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The problem with the whole idea that we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here (beyond the fact that Iraq never attacked the U.S. in the first place) is that we're still the target.

BAGHDAD, Sept. 20 -- Attacks against U.S. troops have increased in the two weeks since al-Qaeda in Iraq's new leader urged insurgents to target American forces, a U.S. military spokesman said Wednesday.

Since the threat posted on the Internet on Sept. 7 by Abu Ayyub al-Masri, also known as Abu Hamza al-Muhajer, at least 23 servicemen have been killed, mostly by suicide car bombers or roadside bombs, according to U.S. military news releases.

The latest casualty came Wednesday when a U.S. soldier was killed by gunfire in northeastern Baghdad, according to the military, which also reported the death of a soldier in a roadside explosion Tuesday northeast of Baghdad.

"Al-Qaeda in Iraq, insurgents and death squads have recently increased their attacks, with the primary area being focused in the Baghdad area," said Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell, the U.S. military's top spokesman in Iraq.

No one here needs to be reminded that al Qaeda wasn't even in Iraq until the U.S. invasion unleashed the chaos that has allowed them to flourish there. Somehow I don't think that was part of the "good plan" for Iraq that Lieberman likes to talk about, or at least that he liked to talk about before he decided it was just politically safer to avoid the topic altogether.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:11 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  "fighting them there" (5+ / 0-)

    is just another bullshit rationale for continuing a war sold to us by bullshit.

    the whole effing tragedy stinks to high heaven.

    "joke about the rapture here"

    send NYBri to the NY state senate!

    by lipris on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:13:36 AM PDT

    •  Who Are We Fighting? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      redqueen, epppie

      Can anybody tell me?

      I'm pretty sure that we are fighting Iraqis in Iraq.

      Do we win when they're all dead?

      This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

      by Mr X on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:15:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We're fighting Islamofacism (0+ / 0-)

        See, President Bush and the terrorist both wanted to have an all-out battle, so they agreed on fighting it out in Iraq. Now when they made that deal, the terrorist warned him that if he didn't beat them there, they would come to America and we'd have to fight them here in our streets and supermarkets. To make things worse, they would drive taxi cabs during the day and kill at night. Come on people, we're at war!


        If your name was George Walker instead of George Walker Bush, your candidacy would be a joke.

        by dole4pineapple on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:40:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  All I know for sure is that in Iraq (0+ / 0-)

        50 US and 3 UK soldiers have died so far this month.  The trend has been heading up but GW and fans want to change the focus to things like overall terrorism.

        No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. --Edward R. Murrow

        by craigb on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:04:15 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm a vet (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        who was in the Navy 1968 - 1972.  My mother was a musican and loved show tunes.  One of the songs she use to plan/sing was 'Over There'.  While I have sweet memories of her voice and piano playing the lyrics to this song now leave a sour taste in my mouth and a queezy stomach.

        Johnnie get your gun, get your gun, get your gun,
        Take it on the run, on the run, on the run,
        Hear them calling you and me,
        Ev'ry son of liberty.
        Hurry right away, no delay, go today,
        Make your daddy glad to have had such a lad,
        Tell your sweetheart not to pine,
        To be proud her boy's in line.

        Over there over there
        Send the word, send the word over there
        That the Yanks are coming, the Yanks are coming,
        The drums rum-tumming ev'rywhere
        So prepare say a pray'r
        Send the word, send the word to beware
        We'll be over, we're coming over,
        And we won't come back till it's over over there!

        No one can terrorize a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices. --Edward R. Murrow

        by craigb on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:25:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Ah, yes, that song. There must have been (0+ / 0-)

          fear-mongering over here during WWII. When I was a girl and sick in bed once, in my feverish sleep I had a vivid dream of Nazis coming upstairs in my home, to get me. It really scared me and I wonder if some kids don't have those nightmares now. What a shame. It's the only childhood dream I remember!

