Daily Kos

Why Rove is effective

Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 12:46:23 PM PDT

There is a terrific article at The Times online that provides some insight into the thought process of people who follow shrub no matter what.  The article claims that humans are inclined toward the supernatural and cites examples that strike close to home.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/...

More Below

The human brain is hard-wired to be susceptible to supernatural beliefs as a result of tens of thousands of years of evolution, a British psychologist said today.

Religion and other forms of magical thinking continue to thrive, in spite of a lack of evidence and the advance of science, because people are naturally biased to accept a role for the irrational in their daily lives, according to Bruce Hood, Professor of Experimental Psychology at the University of Bristol.

This evolved credulity suggests that it will be impossible to root out belief in ideas such as creationism and paranormal phenomena, even though they have been refuted by evidence and are held as a matter of faith alone.

People ultimately believe in them for the same reasons as they attach sentimental value to inanimate objects like wedding rings or teddy bears, and recoil from artefacts linked to evil, as if they are pervaded by a physical "essence".

Even the most rational people behave in these irrational ways, and supernatural beliefs are part of the same continuum, Professor Hood told the British Association Festival of Science in Norwich today.

To demonstrate, he asked members of his audience if they were prepared to put on an old-fashioned blue cardigan in return for a £10 reward, and had no shortage of volunteers.

He then informed them that the cardigan used to belong to Fred West, the mass murderer.

"Most hands went down," he said.

After reading the entire article I am able to understand how so many people can be duped so often.
Rove and his cabal clearly know this and exploit it well.

Update: I made this comment in the thread below,but I think it needs to be here too. After the Columbine tragedy saw a kid who was in the school during the shooting, being interviewed, and he made a comment that struck me and has made me curious about how people think. He said words to the effect that he "tried as hard as he could in his mind to make it not real" as the events were unfolding. I remember thinking that way as a kid but thought that I had grown out of it. This article posits that people are naturally inclined to use mystical thinking. I see evidence of that way of thinking in sports fans, who actually believe that their cheering has some impact on the outcome of the match . I see evidence in people who firmly believe that their prayers actually have some impact on the events in other's lives. I just think that Rove and his group have understood and tapped into that way of thinking to effectively sell their version of the world, even though the facts clearly refute their claims. We're banging our heads trying to figure out how to drive reality home to people. Karl understands that reality is the wrong, and unnecessary, message.

Tags: George W. Bush, shrub, lies, truth, religion, thinking, understanding, brain (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 44 comments

  •  hmmm (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wystler, Clem Yeobright, beaukitty

    So you're saying Democrats need to borrow the blue cardigan and give it to Bush as a gift in the hopes that he wears it on the campaign trail?  :-)

    •  Rove's hate tactics put NC-05 back in play (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      markymarx

      With today's endorsement of the Democratic candidate, Roger Sharpe, by the red-leaning Winston-Salem Journal, it shows that Rove's tactics are getting old. Rep Foxx (R) has conducted herself with the worst of Rove's plays.

      The Journal said it best...

      Foxx has not only swallowed the party line uncritically; she has also helped to spread it. She spouted the Bush administration's rosy talking points on Iraq even as military commanders were painting a grimmer picture. Given the opportunity to speak out against the House leadership for its woefully inadequate response to the Mark Foley e-mails to House pages, she declined.

      More on the endorsement

  •  Politics is like sex and religion. (5+ / 0-)

    Not a lot of rationality around. How else to explain how many poor and middle class Americans vote for the Republican party which has as one of it's major goals operating against the interests of those classes.  

    •  Values (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      beaukitty

      People with an IQ of 75 are Republicans, and Democrats. People with an IQ of 175 are Democrats and Republicans.

      When you get really down to it, the rationality slips away. The entire argument is one of values, and using your intellect to justify those values, or to deny reality that doesn't fit your previous notions.

      Tax cuts for the rich. They either work or they don't, but for many it's they want them to work, or don't. Values. You could come up with charts, and powerpoint presentations, and nobel prize winners and it still wouldn't change most minds. It's about values.

      I am a values voter, that is why I vote democratic.

