Troll Rating Defenders of Israel

I am not one of those who say that the DailyKos community is anti-Israel.  There are a diversity of views in the community on the Middle East, as on many other topics.

That said, there is a disturbing phenonemnon of anti-Israel posters troll rating defenders of Israel.

If you want an example, just look at the diary from about an hour ago, "Robert Fisk: Mystery of Israel's secret uranium bomb."  The diary is based on some fairly sketchy evidence, but no one has troll rated the diarist, or those who defend it.

For putting forth an opposing view, defending Israel--and suggesting that Mideast diaries focus on ways that we can move the region toward peace--I've now been troll rated twice.  Three times if you count the troll rating given my comment objecting to being troll rated.

Other posters in the thread suggest that it's become increasingly common to be troll rated for making reasonable comments, particularly about Israel.

I'm no fan of meta-diaries, but I raise this because I think this sort of ratings abuse stifles free debate on the site and is bad for the community.

•  Nothing new...

  Saying anything rational about this subject will piss people off on one side, or another.

  by Dcoronata on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:43:34 AM PDT

  •  How Dare You!?!!

    I will personally make it my mission in life to hunt you down and make you pay for that!!!!

    I am a Defender of Israel!

    And yes, I wear a cape.

    by Exquisite Corpse on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:22:05 AM PDT

•  I think pretty much every person

  interested in every aspect of civil rights has been troll rated at one time or another.

  Don't take it personally, sometimes people misread or misunderstand you, sometimes they are trying to give you a positive rating but the gizmo sticks and it turns up a troll rating, and sometimes it is their ignorance.

  by lightnessofbeing on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:44:07 AM PDT

•  There are some TUs at daily kos

  who have gotten drunk on the most minimal quaff elixir.  They're really nothing short of TU Trolls.

  by DCDemocrat on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:46:41 AM PDT

  •  Thanks, Folks

    I'm pretty new to being troll rated, and it kind of offended my sense of what the Kos community was about.  I'll think of the troll raters as "TU Trolls"--nice phrase--and leave it at that.

    by absalom2 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:48:46 AM PDT

    •  After almost three years here of relentlessly

      heaping vitriol on the Republicans, the other day, I recommended that people should unrecommend a diary that had shot to the top of the recommended list.  Some of these TU trolls thought the request was unreasonable and started to troll rate a number of very innocent comments to show me both their power and their wrath.  I lost my TU status until later in the day 165 kossacks though a comment I wrote about Limbaugh to be amusing.

      by DCDemocrat on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:54:12 AM PDT

      •  my flame thrower was gone for over a day

        but it's good to be humbled every once in a while

        by lightnessofbeing on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:02:35 AM PDT

      •  I thought those days were over

        There way a bit of confusion when the 1-2-3 options were removed and some people ended up giving out troll ratings where they would have otherwise given a 1. I'm guilty there, myself.

        by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:27:29 AM PDT

    •  That's why I uprated you

      It negates a troll rating, I think.

      by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:16:48 AM PDT

    •  I wouldn't troll rate you

      because it's obviously not trolling.

      But Israel is indefensible. They deserve every single thing they've received since Rabin was assassinated. They're a terrorist state. Not that the Palestinians are any better.

      by felagund on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:35:07 AM PDT

  •  Okay, but can we also remember

    to say aloud that there are-- I assume thousands-- of us normal TUs here who don't freakishly follow people about troll-rating them just for the thrill of it?

    I get just as tired of hearing "TUs" referred to as some kind of elite Skull-and-Bones homogeneous clique... as I do hearing shrill condemnations of "trolls" as some kind of cohesively-evil body.

    We're all just people here, though some say stupider stuff than others.  :)

    by renaissance grrrl on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:55:33 AM PDT

    •  at this point

      there are probably close to 2500 TU's

      by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:08:40 PM PDT

      •  There's got to be more

        because I'm a TU.

        ps - I've never used my Troll-rating capacity.
        That's not to say I never wanted to - but usually, I was late to the party or I didn't think the remark was really that awful.

        by BoxerRebellion on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:01:10 PM PDT

•  since I'm not a TU

  i can't read the comments that were Troll Rated, but I certainly agree with your point. I understand the purpose of troll-rating inconsiderate or right-wing-parroting concern troll diaries but the middle east conflict is insanely complex and there is a lot of very valid fodder for debate there on the Left. I would probably normally be one of the people posting pro-palestinian or at least 'equal-fault' comments, but I think it's absurd to have either side silenced with TR's. As I understand it, the purpose of a TR is to get rid of people who don't belong on the site-- right-wing posters or intentional interference from republican campaigns trying to skew debate or mislead the dkos masses.