        •  Over There (0+ / 0-)

          I used your song choice in letter to  editor published here on Cape Cod.
          My point was, if we get on the ball to stop using so much imported oil we wouldn't have to be "Over There."
          At some level our troops are mercenaries to a failed energy policy here, and we'll be fighting more wars until it's "Over, Over Here."


          by cognitorex on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:37:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Simple (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mr X

        Who Are We Fighting?
        People who don't look like "us" and have oil.

        Do we win when they're all dead?
        We win when we've found a way to get all the oil, regardless of how many of "them" we "have to" kill.

        They should have stuck to the initial name for this boundless clusterfuck: OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation).

        This is why I'm so nervous about Iran--not only do they have 11% of the world's oil, they also have 15% of the world's natural gas, which is the next fossil fuel which will become gratuitously "interesting."  If that combination of resources isn't a tempting target for the crowd in the WH, I can't imagine what is.

        The Cost of Energy

      •  Newt Gingrich sez: (0+ / 0-)

        we're at war with the Democrats

        Travel is useful, it exercises the imagination. All the rest is disappointment and fatigue. -L.F. Celine

        by Nimbus on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 06:39:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Bush Declares War on First Responders!!! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gorette, Iowa Boy

      Overlooked in all of his fallacious spinning, and his derisive comments on 'law enforcement' as opposed to military approach, is that this flies in the face of the facts we know.  

      The London incident, which they were quick to trumpet, was based entirely on good detective, and police work.  Ditto most of the other successful 'catches', as opposed to all of the specious false alarms yielded by their unreliable informants and yields of their prized torture program.  

      They have thus shown zero respect for our police personnel and capabilities, just overloading them with convulsions of false alarms.

      Even worse--one of the most important recommendations of the 9/11 Commission was interoperability of first responders' communication capabilities.  Police and firefighters in 9/11 were unable to communicate effectively with each other, at the cost of dozens, if not hundreds, of lives!!!
      To date, so far as I know nothing--NOTHING!!!--has been done regarding this crucial link to protect the safety of first responders!!!  (Kinda sounds like sending soldiers to war w/o body armor, huh???)

      Why???  Because solving this would require bandwidth desired by their big Communications contributors.  Money over safety--again!!!   What a shock!!!

      Because of the above, and for other reasons, first responders should be supporting Dems for Congress, and citizens should know they will be much safer w/a Democratic majority in Congress!!!

    •  There's another saying (0+ / 0-)

      "Home field advantage". It might explain why we're losing 2 wars.

      If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve.

      by jhecht on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:39:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not to mention elsewhere in the middle east (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Gorette, Iowa Boy, epppie

    Health and Safety of Civilians is Severely Threatened in Middle East Conflict

    The International Council of Nurses calls for a halt to hostilities and the mobilisation of an international peace keeping force.

    Geneva, 7 August 2006 - Speaking on behalf of the 13 million nurses working worldwide, the International Council of Nurses (ICN) is drawing attention to the severe negative impact of the current hostilities on the health and well being of the civilian populations in affected countries in the Middle East.  “With many hundreds of defenceless civilians - children, women and men - killed since the hostilities began 3 weeks ago, the effects of the armed conflict in Gaza, Israel and Lebanon are devastating”, stated ICN President Hiroko Minami.  “We call on international institutions to initiate a halt to the hostilities and mobilise an international peace keeping force without delay.”

    Along with the grave losses of life and serious injury, the conflict has displaced more than a million people, as infrastructure, homes and communities are destroyed and people seek safety.  Most of the displaced are now living in precarious conditions, with poor access to proper sanitation, clean water and sufficient food, undermining the health of populations and creating circumstances favourable to epidemic diseases.  Precious resources, financial and human, are diverted to war – inevitably at the expense of investment in health, health systems and education.

    ICN believes nurses have an important role to play in addressing the impact of conflict, including the emergency and long term health needs of refugees, other civilian populations and wounded armed forces personnel, and demands protection for all health professionals and relief personnel providing care in conflict zones.

    “As stated in our Position Statement, ICN strongly opposes armed conflict under any circumstances and we urge our member national nurses associations in 129 countries to join us in calling for an immediate cessation of the armed conflict in the Middle East and the rapid deployment of an international peace keeping force,” concluded Dr Minami.

