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Know Your Intelligent Design Creationists: Phillip Johnson

Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 04:46:07 AM PDT

Prof. Phillip E. Johnson is a Professor Emeritus of Law at UC Berkeley and a senior advisor and cofounder of The Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture (Catchy name for a right-wing think tank dedicated in large part to discrediting science). As the story goes, following an emotionally exhausting mid-life reevaluation of some sort, Johnson was born again and eventually set out to destroy what he calls materialist science.

The mission of the Intelligent Design PR movement as originally envisioned by Johnson is not limited to attacks on evolutionary biology. They see all science as lacking a proper theistic basis. As best I can discern, Johnson and his ilk want every field of science and indeed all public policy to be held hostage to some vague theocratic organization, with members of their own ultra-conservative religious faith occupying those seats of power. It is in this context that Johnson uses evolution to attack science. He calls evolution the 'thin edge of the wedge' with which to 'split the log of materialism open'. Much more below.

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Johnson is known as the father of modern day Intelligent Design Creationism (IDC) in part for his early organizational role developing a strategy for the IDC movement called The Wedge.

[Full Text of the "Wedge"] The social consequences of materialism have been devastating. As symptoms, those consequences are certainly worth treating. However, we are convinced that in order to defeat materialism, we must cut it off at its source. That source is scientific materialism ...

If we understand our own times, we will know that we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this, ...We call our strategy the "wedge."--Phillip E. Johnson in Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds pg. 91 - 92, 1997

Johnson first rose to quasi-national prominence after his initial book Darwin on Trial (DoT) was published in 1993. In DoT he revealed what is in the opinion of many scientists and science philosophers a multifaceted assault of legal rhetoric, cleverly constructed misinformation, and a campaign to portray all of science contemptuously as a front for an atheistic ideology which is fatally lacking a coherent metaphysical structure.

Johnson's modus operandi is on full display in DoT where he starts by portraying evolution as a 'theory in crises', and goes on to discuss the legal case for evolution using as his format a case before a criminal court. The fun and games start right away, as Johnson quietly assumes IDC would hold the defendant position, leaving mainstream evolutionary biology as the plaintiff saddled with the burden of proof. In this way he cunningly reserves the advantageous role of default winner in the event the evolutionary prosecutor is unable to 'prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Not satisfied with weighting the game so heavily in favor of IDC in this manner, Johnson then goes on to play both prosecution, defense, and jury. He presents the case against evolution using many of the same tired old arguments handily refuted on Talk Origins and shot down every day on blogs such as The Panda's Thumb, without providing substantive rebuttal. Johnson bounces around loosely, at times almost incoherently, using the terms evolution, Darwinism, materialism, and naturalism, to refer to any or all of common descent, modes of speciation, strict Darwinian gradualism, repugnant political ideologies, and even atheism.

When the confusing nature with which he uses these terms are politely pointed out by critics, he or his defenders tend to respond with the innocent act of 'I didn't mean it that way'. He goes on to challenge evolutionary biology with gaps in the fossil record and concludes there are no transitionals, or that the ones which exist are insufficient. Worst of all, he selectively quotes distinguished evolutionary biologists to make them appear to doubt evolution, when of course they do not, and then feigns surprise that anyone would impugn his motives.

A brilliant example of that tactic is when Johnson quotes the late Stephen J. Gould out of context, making it appear the eminent evolutionary biologist harbors serious reservations about evolution. When pressed, Johnson or his supporters respond to the effect that no one meant to imply Gould had any such reservations: In other words, IDC/Johnson apologists would have us believe that in a book written to cast doubt on evolutionary biology, a book in which Darwin is metaphorically on trial, Philip Johnson, a veteran Professor of Law, quoted Gould in a context conveniently supporting the book's main antievolutionary thesis, but that he didn't mean to imply that Gould doubted evolutionary biology. (Brian Spitzer chronicles some of these attacks in DoT taking Johnson to task Here)

Johnson is a lawyer. And lawyers are not bound by the protocols of science. So Johnson does what lawyers do [when the facts and reasonable inferences are not on their side]; play to emotion, fear, ignorance, and prejudice, in the hope of blinding de facto jurors to factual evidence, downplaying or undermining any evidence against his 'client', and generally present their 'case' in the most favorable light. But he applies his legal role inconsistently, slipping in and out of lawyer mode, judge mode, and science mode where and when convenient, without notifying the reader.

Despite feeling unconstrained by the protocols of science, Johnson clearly covets scientific credibility ... which leads to the rather schizophrenic position in that he uses scientific sounding arguments to support IDC, while simultaneously holding out that science is hopelessly, philosophically, rigged to ignore 'supernatural' or 'non naturalistic' explanations and thus should be dismissed.

The conclusion I can't help but come to when reading Johnson's critiques and those of his close allies is one of a legalistic shotgun approach, where he's attempting to say something, anything, which resonates in the minds of his readers. Even if it contradicts what he just got finished saying: Evolution is not science; science and evolution is atheism; science and evolution are religions; there is no scientific evidence for evolution; scientific evidence doesn't count because science excludes magic; the scientific evidence supports IDC; science is bankrupt and therefore worthless. And so on ad nauseum as they merrily drive down Self Contradiction Blvd.

I also can't think of another creationist offhand who so meticulously utilizes pretty much each and every logical fallacy known to mankind to their advantage. Ad Hoc Rationalizations, Special Pleading, False Dichotomies, Argument from Adverse Consequences, Observational Selection, Appeal to Ignorance ... etc. Johnson is a metaphorical one man wrecking crew, smashing his way through Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit with seemingly oblivious delight. He opens a hole in scientific methodology, shoots out the light of reason, all while urging his followers to stampede through the breach and storm the ramparts of science with sheer political numbers. To hell with the consequences.

Despite suffering a mild stroke in 2001, and another just recently, Johnson and his writings remain a potent anti-science force. (I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here about the strokes: I disagree with Johnson sharply and consider him a rightwing religious extremist. But I'm not happy about his misfortune or hoping Johnson suffers a lingering death or a serious handicap by any means. There are few people in the world I would wish that on, and Phil Johnson isn't anywhere close to being on that list. We all have the right to try and change public policy through legal means and Johnson is well within his Constitutionally Protected Rights in pursuing his goals with respect to science. I by no means rejoice in the knowledge of his health problems, and I sincerely wish him the best possible recovery.)

This anti-science movement and Johnson's influence on it should be taken seriously. He's an influential opinion maker and/or a political lobbyist for IDC in the evangelical grass roots community. Johnson combines down home charm and sophistication with eloquence. He is/was a polished public speaker, who knew how to tailor his language for widely varying audiences. He passed on this skill to other members of the Discovery Institute, and they have developed a substantial following who accept uncritically every word they speak or write. Johnson has and continues to inspire hundreds of thousands of his fellow fundamentalist Christians, many of whom are emboldened with recent political victories.

Judging by past and present theocracies in the world, a society in which scientific matters and everything else in the public sphere are governed by the extremist religious wing of any party would not be Edenic to say the least. But it sure could end up resembling hell.

Tags: science, evolution, Intelligent design creationism, IDC, Know Your Creationists (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 226 comments

  •  I'm so happy (4.00 / 2)

    you're on the frontpage now.

    oops. I hope the gate wasn't too expensive.

    My blog. Come visit.

    by hekebolos on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:01:14 AM PDT

  •  you'd think (none / 0)

    an intelligently designed human being wouldn't suffer a stroke.
    •  Not a design flaw (none / 0)

      Pat Robertson may be able to help us understand how Johnson has angered God.