  Thanks for posting on this. And we will give you all the mojo in the world if you can suggest how we can bring peace to the middle east.

  by mrbubs on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:48:30 AM PDT

  •  It's not hard to become one.

    Just stick around three months, and don't be a dick. Or at least, don't be a bigger dick than me. I tend to walk the line.;)

    by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:30:30 AM PDT

    •  right, i've only been registered for a month

      so i'll try to behave.

      Thanks :)

      by mrbubs on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:33:38 AM PDT

    •  Hey McGirk,

      it looks like you and I joined about the same time and took about the same amount of time to reach TU status.
      And I thought it was my unique verbal skills being finally appreciated... Sob... sob... GBCW!

      by Allogenes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:18:14 PM PDT

•  It's the same assholes all the time,

  Four or five posters.

  They need to knock it off.

  by Bob Johnson on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:49:13 AM PDT

  •  often, that's true

    but particularly in this emotionally volatile topic, not infrequently someone's passion leads them to express themselves in a manner which is, in itself, blatantly inflammatory and/or disrespectful, earning righteous doughnuts.

    by condoleaser on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:56:51 AM PDT

    •  Which is preceiley why I stay out of them.

      There can be no right answer, no matter how strenuously folks believe their side is correct.

      by Bob Johnson on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:08:55 AM PDT

      •  i find the notion

        that we will solve ten thousand years of history and war here on Dkos incredibly amusing, personally!

        by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:49:25 AM PDT

        •  Agreed! The place to do that is at the pub.

          by ranz on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:02:38 PM PDT

          •  first round is on me!

            

            by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:06:52 PM PDT

            •  Oh, Buhdy,

              what big mugs you have.

              by BoxerRebellion on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:06:56 PM PDT

    •  Troll Rating

      My problem though is that troll rating is just a mechanism to enforce group think.  if you express yourself in a way that the masses don't agree you get troll rated.  In fact, to gain the ability to troll rate you have to say things that the masses agree with, hence giving you plusses.  Do we really want to encourage group think?  Is that what our end goal is?

      by dmsarad on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:56:15 AM PDT

      •  thats total bullshit

        and notice that i didn't troll rate you.

        even though i COMPLETELY disagree with your comment and in fact find it insulting to me and all the others who have worked hard to make this a site where YOU evindently WANT to comment.

        Group think my ass!

        by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:11:26 PM PDT

        •  I think the poster has a valid point

          about the groupthink tendencies around here.

          by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:30:57 PM PDT

          •  I disagree!

            See, no groupthink!

            by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:52:05 PM PDT

        •  You want props

          You want proprs for not troll rating a post that didn't deserve to be troll rated?

          by dmsarad on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:42:40 PM PDT

          •  yeah....

            I'm all about the props..

            thats my thing, thats why im here...

            props.

            right.

            its called an example

            enhance your calm, citizen! LOL

            by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:53:26 PM PDT

      •  One of the goals

        is to keep the signal to noise ratio at tolerable levels.

        This "groupthink" meme is getting so old. The unassailable fact is that the 99.9% of the comments that are hidden fully deserve to be tossed there, and their posters discouraged from being assholes, or eventually banned as trolls.

        I dare anyone who claims that Dkos is being overrun by groupthink, etc, to point out comments that are hidden that shouldn't be. I'd be surprised to see one out of a hundred.

        Too many thin-skins get all freaked out when they get a goose-egg or two, and start screaming "groupthink" and "censorship" and practically wet themselves in self-righteous outrage. This isn't just a soapbox.

        The fact is, you can say things that others object to, and if they feel strongly enough about it, will troll-rate and still others support and uprate. People are indeed allowed to disagree and express their disagreement in a number of ways. Sometimes minds are changed, along with ratings. And as these meta diaries demonstrate, there is and always will be disagreement over the use of troll ratings.

