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The devastating Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change, released in Britain on Monday, should have gotten hour-long segments on television news and three-inch headlines in the U.S. No surprise that it didn't. If you took the time to drill down in what coverage there was here, you could see exactly what the Bush Regime is not doing.

Federal energy budget shows lack of interest

In the United States, annual federal spending for all energy research and development -- not just the research aimed at climate-friendly technologies -- is less than half what it was a quarter-century ago. It has sunk to $3 billion a year in the current budget from an inflation-adjusted peak of $7.7 billion in 1979, according to several different studies.

In fiscal 1981, the last year of Jimmy Carter's budget - and not coincidentally the year I and 140 others lost our jobs at the Solar Energy Research Institute (now the National Renewable Energy Laboratory) - spending for renewable energy sources was four times the current budget, adjusted for inflation.

Business as Usual

In an e-mailed statement, the White House Council on Environmental Quality said, "The U.S. government has produced an abundance of economic analysis on the issue of climate change. The Stern Report is another contribution to that effort."

The statement from spokeswoman Kristen Hellmer said the United States is "well on track to meet the president's goal to reduce greenhouse gas intensity of our economy 18 percent by 2012."

The problem, said Annie Petsonk of Environmental Defense, is that this goal essentially requires only the status quo.

"This is just business as usual for this economy," Petsonk said by telephone. "The result is no reduction in America's total greenhouse gas emissions."

What me, worry? seems to be the White House motto on many subjects, including global warming. Here's why anybody who isn't worrying ought to be:

Stern by the numbers
The level in the atmosphere of carbon dioxide, the principal greenhouse gas, stood at 280 parts per million by volume (ppm) before the Industrial Revolution, in about 1780. The level of CO2 in the atmosphere today stands at 382ppm

£200bn, or 1 per cent of global GDP, must be spent every year to get carbon dioxide levels to "stabilise" at 550ppm.

This figure will rise as world GDP increases, and could be three to four times as large by 2050

40 per cent of the world's species would face extinction if temperatures rose by 2C

200 million people are at risk of being driven from their homes by flood or drought by 2050

6C is a "plausible" estimate of how much world temperatures could rise by the end of the century if greenhouse gas emissions are unchecked

60 million more Africans could be exposed to malaria if world temperatures rise by 2C

35 per cent drop in crop yields across Africa and the Middle East is expected if temperatures rise by 3C

200 million more people could be exposed to hunger if world temperatures rise by 2C

550 million more people could be at risk of hunger if world temperatures rise by 3C

4 million square kilometres of land, home to one-twentieth of the world's population, is threatened by floods from melting glaciers

35,000 Europeans died in the 2003 heatwave, an event likely to become "commonplace"

4 billion people could suffer from water shortage if temperatures rise by 2C

Nothing here to see here, folks. Move along.

Originally posted to Daily Kos on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:32 PM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Unbelieveable to see those numbers (11+ / 0-)

    200 million people are at risk of being driven from their homes by flood or drought by 2050

    That's the equivalent of the entire population of the United States sometime in the 70's.

  •  It's incompetence and a lack of caring (5+ / 0-)

    I swear the only way these 'people' would get it is if they themselves were in mortal danger.

    Wait, I changed my mind, then the only thing they would be concerned with is how to save their own sorry asses and to hell with the rest of us.

    What a bunch of useless bastards.

    When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!

    by WI Dem on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:40:58 PM PST

    •  I know someone (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vivacia, WI Dem

      who calculated that even by the Stern report's standards of global GDP loss, present value of money discounted over the next century means it's "not worth" doing much more than we are to stop global warming.

      I think his numbers are kinda sorta right, but what he's missing is:

      • one GDP dollar is not the same as another. What I mean is that he is taking a "Never Mind the Quality, Feel the Width!" attitude that even in a world changed beyond recognition by global warming, we'll all be just as happy, because we'll all have just as much money. He's only considering the quantity of the product, and not the quality.
      • everyone doesn't care about gross product, because everyone doesn't see the gross product. GDP mainly benefits the rich, especially when the poor get poorer and more employable as servants.

      Basically, we disagree on the meaning of "worth". Even if he's right and the world total of wealth stays the same, we do not regard a world of increasing inequity and decreasing bounty (free air, free water, free land) as a good outcome.

      (there are those who do, of course)

      •  Ya gotta wonder (0+ / 0-)

        what planet these slimy sociopaths plan to live on, once they've devastated Earth.

        Shouldn't people who think like this be certified and locked away somewhere? If any of us were to display such selfishness and greed, we would at least be ostracized.

        Note to self: Rethink the concepts of value, wealth, success, honor, integrity, and authenticity.

