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Crossposted at MY LEFT WING as Question of the Day


I just spent over half an hour responding to an email from the Green candidate I met last weekend, Byron DeLear.

As I wrote, I found myself coming to an inescapable and nauseating realisation: I am a coward.

I am a coward. What a wretched thing to understand about oneself. Surely there can be no more shameful character defect to discover in oneself?

You may wonder how I came to see myself a coward. Well, it started as I wrote to Mr. DeLear my reasons for having concluded -- and posted said conclusion in a diary (here and at Daily Kos) -- that I preferred to vote for Howard Berman, the longtime incumbent Democrat in my district, than for Mr. DeLear, whose name on the ballot sits beneath the aegis of the Green Party.

I realised that I was relieved to have come to the conclusion I had, because if I had honestly decided to vote for Mr. DeLear, I might not have had the wherewithal to post that in a diary at Daily Kos. That is to say, I would have been AFRAID to post it at Daily Kos.

Which means I am a coward. I fear the hostility, verbal abuse, loss of respect and, most shameful and embarrassing, the loss of popularity I would sustain if I posted a diary at Daily Kos endorsing anyone but a Democrat in any campaign.

I fear being marginalised, should I come to the conclusion that the Democratic Party is unacceptable to me. I fear the enmity of people I once called allies and compatriots -- for it would surely come, if I abandoned the Party. I've tasted the wrath of the mob that patrols the diaries at Daily Kos -- and despite my bravado and defiance, I will admit to you here and now, it hurt.

They did their work well -- for surely, if the Great and Powerful MSOC is not immune to the viciousness of the "Democrats at DKos: Love Us or Leave Us" (aka SYFPH) mentality that so often dominates discussions of diaries even HINTING at dissent from that stance, then why on earth would a newcomer or lurker want to open himself up to that sort of treatment at the hands of the Mob?

The vast majority of DKos members are NOT like that, fortunately. But unfortunately, as is so often the case when it comes to this sort of community dynamic, there IS a small contingent of people who seem to view it as their primary role on earth to quash the voices of dissent, regardless of the merits of the arguments. Admittedly, oftentimes the "dissent" is merely a badly written argument without merit at all; but inarguably, there HAVE been cases of plausible, arguable dissent -- and many of them can be found in the elephants' graveyard of diaries deleted by their cowed and harangued authors.

(Full disclosure: I've repeated this many times in the past year or so, but it certainly bears saying here... I was once one of the more vocal, vicious and powerful advocates of SYFPH. I am ashamed of it, and have apologised many times. I rationalised it with the fact that I believed it was the most important Presidential election in history, and that the time for negativity toward John Kerry had passed once he won the primary. I am very embarrassed by my past behaviour in this regard, and apologise once again to anyone whom I may have hurt in my zeal to get Kerry elected at all costs.

I also apologise to the Nader voters I vilified and excoriated; I still disagree with the decision to vote third party in this two-party political system that makes any liberal third party vote a de facto vote for the Republican... but I had no business -- as NO ONE has any business -- haranguing people for their political views and decisions, howevere much I disagree with them. Frankly, I've treated Republicans with more kindness than I had for Nader voters -- and again, I am heartily ashamed of that behaviour. I hope to be forgiven.)

We are fragile beings. Some may scoff at the importance many of us place on our participation in online communities, but the fact is that it IS important, and these ARE relationships, albeit tenuous and intangible. Once having established oneself as a member of a community, the influence of its collective opinion is strong and oftentimes irresistible.

The threat of the loss of love is terrifying to most people -- as it is to me. It is a far more effective tool than torture, in fact. It is exactly how cults maintain their hold on their membership.

(I am NOT calling Daily Kos a cult, nor MLW or any other community. Please, if that is the conclusion you've reached, stop right now and read these words again: I am using this comparison very loosely and am NOT calling Daily Kos a cult. So call off the dogs, I've already told you I'm afraid of them.)

See what I mean?  I am a coward. I've debated crossposting this to Daily Kos and frankly, I am AFRAID to do it. I watched yesterday as a well-meaning Democrat posted a diary about his misgivings regarding Hillary Clinton and his decision not to vote for her (in the upcoming election, mind you -- NOT in 2008) -- and the swiftness with which the mob descended on this fellow was surreal and terrifying. It took less than 5 minutes for over 35 comments to appear, most of them demanding the guy shut his fucking piehole, delete the diary and say ten hail marys for DARING to state aloud his intent to decline to support a Democrat. Needless to say, he deleted that diary. Dissent silenced.

So, I was utterly dismayed this morning to find myself realising that I was RELIEVED to have come to the conclusion that I preferred to vote for the incumbent Democrat than for the Green candidate I'd met and admired over te past weekend. I was relieved because I felt spared the agony of having to decide whether to post a diary about it. Imagine it -- it isn't hard to do, it's happened so many times, too many times to count -- imagine what would happen if I were to post a diary at Daily Kos, endorsing a GREEN PARTY candidate over an incumbent DEMOCRAT.

Not a pretty picture, eh?

So here's my question:

Have you ever consciously decided not to post your honest opinion about something--  here at Daily Kos or anywhere else --because you didn't want to deal with the negative reaction and possible hostility or abuse you imagined might be the response from the community or some of its most vocal or powerful members?


Originally posted to My Left Wing on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:48 AM PDT.

Poll

Ever NOT posted something because you were afraid of the reaction?

68%301 votes
22%101 votes
2%11 votes
2%12 votes
3%15 votes

| 440 votes | Vote | Results

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Comment Preferences

    •  As I recall... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma

      ...the local tradition of posting recipes to troll diaries really got going when you posted a couple to diaries that weren't really by trolls. ;)

      •  Your recall isn't all that accurate. (9+ / 0-)

        I'd love to claim credit for the recipes-as-response-to-troll-diaries tradition, but as I recall (and, of course, my OWN recall may be faulty here, it was all so long ago), TealVeal was the one who came up with that brilliant idea. As for posting recipes in a NON-troll diary -- well, I'd certainly rather be guilty of THAT than of harassing and namecalling and vicious verbal attacks, you know?

        •  I'm pretty sure I'm right about this (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wu ming, buhdydharma
        •  Posting recipes is passive-aggressive (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dkmich, Josh or Con or Both

          and traumatizing. I've spoken to my therapist at length about recipes which were inflicted on me. I can't eat those dishes now, without thinking of the passive-aggressive hostility of some Dkos hallway marm.

          SNARK!

          DailyKos dissident-flamers are the least of my worries.

          •  I do sympathize with MSOC, though. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            chiniqua

            She's right. People don't have to be so mean about quashing dissent. People can be firm without being mean. But people get hot-headed when discussing politics.

            •  A favorite of mine from an AAer (0+ / 0-)

              "Say what you mean, and mean what you say - but don't say it mean."

              And, methinks I'm a MUCH bigger 'coward' than MSOC.

              I am a coward. What a wretched thing to understand about oneself. Surely there can be no more shameful character defect to discover in oneself?

              I disagree. Hypocrisy. ANY DAY.

              MSOC - I don't see this as cowardice. You know the site rules. You're not willing to pay the consequences of breaking those rules. That's not cowardice, that's maturity (and I didn't intend that in a derogatory fashion). You know there are plenty of sites where writing such a piece would be fine. You also know how 'important' those sites rank in the blogosphere relative to dKos or MLW.

              We've been warned of the dangers of political parties since George Washington. At the moment, I'm with THAT George W. In fact, the more time goes by, the more I'm "with" the founding fathers, period, and the less with our current 'leadership'.

              Why do we get to pick Miss America from 50 contestants, but the 'leader of the free world' from only 2?

              cdn

              Retiring Richard Pombo, one post at a time. ;)

              by grndrush on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 04:33:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  I've noticed this dynamic, myself (12+ / 0-)

      and have actively tried to mitigate it on occasion.

      See this thread.

      I think I've only ever used the trollrate 3 or 4 times over the past few years, while TU.

      Personally I think it's pointless and counterproductive to, in that hypothetical situation you describe, stifle dissent, and ignore debate.

      I'll gladly cop to voting Green, and consider myself not so much a Democrat, but an Independent that presently lines up with the Progressive positions.

      I really don't think you're a coward MS, more apprehensive and sensitive to criticism. Who isn't really? While you may self-censor, when push comes to shove, it's seemed to me you stick it out there anyway.

      Keep your chin up!

      Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

      by Erevann on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:01:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've used it (4+ / 0-)

        when the name calling starts.

        Other then that, I let folks talk.

      •  I usually troll rate when the poster (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        srkp23, JPete, Erevann

        is attempting to make someone feel stupid ugly and awful because it's bullying; it isn't dissent. the worst offenders are those who bloody any new diarist who doesn't have a complete grip on Kos standards. There are a couple of regular posters who look for things to bash in first diaries and they are mean as hell.

        I've also troll rated when someone is clearly enjoying hijacking a diary. Those are my two top reasons for troll rating and I only do it about once every month and a half or so.

        A couple of days ago, when some poor fool made a completely sexist remark, I called him an ass and told him what I thought of his remark but I didn't troll rate him because he wasn't bullying. He was just a blithering idiot.

        Click here to educate New York voters. John Sweeney

        by tikkun on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:33:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Huh never even crossed my mind. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Erevann, Josh or Con or Both

        Personally I don't give a damn what people around here think about me. I don't mean that in a hostile sense... but well when I close FF you all go away, so who cares.

        I stood in the middle of the storm in the DP World blowup and told everyone I could respond to that they were wrong and it really wasn't a big deal at all (though I didn't mind it hurt Bush.) I got blasted quite a bit by the well intentioned but honestly ignorant majority of folks around here. Which is fine I mean most people don't have a working knowledge of the maritime transportation industry, and I can understand how selling off "ports" sounded scary. People gave me hell for it. But again, who cares, as long as troll rating wars don't break out then feel free to fire away.

        Dkos is an amazing source of info and debate for me. Even more its potential to change the game and allow me to be part of that process is amazing. But community... I dunno I think people throw that word around too easily. I don't really care about any of the people here more than my general inclination to hope the least amount of harm comes to all people. Mary Scott and Meteor Blades and large group of others are amazing writers and I love reading their stuff... But actual emotional attachement that results in fear of rejection...

        Maybe I'm just wired differently but that honestly sounds a bit bizarre to me.

        As for SYFPH its just an unfortunate byproduct of concern trolls and the general need to stamp them out. I agree that people should be free to voice legitimate concerns whenever they want. But you've kind of got to accept that a lot of people may hate you for it.

        But again, who care, turns of the browser and go have Ben and Jerries, not like you really know these people.

        To lodge all power in one party and keep it there is to insure bad government and the sure and gradual deterioration of the public morals. - Mark Twain

        by Windowdog on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:06:05 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's certainly a very safe perspective to take. (0+ / 0-)

          Couldn't agree more with being conservative with your emotional investiture. The DOES seem to run wild around here on occasion.

          However I've met quite a few of the regulars here on DKos, at least the WA state folks, and they AREN'T going away and will usually be around during any political events I'm likely to be involved in. Just to play a little "Devil's Advocate" here. :)

          My advice to those I point in this direction is two-fold:

          Have your facts straight and easily referenced.

          and

          Have a thick-skin, to weather the rough and tumble debate.

          Oddly enough, I don't seem to have invoked anyone's ire around here myself. How strange! :)

          Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

          by Erevann on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:27:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed it is a strong local networking tool (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Erevann, Josh or Con or Both

            If you want it to be, and obviously relationships can spring up from shared interests with specific users. Any meeting place like this is a powerful incubator for social networks that exist as a subset of the whole.

            But as for the screaming horde... I mean do you really care what the guy who posts "BREAKING RUMSFELD NOT DOING A GOOD JOB IN IRAQ!!! MY GRANDMOTHER SAYS SO!!!" diaries really cares about you in reply post?

            I love the fact that DKos exists and I'm a proud member, but you folks aren't my family or my community. Which is good, I'd never be so consistently critical of my neighbors.

            To lodge all power in one party and keep it there is to insure bad government and the sure and gradual deterioration of the public morals. - Mark Twain

            by Windowdog on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:40:33 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  True... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              srkp23, Josh or Con or Both

              this is an interesting phenomenon of the whole online experience.

              The relative anonymity of online communication, insulates us from much of the consequences of antagonizing those with disagreements. Without having to look your opponent in the eye and accept the public consequences of your attitude, there's little incentive to consider your attitude when responding.

              Lack of non-verbal queues is another handicap and I've seen it spark many misunderstandings in this medium.

              I'm not sure I completely agree that this is not our community or family. I, for one, consider the folks on this site to VERY much be a family to me. We're brought together here by common concern, and like any other family, conflict can get very hot and personal. But just the same, a certain amount of emotional detachement is CRUCIAL to maintaining ones equilibrium. Sanity even! ;)

              With so many people around here, you certainly have to expect a lot of reactionary mouthing off. I tend to just be amused by it and move on.

              So, glad to have ya around brother!

              Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

              by Erevann on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:53:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Well, *I* still approve of you. (15+ / 0-)
      So SYFPH. :)

      If you're not on the crazy wild-eyed zealot bandwagon, then you're with the terrorists. :)

      by cskendrick on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:01:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  YEAH! What he said! :) n/t (4+ / 0-)

        Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

        by Erevann on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:02:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yes... there's another acronym: YBTHOY (10+ / 0-)

        You're Being Too Hard On Yourself

        Life is too short to worry too much about other people's opinions. On the other hand, Maryscott, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT about the importance of the need to be loved and approved of.

        This is not only how cults control people, but it is a prime motivator in all of our lives. It is rooted in the developmental fact that we all learned that approval=love early in life. (And this is not necessarily bad, but a by-product that parents MUST use withdrawal of approval/giving approval as a control mechanism for very young children, because they are not susceptible enough to reasoning at a very young age, and otherwise would endanger themselves.)

        Political behavior, of course, happens at a much higher level than what goes on in the nursery, but you are right that much the same kind of motivators and fears are at work in the background. I'm glad you brought it up here, and hope it leads to a good discussion thread.

        Never In Our Names

        "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth."

        by Valtin on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:46:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I feel the need... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RFK Lives, Alegre, Valtin

          to caveat one point you made there.

          Political behavior, of course, happens at a much higher level than what goes on in the nursery, but you are right that much the same kind of motivators and fears are at work in the background.

          Political behaviour OUGHT TO happen at a much higher level. We both know THAT isn't the case, at least from one side of the aisle.

          As we're seeing every single day of this cycle, and the last 3 elections, the use of this basic good/bad, love/hate, black/white tactic has been used to quite noticable effect.

          The public seems to have built up quite a tolerance for it at this point, hence the blowback on some of their more repugnant ads. But the base emotional mechinism isn't just background, it's front and center in the conservative strategy. Keith was quite agressive in pointing this out in his last fusillade against the R machine.

          All your other points seem spot on to me though! :)

          Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

          by Erevann on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:32:09 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Jesus Maryscott (13+ / 0-)

      I can't believe you just called DKOS a cult.

      :-)

    •  I don't think I have been afraid (17+ / 0-)

      at least since I stopped becoming afraid of posting here in general....

      But your points are good ones.  There is a lynchmob mentality at times.  I usually stay away from those fights.

      If I haven't posted something I had an opinion on (at least in a diary), it wasn't b/c I was afraid, it was b/c I didn't think I had enough "diary-worthy" material.

      But in a comment, I usually post how I feel.  

      And I have had similar feelings as you about voting for democrats - I have been a registered independent for nearly 20 years, and while I have said that, I never (before right this minute) admitted to voting for Nader in 2000.

      Yup.  I did.

      And it was simple.  I lived in NY, so the whole "vote doesn't count" came into play, and I wanted a 3rd party at the time to get on the 2004 ballot.  I didn't like Nader really, I thought Bush was a jackass and wasn't thrilled at the time with Gore.

      Of course, things have changed for me, just a wee bit since then......

      So pile on, folks......

      •  Well, all I can say is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        clammyc

        I'm glad you're in NJ now.

        ;)

        So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way.

        by wader on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:29:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Watch out clammyc. Heresy alert. (6+ / 0-)

        You've just gone and done it.

        It's especially on the role of lefties in the party, and whether there's really a place in the party for us at all, that I have to hold my tongue. Now that we really see the alternative - today's GOP, it's pretty obvious, but it was far less obvious when you had the Democrats doing welfare "reform," NAFTA, capital gains tax cuts for the wealthy, all the while delivering virtually nothing authentically progressive in 30 years, which is what we were looking at ten years ago.

        For my part, I voted nader in '96 and am proud of it. I think Clinton was the best GOP president since Eisenhower, and I'm still waiting for a real Democratic President in the model of Hubert Humphrey, and still wondering if I'll see one in my lifetime. And one needs to be very careful expressing those views in this forum, which can be home to severe partisan hackery of the sort the GOP themselves do not stoop to (eg, you'd rarely hear a GOoPer deride a libertarian the way a Kossack will deride a Green or even a former Green voter like me.)

        It isn't just here, though. I actually got booted from mydd - by Bowers himself, personally as far as I can tell, not having been troll-rated prior to that or anything - after arguing with him about the merits of certain unions perhaps considering endorsing a green rather than Melissa Bean who, as you probably know, doesn't have the best pro-labor record in the caucus. my point having been that unions are not the democratic party, and their membership has its own interests, which generally dovetail with the Democratic party, but not always in specific cases. i guess since the party they endorsed was the green party, that was heresy.

        Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

        by redstar on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:33:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  We Should Be The First To Hold Our Own (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Maryscott OConnor, clammyc, redstar

        accountable for corruption, for running weak campaigns and for ignoring Democratic values.  That should be the first Democratic value. If it means voting outside the Democratic fold, so be it.

        People with the ego, ambition, and drive to run for public office must be watched carefully.  Those qualities which make them excellent political candidates also make them excellent candidates for corruption. There will be times when major slapdowns are in order. Democratic voters and activists who are afraid to administer the necessary discipline to Democratic politicians don't do the party any favors.

        Click here to educate New York voters. John Sweeney

        by tikkun on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:51:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well, (10+ / 0-)

      whenever I am afraid, I take great comfort in what Jung said, "Where your fear is, there is your work."

      Good for you for doing "your work." :)

    •  I replied on MLW... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maryscott OConnor

      ...because I felt it would be futile to do so here. Anyone who's interested can look at Is Daily Kos is becoming the left mirror of Free Republic?

      Have a nice day, Internet viewers, while you still can.

      newsroom-l.net News and issues for journalists.

      by Jules Siegel on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:22:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Here's what I think, MSOC . . . (3+ / 0-)

      Things are so bad in this country, so truly bad, that we must give the Democrats an opportunity to show us what they and we are made of. So voting anything but Dem is not an option, at this time.

      Simply not an option, MSOC.  If necessary, you must hold your nose and vote for a mediocre or even a baddish Dem. Yes, because they are a Dem.

      Because a bad Dem is a million times better than a good Rescum. There are no, I repeat no, good Repubs any longer. They do not exist. They may have existed in the past, but no longer.

      So you close you eyes and vote Dem. If they fuck up, we hold them accountable. Read RenaRF's excellent diary.

      You vote Dem. Period. That's how bad things are.

    •  The Nastiest Responses I've Received (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Josh or Con or Both

      was when I've posted a comment involving Ralph you-know-who (Green Party candidate).

      Some pretty riled-up folks around here about that.

      This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

      by Mr X on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:32:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  weird vibe in this place of late... (3+ / 0-)

      I just got a post riddled with ad hominems.

      "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

      by kredwyn on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:52:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I read that thread. (3+ / 0-)

        Mindboggling. I do NOT understand why we somehow feel it's okay to speak to people online in ways we would NEVER speak in person.

        And I say "we" because it wasn't so long ago that I was one of the worst offenders.

        GOD, how I wish I could take all that back.

        •  Big virtual hugs... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Maryscott OConnor, Turbonerd

          Maryscott.

          There's something about the anonymous factor that gives folks a carte blanche to behave in ways that they rarely would in a f2f situation.

          Once we begin to realise that there's a real person on the other side of the screen things shift.

          I've been in a couple nasty flame wars...mostly from the good ol' BBS days. Feelings got hurt...on all sides.