      Completely waste your time at NewPairODimes Now with baby pictures.

      by trifecta on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:56:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Rove has the balls to push big lies. (6+ / 0-)

    This explains why they're believed.

    •  AND has no qualms about LYING (6+ / 0-)

      Amazing what you can accomplish when not limited by the bounds of "ethics and morals" most people feel....

      Want to win a race for a family court judge - start a whispering campaign that he's a pedophile.... never mind if there's NO evidence, NOT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST INDICATION...... nevermind that the man has been dedicaded to children's causes - throw mud  (note - the judge won THAT campaign but stepped down and would not run the next time around, unwilling to go through the same mud fest)

      But if there ARE serious indications someone in power is abusing that authority and pursuing underage youth, and you NEED that pewrson to keep your party's majority.... PROTECT AND COVER-UP .... strong arm the person into running for re-election to keep the incumbent advantage  (oops that blew up this time)

      two sides of the Rove coin - a family court judge in Kentucky (?) early in Rove's career.... and Foley.....

      a Goebbels for the 21st century........

      Our founding fathers would've tarred and feathered someone this blatant in his lies

    •  And a lack (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      beaukitty, St Louis Woman

      of morals and ethics!

      Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

      by madgranny on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:30:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Dr. Herr Joseph Goebbels to a T: (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Halcyon, beaukitty

        On 16 February 1943, following the surrender of the 6th Army at Stalingrad he addressed a picked audience at Sportpalastrede, the Sports Palace in Berlin. Under a huge banner that read "Totaler Krieg fur Zester Krieg" [total war for shortest war],he gave a powerful speech, carrying his audience with him as they pledged themselves for combat and sacrifice.
         Goebbels hurled 10 questions at the fanaticised crowd, to which they thundered back the answer JA!
      The last question the Propaganda Minister posed was
      "Do you want total war?" JA! They roared. Goebbels then said, "Let our war cry be: Now to the people
      rise up and the storm break loose!" Remember now Hitler's 6th Army had just surrendered at Stalingrad, the Fuhrer snapping at his [stunned]
      general staff: "THE DUTY OF THE MEN AT STALINGRAD IS TO BE DEAD." He like Bush, and company refused to change course in the face of certain defeat.

      "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

      by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 02:22:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The "rationalist" fallacy (4+ / 0-)

    says that if you just give people the facts, they will draw the correct conclusions.

    Democrats have behaved this way for far too long.

    Rove knows it don't work that way. Hence all the hubub about "values voters." Essentially, everybody is a "values voter."

    What is valued is practiced. What is not valued is not practiced. -- Plato

    by RobLewis on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 12:54:45 PM PDT

    •  So we have to (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      madhaus, Halcyon, 4Freedom

      come up with our values voter storyline to appeal to the mystical thinkers in the crowd.
      Now that I know that those types really exist,it gives me something to think about.

      Republicans only care about republicans. Democrats care about the Republic.

      by beaukitty on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:01:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So what's the answer? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jerome a Paris, beaukitty

      Do we all just decide to cover up truth and push lies? The human species, if it hopes to survive, must find a way to evolve away from fantasy and start facing facts. (Bunch of chickenshits.)

      It's up to us to keep truth as the goal and bring others along. If we fail, then the species is doomed IMO. It's fear and a basic unhappiness that keeps people from seeing things as they are--and from accepting that some things are unknowable in our present state.

      (¯`*._(¯`*._(-IMPEACH-)_.*´¯)_.*´¯) It's not too late!

      by nehark on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:07:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Absolutely (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        nehark

        stay with truth and honesty. Just find a way to reach those mystical thinkers with a message that moves them.
        Data is not the way to go with these folks.

        Republicans only care about republicans. Democrats care about the Republic.

        by beaukitty on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:13:52 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But... (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          nehark, beaukitty

          What is, I think, very important to get through to the non-critical thinkers is to find a way to put the message in very clear terms.  Slogans have a place in communication.

          Don't ramble on and on about the need for programs that are designed to lift the poor from poverty.  Come up with something like "Helping people find their bootstraps".

          Worked for Regan.  

          Kerry failed largely because he was incapable.

