?
                          •  i'm tired... (0+ / 0-)

                            I'll post another diary tomorrow. This time about Muslim media. See you then. Good night.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:08:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  One last thing (0+ / 0-)

                            They survived because Islam protects their lives as Dhimmi , but , except for a very brief golden age , Jews were ill treated, discriminated against and murdered on various occasions.
                            One might ask himself  , how did the Jews survive centuries of persecution in Europe.
                            The answer is simple : The belief In "Geula" (i don't know how to translate that but it generally means a firm belief in the return to Eretz Israel and mercy at the end of time) and collective memory.
                            It is probably the yearning for Eretz Israel that kept Jews and the Jewish faith so alive over time.

                            If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
                            Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, If I remember thee not; If I prefer not Jerusalem Above my chief joy.

                            Bon nuit , mon ami.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:18:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Remeber (0+ / 0-)

                            "Remember" does not imply "I shall drive  your existing inhabitants from your land and annexe parts of another country in your name".

                          •  BRITAIN IS A TERRORIST STATE (0+ / 0-)

                            get out of scotland , wales and the "british" islands.

                            We may live in a gutter , but wer'e reaching for the stars.

                            by SteppenWolf on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:14:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  On that we can perhaps agree (0+ / 0-)

                            There is lot of room for criticism. Remember to add cartoons :D

                          •  Gaza and WB (0+ / 0-)

                            just for the protocol.
                            prior to to the Six-Day War Gaza was part of Egypt and the WB was the part of Jordan.
                            So, according to your logic, the Israelis should return those lands to Jordan and Egypt and not to the Palestinians.
                            Did you know that Israel wanted to give Gaza strip back to Egypt, together with the Sinai peninsula?

  •  I am British (11+ / 0-)

    I live in Portsmouth, a city of roughly 250,000 people, including quite a few Muslims.

    Funny, I don't feel swamped by them.

    And, in all frankness, I would rather eat my own flesh than let a quote by Andrew Green and Migrationwatch pass as if it were gospel truth, rather than the tired right-wing talking point that they are forever espouding, to whit that 'oh no, the immigrants are coming to change all our laws and TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY!' sort of thing that US citizens are also probably quite familiar with, albeit from different sources.

    'I can't wait to eat that monkey!' - Abraham Simpson

    by TruthOfAngels on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:18:28 AM PDT

  •  Eurabia = Protocols of the elders of Islam (7+ / 0-)

    Fear of a brown planet!  You guys would make me laugh if the race hate you sell wasn't so noxious.

    This is exactly the kind of shit which used to be hurled agains Jews and Irish and Poles a hundred years ago in the US, and against Chinese and Vietnamese in Australia and New Zealand.  

    •  Why is Islam so tenacious? (0+ / 0-)

      Why has almost no Muslim land ever been de-Islamified, other than by outright ethnic cleansing?

      •  Many Muslims are extremely westernised in their (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        amsterdam, aruac, rockhound, dss, viscerality

        habits and attitudes.  They drink alcohol, date blonds, and behave just like every other group making its way up the slimy path toward equality with the ruling elites who got there first.

        Islam is no more tenacious than Judaism, Catholicism or any other -ism.

        "Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities." Winston Churchill

        by LondonYank on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:16:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  On the tenacity of religions (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Colman, LondonYank

        In the same vein as my earlier comment, I think you will find that one of the repeated complaints of antisemites in the early 20th century was that those damn jews, wherever they were, over thousands of years, still refused to give up their judaism!!!

        I think you will also find other religions which are remarkably tenacious-- despite the Portuguese export of the Inquisition to India, and five centuries of Christian evangelical activity, particularly under the protection of the British raj, yielded only 1% of Christians.

        All religions are cultural matrices which have the capacity to reproduce themselves throughout time. But the religions of the book have at their disposal a mechanical technology for the efficient reproduction of culture and sensibility. They tend all to be highly tenacious.

        •  Islam is the MOST tenacious though (0+ / 0-)

          In the same vein as my earlier comment, I think you will find that one of the repeated complaints of antisemites in the early 20th century was that those damn jews, wherever they were, over thousands of years, still refused to give up their judaism!!!

          I don't think so - twentieth century anti-Semitism was blatantly racial.  Only about half of the "Jewish" victims of the Holocaust were in fact practicing Jews.

          I think you will also find other religions which are remarkably tenacious-- despite the Portuguese export of the Inquisition to India, and five centuries of Christian evangelical activity, particularly under the protection of the British raj, yielded only 1% of Christians.

          Hinduism is truly remarkable in that it was the only Indo-European polytheism to survive the onslaught of the "Religions of the Book".  Perhaps it became stronger after it had fended off an attack by an earlier proselytising faith (Buddhism).

