BSA Inc. - Boy Scouts a Corporate Fraud

OK.....snicker a bit.... Boy Scouts is a bit geeky and old fashioned BUT the intents were good.  I had a good experience as a kid and ao ahve millions of others  BUT there's been a real change in BSA over the past 20 years.  A good organization has been co-opted by a cadre of good old boys who are looting it for all its worth while hiding their failures behind rhetoric.  They use political ties to get favorable treatment and directed funding that no other non-profit receives.  They're hiding behind BSA's "Norman Rockwell" image and looting it for all its worth. Any questioning is an attack on their "values" - sound familiar?

Thre are great and dedicated volunteers in Boy Scout. Some of the best people you could meet.  But many are walking away, fed up with the organization they belong to.  BSA Inc. doesn't care about boys.  It cares only about money and numbers. A few Executives are doing very well at the expense of others.  

I'm prompted to write this reading how a Congressmen is donating Abramoff funds to Boy Scouts. They don't deserve them. much more....

The irony is that those trying to vainly defend a guy like DeLay by saying he's really a Boy Scout may be unwittingly dead on the money - literally.

The real story on BSA, Inc. is pretty disillusioning

A respected organization for youth has been "co-opted" at the upper levels - it's one more corporate scandal a la Enron.  The executives running the company are grabbing all they can while the organization fails.  They fake results and sell off assets, punish whistleblowers.  The organization fails but they grow fat and comfortable.  

The head of BSA is one of the highest compensated non-profit CEO's in the country - detailed below.  The Board of Directors - as usual - is clueless and fails to oversee things.  But then BSA isn't getting the same caliber Board Member they used to get. The "gay and athiest" stance hurt but then BSA couldn't sfford the membership loss they would have incurred by angering a few large conservative groups.  It would've made things look even worse.  But then when you try to appease one small faction, you lose any wider appeal you once had.  Sound familiar?

Rolling Stone had a great article in 2000 on the dichotomy within BSA - the divisions between the volunteers that TRY to run a real Scouting program and the paid professionals running Boy Scouts.  But it's a story nobody wants to touch - Boy Scouts are like Mom and Apple pie.  A few papers picked up on this all during last year's scandals but - as always - the larger issue was dropped.  You can't question Boy Scouts.  A recurring pattern of illegal actions and misrepresenttion is always the work of "an individual" - who made the mistake of getting caught.

Even the child abuse scandal a while back - as bad as the Catholic Church but stonewalled far better - died off since nobody wants to believe their kid can get abused in Scouts.  This is mentioned later.

Boy Scouts is chartered by the US Congress - giving it a monoploy of sorts.  They enforce it vigorously - not even wanting Girl Scouts to use the "Scout" name.  But then if they HAD competition, I expect BSA Inc. would have died a while ago.  people stay becaust they DON'T have an alternative organization that's close to "Scouting."

The paid executives running BSA have made a mess of things. Boy Scouts is losing members because its lost its soul.  There's more at work here than changing times and competition from other activities.  Membership continues to decline.  In reality there are probably half the number of kids ACTIVE in Scouting out of what BSA claims.

Compare annual reports of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.  GSA is clear and lists statistics and financials clearly.  Not so Boy Scouts.  They talk about "success" but show little in the way of specifics.  There's lots of rhetoric and little reality.

BSA paid staff have become more and more autocratic and focused  on "statistics" to show "Success" - numbers and money - they don't seem to care much about boys or Scouting. SIgn up all the kids you can - BSA doesn't care if you never see them after the first meeting.  "Numbers" are all that count.

Narrowing Membership

Boy Scouts is no longer the all inclusive group it once was - though it never was well represented in minority groups. Funny how BSA leterature shows a wide range of faces and colors - far wider than you're likely to see at a Scouting event.  They're better at PR now.  Reality is different.  Still, Scouts used to be the ONE organization that in most schools had a full range of kids - the smart ones, the jocks, the skaters, even a few heads..... all were welcome.  

BSA is becoming more and more "conservative" and pushing out the more "liberal" in its ranks.  It is drawing more and more "extreme" members as a result - people willing to "take orders" and do as they're told. There's a defensive mentality where it's the BSA way or you're an "enemy" and treated as such - sound familiar?  

Certain churches like the Unitarians have fallen out of favor with BSA - while other denominations have deliberately cut their ties.  You won't find a Reform Jewish sponsored unit here anymore.  The "gay and athiest" stand is part of it but it goes deeper.  The "character" of the organization has changed.  The lack of toleration for any dissent is clear in various forums used by Scout volunteers to discuss issues of concern.  

Punishing Whistleblowers and Dissidents

These issues are NOT visible to most volunteers in Scouting.  Most of the adults that help out in Cub Scouts never see ANYTHING beyond their local Pack.  Even those involved in Boy Scouting don't have much contact with "Council" or above.  BSA likes it that way.  

They don't want informed and involved volunteers.  They want compliant fund-raisers.  Perhaps one in ten volunteers have any real contact with Scout personnel outside their own unit or other volunteers.  But thse at the core of Scouting are seeing major changes. Those in Scouting as boys have seen the camps and facilities they knew sold off - hurting thier program.  They get little support from paid staff but endless pressure to raise money.

The volunteers that ask questions quickly find themselves labeled "troublemakers."  Why was that camp sold for half the estimate to a neighbor of the Scout Executive?  If numbers are going up shouldn't we be ADDING facilities?  What ARE the real membership numbers?    They don't like questions.  And when you stand up and say "this is wrong" - watch out.  If you think it's wrong to sell off the summer camp you spent so much time at, be careful what you say.  If you notice that they're still counting units that died a few years ago on their rosters, or you have kids listed in your unit that you've never seen, best be quiet.  That "trustworthy and honest" thing - it's all image.

Volunteers upset with what they see and trying to change things are told to shut up and threatened.  Many are leaving.  Many remain focused only locally - they help theirTroop and try to pretend all is well and good.  Funny how there are so many Eagle Scouts now - even though total numbers in Boy Scouts have declined so much.  Yeah, it looks good for college and some troops ARE "Eagle Mills."  But who cares?  Not BSA.  

Paid staff have actually thrown volunteers out of BSA for raising questions about enrollment fraud and finances.  One long serving Scoutmaster was thrown out for asking why his small council was spending $500,000 on unneeded new offices instead of on boys.

http://www.auburnpub.com/...

This case is NOT unique.  Procedures drawn up to deal with pedophiles and felons are misused to remove dedicated volunteers.  Lots of luch appealing your removal.  BSA could care less.  GO ahead take them to court.  So far nobody has had the time or tens of thousands of dollars to waste (though that may be changing).  