        But without them, this site would be useless, overrun by wingnuts, conspiracy freaks, and spammers. And troll-rating is probably the most "democratic" approach to site moderation I've seen anywhere on the internet.

        Sure, there are some abusers, there are personal vendettas, there are Friday-night drinkers settling old scores, but the vast majority of TUs take their responsibilities seriously, and the vast majority of troll-rates are fully deserved.

        There is a huge diversity of opinion present here, debating, disagreeing, concurring, arguing, hashing it out, obsessing, supporting, ranting, freaking, fighting, and chilling, but ultimately we're all (mostly) Democrats, working together in a spirit of shared purpose, searching for consensus, and striviong to regain control of this government and make it work for the people again.

        Isn't that the primary goal?

        by BobzCat on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:37:23 PM PDT

      •  I have several opinions

        that I would never post on daily kos for fear that I would be bombed into the dark ages, but fortunately, I wilely enough to believe both sides of these issues and can post the part that is safe.  Yes, you have a point.

        by DCDemocrat on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 06:27:33 PM PDT

•  Wanna know what I think stifles debate?

  Terms like "pro-Israel" and "anti-Israel."  These are nonsense terms that doom any real discussion before it can begin.

  If you want to have a real debate on Israel, stop crippling it from the start with these ridiculous terms.

  by Jeffrey Feldman on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:49:38 AM PDT

  •  Well said!

    n/t

    by MyName on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:43:49 AM PDT

  •  Kick ass!

    by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:48:50 AM PDT

  •  .

    

    by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:50:27 AM PDT

•  I Don't Think It's An AntiSemite TR

  It's just people who get a boner with what little power they have.

  I really think it's that simple.

  There's a mutated banana in every bunch I'm afraid.

  .

  by Detroit Mark on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:49:41 AM PDT

•  Threads where everyone troll rates each other

  It's just not much fun to say something neutral and be called "racist" by both sides.

  by bernardpliers on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:50:56 AM PDT

  •  I know

    Its amazing how someone can be an apologist for Islamic terrorists AND part of the Zionist conspiracy at the same time!

    by jgwd on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:41:34 AM PDT

•  Right On!

  There's a small group of posters here on Kos who are vehemently anti-Israel, and even now in the midst of the final countdown to the most important election in decades, we have these anti-Zionist, anti-Semites (Yes, they are of course anti-Semites), they post nonsensical diaries like the silly Fisk one you mentioned.

  Those of us here who want to put all of our energy into assuring a Democratic victory Nov. 7.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if virtually all of the anti-Israel posters here on Kos are really Karl Rove operatives seeking to drive a wedge between Democratic Party supporters, which include many Jewish-Americans.

  by tailor324 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:51:57 AM PDT

  •  You need to adjust the fit of your

    

    by Loquatrix on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:02:18 AM PDT

    •  You rich people

      spend far to much money on your pets.;)

      by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:47:38 AM PDT

      •  not to mention office furniture!

        

        by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:53:06 AM PDT

        •  LOL

          That's fucking awesome.

          by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:20:05 PM PDT

  •  perhaps, but aren't there also posters here who

    will try to disqualify any discussion of Israeli policy whatsoever by labelling it 'anti-semitic'?

    personally, I believe in free discussion (as long as it's not personally offensive) and don't troll rate at all

    by Lepanto on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:06:58 AM PDT

    •  And the flip side of that

      There are people who try to chill any disagreement by making preemptive claims that "someone will no doubt label me anti-semitic," in the hopes that they will then be free to make any outrageous or inflammatory comment.

      by Paul in Berkeley on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:31:45 PM PDT

  •  I highly doubt

    that there are many Kos folks who are "anti-Israel". Many (myself included) see a great injustice in continuing occupation, and are pissed at the Israeli government as well as at the Palestinian (lacking) leadership. Equating "anti-Zionist" and "anti-Semitic", as you do, makes it easier to marginalize the more nuanced prospective, but it doesn't make it right.

    by KPlayer on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:09:38 AM PDT

    •  No doubt-

      just because you may disagree with someone's policies doesn't mean you are against their religion or their very being...

      It's like saying we're "anti-Christian" if we disagree w/the administrations' policies...

      Good point!

      by MyName on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:46:30 AM PDT

  •  If you are going to make that charge

    you should have the stones to name them.