      When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. -- Dom Hélder Câmara (1909-1999)

      by hoipolloi on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:16:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  other possibilities (none / 1)

        Misfortunes are:

        A test of Faith by God
        A test of Compassion by God
        The Work of Satan (the Adversary, the Devil)

        So why bother with science?  Don't listen to your doctor, don't go to the dentist, don't waste your money on medication - because it is all God's Will.

        I believe that there is a place for spirituality in the world.  But having faith doesn't mean that you have to fall for every flim flam artist that invokes God.

        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

        by Fabian on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:57:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well said (none / 1)

          faith has it's place but don't wield it like a weapon to bludgeon others with. Keep it to yourself.

          George W. Bush is the Ricky Martin of Presidents. In ten years nobody will ever admit that they supported him.

          by john in seattle on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:04:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Story of Job (none / 0)

          Perhaps Satan told God that Phil Johnson wouldn't ever turn on him, and God is trying to prove Satan wrong.

          OEF/OIF vet
          I've been called a left-wing extremist because I absolutely oppose torture. I can live with that.

          by jabbausaf on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:13:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Anthropmorphism at its best... (3.80 / 5)


            Clearly too much peasant think in these stories.

            So, let me get this straight, we have...

            1) An all powerfull, all knowing, all benevolent, timeless being...

            Who is.

            a) Easily suceptable to flattery.
            b) Always needing to be the center of attention (no god before me)
            c) Unwilling to just come right out and address people directly, in modern times.

            His hobbies include.

            a) Smiting, in violation of his own rules (thou shalt not kill)
            b) Making bets with Satan.
            c) Designing creatures with impulses, and then setting rules in opposition to those impulses.
            d) Unleashing plagues.
            e) Issuing extremely vague and incomprehensable commands through improbable intermediaries.
            f) Ordering people to flagrantly violate the rules he set (Thou shalt not kill... Abraham, kill your son).
            g) Changing the rules from time to time.

            OK, I'm as willing as the next guy to believe that there's something wildly more powerful than us, so much so that we migght as well just call it god and not bother to try to further understand it, but seriously... I'm not willing to believe that an all powerful being needs constant flattery and attention, like some highschool prom queen. I'm not willing to belive that a timeless being changes his commands over time. I'm not willing to believe that an all benevolent force spends its day smiting, despite an explicit prohibition against us doing so, a prohibition that it orders us to break on a regular basis.

            Just thought that someone had to say it.

        •  Insh'allah fatalism (none / 0)

          "So why bother with science?  Don't listen to your doctor, don't go to the dentist, don't waste your money on medication - because it is all God's Will."

          That sounds like Insh'allah fatalism to me.

          I wonder if that's at all related to the decline of science in the Islamic world.  Back when Europeans were living in mud huts, they were busy inventing the decimal system and algebra and doing cataract surgery.  Now?  Not so much.

          I'm not dating Edwards anymore, but I still call out his name when I vote.

          by sagra on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 09:56:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  you write (none / 0)

    "has and continues to inspire hundreds of thousands of his fellow fundamentalist Christians, many of whom are emboldened with recent political victories."

    Well there you go - follow the money.

    At risk of touching off a trollfest, here's a nagging question from a Bible reader:  the unseen.

    There are probably scant few if any native tribes of, say, mesoAmerica, Africa, wherever - speaking strictly of the "illiterate" by US terms - who do not believe in something unseen.  The last I heard from US schoolbook science (and heck, I'm dated, went to gradeschool years ago) was that if you can't see it, it ain't there - it's superstition.

    Now you've got people from all walks of life embracing "the unseen" through spiritualism of diverse kinds, in a lot of "Indian envy" formats, and so on...

    So here's the trollfest question:  When you have large "educated" groups of people allowing for "unseen" creatures, how do you reckon those beliefs with the "unseen" of JudeoChristian writing?  Do we have respect for one (the "native" things) but not the other?  Isn't it kind of condescending to embrace native ideas, yet believing their "unseen" elements to be false?

    People forget just how many Indian tribes still exist in the US, many more throughout Mexico.  How do we develop an inclusive educational format which respects all parties?

    This is a problem with science, imo, that somewhere you have to take a stance on whether there is the "unseen" or not.  This is where we get into deep water, educationally speaking, in our so-called diverse society.  How do you develop an educational agenda which "debunks" Christianity while allowing credence to, for instance, Hopi beliefs?  It seems a lot of hypocrisy is at play in the US.

    May I say that I don't think teaching agendas are the dominion of the judicial branch.  Any decent teacher puts it all out there for the kids to debunk.  

    •  Huh? (none / 0)

      Um, I don't think anyone is arguing for Hopi beliefs, or whatever, as science, or teaching them as such. Or teaching them in schools  at all other than in anthropological fashion. And I'm a little puzzled as to the relevancy, if any, of your post.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:15:13 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  simply (none / 0)

        that a lot of people, for a variety of reasons, ascribe the "unseen" as a hand in events.  Recently, for instance, the tsunami retakes.

        Science examines the materially obvious causes.

        No one from a tribal culture is going to call that a sufficient explanation.

        So how do you teach children with this bias?

        And it is relevant.  We in the US have mostly been taught that the physics is the end of the story.  

        Others would say we've only seen the footprints vis a vis the physics.

        This is a question.  Anybody:  how is science taught in schools, with respect to such beliefs?

        •  Just as simply (4.00 / 9)

          So people believe in the "unseen." So? It's hardly disrespecting their beliefs to point out that these beliefs do not constitute science.

          You're setting up a false dichotomy. No scientist  pretends that "Physics is the end of the story." Scientists are always looking for new information. But that information has to be tested by experimentation, by replication  of that experimentation, and by peer review of both the process and the substance of whatever conclusion is formed -- not by leaps of faith.

          Leaps of faith are outside the realm of science, and belong in another discussion.

          "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

          by Ivan on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:50:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Hmm. (4.00 / 5)

          This is a question.  Anybody:  how is science taught in schools, with respect to such beliefs?

          You leave those beliefs alone, out of the classroom.  If kids want to find a religious perspective (or a supernatural one), then they can get it at home or Sunday school.  But you don't propose unobservable forces and call it "science."

          Je suis inondé de déesses

          by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:50:19 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (none / 0)

            maybe school has changed since I went through it, but kids ask questions.  They don't come in as a blank slate.  They learn by discussion, not merely being deadpan at a lecture.

            This is what I'm asking, is what happens.  Any parents out there?

            •  I don't teach little kids (4.00 / 5)

              where those sorts of god questions come up more often.  I teach at a university, and the questions tend to be much more focused on IDC (I'm in Kansas, after all).  In a university classroom I can get away with just showing them why IDC is not science, and the students are pretty much able to grasp my point.

              Had I a bunch of little kids, then I would entertain their wonder and talk about different ways that different people have grappled with those big, deep questions throughout the ages.  I would in no way try to squash the wonder about things (that happens too much and kills curiousity dead), but I would show them what we know from science and talk to them about how those deeper, beyond-science questions have been answered by different peoples.

              You can respect their questions and beliefs without calling those beliefs "science," which is what the IDCers want to do.  Religion represents a different way to look at the world than science.  Science is good for knowing about how the natural world works.  In fact, it's very good for that.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:26:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Hello! Joe parent here & (4.00 / 2)

              I want my daughter taught science in science class, not religion.  

              I have no problem with her learning about religion(s)/faith in a social studies/cultural studies/religious studies context IN her public school.  In fact, it ought to taught -- its a major force in human history/behavior, etc.    