          Being online has a learning curve.

          "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

          by kredwyn on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 05:51:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I am much nicer in person (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Maryscott OConnor
          that goes way back

          I have been a blistering asshole online -- I don't do that any more

          slowly, gradually, I learned "caring about the truth" is no excuse for being mean

          and why would a person want to be mean anyway?  really, why?  why ?


          "Which is more musical: a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage

          by rtfm on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 07:43:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  It's rough (7+ / 0-)

    when people disagree. But that's part of the process. If I had been afraid to change my mind in the face of new evidence and opinions, I'd still be a conservative.

    -7.63, -7.59 "George Bush can speak perfectly well, just not when he's trying to be caring or compassionate or concerned about human beings." --- Patton Oswalt

    by droogie6655321 on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:49:30 AM PDT

  •  Would this be...? (12+ / 0-)

    A Me(t)a Culpa?

    Thanks, MSOC.  Civility can prevail around here, and I'm glad that you're here to help it gel. The reverse scenario gets tiring fast.

  •  On Dissent (6+ / 0-)

    It's what makes us Democrats

    It's what keeps us losing

    Cut n Run... to Mars... Ma Bitches

    by Steven R on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:51:09 AM PDT

  •  Are you a coward? (6+ / 0-)

    Or are you a pragmatist?

    Are you Falstaff or Prince Hal?

    Methinks you are too hard on yourself.

  •  Quite frankly, (6+ / 0-)

    after most of my life of being stomped on by my immediate family for holding opinions that differ only slightly from their own, the most I've had the nerve to post here was that I actually know some sensible Republicans.

  •  MSOC, I love you, but (10+ / 0-)

    This diary is a fucking waste of space. You could have spent the time working to beat Republicans.

    There are greater issues out there for the next two weeks than whether people "feel afraid" to post their opinions on Daily Kos.

    Please for now let's put a higher priority on beating back the right wing, and we can sort this other stuff later.

    "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

    by Ivan on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:52:31 AM PDT

  •  Yes and no. (7+ / 0-)

    I'm not afraid to post certain things for fear of criticism, but simply because I don't believe posting them is productive.

    I don't like to waste time fighting over issues I am imovable on. I think that borders on trolling.  Then again, perhaps I just haven't had something on which I disagreed totally with the readership of DK.  I've disagreed with Kos on occasion and haven't had any fear or hesitated to say so.  

    My one ongoing arguement has been that I will under no circumstance vote for Joe Biden if he is the democratic nominee for Pres in 2008, however I think that is such a longshot, that it is not much of a stand.

    Anyway, my 2 cents on the subject...

    •  That's a good distinction. (8+ / 0-)

      I'm not afraid to post certain things for fear of criticism, but simply because I don't believe posting them is productive.

      Bingo.  I don't get into discussions on religion - I save my atheism for UTI or some other such venue.  But on items which are relevant, I'm willing to jump in and post diaries or comments which might be somewhat at odds with the majority here, if I think it might be productive (see my pro-RKBA diaries, as example).

      The distinction is important, and doesn't mean someone is a coward.  

      It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument. -- William G. McAdoo (-7.13/-7.33)

      by Shadan7 on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:20:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  A gentle reminder (12+ / 0-)

    This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama...

    So yeah, maybe this isn't the right blog to post a pro-Green candidate diary on. :)

    •  I'm just stunner to discover ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RFK Lives, Pager

      ... that Obama's a "liberal."

      Am I the last one to discover this?

      •  2nd to last (0+ / 0-)

        I found out right before you did.

      •  Obama CAN'T be a liberal! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Maryscott OConnor

        I'm just stunned to discover ... that Obama's a "liberal."

        Obama's no liberal.  

        After all, he doesn't HATE GOD like we do!

        (Yes, snark, re Obama's disingenuous "the left disses the Lord" bit of shameless self-branding)

        PRAVDA under Stalin had more shame than Fox News.

        by chumley on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:51:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I spend about an hour of every day in prayer... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chumley

          and I think that Obama's anything but a liberal.  Anyone who dismisses Paul Wellstone as a "gadfly," who chose JoeMenutum as his Senate mentor, and who's always trying to compromise w/ the R's has 3 clear indicia of non-liberalness.  It has nothing to do w/ his religious views.

          Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

          by RFK Lives on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 05:15:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Forgive the nuance, but ... (9+ / 0-)

      So yeah, maybe this isn't the right blog to post a pro-Green candidate diary on. :)

      For one thing, this ain't a pro-Green candidate diary.  

      For another thing, even if MsO'C had decided to vote for a Green candidate and posted a diary about it here, I can easily imagine it being written in a way that would have been relevant to the mission of Daily Kos.

      "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

      by Bearpaw on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:10:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to this diary (0+ / 0-)

        I was referring to Mary's comments about the possibility of writing one, in the future, in support of a Green candidatae.

        •  I wasn't sure, that's why ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jules Beaujolais

          I wasn't sure, that's part of why I included the second part of my post:

          For another thing, even if MsO'C had decided to vote for a Green candidate and posted a diary about it here, I can easily imagine it being written in a way that would have been relevant to the mission of Daily Kos.

          "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

          by Bearpaw on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:26:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Yes but (13+ / 0-)

      if we advocate voting for someone just 'cause there's a D there, how can we criticize R's who vote party only (as we're all doing, right now -- eg, how can ANY Repub vote for Pombo or Doolittle or Weldon?)  After all, Dems are running in about 220 of the 230 GOP-held seats, and the netroots aren't advocating for all of them.

      IF there's a decent alternative candidate and the Dem really sucks (i suppose that could be a possibility somewhere, sometime, at a local level), the Dem voters in that district deserve to support the better candidate (with a faithful promise to try to get the winner to change parties, maybe?),  And that supporter should be allowed to say so, here on Kos, without being excoriated for a very difficult decision (note that I don't say there can't be disagreement or disappointment, but the harsh vituperation can be a bit much).

      No Dem should feel completely safe here in Kossack-land.  We're already gearing up to target non-progressive Dems for 2008, after all.  (Which is why I disgree with Chris Bowers saying that Dems who actually cough up more of their campaign funds should get a netroots pass in 2008.  Why, if they don't otherwise merit support?)

      And while I would strongly hope everyone votes D this year regardless, and worry about 2008 after we take back Congress, I can appreciate the conflict that some folks feel.  Maybe letting them express that conflict here on Kos will help them vote D in the end after all, if they are subject to reasoned, thoughtful argument instead of being label an asshole (as I saw on another thread today)

      cheers,

      •  Like our good buddy, Joe in CT? n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  Easy. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silverleaf, vcmvo2

        if we advocate voting for someone just 'cause there's a D there, how can we criticize R's who vote party only (as we're all doing, right now -- eg, how can ANY Repub vote for Pombo or Doolittle or Weldon?)

        That's easy. Their party sucks incredibly bad and they should quit it. The day the democrats suck so bad that you should quit it, you quit it, and this democratic party blog, too.

        The irritations with the Greens party members or symps is that they pretend to be democratic party members and competitors with the democratic party.  When it's issue advocacy inside the party, they are democrats.  When it comes time for the general, they are competitors.  The best thing that any Green has done recently is quit the race and stop running against democrats.

        It's the proto-fascism

        by Inland on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:34:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  just saying that (0+ / 0-)

          we should allow the discussion, instead of having a knee-jerk reaction.  But I know what you mean about the Green issues.

          •  I don't have a problem withq (0+ / 0-)

            discussions of issues.  But it's a democratic blog, and people who run against democrats....there's a place for that discussion, it's called the general election and it's going to be adversarial.

            I wouldn't expect someone backing a green candidate against a democrat to be welcomed here any more than I would expect to see such a person on one of the central committees.

            It's the proto-fascism

            by Inland on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:50:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Now, now (0+ / 0-)
              Inland.  That sounds downright regimental to me.  You seem to favor some type of military discipline here.

              There must be room for thoughtful discussion.  First, as a matter of principle.  Secondly, because there are always new ideas emerging which may turn out to be good new ideas (for the Dems, among others). The dynamics of discussion are central to that.

              •  It's a political party blog. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vcmvo2

                Political parties, and this blog, exist to nominate and elect candidates.  The very premise of a party is to select a candidate and vote for that candidate.

                IOW, the room for disagreement ends at the candidacy.  Not because disagreement is bad, but because the very purpose of a party requires every memeber to vote for the candidate.  

                Unlike the Green Party, the democrats don't run to lose.  They don't run to make a point.  They don't run to publicize positions.  They run to fill offices and actually make policy.

                Unlike Lieberman, a primary isn't advisory or a step in the process.  As a candidate, he became part of the process of selection, implicitly for there to be one winner that he would himself back.  If he had won, he would expect Lamont to back him.  Now, liebermans' not a democrat.  Oh, well, his choice, bye bye.

                It's not military discipline, it's a party, where you are either in or you are out, your choice.

                It's the proto-fascism

                by Inland on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 03:57:29 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  It's not contradiction, it's consistency (0+ / 0-)
        if we advocate voting for someone just 'cause there's a D there, how can we criticize R's who vote party only
        In today's climate, even the 'best' Republican is bad for the country, because he/she/it gives strength to the Republican majority, which is dominated by the ideologues.

        Likewise, even the worst Democrat is good for the country1, because he or she gives strength to the Democratic side and will help us achieve majority status.

        1Particularly true now that Lieberman's running on the Cons For Lieberman ticket.

        Lying about WMDs changed everything.

        by Nowhere Man on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:52:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  that party line (4+ / 0-)

      is what started the process of the dumbing-down of this site. a real turning point for the worse, IMO. one of markos' dumber moments, and utterly contrary to the ideals of the political left, if not to someone trying to build up a non-ideological political machine.

      it reflects a pathetic lack of confidence in one's ability to persuade, let alone in the rightness of one's ideas.

      surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

      by wu ming on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:42:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I voted no (4+ / 0-)
    I'm not afraid of anyone.  Not online.  Their words never hurt me.

    I got into it in person with a guy when I was pretty hard core antiwar in 2002.  Standing about six inches from my face, telling me that "you leftists think you're pretty intellectual don't you?"  That's when I start to hold my tongue, when I think someone is about to try to convince me with their fists.

    But here?  Come on!


    "Which is more musical: a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?" --John Cage

    by rtfm on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:56:29 AM PDT

  •  All the time. (6+ / 0-)

    At least once a session online.

    Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

    by redstar on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:56:51 AM PDT

  •  Maryscott (25+ / 0-)
    Many people told me to Shut Up after I posted this, but you've got to stay true to your principles. Besides a wise great good man once said there's nothing to fear but fear itself. (I also suspect the loudest critics of that diary are the ones doing the least out on the street to win the election for their candidates.)

    Well, Watson, we seem to have fallen upon evil days. Sherlock Holmes.

    by Carnacki on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:57:46 AM PDT

  •  Perspective, hon. (2+ / 0-)

    With 100,000-plus members here, try not to be too put off by the few dozen or so who may viciously come after you about something.   Just ignore 'em.

    I've been attacked by many on several threads and I've learned you've gotta blow it off or you risk becoming just an ineffective and bland  "oh, that nice person."   As Ricky Nelson once said, "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself."

  •  Nope. (4+ / 0-)

    Have you ever consciously decided not to post your honest opinion about something--  here at Daily Kos or anywhere else --because you didn't want to deal with the negative reaction and possible hostility or abuse you imagined might be the response from the community or some of its most vocal or powerful members?

    Fear of your opinion means you don't deserve to speak it.

    We're oft to blame in this--tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage and pious action we do sugar o'er the devil himself.

    by TheBlaz on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:58:37 AM PDT

  •  Oh please. (8+ / 0-)

    I have never been scared to post a diary here.  Hell, look at the diary I just posted, right below yours.  

    But then again, I am the bully of which you speak.  I am a SYFPH advocate.  

  •  I could care less (17+ / 0-)

    if the masses come after me. I endured 10 long years of my family not speaking to me because I'm gay. What do I care if the blogosphere disagrees with me?

    A generous and compassionate soul is worth more than all the wealth in the land. One Pissed Off Liberal

    by azrefugee on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:59:03 AM PDT

  •  You know,,,, (30+ / 0-)

    it comes down to time and place.

    Would I go to a Republican blog and post my intention to vote for a Democrat?  No.  And I don't consider that cowardice, I consider it being pragmatic.

    This is a Democratic website, created for the sole purpose of electing Democrats to office.  As such, anyone posting here knows what they're in for if they post an opposing position.  

    Fine, whatever.  You want to vote Green, and state your intention to do so here on Dailykos, be prepared to be villified, or at least questioned.  Make the same post on a Green website and they will all love you.

    I used to date the Chief of an AZ Indian tribe.  He invited me to attend the National Tribal Chairman elections one year, and we were going to be staying at the dorms in Flagstaff.  Well, if you aren't familiar, over half the school is Indian.  And they aren't particularly thrilled with white people.  And the women aren't particularly thrilled with Indian men dating white women.  And here I am, blond, blue-eyed, and dating a tribal chief.  First time in my life I experienced blatant prejudice.  Believe me, I kept my opinions to myself, even though I agreed with almost everything they said.  Goes back to having the sense to assess the proper time and place to open my mouth.

    "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2810+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

    by Miss Blue on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 11:59:28 AM PDT

    •  You have SO got to be at YKOS (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Silverleaf, Miss Blue, Turbonerd

      so I can hear all these stories of yours. :)

      If you're not on the crazy wild-eyed zealot bandwagon, then you're with the terrorists. :)

      by cskendrick on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:06:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  what miss blue said (8+ / 0-)

      Have you ever consciously decided not to post your honest opinion about something--here at Daily Kos or anywhere else--because you didn't want to deal with the negative reaction and possible hostility or abuse you imagined might be the response from the community or some of its most vocal or powerful members?

      Not really. I have decided not to post my honest opinion about something because that opinion is either peripheral or counter-productive to what this site is about--electing Democrats.

      Not all my opinions need to be stated all the time to everyone. I wouldn't, for instance, recommend Nightdreams or 1001 Erotic Nights to my mother. I don't laud the benefits of psychedelics to children. I won't confront certain Vietnam-veteran friends with my conviction that the war was utterly wrong, and that it is right that the US lost. I don't praise my cats to my dog-lovin' friend. I discuss with my wife's aged and basically decent, but rockribbed Republican parents, only those political subjects on which we might come to some agreement. And I don't go to Kos to proclaim that every Democratic Senator and Representative who voted for torture should be denied every form of support, from everyone, forever.

      •  Well (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Miss Blue, blueness

        I think that that every senator or representative -- regardles of party -- who voted for torture has forfeited the right to ever be elected to any office above dog catcher (probably not even that office) again.  

        I have the list, and the will, to work to defeat every last traiterous scummy one of them.

        Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs

        by leftvet on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:22:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i agree (0+ / 0-)

          Though first I would give them the opportunity to sign a written pledge promising to reverse their vote.

          If to that they say no, then the drive is on to select Democrats who can both defeat these Tortucrats in the primary, and then prevail against the Republicans in the general.

          But that is a project that must wait until after this November 7. For the present we are stuck with, for instance, supporting Debbie Stabenow (T) of Michigan.

    •  Except ... (7+ / 0-)

      Except MsO'C isn't an outsider, she's not dating Markos, and the Greens as a group haven't participated in hundreds of years of oppression of Democrats.

      But other than those little details, your analogy works just fine.

      I think it's a reasonable guess to say that if MsO'C had posted about deciding to vote for a Green candidate, she'd probably have done it in a way that made it relevant to the Daily Kos mission.  Even if I was hardcore always-vote-Dem voter, I'd sure as hell want to know why someone who might well have voted Dem decided to vote for someone else.  That is, if I had any interest whatsoever in trying to convince them (and others like them) to vote Dem in the future.

      "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

      by Bearpaw on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:38:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Listening to the voices in one's party... (12+ / 0-)

        Yes. Exactly. WHY did so many people vote for Nader? They weren't all granola-crunchy-birkenstock-wearing-patchouli-stinking flower children. WHY did they vote for Nader?

        I was always a Gore supporter, so it was easy for me to dismiss Nader. I also had very legitimate grievances against him. But the fact remains that in many very IMPORTANT respects, they DO eat at the same trought, the Rs and the Ds. The corporate fascism in this country has long controlled the politicians who supposedly represent the citizens. How on earth are we to change anything if our own party won't listen to our criticism, demands and opinions?

        I'm sick and tired of being paid attention to during election season -- if you can cal getting massive amounts of mail asking me for money ATTENTION -- and then ignored the rest of the time. By DEMOCRATS.

        I am a disgruntled Democrat, goddamnit, and I have a right to demand they listen to me, as a voter and as a citizen -- and as a DEMOCRAT.

        •  Nader would eat at the trough too (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Miss Blue

          if he were able.

          Let's be realistic.

        •  Fer chrissakes it's worse than that. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Maryscott OConnor, wu ming

          a lot of times, you get the patronizing "yeah, but your constituency represents at best 10% of the voting public, and you have nowhere else to go, and if you don't vote it's your fault the GOP got elected and yadda yadda yadda" from so-called "centrist" Dems (center-right at best anywhere else in the world) who claim realism dictates playing to the center and then wonder why they've increasingly lost power since 1980.

          How does a sane person react to that?

          Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

          by redstar on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:42:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  flower children (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Maryscott OConnor

          They weren't all granola-crunchy-birkenstock-wearing-patchouli-stinking flower children.

          You betcha.  I tried granola once; it was like eating rocks only it didn't taste as good.  By the time I'd heard of Birkies they cost more than I wanted to spend on so little.  A little patchouli is okay, but constant exposure would make me gag.

          I am a disgruntled Democrat, goddamnit, and I have a right to demand they listen to me, as a voter and as a citizen -- and as a DEMOCRAT.

          If I have a political identity, it's some flavor of libertarian socialist.  So Dem leaders should obviously listen to you more than me.  But hell, they should listen to anybody who comes to them and in good faith says, "I'm willing to be convinced.  These are the things that are important to me.  Tell me why I should vote for you."

          In 2000, I wasn't convinced.  (Plus, I was in a "safe" state, so I didn't have to decide whether or not to compromise my vote.)  In 2004, I was grudgingly convinced.  This year?  Dems have my whole-hearted backing.  2008?  [shrug]  We'll see.

          "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

          by Bearpaw on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:54:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  hear, hear! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Miss Blue
      Have you ever consciously decided not to post your honest opinion about something--  here at Daily Kos or anywhere else --because you didn't want to deal with the negative reaction and possible hostility or abuse you imagined might be the response from the community or some of its most vocal or powerful members?

      i am none too proud to admit that i've had a few corkers in the realm of dark thoughts.  some things are just best left between me, myself and i.

      And if my thought-dreams could be seen
      They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
      But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.

      dylan

      weather forecast

      The palaces of kings are built upon the ruins of the bowers of paradise. - Paine

      by Cedwyn on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:26:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Electing Dems is ONE of the purposes of the site (0+ / 0-)

      This is a Democratic website, created for the sole purpose of electing Democrats to office.  As such, anyone posting here knows what they're in for if they post an opposing position.  

      We're also in the business of remaking the Democratic party into the party of progressives. Right now we're obviously focused on the electing Dems part, just as the focus was on supporting progressive candidates during the primary season.

      I would also submit DKos is about creating community to support those goals, which is tangential and yet terribly important to achieving those first two. Maybe that's one of the roots of the distress MSOC is displaying - that she feels somehow disloyal by following the dictates of her conscience. (I don't want to psychoanalyze her, because a) I'm not qualified b) she didn't ask me to c) it's DKos, not DFreud after all.)

      On the other hand, if as a community of committed Democrats all we have to offer in response to a well-reasoned defection by one of our own is a SYFPH tantrum, well, then we deserve to lose her and we deserve to keep losing elections.

      "It's all complicated; it's all connected. That's why we have to pay attention." - Jon Carroll, SFGate.com

      by Turbonerd on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 10:26:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  In short, yes (6+ / 0-)

    at least when sober. :)

  •  Actually the main thing I keep in mind... (5+ / 0-)

    ...as I post is not to do something that would damage my self-respect.