          Goa was in fact converted to Catholicism though.  19th century imperialists such as the British weren't as intolerant as 16th century imperialists though, and even 16th century imperialists had no success in converting Muslims.

          Large numbers of Christians under Islamic rule converted to Islam, but conversion the other way was almost unknown even under the most anti-Islamic of regimes.  In fact, the Spanish monarchy was forced to expel or exterminate the "moriscos" because they carried on practicing Islam in secret, after they were supposedly converted to Catholicism.  Crypto-Islam was far more prevalent than crypto-Judaism in post-reconquista Spain.

        •  Islam is the MOST tenacious though (0+ / 0-)

          In the same vein as my earlier comment, I think you will find that one of the repeated complaints of antisemites in the early 20th century was that those damn jews, wherever they were, over thousands of years, still refused to give up their judaism!!!

          I don't think so - twentieth century anti-Semitism was blatantly racial.  Only about half of the "Jewish" victims of the Holocaust were in fact practicing Jews.

          I think you will also find other religions which are remarkably tenacious-- despite the Portuguese export of the Inquisition to India, and five centuries of Christian evangelical activity, particularly under the protection of the British raj, yielded only 1% of Christians.

          Hinduism is truly remarkable in that it was the only Indo-European polytheism to survive the onslaught of the "Religions of the Book".  Perhaps it became stronger after it had fended off an attack by an earlier proselytising faith (Buddhism).

          Goa was in fact converted to Catholicism though.  19th century imperialists such as the British weren't as intolerant as 16th century imperialists though, and even 16th century imperialists had no success in converting Muslims.

          Large numbers of Christians under Islamic rule converted to Islam, but conversion the other way was almost unknown even under the most anti-Islamic of regimes.  In fact, the Spanish monarchy was forced to expel or exterminate the "moriscos" because they carried on practicing Islam in secret, after they were supposedly converted to Catholicism.  Crypto-Islam was far more prevalent than crypto-Judaism in post-reconquista Spain.

  •  Is present British culture to blame (0+ / 0-)

    by being so alcohol-centric that Muslims are excluded?

    Is there an alternative culture which would be acceptable to Muslims, but also authentically part of the British tradition?

    (By the way, I think British Muslims are the main problem - the French riots were nothing to do with Islam and were a European equivalent of American race riots).

    •  Two points... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Colman, LondonYank, rockhound

      The first is there are a lot of Muslims out there that really do drink. Huh? Really? Yes, indeed. Just doesn't fit the nice fundie pictures that they like to show on the news.

      Second, while I'm not British, I don't know if they would be particularly enthused with their 'culture' being defined by alcohol.

      The perfect plan, Is not the man Who tells you, You are wrong

      by dss on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:54:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Ooooh a troll diary. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    LondonYank, aruac, rockhound

    I took that Channel 4 survey. It was bollocks. According to it I'm mostly in accordance with mainstream British Muslim thought. I'm an atheist Irish ex-Catholic.

    I'm pretty sure that if you'd given that survey to a wide sample of British voters you wouldn't have got very different results.

    And the rest is racist scare-mongering.  As per usual. Oh, are there Muslim dickheads as well as Catholic and Protestant ones? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

    But, as usual, the core reasons underlying this are economic and social failures.

  •  Eventually this is a criminal justice matter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Colman, LondonYank

    I don't care to what group anyone belongs, if you put up signs that this or that person is not welcome and try to institute your own laws as if they are the law, they will be dealt with pretty quickly.

    It's the beat generation, it's be-at, it's the beat to keep, it's the beat of the heart, it's being beat and down in the world and like all time low-down

    by Splicer on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 05:19:40 AM PDT

  •  This diary is a racist, Islamophobic lie (7+ / 0-)

    Or rather full of lies and distortions designed to incite religious hatred by quoting racist organisations like Immigration Watch UK. Others have drawn attention to their record but the link provided by the author does not even support his assertion that most of the    "flood" of immigrants that they refer to are Muslim. The diarist cannot even get the current immigration scares into the UK right. The current "concern" is migration from Bulgria and Rumania when they join the EU following government fudging of the figures before the EU10 joined in May 2005.

    The UK was one of just three countries in 2004 to give all the new EU citizens - notably from Poland - work rights.

    Ministers expected up to 13,000 a year to move to the UK, but 600,000 have so far.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

    The vast majority of these new workers were from Poland, not a country noted for its sharia law although the fundamentalist Catholics who seem to have taken power are as much a threat.

    So does this threat of a "state within a state" - the same reference Israel uses to denegrate Hezbollah in Lebanon - have any basis in fact?

    The first major area in the UK to be formally marked out with special Muslim boundaries is expected to go ahead despite a decade of concerted opposition.