              As her parent, I will tend to her individual spritual education in the context of our family beliefs and private practices, thank you very much.  Then, when she grows up she will be free to practice/worship however she wants to, or not.  

              If she ever did pose a question to her science teacher on this subject, I would expect and hope that her science teacher would properly point out that science is based on experimentation and evidence, not un-seen beliefs.

              •  I am a parent too (4.00 / 2)

                And when I sat in on the comparative religion class  (and read the textbook)at the jesuit university, I found it to be complete, warts and all and free from all but the slightest tinge of catholic revision. (mostly a few items that anthropology has disputed from the early church history)
                 The science courses were rigorous and included evolution as the core theory underpinning each disipline.

                So being religious does not mean you have to be an idiot.

                Google Father Sundborg and Tom Ridge if you want to see a priest that rocks.

                The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

                by NCrefugee on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:54:41 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  wadda maroon. -- B Bunny (3.75 / 4)

          Science is NOT taught in schools with respect to such beliefs and it should not ever be.

          Do you want to ride on a plane designed by Coyote?

          Most americans including Native Americans are able to seperate science from religion.

          Religion should be voluntary and available to all. Science should be available to any who wish to understand the observable reality in order to make rational decisions concerning our interaction with that natural world.

          The supernatural world is dealt with in many ways by many people. My opinion that they are all deluded and wrong should have no effect on their beliefs and the establishment clause gives this the force of law.

          But those who want to constrain reality to fit in with their theology, no matter whether it is animism, christian, or muslim, should be constrained by that same establishment clause.

          Please tell us your an english major and do not work in a field where we might have to depend on your interpretation of science through a religious lens.

          The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

          by NCrefugee on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:04:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hey, hey. (4.00 / 2)

            Let's not get testy so early in the morning.

            It is quite possible that stonemason is genuinely curious about these things; I think that's the best approach to take.

            Remember, these IDC people have been sprinkling shit and calling it rosewater now for years, and many things that sound quite reasonable are only upon closer examination shown to be bogus.  

            People can come here and learn about things, and maybe we can counter some of the common-sense-sounding crap ("Let the kids decide," e.g.).  But people probably won't hang around to get called names or get made fun of.

            Je suis inondé de déesses

            by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:11:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  maybe (none / 0)

            you need to think again.

            Because the breadth of spirituality in our country is an argument against introduction of a particular bias into the classroom, not for it.

            •  thank you (none / 0)

              mark in ks, because that is exactly the point, to ask questions.  

              Read carefully - I'm not dictating spiritual policy.  I'm saying that any spiritual bias - pro, con, whatever - is not going to work in a pluralistic society.

              I'm asking, by ignorance - because I Don't have children in public education - how science teaching interfaces with spiritual ideas.  How does the education take place?  How are questions from, for instance, an Indian, handled in science education?

              I'm not saying how it should interface at all.
                If I sounded rhetorical, please get past it.  I don't mean it that way.  I'm here to learn

              •  Grrrr..... (4.00 / 2)

                Religious ideas of any kind are not typically taught or addressed in the science classroom.  To use your example, Indian students with questions about how their faith intersects with science, for example, would be encouraged to have that conversation with their spiritual or church leadership.  

                You see, there is no need for supernatural/spiritual "ideas" in the  science classroom because science is silent on the subject or religion or spirituality.  It's very simple:  that discussion belongs in church or at home.

                How many times.....

                I prefer this brand of Socratic inquiry, actually: WTF is wrong with you?

                by lightiris on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:38:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  People assume science is making claims (4.00 / 2)

                And certain scientists do still cling to the late 19th century notion that what they were doing was building a value free version of 'Truth'

                The smarter ones don't. They have read their Kuhn and read their Popper (and some may even have read their Wittgenstein) and understand that Science with a capital S is a social construct designed to do certain things in certain ways using certain rules.

                One of the rules is Occam's Razor "one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything".

                ID turns this on its head. While it claims that evolutionary theory cannot explain the complex structures we see today, in practice it demands that science admit an outside entity because scientists can't prove that entity doesn't exist.

                Lots and lots of scientists believe God exists. Plenty of them probably believe he could send a lightning bolt down this second and fry me at my keyboard. But they don't need him to do their fundamental job of building models that explain how things work. Occam's Razor slices ID right out of the laboratory. If the proponents can show that science just can't do its job without it then fine. But as DarkSyde points out that is not their tactic at all.

            •  ok I'll play. (none / 1)

              What does that comment mean?

              "Because the breadth of spirituality in our country is an argument against introduction of a particular bias into the classroom, not for it."

              So evolution and the scientific method are "particular bias" ?

              Perhaps I misunderstood... Tell me again why religious belief should be a science topic?

              The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

              by NCrefugee on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:31:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This is creationist argument number two. (none / 1)

                I call it the "he said, she said" argument.

                It basically involves a creationist arguing that science is just another religion, therefore it's hypocritical to exclude the teaching of "other viewpoints" (ie creationism) in science classes.

              •  whoa (none / 0)

                I didn't either say or think that religion should be taught in the classroom.

                That's what I want to avoid.

                Here's what I observe, and I'm going to paste it in below:  That people like Johnson, who evidently are using the Bible to whip up politics, are falling on their own sword.  We live in a pluralistic society, the very heart of the supposed democracy which binds us.  And you can't teach one spirituality at the expense of another, right?

                I don't understand why several posters think I am arguing for religion as science.  That is the last result I want.

                I want posturers and so-called fundamentalist imposters out, and the courts and the politicians too, out of the classroom.  And why not by falling on their own swords?

                Sigh... maybe it was too early, not enough coffee, when I chimed in.  It's been like picking up feathers ever since...

            •  Not all belief systems are equal (none / 0)

              If I'm reading you correctly you're arguing that science is an ideology that's just the same, and no better than any other ideology, say Christianity or Hopi beliefs or whatever. I disagree. The thing about science is it's naturalistic: it's based on what we've actually observed about the world, can test, and is subject to falsification. Religion on the other hand is stuff that we've basically made up, and have no way of checking (and when we do, it invariably turns out to be wrong). Given that many religious beliefs are contradictory, and teaching them all would be both confusing and time consuming (and politically dangerous -- who chooses?), I think we're better off sticking to the observable world.

              Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

              by gracchus on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:31:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  to both ncrefugee and gracchus (none / 0)

                I do not cite "expertise" but experience here.  For I was living in east Africa once with first generation literate (by their own description) African girls, and after a few months I had to throw most of what I thought I knew about anything away.  What I gleaned from them, is that for them to think of any occasion without a "spiritual" cause is... all but impossible.

                And I met some Europeans who were incensed that "Africans could be so superstitious as to pick the color yellow for other than aesthetic reasons" to paraphrase one argument.  I don't know all of Africa, but every friend I had made said the same thing in response to this:  none of them, or their families, would, for instance, employ the color yellow in a fetish without thinking of a spiritual motive first.  When I attempted, as a visual artist, to explore mere aesthetics, they laughed at the idea that one would chose yellow in a fetish because of looking good.

                It is so hard for people educated in our society to get into the heads of people educated in a spiritual society.

                Similarly even Africans told me again and again that it takes a matter of generations to begin employing "linear" thought common to logic found in western culture.  They think instead cyclically (rain, seasons, crops).  There is no limit to the misunderstanding occuring between cultures because of this, which I see is way beyond the scope of this comment.  Maybe a diary is in order.

                I don't know if it's in me to be brief, but as Mark in KS said, "I think you mistunderstand science.  It is one of the fundamental assumptions of doing science at all that the mechanisms and events and objects under study be observable.  If you don't do that, you aren't doing science."