  •  I tend to err on the side of opening my big mouth (15+ / 0-)

    Or doing something marginally reckless.

    Authority from an early age did not impress me much, and friends I have learned is a very ambiguous word for people who share common goals, experiences, agendas, obligations and sometimes but not always a mutual commitment toward one another's well-being.

    Oh, I'm a cynic, alright.

    And the very few times I've let my guard down and contemplated things like "Oh, I can finally let my guard down and be myself!" I've been burned.

    At the end of the day, relationships of any sort are part work, part salesmanship, part mechanic and part romantic. You have to trudge, pitch, fix and idealize so much.

    It's work, so people get used to it. And if it's not work you love, it's going to show, you're going to slip up and disappoint or damage somebody.

    Now, that doesn't mean go hide off in a cave someplace and never talk to anybody, but it's probably best to expect that suddenly, just like that, even the best of friendships and the safest of relationships are capable of going south in the blink of an eye, and you might never, ever know why, never mind have time and opportunity to make it right.

    People are strange like that.

    Moral of story (aside from "Damn, will CSK ever get to the point?"): Cherish the times you have with the people who come and go in your life, for they will sooner or later most certainly go, not always on good terms, and it dishonors all parties concerned that both should discount, sometimes with great delight, what was once good as a 'mistake' or 'waste of time' or 'phase'. And yet people do.

    That said, sometimes -- enough to give hope -- it works just fine.

    It'd be nice to have friends for life.

    But if you ever find yourself compromising to please rather than choosing to change because it suits you, and there is a different: Time to bail. And people don't always do that. And when they don't, bad things start happening.

    This I know all too well.

    Do I ever refrain from posting something here?

    If it could hurt, embarrass or damage others by doing so: yes. If it's just me, I probably don't care very much.

    If you're not on the crazy wild-eyed zealot bandwagon, then you're with the terrorists. :)

    by cskendrick on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:00:40 PM PDT

  •  Funny you should bring this up (3+ / 0-)

    Just this morning I was listening to Michael Krasny's Forum program and he was talking with the candidates for CA Attorney General.

    Jack Harrison of the Peace & Freedom Party sounded like the candidate for me.  I was only vaguely aware of the Peace & Freedom Party but I'm going to look into it and see if there's anyone else I might want to support instead of a run o' the mill Dem.  

    Feels good to say that I must admit.   No Fear!      

  •  Funny you should bring this up (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Erevann, suicide blonde

    Just this morning I was listening to Michael Krasny's Forum program and he was talking with the candidates for CA Attorney General.

    Jack Harrison of the Peace & Freedom Party sounded like the candidate for me.  I was only vaguely aware of the Peace & Freedom Party but I'm going to look into it and see if there's anyone else I might want to support instead of a run o' the mill Dem.  

    Feels good to say that I must admit.   No Fear!      

  •  If enough of the community self-censors, (11+ / 0-)

    the blogosphere becomes both boring and free of credibility and vitality.

    We can learn a lot from countering arguments specifically and reading those of others, as opposed to just yelling SYFPH.

    Teams that tolerate, even encourage dissent do better than teams that prize unity above all (too lazy to look up my diary that explains this, but everyone from the SYFPH days has already read it anyway).

    If you're not angry, you've already given up.

    by peeder on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:04:32 PM PDT

    •  Ditto. (4+ / 0-)

      All too often, I see legitimate arguments shut down but the conventional wisdom of deomcratic philosophy.

      If that philosophy were so great, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

      Part of our mission is to crash the gates bu reviewing our assumptions, and readjusting our compasses when our assumptions fall short.

      The classic example is our view of active-duty military. It's gone through an incredible transformation since I requested my userid. When war started in Afghanistan, we knew jack shit about what our service men and women were going through, we were terrified of being perceived as not supporting the troops.

      But we learned, and our knowledge is now reality based. Given the score cards just issued for Congress on veterans issues, and Republican's dismal performance, I don't think you can say the same of the Republican party.

      That's a huge accomplishment for a bunch of peace lovers.

  •  Sure... (14+ / 0-)

    ....I'm not going to post my more hard-line pro-Israel or Libertarian sentiments here.

    It isn't that I'm 'afraid' of what will happen; I just know it isn't going to do me or my arguments any good, and I don't see a point in alienating people who I have a shot at persuading.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:04:34 PM PDT

    •  Yea, Jay E., you've nailed it down... (3+ / 0-)

      That's why MSOC is commendable to bring it foward to our consciousness, but really, most pieces of text anywhere have an intended audience and an unintended one; this audience isn't instantly accommodating to every piece of text.  Both are pluses (the meta & the tendency to toe the line) in my book, and it makes us more of a family, and more of a community too.

      It should be a little bit about respect, and a lot about civil discourse.

    •  you mean you are more pro-israel and more (0+ / 0-)

      economically libertarian than you present here?

      yowza.

      Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

      by redstar on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:52:34 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No... (0+ / 0-)

        ...I mean that I may hold certain views because I am an economic libertarian and pro-Israel that I don't highlight.  I'm not dishonest in any way, but I don't write diaries about how I think that we should eliminate public schools either.  I do think that we should; I'm just in no hurry to do so, nor do I feel compelled to try and persuade people to that point of view.

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

        by Jay Elias on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:57:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fightin' Words ;) (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Maryscott OConnor, Elise, Jay Elias

          Eliminate public schools!

          puts up her dukes

          Stephanie Dray
          of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

          by stephdray on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:09:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Well, see, you really ought to. (0+ / 0-)

          It is at least honest, and folks ought to be able to take stock of exactly how varied and disparate are the views that really animate folks who call themselves Democratic.

          It is a true testament to the need for electoral reform, the fact that you can advocate abolition of public education and still vote the same way as me, imho.

          Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

          by redstar on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:09:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well.. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Maryscott OConnor, Elise

            ...I don't call myself Democratic; I'm a registered member of the Democratic Party.

            And I've never in any way concealed this; but I'm not required to write a diary on every political issue, nor is anyone else.  Moreover, I think that the knowledge that I'm a pretty serious libertarian was not something that anyone who regularly sees me post doesn't know.

            The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

            by Jay Elias on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:12:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I knew this about Jay (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nightprowlkitty

            and yet respect what he has to say. He hasn't hidden it and I know I am not anywhere near alone in this knowledge.

            Clammy just got multiple 4s when they admitted voting for Nader. People know I did the same and I have not ever been rated or even ostracized for it.

            This kinda goes against the "all encompassing rabid thought police theory", doesn't it.

            •  Thst's cool. (0+ / 0-)

              I've had a mixed experience with that. But I've seen plenty of occasions where folks admitted to voting for Nader and gotten troll-rated to high heaven for it, and where I've tried to politely defend the person and gotten the same treatment.

              It happens. Plenty.

              Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all -9.50, -5.74

              by redstar on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:53:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I appreciate you and all your comments (8+ / 0-)

    but I think that at the moment there are more important things to worry about.  Can't we sort out our feelings after the election?

  •  META: GOTM-FV (11+ / 0-)

    Jesus. A "What laptop should I buy?" Diary gets 30 comments.

    A "Quit Infighting, Democrats" diary gets 600

    This one gets god knows how many.

    An actual GOTV diary gets maybe 6. MAYBE.

    COULD WE PLEASE JUST GOTM-FV!!

    First they call you a traitor, then they pass the Patriot Act II, then they tap your phone, then you move to Canada. -- Mohandas Gandhi

    by roboton on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:06:09 PM PDT

  •  By the way... (18+ / 0-)

    Posting a diary endorsing a Green over a Democrat is not appropriate on Daily Kos, given the Green Party's myriad connections to the Republican Party.

    This is not bullying, this is just telling you what is and what is not appropriate.   Endorsing a Green is no more allowable here than endorsing a Republican.  If you endorsed a Republican, you would rightly be shouted down.   Same thing goes for Greens.

    Daily Kos is a Democratic site.  You have to remember that.  

    •  Consider yourself warned! (13+ / 0-)

      Anyone who thinks the Dems don't have their own version of the Thought Police can dispel that notion after about 15 minutes surfing around kos.

      Now sit up straight and eat all of the platitudes and orthodoxies we heaped on your plate or no dessert for you.

    •  "Rightly shouted down" (5+ / 0-)

      Now that is way too funny...  Did you pull this text from RedState's EULA?

      •  No, from the Daily Kos FAQ. (8+ / 0-)

        This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable.

        http://www.dkosopedia.com/...

    •  But if you find a really great candidate (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Silverleaf, kestrel9000

      a great diary would be you debate with them about switching parties as you try to turn them blue and they try to turn you green.

    •  I have a question for you, DD... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turbonerd, wiretapthis

      Byron DeLear has pledged to vote with the Democrats, should he be elected.

      There are peopel who run as Independents, but consistently vote with one party or the other.

      If a candidate were to run as a Green or Libertarian or what have you (because he couldn't get the support to run as a Dem, or because, well, fill in the blanks), but pledged to vote always with the Democrats -- what would be te argument against that, if that candidate were more true to Democratic ideals and values than the person nominally running as a Democrat? If the Green/Independent/Libertarian candidate were, in fact, a Democrat at heart, and the "Democrat" incumbent were  DINO and absolutely would vote against his party more often than not, and had, in his voting record -- what would the argument be against voting for the person whose party name belied the fact that he was more of a Democrat than the Democrat on the ballot?

      •  MSOC: (5+ / 0-)

        This is-- TOTALLY baffling frankly.

        Instead of posting a diary making the above argument, you posted a diary saying that you can't make the above argument for fear of... WHAT?

        Being disagreed with using... possibly... nasty words?

        The above argument is sound... so make it.

        This diary isn't sound because it hints that what you're really afraid of is not holding onto your spot as local celebrity.

        RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

        by JeffLieber on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:36:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  hee hee (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Turbonerd

          LOL the thougth that MSOC is afraid of people using nasty words.....

        •  Jeff, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JeffLieber, Turbonerd

          The horse is dead, man, stop flogging it.

          You don't like the way I wrote the diary -- I get it. But I wrote the diary I WANTED to write. It was abuot FEELINGS. It wasn't about logic. It wasn't about DeLear, even. I hope I made it clear I am voting for the DEMOCRAT in this instance.

          It was a diary about realising that I am afraid of people's bad opinion of me to the point of contemplating self-censorhip on the SOLE basis of fearing that bad opinion. I did not ask anyone to recommend it. I am not afraid of losing my high profile popularity; I am afraid of what would be behind such a thing happening.

          Have I made myself clear? Can we move on now?

          One of the things I hate the most about this high profile is being virtually unable to post anything without being held to the sandard of my best work. Every once in a while, I just want to post a diary. No grand themes, no larger movement -- just a diary, in the true sense of that word.

          •  Sorry. We got caught in the loop of comments... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Maryscott OConnor

            ...wherein I was trying to find you.

            This comment was well before we actually chatted.

            As for you wanted to not have to be held to the standard of your best work... E-mail your friends... which I will forcefully include ME.

            If you post a blog... c'mon... you know what you'll get.

            This same rant in an e-mail is the forum you are looking for.

            RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

            by JeffLieber on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 05:05:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I dunno Jeff (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Maryscott OConnor

              the format of a diary allows people "food for thought" and this allowed many people a little introspection.  Relegating it to email is exactly self-censureship, for no other reason that it makes some uncomfortable.  The point?  That is the point!

              Get it?  ;)

              Diane W

              •  My comment is a refrence to... (0+ / 0-)

                One of the things I hate the most about this high profile is being virtually unable to post anything without being held to the sandard of my best work. Every once in a while, I just want to post a diary. No grand themes, no larger movement -- just a diary, in the true sense of that word.

                ...nothing more.

                RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

                by JeffLieber on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 06:42:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I knew that (0+ / 0-)

                  but if she wants to diary it, why ask for it to be relegated to email.

                  Honest to God, I keep reading but "You're MSOC" like she has to be someone other than she is to feed the preconcieved notions of her.  (not by you)

                  This is her being her, why can't it just be that?  It boggles my mind.  She doesn't wield anything, or aggrandize herself, in fact she is overly critical of herself, way before she'd criticize anyone else.

                  The woman should write whatever the fuck she wants to.  Just like anyone else.  

                  •  Oh, hey, I don't care... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Nightprowlkitty

                    ...what she does or how she chooses to do it.

                    MSOC seems bothered by the response and I'm saying, if you don't want this kind of response, don't put it out there in a blog.

                    RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

                    by JeffLieber on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 12:22:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Hmmmm (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stephdray

        If he was running without a Democratic opponent, then yes, of course I would vote for him given his promise to vote for Nancy Pelosi as Speaker and his promise to vote Democratic on many issues.  

        But that is not the situation here.   The Democratic nominee would have to be pretty damn bad (i.e. Zell Miller Joe Lieberman bad) for me to even consider voting Third Party.  And then, I would take into consideration the chances my vote will tip the election to the Republicans.  Becasue the last thing I want ever is to help elect Republicans.  It is a mortal sin that God does not grant forgiveness for.  ;)

        •  I'm purely in the realm of the hypothetical today (0+ / 0-)

          And no -- in this hypothetical, the Green/Independent/Libertarian/whatever is running in the general against a Democrat in name only. A Democrat whose voting record assures the voter that he will continue voting with the Republicans.

          It's a hypothetical. Would you consider it wrong to vote for the truly Democratic candidate, who for one reason or another was running as something OTHER than a Democrat, against an incumbent Democrat who amost always votes with the Republicans?

      •  That's easy (0+ / 0-)
        If a candidate were to run as a Green or Libertarian or what have you (because he couldn't get the support to run as a Dem, or because, well, fill in the blanks), but pledged to vote always with the Democrats -- what would be te argument against that, if that candidate were more true to Democratic ideals and values than the person nominally running as a Democrat?

        The argument would be that the third-party candidate and the Democrat would split the vote and allow the Republican to win.

        And I don't cast votes that put Republicans in office.

  •  From a guiltless Naderite, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    opendna, wu ming, suicide blonde

    you are forgiven.

    Exit the donkey, Enter the dragon!

    by OCMIHOP on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:07:30 PM PDT

  •  You are asking the wrong guy that question (4+ / 0-)

    At the height of the Dean movement out here I compared him to Justin Timberlake, at the height of the Kerry campaign i trashed him, just the other day I defended a homophobe's right to free speech here at Dailykos, and today I posted a diary that called Rush Limbaugh a scat muncher, and I am sure I can dig through the archives and find plenty of other times I pissed off the majority around these parts, but I have never been one to hold back because I might offend someone.

    I will take into account your opinion, but that doesn't mean I will change my mind or stop saying what i am saying.

    absolute freedom for one individual undoubtedly limits the freedom of another.

    by jbou on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:11:16 PM PDT

  •  I'm surprised with you MSOC (10+ / 0-)

    I've always been a supporter/fan/defender of yours.  

    I never thought you to be the type to fear the response from the members of this community, especially given that you've outright antagonized many in the past.

    If you posted voting Green, you rightfully would be shouted down here, because your action would be antithetical to the purpose for which this site was created.  Worse, the effect of the vote would be enable the monsters who presently hold power.

    It's not an issue of not permitting dissent, it's a recognition of the stated goals of this community.  The timing for such diaries is particularly bad right now.  We need Dems to be elected to stop the creeping fascism that threatens to engulf us.  Whether the Dems are right on policy or not is a different issue . . . one we can debate 'till the cows come home AFTER the Republicans are out of power.

    So, respectfully, SYFPH and GOTV.

    If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. - Cpt. Ian Fishback

    by Rick Oliver on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:15:20 PM PDT

    •  Right, cause once the Repugs are out of power... (3+ / 0-)

      All paradise shall ensue.

      Are you folks serious?  Rightfully shouted down?
      Have you ever rightfully shouted at your children in a grocery store?

      If you answer yes to that, next time you should try a gentle glance and three soft words.  See if it happens again.

      •  Why is one poster's right to criticize (6+ / 0-)

        Democrats more valued than mine to criticize them for doing so?  And MSOC is no child.

        Of course paradise will not ensue if we take back Congress, but the immediate threat to our Constitution will have been at least impeded and we won't be in the middle of an election.

        If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. - Cpt. Ian Fishback

        by Rick Oliver on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:29:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I never said you couldn't criticize.. (0+ / 0-)

          I was just poking fun at your criticism. And since you did not shout, or swear, or even break a sweat, I'd say you're right on the money with pursuing civil discourse...

          No beef Rick O., I agree with your comment, just not as strongly as you might like me to.

          Seems like you're doing fine with that tho.

      •  Omg. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        exiled texan, Glinda, Rick Oliver

        Do you actually HAVE children?  Seriously.  

        A gentle glance?  Yeah, okay.  Whatever Dr. Spock.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2810+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

        by Miss Blue on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:39:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I take it back.. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          stephdray

          Now that I just went and had my first child, I completely concur that you should scream and berate and swear at children; please proceed to do so at your earliest, and most frequent urges.  Just not on this liberal blog, I guess is what I'm saying.

          •  Now this is gettting close to TR-able (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Miss Blue
            1. No one said yo should scream and berate their kids.
            1. This is NOT a liberal blog, it is a Democratic blog.
            1. What behavior towards one's kids has to do with behavior towards MSOC or any other poster here is beyond me.  We aren't children.

             

            •  This (0+ / 0-)

              1 - Is a place where people come to speak their piece, and hopefully help elect progressive Democrats.  Nothing about this diary, or my loose commentary prohibits that.

              What behavior towards one's kids has to do with behavior towards MSOC or any other poster here is beyond me.

              2 - Find people that scream, or "shout down" their children, and I'll bet you found people that shout down their freinds, peers, family, and strangers on the intertubes.  Feel free to troll-rate whatever you feel deserves that rating.

              We aren't children.

              3 - Obviously, you're speaking for yourself and not me.  I revel in my immaturity.  I think I (and others) just don't feel obliged to toe the Dem-line because of a few suggestive phrases in the FAQ.

              4 - Man alive, I love phrases like, "close to TR-able"...  That must be like "close to shouting down" a child or something.

              •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                1.  I am very progressive in my views.  But this site is NOT about electing progressive Democrats, it's about electing Democrats across the spectrum
                1.  There is probably no parent who has NEVER yelled at a kid.  On here, I shout a lot.  But I hardly ever troll rate.  
                1.  An immature adult is not a child.  
                •  Confused over here now (0+ / 0-)

                  On point #1...

                  Does this quote speak for or against the point that you're trying to make?

                  And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog.

                  Just trying to figure out our purpose here.

                  •  Oh, and back to shouting down children.. (0+ / 0-)

                    I'm sure you're right, that nobody on here can say they never, ever shouted at a child.  I shout at myself religiously - I promise I am all the child I can be and more.  It's not healthy and we all (should) know it. There resides my only point in bringing it up at all.  I could have easily said upthread, "you ever shout down your great grandparents?" and the point remains.

                    But isn't this nuance of reality the same underlying reason that nobody on RedState can say they successfully forced democracy on a 3rd world country using cluster bombs and "Whiskey Pete"?

                    Maybe when our guns can shoot pre-fabricated constitutions, and maybe when children actually listen, without resentment, while being "shouted down"...

                    We can change the name of the site to Little Green Footballs or something of that nature.

                  •  I dunno (0+ / 0-)

                    I guess you'd have to ask Kos.

                    But 'reform' is not equivalent to 'progressive'.  I think of 'reform' as being for fairer elections, against corruption, and so on.  That's LIKELY to favor progressive interests, but it isn't equivalent.

          •  Just to be clear,,,, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Josh or Con or Both

            not that I owe you a thing, re explanation or anything else, but I have successfully, by ANYONE'S definition, raised five lovely children to adulthood, without ever once raising my voice, or hand to them.

            HOWEVER, discipline under any circumstances consists of more than a "gentle glance".  How patently absurd.

            The fact that your posts have been so hostile, disrespectful, and sarcastic tells me you are far from an expert in parenting, be it as the practioner or subject.

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2810+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

            by Miss Blue on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 07:44:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  just to be clear, indeed. (0+ / 0-)

              next time you should try a gentle glance and three soft words

              I suppose in a world filled with only superstar parents, pointing out an intentional misquote (x2) is also sarcastic, disrespectful, & hostile.

