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Welcome to the Planet of the Savage Strident DKos Feminist Supervixens!

This week's diary theme came from an email I received from a reader.  More below the intro.

"Feminist Supervixens" of every sex and gender are invited to participate in this discussion of feminism, women's issues, and anything even tangentially related.

This is a regularly-occurring "Feminists' Circle" for Daily Kos, where all the supercool feminist Supervixens can pull up a chair and chat, get things off their chests, and get to know each other.

Everyone is free to complain and moan and air their pet peeves - this forum can be "What's Your Fucking Feminist Problem?!" if you're in that frame of mind - but humor, fun, happy stories and congeniality are encouraged.



Notice to anyone who is NOT a feminist and wants to come here and complain about how bad feminism is, the problems inherent in feminism, etc.: you're welcome to write your own diary on the topic, but we don't want to talk about it here.  That's not what this diary is for.

Previous "episodes" in this diary series have been written by hrh, with guest-host diaries from mem from somerville (here and here), Elise, righteousbabe, and irishwitch. Some more guest-hosts are waiting in the wings. Feminists who are interested in being a guest-host can email hrh at: feministsupervixens (AT) yahoo.com

Here is the email I received from a Kossack who wishes to be anonymous:

I've been thinking a lot lately about how totally pissed off I was at Sen. Allen's comments. I'm in a mixed-race marriage, and it just hit that much closer to home. Would he call my husband that? My kids? Ugh, jerk of the highest order!! I've been oh so pleased that his polling has taken a plunge and donations have been pouring in for Webb. With any luck, this will drag down Allen so much he'll be kicked out of office. So, YAY for justice on that.

But....I started thinking, and again, I don't want to demean the importance of what happened with Allen, but would people make such a big deal about someone making an off-hand remark like that about WOMEN? And I can tell you from experience, the answer is no. Look at Arnold! His awful "girlie man" comment. Why is it ok for people to demean women all the time? Where is the outrage for us? Where is the plummeting in the polls? etc.

I really think this needs a diary. I think a nice title would be, "Woman is the Macaca of the World."

I completely agree.  For example, nearly every time I see a discussion of women doing "men's jobs" (e.g., playing contact sports, driving race cars, being in the military, being politicians) I see a few people trotting out the old stereotypes about gender abilities.  "Women" can't run fast enough, throw hard enough, have enough upper-body strength, carry enough weight, kill people efficiently enough, appeal to men/women enough, etc.

I always wonder: these gender stereotypes that flow so "trippingly on the tongue" - would they be accepted so readily if they were RACIAL stereotypes?

I believe - like John Lennon did, and expressed in his song "Woman is the Nigger of the World" - that, for some bizarre twisted reason, demeaning of women is still widely acceptable, even in societies that no longer tolerate the demeaning of minority races.

Many thanks to the anonymous Kossack who came up with such a great idea and title.

Originally posted to hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 03:58 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  some of the Lennon lyrics (22+ / 0-)

    Woman is the nigger of the world
    Yes she is...think about it
    Woman is the nigger of the world
    Think about it...do something about it

    We make her paint her face and dance
    If she won't be a slave, we say that she don't love us
    If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
    While putting her down, we pretend that she's above us

    Woman is the nigger of the world...yes she is
    If you don't believe me, take a look at the one you're with
    Woman is the slave of the slaves
    Ah, yeah...better scream about it

    We make her bear and raise our children
    And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
    We tell her home is the only place she should be
    Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend

    We insult her every day on TV
    And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
    When she's young we kill her will to be free
    While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb

    Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

    by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:02:57 PM PDT

    •  great title! (6+ / 0-)

      congratulations to you and ms. anonymous.

    •  Thank you hrh for the lyrics (7+ / 0-)

      I'd never heard of the song before and I'm not much for poetry but these are perhaps the most profound I've ever read. I've read them several times now.

      They are so true to my experience. Now I know why I get so frustrated when a man tells me to just have confidence, or not worry, or don't let what others think bother me.

      I could go on and on here.

      What. . . oh, I've wiped the file? Oh, damn. . . I've wiped ALL the files? . . . I've wiped the internet? Oh no, I don't even have a modem! Eddie Izzard

      by CSI Bentonville on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:15:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  get the record (4+ / 0-)

        Some Time in New York City

        Hear the music.  That's how it works the best.

        Lennon is my hero.  I never liked him much until I read about his experiences being a househusband.  More on that later - maybe on October 9, his birthday.

        I'm rediscovering George at the moment, which is marvelous.

        Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

        by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:26:21 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  George is fabulous (5+ / 0-)

          I rediscovered George at the beginning of this year. I can't understand why I had to "rediscover" him.

          I'm looking forward to your Lennon post.

          Also want to say, how much I appreciate that your Supervixens go up a bit earlier. It's easier for me to participate. Great series too btw.

          What. . . oh, I've wiped the file? Oh, damn. . . I've wiped ALL the files? . . . I've wiped the internet? Oh no, I don't even have a modem! Eddie Izzard

          by CSI Bentonville on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:32:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  George (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elie

            How did you rediscover George?  I just did a month or so ago when I heard a cut from his posthumous album on the radio, and I said "Wow, that sounds like George Harrison, but I've never heard it before".  

            Upon investigation, I found that the album, "Brainwashed", is really powerful.  Gotta love a dark handsome guy rockin' out, especially with a banjo.

            Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

            by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:58:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  While my guitar gently weeps (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hrh

              I don't know how someone controlled you
              They bought and sold you

              I look at the world and I notice it's turning
              While my guitar gently weeps
              With every mistake we must surely be learning
              Still my guitar gently weeps

              I look at you all see the love
              there that's sleeping
              while my guitar gently weeps.

              I was somewhere, like a restaurant and that song came on and of all the times I've heard it, that time hit me. The guitar is simply amazing on that song. I had George songs within a week. I'd never owned any before.

              George certainly was one that became better looking as he aged.

              So you would recommend Brainwashed?

              ~~~~

              A little OT:

              As far as cute guys with odd instruments, can't really beat Jack Johnson:

              The Jack Johnson version of the arena-rock, show-stopping moment was his soaring "Breakdown," when he busted out a ukulele and the stage was alight with tropical fish.

              But these are my favorite lyrics that really spoke to me at the time:

              I sang your songs I danced your dance
              I gave your friends all a chance
              But putting up with them
              Wasn’t worth never having you
              Maybe you’ve been through this before
              But it’s my first time so please ignore
              The next few lines because they’re directed at you

              ...

              Well if I was in your position
              I’d put down all my ammunition
              I’d wonder why it had taken me so long
              But lord knows that I’m not you
              And if I was I wouldn’t be so cruel
              Because waiting on love
              Ain’t so easy to do
              Must I always be waiting, waiting on you?
              Must I always be playing, playing your fool?

              What. . . oh, I've wiped the file? Oh, damn. . . I've wiped ALL the files? . . . I've wiped the internet? Oh no, I don't even have a modem! Eddie Izzard

              by CSI Bentonville on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 03:19:06 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh yes, "Brainwashed" is very cool (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                CSI Bentonville

                A bad album cover design, but the record is pure gold.

                George was always beautiful.  I've seen a candid photo of him from the Beatles' Shea Stadium concert that is instant knees-melting.  Those penetrating dark eyes - no bullshit - and the small soft smile, with his arm over the guitar.  "Lovable moptop"!

                Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                by hrh on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 05:11:22 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  And my husband's. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hrh, wiscmass

          Ibecame a Beatle's fan  int he late 80s after knwoinghim.

          In the 60s and 70s I ws a oflkie--Irish, msotly--and into Broadway (I was raised on thater, and got to see a lto of them onBroadway, the best thignabout living in Conn).

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:08:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I've been meaning (10+ / 0-)

        to write a diary about that actually, that lack of self-confidence that seems to be endemic in us women about certain things.  