Property Sales

Camps for boys are sold off to fund excessive salaries and meet financial goals. Lots of money is parked in "endowment funds" - BSA National is sitting on $500 million in liquid assets. There's more in local Council accounts, not to mention all the property BSA still owns.  Funny how when property donated to Boy Scouts is no longer used, it isn't returned to the donor as originally specified in bequests.  Some way is found to sell it off and keep the proceeds.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/...  volunteers here have protested this sale and fought it in the courts.  The original will specified that the proceeds be used to purchase a REPLACEMENT facility.  The donor's name is being stuck on an EXISTING facility instead.  The Coulcil is losing facilities, NOT adding to them as the donor wished.

http://www.sptimes.com/...

http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/...

http://www.mysummercamps.com/... - volunteers here have voted AGAINST this sale and have fought to replace their Council leadership finally taking the fight to court.

On Paid Staff

There is an unending push for volunteers to sign up more boys and raise money - yet little direct support is provided by paid staff for the Scouting Program volunteers are trying to run.  Baden Powell expressed strong reservations about having ANY paid staff in Scouting.  It seems his worries were correct.  Whistleblowers are punished.  Anyone - paid or volunteer - that points out fraudulent claims or fights against unnecessary sales of property will be punished.  All so a few executives can live the good life.  

Compensation

Low level employees of BSA are ill paid and overworked BUT local "Scout Executives" are well compensated  (far more that Girl Scout counterparts even when overseeing less kids) and BSA National is packed with highly paid staffers whose function remains mysteriously unknown and unexplained.

Roy Williams - the head of BSA had a total compensation package of over $900,000 in 2003. From 990 filings in Guidestar. Half of this was deferred compenstion not shown on one 990 filing but revealed on another.  The issue of excessive CEO compensation has been raised in the no-profit world.  Williams has one of the highest compensation packages in the non-profit sector.  Yet membership in Scouting has been declining under William's leadership.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/...

Local Council Scout Executives are VERY well paid compared to other comparable non-profit positions.

Enrollment Fraud

Executives are overpaid yet failing at their jobs.  Membership has been declining for years - and misrepresented widely - indeed fraudulently. Membership fraud (misstating the number of boys enrolled) has been a long term and worsening problem in BSA - tolerated as long as you're not caught.   Even the way members are counted deliberately overstates counts - focused on a calendar year and not school year schedule.  "Year end" numbers are 15-20% higher than actual active membership at any point in a year.  Keep inmind that membership numbers are touted in fund-raising efforts.  Using inflated numbers to raise money is fraud.  There have been a number of investigations over the years in various places on this issue - but all seem to "disappear" over time.  BSA does NOT allow independent outside audits of its membership claims.  Even when conducting its own, there are often 30% "discrepancies" - as shown later.

Desperate to show improvement in membership numbers and facing pressure from "National", local Councils have been fraudulently boosting their claimed membership counts - and using those counts to solicit charitable funding.  The Scout Executive in Greater Alabama - Ronnie Holmes was caught inflating numbers there after being caught doing the same in 2000 in Dallas.  He remains in HIS position - paid well over $200,000 a year in an area where median salaries are under $40,000.  The whistle-blower whose claims of overstatement were proven in an audit was thrown out of Scoutig the day his claims were proven true.  He has taken BSA to court.  BSA tried to claim that the numerous "John Smiths" living at the same address as the new multi-million dollar Council Headquarters were so listed to protect their privacy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/...

Other Councils involved in membership scandals are in Florida

http://www.abcactionnews.com/...

http://www.abcactionnews.com/...

and Atlanta where a program for "Disadvantaged Youth" was shown to be a sham. Just over 3000 active members were found - instead of the variously claimed 21,000, 15,000 or 10,000.  Some still believe the real count is less than 1000.  The Scout Executive there quit when the issue became public.  Lower level Scout Leaders there are trying to resolve the issue though the Cuncil leadership has been less than open about the issue.  Of note, new multi-million dollar Council offices were just built in Atlanta - by a contractor on the local Board.

http://www.ajc.com/...

http://www.boyscoutsfortruth.com/...

Low level paid staffers face huge pressure to increase membership numbers

http://roguepundit.typepad.com/...

Contrived Politically Funded Programs

BSA hypcritically uses a program called "Learning for Life" to collect funds it CANNOT receive because of its discriminatory stance towards gays and athiests.  This program receives government grants to fund this program which has BSA employees running programs in schools for children.  Often this is just a simple crafts program for special needs kids.  HOWEVER, it is NOT Scouting.  It is nothing like Scouting.  This program is a pokitically contrived one, filling a "need" that would not exist if directed funding was not provided for it.  There are more kids in this program than in Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts.  It is the ONLY area BSA can claim "growth."  Frankly, it is just like any other failing company that runs to government and uses government funding to bail it out.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/...

A "Democracy? - Who runs Boy Scouts?

In theory BSA s run by its volunteers but in truth they have no real say.  The paid staff that is supposed to SERVE and SUPPORT the volunteers in Scouting in effect dictate to the volunteers.

Volunteers do the yeoman work in Scouting.  They run Troops and Packs, they run events.  They run training for new leaders.  They fill most positions in a Council and fill many posts in camps.  There's a recurring saying that the ONLY time you see a paid staffer is when they show up to ask for money.  And in truth, that reflects an endless circle.  Paid staff focus much of their time on raising money to pay THEIR salaries, NOT to support Scouting.  In a typical Council,  "camping and activity" fees cover the "camping and activity" costs.  An analysis of Council 990's shows that salaries are the largest expense for most.

BSA is structured as a series of "independent franchises" - local corporations that oversee BSA ina geographic area.  They are all tied to BSA National in Irving Texas.  In theory, all local Councils are overseen by an Executive Board by "representatives" of the local volunteers.  In truth, the "representatives" and Board candidates are hand picked - the "election" is like Communist Bulgaria - vote yes or no for the hand-picked slate.  In reality, the paid Scout Executive who is supposed to be an employee of the volnteers acts as he wants.  In Chicago Area Council, volunteers voted the candidates down TWICE and had to take their own Council to court to get "elections" that gave them real input and control.  Volunteers have attempted to have a direct say in some councils - they are rarely successful in this contrived system.  BSA does NOT allow its volunteers a direct ans real say in how things are run - despite claims of being a "representtive democracy."    The structure is complex and deliberately obscure but it allows a few groups chartering units (sponsoring Troops) to have a disproportionate influence.  LDS (the Mormon Church) has had an increasingly large presence in BSA even as other churches withdraw their support over "discrimination" and other issues.  

Protecting Boys

Interestingly, the Mormon Church uses BSA as their "official" youth program for boys.  Yet the leaders there often do not receive the same training as other BSA leaders.  This issue has been raised in Scouting circles - as many of the "accidents" that have led to injury and death occur in LDS units.

http://www.scouter.com/...

http://www.mercurynews.com/...

The National Jamboree Disaster

This was NOT fully covered by the media and well spun by BSA with tons of "Local Scout has great time at Jamboree."  BUT the truth is that this was a mess and never should have happened.  The blame goes to BSA and the White House.

 http://www.fredericksburg.com/...

http://www.scouter.com/...

some senior Scouters have screamed about this mess within BSA circles but it seems like no changes resulted, nobody was held responsible.