              So be it, Miss Blue. But please let me know if anything I do on this site ever rises to the level of screaming at someone, swearing at someone, berating someone, or even more related, "rightfully shouting someone down".

              But I'm sure one need not be a certified super 'Star Trek' expert to be a parent, to be a child, to generally discuss human interaction, or especially to behave childishly while discussing parenting.  I never claimed to be an expert on any topic, and I never claimed to care about your parenting skills in particular.  Yet here we are.

              It should be a great source of pride (to them & you) that you raised well-adjusted children without excess, misplaced, or passive-aggressive discipline.  That you've done so well there, makes it hard to imagine why you'd be bickering on the same side of the fence with a total stranger here.

        •  Your retort is priceless! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Miss Blue

          Ah, yes, I remember the days of having a toddler in a supermarket. Soft words and a glance? Hilarious!

          "You don't lead by pointing and telling people some place to go. You lead by going to that place and making a case." - Ken Kesey

          by Glinda on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 03:40:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Soft words and a meaningful look... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kdrivel

          Work with my kid.

          Depends what the words are.

          I can be pretty terrifying to my kid with my word choices: "Do you want to keep your Play Station?"

          : )

  •  Yes and no. (4+ / 0-)

    I can't say that I was ever afraid of the reaction, but I wouldn't post something that I know would generate a reaction if I didn't have time to address that reaction.

    That is, if I have time to deal with the backlash then I'll go ahead. I think it's, well, rude, I guess, to post something that you know is controvercial and then walk away from it. It's not about getting the last word in or trying to prove that you're right, it's about a dialogue and you need to support a dialogue.

    Perhaps I've been lucky, but I've never been troll rated. Not even a little bit. More than anything, the attitude behind a dissenting opinion is what garners the TR. If you go in hot, expect the cold water. If you go in even, I think you come out even with this crowd.

    Of course, there's a cult-of-personality variable that doesn't apply to me - and those that have are well known are well known for a reason - they are active and outspoken. If I posted that I was voting Green, who the fuck would care - who the fuck am I. But MSOC... well, that's different. Shouldn't be, but it is. The well-known around here fit a personality role for the site. You need the hammer, the moderator, the conscience, the venter, and so on. Someone will be cast in that role for the community to act on behalf of the community. If you are cast in that role, it's very difficult to step out of it. There's an unwritten contract that you will maintain a certain persona on behalf of all and if you break it, people feel betrayed. Essentially, to some (many, perhaps) you've become a fictional character and you're expected to stay in character.

    -6.00, -7.03
    "I want my people to be the most intolerant people in the world." - Jerry Falwell

    by johnsonwax on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:21:34 PM PDT

    •  But you get TR'd (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cowgirl

      and dont have the ability to respond since your comment vanishes.... TU's you can dis you all day and night and you cant do anything about it.  

      •  Oh, I'm not arguing with that. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kdrivel

        I agree completely. Just that the behavior of the community varies depending on who you are and the role you play. In many ways, MSOC is less likely to get TRd on a tirade than I would since it's almost expected that she'll go on a tirade. The community tolerates that from her more than other people. However, they're more likely to TR her for turning on Dems than I because there is also a perception of leadership that she carries that I don't.

        A poll isn't terribly useful at rating the community because MSOC has a very different role in the community than I and the majority of people here do. Hunter, MB, Georgia, etc. would be suitable peers to her, and what she expereiences I don't expect to ever experience so my view of the community is totally different from hers. I might post something controvertial and get TR'd and Elise and terrypinder might be the only people who notice. The consequences to me are very small. MSOC does it, and she get's top rec and 600 comments and the diary becomes institutionalized as the model of some kind of behavior. The consequences for her are signficant. Of course, her standing here also gives her an outlet to address the TR that I don't have. She can step in almost anywhere and get an audience. If I'm TRd and hidden, I'm quite effectively silenced.

        -6.00, -7.03
        "I want my people to be the most intolerant people in the world." - Jerry Falwell

        by johnsonwax on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:00:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  If only this were so... (0+ / 0-)

      More than anything, the attitude behind a dissenting opinion is what garners the TR. If you go in hot, expect the cold water. If you go in even, I think you come out even with this crowd.

      Troll rating is often used by some for quashing dissent.  I've seen many people having (or trying to have) a reasonable discussion, only to be troll rated by someone who doesn't have the desire or capability to discuss the issue.  TRs are actually what I first thought of when I read this diary.  Doing that is very effective, I might add, especially for the newer posters who don't have TU.  A TU disagrees with them, and the discussion is over when the newish poster is TRed.  This isn't the norm, but it happens too much.  I bet there are a lot of lurkers who have witnessed this and are hesitant to voice their views because of it.


      You dropped the bomb on me...baby! - Bob Corker

      by cowgirl on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 05:43:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  It's not fear telling you to vote for the Dem (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Miss Blue, Elise, Alegre, blueness

    Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
    It's your conscience.

    It is better to die on one's feet than to live on one's knees. - Albert Camus

    by Distaste for Dissent on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:21:47 PM PDT

  •  Well... duh... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stephdray, vcmvo2, Elise, TheBlaz

    Imagine this: two websites - one dedicated to singing the praises of rhubarb pie, and the other dedicated to proving that lemon meringue pie is the incarnate of all that is good and tasty.  You are a long time contributor to the rhubarb pie site.  One lonely night, you are hungry and desperate for pie, but the only Denny's for miles around only have lemon meringue.  You decide one night of sleeping with the enemy won't hurt, so you get it.  Upon tasting the pie, you realize that lemon meringue pie is much better than rhubarb, and perhaps it's just that they aren't making rhubarb like they used to, but you decide that now, lemon meringue is your favorite pie.

    Are you really going to expect to be able to go back to the rhubarb pie site and talk about how great lemon meringue pie is?  It seems kind of dumb to whine about not being able to do that, it's so blatantly obvious.

  •  As I said in Rena's diary (8+ / 0-)

    I did not and will not post my honest thoughts about Ford.  This has nothing to do with fear of a Daily Kos reaction (Really, who cares?).  It has everything to do with the conscious knowledge that a pile-on of anti-Ford messages can and will damper support for him, thus giving that race to Corker.  I will not let myself be partly responsible for that.

    Is it holding my nose?  Yep.  But I don't think it's cowardly at all.  It's the right thing to do in order to get what is far, far more important:  Speaker Pelosi, Sen. Majority Leader Reid.  At this point, all else falls to the wayside.  Helping Corker win gains us NOTHING.  Two more years of the GOP running things is the worse danger, by far.

  •  Are You Kiddin'?! (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    kdrivel, RiaD, Albatross, suicide blonde

    I never post any of my substantive opinions here.  I'm way too far left; pearls would be clutched into dust.  

    Beyond that, I delete 90% of what I do type into boxes here instead of posting it.

    In fact, whether I hit send or close the browser on this comment is going to be a tough call...

    CNN: The Most Trusted Name In News
    Twinkie: The Most Trusted Name In Nutrition

    by Irfo on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:24:04 PM PDT

    •  Being far tooo left. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maryscott OConnor

      Isn't it sad?  I am an ultra leftie. How can one be too far left for dKos?  Yet a lot of Kossacks just can't take a truly progressive ideology.  Never mind that being not far left enough is what brought the Dems into the shit in the first place.
      •  I'm OK With It (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jules Beaujolais

        I feel loyalty to dKos, having been here a long, long time, and especially now that dKos is such a powerful and visible center of Democratic activity, I feel a personal responsibility not to give the other side anything to point at here and say "look, they're all Socialists!"  

        I especially don't want the other side to be able to tar any Democratic candidate by saying "She took dKos money!!"  That kind of thing strikes near the heart of this site's power.  So I don't really mind keeping my fucking piehole shut around here, there's other places where I can mouth off.

        CNN: The Most Trusted Name In News
        Twinkie: The Most Trusted Name In Nutrition

        by Irfo on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 03:12:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well, sure, Daily Kos has its share of... (4+ / 0-)

    ...Kool Kids, board nannies and suck-ups. Just like any other online community. And, sure, these people get on my nerves too.

    But surely, when there are less than two weeks to go before the election, we should be posting practical diaries on how to get out the vote, how to monitor the election process etc.--not pointing out something that has been obvious about this board for some time now and that really isn't that big of a deal when compared to the positive aspects of this community.

  •  a perfect example (2+ / 0-)

    right now there is a diary about why someone Won't/wouldn't vote for Ford because of his stand against Gay Marriage. It's not a pretty sight tho it hasn't gotten real ugly.
    MSOC , you are one of the special ones around here who have done enough for Dems, that people will let you slid for the most part.
    I never go in META diarys, but I did because it was yours. I trust if you feel the need to vote green, you have a good reason. What does confuse me a bit is your need to tell us. Being private a certain times does not a coward make. You have never struck me as a coward by any measurement.

    -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

    by OneCrankyDom on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:25:54 PM PDT

    •  I DON'T feel the need to vote Green. (0+ / 0-)

      Not this time. That's one of the points of the diary -- that I was RELIEVED not to want to vote for DeLear, because if my conscience truly dictated that I vote for him, I would be forced to face a very distasteful situation -- being on the wrong side at my second-favourite blog in the whole wide world.

      The point is that I am AFRAID of wanting to vote for a non-Democrat -- should the situation ever arise -- because of the position in which I'd be putting myself in the eyes of my fellows.

      You dig?

      •  my bad (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Maryscott OConnor

        trying to read and do other things at the same time. My point is still the same tho. No one is a coward just because someone else strikes a nerve and makes someone want to vote for them.
        I would feel more of a coward if I didn't vote my heart, instead of the Dkos party line.

        -8.63 -7.28 He was carrying a skateboard on his back, a red rose in his fist, and the war.

        by OneCrankyDom on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 03:10:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  If I feel the need to speak out... (10+ / 0-)

    I'll damn well speak out about it. Sure, I'm a Democrat first (funny how I used to consider myself a liberal first, Democrat second), but if something strikes me as wrong, I'll write about it...no matter how many people it pisses off.

    I'm not here to make friends. Above all, I'm here to have a discussion. And if that discussion means I'm on the opposite side of a given issue, so be it.

    Deny My Freedom
    "Inconvenient truths do not go away just because they are not seen." -Al Gore

    by PsiFighter37 on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:26:34 PM PDT

  •  This year I voted (0+ / 0-)

    for every democrat on the ballot except for Senator (Feinstein).  

  •  Here? No. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor

    I've said that the Constitution is a joke of an antique toy that leaves us largely naked against modern society and its owners, and I stand by that sentiment.

    I'm not willing to confront my suppliers and customers with my politics, but here, sure. I'm more worried about being starved than ridiculed.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:29:52 PM PDT

  •  Given Kos on Ford, you're timing's good... (5+ / 0-)

    Our founder openly stated today that he's lukewarm at best about the Dem Senate nominee in a too close to call race in a year when ultimate Senate control is too close to call.  Once the door of party absolutism is opened that narrow crack, the topic should be fair game.

    The Wellstone memorial thread yesterday makes your diary even more relevant.  The gap between what Wellstone did and what other contemporary Dem senators from equally blue states have done is something that occasionally needs to be recalled.  28/50 Senate Dems voted for the IWR, and 12/44 voted for the even more odious MCA.  I know how Wellstone voted on the IWR even though he faced a tough re-election battle, and I know how he would've voted on the MCA.

    I know that we have to swallow some of our principles in the near term and support the likes of Ford, Casey, Bill Nelson, and others on 11/7.  I know even more that Conyers getting subpoena power on the House side is a vital task.  I also know, however, that victory on 11/7 will be meaningless if major changes do not occur.

    I hope (and I occasionally pray) that new Senate blood from the likes of Brown, Sanders, and (PLEASE GOD) Lamont will shake things up.  I also know, however, that there will be plenty of Dems who will view victory on 11/7 as a call for "moderation," esp in JoeMentum survives.  Hell, Obama, whom I once thought had some Wellstone potential, has quickly become a devout disciple of "bipartisanship."

    I greatly appreciate your efforts here.  As to your basic question, my answer is a definite yes.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:31:46 PM PDT

  •  My favorite kind of response here (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor, wu ming, sodalis

    is the "Well, I checked your history, and you're obviously not a troll. . ."

    It that a chink in your armour showing? Does it mean you might be willing to step outside the group thought with me for a moment?

    That's where you find the best of dKos, where it begins working not just as a piece of the democrat machine, but as a think tank percolating ideas.

    Thanks, MSOC, for defending free speech, even on a Democrat Blog, is always worthwhile.

    •  It says explicitly in the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stephdray

      FAQ that there is NO FREE SPEECH HERE.

      Doesn't the First Amendment give me the right to talk about whatever I want here?

      No. Daily Kos is owned by kos. The servers are his. He pays the bandwidth charges. He makes the rules; we are here as his guests. If he decides tomorrow that anyone not posting in iambic pentameter will be banned, your options are either to brush up on your poetry skills or find/start another forum.

      •  were msoc to write a lengthy diary (0+ / 0-)

        about fantasies of voting for a Republican, I doubt Markos would ban her.

        If the next userid to be assigned did the same in their first diary, I expect that person would be banned the same day they wrote the diary.

        But MSOC isn't talking about the rules Markos lays down. She's talking about the democratic-mob-mentality that takes over. That's a different kind of speech limitation, and I applaud her for challenging it.

  •  (OT) MSOC: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Floja Roja, Brian B

    Oh, wise woman, I beg your kind assistance in preparing for this imbroglio tomorrow.......
    Favor me with your wisdom?

  •  sure... (4+ / 0-)

    Any I/P diary.  Some people are convinced that being pro-palestinian is the same as being anti-semitic.  Any comment that is made favorable toward palestinians immediately derails the conversation to one about anti-semitism.  So why bother?  

    Anything else, I'm game for.

    "Facts are stupid things"-- Ronald Reagan 1988

    by dougymi on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:35:24 PM PDT

  •  Oh please (8+ / 0-)

    There's plenty of disagreement here.  
    Some of it gets heated.  Political debate tends to do that.  MSOC is not exactly known for the calmness of her words.

    But this site is, after all, devoted to electing Democrats.  Not Greens.  Personally, I agree with this completely.  That's one of the reasons I post here.  And that's one of the reasons I post angry replies to people who support Greens.  I think the Green party is terrible. TERRIBLE.  I think voting for a Green, in any election, anywhere, does damage to the very causes that the Greens support.

    I don't go to Green bulletin boards or blogs and post these views there, and, if I did, I would expect flames.  I would deserve them.  Perhaps I might change a few minds - I don't know.  But I would have to be prpared to don asbestos first.

    OTOH, I have NEVER troll rated someone because they disagree with me.  NEVER.  I have only TRed people who post commments that add nothing to the debate and hurt for no reason.  Posts like "Shut up shit for brains" will get a TR from me.  Also once I TRed a comment that was well-meant, but could easily have been taken the wrong way, in ways I thought bad for daily Kos.

    But still.  Loss of love? Really?
    Do you, MSOC, think so little of your friends here that you think they would stop liking you because they DISAGREE with you?  

    What sort of friends are THOSE?

    •  I agree with plf... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      stephdray

      Substitute the word "Green" for the word "Republican".

      If you don't mind seeing diary after diary of people saying "I support the Republican", then I guess it's OK to support a Green or a Libertarian on this site.

      But if this site is about electing Democrats, then the Green and Libertarian supporters should EXPECT to be excoriated in exactly the same tone and to the same degree that a diarist would be who says "I support the Republican". Because unless the vote is FOR the Democrat, it's not FOR the Democrat.

      The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it -- GB Shaw

      by kmiddle on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:43:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Incidentally... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Turbonerd

      I do not care for the Green Party, either. It's merely an example.

      And yes -- if you have read some of the more horrendous commentary on a few of my more recent diaries, you will have noted that people who formerly called themselves my "friends" oir "fans" or "supporters" felt completely free to not only reverse their opinions of me but to actually go to the extreme and call me "enemy."

      It was... illuminating, to be sure.

      And I recently lost two people who I thought were my VERY good friends, in real life as well as on my own blog, due in no small part to my managerial style and decisions at MLW. Certainly, this has influenced my feelings lately about being abandoned by people who I thought were friends for life and who, instead, turned out to be as mercurial as third graders.

      •  I didn't know (0+ / 0-)

        your feelings towards Greens, I was basing my response on your post.

        I don't follow MLW, there's a limit to the hours in the day, and I do have to do SOME work :-)

        As to those friends who abandoned you....well, I'm sorry.  I have rollicking political fights with my friends all the time.  

  •  I am afraid of MSOC (4+ / 0-)

    Seriously, I respect most of your views and even accept your potty-mouth rants as passionate energy. Even when I think that your message sometimes gets lost in the cussin'.

    And though when I have often "filtered" my thoughts according to what I thought the reaction might be, it has not been because of fear that you, MSOC, would call me on it, it has been because of the way you and some others can take down someone in a highly public way for the impudence of being contrarian.

    Fortunately for me, I am as much a part of this problem as I think you are, and therefore have the wherewithal to post anyway. I should know better, but I occasionally allow my frustration with illogic or stupidity to translate into churlishness. This makes me a real pain the ass on occasion, and, even worse, a wrongheaded, arrogant pain in the ass.

    But, that's the way it goes. I speak my mind and sometimes my mind isn't working very well. My only hope is that I recognize it when it happens, but I'm afraid that I sometimes don't.

    So at the end of the day, I accept the beat-downs of others, because I know where they're coming from, and because it's a result of the passion and intelligence behind the members of this site. It's not perfect, but I'd rather there be that kind of energy, even if some folks get shouted down, than no energy at all.

    One last thing, as this site continues to grow, almost every view can find people here who will support it. About the only thing I dislike are those folks who see fit to attempt to "censor" things they don't want to hear.

    Flame away.

    -8.38, -4.97 "...there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, Act II, Scene ii.

    by thingamabob on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:40:10 PM PDT

  •  God Bless You MSOC (0+ / 0-)

    Unless this is all snark, in which case, I'm really confused.

    I have complained about Sherrod Brown and Harold Ford, just to vent, and practically been ridden out of the virtual community on a rail.

    I feel your pain.

    Now, SYFPH.

    Just kidding.

  •  Unfair and a gross exaggeration. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CAL11 voter

    I've tasted the wrath of the mob that patrols the diaries at Daily Kos

    Yet there's some truth in it as well.

    •  Yes. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Whiskey Sam, CAL11 voter

      But MSOC can give as good as she gets.  Though it's true the community seems to have turned against her somewhat since she bagan her TV appearances.

      If we abandon our ideals in the face of adversity and aggression, then those ideals were never really in our possession. - Cpt. Ian Fishback

      by Rick Oliver on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:47:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Truth... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maryscott OConnor, coigue, TheBlaz

      ...and irony.  Shitloads and shitloads of irony.

      November 7, 2006: Republigeddon

      by The Termite on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:54:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Could someone explain to me... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buhdydharma, Turbonerd

      ...what ACTUALLY happens when "the wrath" comes out?

      Cause all the "you're stupid, go back to your hole" typing in the world does EXACTLY WHAT to one's real life?

      This "fear" is a fear of what?

      Being disliked on a blog?

      Not getting diaries sent straight to the reccommend list?

      I don't understand.

      RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

      by JeffLieber on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:09:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Feeling awful. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        srkp23, Turbonerd, wiretapthis

        That simple and silly, really. Fear of being yelled at, fear of being called names, fear of opprobrium.

        And yes -- fear of being disliked. Some of us, Jeff, dear, are not as strong as others. Some of us have never matured to the point of not caring what others think and say about us. It's pitiful and embarrassing, but there it is.

        •  Well, MSOC (0+ / 0-)

          if you have opinions (and you surely do) you are going to have people disagreeing.

          If you yell your opinions (and you surely do) you are going to provoke yells.

          As for caring what other people think, the only people who REALLY don't care what other people think are sociopaths.  

        •  I hate to say it (0+ / 0-)

          but you get the rewards of "putting yourself out there", you have to take the bad stuff too. Or learn too.

        •  But THAT'S not Dkos issue. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buhdydharma

          (And I don't mean to suggest there's a problem with you for feeling that way)

          In truth, what has me freaked, is that your argument re: the Green candidate is a totally sound one.