    "The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the first and only legitimate object of good government." --Thomas Jefferson 1809.

    by Buffy Orpington on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:14:58 AM PDT

  •  you just have a pre 9-11 mindset... (4+ / 0-)

    ...which is to say, you havent changed your registration to Republican.


    Get over to the Green Mountain Daily! What are you still reading this sig for?

    by odum on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:15:06 AM PDT

  •  As somebody who has seen and been there, (14+ / 0-)

    I pray for the demise of our current administration and the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq.  Iraq could always been handled peacefully, therein is the crime of our clown-in-chief.

    For Impeachment of George Bush!

    by Retiredgrunt on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:15:09 AM PDT

    •  U.S. troops are Americans too (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      As a veteran myself, I want to tell this administration WE ARE NOT YOUR CANNON FODDER.

      I get the impression this adminstration sees themselves as an aristocracy, and the troops as their own personal "trailer trash," to abuse at will.

      And here is where I got that impression--Disabled American Veterans voting scorecards for the last two years average out to:

      Republicans: 19% in the Senate,  25% in the House
      Democrats:  78% in the Senate, 91% in the House

      (Can you imagine the NRA supporting someone with a 25% gun scord card?)

      Look up your own Senator's or Representatives's voting score according to the Disabled American Veterans. And maybe write an LTE about that.

  •  Human Sacrifice (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Iowa Boy, Buffy Orpington, epppie

    Our fierce and noble chief, counseled by the finest witch doctors, has determined that we must offer many human sacrifices in Iraq to appease the angry terror gods.

    Otherwise, volcanoes will erupt or something.  You don't want that, do you?

    Or are you secretly on the side of the volcanoes, hmmm?

    CNN: The Most Trusted Name In News.
    Twinkie: The Most Trusted Name In Nutrition.

    by Irfo on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:15:43 AM PDT

  •  Theory and practice (5+ / 0-)

    “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.”

    -- Joseph Goebbels

    "We're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here."

    -- George Bush

  •  it's almost 4 yrs, put down the insurgency (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I pray for the day when Bush gets asked the simple question of why can't we put down the insurgency in Iraq, why are his policies failing?  I know he may give his pat answers, but it's almost 4 fucking years now and 3.5 yrs after he said MAJOR COMBAT OPERATIONS IN IRAQ HAVE ENDED.  

    It's bullshit all of it

    •  Long term (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gaspare, snazzzybird

      not only has it been 5 years, but the whole "we're fighting them there" logic seems to indicate that we must continually fight them over there.  Unless we are going to still have 100,000-200,000 troops over there for the next couple of hundred years, eventually there needs to be a political solution.  Something the administration hasn't developed since their pipedream of a Iraq based deomcractic domino theory went up in smoke.

      •  and $300 billion+ later (0+ / 0-)

        if this was about cheap gas/oil, the US government could have spent the $300billion+ subsidizing gas prices but that would have went over like a lead balloon with the conservatives, they likey the war.
        and we probably would have saved a couple hundred billion

    •  In your opinion (0+ / 0-)

      Who are the insurgency then? How would you put it down? With American troops? Isn't that against what you guys are saying here?

      •  the GOP brags about the need to fight in Iraq (0+ / 0-)

        but they have failed for almost four years now to put down the insurgency, instead their policies have made the situation worse.  Everything the GOP is doing is making things worse, call the republicans bluff

  •  Printing Recruitment Posters (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    John H, Buffy Orpington

    There is absolutely nothing that could have enabled recruitment by Bin Laden more effectively than our occupation of Iraq. Nationalistic young people (unemployed, undereducated) are convinced that we are there to stay. (After all, we are building permanent bases as we speak.) It would perhaps have been less expensive for us to simply print the recruitment posters ourselves.

  •  Fighting for Halliburton, Blackwater, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    redqueen, lipris, serrano

    Bechtel and all of the other corporate governors (the REAL government) to meet the goal of maximum corporate profit.