    •  It's beyond that now... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Plan9, marina

      it's willfull disregard for human life. And not just humans of some far-distant future. The vast majority of persons born since 1975 will be affected by this. Every man, woman and child on the planet. Done in by greed.

      The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it -- GB Shaw

      by kmiddle on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 05:43:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  If they could make a few billion by (7+ / 0-)

    paving every arable acre on the planet...well, who are WE to think to stop them?

    Copyright 2006; "We work to bring the dawn!" -my gran'mère, who (at 15) fought Nazis in occupied France in 1943.

    by Monique Radevu on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:41:18 PM PST

    •  snark at it's finest! n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei

      When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!

      by WI Dem on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:42:44 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree with your obvious implication; (4+ / 0-)

      these are uncaring psychopaths;

      or cognitavely dissonant, thinking of themselves as fine people, without making the sacrifices or effort to really BE moral.

      •  good think kos accepts their ads (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Meteor Blades
        Hidden by:

        before they goto jail

        You will lie to your grandchildren when they ask what you did to prevent climate change.

        by Peter Pan on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:21:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Troll rated, untroll rated and then re-trolled (0+ / 0-)

          DailyKos needs no chickenshit berating. We just might save the fucking planet, and Marcos did a very good thing creating this particular site.

          Bite it harder. Or just nibble.

          -8.88 -5.08 Defeat the crook --CA-04: John Doolittle

          by SecondComing on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:27:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't agree with Peter ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marina, Peter Pan

            ...but I uprated to counter your zero because I didn't think his comment was troll-worthy; it's just an opinion.

            •  i meant chevron execs going to jail (0+ / 0-)

              not markos! (tho u all shud realize they are criminals)

              wait, markos did serve in the usa military which is the muscle for the mafia running the earth...


              Smedley Darlington Butler

              Major General - United States Marine Corps

              WAR is a racket. It always has been.

              It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

              A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

              In the World War [I] a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

              How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

              Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few – the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.

              well, we are all gonna pay the day greenland melts...

              we better learn to cooperate soon. (hey anyone notice that 30,000 small kids starved to death again yesterday?)

              You will lie to your grandchildren when they ask what you did to prevent climate change.

              by Peter Pan on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:49:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  If they could make a few billion (3+ / 0-)

      --by building new houses and office complexes when the coastal areas disappear

      --by building coffins

      --by selling malaria immunizations

      --by charging $20 for a loaf of bread

      --by selling more air conditioners

      and have less people on the planet getting in their way, well, what's it to us?

      Jon Kyl
      Incompetent, Bush's lapdog

      by Cato come back on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:04:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Oh, jeez. (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SarahLee, marina, eastvan, Cato come back

    Why did I hit refresh?

    This is...tough to read.  As is often the case, I'm torn between the individual response (how could I have turned on the heat last night? I'm going to turn it off right now) and the urge for a collective response.  The short-term collective response to this, I think, as to so many other things right now would be, elect Democrats.  Then push the hell out of them.  Then elect a Democratic president, and push the hell out of him (playing the odds with the gendered pronoun there).

    Meanwhile, I actually feel like environmentalism might could be the next great non-electoral social movement.  It represents so concrete a danger, and is an issue where there is some sense of individual impact (even if what we really need is much more broad-based change), that I have this sense (perhaps optimistic) that this could be what gets people motivated to do something.

  •  The CBC led with this tonight, (10+ / 0-)

    and treated it with the seriousness it deserves.

    well, this is Canada.

    •  For the time being. We'll (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei
      see when the Alberta mafia get finished with it.

      Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

      by oxon on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:58:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  all depends on the Liberal party rallying behind (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Prince Vogelfrei, Brass Tacks

        Bob Rae or Michael Ignatieff once their leadership convention chooses; that must be any day now, yes?

        I would think Harper would be hard pressed to consolidate an actual majority unless the Liberals shoot themselves in the foot or nearby appendage...

        Copyright 2006; "We work to bring the dawn!" -my gran'mère, who (at 15) fought Nazis in occupied France in 1943.

        by Monique Radevu on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:04:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Excellent - and I think they vote very soon on (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Monique Radevu

          that; I"ll google the Globe for the date.

          •  December. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei

            Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

            by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:10:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  wow! seems they've been at it forever already. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Prince Vogelfrei

              Kennedy is the one without any French, so he's running to finish a strong 3rd, to stake a bigger role in the party, but the Liberals must win back what the Tories, & lesser extent le Bloc, took from them in la belle province, so the new leader better not mangle la plus belle langue.

              But environmental, & civil liberty & social issues all resonate strongly in Québec, & are incompatible with the stuffy moralizing & petroleum industry ties of the CRAP (conservative reform alliance party), so I anticipate Stephen the Stiff Harper will see no majority, barring disaster...