    Otherwise you are propagating a witch hunt.

    Who EXACTLY are you accusing?

    by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:52:16 AM PDT

  •  I hear you

    While I don't think that Karl Rove is behind this, I do think that some of the more extreme anti-Israel statements on this site would offend a lot of democratic voting Jews.  Tell me that it would hurt Dan Seals and help Representative Kirk if it were exposed that major democratic supporters like DailyKos believe that Israel is a terrorist nation who have deserved everything they have gotten since Rabin's assassination, to quote someone from above.

    by dmsarad on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:00:04 PM PDT

  •  it would be inappropriate

    for me to troll-rate you for that comment in this diary, but you are one of the pro-Israel posters who consistently posts troll-worthy remarks that deserve every damn donut they get.

    Unlike most of the people who post in these threads.

    by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:22:35 PM PDT

•  It's not just Israel, there are diary police

  on controversial topic who troll rate anyone who disagrees with their orthodoxy. This is why I hate the troll rating thing. There re even some who will continually troll rate someone no matter how rational a comment is because they have been deemed a troll by a group of TU's and thereore should be permanently banned from the site. The whole troll thing limits discussion.

  by Tanya on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:52:27 AM PDT

  •  there are Trusted Users and there are Uber-Users

    who can cut the TUs off at the knees.  I think it usually works pretty well.  We need some kind of policing mechanism in this community.  Sometimes it misfires.  But absalom2 is still here to post a diary.  I think that's a good thing.  Agree with the comment above, Ab2 don't take it personally.

    by Stonewall Custer on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:06:52 AM PDT

    •  Uber users?

      do you mean Admins?

      by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:54:35 AM PDT

  •  Abuse of the troll-rating is indeed often used

    to limit discussion.

    by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:32:32 PM PDT

    •  example?

      by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:09:45 PM PDT

      •  Oh, just about any diary

        posted by a Green

        by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:27:30 PM PDT

        •  hahaha

          How bout when republicans post on this CLEARLY Democratic site?

          There are SOME limits you know, nort hosting someone who wishes to defeat you politely doesn't bother me much at all!

          by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:32:06 PM PDT

          •  Hey, I won't deny there are actually trolls

            who come here to disrupt the proceedings.

            I merely think that there are some who get carried away in their Zeal.

            by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 02:35:27 PM PDT

            •  indubitably

              but as a percentage?

              by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 03:28:22 PM PDT

              •  Small

                by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:01:02 PM PDT

          •  buhdy,

            I love it when you get tough!

            So sexy...

            by Elise on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 03:51:52 PM PDT

            •  cut it out!

              Semi-married person!

              i am flirting with too many Kosovarians already!

              .

              .

              .

              how's that for tough?!?

              by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:08:00 PM PDT

              •  lmao...sorry :-)

                you're such a stud...

                by Elise on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:39:23 PM PDT

                •  sigh

                  just my cross to bare!

                  by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:48:49 PM PDT

                  •  a tough one too...

                    by Elise on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:50:45 PM PDT

                    •  hard werk!

                      But you probably have more people 'sniffin 'round' than anyone else on Dkos! Of course if I didn't have integrity and if you weren't semi married.....

                      John doesn't skydive or swim with stingrays or anything does he?

                      jes askin!

                      by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 05:00:23 PM PDT

                      •  lmao...he does rock climb...

                        he's out doing that right now actually...in the dark...it makes me very nervous.

                        by Elise on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 05:35:28 PM PDT

        •  A diary posted by a Green

          that raises awareness of a little-known environmental issues, that proposes strategies to effectively counter anti-environmental legislation, that discusses alternative enegry approaches and their supporters, that contributes to this community's effectiveness in bringing important issues to the forefron of the Democratic and platform, etc., etc., are more than welcome.