    "The care of human life and happiness and not their destruction is the first and only legitimate object of good government." --Thomas Jefferson 1809.

    by Buffy Orpington on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:17:36 AM PDT

  •  Secure our borders (0+ / 0-)

    and they can't get in here to fight us here. But, spend all of our resources on Iraq and surely our borders are porous.

    If we'd secure our airports (National Guard in charge of airport security) and our shipping ports (scan every damn container) and secure our borders, how will they attack us here?  Does Al Qaeda have some paratrooper force?

    Man this rhetoric is just worn out!

    We need more than two major political parties.

    by PoliticAl2008 on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:18:16 AM PDT

  •  "Fighting" is the goal. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buffy Orpington, Nimbus

    There is capital -- both bullion and political -- to be made, and increasing your capital is the ONLY thing that matters to the people in charge.

    If it weren't "turrists" they'd turn on the next likely target.

    The Bush Administration has allowed people to be killed under false pretense and for ignoble reasons.  I know no better definition of heinous.

    by Yellow Canary on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:19:27 AM PDT

  •  remind us (0+ / 0-)

    remind us

    this video takes 8 or 9 seconds to load. It is absolutely worth it.

  •  Not to mention the racism that's behind the idea (8+ / 0-)

    of "fighting them there so we don't have to here," which translates to "they brown Muslims, they expendable...yeah, even mothers and children."  Only a resolute bastard of the lowest order could think of such a thing, let alone plan and execute along those lines.  

    And then there's the dumb-as-a-fucking-brick thought processes that think up things like this, because what they're saying is, "Hey, terrorists can't see America, as long as we're in Iraq!  It's a bit of cosmic magic, you see - as long as we're there, they can't see us over here!"  Which, in any language, is known as king stupid.

    It's easy: buy this thinking wholesale, without question, and you're a moron.  Question it, and you're not.  Easy sweezy.

    •  that's the point that is too often overlooked (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      John H, mspicata, paul d, Nimbus

      even here. it says something truly sick about our society that we can rationalize the absolute ravaging of a foreign country, it's terrified and bloodied population and it's infrastructure just to make ourselves "feel" al little bit safer. those who are OK with leveling a city of 300,000 people because those people don't like the fact that we invaded their country are severely handicapped in rather obvious ways.

      i think one of the problems is that for americans, war is something that happens somewhere else to other people. americans have no real knowledge of what it's like to have a modern army come tear assing through their neighborhoods and towns. there are plenty of people alive today in france or poland or saigon or shanghai who remember what that's like all too well.

      when you add in the obvious and overt racism that allows and even insists with little or no thought for these things to happen to brown people of another faith and language, you get a picture of the american mind which is, quite frankly, somewhat repugnant.

      we have earned the world's scorn, folks. even if most americans are blissfully unaware.

      "joke about the rapture here"

      send NYBri to the NY state senate!

      by lipris on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:32:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Amen to all of that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Nice point re: Americans not understanding what it's like to be occupied, "have a modern army come tear assing through their neighborhoods and towns," etc.  No, we don't know what that's like, and yes, we're clearly non-empathetic when it comes to imagining - for just a frigging second - how occupation, "tear assing" and the total upending of the social/political/legal order affect those who have to suffer those afflictions.  Um...I ain't no genius, I've never had foreign (or domestic) soldiers stationed in my neighborhood, but I sure as fuck don't need to go through those things to know they're a big-time life-changing anger-inspiring drag.  

        But the average person, I think, is just too worn down by the demands of life under capitalism to even begin to think along these (as processed by said average person) abstract lines.  The rent is too high; the wages are too low; the gas is too expensive; the kids are too demanding; etc.  At the end of a typical day, there ain't no energy left, and...yes...over there, beckoning, are the easy charms of the television, requiring no more than ass in chair and eyes wide and accepting.  And I don't necessarily blame people for this response to life's demands, either.  But...

        ...history/the cosmos/life doth occasionally visit a mestastasizing cancer upon a given nation (see Hitler, Caesar, Pinochet, Nixon, et al), and that nation is thereby called by the clarion that screams, "Are you too busy and distracted by baubles 'n busy-ness to act when your nation - and, attendantly, your day-to-day life - is tottering, ailing, diseased?  Will you fight the disease with everything you have, for the ones who aren't born yet, and for yourself?  Would you swing a hammer into yon television to sever the narcotic ties that bind?  Would you?"