        My husband and I have a webzine with, I would say, 50 throughout the few years of its existence.  Exactly 4 of those writers have been female (including myself) and I was trying to explain to him why I thought that was....  If I didn't help run the webzine - if I were just one of our readers - I know that I would see that writers were needed but it would never even occur to me to actually apply.  I would think that I would be laughed at, or told I wasn't good enough (even though I'm a damn good writer, if I say so myself) or think that I just wouldn't measure up in some way.  It seems to me that most women look at themselves this way, as if no matter how good we are, we're still never quite good enough....  

        And he just couldn't understand why that would be.

        "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

        by tryptamine on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 06:33:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That sounds a lot like Zora Neale Hurston (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine

      in her book Their Eyes Were Watching God.  A grandmother was trying to toughen her granddaughter up for the life she would have (early 20th century) as a black woman. Grandmother said, (paraphrased) that being a black man was so hard, he had to do everything the white people didn't want to do--except that then he turned around and put it on the black woman.  She said, "A black woman is [sic] the mule of the world."

      Beside that being a woman AND black give a person two shots at being disrespected, the one--being a woman--still brings out insulting behavior and words.  It is amazing to me that so many men still are hauling around those attitudes.

      I read something by a psychologist once who theorized that men who cling so tightly to seeing women as less than . . . competent, strong, skilled . . . while real women are right in front of them, demonstrating how competent and skilled they are, damage their reasoning ability because they have to do some major rationalization to keep looking down on women.  Reasoning ability in general was affected.  That must be a tremendous effort they make, to not see reality in front of them.

  •  You already know the answer to that question (13+ / 0-)

    Sadly, it would barely make a blip at this stage of society's development.

    That just means there's more work to do.

    Before you win, you have to fight. Come fight along with us at TexasKaos.

    by boadicea on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:03:19 PM PDT

  •  wow, finally I see one of your diaries! (12+ / 0-)

    I'm usually asleep when you post them.

    Anyway, that was off-topic.

    We were actually talking about something similar this evening - similar to the "woman doing a man's job" thing.

    Have you ever noticed that stupid saying "the lovely and talented [woman's name here]?"  What the hell does that mean?  It sounds like it should be one word:

    lovelyandtalented

    As in, "wow, she's both attractive AND she has a brain!"

    Yuck.  Like it's a bizarre phenomenon or something.

    Or like a woman is less than, well, what she should be if she doesn't conform to whatever is meant by "lovely".

    Hope that made sense.  I'm tired.

    Recommended, by the way.

  •  And look at how all female politicians (14+ / 0-)

    are demeaned...right now, the republicans are using Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton to scare their base into action.  To be fair, it isn't just the republican base that we need to worry about...sadly, its much more widespread.

  •  nothing really to add (10+ / 0-)

    except i'm thrilled to see you using the lennon song, and in this context.  when i saw the diary title, i knew it was an allusion.

    well done.

    generally i just read and learn on the supervixen series, but i did want to offer my congratulations, hrh.

  •  Hello Supervixens! (11+ / 0-)

    I made it....major work crunch right now.  No rest for this vixen.

    It is so true, there's plenty of derogatory things you can get away with saying about women.  But not just by the Allens of the world, for sure.

    On the other hand....sometimes I have to admit, I have used others underestimation of me to my advantage.  I don't look slick, or terribly smart, or much of anything.  People tell you things....people let down their barriers....people aren't too threatened by my look and I think I can sometimes sneak into situations that otherwise might be different.  

    Hmmm....secret is out now....

  •  LA Times article about women baseball players (6+ / 0-)

    "Mr. President, Stay the Course is a not a strategy, it's a slogan..." Nancy Pelosi - David Letterman 8/22/06

    by PatsBard on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:23:49 PM PDT

    •  Strong is beautiful (5+ / 0-)

      This is one guy who thinks strong ladies are sexy -- and stereotypes are bogus. To teh woman complaining about women being portrayed as weak, I know there are plenty of physically strong women...and they're just as sexy if not sexier.

      "We support your war of terror!" -- Borat Sagdiyev (a/k/a Sacha Baron Cohen)

      by FischFry on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:54:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My husband thinsk the WIlliams sisters (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, wiscmass, PatsBard

        are sexy as hell, and I approve of the women he tends to admire. ABout the only one he likes to looka who's a bim,bo was Anna Nicole SMith back in 93 at her fighting weight ( a reasonable one, and a size 14 when she was the Guess Jeans mdoel) but he siad, "SHe is at her best in a photo--if you ahve to listen toher, you'd do nits."

        He also thinsk brains are sexy.  

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:00:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How do you feel about...? (0+ / 0-)

          How do you feel about your husband saying the Williams sisters are 'sexy as hell.' I had an ex who did not appreciate my attraction to athletic women...as she felt this meant I was attracted to something she was not. I tried to explain that I can be attracted to someone, and that has nothing to do with a love relationship -- nor does it mean that I can't be attracted to other women who are total opposites. She still resented it and would throw it out at me when she was upset. Are you cool with it?

          "We support your war of terror!" -- Borat Sagdiyev (a/k/a Sacha Baron Cohen)

          by FischFry on Tue Sep 26, 2006 at 08:18:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am FINE with it. (0+ / 0-)

            I am the oppositeof atheletic. Myhsuband has pretty broad taste in what he consdioers sexy--the sole exception being skinny as rail models like Kate Moss and the heroin chich girls--thsoe he finds sad.

            WHy should I feel jealous. Looking isn'tt he same as doing. Besides any woman or man who thinks that their mate or lover DOESN'T fantasize about others is lyin' to themselves.   Myhsuband knows the hero of my novel is based on James SPader circa 2002 when Secretary came out--he doesn't have hissy fits over my writing VERY graphic sex scenesinvolving my Spaderish hero.

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Thu Sep 28, 2006 at 05:38:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  tears in my eyes now (4+ / 0-)

      Many, many thanks for the article.  

      I am such a baseball fan that I attended a baseball workshop that Bill Lee was teaching.  I was the only woman in the group.  He taught me how to throw a curveball.  Heaven.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:05:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Along those lines... (5+ / 0-)

      ...the Dodgers have a woman assistant GM, Kim Ng. Before they hired John DePodesta as GM, she was rumored to be one of the finalists for the job. A lot of people think she could become the first woman to run player personnel for a major league ballclub.

      Thwarting the forces of idiocy since 1978. -6.38, -6.00

      by wiscmass on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:52:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then there is the first woman in a major league (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, wiscmass, CSI Bentonville

        baseball dugout--massage therapist for the Padres.  Mets male broadcaster went ballistic on the air--women should never be permitted in the dugout--what is she doing there, etc.  Broadcaster was reprimanded by his network and the woman is still in the dugout.  The Padres players supported her in the press.

    •  I'm not a baseball fan (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PatsBard, CSI Bentonville

      but I love hockey and soccer.  I was really surprised when I happened to catch a women's professional soccer game and found myself more engrossed than I was watching the World Cup...  

      And I realized that it was because I could identify with them a lot more easily.

      "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

      by tryptamine on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:55:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I do remember the U.S. female team member (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine

        admitting after the big Rosebowl win that she jumped the gun a bit on her winning kick.  Hard to imagine a male professional athlete stating that to the press.  They aree savvy enough to just shrug their shoulders.

        •  But you could also argue (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          oculus

          that she was simply fulfilling a societal expectation of women, that whenever we do something good, we're supposed to be "modest" and deny how good it was....

          But yeah, she should definitely have just focused on the fact that she made a goal and they won because of it.

          (Are you a soccer fan yourself then?)

          "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

          by tryptamine on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:57:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "twould make a really interesting diary. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine

            I agree with you, but I really look at is a restriction women place on themselves--such a recurring theme--do a great job, put yourself down.  My high school music teacher insisted I accept a compliment on my performance w/o instantly pointing out the flaws.  Still hard to remember to do this.  