          Green diarists who post here to simply promote the Green Party and Green Party candidates, especially ones running against Democrats, are confused. They're at the wrong site. Troll-rating is a simple non-verbal way to communicate with them, since they've clearly lost the ability to comprehend English.

          by BobzCat on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 02:01:09 PM PDT

          •  In theory, this is the policy

            yet in practice, I have seen posters here foam and froth at the mouth at the very sight of the hue.

            by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 02:33:47 PM PDT

•  People have been complaining about

  "ratings abuse" on Daily Kos since the dawn of time.  And yet, mysteriously, we keep getting more and more hits, and more and more people are joining us, and our community is taken more and more seriously in the wider world.  Whatever anybody thinks about the ratings system when under the influence of personal feelings of rejection, there is clear evidence that it categorically is not bad for the community.  It may feel bad to some users some of the time, but that's not the same thing by any stretch.

  So you were wrongly troll-rated this morning.  Boo hoo.  You're an adult, aren't you?  Instead of allowing yourself to be "stifled," why don't you come out swinging instead?  Running off to complain to Teacher won't win you the argument OR anybody's respect.

  In other words:  Chin up, stop whining, and argue your point instead of crying in the corner.

  by Loquatrix on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 10:58:32 AM PDT

•  please don't take this personally

  absalom2.....its addressed to everybody not just you

  What is the big deal about getting troll rated?

  why do people get so upset about it?

  does it physically hurt? NO

  does it take money out of your pocket? NO

  does it affect the Real world in ANY way? NO

  its a picture on a screen.

  Stop taking being TR'd so personally folks!

  Its just NOT THAT BIG OF A DEAL!

  by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:00:25 AM PDT

  •  Especially since in absalom2's case, no comment

    was hidden, even, and the RECS made up for the hasty
    TR's--which is what most often happens with undeserved
    TR's.

    by begone on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:06:12 AM PDT

  •  As a newer Kossack...

    ... the effect of acquiring TRs was not at first appartent to me as irrelevent.

    by Opinionated Ed on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:09:51 AM PDT

    •  But now...

      that you're an older and wiser kossack, you can see that troll ratings are mostly irrelevant, but persistent bad behavior is not.

      This is not to imply that you have a history like that, people do say things that they regret.  The best course of action is to take note, do a little self examination, and then either apologize or let it go.

      If my basilisk joke is so offensive it gets a thousand trolls it does not ruin my reputation as much as 10 comments with a single zero each.

      by ek hornbeck on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:22:36 PM PDT

  •  Thank you Buhdy...

    JeebusChristus.
    Bush is the Preznit.
    Cheney likes to waterboard.
    The GOP is killing the country I live in.
    And another woe is me diary about getting a troll rating.
    And not even a lot...just one or so.
    Damn.
    The bubble people live in while on the Intenets kinda blows my feeble mind.
    I cringe thinking what diary got pushed down into oblivion over this.
    I cringe even as I post this.
    In a meta diary.
    damn.

    by Christin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:17:49 AM PDT

  •  Well,

    I've never been troll-rated; but I'm still in therapy for the "2" MSOC gave me over a year ago.

    by Rusty Pipes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:47:46 PM PDT

•  eh?

  While I don't agree with you being troll rated, I do think your comment was bs. You accused the author of being one sided, completely ignoring all the parts that talked about Iran's/Hezbollah's weapons - and didn't respond when people called you on it.

  I must also disagree with your statement in this diary:

  and suggesting that Mideast diaries focus on ways that we can move the region toward peace

  Huh? We should ignore atrocities to focus on solving the mideast crisis? It's not an either/or is it? Can't we do both. On any topic, can't the diarist inform about a problem without also persuading us how to fix it? What if they simply don't know how to solve a problem - but do know there is clearly a problem. Oh, I just think your "suggestion" is another attempt to silence discussion - just like your first comment in the diary that offended you so.

  by lil love on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:04:57 AM PDT

•  Just Remember..

  "Jew", "Semite", "Israeli", "Zionist" are all independent terms. Many a commentator intentionally makes that mistake to stir up the pot.

  by Vinnie Vegas on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:06:51 AM PDT

•  The TU Trolls TR anti-Israel too

  As was stated above, TUs are often intolerant of those that they disagree with, and they hold a variety of inflexible opinions.

  by Opinionated Ed on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:08:27 AM PDT

  •  there are well over two thousand TUs

    thats an AWFULLY broad statement, my friend!

    do you include me in that?

    by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:57:42 AM PDT

    •  It seems that the few bad apples...

      ... are getting the most attention.

      I had no idea that there were so many, just that there were a few bad ones.

      by Opinionated Ed on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:00:51 PM PDT

      •  gosh...

        you mean like in every other group of humans on earth???