        Ah, the great and eternal question...

  •  As a clairvoyant (0+ / 0-)

    I think OBL’s body will be found in Iraq on 11/2/06.

    The war in Iraq was worth fighting after all.

  •  Flypaper theory (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    clonecone, redqueen, VoicelessInDC, Nimbus

    The worst part of the whole 'flypaper' rationale is the inherent immorality such a statement implies - using someone else's country as a battleground against enemies that weren't there to begin with.

    I don't know why we think, just because we're mighty, that we have the right to try to substitute might for right -- Wayne Morse (D-Ore), 1964

    by John H on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:20:52 AM PDT

  •  This is the second time (0+ / 0-)

    I have heard this arguement. I think it's a paradox and weak arguement. Of course there are Al Kayduh attacks in Iraq. It's a freakin' war. Jeesh.

    The Pen is mightier than the Sword. Someone tell the Muslims.

    by LandSurveyor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:21:04 AM PDT

    •  ummm....What? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      exiled texan

      I've read this three times and I can't make sense of it.

      •  A warhawk (0+ / 0-)

        would say "of course there is Al Kayduh in Iraq. And of course our soldiers are targets. Duh."

        I've read this thread several times. It fails on it's face. Saying soldiers are targets is like calling Volkswagons curvey.

        Now are we increasing the AlKayduh presence there? Of course! But that's a seperate issue! A loyal warhawk is gonna say that's a good thing and get away with it!

        The Pen is mightier than the Sword. Someone tell the Muslims.

        by LandSurveyor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:56:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's not a zero sum game (0+ / 0-)

          there aren't a finite number of terrorists in the world. Now it means that we're fighting them there and here because our actions are bringing more numbers to their cause.  And half the people in Iraq that we call terrorists are simply Iraqis fed up with foreign occupation.

  •  We didn't draw the terrorists to Iraq (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buffy Orpington

    We created new ones.

  •  I heard a stunning 8,000 people were killed (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    in Iraq in July today on MSNBC.

    That is a lot of people. I don't think things are going well at all.

  •  Every soldier or non-commissioned personnel (3+ / 0-)

    member, every journalist or subcontracted worker who gets injured, traumatized or killed in Iraq, brings the "fight" back over here.  If they are killed or wounded and have children, spouses, partners, it impacts their lives with them in horrendous and difficult ways.  The over-long deployments and stop-loss assignments hurt families through the imposition of egregious absences. The outrageous amounts of money we are giving to no-bid contracts to use in the so-called "rebuilding" effort, and in "protection," are siphoned out of our ability to build communities, health care systems, family assistance programs, educational initiatives, etc. here at home. We are hurt in immeasurable ways "here" by sending troops overseas and billions of dollars overseas to wage this so-called "fight for freedom."  We are hurting ourselves in unimaginable ways, ways we won't begin to understand for years, through taking whatever it is we're doing "over there."

    •  I never understood (0+ / 0-)

      this "fighting them over there" canard when it is still American sons and daughters who are doing the dying.

      It's more like "fighting them over there so you don't notice that we're not protecting you over here."

      Anything can happen. You can even get a full glass of beer at a cocktail lounge.

      by Red Wind on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:37:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It;s more than that... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    John H, Buffy Orpington
    The problem is that it's a coward view point.
    It's one thing to have people willing to take a bullet for innocent people when an attack comes.
    It's quite another to throw even the willing into harms way just so you can feel safe.
    That's what is happening now.
    Nice and cowardly that.
    And as I've said, it's a game of Bats and Beehives because we attack one country in a region that sees it as a part of a whole.
    They're going to hate us for eternity. Or until we drastically change our tactics and apologize for our stupidity.
  •  And now the Iraqi (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buffy Orpington

    Police force, which was so trumpeted during the presidential debates in 04', more resemble the Sopranos, than an actual police force.