              Copyright 2006; "We work to bring the dawn!" -my gran'mère, who (at 15) fought Nazis in occupied France in 1943.

              by Monique Radevu on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:17:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I agree. God, I hope it's not (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei
          'torture can prevent the greater evil' Ignatieff.  Then again, I'm not sure how well Bob, (for whom I retain an immense respect, despite the number of times we disagree.  I guess it's an inter oxonian thing), will play in Ontario.  Hampton STILL can't get out from under the shadow.  Kennedy?

          But you're right.  A Harper majority is unlikely, but look how much they're trashing on the way out.  It's like they know this is their only chance.

          AND there is one big advantage to living in Canada -- paper ballots!

          Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

          by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:09:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  2000 federal election LATER than the US, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Monique Radevu, oxon

            but finished next day. All handcounted and recounted in front of scrutineers from all parties.

            Any result within point 1 per cent MUST be recounted before a magistrate, which might take two days, 3 tops.

            And then we waited for the courts in Florida to decide if it was proper to recount in a paper thin majority situation? and waited and waited. Quite asinine.

          •  Ignatieff was NOT supporting W, has contempt for (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Monique Radevu, oxon

            the man. He's been clear about THAT, even though he's used diplomatic language. But he's made clear the Rumsfeld occupation has been incompetent from day the first.

            •  Agreed. But about three years ago (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ningen, Monique Radevu
              he gave the Massey Lectures, I believe.  CBC should have it archived -- /ideas.  In those lectures he discussed the concept of torture in
              an approving light.

              He has also, before running for Parliament, given explicit approval for the idea of an American Empire.  He is probably the leading Candian proponent of the idea.

              His criticism of Bush/Rumsfeld policies in Iraq and Afghanistan is similar to that of many republicans.  As you say, it is about competence, not the basic concepts of what was being attempted -- US control of South and Central Asia in an Imperial context.

              Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

              by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:27:45 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I believe his thinking has evolved - then these (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Prince Vogelfrei

                things were theoretical; now- all too reality-tested.

                Copyright 2006; "We work to bring the dawn!" -my gran'mère, who (at 15) fought Nazis in occupied France in 1943.

                by Monique Radevu on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:29:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, his statements on Empire were (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei
                  made as the invasions were taking place.  His last vote on the issue in the commons was to keep Canadian Forces under US command in their lets-keep-the-pipeline-route-alive war in Afghanistan.

                  I don't see where three years has made a difference.  He may oppose indiscriminate, Abu Graib torture, but he has never, to my awareness, and lord knows I could be wrong, recanted his basic position.

                  This is also the man who told us in the 1990's that there were no differences between serbs and croats.

                  There is much about Ignatieff I like.  And i'd certainly prefer him Mr. Alberta Firewall, but...

                  When is Justin running, that's what I want to know?

                  On another topic, is your grandmother still alive?  I love your tag line.

                  Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

                  by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:44:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes! more alive than most ever are ;-) (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Prince Vogelfrei

                    79 soon, does all her own gardening, paints all the time, always writing letters to, sadly, an ever shrinking circle of vieux amis...

                    She was honored by the Republique after the war.

                    I get something in the snail mail from her twice a week! she snorts at the idea of having a computer...

                    A lot of my thinking about Ignatieff comes from reading his bio of Isaiah Berlin; Bob Rae also says Berlin was a key influence, & half the faculty here at Wolfson College has a Berlin story (Sir Isaiah was the 1st President & a prime mover in its birth)

                    & I'm sure he'd remind us a search for perfection w/o compromise in the political realm is a tempting mirage. ;-)

                    With that caveat, I will agree, there's something of Bobby Kennedy in Justin Trudeau; seems admirable in every way.

                    Copyright 2006; "We work to bring the dawn!" -my gran'mère, who (at 15) fought Nazis in occupied France in 1943.

                    by Monique Radevu on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:06:11 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Shite! You're at Wolfson?! I did my (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei
                      DPhil at St Cross (in St Giles).  Do we still row together?  God, it's what, now, about 3rd week?

                      Yes, I knew the Berlin connection, I'm just not a big fan?  Of Berlin's that is.  

                      As for perfection... no... it's just that if one does not categorically rule out torture and participation in empire, then it's a slippery slope into both.

                      I don't agree with Rae or Justin 100% of the time, either, but I do on the essentials.  And that's the difference.

                      I'll probably stump for Jack, though, as po'd as I am with him for having brought down the last government.  

                      What a treasure of stories your grand-mere must be.  