        Shocking! lol.

        as soon as you get more than two humans together ther is bound to be trouble!

        by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:05:42 PM PDT

    •  I think the term was

      "TU trolls" not TUs

      by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:24:17 PM PDT

      •  nope!

        TUs are often intolerant of those that they disagree with, and they hold a variety of inflexible opinions

        by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:51:08 PM PDT

        •  The header

          The TU Trolls TR anti-Israel too

          Of course, I'm on the TU list, too, and am the soul of tolerance and moderation.

          by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:31:06 PM PDT

          •  heehee!

            by buhdydharma on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 02:01:15 PM PDT

  •  I'll just put that statement

    along with "All Democrats are on the radical left" (i.e. Pelosi hah) on my broad brushstroke list.

    The thing is - we have a job to do in a little over one week. Let's finish that job before we allow ourselves to go offtrack on another.
    Why do we always fall for 'Rovian' theory?

    (Not that any poster here is a RedState Troll- just that this is how we are often so easily divided.)

    by BoxerRebellion on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:12:46 PM PDT

    •  Good, you do just that...

      by Opinionated Ed on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:34:36 PM PDT

•  "defenders of Israel"

  what does that mean? Specifically, what does that mean to you? And would you accept that it might means something else to someone else?

  Blanket sounding phrases like that are a red flag. I don't know you or your background so I don't want to jump to conclusions... but... phrases like that are a red flag of absolutists intolerance of oppossing views. Is this the case with you? Is there only one way to be, one definition of, "defenders of Israel?"

  Or was it just a poor choice of words?

  It is certain to me that troll rating on a variety of subjects, not just troll rating, but argumentative disagreements on a variety of subjects occur due to absolutist, one definition only, views of complex issues such as this.

  Peace,

  Andrew

  by Andrew C White on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:08:43 AM PDT

•  Yawn.

  Boo Fucking Hoo. Somebody didn't:

  A. Like me.
  B. Agree with me.
  C. Respect my sacred cow.
  D. Other _________ .

  So put your big girl panties on and deal with it. But this third-party bullshit is totally fucked. You don't like someone's troll ratings, deal with it when and where it happened. This thing has been meta'd to death.

  Congratulations--you have just wasted a diary.

  by homogenius on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:08:57 AM PDT

  •  Cover your mouth when you yawn

    Or did your mother never explain about "polite?"  

    Troll raters are generally closet bullies.  Sad people who should really go outside more often, but find it so much safer to just sit in front of their computers and anonymously click.

    Cousins to The Diary Police.  

    If you don't like somebody's opinion/diary, don't recommend it.        

    by recontext on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:35:22 AM PDT

    •  Overgeneralize much?

      And another thing. If I don't like someone's opinion/diary, I'll comment or rate it as I damn well please. And if somebody doesn't like what I say or rate, then they are free to say so.

      In this case, I thought this diary was a waste of effort. So I said so. If you thought it was worthwhile and necessary, then bully for you.

      by homogenius on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:46:31 AM PDT

  •  Heheh

    "big girl panties" -- I like that.  

    How've you been doing? Life is treating you well, I hope!

    by Paul in Berkeley on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 04:33:52 PM PDT

    •  Thanks.

      I got "big-girl panties" from a coffee mug.

      I'm down in the OC taking care of elderly parents this week. I'll be back on election day in time to watch the returns. Thanks for asking. Hope you are well.

      by homogenius on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 07:23:01 PM PDT

•  What I see.

  And what I know.
  Is that defenders of Palestine and other Muslim countries also get troll rated.
  Not all.
  But some.
  And what I know. And what I see.
  Is that some defenders of Israel's POLICIES, not Isreal, also get troll rated.
  Not all.
  But some.

  shrug
  The end.

  by Christin on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:09:57 AM PDT

•  Isn't there anything else to talk about today?