          Unusual travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God. - Kurt Vonnegut

          by BobTrips on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:51:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Politics is like anything else ... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty

    Sex, religion, baseball.

    People-brains evolved according to the accumulation of:

    1.  Chance.
    1.  What worked at a given moment in terms of survival.

    In the real-world, sentiment is a basis for pro-social behavior.  Rationalization is a basis for hope or optimism which is a basis for persistance, even when things look bad.  Using cues (heuristics) as cognitive short-cuts allows for a greater amount of information to be processed with reasonable results.

    This is what framing is all about.

    Presenting ourselves in word and deed as trustworthy and able to govern.

  •  interesting (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty

    Some nice points in understanding Rove and people in general.

    " Spock arguing with Kick "

    Spock's logic, while flawless, did not always yield the best solution.  I think you are pointing out that people want to believe in something.  Even if it runs contrary to logic.

    I wish I could up with the winning argument for someone that ultimately only has faith in or a favorable gut reaction to a leader or party that they support.

    There is no 'off' position on the genius switch. - David Letterman

    by willy be frantic on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 12:57:05 PM PDT

  •  It's also called (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jerome a Paris, jfadden, beaukitty

    fuzzy logic or, my favorite, "low-information rationality."

  •  it's "CITES examples" (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty

    As for the rest, any demagogue worth his salt knows that nothing rallies people as effectively as fear and hate. Rove always goes straight for the lizard brain.

    •  You'd think that I would know that (0+ / 0-)

      Thanks...I'll fix it

      Republicans only care about republicans. Democrats care about the Republic.

      by beaukitty on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:10:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Rove's strategy appeals to those that WANT (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        beaukitty, jhop7, ImpeachKingBushII

        to follow, those that WANT to "belong", those that WANT to be part of something "larger".....

        Same thing that lets ANY totalitarian movement start up..... some people WANT to feel that they are part of something "larger" - there's a great quote from an Italian ex_Fascist to this effect....

        paraphrasing .... somehting like - "I never felt more important, more alive and motivated, like I was part of something that mattered....I was part fo something larger than I could ever be by myself...."

        Now..... most people live vicariously through a local sports team, being "winners" in the world of baseball or football.... and that's fine... but notch that emotion up a few levels and turn it into somethign that you can harness for politics....

        read some of the vitriol on political blogs - right AND left - a geometric increase in the "My team is great, yours sucks" simplistic attitudes where it's all about "winning"  and you want YOUR team to WIN.....

        screw facts, screw what's rational or logical, screw what's needed.....

  •  Psychologically, all decisions include (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jfadden, beaukitty

    an idea or cognition and a "feeling" about that idea.  The feeling is often just a sense of comfort or discomfort.  Even "objective" data (the sky is blue, the stove is hot) involves a smidgin of "subjectivity" (I know I'm not crazy, no I'm not dreaming, all the alternative explanations are a waste of time).

    My mother in law will listen to an Obama speech (and learn more about him) because, in her words,

        He's got an honest face and a name that's fun to
        say.

    Being attractive, and not repulsive, in some way, gets your foot in the door.  There are gazillions of ways to be attractive.  Dr. Dean does it with unbridled enthusiasm and a dozen other great qualities.  Ford does it with sticking it to the Republicans in their own backyard.  And so on.

    •  What I don't understand. (4+ / 0-)

      My opposition to Bush is based primarily on a reasoned analysis of his disastrous policies. But, leaving that aside, were I to make the decision based on my gut, I would still oppose him.

      My instinctive, purely gut reaction, to all of the current Republican leaders is that they are obvious frauds.  You can just see it in their faces.  Bush. Cheney.  Santorum.  Even if I didn't know a thing about their policies, they have, to me, the manner of crooks, frauds and all around assholes.

      Why doesn't everyone see it?  It reminds me of Jimmie Swaggart. All those fundamentalists were fooled by him, but to me he could not have been more obvious if he wore a sign saying "liar".

      Are these people just gulible for some reason? Is it that assholes just vote for assholes?  Maybe it's that they seek an abusive type of leader, just like some people are drawn to abusive partners.