          He's a better candidate (and I'm momentarily taking your word for it).

          He'll vote with the Democrats.

          Done and done.

          I'll vote for him and so would LOTS of people on this site.

          A Democrat is a Democrat only when he's the best candidate for what amounts to the Democratic constituency.

          But to argue that it's DKOS' fault that you're afraid not to be celeblogger... ?

          RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

          by JeffLieber on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:00:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If that's how it came across (0+ / 0-)

            I really, really suck. Because

            A) not DKos -- a small group of people on DKos and

            B) not being a celeblogger? Come on. That's not it at all. It's the feeling of being approved of -- or NOT approved of. It's not celebrity for celebrity's sake. It's the general approval of a group of people for whom I have deep respect and admiration... and the fear of LOSING that approval.

            C) and what the loss of that approval would mean -- that they aren't as admirable and worthy of my respect as I thought them to be, sicne their removal of approval comes so often in the form of outright abusive verbiage and nastiness.

            You dig?

        •  Maryscott, I have to call you on something (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2, buhdydharma

          I don't know HOW you can accuse dKos of having a mob, when I have personally seen you post a diary on dKos, then go back to your own web site to ask for help when the comments weren't going your way. Asking your "peeps"to defend you. I've seen you do it more than once. like you were participating in a gang war or something.

          If anyone has a mob, you do. The number that responded to your request was small, but not really powerful.

          There, I've said it.

          And THAT is the most courage I have had to muster, was speaking up to you.....and my fingers are shaking.

          •  Ask for help? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coigue

            I don't ask for HELP. I complain about the people here who might be driving me mad -- but I have NEVER said, "Please come over to DKos and HELP me!"

            OR ANYTHING CLOSE TO IT.

            And you really, really have nothing to fear from me or anyone I know; you are a decent and lovely person and I have great esteem for you and your opinion, which is why it bothers me so much when you misunderstand me.

            But surely, SURELY you don't begrudge me the option of going back to my "home turf" and bitching about how mean the mean people are being to me? I don't encourage retaliation -- and it RARELY comes to pass anymore, in case you haven't noticed, specifically because I DIScourage it.

            But I retain the right to bitch about it. And yes, even to WHINE. I take as much as I can take here, and then I go back home to nurse my wounds and cry.

            Please, PLEASE don't feel afraid about me. That "mob" of which you speak is nonexistent nowadays. Honestly.

            •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Maryscott OConnor

              Maybe I am being too harsh. And maybe I am thinking of the "old Maryscott" (kind of like the "old Armando ;)"

              As to going to your home turf: As long as you discourage people from defending you at dKos, I am Ok with it. (Because you really have plenty of power in the LWblogosphere...)Sounds like things have changed.

              (One of the reasons I left (temporarily, I trust) is because I did not like how some people treated Armando, actually, and also the number of people who went to MLW to bitch about dKos. I hope both of those things has changed.)

          •  ask for help? (0+ / 0-)

            Hell, the woman rarely, if ever, talks to us on her own blog, let alone ask for help!  Maybe 3 or 4 comments tops on a good day. Moreoften one.

            And she has repeatedly asked everyone to stop kos bashing, and not to pile on.

    •  It's not. (0+ / 0-)

      There IS a mob. It may be small, but it is powerful, and able to completely derail any discussion at any time with a barrage of flaming comments and distractions from the actual topic.

      •  It's not powerful (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2

        and it's not a mob.

        Different groups of people agree with each other at different times.

        Sometimes there's overlap.

        That's not a mob.

        Your rhetoric is so over the top, it makes no sense to me.

        As I said below, I don't want dKos to be tamed so that everyone can feel comforatable posting.

        I rather like it's edge, and we will lose it if we all "make friends"

        You need to be responsible for your own courage.
        (I feel silly saying this to a woman who goes on Foxnews then posts about it here...you felt that was the right thing, and you did it. You have courage, why can't you let other people live up to expressing their convictions in the face of possible ridicule???)

        •  Maybe you've just missed it -- (0+ / 0-)

          but it happens a lot. More and more lately. It does, and it's not hyperbole. I've seen newcomers get hounded right off the site by that mob. I've seen oldtimers lost TU and even get autobanned. It's happened, it's happening and, apparently, it will continue to happen.

          I'm not counting myself among the number who have been hounded, mind you. I've taken a few hits, but I'm a big girl; I am speaking for those peopel who don't have the body armour I have.

          There is a difference, I believe, between people making legitimate criticisms -- and just going OFF on people. I just waded through a thread wherein someone felt perfectly justified in calling a well-established oldtimer (Kredwyn) retarded, drunk and stupid -- merely for having the temerity to post an opinion contrary to his. It was apalling. And it ISN'T a rarity -- it happens all the freaking time.

          If you haven't been privy to this sort of thing, I'm surprised, but I believe you. However -- just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happened.

          •  Someone said I was a coyote once (0+ / 0-)

            because I am empathetic to immigrants.

            I've been called all sorts of names by individuals, but never a mob.

            Never more than two people.

            And I think Kredwyn is a big girl(?) too, who can stand up for herself.

            I just don't see how this is different than it's ever been.

  •  Well duh (0+ / 0-)

    You can't say half the things you wanna say about Bush and America on this blog.

    I thought that was just obvious... this is about politics, you know politic.

  •  Everybody picks their battles (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Silverleaf, churchylafemme

    In every kind of forum - I've seen cooking sites go apeshit over the use of egg whites for heaven's sake.   And don't even start in the parenting sites where cloth vs disposable might come up.  

    It doesn't make you a coward to choose your battles.  Sometimes we have the energy to do it and other times we just don't.  And furthermore - you've got more on your plate than most of us and your first priority has to be yourself.   Do not beat yourself up for making choices that suit your needs at the time.  

    And your vote is your own - use it as you want.  It's nobody's damned business how you vote so if you don't want to vote for someone then don't.  

    It would be nice if everyone could play nice but sometimes they can't and a keyboard can turn some people into dicksmacks faster than anything else - except maybe Rye.  

    So yes, put me down in the "won't post opinions on certain things because I don't have time for a fight" column.  

  •  WTF, it's just a blog. Speak your mind. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Whiskey Sam

    Everyone loves you anyway.  Me too.  It's different for some of us.  :-)

  •  MSOC, Great post. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor

    (Full disclosure: I've repeated this many times in the past year or so, but it certainly bears saying here... I was once one of the more vocal, vicious and powerful advocates of SYFPH. I am ashamed of it, and have apologised many times. I rationalised it with the fact that I believed it was the most important Presidential election in history, and that the time for negativity toward John Kerry had passed once he won the primary. I am very embarrassed by my past behaviour in this regard, and apologise once again to anyone whom I may have hurt in my zeal to get Kerry elected at all costs.

    Gawd, I recall those days as if it were yesterday.

    The greatest challenge of the 21st century is to eradicate double standards from international politics."

    by Lords on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:46:00 PM PDT

  •  Sure, I've held back lots of times (11+ / 0-)

    Lots and lots and lots of times, in fact.

    Just because I have a strongly held opinion -- and believe me, I have ... oh ... a thousand or so strongly held opinions -- it doesn't mean it's vitally necessary to the continuance of my inner mental life (or those of readers) that I voice every single damn one of them.

    Thus, one chooses what to post. For me, the criteria is:

    1. Will my opinion possibly help clarify an issue? Well, usually not. Sometimes it's because I discover my own thinking still needs clarification. Sometimes it's because positions are so locked-down about an issue that there's little room for any chink of light to come in, either in my own brain or anyone else's.
    1. Am I adding a truly new perspective to an issue? Usually not. Just repeating what other posters have already expressed over and over, often better than I have, seems kind of wasteful.
    1. Do I have new information to bring? Usually not.
    1. Is the timing right? This is part of the clarification thing ... sometimes it's best to wait until the right moment to enter a fray (or start one).
    1. Is the topic or opinion of the post productive? In other words (again, it's all about clarifying), will my specific participation help generate discussion that either brings new light to a subject or helps to form a reasonable action plan? Or could it turn the heat down (helpfully) on a volatile discussion?

    The truth is, if all I want to do is vent or rail or  express myself with no productive or clarifying end in sight for the community, I believe I'm better off ranting in a Microsoft Word document and storing it on my hard drive.

    Words engaged in in community are communal words and should have a communal purpose (in my view) beyond the luxury of personal psychotherapy.

    On the other hand, I've never held back an unpopular opinion that I really thought needed to be said in order to move a conversation forward or help draw a clarifying line in the sand. An example of this was the post I did months ago on how money is to liberals what sex is to conservatives ... dirty, the ultimate temptation, unable to be trusted with, etc. I knew at the time exactly where this would lead -- and indeed, I was right. It became known as the "Greed is Good" post over at Booman, even though I clearly said money was only a neutral tool and NOWHERE did I remotely hint that the constant and avaricious pursuit of acquiring it was a virtue.

    Anyway ... sorry to go on so long ... I guess it all comes down to clarity for me. Will my contribution productively clarify anything? When I'm feeling the most heated, usually not.

  •  Sometimes fear is a good thing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coigue

    Fear of being attacked on this site has slowed me down and caused me to rethink a few rash statements I have almost posted.  After some reflection, I have posted more thoughtful comments and received a positive response.

    So I see only tatters of clearness through a pervading obscurity - Annie Dillard -6.88, -5.33

    by illinifan17 on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:47:59 PM PDT

    •  Jayzus! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming

      Listen to yourself -- ". . .caused me to rethink a few rash statements. . ."  How do you know they were rash?  How do you not know they were rational in the face of hundreds of other people's rash statements?

      You're gonna let a bunch of us foaming at the mouth liberals tell you what to think just because of the collective noise we can make on this site at times?

      Now and then a good troll rating can be invigorating to the system.

      I know from personal experience!  Hell, I even invite people to troll rate me when I feel my comment is against the DK mainstream.  As in --you're invited to do so now.  Doesn't bother me.  All you've done is use up one of your daily alloteds.

      They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

      by Limelite on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:12:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I am SHOCKED (0+ / 0-)

    that so many people are afraid to post stuff here (97, in the poll).

    Is that because we are liberal handwringers? I don't think so.

    After all, it's MUCH scarier to stand up for a candidate door-to-door or over the phone than it is to voice an opinion on-line. It's also much scarier to defend a candidate than to tear one down. My use of dKos is to learn, and I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO ALLOW MYSELF TO BE WRONG.

  •  Yes, I have (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    espresso, Maryscott OConnor

    I'm ashamed to say it, but I have never voted for a Democrat.  Only Republicans.

    Of course, that's because I trust them to keep me safe, naturally.  But still.

    I just hang out on liberal blogs for the recipes.

    [Non-snarky postscript -- I'm voting for Berman, but should you choose to vote for DeLear, you should go for it.  He doesn't have a chance, and a few green votes in our district will keep Berman honest.]

    November 7, 2006: Republigeddon

    by The Termite on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:50:19 PM PDT

  •  This is my favorite website (0+ / 0-)

    but there is a large element that will always and only vote for the Democrat.  Whenever this is challenged, people respond that KOS intends this to be a website for Democrats. Flame away!  :)

    In the beginning, IT created a mountain, some trees and a midget. www.venganza.org

    by CA JAY on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:50:32 PM PDT

  •  No. (9+ / 0-)

    I have diary up now about how ascared I am of homos.

    Now all the homos are in my diary, making fun of me for being ascared of them.

    But just to be on the safe side, I'm standing with my back against a wall as I type this.

    WOMAN: My cat's in the tree! MY FATHER (a fireman): He'll come down. WOMAN: No he won't! MY FATHER: Have you ever seen a cat skeleton in a tree?

    by Bob Johnson on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:53:09 PM PDT

  •  I've been writing a similar diary in my head for (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor, chiniqua

    days. In my case, it's not betrayal of the Party, but betrayal of The Reality-Based Community that brings the wrath of the patrols. The Reality-Based Patrols, of course.

    It's not that I don't value reality, or science. Overwhelmingly I do. But in the zeal to avoid seeming gullible, or tin-foily, or just kooky, people here can demand studies cited and proof published before allowing any discussion whatsoever. The problem with this, of course, is that if discussion is limited to the already proven, the assumption is that everything is already known.

    I hav to say though that my deciding not to post about a subject I know will stir up the RB Patrols, it's not because of cowardice or disapproval as much as who needs the freaking aggravation.

  •  I'm a Natural Contrarian at Times (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor

    as my comments indicate on The Ethics of Google Bombing by tbrucegodfrey.

    C'mon, what can the DKos community actually do to you?  Shave your head and send you to Iraq?  

    What seems to be the subject of your diary is that when it's time to "gut check" one's personal ethics, we find it easier to excuse our posts under the influence of our own Daily Kos noise machine.  We tend -- and it seems to be a near universal human behavior -- to excuse ourselves, using crutches like, "everybody else is doing it" and "if I don't do it then someone else will."  And in your case, "if I do it, they won't love me."

    Gag.

    But don't be too hard on yourself.  Post what you can live with and don't beat yourself up about it.  But watch out, post unsubstantiated crap and I'll be all over your ass.

    They burn our children in their wars and grow rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

    by Limelite on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 12:58:17 PM PDT

  •  WTF? (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coigue, Elise, TheBlaz, suicide blonde

    I think approximately 25% of my comments are made for the SOLE PURPOSE of eliciting a reaction contrary to popular opinion.

    If people here are afraid to speak their mind about a subject out of fear of being criticized, then I wonder how bad their actual lives are like. Sheesh. This is a fucking blog--what you say here isn't exactly life-changing.

  •  MSOC: (7+ / 0-)

    I don't undertand any of this.

    You are afraid to post because of what?

    You'll be yelled at?

    You'll be typed at in ALL CAPS?

    You won't be loved and pushed straight to the top of the reccommend list?

    What will happen to you?

    Also, SYFPH was about bitching about shit that can't be changed or bitching, for the sake of bitching, about something that isn't currently on the table.

    During Kerry it was diaries about why Kerry SHOULDN'T be the nominee AFTER he was already the nomineee.

    And the "no Hillary in 2008" (which is what the diary was really about) is about how 2008 is utterly irrelevant at the moment.

    People we screaming about censorship in that diary, but no one was trolled into disappearing and if the diarist felt so strongly he\she should leave the thing up.

    The cult-factor is in the eye of the community and is in effect when you buy into the concept that you must be loved.

    If you feel strongly... say it... and if you're not loved... so what?

    RedState.com: nowhere can you find a smaller, more irrelevant group of morally bankrupt sycophants with the IQ of a dozen decapitated squirrels.

    by JeffLieber on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:00:27 PM PDT

  •  Spare me the fucking navel-gazing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    JeffLieber

    until after the election.  We're not talking an eternity.  We're two weeks out.  Kos' precedent-setting decision to attack Ford today was asinine and dumbfounding.  I don't think two weeks of strict party discipline is a lot to expect when there's as much at stake as there is.  

    Unfortunately, by setting that precedent, he's invited countless diaries like this that will suck up all the oxygen from substantive diaries that might actually make a difference when our nation's future is decided in 12 days.

  •  I don't fear the community or MSOC's hypocrisy (5+ / 0-)

    and don't pull posts for them or anyone else anymore.

    I don't fear what a potential employer might conclude, though I usually stall until I remember that I don't want to work for anyone who punishes political participation.

    I don't fear being called out, vilified without the right of rebuttal or outed. MSOC's already done it, and it wasn't that bad. When wingnuts attacked me using her post as evidence... What can you say about someone who gives ammunition to the enemy?

    After MSOC's slandered me, what do I have to fear online?

    "Slander"?!? Well, yes.

    MSOC, having come to the meta-jesus on issues of civility used me as her example of the bile vomiting demons that live on DailyKos, of someone even worse than she ever was. The difference, of course, is that I was attacking someone who demanded I sign on to an income disclosure program more invasive than those of elected officials or concede that I'm a whore for whatever advertiser wanders along. Prior to her conversion, Mary Scott O'Connor earned her name ripping into Democrats, Greens and other dissenting progressives for being dissenting Democrats, Greens and progressives.

    Yes, it's very nice that you've seen the light MSOC. But your persistent concerns about civility belie continuing intolerance masked in hypocrisy.

    At least I'm consistent in my behavior. I don't lash into someone because they do or don't support a candidate (there might be occasions where that was not the case, but I doubt it). I try to elevate my vitriol above the level of f-bombs and cliches. I don't pretend that everything is worthy of sound and reasonable debate, because it just isn't so.

    When a diary is so wrong, so stupid or so hateful that reasoned debate only gives it credibility it otherwise lacks, there's MSOC arguing that we should treat it with civilized discourse.

    I don't subscribe to that point of view.

  •  My straight answer. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    coigue, Turbonerd

    Haven't read anyone else's comment, because frankly, I don't care about your opinion.

    Of course I self censor.  I have folders full of stuff that was written in heat or too late, where my argument was not quite as strong after research as it was before it, where somebody posted first and yet there was too much effort to just delete.

    My private graveyard.

    And some of it I axed because it was not as funny as I thought it was.  I write for an audience, you among others, and some stuff people get on TV leaves the National Press Club sitting on their hands.

    I'm never afraid to push the post button, it's just that there are other places to be active.  I try never to take out my frustrations at one place in another and to make sure my posts stand on their own.

    So if I ever opine that I think a topic is more appropriate in another forum, I'm really giving you my very best advice.

  •  my sense is that it's ok to vote Green (0+ / 0-)

    if the following parameters are met:

    1. The Democratic candidate is beyond safe (i.e., the vote really doesn't matter, so why not keep him/her honest);
    1. The Green candidate is not being funded by Republicans; and
    1. You actually know and like the positions of the candidate him/herself.  Actual candidate stances can vary wildly.

    Ever wish there were One Big Wiki-Style Clearinghouse for all the GOP Scandals? Well now there is.

    by thereisnospoon on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:10:32 PM PDT

  •  Well "Great and Powerful MSOC"...You asked! (9+ / 0-)

    As a matter of fact I am afraid to post what I think right this moment.
    What I think of this Diary.
    What I think of it's timing.
    I am afraid to post that it looks to me like a Trojan Horse you rode in on.  That you post about being a Coward yet this is the third diary I have read of yours where, IMO, you are poking a stick in the ant pile.  

    There I said it.  Defenders Pile On! But first let me close with:

    I remember when I first 'met' Maryscott.  I remember when she went on the Faux news show.  My boyfriend and I felt like we knew her!  We watched and hung on her every word.  I remember when a new Maryscott diary would come out and WHAM, within minutes, it would be on the rec. list.  I remember my guilty pleasure when reading Jerome's diary about meeting his object of infatuation, MSOC.  
    I enjoyed getting to know Maryscott over on MLW.  But the most connected I felt was when I read the front page article detailing the loss of her Father in the VietNam war.  I related at a frighteningly intimate level with her anger expressed in the article, over the War in Iraq.  I related to the O'Doul's in a wine glass.  I felt like 'soul-sisters'.
    So it is through that prism I make these comments:
    Soul-Sister,  When life is quiet and comfy enjoy. You do not have to have chaos around you in order to feel alive.  
    And yes, I get the irony, I wish I took my own advice and never poked this stick=)

    •  Thank you. (0+ / 0-)

      I hope you haven't suffered unduly on my behalf.

      : )

      The timing... again with the timing. All I can say is what I've said before: I don't think I ought to have to wait till the "appropriate" time to post something here or anywhere else. I've seen plenty of diaries on the RD list in the past couple weeks that haven't a thing to do with the '06 elections. It's all politics, all the time -- but only when the topic is dissent from the Democratic party and candidates are people chastised for posting "distractions."

      That's that, realy. I poked the stick because it was what was going on in my head and I wanted to post about it -- and I crossposted it because it feels outright SNEAKY to post diaries at MLW that have to do with DKos and NOT crosspost them. Like telling tales out of school, you know?

      One of the things I like about my diminished presence here at DKos is the fact that it ISN'T any longer a foregone conclusion that something I post gets on the RD list. Frankly, that fact made me self-censor more than any other; I felt compelled to post ONLY those things which would be WORTHY of the RD list, you see...