Child abuse cover-ups

A topic NOBODY wants to talk about and one that terrifies Scout volunteers.  A problem kid knows he can screw an adult by flasely accusing an adult.  At the same time there are too many real cases in BSA.  Boy Scouts had made some effort to deal with this but has been less than successful in doing so.  They have "procedures" and "policies" but it still happens.

It took BSA TOO long to address this issue.  BSA failed to report THOUSANDS of abuse cases in the 1980's and 1990's - detailed in Patrick Boyle's 1994 book "Scout's Honor."  It's a drity little secret BSA doesn't want to talk about.  Changes were made and "youth protection" guidelines adopted but the issue remains.  Since BSA does NOT release statistics on this a real analysis is not possible but a Google of "Boy Scout abuse" returns far more hits than "Boys and Girls Clubs abuse" or any other youth group. Court cases are invariably sealed and BSA has been helped by law enforcement authorities not wanting to "slur" Scouting by bentioning such affiliations in abuse cases.  There are more than enough cases where the abuser is thrown out of Scoting when caught but other cases are NOT handled correctly.

A scandal in Grand Teton Council in Idaho shows just how this occurs and how BSA STILL ignores and hides such scandals.  The "Scout Executive" (CEO of the local corporate presence of BSA there) remains in a job that pays 2 -3 time sthe local median salary DESPITE failing to report two separate incidents of abuse to authorities. The statute of limitations had conveniently expired when the issue was investigated.

The Post-Register in Idaho Falls did a long series on this but it's now behind a paid subscriber wall.  One of the abusers was re-arrested after violating parole. He remained employed as a camp counselor despite numerous reports that he had abused boys.  Years passed and abuse continued even though ths was reported to BSA regional and National.  The "good guys" in Scouting that finally did the right thing are all out of BSA.  The ones that covered it all up remain employed and many were promoted (as detailed in the Post-Register series "Scout's Honor."  The paper caught hell for breaking the story from local powers and the reporter who broke the story outed as being gay (not a good thing in Idaho) - he gave up and quit. There are still cases in court - a long and questionable history of sealed cases and parents not told about abuse seems to be continuing.

The following statement somehow mysteriously disappeared off the Council website when it came out that BSA had utterly failed to deal with the problem and ignored reports at ALL Levels local through National  - this came out ONLY when sealed court case papers were opened.  It remains buried on their site but is not linked anywhere.  I expect it will disappear shortly after someone finally notices.

http://www.grandtetoncouncil.org/...

It turns out that at least 4 pedophiles had been active in this Council over the past 20 years.  

http://www.kpvi.com/...

The West Scandal in Spokane brought up theis issue perpherally

http://www.columbiatribune.com/...

There are far more cases than could be listed here.

Even when the executive in BSA National responsible for "Youth Protection" was arrested for distributing child porn, BSA stonewalled behind a legally contrived statement.  They - as always - refused to answer any questions.  This is the same strategy they took with 60 minutes and all others during the national abuse scandal.  They actually let Sovreign Smith retire (with benefits).  BSA was less than honest about his contact with boys and somehow overlooked that he had taken an annual week long sailing  trip out of the Miami High Adventure Sea base with one other adult and a half dozen boys. (the story reporting that is no longer on the web and the person in BSA reporting THAT was fired from BSA).

http://www.cnn.com/...

http://www.ice.gov/...

 Ironically, Smith - guilty of distributing child porn - had FIRED a well respected paid professional with decades of service when it was reported that person had gone to a gay resort.  Smith was an ardent defender of BSA's anti-gay policies (a statement by him was hurriedly removed from BSA's web site after his arrest).  
http://www.motherjones.com/...

BSA has made efforts to deal with this issue.  There are guidelines and training but the problem continues to arise because, frankly, there are not enough parents that WANT to go hiking and camping.  Too many are willing to trust others with their kids and happy to let some "outsider" run a Troop fpr them.  This has been the issue with a number of abuse cases.  BSA goes to great lengths to confuse and distory the whole pedophile/homosexual issue.  BSA CLAIMS to "protect" boys by keeping out avowed homosexuals but seems to have regular issues with pedophiles.

In the larger focus of things, this is one few notice but it is typical of the ethical and moral failures run rampant now.  People espouse "Character" and values while behaving abysmally.  They use well intentioned underlings for their own purposes.  

It'd be disappointing enough for any group but this is an ogranization that so blatantly wraps itself in the flag and proclaims "American values" and touts "character".  But I suppose the same can be said of so many so-called churches as well.  Too bad.  I though Boy Scouts really did mean something.  It does but not what you think.

I realize this is a narrow-interest area but this forum gives it some visibility.

Truth is that BSA gets slammed over "membership criteria" but the Senate STILL votes it special treatment and legal exemptions while NEVER looking behind the facade. BSA Inc. has one sweet racket going.

And instead of fighting to change BSA and keep it what it was, the "liberals" and "Progressives" in BSA shut up or walked away and conceeded the ground to a bunch of posturing hypocrites.

If you know of anything more, add it below.  If nothing else, it adds to the public record and sheds a bit more light on it all.

•  I was

  a Boy Scout.  It did wonders for me but like many USEFUL American institutions this one has come,I I think under deliberate attack.  Ya, I know, tin foil hat time, by the NWO.

  by Lasthorseman on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:16:56 PM PDT

  •  It only stays USEFUL

    if it remains what it was and is supposed to be.

    BSA isn't going to do much good as a small LDS youth organization..... with a bunch of retired execs collecting hefty pensions funded by all those assets sold off because they "weren't being used"

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:19:59 PM PDT

•  I was a member of a country club in

  Plano for several years, until I moved to another part of Texas.  It was a very expensive club -- Troy Aikman is a member, his house backs up to one of the finishing holes.  Deion Sanders, Lanny Wadkins, Randy White and some other notables were members.  So were some bigwigs from the Boy Scouts.  

  One day I was walking with a friend into the parking lot; we had just finished a round.  A man drove up in an expensive new car and greeted my friend.  They talked for few moments and my friend commented on his new car.  The man said that it was a retirement gift from the Boy Scouts board.  Nice.
  

  by hestal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:22:44 PM PDT

•  Two related items.

  1.  You're right about the lack of diversity and right-wing flavor.  If my son hadn't asked to be a cub scout, I wouldn't go anwhere near them.  I volunteered to be a den leader to try to bring some real outdoor training, as opposed to flag waving and park parties.  Now my coucil is having a mini version of the "purge the dissenting volunteers" problem you describe.