            No, I'm not really a soccer fan, but my daughter got me interested in that that Rose Bowl game.

  •  Thats ok (7+ / 0-)

    Supervixens are taking over everything. Soon, this country will be run by Supervixens and I for one (considering myself one as well) cannot wait for that day to come. Although, I don't think any of my ex-boyfriends will be voting for me ;)

  •  Hello ladies...and gentlemen feminists (10+ / 0-)

    This is my first (of hopefully many) post to Supervixens!  

    Hey, if you really want to feel really demeaned, I highly recommend spending some time as a female, vocal, atheist, church-state separation activist.  That'll definitely give you a good look down the shit-hole we've been crawling out of for, oh, centuries now.

    Great timing for this tonight...at lunch I was in my car waiting at a traffic light and an ad for a car repair place came on the radio and I found myself hearing the owner's several references to the broken down, but now fixed car as "she."  "She was on her last leg," "everything she had under the hood was shot," "now she's runnin' like a hot" somethin'er-other.... I had a thought that men always refer to their cars, motorcycles, boats, hell, riding lawnmowers in the feminine.  Why is that?  I have some ideas [having to do with patriarchal bullshit], but I'd love to hear your ideas, and your opinions on what it all means.

    You cannot change this. You can't erase this. You can't pretend this is not the truth. -Melissa Etheridge

    by LisaR on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:36:12 PM PDT

  •  While I think you make (7+ / 0-)

    a really good point in this diary - that denigration of women isn't taken seriously enough - I'm a little uncomfortable with the framing, because I've heard so many different groups say exactly this: "we're the only ones you can insult and get away with it."  I've heard it from overweight people, from working-class white men, from Christians.  And I think it's true about women, and certainly not true about Christians, for instance.  But it still makes me uncomfortable to see the rhetorical tactic legitimized.

    •  I don't consider it a "rhetorical tactic" (3+ / 0-)

      I consider it to be the truth.

      Which is the best rhetorical tactic.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:10:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The truth can always be (11+ / 0-)

        presented in multiple ways.  And I'm sure John Hostettler considers it the truth when he says Christians are discriminated against.  I think you're right and he's wrong, but if we're looking for ways to think critically about the world, convince people to see it as we do, promote our understanding of the truth - well, if we want to do that, making ourselves sound like self-pitying wingnuts isn't necessarily the way to go.

        •  if you think I'm right and he's wrong, (0+ / 0-)

          why do you spend so much energy trying to counter me and argue with me - and others who vocally support feminism?

          What's the problem here?

          Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

          by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:30:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The problem is (15+ / 0-)

            that by reinforcing their tactic by using it ourselves, we help legitimize it for them and it makes it easier for them to cry that their being persecuted when in fact their not...which in effect, demeans our point...which is absolutely a fact and shouldn't be demeaned.

            •  crock of shit n/t (1+ / 2-)
              Recommended by:
              PhantomFly
              Hidden by:
              Avila, Balam

              Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

              by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:20:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  But then we end up with nothing left but silence (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, hrh, CSI Bentonville

              We can't make any argument, because as soon as we do, they take that frame & apply it to themselves, via their media -- and very soon, whatever new frame we came up with has been coopted.

              Think about the words "treason", or "fascism" -- without getting into those (legal) discussions, in the current climate, it's hard to use thos eterms accurately, because they've been inaccurately used against us.

              Deity of choice... services daily on Comedy Central. Communal worship live here at dKos 11pm Mon-Thurs

              by TiaRachel on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:52:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No, not at all... (7+ / 0-)

                "we're the only ones you can insult and get away with it."

                This frame doesn't help our cause. Not in any way shape or form. If I heard this about any group my first instinct would be...wow...what a bunch of whining generalized crap.

                How in the world does that help feminism?

                It doesn't. It isn't difficult to argue that women are mistreated. It's a fact...no need for a generalizing whine...

                •  It works if you can brign concrete examples of (4+ / 0-)

                  it to the table. Problem is, MEN usually don't SEE these examples as issues.  Because they are the norm.

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:23:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I think that's true for (10+ / 0-)

                    some men and not true for others...of course there are women who don't have a problem with being the "second" sex too.

                    We simply have to keep educating. Honestly though, suggesting that we're the only group in the world that it's acceptable to ridicule? Well, it's not true...and I think it's offensive because it isn't true. What about homosexuals? What about AIDS patients? What about Muslims in America? There are lots of groups who are ridiculed and treated as poorly as women are treated. Unfortunately.

                    We just have to keep working to change that.

                    •  I odn't think msot don't intentionally (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tryptamine, hrh, Elise, CSI Bentonville

                      not see it--they're jsut clueless and take ti so for granted that they miss obvious stuff.

                      But lennon's song had  point--and stiulld oes. Yoko Ono woke the guy UP. We need to wake up a LOT of lliberal men--look at the comemtns you get if you dare to raise your vocie and criticize the wisdom of runnign a Casey  whenthere HAD to be competent Congressmen who could ahve fileld that seat handily. But whenyoupoint otu Casey got the backing becasue Daddy was a Name and he's an isndier--your'e called a signle issue voter (I didn't find any of hsi record very appealoingfranlly; abortionw as merely the last straw--sadly I am in GA so my chocies will be equally bad)  or shrill or strident.

                      It is still very much an Old Boys club that reluctantly allows girls into the gallery seats.

                      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                      by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:42:28 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yeah...literally EVERY (8+ / 0-)

                        time I said Casey wasn't a good idea I was called a "single issue voter" and still am today...

                        Although now that he's the nominee...he's obviously better than Santorum. What I didn't know about him...and honestly, what made me feel a little better about him is that he apparently supports unfettered access to Plan B and all birth control and supports comprehensive sex-ed.

                        •  Thayt MIGHT change (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Elise

                          if the Pope decides to exclude pols from communion who support birth control.  ANd I wouldn't past him. LIBERAL Catholcis won't put up with it--but I think Casey is more cosnervative than, say Kerry or Teddy K.  THAT worries me.  Thing is, msot Catholcis are pised at the Pope for pulling this crap, and over 70% thinkt he bishops shoudl stay out of it.

                          Somehwo "margianlly better than Santorum" isn't much to offer.   I am SOOO tired of the Beltway IOnsider mentality, whioch is why I think we need to refuse to work for anti-chocie candidates and write in pro-chocie as a protestl.. It iwll take an elction cycle to get itthrough to them which is why I think we will ahve tog et busy planning for 2008.

                          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                          by irishwitch on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:02:13 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  interesting point. (3+ / 0-)

                            I can't imagine most catholic Americans being very happy with the Pope if he did that....since over 50% of Catholics are pro-choice...

                            Of course, THIS Pope has clearly shown that he's a terrible politician...and of course that's something he has NO business being involved in. I really wish he'd just shut up and read a book...

                            I know "better than Santorum" isn't great...and I agree we need to work hard to prevent pro-life candidates from winning primaries in the future.

                          •  This Pope killed ANY hope (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            tryptamine, Elise

                            I might have had of ever reconciling witht he church.  And well-educated Catholics LOATHE him and his threats. I think the only ones who really like him are people like Mel Gibson, the fundy Catholics.  

                            I STILL can't forgive him for his role in getting Hans Kung banned from teaching at Catholic colleges--the man, alogn with Teilhard de Chardin, was one of the two best theological minds of the Cahtolic  church in the last century--up there with Aquinas in the eyes of many theolgians.  A genuinely good and loving man.  But not  coming fromt he 12th century mentality that Ratzi the Nazi considers the only true one.

