Daily Kos

ZOGBY POLL and the "pre-9/11 mentality" meme.

Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 08:50:46 AM PDT

I just participated in the latest Zogby Survey - one of their longer ones.  I was fascinated by a couple of questions.  The first was, "How do you feel about having George W. Bush as your President?"  The options were:

Proud.
Ashamed.
Not sure.

I'm kind of shocked that this question was asked so directly and I'd like to see what the response was, but I haven't been able to find it yet.  Perhaps the result was so profoundly one-sided that they'd prefer not to publish it?

Another question about the future costs of certain items asked which concerned me most.  The list contained the usual - housing, energy/heating fuel, food, clothing and applicances (?), other bills including credit cards.  Notably absent as a choice was "cost of health care."  I sent an email calling them on it.

I also sent an email about a series of questions (buried among the usual ones asking about terrorism, pre-emptive nuking of Iran, etc.) that I found stunningly partisan.  "Do you believe that the federal government has adopted:

a pre-9/11 mentality
a post-9/11 mentality
neither
not sure

The question was repeated, substituting for "the federal government", Republicans, Democrats and "most Americans."

Here are the Zogby results and interpretation as posted on their website:

Survey Finds Troubling News for Bush Critics as Well

Despite the negative news for President Bush in the survey, Democrats come in for criticism as well.  When asked whether the federal government, the American people, and the two major parties had adopted a post-9/11 mentality or were living in a pre-9/11 world, respondents were only more likely to suggest the Democrats had not absorbed the lessons of 9/11, with 44% saying the party was still living in a pre-9/11 world - higher than the 27% who said the Democrats had adopted a post-9/11 mentality.  This also places them well behind the Republican Party and the federal government, which 66% and 61%, respectively, said had adopted a post-9/11 mindset.  Meanwhile, 38% said the American people had adopted a post-9/11 mindset, while 30% said they still have a pre-9/11 outlook.

Here's my emailed comment:

Perhaps because you never defined what "a post-9/11 mentality" and "a pre-9/11 mentality" are, I interpreted both as negatives.  To me, a "post-9/11 mentality" is exemplified by those who are extremely fearful and inclined to believe that only drastic and often immoral, destructive and strategically unsound actions will "save us."  Conversely, a "pre-9/11 mentality" to me is one that refuses to acknowledge that there are problems, and even threats, that must be dealt with realistically, rationally and creatively.  Thus, I believe that the federal government, under control of the Republicans, has definitely adopted a "post-9/11 mentality" whereas a majority of Americans and a majority of Democrats have adopted neither a pre- or post-9/11 mentality.  I believe that most Americans are actually more realistic and much less fearful than either artificially imposed position implies.

Of course, this terminology itself was "invented" by Republicans and the Bush Administration as another way of forcing people into the same false choice - "You're either with us or you're against us."  Their intended implication is, of course, that a "post-9/11 mentality" is "realistic" while a "pre-9/11 mentality" is "pollyanna-ish."  Simply by employing this terminology in your survey questions, you are enabling and propagating a Republican attempt to define the terms of the question.

By the way, I truly consider myself to be independent politically (please note the lowercase "i") and a moderate - or what once would have been considered a "moderate."   As Republicans and the Bush Administration continue to successfully define the terms of issues, I find that my political, social and economic positions, though they haven't changed very much, have come to be more-or-less "officially" classified as "Liberal/Progressive" or even "Leftist" with an extremely perjorative connotation.  I find this very disturbing, and certainly no less so when your survey questions appear to further this trend.

This situation reminds me of the aprocryphal tale of an American in Beirut during the Lebanese civil war. The fellow was grabbed off the street by masked gunmen who demanded to know if he was a Christian or a Muslim.  "I'm a Tourist!" he cried.  And they let him go.

The point here is not that I'm surprised that Zogby isn't balanced, but that it's become even more clear to me that we need, ASAP, to kill this "9/11 mentality" meme, which will surely be used by Rove and Co. during the 2006 mid-terms to define the debate, by answering that we have adopted neither of their artifically limited alternatives and by defining a succinct and memorable alternative.

Suggestions?

Tags: zogby, 9-11, Republicans, meme (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 39 comments

  •  POST 9/11 mentality (2.50 / 2)

    if the gop has a post 9/11 mentality it sure looks like their pre 9/11 mentality

    the gop's mentality is that its OK to LIE to Americans as long as it furthers your mission because the ends always justify the means when you speak for god.