  2.  My RW brother in law is a paid boy scout fund raiser.  He spends all his time schmoozing local celebrities for cash.  Yet the packs have to raise their own operating funds and pay dues to the council.  The only conversation my BIL is good for is a litany of what celebritiy parties he has attended.  He's like The Devil Wears Prada in reverse.

  by Nineteen Kilo on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:27:30 PM PDT

  •  Cub Scouts

    My son likes it, so we go most weeks.  But he will get no encouragement from me to continue and the minute he gets a little bored... I will find something to replace it.

    I am an eagle but I certainly would not put it on a resume.  I had some good times, but mostly it was creepy.  And now that it has descended further into hell, I am REALLY done with it.

    by WI Deadhead on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 09:17:52 PM PDT

•  aoeu

  I'm an Eagle Scout, but I'm also gay so they don't want me.  Shrug, their lose.

  by TealVeal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:27:33 PM PDT

  •  Many think the whole gay issue

    was a diversion from the pedophile one - along with kow-towwing to the LDS and other conservatives.  This was a top dpwn edict NOT a reflection of any wiode discussion among members.

    But you can't even raise the issue for discussion in BSA or you're thrown out.  Dave Rice - with 79 years in was thrown out over the opposition of even his local COuncil leadership for simply preaching TOLERANCE in his local church on the issue - a non BSA venue.  

    Some of the heterosexual leaders exhibit rather appalling behavior ethically and morally - it's something of a joke.  

    Can't even express my own opinion on the membership issue or I give them a reason to throw me out though I'm sure they'd try if they could readily identify the author of this post.  Williams will probably call a buddy in the NSA.

    But I doubt they even know the WWW exists - they don't realize that all the Rebel Scum volunteers in BSA are comparing notes and sharing strategy.....  what we all thought were "local" problems are endemic.  Not all Councils are rotten - maybe 1/4 -1/5 are really a mess but the fish rots from the head down.  

    Have some VERY informative communications with insiders which will eventually get used.....

    One media outlet was hot on this but it seemed to die.....typical.  BSA has "friends" - and as noted, criticizing BSA is like attacking Mom and Apple Pie.

    Chicago was one battle won by volunteers.  Alabama ought to be interesting and there ae a few more coming up.....

    Pure corporate fraud has already hit the fan.

    Political fraud is hitting now.

    Non-profit fraud had better watch out.......

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:24:24 PM PDT

    •  aoeu

      how is NCAC?

      by TealVeal on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:57:27 PM PDT

      •  Can't say.

        Post inquiries on Scouter.com forums or similar venues.  

        Watch out for the paid professionals from deep south.....Texas, Alabama, Georgia and Florida.  Those have been some of the biggest problem areas lately but the issues are all over.

        Ask pointed questions about membership numbers and see what the reaction is.  Some DE's - low level paid guys are good, others useless.  Lots of pressure to up numbers and raise money.

        As an aside - The whole popcorn thing is out of control.  Overpriced, lousy quality and way overpriced.  Many feel it violates BSA's own criteria for fundraising - being sold ONLY by using the Boy Scout name and NOT "fair value" for the price.

        by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:27:41 PM PDT

•  More sales of assets

  Despite concerns from Hood Canal landowners that wildlife and private property will be harmed, the Seattle area's Boy Scouts council said yesterday it will move ahead with plans to log a forest in one of the oldest Scout camps in the United States.

  A state permit application to log about 80 acres in Camp Parsons near Brinnon will be filed "by next week at the latest," said Mark Hunter, administrations director for the Chief Seattle Council-Boy Scouts of America.

  Project opponents -- including about 40 landowners whose properties surround the camp and the adjoining Pulali Point Wilderness -- vowed to continue fighting.

  "If the Boy Scouts think we're just going to give up, they're mistaken," said Mark Rose, a Pulali Point resident. "They're not going to log Pulali Point."

  Since last year, local Boy Scouts officials have planned what Hunter calls "traditional prescribed thinning" of forests at Camp Parsons, which held its first Scout summer camp in 1919, nine years after the national organization was chartered.

  Much of the camp's adjoining forest land on Pulali Point -- a wildlife-rich peninsula facing Jackson Cove on the west and Dabob Bay on the east -- was bequeathed to the Scouts by a Tacoma dentist, Harold Johnson, in 1995

  Source

  by lapin on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:31:21 PM PDT

•  Personal story

  When our son was in pre-school my wife and I got to know another couple whose son also attended.  We were liberal west-coasters in the darkest depths of suburban Ohio (temporarily), and were eager to meet anyone who shared diverse interests beyond the Cincinnati Reds, NASCAR, church, and latent racism.  

  This couple seemed nice.  Smart. Relatively progressive.  I was interested that the dad worked for the Boy Scouts as an accountant.  I'd never met someone who was actually paid for working for the Boy Scouts.

  One evening, we went to their house for dinner.  The place was a fucking mansion.  They had the latest electronics gear (for the time).  Antiques.  Nice oriental rugs.  Over dinner cooked on a commercial-style range, I stupidly asked what the mom what she did for a living, thinking that she must have a really great job for them to afford all the errr...worldly possessions.

  Answer?

  She was a stay at home mom.  Hadn't worked since they got married several years earlier.

  The stories you hear about overpaid executives at the BSA are true.  

  by Ernest T Bass on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:48:36 PM PDT

  •  that's a great story...

    But to be fair, they could have just inherited a lot (or more authentically, he could have done the books for the local mob boss on the side). :o)

    by Beowulf on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 09:54:44 PM PDT

    •  No - it was income

      I asked later.

      Crass, I know, but I was flabbergasted.

      by Ernest T Bass on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 07:20:30 AM PDT

•  Ya know...

  My dad's a scoutmaster for a troop here in NoVa...

  We are in a fairly liberal area, and most of the adults who are republicans tend to be libertarian, and we have political discussions and speak about our religious beliefs honestly, plenty of agnostics and a few athiests too.  But the thing about it is, like politics, the efficacy of the Boy Scout troops are local, many people of a liberal stance look down upon the Boy Scouts and look at it and say, they are RW crazies who are just nazi youth, and things like that.  But what my dad and my old troop proved is, the right person, and good support from the community and the church that sponsors the troop, can really make the troop a diverse and non-political/non-religious entities that just teaches the boys a secular but along the lines of judeo-christian morality lesson and I think what is more important, gives boys in single parent households strong mother or father figures to respect.  I think more people on the liberal side of the aisle should stop scoffing at the Boy Scouts, and start trying to change it from the inside.  Just my 2 cents tho.

  by doctormatt06 on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:11:59 PM PDT

  •  Some of us are

    but it's a VERY difficult fight......

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:13:46 PM PDT

  •  Cub Scouts

    My son's school is trying to get a Cub Scout pack started. There's a meeting Monday night. And I live in dark blue Alexandria. This is one liberal who will do her best to fight back against the conservatives overtaking the BSA.

    by phinky on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:11:06 PM PDT

•  Timeliest diary of the week

  The Right has adopted the Scouts as another of its icons, and accuses civil libertarians of being anti-American because they don't want the organization to discriminate.