                            I never wanted to leave the church  but between Paul VI, JPII and Ratzi, I had no chocie.  I couldn't go Prot becasue the oNE thing that  Catholicism has in its favor is the senseof the Female Divine in the form of Mary---and I ended up pagan because really, Hinduism  just doesn't work for a Celt, and this was the only other faith I could find with a sense of the Female Divine. Irish Catholicism really is very pagan in its attitudes (half the saints used to be gods or goddesses)

                            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                            by irishwitch on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 04:41:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Years ago I picked candidates by gender (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            tryptamine, CSI Bentonville

                            only going to vote for a woman if she ran.  Came to realize there are good and bad women, same for women politicians.  Learned more years ago than I want to think about that one issue voting is a loser.  Choosing a candidate because of their position on abortion resulting in dividing the democrats and allowing the GOP to use that issue to win elections.  Early on, we worked with GOP women who supported choice to field our candidates.

                            This is long story, short.  The crux is that I saw the list of special interests grow until there were so many divisions in the Democratic party, the GOP could win easier.  I think abortion is an awful political issue and a really poor one to use in choosing and fielding candidates.  More important to me now than whether a pol is pro-choice or pro-life is what they believe their responsibility to the voters is in regard to the issue.

                            I've been a feminist long enough to have lived through the Betty Friedan, Second Revolution of I'm a feminist but.....of the 80's.  The predictions were pretty accurate.

                            Some of my best friends are men who joined the movement and I don't pretend to understand the dustup here because I have barely read any of it but I did see what I thought was resentment for a male coming here to defend a female.  That jogged my memory of the resentment some feminists had about men joining the movement.

                            Men were just going to take over, put us back in the house barefoot and pregnant.  They would rob us of our independence.  We wanted our rights.  The right to smoke cigarettes, like men until we were the leaders in long cancer and heart disease.  Same was true about alcoholism.  We drank and our bodies were less able to handle alcohol because of the way we process the alcohol in our livers.  We got more liver damage, cancer of liver, etc.

                            So currently I am still a feminist, have never stopped being one, but the most important thing to me right now is being a Democrat who is absolutely focused on getting Democratic candidates elected to public offices so that we even have a hope of living in a world where any member of the population will have any kind of equality or justice.

                            Single issue voting has never proven to be anything other than a loser.  And with the Bushies in office it has gotten immeasurably worse each passing year.

                            So let's get to work on the election or it truly won't be very damn important whether we are women, men, or children.  And it sure won't matter which ethnicity or cultural heritage is either.  Racism is so previlent and seems to be the norm.  We have a lot of work to do after we change the electoral landscape but for now that is the single, most important we have.

                            PaintyKat

                            Thou Shalt NOT Whine...Get to WORK! Just a painty kat - NOT that be meanie cat

                            by PaintyKat on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 11:58:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't think it's acceptable at all (5+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tryptamine, hrh, Elise, oculus, elie

                      Maybe I'm just naive, but I would say that it isn't so much that it is "acceptable" as it is very widespread.  I would hope that the consensus amongst intelligent enlightened people is that all forms of discrimination are wrong - whether condoned by large segments of society or not.  For some reason sexism is particularly insidious and prevalent, subliminal and unconscious, and as such will be very difficult to extinguish.  Baby steps though . . . keep up the fight!!!  Don't let the flame of feminism burn out.  For some reason it seems as if there is a rise in women considering themselves the "second" sex.  I blame it on christian fundamentalism and the entertainment industry in equal measure.  Blech.  Is there anything good that comes from TV????

                      "Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

                      by Progressive Liberaltarian on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 09:10:17 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I vocally support feminism. (14+ / 0-)

            Always have, always do, always will.

            In this case, I'm arguing tactics.  What is best for feminism?  How do we best and most effectively make feminist critiques of society?

            Arguing with you does not mean I'm arguing with feminism, unless you're claiming for yourself the role of One True Arbiter of Feminism.

            •  Ithink some of us Old Broads (13+ / 0-)

              like me are tired of beign Nice Girls.  I am really just Fed Up. I see everythign my generation worked to get for the yougner women here, falling away.

              And frankly I am angry.

              AS to the christian Right's claim to be discrimianted agaisnt--that usual;ly refers to not being allowed to force Christian prayers and Bible reading into public schools, not beign able to turn  public school sorts events into prayer meetings, and not being allowed to get all themoney they want for fiathbased rograms--whcih are disasters if the ONLY AA or drug rehab in a rural area is chruch run if you aren't that brand of christianity.

              I odn't want us to go victim--I don't think hrh does either. But we need to marshall our foces asnd hwo that women STILL make less moeny for men witht he ame number of years at the job and same training --even if youa ccount for time off for child rasiing.  A report came out thsi week that proved LArry SUmmers suggestiont aht maybe women don't succeed ins cience because they're not as good for bilogical rasons or becasue they are more conerned iwth child rearing. Thsi meta study disproved all that hogwash guys Still claim to be true HERE--except for Armando who has been vitriolic ont he subject for whcih I lvoe him dearly.

              We need to shwo that discrimaintions till exits, dig up stas and evidence to prove that we still get shafted BADLY..  Current Newsweek online has a lot of the info. WOrth reading.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:16:31 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes! (4+ / 0-)

                After all the times I got on you last week, I have to say that you hit the nail on the head with this one.

                "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

                by tryptamine on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:30:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I was right last week too (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tryptamine, hrh, elie

                  What I wasn't, was tactful.  And that in a  woman is mortal sin. BTW, I apolgized to  another liberal--don't knwo if he or she has faced jsut how sexist the "in a mood" remark really was. The enxt one was gonnabe asking if I was PMSing--adn I had emade it clear in an early psot i was in severe pain andhad soem very serious loife issues to deal with. I'd like to se ehow chipper and warm and fuzzy s/he'd be if S'he learned she was about to becoem homeless (whichmay yet ahppen; doens't look like we'll even get to lvie in the pretty crappy subsidized hosuing--and I have lived  in crappy hsouing asn thsi is pretty damned awful).

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:45:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think you had a point last week. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tryptamine, CSI Bentonville

                    My frustration was that both Mike S and another liberal made comments and then they were attacked fairly quickly...when they defended themselves things got worse even faster...and then of course they went on the defensive and it made things even more terrible.

                    I didn't see their comments as sexist...but if I had I would have used that moment as an opportunity to explain why I saw them as sexist...it could have been a good teaching moment...

                    ah well...it's done. Next time...

                    On another note...I hope things start to get better for you. If you don't mind my asking...where are you? I know you're in the south...I'm just wondering if there's anything I can do to help?

                    •  I don't think much can be done. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tryptamine, Elise, elie

                      I am in Gwinnett county.  It's a rpotten palce, and I LOATHE It here, and we plan to leave ASAP once he graduates--if Dadmoves up, we stay as long as he lbvies if that's past the dat eof grduation.  It's a bad palce for me.  I have NYC persoanlity in many ways--I say what I think but I try not to hurt peopel's feelings andapologize when I do.  The inlaws never apolgoize and smae sis basically fot us tossed out in 2003, whcih left us fighting to get back on our feet and we never managed to--Ben worked as a CNA, and it really wans't enough to lvie on  and pay half the money we had in rent.  It's nto liek we're extrrvagant.  I went to THREEmovies betwen may and Spetember--and alwasy at the reduced rates.  I dont' think we've been a real resturant since last year.  My ckothes come from Wally WOrld becasue making them is mroe expensive--fabric ismroe expensive. I HATE doing this, but since all I have bought this year are a pair o knit guachos and two tanks, I don't feel too guilty.  Basically I plan to NEVER darken its doors ownce I can afford not to.  I'll go back to sewing.

                      So betweent he ssi-inlaws using emotioanl balckmail--I am simply praying that we can find a hosue and work out somethign with the real estate people tog et Dad up here FAST.  Difficult as he is, theletter I wrote him (long on facts, utterly unemotional) DID make some headway and he DOES relaizet hat it isnt' fiar toexpect us to exsit in a single room (comptuer deska dna ll) and ahve no proivacy.

                      I am jsut haning on by my fignernails.

                      Thanls for caring.

                      I DO wish we coudl get an Atlanta meet up going.  We're broke but hey, I can really nurse a bber.  I'd even volutneer to ahndle it.