      That someone might have "conservative" beliefs is understandable.  Wrong, but understandable.  What amazes me is the someone could listen to Bush, Cheney, Rice, Santorum, Allen and so on, and not immediately realize that they are lying scoundrels.

  •  Very interesting article thanks for the link.. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty

    but your idea about Rove and his using the hard wired religious  sense in people needs a little more development.. I don't disagree... it just needs some fleshing out...

    "Let us not be conservative with compassion. Be generous with compassion."

    by ilyana on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:06:49 PM PDT

    •  After the Columbine tragedy (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      PBen, ilyana, jhop7

      I saw a kid who was in the school during the shooting, being interviewed, and he made a comment that struck me and has made me curious about how people think. He said words to the effect that he "tried as hard as he could in his mind to make it not real" as the events were unfolding.

      I remember thinking that way as a kid but thought that I had grown out of it.

      This article posits that people are naturally inclined to use mystical thinking.

      I see evidence of that way of thinking in sports fans, who actually believe that their cheering has some impact on the outcome of the match
      .
      I see evidence in people who firmly believe that their prayers actually have some impact on the events in other's lives.

      I just think that Rove and his group have understood and tapped into that way of thinking to effectively sell their version of the world, even though the facts clearly refute their claims.

      Republicans only care about republicans. Democrats care about the Republic.

      by beaukitty on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:26:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  But don't let yourself forget... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      beaukitty

      That not all these "hard wired religious" types are on the right.  

      The left has a share as well.  Just look at the people who believe in magic, for example, unproven alternative healing practices.

      Unusual travel suggestions are dancing lessons from God. - Kurt Vonnegut

      by BobTrips on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:55:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hence the use of (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty, madgranny

    their neurolinguistic programming.  They are experts at using language to manipulate but not governing. At some point, a majority of the public survival instinct has go to set in and desire some real leaders.

  •  Can't Ignore the Money (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty, madgranny

    If Dems really controlled the media the way Republicans like to argue we do, there would never be a shortage of stories debunking Republican talking points.

    Instead, even in fact-based articles that directly refute those talking points - we're usually treated to one or another "expert" getting to interject an often totally out-of-touch or non-factual assertion that comes straight from the Vigurie/Rove/Dopson playlist.

    It's tough to fight that - particularly when the right wing has it's own media outlets that will never present a countervailing opinion without truncating or ridiculing it.

    •  It's not defacto "control" (0+ / 0-)

      but a fear that government can - and will - use regulatory power to "get even" ........

      AND business will - consciously (FOX) or unconsciously (others) - try to curry favor .......

      reporters knowing that they will be "shut out"  are not likely to be dogged in criticism of those they depend on

      With the wind changing, you're seeing more "pro-Democrat" coverage.....  hedging bets I guess.

      •  That's precisely why I refer to them as: (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        madgranny

           THE VICHY PRESS and the VICHY CONGRESS!
        Much like the Petain or Vichy government that collaborated with the Nazis [France], there are those factions more interested in preserving their status and influence-and heads-than those who put loyalty to country and our Constitution above loyalty to Herr Bush.
           Trust me, I take very meticulous notes and [until they put me in a pain amplifier] I will continue to hold them all responsible and accountable to the people.

        "Great men do not commit murder. Great nations do not start wars". William Jennings Bryan

        by ImpeachKingBushII on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 02:40:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  accepting that argument (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty, chicago jeff
    what are things that the Democrats could do that play upon the same tendencies?

    Suggest that American prestige is endangered with republicans in power? That is perhaps a rational assessment, but it also appeals to national pride.

    I don't deny that the irrational has some command, but I think we have more recently been a bit more browbeaten into thinking it will always win over something more positive. Could this nation have been formed if it had not been for an inspiration idea that people could rules themselves, without the requirement of kings?

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." is a statement of belief extraordinaire, it is not a mathematical equation.

    Rome wasn't burnt in a day.

    by Miss Devore on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:14:16 PM PDT

  •  Seems like a narrow definition of rationality (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    johnnygunn, elie, beaukitty

    in this article.