  Many Americans don't understand the discrimination case against the Scouts that went up to the Supreme Court. But they do understand people living like kings when they shouldn't be.

  by Dump Terry McAuliffe on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:18:55 PM PDT

  •  Again it's more rhetoric

    than reality..... BSA has in effect what's a "don't tell" policy - total hypocrisy.

    If you make an issue of it you're toast.  If you're ethical and moral - being a SCout and DO raise the issue - you're screwed.  Cozza proved that.  He was a real up and comer in Scouting until he outed himself.

    He's the one consistent voice in that issue with "Scouting for All" - but he can't win given court rulings.

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:30:42 PM PDT

•  One point though

  the "Boos" directed against the Boy Scouts at the Democratic convention a few years back made the Democrats look bad.......

  It fed into the "Attack on our values" theme and further undercut attempts by "progressive" elements in BSA to make headway.  

  It pushed BSA even MORE into the arms of the right.

  by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:27:11 PM PDT

•  Criminal complaints

  Have any of these volunteers or parents filed criminal complaints against the pedophiles in the BSA? I know if someone hurt my son in any way, I wouldn't waste time complaining to a supervisor. I would call the police.

  Sexual molestation is a crime, not a customer service complaint.

  It also sounds like there is some fraudulent activity in the BSA.

  by phinky on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:17:55 PM PDT

  •  Lots of sealed settlements

    but officially BSA says IT isn't responsible.

    It's always the fault of those not following procedures..... but the Idaho case exposed BSA complicity all the way up to National.  Procedures were NOT followed.

    But again - if settlements are always sealed.... Boyle's book was possible only because BSA attorneys screwed up in ONE case and didn't get a confideniality agreement signed first.

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:22:29 PM PDT

•  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

  First off, let's disclose that I am an active adult leader in the scouts. My sons are almost finished, but I got involved helping some other troops, and now am a volunteer commissioner for some special needs troops in northern New Jersey. My caution here is that there is some really fabulous work being done by the volunteers, and some really dedicated paid professionals, to bring a happy camping experience to both boys and girls (Venture crews). You mention it above, but I'd like to really highlight it. As a volunteer commissioner, I have had to follow up on some great work done by a professional scouter, who was very low key and no self promoter, who I consider to have been saintly, in the dictionary definition of the word.
     Working with some of the special needs scouts has given me a real life lesson in what real "scout spirit" is all about. I have had the experience of seeing how amazingly well the teachers and adult volunteers cope, against amazing odds, with many obstacles to making life as happy as possible for our scouts.
     Our problem--like that of many mainstream troops--is the difficulty in attracting and keeping adult volunteers for the scouts. Whatever problems there may be at the top of the organization, that doesn't necessarily affect the ability to bring volunteers into the local troops.
     I read the Rolling Stone article, and know enough about journalism to realize that if what was in the article wasn't true, there would most likely be a lawsuit against the publication.
     I have also been involved, in a small way, in helping a local organization to operate a camp purchased from the Scouts, which was partly a result of declining enrollment in the Scouts in this area. Again, whatever the problems at the top, the declines in enrollment help to motivate some of the sales.
     My comment would be to put stronger emphasis on the great deal of good being done by the organization, and stronger emphasis on the need for parental participation, despite the problems.
     The scouts grow up very fast in the four or five years that most are involved.
     I have personally witnessed the invaluable contribution of scout troops that volunteered for emergency duty during Hurricane Floyd, putting their swimming, canoeing, first aid, and leadership skills to the test when the floodwaters were more than 30 ft high, and loaded with whatever pollutants were caught up in the river.
      I know that there are more recent examples with Hurricane Katrina and Rita.
      While not shrinking from the need to address any real problems, I would just add much more emphasis to the decline in adult volunteers as one of the major causes of declining enrollment. The causes are well known: people are very busy, with many two-income families and multiple sports activities for the young adults.
     I see troops either folding or curtailing activities, where the one major obstacle is recruiting adult volunteers. One troop of special needs scouts had to go into hibenation, even though they had 50 willing scouts, because we could not get adult leadership with the right skills to help bring them the benefits of the scouting program. I know that this troop is not alone in the problem. And I'm sure that this situation is played out in other regions. I also see great work being done by the Girl scouts, especially at the Red Cross events that we also support.
     I would worry that some people might decide not to get involved with scouts, for some of the reasons cited above. Unfortunately, without good leadership at the troop level, and a strong committee structure, the ones who really suffer are young adults who really want to be scouts.
    A constructive suggestion: scout units also have a sponsoring partner. If you work with the charter partner, like a church, VFW, American Legion, Elks, etc., you are still helping to bring scouting to the boys. Look up what they did in Katrina, or on the website Do a Good Turn Daily. Scouting could help you more than you realize.
           

  by jfdunphy on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 10:02:03 PM PDT

  •  I AM a Scout Leader

    And as noted there are great people in Scouting as volunteers. "Scouting" is a great concept that has benefitted many. I'm from a family that's been in Scouting since its founding.  Long serving Scoutmasters.  But - again as noted - there is a huge and growing division between the volunteer base in Scouting and the paid "professionals" that control BSA Inc.  Those in charge of BSA have subverted its purpose and run it for their own benefit.  THEIR focus is on "money and numbers" as many will note.  BSA Inc. is NOT focused on boys - as many volunteers will say.

    The problem is that this organization that has betrayed its ideals.  Real "Scouters" have been betrayed by BSA Inc.  The "good guys" remaining in the professional ranks have gotten the message - go along or you're out.  And too many in the professional ranks are just plain mediocre - if not aspiring Naploeons.  There is NOT a high regard for the paid staff among ANY of the voluntreers I know.  Yes there are a few but they are notable enough to make mention of.  And the truly autocratic and arrogant ones drive far more out of Scouting than they bring in.  If your local Council is fine, you're lucky.  If you get one of the "professionals from hell" you'll see Scouting in your area self-destruct in short order.  And they don't care.  As long as things LOOK good.  And it's easy to fake numbers.

    Many of the best volunteers HAVE left the worst Councils after butting heads with the worst of the professionals. Frankly, the organization does not DESERVE most of the volunteers that serve it.

    Given a choice, many would go to a competing organization but that leaves BSA Inc with all the assets given to BSA FOR THE USE OF BOYS.

    The whole chartering structure is designed to leave power concentrated in the hands of BSA preofessionals.  The Chartering Organization Representative is a member of your Council's board and voting member but most do little more than sign papers once a year.  Even when - as in Chicago - volunteers DO manage to organize and vote Council Leadership out, they have to go to court to get them to leave.  It's a rigged system.

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 11:24:56 PM PDT

•  This diary is interesting and...