                      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                      by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 09:01:11 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  oh.. how sad... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      hopscotch1997

                      Why didn't you see their remarks as sexist?

                      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                      by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:02:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Gotcha! (3+ / 0-)

                I read Fetching Jen this week.  She's my pet wingnut blogger.  She was going on about how the feminist movement has done its work and needs to go away(and all the feminists too).  She uses every negative feminist stereotype and manages to characterize every woman she doesn't like as a nasty, lying, backstabbing feminist.

                She doesn't even bother to thank the feminist movement for the advances they have made.  I suppose she thinks female contraception, nontraditional employment opportunities and everything else just happened "naturally".

                We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

                by Fabian on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:14:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  How about... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tryptamine, hrh, TiaRachel, irishwitch

            ...because it's objectively true that women aren't treated so good? I mean, we could just break out the male privelege checklist to help prove your point.

        •  To be fair: (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, Elise, elie

          well, if we want to do that, making ourselves sound like self-pitying wingnuts isn't necessarily the way to go.

          9 times out of 10, I can't stand hrh, but that was not how the diary came across to me. The way I read it was that she was taking a John Lennon song and working it into an argument about women in the world. I'm not sure I agree with all of it, but it did make me think a lot.

          On the other hand, I think she completely overreacted in this thread.

      •  After reading several weeks of these diaries, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, hopscotch1997

        it seems inevitable they spiral off into a huge spat.  Not all that helpful to discussing feminist issues in such a public forum.

    •  Poor people. (5+ / 0-)

      Am I the only person around here who has a problem with how acceptible it is to be classist in our society???  Animus towards the poor is expressed proudly and without hesitation.  It's absolutely disgusting, and I can't believe that most people seem to be OK with it.

      "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

      by Balam on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 02:00:02 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, (6+ / 0-)

        you're not the only one.  I think it is absolutely disgusting when I hear people talking about the poor like they aren't even human; I've been poor-ish most of my life, through no fault of my own and in spite of all my efforts otherwise....

        And I think that the mistreatment of the poor comes from the same place as mistreatment of women, animals, other races, etc.  It's all disgusting and all of it should be condemned.

        "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

        by tryptamine on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:42:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Agreed, and (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, Elise, CSI Bentonville, elie

          it also really disturbs me that some people think some of these forms of bigotry should be condemned, but not all of them.

          "Leave the gun ... take the cannoli." -8.38, -7.69

          by Balam on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 08:43:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, isn't it their own fault? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, CSI Bentonville

          One person has, and the other doesn't, which to a whole lot of unmentionable adjective persons means that both had a chance, and obviously the one who didn't try/care/have pride/is lazy/is stupid/ didn't take the chance that was right there in front of her.

          I advocate, regularly, for affordable housing, to community groups that don't want "those people" in their neighborhood, to political gatherings, you name it.  I clean up very good, with my nice suit and my articulateness and my attractive but not threatening middle-aged womanness.  Once the comments about "those people"--the ones that live in below-market/affordable/low income housing start and escalate, that's when I announce, not smiling but they think so because I'm showing my teeth, that I am one of "those people."

          Sometimes they get quiet enough for me to explain how the real world works.  

    •  I agree with Miss Laura (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, CSI Bentonville

      Maybe it is sociology but part of my journey involves seeing this competition between disparate groups all claiming to be the one group that is truly the most discriminated against, group most in need of reparations, or whatever correction at the moment.

      I am at a point that I believe we need to fix some really important things in our country while we still have one left and that we need to kind of put some things in second place while we devote our efforts to getting folks elected that might be a start toward getting folks who can lead this country ably and fairly.  Change of leadership will help as a first step.

      I am still as passionate about feminist issues but I have also seen a great deal of improvement in the opportunities for women in my lifetime.  I don't suggest conditions are ideal but I feel reasonably confident that either one of my grandaughters have an adequate opportunity for access to higher education and can choose a career to which they aspire.  And I feel like their opportunities are pretty darn good when I look back to my grandmother's generation, my mother's, my own, my DILs (no daughters), and now two wonderful grandaughters.

      I am actually quite confident about their access in regard to education and employment in the future but it truly will not make a difference if we don't stop Bush and his crew.  None of us will have a chance.

      So better than Santorum isn't the best but it is a good start for developing a strong party.  We can't do it without a majority.  Once we have that majority then we can all start working on issues and working with our legislators.  And it can be done.

      It was exciting to be part of the movement to stop Bork's nomination to the Supreme Court but I also remember the first slap down we got.  That was Clarence Thomas' nomination and appointment to the Supreme Court.  But it is our time again and we just need to work together to get there.

      PaintyKat

      Thou Shalt NOT Whine...Get to WORK! Just a painty kat - NOT that be meanie cat

      by PaintyKat on Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 12:19:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I get so tired of being called unpleasant (8+ / 0-)

    adjectives when I stand up for women.  It is so reminiscent of KKK tactics. And lately it's become acceptable again.

    Sometimes I am so tired and depressed by it all, I just feel like crying or screaming.

    Now I am OFF to relax.  Last night was tome consuming, and arguing with one poster who keeps wanting to debate" human rights' of fetuses......well, suffice it to say I want to throw soemthignebcasue s/he kept  ignoring the answers I gave and the reasoning behind them....and that jsut pisses me off, and becasue of the  hosuign situation, I am a wreck to start with.

    The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

    by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:47:30 PM PDT

    •  it's OK, you have support here (2+ / 0-)

      From me, at least.

      And please send me your email address, yet again, because I've lost it, dammit... every time I come home from a trip there are thousands of spam messages in my inbox, and my email program falters and won't download.  It sucks.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:58:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you were certainly amazing (5+ / 0-)

      irishwitch - i spent half my life arguing that argument that your troll was spewing.  i know where s/he was coming from, but i have since "seen the light" as it were...human rights of fetuses at the expense of the mother?  unreal...and i applaud you and your diligent efforts against said troll :)

      -9.38/-8.26 "The task of the DFL is to ask people to connect the dots...Connect the dots and we win!" - Jim Klobuchar

      by cats in the curry on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:02:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I DOudnerstand where this person is coming from. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, hrh, TiaRachel, elie

        But when the starting points are so utterly alien,a nd the other person is DEDICATED to  intentionally misreading what you say, and to converting you--it's pointless.   Basically EBERUYTHIGN they said was a Religious Reich talking point, despite eh claims to the not being a Christian--which is possible but not likely.  I grew up Catholic. I KNOW the arguments.  I rejected those arguments.  Having you cousin risk her life to give the anencephalic fetus she carried a better shot (so they could baptize it, basically) wakes you up. This was the Glamorous Cousins ho backpacked through Europe and skied and had foreign boyfriends--I IDIOLIZED her at 14.  When THIS happened, it made me think ahrd. I was righteous babe by 15.  And parted company with the church permanently at 20 once and for all.  Spent 5 years searching though Wicca had always called to me, andthsi was the late 60s when NO ONE had even heard of it.  

        I really get tired of being told that pointing out the danger the Religious Reich poses, is Christian Bashing.  That's like saying that if you point out that the radical Islamists who peach  jihad as warfare, nto perfecting your soul,  are a fairly non-typical interpretation of the Quran is bashing Islam.  The Reich are OUR Christian jihadists,a nd theya rent afraid to sue force.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:43:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Take a break! (4+ / 0-)

      I think we can all tell that you are burnt out and you need some time off.  I know you probably can't take a vacation or even get some time alone in your house, but maybe you could spend a day at the park and just relax and recharge....  Take care of yourself, in other words!  

      "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

      by tryptamine on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:18:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  We could all use "a day at the park"! (2+ / 0-)

        But there are issues that have to be brought up.

        I greatly value Irishwitch's contributions to the Supervixens community and to the DKos community at large, and while I offer her my wholehearted support, I would NEVER suggest that she "take a break".

        Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

        by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:33:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll be aorund,jsut ned to do soem fiction for a (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine

          bit. It recharges my hjuices. Once I knwo what will be happening--whether we'll be living under an overpass, in the really DREADFUL subsidized hosuing (as bas on the otuside as the worst base hosuign I've lived in) which doesn't look possible for several reasons (as in we're nto qualified becaue we ahve debts; why the hell woudl someone WNAT tolive in  a dump unelss they were desperate?  Oh, forgot--DESERVING PORR only need help) or with Dad---I'l be clamer. WOrryign about imminent homelessness is really exhausting.

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:38:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No fear (0+ / 0-)

            No fear.  NO FEAR.

            Email me -- I can talk you through this.

            Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

            by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:58:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Will do. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tryptamine, elie

              It'sahrd not be afraid at 56.   I KNOW it'll work it and I am giving it to Goddess--and may do a quiet ritual eventhough I swore I wouldn't while livingher. I f we are beign thrown out, I figure the deal is OFF.  WHat hurts the msot is that her SON has paid her back in hours and horus (14-18 every damned weekend since  May) of backbreakling labor at her Pre-K.   She has relaly made it clear where he ranks int he family peckign order--belwo everyoen (I don't even  exist in it).

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:11:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  irishwitch (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tryptamine, hrh

                i will be thinking of you, wishing you a peaceful and healthy rest...

                we've met before on "christian bashing" issues, and we may meet again.  but i hope you never doubt the respect that i have for you and what you do for this site.  your diary yesterday, as well as your strong presence in the face of that troll, are an example to me of what  leadership on this site can be.

                (and i think you should do that ritual. that "deal" is not about religion or respect, but control.   you need to take care of yourself right now.  good luck and peace to you)

                •  Thankyou (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tryptamine, elie

                  I genuinely respect Christians.  I do. Mom was a terrific example of what one should be.  FOr her it wasn'ta bout going to Mass--it was about kindness.  My problem with the  Religious Reich (a small but vocal and powerful section of the Christian Right, who unfortunately have a lot of clout and are, for soem strange reason, respected byt the conservative Christians who ARE the real thing) is that they want the first amendment to protect THEM and their right to worship as they choose--but not that it appleis equally to everyone. I understnad where it comes from--it's deeply embedded in Calvinsit doctrine-- but that doesn't make them less a danger to less coercive Christians and non-Christians alike.  I started soundign this alarm int he 80s and everyone thought I was mad to fear a "buncha marginal right-wing religious fanatics"--but lok at the ower of a Dobson and his pals, and I was proved right.

                  What I want tis to protect the rest of the Christians as well as people like me from these guys because they DO want a theocracy (event hopugh msot of them don't really understand what it means) , and they're not much different fromt he Taliban in way too many ways.   I think whoever christiened them Talibaptists said it all.  And alot of liberal Christians are as worried as Iam--the whole talk2action crew.  MOST folks there are Christians of variosu stripes, and they see the same issues I do.

                  When it coems to women's and gay issues--this is the tip of the iceber for their agenda.  And if they win I will leave this coutnry because it means it no longer deserves freedom.  I wil go soemwhere womena re recognized as people with rights. Gays too, andminorities (whom it seems ever more acepatbale to hate).

                  The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

                  by irishwitch on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 01:16:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Everyone needs time (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          northsea, CSI Bentonville

          to recharge and it seems like irishwitch has been more stressed out than she usually is lately.  I'm sure I would be too, in her situation.

          Besides, I specifically avoided suggesting that she take a break from dKos because I understand that she is passionate and that we all have to fight every chance we get.  But even soldiers need a vacation now and then.

          "The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves." - William Hazlitt

          by tryptamine on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:14:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Parks are BAD with my hayfever! (0+ / 0-)

        I am taking some time off--I ned to write. And this weekend it's back to hosue huntign this time ebcasue the one we wanted for Dad and us, got sold--but there are other possiblities, same plan, smaller lot (which means less work for Ben).

        I haven't had  vacation since 2001.   I've gotten sto spend TWO weekends at a fetish con in 2002 ans 2003--that ws it.  Not gonna have one for a LONG time as it goes.

        But doing some creative writing will help.  

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:35:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  ok heres my bitch (13+ / 0-)

    I am a single parent and my son has been sick on and off for a week and a half.

    I am extremely lucky to have an understanding boss, and a flexible schedule, but the juggling is killing me and putting me at wits end.

    Today I ran my son to the doctor early in the morning, ran him home to take the medication he got and rest a bit, (while trying to make phone calls for work) ran him back to school, ran to pick up something I had to get for work, ran to work for two hours, and then back to school to pick him up.

    I have been playing this tune for 7 years since I became a single parent,and I am tired

    On my way back to pick him up I listened to NPR and heard how the govt in France is giving mothers 1000 a month to stay home and have kids. How there is govt subsidized childcare and preschool, that you can get maternity leave for 3 years, and be guaranteed a job when you go back to work.
    they have the highest birth rate in europe, as well as one of the highest rates of female employment!

    Listening to that I just got mad. I want to say to our country Put your money where your mouth is! show me the frigging family values Our contry doesnt really give a shit about raising kids right, and we show it by underfunding healthcare, childcare, and schools.

    My son is not doing as well as he could in school right now - not really badly, but just drifting, not enjoying it much as he was before... I am thinking of trying to find another school, but I cant really afford the private school which I think he would really like.  The opportunities in public education are pretty scanty.

    ok, end of rant. now I gotta go take kids to soccer.
    thanks for the opportunity to rant. :)
    peace.

    l'shanah haba'ah bi neworleans

    by biscobosco on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:52:22 PM PDT

    •  Family Values (9+ / 0-)

      only apply to families withe RIGHT values, where Mom isn't a single parent, doesn't work at anything till the kids are in college, only goes out to Bible study, volunteering t some church activity (but during the day only while the kids re at school),  and generally stays silent n the presence of me.

      The more I look at the fight we're in, the more I that the  Extreme Religious Right is a really BIG part of our problem-=-and they have somehow hornswaggled the rest of the country into believing THEIR values are the Right Values (in all senses of the word).

      The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

      by irishwitch on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:56:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Doesn't sound like you have a second of "extra (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Elise

      time," but, investigating the public school system to find out if there are other possibilities within that system may produce a solution.  For example, at least in the past, our public school system had a counselor come to the school and administer tests such as WISP and Stanford/Binet.  Kids throughout the system who were tested were ranked, and that list was the entree to seminar classes--15 kids, lots of independent study and much more interesting school work.  Also, magnet schools, set up in an affirmative action age, but with specialties, such as performing arts, math and science, health care sciences.  

      •  thanks (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tryptamine, oculus

        Yeah I have done a lot of research. my state ranks consistently as one of the bottom feeders as far as spending on public education.

        There are magnet schools, etc. but there is no magic bullet in the public school system. it comes down to class size and budget cuts, as well as not enough support for teachers and administration.

        Also the lack of general parent invovlement. I am involved at my sons school, and I have mixed feelings about what I see there.

        l'shanah haba'ah bi neworleans

        by biscobosco on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 05:02:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  biscobosco, it's really really hard. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          tryptamine, biscobosco, oculus

          kept my head down and told myself to keep on keeping on--had 3 kids, 3, 4,, and 6 years old when divorced.  My youngest contracted Type 1 diabetes when he was 5.  My ex rarely paid any child support; he did every destructive thing he could think of instead.  I worked a couple of jobs, usually--sometimes more when they got older.  I was disabled by RSI from my jobs--tech writing and editing.

          Now, the good part.  I have three absolutely wonderful adult children.  We have lots of memories of good times together, and I managed to find not-fancy homes near the beach that I could almost afford so the ocean could help raise them.  Two put themselves through college, and one is so beautifully self-educated that it stuns me.  You know what?  It was all worth it!