  Defenders of Israel should not be troll rated unless they make racist, pro Bush, pro Republican, and anti liberal statements.  It's pretty damn simple.  I am a strong supporter of Israel.  I'm also a leftist.  Enough said.  There are far more important things to discuss today.  Let's move on.

  by SoCalLiberal on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:12:12 AM PDT

  •  Where we goin next? n/t

    by Stonewall Custer on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:13:38 AM PDT

•   GA-04 CYNTHIA MCKINNEY VS HANK JOHNSON DIARIES..

  got really ugly. As most are aware, Cynthia McKinney, who is no friend of Israel, was soundly defeated in the primary here in GA. Piefights and attempted troll rating abuse in the diaries on this race reached epic proportions. (Fortunately the troll abusers were greatly outnumbered).

  Anyone who supported McKinney's Democratic opponent in the primary for whatever reason was labeled a Republican plant, Faux Dem, AIPAC operative, etc, among other more virulent charges. Almost all of the anti-AIPAC, anti-Israel McKinney supporters posting lived outside of the district. One, however, even identified and threatened a pro-Johnson poster with retaliation (Kos banned her). The anti-Israel posters claimed Johnson was being funded by AIPAC (Johnson got $11K from pro-Israeli PACS out of $650K raised).

  I agree that the vast majority of the Kos community is civil and rational, but I was somewhat taken aback by the ferocity of a  handful of righteously indignant and intolerant extremists that came out of the woodwork over this issue.

  I won't avoid discussing Israel issues in the future, but IMHO the best way to deal with the abuse tactics is to ignore them. I agree that the ratings abuse will stifle free discussion for some, but most Kossacks aren't bashful and will continue to express their opinions freely.

  by VolvoDrivingLiberal on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:28:22 AM PDT

  •  nice one sided analysis

    I too think McKinney was targeted for not being sufficiently pro-israel.

    by TeresaInPa on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:56:15 AM PDT

    •  There is no doubt of it

      by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:25:25 PM PDT

    •  Talk about a litmus test!

      by mattes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:38:38 PM PDT

•  What if we are anti-israel?

  what is wrong with that?

  by naufragus on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:28:42 AM PDT

  •  Not a damn thing IMO

    as long as we tell the truth and do so in a noninflammatory manner.

    by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:34:39 PM PDT

•  Troll rating abuse topics

  1 Both sides of the I/P debate. (enough's been said already today on that)
  2 "Cunt". (Very rude, I feal that word should be reserved exclusively for Barbera Bush. But some people are just fowl mouthed, it dosen't make them trolls. Personally I find saying "see you next tuesday" to be wittier.)
  3 Ann Coltier's a man jokes. (rseveren managed to convince me to stop making them without troll rating. Props to her.)
  4 "Nigga", as opposed to "nigger'. (I'm a bit old to be sure, but people under thirty seem to be using nigga as us old fuckers use dude. I'm not comfortable using it myself, but if kids wish to reclaim the word and disempower it, we can't stop 'em.)

  by McGirk on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 11:44:11 AM PDT

•  Are you here to shut down I/P diaries?

  Some of us don't want our tax dollars going to support racists governments and it seems you don't either:

  The Palestinians have a right to elect any party they want--including one that sends suicide bombers into pizza parlors, instructing them to blow themselves up exactly where they will kill the most young people.

  And America has a right to respond to the Palestinians differently based on who they elect.

  Remember, America is a democracy too--and most Americans don't want their tax dollars going to help a terrorist government.  If you care about democracy, you'll respect this democratic right of American voters to control how their money is used.

  SO:

  Olmert's embrace of hawks could cost him Labor support in coaliton

  In a bold gambit designed to bolster his shaky coalition, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is bringing a hawkish party into his coalition, guaranteeing him the support of 78 members of the 120-seat Knesset and possibly one of the most stable governments in Israeli history.

  The move significantly strengthens Avigdor Lieberman, hardline leader of the Yisrael Beiteinu Party, and leaves the rest of the Israeli right in disarray.

  It also raises questions for the dovish Labor Party, Olmert's main coalition partner.

  The accession of Yisrael Beiteinu could herald the end of any potential peacemaking between Israel and its neighbors, and Labor will have to decide whether it can continue serve in the same government. The fact that Lieberman has been accused of racism with regard to Israeli Arabs compounds Labor's dilemma.
  http://www.jewishjournal.com/...

  MORE on his Party:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

  The present contacts with Lieberman are actually a racist demonstration against the Palestinian Arabs in Israel -- and preparation for the approaching war. You have to rub your eyes.  The very same Israel which claims, at least formally, that it wants dialogue and understanding with the Arab world is considering including in the government, in a central role, an avowed racist who supports the expulsion of Palestinian Israeli citizens from their homeland.