  I am sympathetic to the issues raised in the diary.  I was a Boy Scout, an adult Scout leader, camp staff and avid member of the Order of the Arrow.  THE BSA has always had problems.  I was a mormon member of the BSA and even as a youth my group of scouts had difficulty in the controling aspects of scouting that he mormon church puts onto scouting.

  Scouting should ignore the entire gay issue.  Scouting should be "co-ed" - boy and girls - like it is in so many European countries.

  There are a  lot of "shoulds" for the BSA.  However as an institution I believe that it does have value, and teaches boys positive values in life and practical knowledge.  The diariest must agree as well with his complaint about declining participation.  Scouting certainly as an organization is many times more positive than negative.  I would think my a factor of 100.

  Finally, the BSA is a private organization.  If you have problems with it don't join.  Speak out about the problems. The problems identified in this diary are not unique to Scouting.  Pedophilia and other abuse has been a problem for churches, schools, treatment programs and many other youth serving institutions.  The BSA must be proactive in addressing these issues correctly.  If their efforts are deemd insufficient by you then you should quit the BSA.  You then ought to consider other alternatives like Campfire or the new pagan oriented group called Spiral Scouts.

  Scouting made me what I am today and that includes a committed liberal and evironmentalist.  I am an Eagle Scout and held national offices in the Scouting organization.  I have never been a Republican and Scouting never resulted in me thinking that way or giving even a moments pause to abandon liberal thinking.

  by Brother Dave on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 11:09:16 PM PDT

  •  BSA WANTS "dissidents" to quit

    which means the problems get worse.  NO dissent, NO change. No chance of change.  When BSA wants to merge a COuncil out of existence they make a real effort to "blow up" the Council and drive out the old-timers.  Then they can say "It's not working - we HAVE to do this" and they don't have anyone around to scream bloody murder when all the assets are sold off.  Same strategy with selling off assets.  Let a camp run down.  Don't schedule use.  Then it's a self-fulfilling jutification.  It's not used so we need to sell it.  But the more you sell off, the less facilities you have to use.  Boys WILL go to a camp 2 hours away when they have second thoughts about going to one 4 hours away.  MY old summer camp was great - cabins or tents - a wide range of accommodations and facilities.  Two lakes - one for boating one for swimming.  Easy to get to.  You could even go ther on weekends.  Gone.  I was appalled at the camp we have left.  A pile of rocks.  Skanky lake.  Leaky tents on rotting platforms.  Hard not to make comparisons.

    An old timer - who worked both the paid professional side and the volunteer side once told me"

    Boy Scouts would love to get rid of Boy Scouts.  But they can't.  The Boy Scouts - the older kids - are the higher risk - accidents, abuse all that. The camps and facilities for them are expensive and harder to run. Boy Scouts takes alot of effort.  The volunteer leaders in BOY Scouts are the hard core Scouters - and BSA doesn't WANT people that pay too much attention and care that much about Scouting.

    Boy Scouts LOVES Cub Scouting.  Young kids.  They raise lots of money.  Not many problems.  You don't need the summer camps.  Cheap program.  The adults turn over quick.  Don't pay attention.  Do as they're told.  If they could, it's be Cub Scouts only.

    BUT when you're called "BOY SCOUTS" of America, you can't get rid of Boy Scouts.

    by xrepub on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 11:37:46 PM PDT

    •  I agree with you...

      that is why I suggested alternative youth programs.  I think that the BSA has problems.  I am just not willing to believe that the problems are so rife throughout the entire BSA organization.  Disadents are different that those trying to effect change in the organization.  If they are being driven out then the BSA will eventually collapse and that might be a good thing.   But at his point I see too much positive to wish the death of the BSA.  I do want reform but I no longer am involved in Scouting and would not likely choose to in the future.  That is my choice.

      by Brother Dave on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 11:01:35 AM PDT

      •  ANYONE questioning ANYTHING

        in BSA risks getting labeled a troublemaker.  ANYONE that isn't in lockstep is a "Dissident" as far as BSA is concerned.......

        Frankly, it is REALLY hard to "work for change" - even when a whole COuncil is mobilized - as in Chicago.

        IF you get a bad professional in as a Scout Executive and the Board doesn't deal with him and keep him in check, they can make a mess of things and ruin a Council in a year or two.  Let them control the nominating committees and lock up the Board and you're screwed.  

        And frankly, there aren't enough people willing to pay close attention and put the time in at that level in many Councils.  Most volunteers are in it for the kids.  "Council" is alot of wasted time in meetings that last too long and don't accomplish enough.

        the boyscoutsfortruth site has a great summary of how things are manipulated - below is an excerpt which says it all better than I

        http://www.boyscoutsfortruth.com/...

        
        I know that at the just concluded national meeting of BSA a new audit procedure was discussed.  The new procedure will require that volunteers, as well as the professionals, sign off on the veracity of the membership numbers.  This is an encouraging sign as it shows that national is aware there is a problem within the professional ranks and has taken steps which might fix the problem.  The potential devil, here, is in the details.  If the volunteers get full access to the fundamental information, and if they are willing to hold the pros to account, there should never be another large membership fraud.

        If, however, the pros obfuscate the books or the volunteers do not step up, what we have created is volunteers who end up serving as dupes for the pros.  In fact, once they have signed off on numbers that are false, they are under tremendous pressure to become, and remain, co-conspirators in future fraud.

        Can leopards change their spots?  Professional Scouters have shown themselves to be as slippery as eels in the past.  Sadly, I have reached the point where I do not trust them as a class.  One of my local colleagues suggested that the folks in Atlanta had violated real laws.  That real harm had been done to people (careers ended, resources illegally diverted, services not delivered) by their actions and that, if Scouting was serious about reform, a mea culpa and a resignation would not be enough.  I suspect, though, that that, and some vague promises about cleaning up the council, were all you got.

        If some one were held personally responsible, it would send a message to the whole organization that these behaviors are unacceptable and will not be tolerated.  As things currently stand, no such message has been transmitted.  Instead, rumor has it that our council board has been cautioned to steer clear of the media and to refer all questions about membership to the professional staff.  By the end of summer, that same message is likely to have filtered down to all the key volunteers.  On the one hand it makes sense to coordinate the flow of organizational information through those who are in a position to have the big picture (though one wishes that board members had the big picture).  The cynic, however, sees a determined effort to plug leaks and avoid the rogue board member who goes public with the problems.  I suspect that similar guidance is happening all across the country.

        Rumor has it that Scout Executives are taught that there are two kinds of Board Members.  There are those who think for themselves and who can bring creative ideas to the organization (along with a certain amount of chaos) and those who are yes men who will not bring much energy to the process but will not bring much disruption either.  Smart Scout Executives populate their boards with the latter.  Whether or not they are taught to do this, my experience with Scout Boards is that they are largely filled with people who, by habit and inclination, defer to the professionals.

        It should also be noted that the professionals have what amounts to veto power over the appointment of all key volunteers.  Boat rockers, whistle blowers and agitators, who are all too rare to begin with, can be effectively screened out by denying them any power positions (and therefore, information access) in the organization.