                What may be incomprehensible to people of common US culture, if held to such standards as expressed above, many people on this earth, then, are not going to be able to do science.

                Flame me all you want, but are there any native-raised Indians out there?  Because people brought up in tribal cultures think very differently from early childhood up.  They don't separate the material from the spiritual.  It is a mistake to expect them to think as we are taught to do in US common culture.

                And damn it, tribal "spiritual" people aren't the people polluting and bombing the whole earth either, are they?  Maybe there's something the matter with the way white bread USA thinks then?  If it gets us all in this much trouble?

                maybe an examination of people who do not separate material from spiritual the way we imagine ourselves separating the two like a sandwich would be to our advantage.

                I'm not saying take it to the classroom.  I am in doubt of the classroom as a context for learning many things, at least the way it's done in the US.

                God help us, if any one strata of belief - materialistic or not - should dominate all discussion.

                •  You're totally right (4.00 / 3)

                  Primitive people are just so much WISER than us evil, materialistic decadent westerners. I mean, they may be poor, but they're so much closer to God, or nature, or whatever. Now, pass the doobie, man.

                  All belief systems have problems. I'll take rationalism over the others any day, as it's a bit more self-correcting. I'd rather have falsifiable science over inerrant scripture any day.

                  The thing is, the dominant group of primative tribesmen in the U.S. ain't the Hopi indians, it's RIGHT-WING FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIANS. And frankly, I can do without their kind of antimaterialism.  As for picking OTHER kinds of spiritual beliefs to teach as "truth" in school -- who chooses? I'm not going to surrender that choice to you, and you're obviously not going to surrender it to me. So it's best to leave that stuff out of the public schools.

                  Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

                  by gracchus on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:01:49 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  You're confusing the subjects (none / 1)

              It isn't that religion is societally irrelevant or that spiritual questions aren't important, it is a question as to whether they are relevant to a science.  

              In the end we must assume that students come with their own beliefs and, so far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong with a student raising issues regarding that and asking questions or challenging the teacher.  However, to introduce ID as a separate subject in a teacher lead discussion is absurd.  It isn't science - it meets none of the rigors of science.  Further a teacher lead discussion on anthropologic developments of spirituality in mesoamerica CERTAINLY doesn't fall under the purview of 'science' in the general American high school sense - those topics are discussed (quite openly) in other classes in high school (at least mine - which was public).

              I also take issue with the assumption that Native Americans cannot separate science from religion.  Being equally fallible, I have found that, in general, they exaggerate certain points or totally alter them fit their spiritual views - assuming they accept them at all.  Nothing different from what western civilization is doing (and has long done).

              •  adsf (none / 0)

                you write "However, to introduce ID as a separate subject in a teacher lead discussion is absurd.  It isn't science - it meets none of the rigors of science. "

                Amen, I'm not arguing.  God help us.

                What I am saying, however, is that it is not an insult to a people to observe that they don't separate the physical from the spiritual.

                This is a Eurocentric twist of thought which is not common to all people everywhere, and I'm not sure we have profited by slivering up all realms as if they neatly divided like abstract numbers.

                I guess this is beyond the scope of the issue, for the two things at play are 1) how people are taught in the classroom, vs 2) how people think based on upbringing.  Plus the issue of bringing courts/laws into it, which is absurd and entirely counterproductive.

                I'm not defending the ID'ers.  I like science.  No one's going to learn how to build a bridge without studying physics.

                It's just that the issue is a great mirror for how we, as a society, do our thinking.  And I think there is a necessary perspective missing from the debate.

      •  I (none / 1)

        love the interest and I'm honored anyone takes the time to comment on my threads, es[pecially with courteous and well thought discussion. I don't know if Kos has fixed it yet, but if he hasn't, when commentators have too many serial exchanges back and forth it used to bust the margins of the entire post for other readers. If they simply start over after another comment placed over to the left of the screen and continue off of that mark, they'll avoid that parameter if it hasn't been addressed.

        Read UTI, your free thought forum

        by DarkSyde on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:39:37 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think the point of science (none / 0)

      is that it is constantly moving and changing as new information is added or clarified.

      One can be a scientist and still admit that they don't know if there's something bigger, or some larger force, out there.  There is plenty that is still unseen.  In fact, any good scientist will admit to how much we still don't know.

      The point is the continuous search for proof, and the lack of reliance on anything that does not have proof.  The problem with Intelligent Design is that it relies on the justification of "well but it's all just so complicated!  there must be a big guy controlling this!", which relies on human bewilderment & has no proof.

      although it's getting late, you still have plenty of time

      by maracuja on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:35:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree, (none / 1)

      you have brought up, trollingly, the same argument as the ID folks: that the "unseen, unknowable" should be taught in science class.

      "Unseen, unknowable" is by definition not science. What is not measurable is not science.

      To take it to absurdity, why teach arithmetic in school? If you are working a cash register it can do the math for you as far as sums and giving back correct change. But what if YOU decide that $1 bills are worthless in your belief system, or you believe that the Canadian exchange rate is "correct" and hand out discount dollars to your customers? Or, you may be a computer geek and believe that binary is the only number system that we need. Of course, we don't have a binary cash system.

      I frankly can't figure out why "science" is so scary to people of certain religious persuasions. And I am not sure that the scary "science" isn't mostly biochemistry, meaning the melding of biology and chemistry. Physics etc may be too unseen, unknowable. Do the frightened folk think that those of us doing science have all signed an atheist allegiance card in order to get funding or work?

      Sorry, spiritual teaching belongs in books and in churches. Not in (public) schools in the US.

      Americans, while occasionally willing to be serfs, have always been obstinate about being peasantry. F. Scott Fitzgerald, the Great Gatsby

      by riverlover on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:43:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  My two cents (4.00 / 6)

      This is a problem with science, imo, that somewhere you have to take a stance on whether there is the "unseen" or not.

      I think you mistunderstand science.  It is one of the fundamental assumptions of doing science at all that the mechanisms and events and objects under study be observable.  If you don't do that, you aren't doing science.  So science has to eliminate the "unseen" (if by that you intend "things that cannot be observed").   Science disallows any "unseen," whether it be Hopi or Christian.

      You don't have to accept this assumption in your quest for knowledge; it's just that if you reject it, you're doing something other than science.

      This is where we get into deep water, educationally speaking, in our so-called diverse society.  How do you develop an educational agenda which "debunks" Christianity while allowing credence to, for instance, Hopi beliefs?  It seems a lot of hypocrisy is at play in the US.

      I'm not aware that the US educational system is out to "debunk" Christianity and substitute Hopi beliefs.  There are tons of Christian scientists.  Almost all of them have no trouble living as Christians and doing science.  It's only a relatively small number of a particular sort of Christianity that reject evolution (and many other parts of science).

      May I say that I don't think teaching agendas are the dominion of the judicial branch.

      Me either, and judges would not be involved were people not trying to inject religion into public school science classrooms.  It's that "constitution" thing that requires that the state not promote any particular religion.  IDC is a "particular religion," and requiring kids to learn it in public high schools means that the state is promoting it.  That's a no-no, and whenever a local school board decides to teach religion in the public schools, the courts have to get involved if someone asks them.

      Any decent teacher puts it all out there for the kids to debunk.  

      This, I think, is a common misunderstanding.   Are you saying, "Let the kids make up their own minds"?

      I do not mean to sound boastful here, but I have a PhD in experimental psychology, specifically in vision and visual perception.  I know a lot of physiology and biology.  I've been interested in and have been pretty seriously reading about evolution for about 12 years.  I am not in a position to critically evaluate evolutionary theory in detail.  How can I believe that a high school kid with a year of biology can do it?