          Try to take care of yourself as best you can, because your health is important to your son.  You'll be tired, but you'll know that you're doing well by your child and that lifts the spirits.  Be well, and notice the good things, and never turn down help.  I'll be thinking about you.

          •  xxxooo - we moms gotta stick together (0+ / 0-)

            :)
            Thanks for your kind words. I just had a fabulous day out in nature with my son in a great community setting.

            By comparison to your story, It sounds like I am on easy street. with only one child, I am sure the economics are easier. My sons father started to have some serious problems when he was 2 - and I had to go to work full-time as the sole support - we broke up whem my son was 3, and a year later, my sons father became seriously ill and disabled.

            Because his father is on disability, I do receive the support for minors, which covers only a small part of our expenses, but hey, its a lot better than nothing!!!  His father is too disabled to do much help, but we have worked things out, and it is a peaceful relationship now.

            I think that one of the hardest things about going through something like that is what I call "the death of the dream" I had a dream of having at least 2 children, being stay at home, or only part-time employed for a number of years, and being able to focus on my children, because I do love children so much. I had to mourn the children I never got to have, and the man who was nothing like what I hoped he would be, etc. there is a meditation teacher I know who calls it "embracing the full catastrope"

            Now I am living a life I never imagined I would, but I am finding much joy and strength that I did not expect.

            With only one child, I am sure my life is much simpler than yours with 3!!!  On the other hand, in a way I envy you... I would have probably had 4 if I could have! But be that as it may, I just wanted to say what an inspiration your words are.

            What I hope for so much is to be able to raise my son well, so he is a fulfilled adult. It sounds like you followed your heart. I hope that I can do as well as it sounds you did....

            blessings 2 you and your kids..

            l'shanah haba'ah bi neworleans

            by biscobosco on Sat Sep 23, 2006 at 06:59:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Women Indy Driver Danica Patrick (6+ / 0-)

    I was so pi**ed about the Danica Patrick dust-up with the guys being so panicked a woman might beat them (a young one at that). However, I didn't realize how much of problem it was made out to be till I looked it up for this post.

    Controversy

    Some racing journalists, IndyCar fans, and other drivers (such as Robby Gordon) have claimed that Patrick's relatively low body weight gives her an advantage in a competition where engine size and car weight are strictly regulated. The IRL president, Brian Barnhart, disagrees, telling Dave Caldwell for The New York Times that Patrick's weight "had a [...] minimal effect on the competition." Patrick's low body weight means that overall, her car has the highest power-to-weight ratio of any car on the track. Competing teams have estimated this advantage at 1 mph. She has argued, in contrast, that if her car truly was 1 mph faster than the others, she would win every race. Critics have replied that her lack of success despite the power-to-weight ratio may be due to her driving skill (or comparative lack of it compared to the very top tier of drivers).

    Gordon's reference was to Indy Racing League regulations where cars are weighed without driver. Some sanctioning bodies, such as NASCAR, have weight rules where cars are weighed without driver and with driver. IndyCar has given no indication that they will start considering the weight of the driver in their race specifications.

    Other fans have claimed Patrick, as a rare female driver, has benefited from discrimination. They claim that most rookie drivers would have faced much tougher racing competition and would have had more difficulty in finding a ride with a top racing team than Patrick did. American drivers in particular have struggled to reach Champ Car and IRL in recent years, with drivers such as Jon Fogarty and Townsend Bell having struggled to earn rides despite strong performances in junior championships.

    Patrick has also had to deal with sexist remarks from fellow racers, who feel that auto racing is a man's sport. In May of 2006, after an appearance on ESPN SportsCenter's Budweiser Hot Seat, Patrick made comments that ruffled the feathers of former NASCAR drivers. When asked if she would ever make the jump over to the NASCAR circuit, Patrick commented that, while she wouldn't make the jump, she hadn't even "gotten a phone call (from NASCAR representatives)." Former driver Richard Petty responded, in a separate interview, by stating, "I just don't think it's a sport for women, and so far, it's proved out. It's really not. It's good for them to come in. It gives us a lot of publicity, it gives them publicity. But as far as being a real true racer, making a living out of it, it's kind of tough."

    When talk heated up of a possible future Patrick move to NASCAR in July 2006, fellow IRL driver Ed Carpenter said, "I think Danica's pretty aggressive in our cars. I mean, you know especially if you catch her at the right time of the month, she might be trading plenty of paint out there." He later said that he meant no disrespect, and that he felt she could hold her own on whatever circuit she was in. He also said it was unlikely she would jump to NASCAR.

    What. . . oh, I've wiped the file? Oh, damn. . . I've wiped ALL the files? . . . I've wiped the internet? Oh no, I don't even have a modem! Eddie Izzard

    by CSI Bentonville on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:04:17 PM PDT

  •  Okay here's my female vs race story (11+ / 0-)

    I was taking my daughter to school one morning. We had to drive through three school zones at 20 mph to get hers (special program or we would have walked). In the first I was being tail-gated by a very angry driver. He finally passed me in the school zone (with several children present) at over 40 mph while looking back to stare at me and flipping me off with my daughter right there.

    Of course, at the red light he was at (having saved all that time in the school zone) when I arrived to turn left he rolled down his window so he could cuss me out. He spit at me, "What's your problem you stupid bitch!" I was pretty riled up but I explained it was a school zone and the speed limit is 20 mph and I was not going to be responsible for running over someone else's child because I don't want mine run over. I relayed I was not impressed with his driving skills, his hand gestures or his verbal abuse in front of my six-year-old daughter. If he didn't like me that was fine but he should at least have respect for children. I did this because I wanted my daughter to see me not put up with it.

    He then admitted he'd just been dropping off his own young daughter and even that he was glad I was looking out for her. How mad would he be with me if I drove like that around his child? I have to give him credit, he did come clean and he did apologize. Rather amazing actually. Not at all what I was expecting. All in the space of a red light.

    I was coming down from the adrenaline in the next mile or two with the whole scene playing over and over and how scary it could have been, when it hit me. He was African American and he had called me a bitch. I would never have thought to call him something by his appearance. Even if I had thought to call him any names let alone the name it crosses the line for me. Why is it okay for him to do it with me. And if he does it then can I? What's the line here?

    That incident has had me miffed for years.

    K. Hafta run. I fear even how this story will be taken. One of those untalkable subjects. I'll be back later to read everyone.

    What. . . oh, I've wiped the file? Oh, damn. . . I've wiped ALL the files? . . . I've wiped the internet? Oh no, I don't even have a modem! Eddie Izzard

    by CSI Bentonville on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 06:14:48 PM PDT

    •  Interestingly.... (6+ / 0-)

      I was thinking about your post, went away to think about it, reloaded.  

      As I was scrolling down I caught my own post where I called the weather service guys who made the decision to name storms after women "bastards".  

      I think I changed my position on this after that <wink>.  Now I'm the offender....

    •  it's all about the anger (5+ / 0-)

      I was once called a "white bitch" by a black girl.

      She was playing scales on the piano in the "common room" at 2 a.m. during Exam Week.  The common room was three doors down from my room. After an hour or so of this, I finally got up and screamed at her to Shut The Fuck Up!

      She screamed back at me: Fuck You, White Bitch!

      I was shocked by the racial term but I let it slide because I could understand her anger.  There were so few black women at our college and they were under huge pressure.

      But I can't see why men should be angry at women.  That really makes no sense to me.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 07:05:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's such a good question! (0+ / 0-)

        Like my husband (not any more) wanting Hillary Clinton dead, like men raping women from anger, etc.  

        I've heard them say that women have advantages, that they're not under the pressure to succeed, etc.  That's just baloney.  If you're not trying to get to the company presidency, you're probably trying desperately to put a meal on the table out of the few dollars you have left after paying for child care.

        THAT is pressure.