    OIL UBER ALLES says "MORE WARS" McCain

    by KnotIookin on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 08:53:59 AM PDT

  •  best question (none / 1)

    Which would you prefer to watch?
    "West Wing"
    "Commander-in-chief"
    State of the Union Live
    "The Simpsons"

    God I was torn!  Watch an idiot tell lies or watch a cartoon making fun of him!

    It was a good poll and I was a little confused on the pre- and post-9/11 mentality questions too.

    •  And you chose....? (none / 0)

      I wanted to go with The Simpsons myself, but I'm more likely to finish reading the series of pieces in the current Atlantic about the "culture wars."  One interesting take is that the country is divided between the 30% or so who want a culture war and the 70% who'd really rather not.

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:04:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I wonder.... (4.00 / 2)

    ....if the reps paid for that question so the story would write itself with the results.

    Your email re; Pre and post was great.

  •  I filled out the survey as well (4.00 / 2)

    and had similar problems with it, particularly the post and pre 9/11 stuff.  Personally, I think that Bush has had the same mentality before 9/11 and that 9/11 was only an excuse for him to more boldly enact his insane agenda.  To Busy, 9/11 was mana from heaven.

    White woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (Endorsed 6/07)

    by nolalily on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 08:58:51 AM PDT

  •  as a Zogby lab rat myself ... (4.00 / 3)

    I was surprised to see that one as well, good moderate swing-state Democratic NASCAR fan that I am.  But not so much that I chewed them out for it ... ended up putting NEITHER for all of them as I couldn't seem to find a radio button marked "What the Cheney does this mean?"

    My inclination, the more I hear confusion between the occupation of Iraq and the so-called War on Terra, is to pre-emptively strike against another outbreak of the "9/11 mentality" crap by pointing out that if ever there was a time for a "war on terror", the time to fight it was in the summer of 2001.

    That was Bush's chance, and he blew it.  Period.  White flag.  Not up to the task.  Etc.

    Further proof?  The attempt to re-cast spying on your own people as trying to fight terrorism.  The task of keeping the country safe while protecting the civil liberties and privacy of its people is the President's job, and Bush can't hack it.

    But I digress.  Isn't this more or less the same tactic Republicans used for several decades after the Civil War?  Waving the bloody shirt, they called it.  So if anyone accuses you of having a "pre-9/11 mentality", you might well ask them when they're going to get over their pre-1900 mentality.

    "Do not offend the Chair Leg of Truth! It is wise and terrible."

    by section29 on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:03:58 AM PDT

  •  Lord (none / 1)

    we talked about this last ride before the Apocalypse but if you don't mind I'd rather do it when it's not raining out.  Perhaps tomorrow.
  •  Ditto, and then some... (4.00 / 2)

    I also took that Zogby poll and had pretty much the same interpretation you did of the "pre/post 9/11" questions.   I had not heard the Repugs using that phrase yet so I was not aware I was being asked a loaded question.  

    Another thing that irritated me about this particular survey was that Zogby committed a polling error that any decent polling organization knows to avoid:  asking two things in one question.   There were a series of questions that put forth hypothetical sentiments about the Iraq War and you had to choose how strongly you agreed with that sentiment.  The problem was, most of the sentiments were expressed as compound clauses.   I found myself "strongly agreeing" with one clause, but "strongly disagreeing" with the other clause.  So I had to mark the "Not sure" answer on just about all of those questions.

    Zogby needs a refresher course in how to structure a survey question.

    •  I always get the feeling... (4.00 / 2)

      ..that what they THINK I'm saying in response to a question is not what I'm ACTUALLY saying.  Polls don't do the nuance thing very well, and the problem is exacerbated when the question is so complex that the answers could mean anything at all.
    •  I especially disliked the one (none / 1)

      that began, "I started out supporting the war, but now ...."  There was no accurate way to answer that one with the choices they offered.

      As far as them taking a refresher course about how to ask proper questions, I think these guys know EXACTLY what they're doing with these.

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:21:45 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Don't they do that on purpose? (4.00 / 2)

      Obfuscate.

      That type of questionn leaves it open to interpretation I mean. Theirs.