    Shiite militiamen and criminals entrenched throughout Iraq’s police and internal security forces are blocking recent efforts by some Iraqi leaders and the American military to root them out, a step critical to winning the trust of skeptical Sunni Arabs and quelling the sectarian conflict, Iraqi and Western officials say.

    The new interior minister, Jawad al-Bolani, who oversees the police, lacks the political support to purge many of the worst offenders, including senior managers who tolerated or encouraged the infiltration of Shiite militias into the police under the previous government, according to interviews with more than a dozen officials who work with the ministry and the police.

    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. - Plato

    by iliketodrum on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:24:50 AM PDT

  •  Notice how the General quoted throws Al-Qaeda (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buffy Orpington

    into the mix, saying "Al-Qaeda in Iraq"?  Nice way to make it seem as though there were that Iraq-Al-Qaeda link that Condi Rice and Dick Cheney keep insisting always existed.  

  •  Precisely. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buffy Orpington

    That is why I wrote the following diary a few weeks ago:

    'Fight them there, so we don't have to fight them here' key lie in New Big Fib©

    Visit Satiric Mutt -- my contribution to the written cholesterol now clogging the arteries of the Internet.

    by Bob Johnson on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:26:06 AM PDT

  •  but it's not US being targetted (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Buffy Orpington

    it's soldiers, not Americans, and since soldiers' lives aren't even worth a decent kevlar vest or Humvee plating...

    another shock troop in the Class War

    by exiled texan on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:26:09 AM PDT

    •  Soldiers too often means (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      exiled texan, Nimbus

      poor people who joined the military for a way out of poverty.  Since they don't have money, why should the rethugs care about them?

      I don't know why we think, just because we're mighty, that we have the right to try to substitute might for right -- Wayne Morse (D-Ore), 1964

      by John H on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:31:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was a Marine. (0+ / 0-)

        I am not poor. I got my education in the service and owe everything I have to what I learned while serving this country. Why don't you shut you piehole and stand a watch or man a post before you make an ass out of yourself in a public forum.

        •  I highly doubt that (0+ / 0-)

          I work with Marines every day.  True professionals for whom the words "honor, freedom, country, duty" carry a special meaning.
          These are also men who believe that while they don't agree with what a lot of Americans say, that their right to say it is unquestioned.
          Nothing you have ever posted on Kos sounds like the Marines with whom I work and along side whom I have fought.

          "Good night and good luck" --Edward R. Murrow, Keith Olbermann

          by soonergrunt on Sun Oct 08, 2006 at 10:59:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  That really grinds my griddle. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    What does fighting them over there really mean?  As far as I can see, it means that for no mentionable reason, we gave Al Queda both a huge number of targets and plenty of reason to attack them.

    That's appeasement of the most horrific kind.  

    a hope that may come close to despair

    by epppie on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:26:54 AM PDT

  •  Bush gets to have it both ways (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Chilipalmer, Buffy Orpington

    He claims, "we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here" and then says, "The terrorists are coming to kill your family."

    Of course, the corporate press shows him speaking from each side of his mouth, but never both.

  •  War? what War? (0+ / 0-)

    My Dear Leader and all the News outlets have stopped talking about that war. In Iraq was it?, so there is no war.

    Although Osama Bin Goldstein is still trying to kill you and your family. So be very afraid. You liberal liars.

  •  How are they going to get here? (0+ / 0-)

    I am still waiting for someone to ask bush how they're going to get here.  Is homeland security not doing their job?  Has the congress not hardened our borders?  Has the congress not followed the 9/11 commissions's recommendations?

    I wish so many things, but one wish is for a reporter, any reporter, to ask bush why he has not made this country safe to the point that "they" can't get in.  And since he hasn't, what is he currently doing to effectuate keeping them out.

  •  Chris Matthews on IMUS today (0+ / 0-)

    Chris Matthews: "The news media, which I have to say sucks lately in covering the Iraq War. It's like we are at war, we've lost... we've killed fifty thousand people over there in that war, that died in that war, we still get guys knocked off every couple of days, a couple of more guys are killed and yet it's not on the tube. It's like are we bored with the war now? Is that the new thing? We don't cover a war our guys are fighting? And I watch the news and I don't see the war anymore it's been taken off television. Bush must love it, because certainly Karl Rove loves the fact that the Iraq War has gotten boring for the American people."