        The combination of lap dog boards and control of senior and middle volunteer management positions give the pros an immensely powerful position from which to block reform (and protect their own positions).  It will take a grass roots rebellion or a determined legal attack at the top to actually reform the system nationally.  Small determined groups with strong ethics and strong stomachs can achieve local results but, unless the tide shifts nationally, the system always tries to return to the old status quo.

        A determined legal attack at the top is the fastest and surest way to root out the things that are wrong but the risks are great. A determined legal attack on the corruption at Arthur Anderson and at ENRON cured their corruption but destroyed the organizations.

        On the other hand, grass roots rebellions are also messy.  The typical volunteer scouter is only vaguely aware that the District and Council exist.  They are unaware of how they function and they little care, so long as necessary services are provided.  (Not unlike their knowledge of government...)  If the good ones knew what was going on, they would clamor for reform.  But, to make them aware of what is going on, a lot of dirty laundry would have to be hung out in public.  Scouting has many enemies who would love to use that to pick the organization apart.  Sadly, the rebellion will also divert a lot of energy that should be going into servicing youth.

        If you loose the press, the dirty linen goes public, the enemies have a field day, and maybe Scouting reforms or maybe it is not resilient enough and it dies.  The media, as I am sure you know, follow their own path and, once you have opened to them, things tend to get out of control.  Some of them are already enemies of Scouting.

        All that said, I guess I lean in the direction of going public and pushing the mantra of - preserving the "timeless values" by purging the organizational corruption - and hoping for the best.

        The acid test data are not really available to me.  If the Scout internal study in Atlanta looked at the Council as a whole and addressed the problems of membership padding and professional assessment in both the urban and suburban settings, maybe Scouting sees the light and there is some hope of internal reform.  If the study focused only on Scoutreach and the units pre-identified by outsiders as problems, national does not "get it" and strong medicine must be administered.

        The basic problem MUST BE fixed.  It is a cancer slowly eating away at the organization.  Just changing top execs in Atlanta will not get scouting to inner city boys in Atlanta ( the new execs will probably steer clear of the inner city because of the "problems" that they had there) or anywhere else.  Nor will it fix the basic climate of dishonesty created by the current professional incentive system.

        The problem is that BSA Inc. never holds its "professionals" responsible for their frauds and manipulations.  They prefer throwing out the volunteers tht raise the issue.  Legal action in Chicago and Alabama may have an impact.  It seems like more is in the works.  It MIGHT make a difference ONLY if the media cover it but they seem VERY reluctant to do so.  The pedophile scandal disappeared quickly because as Boyle - then a reporter for the pre-Moon "Washington Times" said - it's a "feel-bad" story.  NOBODY wants to hear bad things about Boy Scouts - and BSA Inc. COUNTS on that. They hide in Irving - refuse to answer questions and issues fade away.  The enrollment fraud scandals get dropped by complacent local authorities who "don't want to hurt Boy Scouts."  Atlanta is one of the few places where charities have withheld funding until investigations were completed.

        by xrepub on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 07:15:35 PM PDT

        •  Not a word

          on the alternative possibilities for scouting.  Your comments are just more and more repetition on the vitriolic attack against the BSA.  Fine hate them and do not help them; do not join.  If your motive is youth programming like scouting condider Campfire or Spiral Scouts.

          If you need something to hate, then I would say your focus is right for you as you have issues that are important to you.  It does not seem to matter to you one wit that others might see alternative choices as a means of sending the message to the BSA.  You on the other hand wissh a pox upon them for their failure to change and meet expectations that you define.  Like Wal-Mart they are big but they are not a monopoly.  You have a choice.  I suggest exercising it.

          by Brother Dave on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 10:53:05 PM PDT

          •  My VALID criticisms

            are directed against a small but controlling part of BSA - those paid professionals that use Scouting to provide a very comfortable living while doing little to help Scouting.  

            My comments are specifically directed against those in corporate positions that KNOWINGLY fake enrollment claims to keep their positions or advance in their careers, those that sell off camps to meet financial goals - in short those that focus on the illusion of success instead of really helping the volunteers in Scouting.

            I have noted that Scouting itself is a great program and that the volunteers in it are great people - even many of the paid staffers do a good job.  BUT the current environment is focused on illusions of success, obscuring failures and resistance to ANY openness and accountability.  

            This has all been "institutionalized."

            As noted a minority - but far too large a number - of local Councils are really in trouble.  But again, BSA National turns a blind eye to the misdeeds of its paid staff.  It hypocritically removes dedicated volunteers that do what is right.

            There are few REAL alternatives to BSA when it comes to a Scouting type program.  The organizations you cite do NOT have the same presence or infrastructure in place as BSA.

            Instead of conceeding BSA to the few that have co-opted it, I and more than a few others choose to stay and "fight the fight" - NOT attacking Boy Scouts blindly but raising very specific and detailed issues.  The citations I listed are but a small fraction of those available.

            And if you have no problems in BSA, congratulations.  Enjoy your good fortune.  BUT I strongly suspect that your local Scout Executive - good or not - still earns a VERY good income compared to many volunteers that do the yeoman work as Scoutmasters.  REAL non-profits are pretty good about keeping compensation levels in line with the work done.  BSA has pushed the limits in major ways - enough so to raise eyebrows in the non-profit world.  I expect Williams pulled in a nice amount over $1million in 2005 - though 990's are yet to be filed for even 2004.  THAT issue should be of concern to ALL involved in BSA and those that contribute to it.  The blatant solicitation of governmental aid and preferential treatment is hypocritical coming from an organization that regularly claims status as a "Private organization" exempt from legal requirements that apply to other groups.

            Having helped build this organization I and others have a valid stake in it and deserve the "representation" BSA claims it provides.  When a Council's volunteers have to take their "corporate" leadership to court to hold them accountable, it is clear that some are not following the Scout Law.  

            by xrepub on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 11:41:31 PM PDT

          •  Beg to differ on 'Love It or Leave It'

            We need people like xrepub to work for change from within while making sure those outside the organization are fully aware of the corruption at the top. Why should he, or anyone else who loves Scouting, walk away and surrender it to those who he believes are ruining it?

            I'm glad there are people like xrepub who are willing to fight the good fight. He'd do Scouting more of a disservice by encouraging people to leave and join one of the alternative organizations you mention.

            Spiral Scouts, which might very well be a distasteful alternative to non-pagans, have barely gotten off the ground. For example, they have only two groups in my state, each over 100 miles away. Campfire USA has no councils in this state. But there are at least half a dozen Boy Scout troops within a 25 mile radius of our house.

            No youth organization for boys will come close to reaching the kind of coverage of Boy Scouts.

            by merrinc on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 12:25:47 PM PDT

•  Help stop govt's new BSA plan

  Congress is trying to pass a bill that would force cities to lose their federal funds if they don't give "equal access" to the Boy Scouts. More here. So basically the BSA claimed they were a private organization and that got them out of having to admit gays, yet they are now running to the government yet again, asking for help because they want to be federally subsidized.