      And sometimes, I just want to post something that SHOULDN'T be on that list. Something that spends its few moments on the diaries page and then drops off with the rest of its little diary friends...

      This diary, for instance -- I specifically refrained from telling people I'd like it recommended. MOST of the time, I refrain from telling people I'd like them to recommend my work, though often I tell them it wouldn't BOTHER me if they did. Sometimes, I actually ask people NOT to recommend. But I resent having to do that. I wish people would use their common sense and recommend my work ONLY when they truly feel it belongs in a highly visible slot like the RD list's.

      Blah blah blah -- I post about a tenth as much as I used to, and STILL I'm sick to death of myself.

  •  IRV is your savior (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    chiniqua, lotlizard, karmsy

    Independent Runoff Voting allows you to vote for your preferred candidate first, even if they would normally be a "spoiler" candidate.  And if enough people marked the spoiler candidate, they win!  It makes it impossible for the progressive vote to be split between two good candidates, and have the republican win.  

    The whole tone of discussions about third-party candidates will COMPLETELY change with IRV.

    flash animation of how it works:
    http://www.sfrcv.com/...

    wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Push for IRV in your community, and this whole issue becomes moot.  San Francisco has passed it, and many other locations will pass it this election.

    http://www.fairvote.org/...

  •  Perhaps more useful question? (0+ / 0-)

    I don’t think that is the best question

    Have you ever consciously decided not to post your honest opinion about something--  here at Daily Kos or anywhere else --because you didn't want to deal with the negative reaction and possible hostility or abuse you imagined might be the response from the community or some of its most vocal or powerful members?

    There are few human beings on the planet who don't self censor due to perceived social norms. So my question is - Does the Kos environment induce more or less fear that the other social environments where you might consider sharing that opinion?

    By the way the fear is natural: no fear indicates sociopathy. Courage is what you do in face of that fear.

    We are what we think, all that we are arises with out thoughts, with out thoughts we make the world.

    by holder on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:14:56 PM PDT

  •  Good Lord MSOC, (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stevej

    what's to be afraid of?  We are all sweetness and light here.

    Seriously, I post what I believe.  I've been here a pretty long time and I really don't care if I get troll rated or lose my TU status.  Meh.  Whatever.

  •  i've seen the enemy . . . (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    CalDoc, cowgirl

    I have never used a troll rating, although I have definitely run into some trolls. However, unfortunately, I have seen troll ratings used where people simply disagreed.

    Anyone, regardless of political orientation, can be rigid about his/her views and can exhibit a lack of tolerance. We all walk that fine line. It's good to be reminded that we are all at risk of behaving badly (i.e., like the administration squelching debate).

    And if 2/3 of the people voting indicate that they refrain and/or hestitate to post certain opinions for fear of being flamed, well, that's a "hmmmmm" moment for me. To truly succeed, I believe we need to get disenfranchised R's participating here. Is this tent sufficiently big?

    "You can count on Americans to do the right thing after they've tried everything else." -- Winston Churchill

    by bleeding heart on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:16:58 PM PDT

  •  Yes and no. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    matt2525, Elise, karmsy

    There's nothing I've ever decided I couldn't say here.  

    If I believe it, I'm willing to stand by it and know that I have nothing real to fear here.

    That said, have I thought carefully about the way I said certain things?  Yes, for many reasons, primarily as a basic principle of communication - saying something the way it's most likely to lead to productive discussion.  

    And have I thought about the timing?  Yes.  Here, as in any relationship, there are better and worse times and you're more likely to get where you want to go if you choose carefully.

  •  I didn't read it all, skipped to the end. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stephdray, JonFerguson

    But I get the gist: dissent good because it is dissent, majority opinion bad because it's majority opinion.

    Here's my vote: for every diary that is withheld due to fear of a negative reaction, there's ten that are posted for the purpose of provoking any reaction, including negative ones, and piling up lots of comments.

    It's the proto-fascism

    by Inland on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:18:04 PM PDT

  •  It's not always politic to say what you think (0+ / 0-)

    Like any thinking human being, I tailor what I say to the audience who will hear it.

  •  Nope. (6+ / 0-)

    Have you ever consciously decided not to post your honest opinion about something--  here at Daily Kos or anywhere else --because you didn't want to deal with the negative reaction and possible hostility or abuse you imagined might be the response from the community or some of its most vocal or powerful members?

    And I am sick to death of the whining from those that are or those that do and then get upset by the reaction. I have been in nasty, knock-down drag-out fights. Guess what? It happens in every aspect of life. It happens in my business, my family and my marriage. And I don't whine about it. I accept that it is a fact of life and go on.

    "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

    by Mike S on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:25:11 PM PDT

    •  Guess what? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kdrivel, cowgirl

      There isn't a scintilla of whining in the diary.

      Guess what else? You should have skipped reading it, knowing as you do that you hate everything I write; and you should have skipped writing a comment, knowing as you must how posting a comment in a discussion inevitably leads to that discussion CONTINUING, instead of dying down.

      But guess what else? You didn't skip reading it and you didn't skip writing it -- and that makes your "sick to death" statement look just a little bit like disingenuous bullshit.

      •  Good God! (0+ / 0-)

        What the FUCK is wrong with you? Since when have I "hated everything you write?"

        Get a grip MSOC. I have defended you even when I totally disagreed with you. Maybe you are mistaking me for Art Gilroy. And there are more whines from people saying they are being censored or attacked for dissenting opinions than ever these days. Hell, there are blogs deicated to just that all over the place.

        "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

        by Mike S on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 11:03:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Mike... (0+ / 0-)

          I'm sorry. I didn, in fact, get you mixed up with another Mike.

          Also, am not in any psychological shape to be posting ANYTHING this past week and shouldn't have. BIG mistake. I'm really sorry.

          I think I just have to stop blogging; it's turning out to be detrimental to my mental and physical health, as well as my wish to be at peace with people.

          Please forgive my faux pas -- I'm very embarrassed.

          •  No worries Maryscott. (0+ / 0-)

            I've made the same type of mistake on far more than one occassion.

            I still luv ya and always will.

            "I was Rambo in the disco. I was shootin' to the beat. When they burned me in effigy. My vacation was complete." Neil Young. Mideast Vacation.

            by Mike S on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 01:41:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Truth be known, (0+ / 0-)

    I have posted opinions here that HAVE drawn fire--based on overly emotional misreadings, I believe.

    A couple of Kossacks that I recall, took exception to my discussion of ways the culture of online activism has affected "political correctness" in the progressive movement.

    Apparently, for daring to suggest that 'PC' was more than an empty Rush Limbaugh slur of the Left, I wasn't a "real liberal"--was, in fact, a "bigot," in the words of one commenter.

    I was taken aback. In truth, I felt stung, finding my ideas so misunderstood. If I'd known in advance of the hostility it would provoke, would I still have posted my controversial essay?

    Yes.

    The one thing I would have done differently is to moderate the comments better, saying something to the my flamers like the following:

    "You can disagree with me, that's fine. But I object to your uncivil tone, name-calling, etc.. Please go away. Come back when you can show some respect."

  •  If not now, when? (4+ / 0-)

    There is no election or event that is more important than pursuing individual liberty and justice.

  •  exigencies of life .... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor

    When so much money and power is manifested as it is with Daily Kos, the exigencies of life come into serious play.

    If I had anything to do with Hillary Clinton's presidential bid I too would piss on any fire lit anywhere especially an increasingly important venue such as here at Kos.  I don't think that will change much.  

    Yearly Kos by the way changes the dynamics somewhat and without it I doubt daily Kos would be as powerful as it is.

    Don't get me wrong, if I had my druthers, I'd hope things were actually more democratic and fair.  But when I was younger I wanted to be taller and look like Robert Redford instead of Karl Rove too but shit happens. donnchaknow?

    And the way I see it she will get the prize along with Obama as vp no matter what.  Anyone so clearly obsessed with the strategy and the chess of it has a great advantage.  Nobody, nobody, nobody, could be as bad as any Republican candidate.

    When I get hurt feelings here and at other web sites like yours what I think is:
    "It is what it is."

    (I was drafting a similar note when the system went down apologies if this is duplicated somerwhere..)

  •  Good heavens MSOC... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    stephdray, tryptamine

    You'd think that large leather-clad bouncer types in orange (read: KOS) jumpsuits were coming to beat down your door and snatch you away in the dead of night.

    Relax!  You're among friends!  We all can shout, rant and rave.  Just because someone other than you occasionally shouts louder or more effectively (and I say that only because you admit they get the better of you), doesn't mean you have to go into hiding.

    By all means, vote Green!  Just be prepared to find that most people on this site will passionately not agree with you.

    By all means, tear down every announced and expected Dem Presidential candidate in 2008!  Just be prepared to find that most people on this site will passionately not agree with you.

    The great thing about being a Democrat right now is the almost overwhelming sense of belonging to a unified plan of action: Oppose Bush and all his minions in an unflinching effort to regain power.

    In turn, one of the most disturbing things about being a Democrat right now:  When we win, that unifying force will be replaced with faction as each sub-group returns to their own respective agenda.

    There is no shaking that feeling of nervousness at running against the current Wave.  That I will grant you.  But you are to be commended, as are all who post here, for taking the plunge.

    "You can't change the world, but you can change the facts." - Martin Gore

    by aloha and mahalo on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:33:02 PM PDT

  •  No, I'm not afraid (4+ / 0-)

    Which is probably a character flaw on my part.  When I feel that I am morally right about something, I can't shut up about it.

    Which is one of the reasons I'm not afraid to tell people when I think voting for a Green candidate is not a moral choice.  And why.  (Diary to follow.)

    People can dissent from that opinion all they want.  I've got no government badge to supress dissent.  I have no authority over anybody but my reasoning power, and their desire to keep my good opinion of them.  And those are both legitimate political tools.

    If people weren't ashamed to vote for Strom Thurmond for President, the idea that their friends would consider them racists might have tipped the balance.  Without it, he might have been President.

    So my feeling is this. If you're not willing to lose friends over a principle you hold dear, then it's time either to re-examine the importance of the friends or the importance of the principle.

    Stephanie Dray
    of Jousting for Justice, a lefty blog with a Maryland tilt.

    by stephdray on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:33:40 PM PDT

  •  Lack of energy (0+ / 0-)

    Is that the same as being lazy?  I have avoided posting comments and have not posted a diary in a long time because I lack the energy to deal with the responses and if I didn't respond it would imply agreement with the comments. Come the 2008 presidential I'll join the fray again.

    Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

    by SMucci on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:34:44 PM PDT

  •  What's amazing to me (6+ / 0-)

    is that a diary written by MSOC that is solely about MSOC is sitting on the rec list while a diary by Congressman John Conyers sits with the common riff-raff.

    Support Will Pryor for Congress [TX-32]

    by Whiskey Sam on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:35:06 PM PDT

  •  The answer to your question is NO. (8+ / 0-)

    Emphatically.

    If I think or believe something is true then I stand by it no matter how controversial it is.

    Now...does that mean I'm not sensitive to issues like timing (which MissLaura mentioned above...although by the time I post this...who knows how many comments will separate ours). There are times when the tone is really important to the comment.

    As for SYFPH...I don't have a problem with SYFPH...not at all. I think there is a TIME to engage in conversations like this one. ANd when we have...what...12 days left before the most important election in a LONG time, NOW is not the time to have meta conversations about fear.

    Frankly, I don't understand why people FEAR strangers on the internet...and maybe this comment IS insensitive of me, but at the moment I just don't have the time to be polite...but seriously, I'm not here for popularity. I have ideas...I have things that motivate me. I'm here to fix our country. I'm here to motivate people to be more active and more engaged with politics...and that means getting them to volunteer and hold their politicians accountable. I don't care if everyone here hates me or loves me...what I DO care about is whether or not people here are motivated to DO more...to participate in Democracy more...and to help elect MORE Democrats.

    As far as voting Green...I won't do it. I won't do it at a local level...I won't at a state level, I won't at a national level. Period. EVERY election is important....and the more good Democrats we elect to the lowest offices...school board, county clerk, etc., the deeper our bench is in the future for the bigger seats...and the more engaging our primaries will become.

    As for diaries about 2008...I've said it before and I'll say it again...write as many as you want after November 8th 2006...and I don't care who you are...even if you're Markos, I'll ask you to refrain from doing that until November 8th because we have 12 days left to save our fucking Democracy. And I'm not exaggerating. Democracy is at stake here...so no, I am not afraid of anyone here...and NO I will never stop telling people to STFPH's when they are wasting everyone's time that should be used helping Democrats win.

    This is as coherent a response I can make at the moment...I have to say I'm incredibly frustrated at seeing this on the Rec list when we literally have 12 days left to save our fucking Democracy. But whatever...I guess people will recommend anything to avoid phonebanking or canvassing.

  •  Be responsible for your own courage (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tryptamine, Elise, DemiGoddess

    DONT expect the rest of us to make the [Kossack] world all cushy for you.

    That would ruin it for ME!

  •  Dissent is Patriotic (0+ / 0-)

    That applies to the nation as a whole and it applies to every group and relationship we involve ourselves in.  If we don't love it enough to want it to be better we shouldn't waste our time on it.

    I've voted for Democrats, Libertarians and Greens.  I chose the one I think will do the best job and I make damn sure the democrat knows why I didn't vote for her/him.

    I hope Hillary doesn't get the nomination to be the democratic presidential candidate.  That would serve to galvanize the opposition while putting forward a candidate with few progressive credentials--a lose/lose proposition in my book.  Bless your little heart, YMMV or SYFPH.

    "The Universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it." Marcus Aurelius

    by Mosquito Pilot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:41:07 PM PDT

  •  I Voted No in the Poll (4+ / 0-)

    Maybe I just agree with most of the rest of this community.

    Maybe I'm too damn thick to see it when someone gets abusive.

    Maybe I could give a rat's ass if they do get abusive and I tune in to it.

    Dunno - but I don't think I've ever refrained from posting something I feel passionate about because I'm worried someone might go after me for it.

    Hells bells - if I can post diary after diary after diary after diary about the genocide in Darfur - Something I'm VERY passionate about - only to see it get ignored and slip down the list of diaries faster than a kid on a waterslide... (and that's pretty disheartening) then I probably am too thick to see what others think is important.  Or in this case - not so important.

    Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

    by Alegre on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:43:56 PM PDT

    •  With One Exception (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Maryscott OConnor

      After thinking on this a little I realize that I HAVE in fact refrained from posting on one subject here...

      GUN CONTROL.

      I've lost count of the number of times I've been glommed on to by guys clinging to their so-called 2nd amendment rights when I've dared to say I'm a million mom marcher who'd rather not see assault rifles on our streets and guns in our stores, bars, churches and schools.  I'm accused of being mis-informed and demands are made of me as to what the difference is between the banned assault rifles and the stuff that's otherwised allowed on our streets.  They ask if I'm aware of the conversion kits out there blah blah blah.

      All I want is safer streets and call me crazy (!!!!!) but I feel safer when there are fewer guns out there.

      So yeah, I guess I have been guilty of self-censorship where this issue's concerned.

      Other than that - I pretty much post what I think.

      Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. -8.75 / -6.10

      by Alegre on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:10:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  that is all well and good... (0+ / 0-)

        but enforcing gun laws just pushes the guns to the underground and actually makes things less safe. Think about how violent the illegal drug trade is, and think about how much more the illegal gun trade would be. All we have to do is look at history when we banned alcohol in this country, Al Capone and his buddies in the mob loved it.  

        Ask yourself, do we really need another war on something? We have the war on drugs, the war on poverty and the war on terror, and none of those things have gone away.

        absolute freedom for one individual undoubtedly limits the freedom of another.

        by jbou on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 04:50:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  oh good god (9+ / 0-)

    again?

    YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

    by buhdydharma on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:45:41 PM PDT

    •  shhh (5+ / 0-)

      Daily Kos is the biggest soapbox on the internets!

      It's a secret, don't tell -- shit, you went and told everyone, didn't you?


      They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are / But they're never the ones to fight or to die... -- Jackson Browne

      by Page van der Linden on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:57:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why is it... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kdrivel

      that people feel free to come into the discussion of a diary they didn't like -- and shit all over the diarist for daring to post something they didn't like?

      I just don't get it. You've posted stuff (that got on the RD list, too, by the way) I didn't care for. I never took the time to go into the discussions and let you know just how disgusted I was with it. I figured, hey, there's enough negativity on the world, why should I contribute to it?

      I don't understand why it is you felt it absolutely necessary to post that comment. Piling on? Surely you didn't think all those comments were laudatory? Just had to add your own two cents?

      It's perplexing as hell. You seem a decent person. Why bother with the nastiness? And yeah, it's nasty. It's superior, it's judgemental and it's beneath you, frankly. The diary isn't your cup of tea -- do you read EVERY diary posted here? You obviously don't care for mine -- you've made that perfectly clear in your comments thereto. Why do you continue to read them, and comment on them? Does it give you a jolt of pleasure to shit on me?

      •  Pleasure? (5+ / 0-)

        like you get everytime you come over here and tell us we are bullies and stifle dissent?

        Here's your words right back at you...

        It's perplexing as hell. You seem a decent person. Why bother with the nastiness? And yeah, it's nasty. It's superior, it's judgemental and it's beneath you, frankly.

        Thats how I feel whenever you flit over to tell me how much I suck for posting here. I thought you were the queen of tough skin and yelling at people? Now when  I point out that you are being insinuating and demeaning and critical...I'M being nasty? If you are trying to turn over a new leaf and be nice...you are not succeeding. I keep giving you the benefit of the doubt...and am always proved wrong. Again attack the real enemies...not dkos.

        Perhaps you just don't realize that you are doing it...perhaps you just can't help yourself...perhaps you don't recognize your own passive aggressive relationship with Dkos. But everytime you post here it you have something .....nasty....to say about the site.

        Why?

        YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

        by buhdydharma on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 05:58:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay, dude. (0+ / 0-)

          You win, I lose. You're right, I'm wrong, you're everything, I'm nothing.

          You and I do not see eye to eye on a few issues. We have, it seems, a MASSIVE personality conflict, as well as, possibly, some distinct ideological differences. You don't like me, and I'm increasingly less than fond of you.

          So, how about we just agree to disagree, and stop with the unproductive "conversations?" Because, frankly, I see no earthly reason to continue these ongoing snipefests -- other than to keep our knives sharp.

          I'm conceding everything to you, here and now. I wish you well.

      •  Oh and EVERYBODY is welcome in my diaries.. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Avila, vcmvo2, Nightprowlkitty

        whether they are critical or not...stop by and tell me what you don't like, we will talk about it!....i don't stifle dissent in my diaries.

        YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

        by buhdydharma on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 06:00:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, you don't. (3+ / 0-)

          And it was what Maryscott said to you that made me break my vow not to post in her diary, as it is an exercise in futility.  You sure don't need me to defend you, buhdy, but this was the last straw for me.  Everyone is welcome in your diaries -- I've very rarely observed you say anything remotely negative about anyone -- unlike this diarist.  Over and over again I'm hearing about this "group" of Kossaks who are so nasty and hateful and immature, and I'm tired of it.  But to put you in their number -- yeesh.

        •  You're welcome in my diaries, as is anyone... (0+ / 0-)

          I just don't understand what you could possibly be getting out of diaries and discussions thereof that so thoroughly disgust and dismay you.

          •  oh give it a break (6+ / 0-)

            this act is wearing thin....this just in: Maryscott OConnor is NOT a victim!

            And when you act like there is some kind of angry mob after you you just look ridiculous.

            I come in your diaries because you are MSOC, just like everyone else does, and when MSOC trashes the site and people I love, I am going to say something about it.

            Can you PLEASE think of a more contructive way to get the attention you need to maintain the persona? I KNOW what a psychic and emotional charge it is to have hundreds of people listen and comment on what you say....but why NOT use your power for good, Luke?

            Do something constructive with your fame, lift people up. Get them fired up! This diary accomplishes what?

            It apparently doesn't make you feel good...it didn't make half the commenters feel good it didn't make me feel good.

            Bring back the OLD MSOC or find a new one...one with substance and fire instead of angst and passive agressive nastiness. Use your power for good.