      IT TOOK five years, the deaths of 4,100 US soldiers... to make Iraq safe for Exxon. ~ Derrick Z. Jackson

      by Gorette on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:31:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Zogby (4.00 / 2)

    I am one of their people as well. Usually on the phone the questions make more sense. I like to think Zogby is unbiased. Gallup on the other hand is so far up Bush's ass...Anyway, I thought the pre-post 9/11 questions were interesting. I thought they were trying to use that information to make sense or frame other information. Let's face it. If Bush had been minding the borders like Clinton, 9/11 might never have happened. That would have been a good question.
    •  I guess they're only as biased (none / 1)

      as whoever pays to have certain questions asked.

      BTW - I'd LOOOVE to get a call from a phone pollster who'd allow me to answer in full (or, at least, offer my own alternative answer).

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:28:14 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sometimes there is a chance to answer (none / 0)

        One question was about the most important speech a pres could make such as SOTU or at a funeral or at the swearing in.

        I checked other and typed in...a resigning speech.

        What bothered me the most were the questions about nukes.  If nuclear weapons were used on the US by Iran should we nuke them back.

        I should have written down my answers.  I think I hit "neither" on the 9/11 because I didn't get it.  I can't remember, now.  

        Join us at Bookflurries: Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

        by cfk on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 06:21:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  What a bullshit question... (4.00 / 3)

    You got it right in your email -- this question is totally ambiguous an unworthy of polling.  I would view a "post-9/11 mentality" as a mindset that allows you to be sold a pack of lies by a corrupt administration bent on expanding its power and undermining the civil liberties of all Americans.  I'll bet if they phrased it that way they'd get a fairly one-sided response.

    I'm fairly sick in general of polls that leave me wishing fervently for another option, and the feeling that whichever option I choose will be misunderstood, misrepresented and misreported.

  •  screw pre-9/11 or post-9/11 (4.00 / 2)

    I'm more concerned about Bush having a pre-FDR mentality.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:24:16 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for the diary (4.00 / 2)

    and your work with Zogby.

    I heard Senator Feingold field this question perfectly this morning on the Rachel Maddow show, saying that Democrats live in the "Post-1776 world" where we believe in the Constitution all all the rights inherent in it.

    It is going to take a long time to swing the debate away from the Bush Administration failure (9/11) (that's right, failure -- it was on their watch, and Osama Bin Forgotten still walks and their decision to go into Iraq was exactly the WRONG post-9/11 decision).  I think Senator Feingold has a good frame going.

    The only force that can overcome an idea and a faith is another and better idea and faith, positively and fearlessly upheld. Dorothy Thompson.

    by Intellectually Curious on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:25:20 AM PDT

    •  Hadn't heard Feingold's comeback. (none / 0)

      Sweet!

      So - now you have me wondering if this was a push-poll by Republicans or just testing the meme to see how it plays.  As damning of the Dems as Zogby's interpretation of the results was, maybe it wasn't as good as what Rove was looking for.  And, as Feingold demonstrated, it provides a valuable opportunity to create a clever backfire.

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:33:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for posting that great (none / 1)

      comment by Feingold. What a wonderful, refreshing way to put it. We need to do that kind of thing more. It kind of takes you by surprise and makes you think.

      It's so interesting the way polls can be written to tell you what you want to hear. Does anyone know which are the best written or most reliable polls---those trying to get at truth? I assume there might be one?

      IT TOOK five years, the deaths of 4,100 US soldiers... to make Iraq safe for Exxon. ~ Derrick Z. Jackson

      by Gorette on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:38:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I participated also. (none / 0)

    I to participated in the poll and was somewhat confused by the framing of some questions especially the "pre/post 9/11" questions. I answered Post 9/11 on all of them.

    But this question....

    Which would you prefer to watch?
    "West Wing"
    "Commander-in-chief"
    State of the Union Live
    "The Simpsons"

    I answered "not sure" because there wasn't a "go pick up dog poop in the yard" choice.

    "Mankind shall not be free until the last king is strangled in the entrails of the last priest." -- Denis Diderot,

    by KozmoD on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:32:01 AM PDT

  •  News Flash to Republicans (4.00 / 2)

    The Twin Towers were attacked eight years before 9/11. Al Qaeda has existed since the Republicans trained and funded them in the 80's. Nothing changed on 9/11.


    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." - Salvor Hardin

    by Zackpunk on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:34:58 AM PDT

  •  It's all about framing (none / 0)

    pre-9/11 mindset - Gary Cooper-cool, calm, and collected

    post-9/11 mindset - I'd like to say "tharn" but that would be an insult to bunnies

  •  Good diary! Your email (4.00 / 2)

    is excellent. It would be a worthy endeavor to have more people spending time trying to get polling orgs to do a better job of writing more straightforward questions, ones not so open to interpretation or misuse. They use it as an art and it should be a science, right?