  By the way, I don't think they spun their way out of that fiasco this summer, not as well as you think they did. It looked just awful.

  by JamesB3 on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 01:29:33 AM PDT

•  I've knows this for quie a while...

  had a friend, worked in data processing, did the orders for company cars for the executives.  They were NOT Escorts they were cadilacs.  Another point applicable to all fund raising activities by all children is that I won't buy.  I'll donate, but I won't buy.  GS cookies for example.  If the box costs $2.25, the kids get a quarter and the company gets the rest. So if I donate $5.00, it would be equivalent to buying 25 boxes of cookies.   My daughter also refuses to let her children "sell" this stuff.  Bad role modeling for the kids, could be dangerous on rare circumstances going to strangers' doors, etc.  She donates, too.

  by dkmich on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 02:44:23 AM PDT

  •  Respectfully disagree on the GS cookie issue.

    We sell cookies for $3.50 per box. Our troop earns 50 cents from each box and our council also earns a percentage. I'm not sure how much but I know it's a significant portion of their budget, particularly in light of ever-diminishing United Way funds. I don't think our supplier is earning an unreasonable profit. We're offering a reasonable value for the price too and c'mon, who doesn't love Girl Scout cookies? Mmmm, Thin Mints. :)

    Handled correctly, there are several things girls can learn from selling cookies. They learn about goal setting, sharpen their interpersonal and management skills, develop self-confidence by selling cookies to friends and neighbors and working at cookie booth sales, and have the satisfaction of earning money to support things the troop wants to do.

    Good leaders will use the annual cookie sale as a way to emphasize various portions of the Girl Scout Law. My girls write thank you notes to each customer. In addition to selling Cookies for the (military) Troops, they donate a portion of their cookie profits to charity each year.

    And it is a very firm Girl Scout rule that girls must be accompanied by an adult when going door-to-door. We do a lot of role-playing each year before giving the girls their cookie order forms and many of the scenarios focus on safety issues.

    by merrinc on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 11:28:42 AM PDT

    •  I'm selling GS cookies for my daughter

      There is something fishy about those profits.

      by aaraujo on Tue Jan 10, 2006 at 09:49:02 AM PDT

•  Great diary.

  My son's troop, like others described by several commenters, is run by many talented, dedicated volunteers and seems to be unaffected by the bigotry and corruption of BSA. I've lurked the boards at scouter.com and read hints of what you've written here.

  Thanks for for your dedication to scouting. We need more fair-minded folks determined to stick it out and work for change from the inside.

  Do you think a non-Christian has a chance to make it to Eagle? Is BSA truly a non-sectarian organization?

  by merrinc on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 09:29:33 AM PDT

  •  I'd say yes, no problem

    IF they're not an athiest - that's a no,no but otherwise it SHOULDN'T matter.

    It helps if they get the religion award for whatever they are if you're in an area with heavy religious overtones and a Council where religion may be a strong presence but Eagle depends more on the kid and the climate of the Troop.

    Frankly, some Troops make it far too easy to get Eagle but good leaders make the kids really earn it.

    Only caveat I might have depends on the Advancement guy at District that has to clear Eagle candidates.  Some of these can have their own "issues".

    by xrepub on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 09:53:43 AM PDT

    •  Thanks for the input.

      I sat on an Eagle BOR for one of our scouts and the guy from district was an officious little prick. He informed us before we started that we could ask the candidate any questions we wanted but that he would ask the scout about his faith. Sure enough, after 30 minutes of questioning from the reviewers, Mr. Did I Mention That I'm An Eagle Scout (yeah, at least at ten times in as many minutes) trotted out the $64 question: What do you believe? Describe your faith for us.

      The scout in question was a proud Baptist and answered the question to the district rep's satisfaction.

      My son's religious beliefs are not quite so well defined, thanks to me encouraging my children to think for themselves. We've attended services at churches of various denominations but end up most often with the UU. We're closing to joining a local UU congregation but as you know, BSA no longer recognizes religious awards from the Unitarian Universalists. If he's was forced to answer a question about his beliefs at this point, he'd probably answer that he believes in a Higher Power but isn't yet sure what it is. He'd probably also tell them that he feels closest to his Highest Power when he's enjoying the glories of nature -- like when he's hiking or backpacking in the mountains with his troop.

      by merrinc on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 10:54:21 AM PDT

      •  Uh oh..... the UUA problem

        BSA has made themselves real asses over this.

        They took on the UUA MORE over their stance on discrimination..... funny how the same "god" concept doesn't come up for Buddhists, Shinto or a few other religions that have near identical stances.

        Depending on the people involved, and the answer he gives,  there could be a problem.....

        there SHOULDN'T be but the morons that get so particular about "belief" are becoming far too common.... all rhetoric and no focus on practice...

        by xrepub on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 01:27:17 PM PDT

        •  Lord Baden-Powell

          would turn over in his grave if he knew how BSA was perverting the name and the spirit of the organization he founded. A quasi-religious home to corporate fat cats wasn't what he had in mind.

          After my experience in that Eagle BOR, I lurked the forums at scouter.com for awhile. There were more than a few there who seemed to equate Unitarian Universalism with atheism and that's not entirely accurate. While atheists -- as well as people from all other faiths -- are welcomed at UUA, after spending time with two congregations in as many cities, I'd say it's more that many UUs simply don't identify themselves as Christian because they have a much less narrow-minded view of what Jesus taught.  

          What I've found on the web leads me to believe that the position of BSA is similar to that of Girl Scouts except the GS have had the courage to come right out and say it; i.e., you must have a belief in God to belong to our organization but you decide for yourself what God is. There seems to be some conflicting information out there though because as you've pointed out, BSA doesn't seem to grasp that religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, etc aren't monotheistic.

          We may soon find out how willing they are to walk the talk here in Billy Graham's backyard. My son wants to learn more about Buddhism and possibly work on a Sangha Emblem.

          by merrinc on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 04:27:24 PM PDT

          •  The UUA has a great web site

            and web rings on a number of topics including Scouting.....good people - far more "moral" in a real sense than many I see going to church in other denominations.

             sorry no link here  - Google should work

            by xrepub on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 06:57:53 PM PDT

•  Agreed

  and notice how it's always the assholes at the top.  They have lost their way, their reason for being.  Remember it was the government that prohibited "discrimination" of homosexual scoutmasters or whatever.  Why is it this was a non issue 30 years ago when I was a Boy Scout?
  Hiking and camping with today's youth are totally passe. Now it's blasting people in the head with M16s in violent video games.  The BSA is only a symptom of much larger society problems.

  by Lasthorseman on Sun Jan 08, 2006 at 06:29:15 PM PDT