    Imus: "It's probably had something to do with the tainted spinach you know if you think about it..."

    Chris Matthews: "How can we be at war and not watch it? I don't get it."

    Imus: "I don't know that's a good question."

    The Constitution is not negotiable

    by Hkingsley on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:37:04 AM PDT

  •  How convenient to blame the bogeyman (0+ / 0-)

    It isn't that I doubt that some of our troops might have been killed by "al-Qaeda in Iraq", but trying to claim that there has been an increase in military casualties in the past two weeks is because of "al-Qaeda in Iraq" when we have been losing soldiers at a nearly constant rate for over two years at about 2.5 per day. We lose more soldiers when Bush decides  for political purposes to have another "major operation" like the storming of Fallujah two years ago or the recent "securing of Baghdad". If there is anything that shows just how little the Cheney Misadministration really cared about establishing a stable democratic Iraq (aside from the mistake of the original invasion itself)it is their not having secured Baghdad 3 1/2 years ago.

  •  Civilian death toll includes 'honor killings'... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Iowa Boy

    ...of women.

    UN: 2-month Iraq civilian death toll reaches 6,599 :

    UNITED NATIONS -- The number of civilians slain in Iraq reached an unprecedented level in July and August, which saw 6,599 violent deaths, the United Nations said Wednesday.

    The report from the U.N. Assistance Mission in Iraq offered a grim assessment of other indicators, from unlawful detentions to the growth of sectarian militias and death squads, and a rise in "honor killings" of women.

    See also:

    Grim days for the gravedigger of Baghdad


    U.S. denies Iraqi police behind death squads


    Iraq bracing for Ramadan violence


    Start of school seen as major test for Iraq

    Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime. -- Ernest Hemingway

    by spread the word IRAQ NAM on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:40:29 AM PDT

  •  the biggest un-truth (0+ / 0-)

    READ MORE: James Dobson
    Standing before an enormous American flag in Mellon Arena, conservative evangelical activist James Dobson told thousands of supporters he was deeply disappointed in the nation's Republican leadership, but that the nation's future depended on re-electing them.

    Evan as he spoke his glories party is trying to make all right to torture. The Republican Party is living proof our school system is only capable of making idiots out of our children

    How to make America great and moral; VOTE DEMOCRATIC

    by roxnev on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:40:48 AM PDT

  •  Poisoning the neighbor's dog because (0+ / 0-)

    The other neighbor's cat bit you.

    Now we have a biting cat, and some very pissed off neighbors.

    Jim Brandt for Congress (CA-46)

    by mungley on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:42:49 AM PDT

  •  killing them over there (0+ / 0-)

    Killing them so that they learn to loves us

    How to make America great and moral; VOTE DEMOCRATIC

    by roxnev on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:49:20 AM PDT

  •  Iraq doesn't sound like a very fun place to be (0+ / 0-)

    I think we should choose someplace else to fight them.

    How about, um, Greenland?  Not too many civillians, climate improving every year, the perfect place for a war!  I think we should fight them there so that we don't have to fight them either here or in Iraq.

    (no offense to anyone from Greenland -- I thought it might be a tad more comfortable for our troops than Antarctica)

  •  BBC has more on Iraq horrors (0+ / 0-)

    I recently blocked CNN from my browse list and I've been reading nothing but The Economist and the BBC's news site. I think my blood pressure is down twenty points and my IQ is up at least ten ...

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise" - U.S. Constitution author and fourth President James Madison

    by Iowa Boy on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:00:51 AM PDT

  •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

    They are fighting us there because it is easier to kill us there. In other words, we are fighting them there because they want us to.

    "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed." General Buck Turgidson

    by muledriver on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:03:57 AM PDT

  •  Ahhhhh (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    for as fucked up as fighting them over there so we don't fight them here is, your piece gives ammo for just that proposition. Iraq is 'over thre' and not 'over here' as it were.