      Maybe I'm just stupid, and I'm not giving kids enough credit, but if I can't understand all the detail in the theory, how can I "put it all out there for the kids to debunk"?

      Je suis inondé de déesses

      by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:48:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  maybe (none / 0)

        "debunk" is too strong a word, but if someone merely accepts "expert" thought without arriving at the conclusion through their own (maybe childish) logical rigors, they simply inherit superstition.  They have learned nothing.

        Experts are there to teach, and to be questioned.  We have, for instance, an $8,000,000,000,000+ national debt because we, in the US, rely on money "experts" to manage our affairs.  The US public think it's too difficult for the average guy to comprehend economics, when any fool should be able to understand that we've made ourselves rich by loans.  And we, the taxpayer, must pay it all back.  There's reliance on experts for you.

        Children ask the best questions of all.  When they are hushed or overruled or made the sycophants of pedants, we all pay as a society.

        •  Here's what I think about experts (4.00 / 5)

          You have to have experts, because there are many areas about which I simply don't have the education to make a good judgment, and don't have time to learn about in order to be in a position to make a good judgment.

          Of course you question experts.  If they cannot answer your question, then you go to another one who can.  And when I say "answer your question," I mean "show you the evidence for their beleif."  If they cannot do that, they're not an expert and are not worth your time.

          If they can, and do, then they are educating you and helping you come to your own decision.  But absent that education, you can't make a good decision because you don't know what the evidence is that you have to consider to make that decision.

          So yes, by all means you should be skeptical of experts.  But that does not mean completely ignoring them and going off and making shit up by yourself.  It is a rare thing indeed that knowledge has advanced by people just making things up, without evidence.

          Je suis inondé de déesses

          by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:02:25 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Economist will agree (none / 1)

          When pigs fly.
          Economics is as close to magic as any branch of religion. The reality is based on a shared belief system and even there the divisions are sharp.

          Try again...

          The biggest threat to America is not communism, it's moving America toward a fascist theocracy... -- Frank Zappa

          by NCrefugee on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:09:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Sure you're not a creationist? (none / 0)

          You're making an argument from analogy. Creationists, lacking empirical evidence LOVE arguments from analogy because they don't need any actual PROOF. And they're very often strained or false, as in this case.

          Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

          by gracchus on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 06:22:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you nuts? (none / 0)

            Argument from analogy is one of the fundamental tools of science.  It's the basis for our understanding of models, which are the only parts of science that are themselves falsifiable.  

            Darwin's own argument in Origin of Species was an argument from analogy, both because he didn't have the evidence to actually prove natural selection was the mechanism of evolution, and because he chose to structure his argument in the same way William Paley's argument for Intelligent Design was structured in Natural Theology.*  

            In fact, all of biological science pertaining to evolution since Darwin is an attempt to prove natural selection as the mechanism of evolution, and their conclusion so far: natural selection is a mechanism of evolution, but not the only one.

            *Incidentally, I find it quite ironic that IDists try to sell their "theory" as a new alternative to evolution, when in fact, Darwinian evolution was the theory that supplanted ID as the dominant paradigm, and chronologically ID is a much older idea that Darwinian evolution.

            While the voices of dissent are many, reason has but one voice. -lizardbox

            by Nellebracht on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 04:35:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  let's not be naive (none / 1)

          while the "let the kids decide" argument has been well-made, the creationists are only interested in letting the kids decide that science is bunk.

          while students should always maintain a healthy skepticism, we, as teachers, don't do them any favors by elevating junk science and mysticism and conflating them with empirical science.

          once a field of inquiry, like alchemy, has been found invalid, there's no reason to teach it any more, except as an example of a scientific dead end. That creationism never was a science to begin with only makes the argument for its inclusion in the curriculum that much more absurd.

        •  This is not true (none / 0)


          The experts were the first ones to say that Reaganomics would not work. The problem isn't the experts, it's the "experts" that the republicans are buying up to say whatever foolishness is at the forefront today. The problem is not with the scientists (to the extent that this term applies to economists), but with the charlatans who call themselves scientists, and thus give the whole field a bad name.

          Serious economists knew that this was going to be a problem, but they were dismissed by Reagan in favor of his tame "experts" in much the same way as Bush II rejects the claims of Climatologists about the Greenhouse Effect. There is no basis for such a rejection (in either case), so do NOT confuse the preachings of political hacks with the actual research done in the field. This is the problem with the Repubs, it's all propaganda and politics. There is no policy, and no substance beneath it. That is not all there is to life, reality is that which does not go away when ignored, no matter how much King George might want it to.

          I agree with you that children should ask questions, and never be too wedded to a particular theory. Be willing and able to drop it all at a moment's notice when you see evidence that it doesn't work. However, science class is not about affirming the previously held beliefs of the students. If a student doesn't agree with a particular theory, they are more than welcome to disprove it. If they are unable to disprove it, then they should tentatively accept it, just like the rest of us do, until it can be disproven. Do note, however, that this applies ONLY to theories that can be disproven, unlike ID, which cannot be tested or disproven in any way. Theories that are fundamentally impossible to disprove are not valid scientific theories. Much like  if I were to make a claim that there is a planet that cannot be reached or observed in any way, inhabited by purple elephants. An interesting conjecture to be sure, but irrelevant, and not properly part of science.

    •  i guess (none / 0)

      it's not evident enough above, that I am saying one can not impose any belief system on science - because every listener is going to bring their own beliefs right in with them.  Including children, who are not such blank minds as some might believe.

      What I question is western thought on science, period.  I suggest that we need to realize we already HAVE a POV (which separates material from spiritual) even when we think we don't.  Thinking we don't have a spiritual POV IS a POV.  

      I suggest that it does us good to realize that we have a peculiar westernized POV which sadly begs for political opportunists to throw wrenches into the machinery of education.

      This is not to debate what is taught in classrooms.  This is to ask what presumptions enter into even the most "expert" of our thinking.  I hope some people born into and brought up in non-western cultures chime in.  Because I have read highly educated eastern writers who are critical of the western propensity to separate material from spiritual.

      Any way you cut it, we have a mess.  But what I'm not saying is that the courts should solve our problems.  I'm not backing up this Johnson crackpot either.  I'm very glad for this diary.

      •  Damn relativist n/t (none / 0)

        Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

        by gracchus on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:22:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Let me elaborate (none / 1)

        Basically, using that rather slippery argument, you get into a position where it's impossible to teach almost ANYTHING. Hey, you want someone to read a novel: what makes that novel more worth reading than any other novel? That's a value judgment. Teaching history: just because that historical event is important to YOU, it isn't to ME. And you're interpreting it all wrong, anyway. Referring to expertise to resolve these questions isn't allowed under your system: you don't trust experts (they've all been wrong) and have gotten us all in trouble. Frankly, I think it leaves us much worse off than before.

        Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

        by gracchus on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 07:29:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This sort of points up (4.00 / 2)

          an ugly confluence of irrationalism (both religious and secular) and post-modernism.

          The po-mo idea that all knowledge is subjective, while trivially true, is dangerous.  It is trivially true because all knowledge is from a human point of view.  It is dangerous if one tries to make it any more specific than that, or forgets that not all beliefs are knowledge.  It is clearly the case that some beliefs are not better than others at helping you get around in the world.

          Although science has sort of backed into a pragmatic definition of "truth," it does not mean that "whatever works for you is as true as whatever works for me."  It simply means that truth is tentative, and something is true only inasmuch as it fits the available data.

          The fit between data and belief is what gets us knowledge, and some beliefs fit the data a lot better than others.