  Get this.  A political movement based on new immigrants who have recently come to this country and who call their movement "Israel Beytanu" (Israel Is Our Home) has the nerve to spread poisonous propaganda that this country is not the country of a million and a half Palestinians who have lived here from time and eternity.  "Israel Beytanu" is not a legitimate political formation but a walking provocation which has no place in a genuine democracy.
  http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/...

  by mattes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:18:42 PM PDT

•  Trusted Users and Israel

  Trusted Users may have been a good concept at the beginning.  In my opinion, it has outlived its time.  A long time ago, there were no limits on diaries, then down to two per day, then one.  

  When TU is used for status, or to wield unwarranted power, than there should be another way to deal with the process.  My preference would be to get rid of trusted users and troll ratings completely.  I like to read everything.  Is that not what free expression is about?  If people would learn to respond, then ignore the abusers, the latter would stop from inattention.

  As for Israel, it did not pick the fight that it is in, but in the fighting it has come to act in many ways like those who have acted to destroy it.  It's so sad that, in the fight, we often become like our enemies, America included.

  by citizen53 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:36:40 PM PDT

  •  ? Neither did the Palestinians choose to loose

    their homeland:
    http://www.palestineremembered.com/...

    by mattes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 12:40:43 PM PDT

    •  I am no expert...

      but was there really a "Palestinian" homeland?  Weren't the Palestinians also inhabitants of the land that became Jordan?  Is Jordan part of the Palestinian  homeland?  There were and are Palestinian Israelis.  If the war against Israel had not started immediately upon its creation, perhaps ALL the Israeli Palestinians would have been welcome and integrated into the society like they integrated into Jordanian society.  Or did countries like Egypt and Syria use them as pawns for their own purposes?

      My main point was that, in war, too often the parties come to resemble one another.

      by citizen53 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:08:38 PM PDT

      •  Palestine was considered a territory. And yes,

        the surrounding arab states did a disservice to the indigenous arab people. But now Israel is acting like they want land more than peace, to me that is the currect problem.

        by mattes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:13:51 PM PDT

        •  I think Israel wants security...

          and is paranoid from the years of war and hostility.

          With true partners in peace, I suspect Israel would pull back to the 67 borders.  Though the Jerusalem issue seems intractable.

          Among the Arab groups, I think the Palestinians, Lebanese have a good deal in common with the Israelis, and could, in peace, become quite well off economically and culturally as a result of their commonalities.  

          by citizen53 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:30:31 PM PDT

          •  Olmert has gone on record that the

            west bank settlements will become part of israel, and if they really want peace why haven't they ONCE stopped building settlements since they started?

            by mattes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:39:32 PM PDT

            •  Because he has a perverted sense of security

              Originally, the settlements were for security, perhaps with good reason considering 56, 67. 73.

              Fear makes people and countries make poor choices.  Look at how America acts because of fear.

              Anyway, I'm off to play some tennis before the rain comes.  Nice exchange, though short.

              by citizen53 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:44:35 PM PDT

          •  Israel has chosen to take the land

            instead of peace.

            by curmudgiana on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 09:00:16 PM PDT

  •  Are you a TU?

    I ask because anyone who has looked at the Hidden Comments and can still write

    My preference would be to get rid of trusted users and troll ratings completely.  I like to read everything.  Is that not what free expression is about?

    must have a pretty strong stomach...

    by Allogenes on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:12:47 PM PDT

    •  Nope

      I stopped being a TU long ago.  I could care less.  And no comments are too much for my stomach.  I leave that to brussel sprouts.

      The whole TU/Troll process has become silly, in my opinion, as a long time user and visitor here.  Further, to me, and many others who are long gone, DailyKos is a mere shadow of it's old self.  Of course, there is a lot to read and learn, but just as much trash and ignorance.  I think the place has dumbed down as it's grown in popularity.    

      by citizen53 on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 01:22:24 PM PDT

      •  Probably inevitable -

        I'm sorry I wasn't around for the Good Old Days. (Just noticed your UID. Wow!)
        I certainly share your view of brussel sprouts...

        by