    Do you think, however, that they are subject to pressure from people as compared to those who pay for the polls? I guess if the public realized these things it might help, but I wonder. I know when I heard about repug ties to Gallup a while back it certainly made me disregard those polls, so that might help.

    IT TOOK five years, the deaths of 4,100 US soldiers... to make Iraq safe for Exxon. ~ Derrick Z. Jackson

    by Gorette on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:44:09 AM PDT

    •  I think that there's a structure (none / 0)

      within which they insert specifically-framed questions that they're paid to ask and one poll may contain questions from more than one client - possibly even clients that are from opposite ends of the political spectrum.  Certainly some questions are more direct and others are obviously designed to be "gotchas."  I'm guessing that the order in which the questions are asked is also paid for with a question asked one way early on and a follow-up asked a different way much later - sorta like the "raw carrots" test.

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 09:54:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  And now for something completely different (none / 0)

    I have to laugh.  After posting my earlier comment, I went back into my e-mail and found another Zogby poll waiting for me.   Most of the questions dealt with...the Mall of America.

    In comparison to most of Zogby's surveys, this one was pretty boring!

  •  My daughter took that poll . . . (none / 0)

    and told me about the "mentality" questions. We were both agog at their meaninglessness.

    I shall not grow conservative with age -- Elizabeth Cady Stanton

    by ponderer on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 10:29:16 AM PDT

  •  What a lot of Zogbians! (none / 1)

    I didn't realize so many others of you were also killing time at work on the Zogby polls. This one was one of the more aggravating, as noted by posts above - undefined terms (pre and post 9/11? I'm definitely living with my post-9/11 mentality, but that would be mind-numbing rage at the profiteers and kleptocrats who have looted my country and left it in the ditch while doing less than nothing to ensure our collective safety. Is that what they meant?), facetious questions (actually I'd rather watch the episode of the Simpsons where Montgomery Burn's fat, greasy old college roommate Dack Chainey chokes to death on an overlarge roll of bloodsoaked thousand-dollar bills while tripping over a stray corpse that fell from an overloaded cargo plane on its way back from the Fight For Freedom, but it hasn't been drawn yet...) and multiple choices that I could only answer in essay form (usually starting with "yes, but..").

    I was, however proud to check "ashamed". Nice, concise question, easy answer.

    •  On Katrina vs. 9/11 (none / 0)

      I answered that Katrina had a more direct and significant impact on my life that the 9/11 attacks.  And then I emailed them to say,

      However, the Bush Administration's incompetent and for-political-gain response to 9/11 has had a much more devastating impact on my life than either of the two events themselves.

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:02:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I answered Katrina, also (none / 0)

        Of course the impact of 9/11 is huge with me, but what I saw happen after Katrina and Rita made me realize what can really happen in an emergency in this country.  Frightening.

        Join us at Bookflurries: Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST

        by cfk on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 06:25:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  i took the test and told them i was ashamed. (none / 0)

  •  excuse me, this 9/11 stuff is gettting old. (none / 0)

    but hey that's me. after being bombarded with it night and day for years now, i am ready to move on down the road. you don't forget and you make sure as best you can, it doesn't happen again. but hell, i am sick of seeing it used. i am sick of seeing people thinking that somehow we are so freaking special. yeah, we were attacked. and so has the rest of world sometimes on a daily basis. 3000? the iraqis would say we are doing pretty good. i don't put down 9/11 in itself. i put down the way it is being used and the over reaction of people who wring their hands and still whimper.
    •  Yeah, we took a punch. (none / 0)

      But we got back up.  That's one thing a lot of folks don't seem to realize is that we, as a country, DID get back up.  And that would've been a lot more clear if Bush and Cheney hadn't gotten in the way and kept telling everyone how we need to be afraid because the "next attack could be devastating."

      Well, holy shit!  Katrina and pals were a lot more devastating than anything OBL could do to us in his wildest imaginings.  And, y'know what?  We'll get back up from that punch, too.  Again, it'll be a lot easier with someone besides Bush and his cronies in charge.

      Of course it's likely that al-Qaeda will hit us again.  If Americans are allowed to be the courageous people we used to be (before Bush), we'll get back up from that, too.

      When are folks going to realize that these guys, with all their fear-mongering, are the real wussies?!

      Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.

      by sxwarren on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 02:36:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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