    The final details of the proposed "shara" covering the heart of east London's Muslim community goes before decision makers in the coming days after years of negotiations.
    ....
    [Opponents say that] would be an imposition of a small part of the community's values on other groups, contrary to the nature of multicultural London.

    Scarey eh? Except this is a lie as the actual article refers to a Jewish "eruv" in the Golders Green area of north London. If you want proof of the failure of that community to "integrate" and fade into the background you need go no further than that area - or rather you used to as the community has followed the trend to sub-urbanisation and there is now a large Jewish area to the north-west.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

    There are very good reasons for why the brown Muslim populations in the UK  are currently where they are. A lot has to do with the new immigrants willingness to take public housing for their families that white families rejected. "White flight" caused by scare tactics such as this diary exacerbated the problem and fear of racist attacks grew the clusters as more felt safer surrounded by those from their former country.

    The situation in Oldham is a direct reflection of race riots started by thugs from the British National Party going into the area to cause violence.

    Divisions between communities are still "entrenched" in Oldham five years after riots, even though residents feel race relations are improving, a report (in May 2006) says.

    The town has done much work to build "community cohesion" but it could take "at least a generation" to address issues if policy gaps are not met.

    Report author Ted Cantle led the first Home Office inquiry into the riots in the Greater Manchester town in 2001.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/...

    In fact I strongly suspect the violent attacks and the disenfranchiement of the young, in particularly young Muslims refered to in that piece and of course reflected in Blair ignoring the millions from all communities who protested the Iraq War was rather more the motive for the 7/7 bombings in London than some fanciful wish for Sharia law.

    Rather than man the barricades, I prefer to celebrate that London held a mela  the weekend before last, today the largest Hindu temple in Europe opens in Birmingham and this weekend the streets of west London will be jammed by a million or so people of all races enjoying Carnival.

  •  Isolating (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    amsterdam, LondonYank, rockhound

    a group by demonizing them is a sure way to push them to radical extremes.  This post and the links helps to demonize Muslims in Europe and will add to any problems there are.  I have traveled twice this year in England , Italy and Croatia.  Didn't notice any difference from previous years.  In fact, I had a nice, long chat on a train to York, with a young lady from Iran who now lives in Scotland.  She is attending college and was quite ambitious as to her future and her life.  Lovely girl, and not scary at all. Hmmmm.  We talked of women in Islam, GWB's plans for Iran and all sorts of things.  Enlightening and enjoyable. No threat as far as I could see.  Of course this is anticdotal and far from hard data, but no one spoke to us of any scary Muslim stuff.  This seems to be racist and just the same old same old.  Scary brown people want to take over!  Preserve our ways, no changing!  Boogiemen, Boogiemen!

    "Do you want to tumble? Let's tumble." Stephen Colbert

    by tobendaro on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:25:09 AM PDT

  •  Tax the Churches (0+ / 0-)

    I don't know what the UK version of America's "taxfree churches" laws are, but I'd bet they're similar in effect. And I'd bet the UK is similar to America in ignoring the theocrat propaganda with which churches brainwash children. Churches, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Baha'i, or Moonie, have a blank check they're cashing without even showing ID.

    It's time to rip that all down. Just like the last time the Crusade was on the other foot, forcing Church and State to become distinct from one another, ending the Dark Ages and setting the stage for the Enlightenment.

    We institutionalize the segregation of churches from socitey as a whole. We don't make them pay their way, while we subsidize them. We let them teach people anything, no matter how factually wrong or politically treasonous, while subsidizing them. We carve out a parallel world in which charismatic leaders can create any reality they please, at our expense, to our peril. Why should we expect they "integrate" with us when we pay to keep them separated?

    These churches are private club corporations. The American right of religion free from government "establishment" was turned on its head into government establishing religion as an "anything goes" land. In which people who can't cut it in society can live off the worst combination of communism and capitalism. Who can rape children, subvert politics, build financial empires, all secretly and without accountability. Justified by "I said so".

    We've got to put churches on the same basis as any clubs. Before they destroy our ability to do anything.

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:39:39 AM PDT

  •  Verbal Terrorism (0+ / 0-)

    I noticed the al-Muhajiroun logo on the poster displayed by the Islamist extremists in the image.  I would describe al-Muhajiroun and its successors (like al-Ghurabaa, who marched with "BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM" placards outside the Danish Embassy in London) as "verbal terrorists".

    What I mean by this is that although they don't kill people or blow things up, they are still using the same methods described in Pericles's "Terrorist Strategy 101".  In their case they aim to drive British Muslims into their own arms by inciting Islamophobia among the general British population.

    Did you really think that a rally with "BEHEAD THOSE WHO INSULT ISLAM" placards was actually about cartoons?

  •  good shit (0+ / 0-)

    "People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.

    by michael1104 on Sat Sep 16, 2006 at 11:26:20 PM PDT

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