    •  A somewhat similar experience but w/o the apology (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tryptamine, CSI Bentonville

      Adult daughter driving my car with me in the front passenger seat.  Parking lot is being resurfaced, so there is a single lane to our destination.  We are in that lane when a guy driving a huge p/u decides to face us down.  My daughter backs up whilst giving the guy the finger.  He proceeds to chase us around the shopping center.  I tell my daughter to just stop in front of the supermarket and I yell at some elderly men sitting on benches to call 911.  They just stare at me.  Very irate, red faced driver of p/u gets out of truck.  He sees me and decides to come to my side of car to deliver his lecture.  The reason he is so angry is that his 7 year old or so daughter saw my daughter displaying her middle finger.  His really threatening driving behavior and absolute loss of control of his temper probably made a much worse impression on his child.

      P.S.  My daughter said he should be in NY!

  •  this song (9+ / 0-)

    truly changed the way i thought about sexism in my society and the world.

    i was in college (graduated 2003) when i first heard it. a friend had put it on a mix tape made for me as a christmas present (gotta love your gender studies friends...) and at first, i hated it.  it made me very uncomfortable. i couldn't belive john lennon was singing this.  using the "n" word.  saying such hateful things. i often fast forwarded throught it.

    but something about the song made me "think about it." it took me a long time to really come to grips about what made me so uncomfortable (the truth?) the line that really got to me was "woman is the slave of the slaves."

    i was a history major, studying african and middle eastern history and really thinking about how many of the racial and ethnic tensions in history rose out of economic disparity.  for example, in south africa, it was typically the well off english speakers who held the most progressive views about race while the most violent acts were generally perpetrated by the poorest afrikaans speakers, sometimes arising over conflicts for land (livleyhood). it seems that people who find themselves at the bottom of a social stratification have a need to feel above somebody. leading me to an almost maxist idea that only economic equality can bring true equality to societies.

    this song made me rethink this w/r/t sexism. because    it seems to me that no matter how low (or high) on the ladder a man is, there "should" always be a woman to prop him up, in either positive ways, such as a home cooked meal and a caring ear, or in negative ways, as a puching bag on which to take out your frustrations. even if economic disparity were to disappear between the sexes, the ingrained expectations will still exist.  

    behind every good man is a great woman.  but still behind....

    •  thanks - best comment on the subject (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CSI Bentonville, elie

      Please listen to more of John Lennon's stuff, especially the "Plastic Ono Band" album, which I put off listening to for many years because I thought it was some lame psychedelic thing with Yoko Ono.

      And then a while after that, I realized that Yoko Ono was transcendentally cool.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:28:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yoko (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oculus, CSI Bentonville

        i have to admit, i know very little about john's post beatle's work. i'd like to learn more, if only there were more time to learn more about everythin i wanted to learn more about...

        anyway, have you ever read BUST magazine? (its kinda a young hipster diy feminist magazine im fond of) years ago, there was an article (written by a man, Larry Marotta) about why yoko ono is a goddess.  they have reprinted it in their book
        i think you might enjoy it.  here's a quote:

        "...Yoko Ono is one of the most reviled figures in our popular lexicon.  She is the supreme temptress: after all, sher broke up the ultimate boys club, the Beatles.  She is the supreme dominatrix: she turned the angry rock-and-roll voice of his generation into an Alan Alda-like, card carrying feminist Mr. Mom.  She is the supreme charlatan: a bizarre, no talent poseur who wreaked her goofy pointless "art" in the wake of a supremely gifted spouse.
          In any event, I', going to be called onto the carpet by many for this act of heresy.  Yoko? A goddess?  It's certainly something I couldn't safely announce to a room of strangers..."

        Its interesting because it ties so neatly into this diary topic.  it has been ok to say the absolute worst things about yoko for nearly  four decades now.  why? because she obviously had "brainwashed" john to give up musical genius.  uh huh, that has to be the way it went down, john couldn't have chosen a partnership in life and art with yoko unless he was contolled by that manipulative bitch....

        •  don't worry about BUST, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elie

          just listen to the music.  Get a copy of "Plastic Ono Band", to start with.  I originally bought the story about "Evil Yoko", etc. but eventually I realized it was wrong.  I'll write more about this on October 9, John's birthday.

          Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

          by hrh on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 09:23:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I don't know if this is the case here: (7+ / 0-)

    I believe - like John Lennon did, and expressed in his song "Woman is the Nigger of the World" - that, for some bizarre twisted reason, demeaning of women is still widely acceptable, even in societies that no longer tolerate the demeaning of minority races.

    It is still widely acceptable in this country to slur Muslims, gays, and immigrants. There are even posters here that do it. I suggest that women have common cause with other such groups here in this country, because women, Muslims, gays, immigrants are all victimized by the right-wing power structure here. All these groups have a common enemy.

    Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that Bush is constantly promoting class warfare between various groups. Xenophobic bigots are always trying to play off immigrants and Blacks, for instance. All of this class warfare detracts from the real problem of Bush siphoning all of our taxpayer dollars and mortgaging our childrens' futures to Big Oil.

  •  This diary series has really gone (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, northsea, CSI Bentonville

    downhill in the last two weeks.  I initially was excited about it, but it is bull to spend the whole time disrespecting each other regardless of feminism or not.  It almost seems like it is used as a chance now to unload a bunch of crap on other people, act ignorant, and then call it feminism.  It isn't like any feminism I've been involved in.  It's bullshit.  Let's hope that the next time it comes around we all listen equally to each other and actually discuss feminism. We might actually change someones mind that way rather than turn them off and against us.

    "The Future's So Bright, I Gotta Wear Shades."--Pat MacDonald

    by hopscotch1997 on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:46:19 PM PDT

    •  Hopscotch, wisdom as always. (0+ / 0-)

      See you later.

    •  This diary series was never intended (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ja of Anoroc

      as a place where feminists would argue with each other and piss on each other.  Nor was it intended as a kind of "promo" for feminism directed at people who weren't already on the same page.  It was intended as a place where we could support each other and get stuff off our chests.  Read the intro.

      But there are certain people who don't want it that way, who want to attack and undermine the very idea of this diary series.  There has never been a forum for feminist discussion, or even women's discussion, here on DKos.  So you can imagine the buttons it pushes with certain people - especially people who think DKos is simply perfect as it is.  I expected flak from the fratboys, yes, but not from other women who are purportedly feminists and women's-studies academics, etc.

      But you know, that's the way it goes.  Whenever someone does something constructive, creative and innovative, there are people around who are eager to try to tear it down and shit on it.

      What I've seen in the past two weeks is a concerted effort by a few people to disrespect the diarist and attack her points of view.  That's not support!  Last week was a disgrace.  "Tsk, tsk!  Be nicer to men!"  What bullshit.

      Maybe it's completely impossible to have a "feminists' circle" series on DKos, considering the audience we have here.  Most of the really vocal, passionate, motivated feminists left after the Pie Wars.  

      But I'm not giving up on the idea.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Sun Sep 24, 2006 at 05:20:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  interesting (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine

    I just stumbled upon this post and the idea of a feminist collective on dailykos. I think that this idea of a feminist discussion can work, but perhaps, following mutual rules of respect are a good idea. From what I learned in my women studies classes, feminism is complicated and tries to mesh a wide range and variety of women from many different backgrounds under one label, with many problems and little success. Keeping this in mind, I think that this discussion will get some women who think that negative comments towards men will not help women progress their causes. On the flip side, some feminists argue that men cannot be partners with women in the cause(s). Just keep in mind, maybe will help this discussion reach a level of collective discourse rather denigration of your fellow sister.
    As to the ally question, I think allies with minorities are to be considered with significant caution. As an Indian American woman, I constantly see my feminist interests clash with my ethnicity's interests. I believe alliances with minorities on certain issues can bode well for women, but exercising caution will ensure that women's voices will not fall by the wayside......Some reflections from a quasi-feminist (still grappling with the label issue) Thanks.

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