          Je suis inondé de déesses

          by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:50:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Maps and territories (4.00 / 5)

            Where the simple gloss on post-modernism goes wrong it to imply that all knowledge is subjective, instead of the more incisive view that knowledge is actually contextual.

            Whereas you can use the simplistic first instance of post-modernism to be casually dismissive of things with which you disagree, and grant equal weight to all perspectives, the second view is a powerful tool that can be used to apply different working models to the same phenomena.

            This is all abstract - but to be concrete, you might have a map of the globe that is political in nature... showing the borders of states and nations, and this is useful for one set of purposes, such as diplomacy. You might have a map of the globe that displays climate and precipitation, which is useful for meteorology.  Or a map of natural resources. Or a map of population density. Or a map showing roads and bridges.

            Each of these are limited. Each of these have their own emphasis or bias. Each of these illuminate a particular facet of experience. And each can be useful in a given context.

            In this sense, the post-modern notion that there we live in a world of multiple overlapping models is useful. No map is complete. No map is the territory itself, and shouldn't be confused with it.

            But that doesn't mean that anyone may create an arbitrary geographical or resource map that is based entirely on prejudices or caprice and expect it to have much utility, aside from entertainment.

            The times, they are a-changin'

            by Malacandra on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 09:38:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think (none / 1)

              the post-modernists stole the map analogy from philosophers of science.  :)

              Theories are maps: they are persepectival, they are bounded, they are incomplete, they are old (the territory changes faster than the maps), and they are tentative.  Oh: and they are all wrong, in detail.

              It's a good way to think about all "knowledge," and I like it.  Thanks.

              I don't mean to dismiss all pomo, just some of the more ludicrous aspects of it.

              Je suis inondé de déesses

              by Marc in KS on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 09:50:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Any science teaching that attempts ... (none / 1)

      ... to debunk faith and the teachings of faith has crossed a boundary that should not be crossed. I don't know of any instance where science has debunked my faith (Christianity, based on the Scriptures). There are those using science who have attempted to do so, and all have failed.

      Just as faith cannot be used to prove or disprove science because the two disciplines rely on different methods of arriving at truth, science being the knowledge of things seen and faith being the substance of things unseen (i.e., not discernable with the physical senses or intellect), science cannot be used to prove or disprove faith.

      What should the person of faith do when science makes a new discovery? Well, this is where faith comes in, that is, faith based on Scripture, not just emotion. The person of faith assumes that his or her faith will encompass all truth, including the new trutrh of science, then looks to see what new scientific discovery reveals about faith.

      A good example of how this works can be seen in the way people of faith should react to dinosaur bones. Back in ancient times, there was no scientific knowledge that would let ancient peoples understand dinosaur bones, they created myths about them. Greek mythology is full of such instances (e.g., a mammoth skeleton interpreted as a cyclops). Today, though, we have science to explain dinosaur bones, and one of the ways it does so is to show the age of the Earth as being millions of years old, with dinosaurs preceeding the advent of Mankind by millions of years. Since my Scripture (the Bible) does not tell how old the Earth is, I incorporate the new scientific knowledge into my understanding, both of science and the nature of God.

      The problem comes when we have people who do not understand accepted science conversing with people who do not understand accurate interpretation of Scriptures, or sometimes this situation can be found within an individual. That can lead to a lot of confusion, and, as we have seen, can be used to attack the other discipline if used by people with an agenda other than the search for truth.

      Where the search for truth is the goal, I believe both science and faith are proper pathways if used as they are intended, and, when so used, they will not contradict.  

      •  As an atheist... (none / 0)

        ... and a scientist, I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with the above comment.  Science and faith address different areas of human experience, and you really can't use the tools of one to address the concerns of the other.  Most of the time the two need never overlap.

        Now, some religious individuals make "statements of fact". That is, they make a statement about an observable, testable aspect of the universe - which will mean that it enters territory where  scientific investigation of that "statement of fact" is valid.  That can, shall we say, lead to conflict when the "statement of fact" is contradicted by current scientific knowledge - that is, by the evidence accumulated to date.

        One may choose, in such cases, to regard this as an irreconcilable conflict between science and faith.  This leads to such absurdities as Creationism, or the equally absurd "attempts to disprove a religion". (You can't disprove a non-testable concept, because you can't test it.)    

        On the other hand, there are other approaches - in my view, more mature ones.  Those of faith may disagree with the interpretation of their religion that led to the "statement of fact" - as I believe the poster above would generally hold. Or, they may choose to say, "science is never complete, and though we appear to have a contradiction now, it is my belief that in the future we may learn something that reconciles the statement with the evidence we will have then."    

        A person without faith, such as myself, can just shrug and say, "Well, the particular statement by the religious person contradicts the available evidence." That just means the statement is incorrect (well, that term is an over-simplification, but works for practical purposes).  It doesn't invalidate any aspect of the religion that doesn't directly depend on the incorrect statement.  If I thought that science "disproved" areas where members occasionally made incorrect statements of fact, I would have to think practically all political philosophies were "scientifically invalid".

        Hm. Come to think of it... nah, I'm not even going there. :)

    •  Well, lets look at this.... (none / 1)

      from the view of someone who would use a prole example to answer.

      I fix pipes and water systems for a living.  I know that plumbing and the flow of water follows certain physical patterns that best utilize the flow of water.

      The Indian days some dream about and envy, had damn little plumbing, thus sanitation issues were reduced to "head out to the trees and point your ass where you please, just cover it up."  Well, what many don't tell you is how child mortality used to be really high among indians, but it seems better now that there are flush toilets around.

      Now metaphysically, the flow of water over a waterfall can be called the action of gods.  However, we know the metaphysical explanation fails for we can simulate the waterfall in our own backyards with a simple pump, and a child soon learns that if you pour water out of a glass the flow is like a waterfall, only smaller and more localized.

      ID is another chicken and egg argument.  Water flows.  Water flows downhill because of gravity and mass displacement.  What is gravity?  What holds you down on the ground, and what makes water run downhill.  Is there ID in this?  No, it's just a plain old physical law we take for granted, everyday.  We don't see angels and demons in this unless there is an unwelcome disruption or altogether too much flow of water.  

      Then, all manner of incantations including requests to God for help in damning something or other in either the cause or the resultant mess can take place.  So, sometimes God does either get dragged into such things, or worse, gets the blame for the uncontrolled water flow.

      ID?  Eveolution is the ultimate ID!  This is why I find the current, hot ID argument so laughable.  Like the flow of water, all we have to do is just look to see.  the Earth is a great "book" in its own right.

      Just look around.  Who ya' gonna' trust?  The Earth or some doctrinaire thesis?  I think the religgies in the fundie camps don't want to admit that we have gotten to where we are by a lot of schtupping, eons of schtupping, messy, grunting, schtupping.  We are supposed to be so pure and God would not want his made of clay created image defiled in something as base as schtupping.  I think this is the gist of the argument.

      However, I think a bigger argument can be had in light of the pre-Harrapan cities off the coast of Rajasthan, and Kerala states in India.  These big submerged cities predate the bible by thousands and thousands of years.  If the fundues can make this inconvienient fact disappear, then the timeline of their faith is not threatened.  Folks, Egypt gave the Atlantis myth to the Greeks, who in turn made Atlantis Greek.  But the Egyptians knew where Atlantis was.  Not Crete, not Bimini, but on an ancient and old shore, long submerged beneath the waves that crash upon the beaches of....India.    