            Then people will LOVE YOU for a reason...instead of just the fact that you are MSOC. Seems much more satisfying to me. Seems much healthier to me!

            YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

            by buhdydharma on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 08:44:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

              •  jeez! (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tlh lib, Nightprowlkitty

                you are really into it!

                i can't help but offer when i see someone in pain, so...

                ...hey MSOC, e-mail me if you want to talk, maybe we can find a way to get you out of this funk. I'm pretty good at that sort of thing.

                Otherwise the best i have to offer is...enjoy your suffering. And I'm sorry you have to go through this.

                YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

                by buhdydharma on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 09:29:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Are you getting off on this? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  buhdydharma

                  Seriously -- I want to know. Is this ENJOYABLE for you?

                  •  no Maryscott...not at all! (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tlh lib, Nightprowlkitty, DemiGoddess

                    You are an asset to the planet and the Blogsphere. I would very much like to help however I can. Helping people is what I do.

                    I would much rather try to help instead of criticize. I LIKE you, always have. I am NOT afraid, thats why I speak my mind in your diaries and always continue to talk to you til you stop. I am not afraid and would love to help you not be afraid too.

                    YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

                    by buhdydharma on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 09:52:29 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  What a despicable ... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    tlh lib

                    ... accusation to make.  Do you really believe Buhdy is saying this to get a sexual thrill?  That he is a sadist?  Did you read his post?  I did.  And I agree with him.  Look at your diary again.  You speak of a "small" group of Daily Kos posters, who are "vocal" and "powerful."  And you trash them, calling them hateful, calling them mean, calling them nasty and judgmental.  Do YOU enjoy that?  Do YOU get off on that?  Can you see how unfair and nasty your comment is?

                    Can it ever occur to you that your dismissive teen-age "whatever, dude" blow-off could just make a situation worse?  That it can be considered rude and mean as well?

                    No, it's everyone else's fault.  And now you are lowering yourself to accusing someone of being a sadist and getting a thrill out of "hurting" you.  Yeah, real enjoyable.  You just don't get that you are attacking people who others here value, just as there are many here who value you and will attack those who don't like what you have to say.

                    •  No, not literally, for god's sake. (0+ / 0-)

                      You are walking into the middle of a conversation you haven't been following for very long and I would advise you that your insertion of yourself here is highly inappropriate, given the subtext about which you know nothing.

                    •  One more thing and I'll shut up (0+ / 0-)

                      Could you possibly take a step back and consider the possibility that you read everything I write with a bias that makes you interpret some perfectly innocous statements negatively, and some mildly neurotic posts as despicable?

                      budhy and I are just fine. As for you, I cannot do anything more than apologise for any pain I may have caused you and any offense I may have given, and leave it at that.

                      •  There are lots of possibilities ... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LynChi, Kevin in Long Beach

                        ... and perhaps you can also take a step back and consider that you have written several diaries now that have specifically criticized posters here at Daily Kos, using specifically insulting terms.

                        I'm glad you and buhdy are fine -- very hard to grasp that when you talk about the "massive" personality differences and that you are growing "less fond" of him but hey, that's great if you two are ok with each other then I'm genuinely happy to hear that.

                        Please do not apologize to me again, Maryscott.  It's too 12-step and formulaic for me -- an apology has to mean something, show some change in behavior for me to believe its sincerity.

                        •  Actually, (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          sfRenter

                          they haven't SPECIFICALLY criticised anyone. I haven't named names, nor described them in any but the vaguest terms. Do you even knowo of whom I speak when I use the word "mob?"

                          As for apologies -- you got it. I meant my apology sincerely, but if you won't accept it, so be it. I still don't understand why you insist on bothering with me in the first place, but to each his own.

                          Have a nice life.

                          •  You are ... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LynChi, Kevin in Long Beach

                            ... parsing words again, but that's fine, seems to be all you know how to do when it comes to this subject.  It doesn't matter whether you point out specific people or not.  You are characterizing an entire group of people and using insulting terms to do so and then claiming no one should challenge you on that.

                            Please stop with your "have a nice life" nonsense.  If you don't want to respond to me again then don't.  It's not "you" I am "bothering with," it's what you write.  You just don't seem to understand that.  It's not personal, as much as you may like to think so.  It is your writing.  Period.

  •  9/11 conspiracies (0+ / 0-)

    I actually give them an intellectual audience. I'm not rabid about them like a lot in the 9/11 Truth community, and if it were to be 1000% conclusive that everything that's been printed in the textbooks about them is in fact true, my world will not end, but--particularly given everything that's happened/been revealed in the last couple years--I find them more and more plausible. Still, I typically don't discuss them outside of a small handful of people--too much of an "out-there" stigma.

    Sign next to an abandoned steel mill in Portsmouth, OH:

    "Coming Soon: Wal-Mart Super Center"

    by Detroit in Appalachia on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:47:56 PM PDT

  •  Not politics... (0+ / 0-)
    ...but I have figured out that this is NOT the place to post about religion with abandon. Not if I don't want to ignite a huge flamewar with PastorDan and ElizabethD.

    Thelema Without Apologies / Kossacks! Become a Precinct Captain!

    by maxomai on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:48:21 PM PDT

  •  Once again (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor, clammyc

    you've shown a lot of courage even if a bit tenatively to say things that others can't.

    I've pulled two diaries because of the resulting pile-on that ensued from what I was saying and I wasn't even advocating an unpopular opinion. I made the mistake of listening to one and of offering it up for discussion.

    Nowadays, I'm very very hesitant to post diaries like clammyc did the other day where he talked about skewed elections. He got away with it, I think for two reasons - he's a biggie here and he presented his discussion very well. I'm not and I don't.

    See, I also am mostly a coward that way. My lifelong winning strategy as a leader in my business is to gain allies without wielding power.

    Here at DKos I'm a TU which gives me some respect but I'm not MSCO, clammyc, occams hatchett, Jerome a Paris and others all of whom I consider biggies here but who give me some measure of respect when I post a comment. Even Armando has been civil to me when I make a mistake - go figure on that one.

    No, it's not these giants whom I fear it's the piranha-like frenzy from others that results from saying the wrong thing in the wrong place. I was more than once at the point of writing the gbcw diary but just couldn't do it so I stuck it out. I know of two people personally who dropped out because of incidents where unpopular comments caused a rock-throwing melee they didn't recover from. We lost two very talented writers and thinkers who just didn't have the makeup to fight and adapt to the pack. It's neither good nor bad for DKos; it just is.

    I personally thank you MSOC. You are a giant person to me.

    -4.25, -6.87: Someday, after the forest fire of the Right has died we'll say "Whew, I'm happy that's over."

    by CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:51:21 PM PDT

  •  I realized (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor

    I realized awhile ago that real freedom comes from not giving a shit about what others think of you. Once you are able to seriously begin to not care, you are on your way to real freedom.

    People ask me why I am always so stress free. Its pretty simple, first don't get pulled into the materialistic world of more is better, and secondly , don't give a rat ass what others think about you.

    Seriously why do you care what a stranger thinks of you.
    I care that my partner and parents, friends and siblings think I am a good person, other than that, why should I care?

    I basically do everything else in order to simply blend in and be left alone.

    mr republican, is that a flag in your pocket or are you just glad to see my son?

    by pissedpatriot on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:51:47 PM PDT

  •  Walk away (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Caldonia, MH in PA, buhdydharma

    It works in real life, it works online too.

    If someone is shoving (virtual) glowing-hot knitting needles in another poster's eyes, there's no for them to stand there and take it, unless they have some pathology where they are always finding a reason to make people feel sorry for them.

    Every forum has knock-down drag-out fights.  Every forum has its drama, whether it's people constantly stirring shit up, people who need attention, or whether it's just an emotional setting.

    Politics is always an emotional subject, especially two weeks before an election.


    They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are / But they're never the ones to fight or to die... -- Jackson Browne

    by Page van der Linden on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:57:04 PM PDT

  •  Eh? (0+ / 0-)

    Ok, I don't get it.  I read the diary, and I scanned thru the comments.

    MSOC considered voting Green, and decided against it.  This relieved her, because otherwise she'd have voted Green, posted here about it, and received abuse and scorn from everybody.  This, she feels, makes her a coward.

    Really?  Having decided to vote Democratic, now, would she also cringe at going over to, say, the freeper site and proclaiming it?  No?  I thought not!

    So the real question is, why would the DK community's scorn so affect her?  Why, I think it's because she shares our values and beliefs!  Yes, those same beliefs which presumably led her to decide that she's voting Democratic in the first place!!

    Living in CA, I have my issues with Dianne Feinstein.  I wish we had a Ned Lamont to challenge her.  But we don't, and since she's basically coasting to victory, I've debated voting Green to send her a message.

    But in the end, I won't.  Because if enough of us try that trick, she loses.  And no matter how craven she is, she is not important enough.  Her party affiliation is.  That's one reason.

    The other is, she's not all that bad.  Each state can't have a Feingold, a Kerry, a Reid or a Durbin.  I wish she'd do more to stand up to the rethugs herself, or at least lend more support to those of her colleagues who do.  But hey, at least she's no Lieberman!

    I don't know who your local Dem candidate is, and I don't know if a reasoning process similar to mine drove your own decision.  But assuming for the sake of argument that it did, a lot of people here would agree with that.  That's why this is our community, and why we care for the opinions of people here.

    That doesn't make us cowards, that's what makes us belong here!

  •  Whoa! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor, vcmvo2

    John Conyers shows up, this falls off the rec list like a lead balloon! I am thinking that all the Kossacks who were delighted with Alan Schlesinger's performance have seen the value of a third party. The third-party candidate who (I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.) the media give time to express his or her opinions is very unlikely to win. So the candidate's appearance is a kind of performance art disrupting the professionally planned script of the two other candidates.
    DKos is here to elect Democrats. However, if someone decides to support a Green candidate in an area where the Democrat is a shoo-in, they have not damaged the party. If MSOC had the influence to stir all her readers in her district to Byron DeLear, there would be little danger of the Republican winning.
    Kos is not the only thing rigged against third parties. If people are thinking even moderately short-term, it is easier to believe that one of the major parties will address your issue than to try to build a third party and get the political class to pay attention.
    Even with the I/P diaries this summer, I was not afraid to post as much as resigned that I would not convince anyone and would only get upset. I will admit that on MLW I am afraid to post. What if people say I am a spy for Kos?

    -4.00, -5.33 "My ideal World Series would be St. Louis and Detroit, but this is not likely."--Me

    by 4jkb4ia on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:03:53 PM PDT

  •  Maryscott, thank you for this post (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor

    Not that I am afraid to "speak" my mind here.  I don't take the occasional flamings personally at all.

    But what you said, needed to be said.  And I hope the community takes it to heart.

    Moreso because, although your dilemma was between Green and Dem, the same dyanamic you speak of even applies to expressed support for many Dem Primary challengers to establishment Democrats (minus Lamont, Rodriguez).

    One only needs to look at the relentless insubstantive flamings that supporters of Jonathan Tasini withstood (and quite gladly) because they had the audacity to express their concerns about Hillary Clinton's positions on a range of important issues.  Not that the flamers (with the notable exception of FleetAdmiral-j) ever once had the guts to say that they agreed with Clinton's positions on those same issues.

  •  This diary should be deleted. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Maryscott OConnor, grndrush

    How DARE the author even consider voting for anyone other than the Democrat candidate!  This author is a troll and a traitor and probably a Rovian Spy sent here to disrupt our mission of electing our team's candidates!  THIS IS A DEMOCRAT PARTY SITE!  We don't have any room here for far-lefty dissenters!

  •  LMAO! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2

    MSOC bitching about mob mentality?  She would certainly know a lot about that.  

    I still remember back when Kerry was getting swift-boated, and he was taking it all over a barrel, trying to pretend nothing was happening.  The majority mood at dKos was still "WE'RE GOING TO WIN IN A FUCKING LANDSLIDE!"  I was fucking freaking out because it was clear as daylight that Kerry would lose unless he fought back twice as hard as Rove was giving it to him.  And when I said so, I was attacked by many Kossacks, but they did so respectfully.  I remember MSOC because she was the only one who felt the need to personally insult me for pointing out what later was proven to be the truth.  What was most infuriating was that when MSOC told me I was doing the GOP's work for them (with more harsh language), I was in fact volunteering 10-15 hrs per week to the Kerry campaign!

    Clearly, MSOC cannot handle the "truth".  Her answer to unpleasant realities is to tell the bearers of bad news to "shut their fucking pie hole."  Normally I don't even read her threads but since she posted another "SYFPH" diary, presumably to gang up on those with dissenting opinions, the "outcasts" of dKos, well I wanted to speak up because as an outcast I feel sympathy for those she's telling to shut the fuck up.  I guess politics really is mostly about herd behavior and forcibly beating down anyone who isn't sufficiently in synch with the group-think, which is why before Dubya I stayed away from politics.  But I'm here now so I'll speak up for what it's worth.  

    "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

    by Subterranean on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:57:11 PM PDT

    •  Did you actually read the diary? (0+ / 0-)

      I have apologised repeatedly and continue to apologise for my past behaviour. If people like you refuse to firgive me, there is NOTHING I can do about it. I don't engage in that kind of behaviour anymore, and am deeply ashamed of having done so in the past.

      But please, feel free to continue to berate me for past mistakes I've admitted and repented, if it makes you feel better.

  •  I catch shit from time to time (0+ / 0-)

    from gay rights groupies and religious groupies. I get the same bullshit about the big tent theory. I respond with the tend covers me and I am not the tent answer.

    If anyone gets that then I needn't say anymore but for those who like to yell and scream and threaten to have me kicked off the site I need to tell you that there are Democrats who believe in carrying guns (yep!)....Democrats who think that abortion is a bad thing..(yep!)....Democrats whom do not understand why a gay person id gay..(Yep!)....and Democrats who think that a strong military is a good thing...Yep!!

    These are not solely republican traits...some of us Democrats share them also.

    And I have talked with Green Party and Libertarians whom I actually would vote for. But for this election I've got to bite my lip and vote straight D column or I'm as stupid as the GOP assholes.

    Militia General Pajamahadeen Ohio Southwest Chapter....we sale Girl Scout Cookies also

    by JellyPuddin on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 02:59:27 PM PDT

  •  Here we go again. (10+ / 0-)

    I've read this diary and the comments.  I deliberately waited to post my comment, as I am not trying to start some kind of mad flame war, maybe no one will read it, who knows.

    You ask why people who feel your diaries are self serving don't just skip them.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I have seen you criticize over and over again those posters who you don't feel behave in the way you think appropriate at Daily Kos.  I find that the height of hypocrisy, as your biggest complaint about those posters is that they are trying to "stifle" dissent or "pile on."  How is what you are doing in response to those with whom you disagree any different?

    Unfortunately for you, many of those very posters are ones that I admire a great deal.  So you see, Maryscott, I am no different than any other human being -- it's very difficult for me to see people I admire being mischaracterized and not come to their defense.

    You speak of your bad behavior in the past and how sorry you are for it.  I don't doubt your sincerity, but I do doubt the reality of any change in your behavior.  You are just on the flip side of the same thing -- whereas before you would gladly tell someone to SYFPH for not towing the party line, you are now berating those who wish unity in the Democratic noise machine, at least until after the elections.  Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, it is as valid to those who feel that way as your feelings are to you.

    You make claims that these "hateful" people say things on this blog they would never say to your face.  And how do you know that?  Budhy, for one, would, I have no doubt, be quite capable of saying exactly what he wrote to your face in person -- as would I.  You talk about feelings ... well I have feelings, too, and this kind of writing riles me up as much as what you claim is dishonest, mean, and "not reading my diary" riles you up.  Why are your feelings somehow more valid?

    You say if people disagree they should do so politely and give reasons.  Yet when people call you out for being self-serving, you don't disagree politely, you call them hateful or ignorant (i.e., they didn't "get" what you wrote).

    This is the third diary in this trilogy that started with the one about how you would not vote for Hillary in 2008.  I wrote at the time how much I oppose this kind of diary, and there is no better place to voice my thoughts than in this diary.  You have no right to tell anyone what they can and can't read on this site -- including your diary -- and what they can or cannot feel about it.  When  you put up a diary you are releasing it to everyone's comments, that's the way these blogs work.  I find it insulting that you feel you can control who does or does not comment here by saying 'well if you don't like it, don't read it."  As I said before, that shows you are incapable of taking responsibility for what you write -- it's always someone else's fault.

    Buhdy was right -- you are specifically calling out certain posters whose behavior somehow reminds you of your own back in the day.  You want to feel remorse for your past, fine, but stop smearing everyone else with the same brush.  And stop thinking there won't be posters who will defend the people you characterize as hateful or mean or "piling on" others.  Not everyone agrees with that characterization.

    As far as "timing," and your indignation over people saying now is not the time for this kind of writing -- it's a matter of morale.   You could write diaries that uplift people, you could write about worthy candidates or worthy causes.  Instead you write about your "feelings."  And those "feelings" are completely predicated on those posters you feel are so mean and nasty that they make you afraid to write what you really feel.

    Perhaps I'm wasting my time.  Your writing is, in my opinion, self-serving.  I agree with Buhdy about that.  And I am not hateful.  Nor am I mean.  I am opposed to what you are doing and have every right to say so.

    And in answer to your question -- no, I have never not written something because people may yell at me about it.  Sure, it will hurt, I'm human.  Who doesn't want approval?  But I have never censored myself over that.  I'll take the hit.

    I want very much to like what you write.  But when you write diaries like this, I just can't.  And I also can't keep from stating my opposition to it.  That's how I feel.

    •  Really excellent comment (8+ / 0-)

      It's exactly how I see it but I'm not as articulate! Nicely said! I too remember MSOC's writing and I used to enjoy it but now it's a piefight everytime...

      Let us resolve to be the masters,not the victims,of our history,controlling our own destiny without giving way to blind suspicions & emotions- JFK

      by vcmvo2 on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 05:18:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well ... (11+ / 0-)

        ... an old friend of mine used to say, "you don't have to put people down to get your point across."  These past several "pie-fight" diaries are always assuming a group of posters who are either "a mob," or "hateful" or some other such thing, and that they drive off newbies to the site or people with differing opinions.

        I think if MSOC really wanted to address what can be a real problem to newcomers to the site as well as those with minority opinions, she could have left out the whole "mob" characterization and explained that there are people here who are passionate about this site and take their TU status very seriously and given tips on how to hold your own when confronted by that particular attitude.  That way no one would feel put down and there could be real dialogue.

        The way it's characterized here is an invitation for newbies, etc. to feel entitled to think of themselves as victims instead of full participants who with a little encouragement can more than hold their own on this site.  I don't see the usefulness of that.

        •  It isn't useful (5+ / 0-)

          And that's what I reflect on when I see these diaries from MSOC what's the point? Is it merely to whine or does she believe that posting this on dkos leads to a constructive dialogue? Because it doesn't. Her response to people who dispute her conclusions is, "well don't read the diary then..." But that is not reasonable considering her following. People are here to read diaries after all. It's ultimately unproductive and self-destructive for Maryscott.

          I don't believe someone should be "afraid" of posting a diary here. But I do believe that it is not necessary to post every thought you have on anything. There should be some kind of self-editing that asks what you hope to accomplish? What is the purpose behind your diary? The one day diary limit is not a requirement theat you post- it's actually a limit imposed because we have far too many diaries. I am often frustrated, when I am doing diary rescue, at how many exemplary diaries are unread. I think MSOC needs to reflect on that; as well as the fact that she has a forum from which to post whatever she likes. I read it. I assume others do as well.

          Let us resolve to be the masters,not the victims,of our history,controlling our own destiny without giving way to blind suspicions & emotions- JFK

          by vcmvo2 on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 01:19:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That name recognition IS a responsibility (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2

            Your point is well made. But if nothing else, she does spark some serious debate!

            Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

            by Erevann on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 09:27:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  it has nothing to do with anything other than ego (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gogol, Nightprowlkitty

          MSOC, who I actually used to positively admire when I first came here in late 03/ early 04.  Then she started building a little fanbase and all of a sudden the rational debate went bye-bye and was replaced with the expletive laden diatribes about anything and everything that wasn't MSOC approved.  