    Ultimately belief in the possibility of knowledge (and hence science) is irrational using this definition. How can I know that there is an external world independent of my mind, and if there is one: how can I ever know if my mind and our language represents it correctly? Seems like you have to take a lot of things on faith here.

    Conservatism = greed, hate, fear and ignorance

    by Joe B on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:27:11 PM PDT

  •  But Beau - (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jhop7

    The belief - and it is a belief - that the rational human mind can conquor all before it - has the same fundamental elements of hubris as does unthinking religiousity.  On the one hand, there is the claim that there is no evidence of the divine, but on the other hand, there is no evidence to prove that there is not.  It depends on what your definition of "is" is.  Given human history, I prefer to believe that we're not the be-all and end-all.

  •  And there's the Fear (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    wystler, beaukitty

    This isn't mine and I can't remember where I got it, but:

    For 20 years, researchers have been exploring how people manage the fear engendered by intimations of mortality. Reminded of the inevitability of their own death (which happens to a lesser degree by merely walking past a funeral parlor), people try to quench or at least manage the resulting "existential terror" in several ways. They become more certain of their worldview or faith. They conform more closely to the norms of their society. They show greater reverence for symbols of their society, such as flags and crucifixes.

    All of these make people feel more secure and, crucially, a part of something larger -- something that will outlive them.

    Building up your own worldview requires disparaging (even unconsciously) that of others. If beliefs that contradict yours have any worth, then by definition they call into question the absolute validity of your own. The result is stronger feelings of hostility toward those with different values and beliefs.

    This "worldview defense," says psychology researcher Sheldon Solomon of Skidmore College, "reduces the terror that reminders of your own death bring." These results have been replicated in some 300 lab experiments, including in cultures with very different ideas about an afterlife.

    Which brings us back to the effect on voters of a terrorist attack and its brutal reminders of mortality. Although some voters would feel betrayed by incumbents who failed to protect them, researchers say, these days that trend would more likely be swamped by a surge toward candidates perceived as hawks on national security.

    "We feel that unconscious thoughts about death do influence people's voting decisions, especially for folks who are not strongly committed to a candidate," says Prof. Solomon, expressing a consensus of those who have studied terrorism and voting behavior.

    The link between thoughts of death and actual behavior shows up not only in labs but in the real world, too. After 9/11, Americans sprouted flag lapel pins. Patriotism and approval of the president soared. Tolerance for dissent plummeted. ("All Americans...need to watch what they say," warned a White House spokesman.)

    Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

    by madgranny on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 01:34:10 PM PDT

  •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    beaukitty

    An example.

    I love my country.
    Sometimes I'm embarrassed by things we do but
    when I talk with my coworkers who have come here from Nigeria or the Phillipines or Russia
    they say

    This is still the land of opportunity.
    This is still where people come to fulfill their dreams.
    This is still a country capable of great things.

    I love my country.
    And the idea of people working together to make a more humane way of life.

    I love my country.
    And the idea that we can work together to get rid of the "leaders" who misused their power and betrayed our trust.

    I love my country that is home to people like
    Obama and Edwards and Dr. Dean and Harold Ford Jr.
    (you don't think getting a prejudiced electorate to elect him to the Senate is something?!)
    and Tester and Sanders ...

  •  I think people believe in God (0+ / 0-)

    mostly because they want to. It not only injects reason and purpose into their otherwise meaningless existences (not too many existentialists, are there?) but promises a reward for a life honorably conducted, as opposed to a place as cold and indifferent as the world is.

  •  I found (0+ / 0-)

    a good write-up on Professor Solomon...not exactly what I read, but good. It's at
    www.esi-topics.com/terrorism/interviews/SheldonSolomon.html
    (sorry, I'm a newbie and don't know how to do these link things).

    Solomon also co-authored a book called "In the Wake of 9/11" that includes these theories. Amazon rates it 4 stars and the reviews are pretty good.

    Barack Obama - I'll never see the threat of terrorism as a way to scare up votes, it's a threat that should rally this country against our common enemies

    by madgranny on Sun Oct 15, 2006 at 02:56:06 PM PDT

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