      Today, 7/23/08, 4125 Americans, and untold Iraqis are dead, tens of thousands more maimed. Bush lied, how soon before your family pays the price for that?

      by boilerman10 on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 08:38:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Your problem begins here (none / 0)


      With this quote "...if you can't see it, it ain't there - it's superstition."

      This is NOT the claim of science. The claim of science is that if you can't observe it or its effects, then it is not part of science. Believe all you want about creatures you can't see, but don't try to build scientific theories that rest on their actions. If you want to build such theories, you can call them something (I think "mythology" was a common term), but you CANNOT properly refer to them as science. As we have a "science" class in school, it should properly contain science. If you want to add mythology, that's OK (I guess, if people are willing to study it), but teach it in "mythology" class, or comparative religion, or something similar.

      To put it another way, science is not designed to prove anything, it is designed to disprove theories. Theories that have resisted disproving are tentatively accepted as true for as long as they continue to do so. Technology, medicine, etc... is built on these. If a supposition cannot be disproven (like "there is an invisible being that cannot be detected in any way, but he wants us to do X"), then it is NOT part of science, and cannot properly be called a theory. It will NOT be useful as a building block of technology or medicine, or anything else that we want science to do for us, and it doesn't belong in science at all. Consequently, it should NOT be taught in science class.

      •  dammit (none / 1)

        This has gone awry from the get-go, because a lot of people fractured what I wrote with comments which were not true and this whole exchange exhibits the disgrace of our westernized cultural conceit.

        Damn it, don't you realize what a huge perceptual leap any of us make, to behold "pure science" at all?

        Don't you realize what a rare privilege you have, to be literate in any language, let alone English?  To have this education?  And any remaining freedom to speak up?

        Most of the earth is semi-literate or illiterate.  They do NOT think the way people do after several generations' worth of western civilization behind them.  They CAN NOT conceive of physical phenomena such as a volcano just happening on its own.

        This is not to take either their side, or science's side.  It is just to say that most people in this stupidly urbanized, centralized society can NOT get into the heads of the majority of people on this earth.

        Damn it.  That is what I said, if you go back and look.  And I'm saying, not everywhere can you teach science the way we do in the US.  You probably couldn't get too far on certain Indian reservations, let alone a lot of schools.

        But westernized minds are so damned conceited... oh look anywhere.  We just think we're so much more wiser, or that the lives of our children are so much more precious than kids in the third world dying from CIA exercises to "protect US financial interests..." because we were brainwashed in the US educational system to think that's OK, that it all is building a better world.

        And nowhere is the brainwash of the US public school system more evident, than in this obtuse public argument about ID/evolution, as if these two ends on but one spoke of a wheel represented anything like a true axiom of public thinking.  This represents nothing but an anthill's worth of thought or sentiment about science, about learning, but I have to watch the Bible get strewn about in mockery and disgrace to service this narrow-minded, idiotic public brawl.  Well both sides are equally dumb, both equally brainwashed, to even enter a so-called debate like this and call one another opposites.

        Well when Bush and the four generations of mass murderers behind him in his family finally have their way with YOUR family, when their fascist machine utterly takes over this country, everyone can thank their damned westernized education - really a brainwashing here in the US - for the blindness that made it happen.

        •  I think you're right... (none / 0)


          I really don't understand what you're getting at.

          Are you claiming that the fight over teaching science in science class is what put bush in power? If so, what's your solution? Admit defeat, let them teach creationism? Will that remove bush from power? What exactly do you propose?

          As for the third world, well, I was under the impression that this debate was about the US. We certainly have the resources to teach science classes everywhere within our borders. Are you proposing that we don't teach science to native american tribes? This will better their welfare how exactly?

          I guess I'm just not sure what you're getting at. No disrespect intended. I think we agree on the definition of science (?), which is what I was most worried about, so now what?

          I'm not calling you an opposite, and I agree that it's a disgrace to throw about the bible as some do. The biggest argument against intelligent design is really the actual design of people. A first year engineer could do better. To embrace ID is to embrace the blasphemous notion that god is stupid, lazy, or incompetent. This does no favors for anybody, not education, and not religion.

          I guess I really don't know exactly what you're getting at. Sorry.

          •  adf (none / 0)

            My own error was to post such a long-winded question that it was mistaken for dogma... or whatever.

            My questions are beyond the scope of the core discussion, and I guess I can thank you and the others for a moment in the crucible, to further define my own questions, which is all I got.

            Because it is new for me to examine the teaching of science in this light.  I have already concluded that a lot of other US education is brainwash... particularly civic and historic issues.  In between being a child in school and now, I have had the opportunity to live among first generation literate people, which has shaped my thinking in ways I could not have intuited before.  And as someone who's not about to tell half the world they're deceived about some of their beliefs, now everything else I behold in the name of education has new angles to explore.

            And I probably had better do a lot of inquiry before joining in such a debate again, because I surely was misunderstood.  I have no policy to dictate.  I wanted to ask questions.

            I didn't mean to take it out on you.  It was very frustrating, to come to a discussion with wonder and go away with a flak jacket on.

    •  What IDC supporters seem to forget (none / 0)

      is that science is not trying to disprove the existence of [God] or that [God] is responsible for life and [the Universe].  Science is a gift to us from [God]; a tool for us to use to help us understand [His] work.  Therefore, no matter what religion you hold faith to (the reason certain words in my post are in [brackets] as not to offend anyone and to include everyone), you could easily interpret science as being an "extention" to any belief, going into detail, filling in the gaps not covered by religion.  For example:  The Bible clearly states that [God] created the [Heaven and the Earth].  It also clearly states that [He] did so in 6 days and then rested on the 7th day.  What it does not say is how [He] did it. What exacly did [God] do in these "6 days", in detail -- what tools did [He] use (if any).  Where did the materials come from?  Did [He] create all of these materials and if so, how did [He] do it?  How did these materials come together as to make the [Universe]?  Why did these materials come together the way they did?  What rules govern how the materials of the [Universe] react with each other? (Notice that I did not ask the question, "Why did [He] create the [Universe}?"  That question is (in my opinion) strictly a philosophical topic that is outside the realm of science and only religion may be able to address. However, if sometime in the future [mankind] does figure out that the [Universe] serves a greater purpose, science may then address that purpose.)

      This is where science comes in, to explain to the best of human ability how [He] did it. A precise, detailed explination of each and every event within these "6 days". Sometimes it takes a lot of observation, research, experiments and sometimes guessing through trial and error to figure out even the simplest parts of [His] work. But after years and with hundreds of brilliant minds (which the mind is another gift from [God]), bit-by-bit the picture emerges.  And just like a jigsaw puzzle picture of a sailboat -- at some point in the assembly of the puzzle you can tell it is a picture of a sailboat. If there is enough of the puzzle assembled, you can assume that the puzzle is no more than just a picture of a sailboat.  Now it is true that since the puzzle is not absolutely 100% complete you cannot be 100% absolutely positive that the puzzle is a picture of a sailboat, but it would be extremely unlikely that the puzzle is a picture of anything else and if all it took to satisfy your needs is to find out what the picture in the puzzle is, then it would be safe to stop assembly and conclude that the puzzle is a picture of a sailboat. The mystery would be over -- at least for now.  And that is the story of the Theory of Evolution.  Not all of the pieces have been discovered and the puzzle is far from being complete but enough of the pieces of the puzzle have been discovered and assembled as to clearly see that Evolution is the mechanism life uses to generate, enhance and produce new species. Of course science will eventually find and put all of the pieces of this jigsaw puzzle together so mankind will have a crystal-clear view of how it all works, and the discovery process of finding all of the pieces may take quite some time and a tremendous amount of effort but for now the overall knowledge of what the evolutionary picture consists of answers many questions in itself on how life on Earth functions.