          Then she started her own site.  Fine.  You have your own site, your very own platform to say whatever it is you want to say.  All but the newest members know MSOC, know she has her own site, and if they like her probably have read MLW or joined MLW.  But that isn't enough for her...she has to post a diary here just to get the ego boost of having her words read in more than one place.  And weirdly, most of the names you see on MLW are the ones who quick rec her kos diaries.  

          I was suprised reading this diary as it was more mellow, without the fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fucks.  Maybe she is changing or better yet, evolving, into a more rational MSOC.  Time will tell.  My only beef, and the reason I don't go to MLW or MyDD or Booman etc, is the crossposting.  I used to either read or participate in several different kos alum blogs, but stopped when it became apparent there wasn't a reason too.  MyDD may not be an alum but if I wanted to read bowers I know where to find him.  In other words I don't have to go to those sites because I can find all of them here, I can find most of the participants of those other blogs here.  I understand that they want the exposure that dkos offers with its huge number of site visits but imo if they want to post what they write on their blogs they shouldn't be posting the same writing on this site.  Cross-participation is fine as long as the participation is via new material.  In the case of both Bowers and MSOC...they don't participate in other diaries, front page threads (to booman and kid oak's credit, they still do participate in other diaries and comment threads as I'm sure there are others).  They tend their diary until they get bored and then it's back to their own site.  IMO it's ego driven and selfish.  Same complaint about the candidate's diaries.  They post a diary, say 'I've got fifteen minutes to answer questions', and then bam gone.  

          I'll continue to read MSOC when she diaries here because she can be dead-on in some of her arguments.

          Memo to you about the comment criticizing you,  I've been attacked by MSOC for the stupidest of reasons, I shouted right back and was immediately troll-rated for defending myself.  She later came back and apologized after reading my response.  Everyone has the right to an opinion, everyone has the right to defend themselves, everyone has the right to "say it like it is."  Some of us have the courage to stand behind our convictions, others...you're attacker included, don't---as evidenced by the unwarranted attack on DHinMi.  I won't say I agree 100% with what anyone on this site has to say.  But I will say that I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong, big enough to apologize when I think an apology is owed, big enough to have it out with a poster in one thread and then compliment them on a great comment in another.  I've been through a couple of phases and incarnations on this site.  I've been the abusive, pick a fight at all costs, know it all.  I've been the too agreeable, non-confrontational type (an overcorrection to the first type) and now I just say what I have to say, if people like what I have to say or agree with what I have to say they can recommend.  If they don't they can troll or criticize.  What I learned over time was that everyone can learn something new everyday, on every diary, in every thread.  We have a de facto college education system at dkos.  We have bankers, historians, doctors, nurses, lawyers, congressman, former Presidents, and so on who post on this site.  I'm fairly well educated, fairly high IQ, but I havenm't been in school for a while now and my career path took me away from a degree oriented field so I marvel at the amt of info to be gleaned about journalism from our journalist posters; science from our physicists and health care professionals; writing from our writers and publishers; politics from everyone who posts here.  I get burned out easily so I'll post a lot for a few weeks and then take a few weeks or months off.  One thing never changes here...you can always learn something new every day, in every diary, on every thread.  So at least when I'm here I'll be reading what you or MSOC or MB or kos etc has to say because for me the differing opinions and viewpts is what makes this site worth coming to.  If we were all sheep walking nose to ass we'd be freepers.  Keep up the good work and stay opinionated.

          over out

          Tired of the lies? That makes 60% of us!

          by Bill O Rights on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 09:52:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Out of the thousands of (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gogol

      people who post at dkos, I 'recognize' only so many names.  Nightprowlkitty is one of them.  Why?  Not for anything substantial, or even very interesting, nor funny or witty.  Why?  B/c of the whinging like the above comments.  Honestly.  You may write boatloads of incisive and cutting edge comments (I could check your profile, but I'm not going to), but I have never seen one.  I find it amazing that you have the time to not only read, but comment in, so many diaries that offend your sensibilities.  Shouldn't you be phone banking instead???????  Knocking on doors????

      Personally, I enjoy MSOC's diaries.  I like the way she can turn a phrase.  I enjoy her ability to maul a metaphor. :)  But what I admire most is her honesty about herself and what she sees, and her ability to write in a way that is compelling to me about the world around us.  

      That you don't feel this way is not a big deal.  What is weird is your inability to stop being a schmuck. You know what?  I loathe DHinMI's online persona (I do not know him, therefore have no opinion as to what he is like in real life).  I think he's a bully and a dork, and before I quit reading his diaries never read anything of his that I liked.  Sooooooo guess what?  I don't read his diaries.  I may stop by to hit a recommend for some poor soul caught in the crosshairs, but I don't comment.  Not even to say, DHinMI I think you are a jerk. But I don't actually read his diaries.  It's amazing how easy it is to avoid diarists you don't care about.

      Anyhow.  I look forward to the day I'm reading a diary and read an interesting, insightful comment and find that it was written by 'nightprowlkitty'. Though it will have to catch me by surprise, b/c if I see that a comment was written by you....I skip it from here on out.

      All the best.  Now, go and GOTV.

      "...it was a den of iniquity..."

      by kdrivel on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 07:02:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I appreciate it ... (13+ / 0-)

        ... that you like Maryscott and are defending her.

        I described above as best I could why I am posting in these diaries.  I oppose the message -- in this diary Maryscott is, I believe, being divisive towards a community I care as much about as she or anyone else here does.

        You choose to ignore diaries if you loathe the persona of the poster.  I don't loathe anyone's persona, so I can't relate to that.  I do, however, choose to state my disagreement in diaries I find divisive, assuming they're not just useless troll diaries, which I would not characterize this diary as being.

        The rest of your post is just name calling, both of me and DHinMI, for some reason, so there's nothing of substance to respond to there, imo.

        •  weeks later... (0+ / 0-)

          came into 'my page' hunting down a diary by orangecloud (if anyone is reading this before the elections, and you are from Wisc OR know someone from Wisc, please go read OC's diary, then please contact Fair Wisconsin and help!!)

          Sorry for the OT above, but....well.  :)

          Aaaaanyway.  I'm glad that I did get to my page and got to see that I had written a comment to you.  I had forgotten that I had even written it.  I wouldn't be surprised if you had, as well.  :)

          I would like to apologize for being a smartass towards you.  As an explanation, not an excuse, I can only say that I have been utterly frustrated by the verbal dogpiles on dKos as of late, those that are done to fellow kossacks. (No, the irony of being frustrated with that and then writing that comment is NOT lost on me, no indeed)  (clears throat)ahem.

          In my defense, I would like to say that I didn't call you names!  I did characterize your comment as whinging (sorry).  I did call DHinMI names, but, honestly, I think he likes that.  :) kidding!  I tried to be clear that it was how he acts online that I do not like (not that he cares), and not him personally/as a human, as I've never met him nor am I ever likely to meet him.

          Anyhow.  Back to cleaning the garage. yay! This last month has been so crazy busy that I haven't had a chance to do necessary yard work.  It's wrong, just plain wrong, to be raking leaves while snowflakes swirl around your head.  gak!!!

          Apologies again, NPK.  
          cheers,
          kdrivel

          "...it was a den of iniquity..."

          by kdrivel on Thu Nov 02, 2006 at 12:37:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  the Drivel .....by kdrivel (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2, Erevann

        so your calling out Np for being what?  Mean?  Picky?  Whiny?  Well, since you claim you don't seek NP out and since you don't cite any examples what gives you the right to say she's out of line for calling a spade a spade and then admit that you hate DHinMi.  Well guess what Drivel at least Np had the courtesy to tell the person how she felt and didn't go to someone else's diary to bitch about her.  Have you ever confronted DH?  I doubt it.  That would take courage, something that doesn't include making snide remarks or unsubstantiated claims against Np's character.

        How big of you to announce that you won't be seeking out Np---I'm sure that Np is heart broken at the thought that the ignoramus with the holier than thou attitude won't be reading any more Np comments.

        Whatever drivel dripper...keep bitching about posters you don't like when they aren't around and keep attacking comments you don't, can't or choose not to understand.  Ps.  If you already had a bad vibe about Np why'd you choose to read this comment?  Why didn't you choose to not read the comment if choosing not to read posters you don't like is so easy?  I can give you a hint.  It's because you are a hypo.....!  If you need the rest of the hint, don't hesitate to avail yourself of my hospitality.

        Tired of the lies? That makes 60% of us!

        by Bill O Rights on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 08:55:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Making a point and having a debate (0+ / 0-)

          without antagonism, is a tricky thing.

          Character assasination, is not productive. Make your point without malice, otherwise the point may be lost.

          NPK made hers without it, please show the same respect. Even if your opponent does not.

          Love the username man. :)

          Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

          by Erevann on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 09:23:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  oh i'm well aware (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, Erevann

            i choose whom to attack based on my gut.  If it was just the whining about the "whining" of Np I either would have let it slide because she defended herself admirably, or I would have constructively criticized.

            Np made the pt that she feels compelled to call out certain diarists for her own reasons and then spells out why x and o is productive or counterproductive.  It is obvious that she reads MaryScott regularly or she wouldn't have been able to come to these conclusions.  Np wasn't attacking for the basis of attacking, kdrivel was.  He didn't see the hypocrisy of calling out an 'attacker' (though I don't think Np was attacking) by attacking the 'attacker', then he multiplies his mistake by attacking another kossack out of hand, not enhancing his pt but invalidating it.  Np reads MSOC, kdrivel says he doesn't read Np or DH but has the nerve to attack them for their "whining" or "bullying".

            IMO that type of comment deserves strong rebuttal and the question of his character becomes fair game when he questions the character of others.  I'm not a shrink nor counselor so my appraisal of his character based on a couple paragraphs may be dead wrong.  My appraisal that kdrivel is a male may be dead wrong.  But IMO he deserved to be shouted down not coddled.  The only thing I'd say was out of line is the condescension found in the closing lines of my rebuke and for that I am sorry.

            Tired of the lies? That makes 60% of us!

            by Bill O Rights on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 10:06:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well there you go then. :) (0+ / 0-)

              logical and backed up. Can't argue with your reasoning. Kudos.

              Even more for responsibility.

              Now THAT is what we can all use more of! Thanks!

              Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

              by Erevann on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 10:30:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Great comment. Really great. n/t (7+ / 0-)
    •  So glad you're around NPK... (4+ / 0-)

      it's always great to find someone who considers what they say at great length, and articulates it eloquently.

      I will continue to read both you and MSOC. Kdrivel even. No one's perfect, nor should we expect it. Fair, unfair, or just plain ridiculous. Say your peace, call it like you see it, and hopefully keep your ego in check enough to learn from it. (Said in a general frame, not specifically directed)

      I just find it amazing, what a love/hate relationship so many of us have with humanity around here. Not to mention each OTHER! ;)

      While I may not be as experienced with MSOC's style as most, from a few things I've read of hers in the past, and my own experiences with what she spoke of in this diary, the behaviour you describe is consistent with the particular cross MSOC has to bear. It's a frustrating thing to be subject to, and just as, if not more, for others to deal with.

      I don't bring this up to excuse the behaviour, mind you, simply to maintain perspective. I'm not in any position to judge, I'm subject to it to a lesser extent myself, but manage to keep it largely in check. Which seems to have naturally led me into babbling on in the way I am right now. Six crazy sisters, I had no choice. :) I have been on both ends of that stick, myself.

      Nor is there any effort to be an apologist either. I truly hope that your criticism is taken to heart and used for growth. The WHOLE discussion has immense value, to every single one of us.

      It also has great relevance to the problem we find ourselves in, in regards to the radical right (now don't anyone make assumptions here!), and IMHO, your response here, is a great example of the sort of measured response to the "concern troll" and other antagonism within this community, as well as within dialogue with many on the other side of the aisle. It's constructive and honest.

      It strongly highlights the care we should take, with how we treat each other, here, and throughout our lives. Thank you.

      And MSOC, should you read this, I would ask you to not retreat to either anger, nor depression, due to NPK's comment, but consider it and try to maintain emotional detachment, while doing so. (sometimes impossible, I know. But try not to respond until you're able)

      Now, time for me to get ready to make a bunch of phone calls this weekend. :) This is gonna be fun!

      Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

      by Erevann on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 09:14:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Thanks ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        vcmvo2, Erevann

        ... for the interesting comment, Erevann.

        Here's the thing.  I wouldn't disagree that there are new posters and less aggressive posters (as well as very aggressive posters of unpopular subjects) who can be put off by some Kossaks who are strongly challenging in their remarks.

        I wouldn't mind seeing a diary showing those kinds of folks how to respond to aggression on a blog.  I think that kind of a diary, not slamming either type of person, could be very helpful (like giving examples of certain kinds of challenges and how to respond without causing yourself to be either troll rated or start a flame war).

        But when you start the diary off by using terms like "mob" and "pile on," you're beaten before you even start.  No behavior will change on either side and you're giving those who feel insulted by aggression a blank check to claim victimhood -- and that helps no one.  It certainly isn't going to provoke a cinematic moment where some poster is going to "see the light" and change their ways; more likely it will just harden the divisions between us.

        I'd say something like ... if you get a nasty response (or at least something you perceive as nasty), one of the great things about blogging is that you can take a time out to cool off and not respond impulsively.  Even if your fingers are itching to pound the keys in indignation, force yourself to stop and think about what you want to say.  Read the response you got one more time, deleting in your mind any insulting language.  See if there is anything there in terms of substance to respond to -- if there is, force yourself, gritting your teeth in a mad grimace, to only respond to the substance, and see what happens.  If it's just a blatant insult, then take even more time to respond.  Really think about what you want to say.

        Well, I'm not going to ramble on about this, but hopefully that gives a more balanced notion to a new poster or one who is a bit more shy or sensitive (or who is stubbornly intent on promoting a minority or extremely unpopular view) on how to respond to aggressive posts without giving in to victimhood or deciding to stop blogging entirely.

        •  Ohhh yeah... think THEN type/speak (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vcmvo2, Nightprowlkitty

          else it'll end up speak, then insert foot!

          We're certainly all prone to snap reactions sometimes. I've done it, and been rightly chastised for it a few times around here.

          Conflict resolution and practical application of some of Lakoff's ideas in this could be really instructive! There's definitely the makings of a really great diary in all this.

          hehe great, I've already got 5-6 in several stages of coalescence, but putting off until after the elections. Tell ya what, I'll keep an eye out on that one, in case you're interested in doing it. If not, I'll get in touch when I get to a point I can devote the time to it.

          Take care!

          Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

          by Erevann on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:26:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Agree. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Erevann

            It would make a good diary.  But the work you're doing right now is urgent and I support it -- I think Crashing the States is an important project and will have repercussions far beyond the stated mission.  It's a true example of people powered politics and I don't think I've missed any of the adventures of Hekebolos and crew.

            •  The guys have already moved on down (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Nightprowlkitty

              the coast, think they're in Cali at the moment, and should be in NV in not too long. The thing we did here in Seattle was a lot of fun, and charged me up for the next couple weeks.

              Now it's phone calls, phone calls, phone calls!!!! :)

              Knowledge brings fear... Understanding brings courage... Wisdom brings peace. Never give in to despair, my friends, tomorrow's fight requires you today.

              by Erevann on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:38:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  You are brilliant... (4+ / 0-)

      I'm glad MissLaura rec'd this for Top comments because it is truly a top fucking comment!! Excellent.

  •  The better part of valour (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vcmvo2, Nightprowlkitty, DemiGoddess

    is discretion.

    Honesty is a good thing, and much to be admired, but so is tact, and respect.

    There are any number of opinions I have about Democrats, tinfoil, third party politics, pie, and certain people in particular, but I don't always feel a need to shout every one of these opinions from the virtual rooftop, just because I can.  

    If I hold my tongue, it's because I understand that this place has a purpose, and a mission. And I realize that my ego gratification is not one of its purposes, nor is the absolution of my conscience one of its missions.

    I'm not here to crap on anyone's carpet, bruise anyone's nose, or demand acceptance of every opinion I may have. I like cooperation, not conflict. I like reading constructive dialogues. I like a sense of shared purpose.

    But that's just me.

    For others, politics is a bloodsport, and this arena is the one in which they can buff their muscles, try new weapons, and challenge all comers. The scraps get pretty ugly sometimes.

    As far as I can tell, in this place, you can pretty much choose your fights, or choose not to fight. Neither decision in itself makes you a hero, or a coward.

    However, the person who would insist on picking a fight while complaining about those who fight back, well...

    harpo

    "...." -- Harpo Marx

    by BobzCat on Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 09:55:07 PM PDT

  •  Byron DeLear and DailyKOS (0+ / 0-)

    I posted about Byron Delear's campaign on a thread at DailyKOS a month ago on the story, "On Kicking Ass and Crashing Gates" http://www.dailykos.com/... and was very surprised when I was told [by the TheBookPolice, no less] that I was violating one of the "mission statements" for the site.

    As it turns out, there is apparently a statement by Markos that the site is open ONLY to members of the Democratic choir and that comments of dissent -- ANY DISSENT -- from the "party line" are discouraged. Since then, I have been reluctant to express an opinion there . . . even though I have been an active Democrat for most of my 66 years on earth.

    I appreciate your laying your reputation on the line to revisit this topic and to remind people that the only way to change politics in the current two-party system is to THINK and participate.

    I don't see the thought police taking you to task or calling you a jerk . . . YET.

    •  No dissent? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nightprowlkitty

      Your very first comment at this Democratic site was titled Fuck the Democratic Party:

      I will for sure change my party registration from Democrat to Independent first thing tomorrow. I will never ever vote for a fucking Democratic candidate again in my life. If the only other candidate on the ballot is a Republican, then I will work to get them elected. The Democratic Party is a dead duck in my book. I can remember when they were an opposition party. Fuck the Democrats and fuck Bob Shrum and all the Washington political consultant sellouts that have already killed the Democrats.

      Wake up, my friends, the Democratic Party needs to be put to sleep. They have outlived their usefulness.

      Your only subsequent comments are in one diary, and are in regard to Delear.

      How many troll-ratings have you received? Not one. Did anyone attempt to hide your "dissent" at all? Nope. Not even after you took a rude and aggressive tone with someone who rather gently advised you.

      Given that you no longer consider yourself a Democrat, that you despise the Democratic party, that you support Green Party candidates and have stated the intention of working for Republican candidates, and that your first appearances here made you seem like more than a bit of a jerk, I can see how you might not be feeling the open loving arms of welcome right now.

      "...." -- Harpo Marx

      by BobzCat on Fri Oct 27, 2006 at 12:38:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  The rest of the story (0+ / 0-)

    If you are going to dredge up old business, then you may as well tell the whole story The post was in regard to the vote on the Alito nomination, which ticked me off to the max . . . and was prompted by some very rude behavior when I questioned the choir again. The bold part is the part that you chose to take out of context.

    I am 65 years old and I have been an active democrat since I was 15. I live in Bingaman's district. I called his office today and his staff was very rude to me. I then called the New Mexico Democratic Party to ask them if he had any opponents in the primary this year. They told me that if I didn't support Sen. Bingaman, then "maybe I should consider calling the Republican Party and joining them." Chris (a staffer at the state party) told me that everyone at the New Mexico Democratic Party supports Bingaman no matter what he does. I also called Matt Farrouto, the Executive Director of the New Mexico Democratic Party on his cell phone (505-235-0419) he told me essentially the same thing. "If you don't support Sen Bingaman, who has been the Senator for 24 years, then you should find another political party to support."

    I will for sure change my party registration from Democrat to Independent first thing tomorrow. I will never ever vote for a fucking Democratic candidate again in my life. If the only other candidate on the ballot is a Republican, then I will work to get them elected. The Democratic Party is a dead duck in my book. I can remember when they were an opposition party. Fuck the Democrats and fuck Bob Shrum and all the Washington political consultant sellouts that have already killed the Democrats.

    Wake up, my friends, the Democratic Party needs to be put to sleep. They have outlived their usefulness.

  •  Very late to the game (0+ / 0-)

    since I missed the diary yesterday. The answer to your question is yes, I have held back. On several matters both political and meta.

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