    Just sayin'


    Mitch Gore

    Republicans believe in training Al-Qaeda, but not in training American workers.

    by Lestatdelc on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:05:32 AM PDT

    •  A man who knows his Abbott and Costello (0+ / 0-)

      Sounds like you're familiar with the routine from "The Noose Hangs High" when Costello bets Mike Mazurki $10 he's not here.

      If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve.

      by jhecht on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:54:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  where the real fight is (0+ / 0-)

    The real fight, like Vietnam, is on the streets of America.

  •  "We are still the target" only if (0+ / 0-)

    you are one of those Americans who include the military deployed in Iraq in "We".

    When it comes to determining whether "we" are safer, republicans don't include in the "we" the live bait of the military that they have left in Iraq.

    When it comes to saying "we are figting", why, the keyboard brigage is "we" all over.

  •  Parrots, (0+ / 0-)

    repeat after me! "Al Quaeda in Iraq! Al Quaeda in Iraq! Raaaaque, wheewhew!"

    Now say it so often you believe it!

  •  The ineffectiveness of the antiwar movement... (0+ / 0-)

    It is clear that the Bush administration calculated from the very beginning that there would be no mass movement against the war, as there was in the late 60s/early 70s, when there was a MILITARY DRAFT in effect. In that time, there truly was SACRIFICE going on across the board. Of course, there were always connected people, like Bush and Cheney, who had other priorities, and could find other ways to occupy themselves, but no commentator could seriously say, as they do today: "What are you crying about! These people VOLUNTEERED for service! They WANT to die for their country and you miserable cretins don't APPRECIATE their SERVICE!" like they do today... Nixon cogently abolished the draft, in 1972, around the same time that the voting age was lowered to 18, from 21.  

    Travel is useful, it exercises the imagination. All the rest is disappointment and fatigue. -L.F. Celine

    by Nimbus on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 06:32:48 PM PDT

    •  Great post Nimbus (0+ / 0-)

      Most of these whiners don't have a clue what it takes to provide them with freedom.

      •  I think that freedom is not something that is (0+ / 0-)

        provided, but rather taken away, and in time possibly won back, but not without people knowing what they are fighting for. When people are kept in the dark about the dangers around them, in order that they may shop more peacefully, then they lose their freedom, in my opinion.

        Travel is useful, it exercises the imagination. All the rest is disappointment and fatigue. -L.F. Celine

        by Nimbus on Sat Sep 30, 2006 at 04:50:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The NeoCon and the Wasps' Nest (0+ / 0-)

    A NeoCon walking deep into the woods behind his house found a wasps' nest the size of a watermelon hanging from a low branch of a tree. He was stung on the nose by a bee the week before, and he had  been having bad dreams about insects for years.  He thinks this nest is an affront, and rushes back home where his family is about to have dinner. The NeoCon says "Lets have a little party in the woods out back. I have a surprise for all of you, it's a piñata full of candy and prizes" Then he leads them deep into the woods, then he blindfolds everybody, hands each one of them a badminton racket. Then he guides each of them to the tree with the nest. "OK you're all near the piñata, the first one to break it and find the candy wins." His little boy lands a blow with a resounding "Whack!" bringing forth an angry swarm of wasps. His wife takes off her blindfold and exclaims "That's a wasps' nest not a piñata you idiot!" The NeoCon grabs her by the hair screams  "My friends Dick and Ariel showed me pictures of a piñata and it looked just like this! Now we have to swat them all or they'll follow us back into the house and sting us inside!!" Everybody starts to cry in pain from all the stings, but the NeoCon insists they all keep whacking at the nest until all the wasps are dead. Just as the wasps' nest is about to fall into pieces the NeoCon sees an even bigger hornets nest in a nearby tree and exclaims "There's another nest, lets get it before it gets us!!" Then he grabs his wife by the wrist and starts toward the second nest, as his kids franticly swatting at the swarms of angry wasps that surround them as they shriek in pain.

    •  Hmmmmm (0+ / 0-)

      You forgot the lefty standing back and lecturing the neocon but not offering any intelligent advice or providing any assistance to the neocon or his family.

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