      So if a class of students were to ask questions about scientific theories which parallel religious beliefs as well, the approach I would take (this is my opinion) is to explain to the students the science first, simply because science (even theories) are based on facts that can be tested, observed and reproduced.  Then I would explain that "some people have religious beliefs regarding these events (or processes) and may believe that [God] is responsible.  Which is OK -- science is not saying anything to the contrary of your religious explination.  Scientists are only explaining in a much more detailed fashion how it happened as viewed in a physical world.  Or more or less figuring out how [God] did it."

      And this explination would work well with just about any belief system, be it Pagan, Christian, tribal Pagan, old or new, ancient or modern.

      Howlin' at the World from the Left Side of the Planet

      by WolfmanSpike on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 01:54:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Believe in whatever you want (none / 0)

      Even if there is a great unseen force that is controling us and our environment.  Even if everything going on is directed by one great being who created us and setup an obscure and meaningless test to see if we get to go to heaven or are sent to hell.  Even with all those silly contentions being held as true, shouldn't we try to figure out what is really going on, the actual mechanics of things, rather than allow someone to make up a great story and tell us to take it on faith?  That's what I believe.

      This makes about as much sense as Mike Huckabee on mescaline. - Prodigal 2-6-2008

      by Tonedevil on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 03:59:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Science vs. Religion (none / 0)

      The topic of science vs. religion is, I think, an extremely important one. It seems to be related to this discussion because the Creationists (of which the IDers are a subset) put science in oppostion to religion.

      Now, it is true, as the Creationists claim, that many scientists are atheists. However, many of them, including perhaps the majority of the most famous ones, were Christians, notably Darwin, who originally intended to become a minister.

      Now, as you pointed out, Christianity has many unseen entities, the Trinity, God, Christ, the Holy Ghost, Satan, devils, demons, the Virgin Mary, saints, angels, cherubim, seraphim, etc. We might add to these folk beliefs such as ghosts, elves, and the like. Many of these were more common in the past. (I think it was T.S. Eliot who quoted an old person, and I paraphrase "I don't believe in ghosts or goblins or trolls or any of those things. But the fairies, the wee folk, well, that's just common sense") All these have a reality for those who believe in them and pray to them. Judaism and Mohammedanism have similar unseen pantheons, and in other cultures there are different ones.

      Now, the communists of the USSR, and the Chinese in imitation, did outlaw religion as superstition, a belief I personally agree with. However, they both eventually had to reverse course, and orthodox churches are filling up in the former Soviet republics, and traditional temples are being rebuilt in China.

      I think the power struggle between science and religion is a real one. I actually believe that religion has a lot to offer today. Although I grew up basically atheist, I have been going to religious services, enjoy the rituals, and find the myths of great emotional relevance, even thougb the beliefs are not believable and even repugnant.

      I remember Ghandi and his exhortation to preserve the traditions handed down to us, but to reject those which are found to be harmful. In his case, the prime tradition he opposed was the caste system. For our society, I think the corresponding harmful traditions are precisely the ones the conservative movement would like to preserve -- the growing American caste system, where men are better than women, whites are better than blacks, those in secular or religious authority are better than the common folk, and most importantly the rich are better than the poor.

      This is the tradition the Creationists and IDers are supporting, as tools of the conservative movement. This is not a positive movement. In particular it has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ (whether or not Christ was an historical person). (As an aside, Christ would never have told his followers, "Use specious arguments to mislead people about the truth of the history of the world.")

      Ultimately, the only answer I can come up with is education. If enough children are turned on by science, they will not be pulled away by these arguments. This is precisely why these people are targeting education. They can see that if children are tainted by the truth they will never come back to lies. So they are desparately using whatever they can think of to try to stop it.

      •  Perhaps many scientists are atheists because (none / 0)

        young people who find fulfillment from observing the material world and discovering how it works become scientists.

        Young people don't find that fulfilling become something else.

        I'm not dating Edwards anymore, but I still call out his name when I vote.

        by sagra on Mon Jan 09, 2006 at 10:24:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  The War On Stupidity (none / 0)

    I think that's an apporpriate term which perfectly encapsulates the fight against these mythologists yet belittles their position at the same time.

    I drink your Republicans. I drink them up!

    by Splicer on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:09:54 AM PDT

  •  Not Berkeley University (none / 1)

    Thanks for this great article.  What credentials does a law professor have to be pushing a "theory" about biology and evolution?

    Not to be much of a nitpicker, but he was a law professor at UC Berkeley, officially known University of California, Berkeley.  It's not "Berkeley University."  There is a diploma mill called "University of Berkley" but that's a different beast entirely.  I'm a UC employee (though I work at a different campus) and it bugs me when someone gets the name wrong.

    •  Thanks! fixed it n/t (none / 0)

      Read UTI, your free thought forum

      by DarkSyde on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:17:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  My eyebrows went up (none / 0)

        Eyebrows up when I read that a professor of law (emeritus, no less) from UC Berkley is the one responsible for the "intelligent design" movement.

        Why? Well, because it is yet another UC Berkley professor of law, one John Yoo, who is responsible for the Bush administration's post 9/11 thinking about torture, presidential perorgative and warrentless eavesdropping. He's the go-to guy for the admin's legal arguments. This WaPo has more about him:
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

        Surprising to me that the iconic university of supposedly leftist-leaning, liberal thought - that university most frequently reviled by the political right - is, as matter of fact, sponsoring the most rightwing of law professors. My faith in Boalt Hall is forever shattered.

        •  hoo boy (none / 0)

          I don't know how much truck you've had with the UC Berkeley law folks, but Boalt is a cancer comprised of the most hard-core of the right wing in an otherwise healthy body.  At least it was back in the early nineties.  I'd sure love to know how it got that way; Berkeley is not the most hospitable environment to wingnuts :)

          They're calling our bluff and all we're holding is a Pelosi and a Hoyer.

          by arbiter on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 10:47:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  and it's not just this guy (none / 0)

            John "love that torture" Yoo is also from U.C. Berkeley Law School (aka Boalt Hall).  

            Was Boalt ever liberal?  I went to Cal as an undergraduate in the late 70s but I never paid much attention to the political bent of the law professors.  (I assume that the economics department is as liberal as ever? Or have they gone over to the dark side too?)

    •  and I'd add to this (none / 1)

      that most religious folks aren't even qualified to talk about religion, much less the Bible. As a former Old Testament prof of mine used to put it:

      "You'd scream 'incompetence!' if your doctor only had a second-grade education in medicine or if your lawyer had only a second-grade education in law. So why is it 95% of the Christians in America are content with leaders who have a second-grade, Sunday School understanding of biblical literature?"

      In other words, unless you have a Ph.D. in biology, don't pass yourself as an expert on evolution. And unless you have a Ph.D. in Biblical literature from a legitimate graduate program, don't pass yourself off as an expert on the Bible.

      •  "individual interpretaton" (none / 1)

        I think part of the reason is that some churches teach "individual interpretation" of the Bible; that is, if the Bible is read with the proper amount of reverence, then their god will speak to them directly.

        Interestingly enough, the inability to properly understand the Bible in context is one of the reasons the Catholic church did NOT push for their members to read the Bible for many, many years; it has been called a "difficult and dumb" book by one of its theologians ("dumb" as in "speechless").

        When liberals saw 9-11, we wondered how we could make the country safe. When conservatives saw 9-11, they saw an investment opportunity.

        by onanyes on Sat Jan 07, 2006 at 05:52:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]