                      Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

                      by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:20:51 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Just started Michaelmas 4th, so almost midway (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        Not a rower personally...

                        & now we know your handle isn't mucked up with oxoncontin...

                        Copyright 2006; "We work to bring the dawn!" -my gran'mère, who (at 15) fought Nazis in occupied France in 1943.

                        by Monique Radevu on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:35:02 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  In the meantime, maybe we should (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei
      throw CBC Newsworld onto US cable.  It might make a difference to us both...

      Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

      by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:00:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Blame Canada.. (0+ / 0-)

      The anthem

      -8.88 -5.08 Defeat the crook --CA-04: John Doolittle

      by SecondComing on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:28:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  And it looks like we're dead in the water til 08 (7+ / 0-)

    Bush will veto, or add signing statements that gut any legislation that doesn't suit him.  

    They're closing EPA research libraries as we speak.  

    These bastards are going to destroy the place on their way out.

    Who knew? Chamonix. But did he tell us? NO!

    by 2lucky on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:47:46 PM PST

    •  Hey, did you hear (6+ / 0-)

      how the Clinton staff trashed the White House on their way out?  I heard that, on Fox News.  Aren't you just trying to deflect attention from that bit of outrageousness?

      •  Haha...good one Miss Laura...n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cato come back

        When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!

        by WI Dem on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:54:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ha! I was going to comment about that, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mightymouse, Cato come back

        but I didn't want to piss myself off all over again.  

        What vile pettiness, from a bunch of mobsters who planned to burn the buildings down.

        The American public still, I don't think doesn't understand what Bushco is about: destroying government.  I bet most people would say Republicans are just too friendly with big business, and have too much power.  If I said no, they're intentionally breaking the bank, and intentionally killing government, their response would be that I'm the crazy one.

        I am so afraid for my daughter's future.  

        Who knew? Chamonix. But did he tell us? NO!

        by 2lucky on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:55:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Actually, I'm wondering... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cato come back
      IF, IF we end up with a significant majority in the house AND a majority in the senate (please let it be Lieberman-free), signing statements might produce one hell of a constitutional crisis.  That could get decidedly ugly, and may be enough to prompt impeachment as the only solution.


      I feel much better already!

      Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

      by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:04:32 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Do they want that constitutional crisis, or what? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marina, Cato come back

        Despite large public disapproval, the Rs (and Joe, of course) considered impeachment an imperative.  

        But when the President willfully defies Congress at every turn, impeachment is crazy talk.  But, even if we do take the Senate (which I tend to doubt), I don't see it.  We don't have the leadership on the matter.  

        Who knew? Chamonix. But did he tell us? NO!

        by 2lucky on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:12:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I understand the pessimism, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          its only the rubber-stamping that's allowed the signing statements to go over the top, and the idea of the president being supreme to take hold in what's left of George's tiny mind.

          Our leadership will be there if the numbers are.  And any number of people in the House/Senate are chomping at the bit to take Mr. Unitary down several pegs.

          I stand by the forecast: Constitutional crisis by March, IF we're bullet proof in the House, and have a majority in the senate.

          Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

          by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:18:58 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The only way I see the signing statement (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marina, oxon

            situation changing is we have enough seats in the house and/or senate to override a veto.  That's not even possible, under the the most optimistic scenario.    

            I absolutely agree with you on a looming constitutional crisis.  

            Who knew? Chamonix. But did he tell us? NO!

            by 2lucky on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:29:13 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

  •  One aspect of these numbers that (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing, Cato come back
    must be borne is that the levels of atmospheric CO2 had been relatively constant prior to the industrial revolution suggesting two facets of the problem we face.

    One is that global warming and cooling can and do occur for reasons not related to CO2 levels, over broad expanses of time -- sunspots, volcanic dust, perturbations of the planet's orbit, etc, etc.

    Two is that the rise of atmospheric CO2 following the advent of the industrial revolution means that human activity, both in the form of increased emissions, and in elimination of forests since that date, is the only viable culprit.  QED.

    More carbon in the atmosphere means increased warming.  QED

    So while the industry nay sayers would like to point to the first item above, they cannot escape the irrevocable conclusions of the second.

    Thanks very much for your post.

    Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

    by oxon on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:48:40 PM PST

    •  Wait till the Amazon starts decaying (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SecondComing, marina, Cato come back, oxon

      and releasing all that CO2

      Tim Flannery's The Weather Makers warned of a number of "tipping points" in the global climate system which could dramatically accelerate climate change.  One of these was the Amazon rain forest. While we think of the Amazon as one of the wettest places on Earth, isotope studies have shown that it effectively creates its own rain.  Moisture blown over from the Atlantic Ocean is constantly absorbed and effectively transported west by transpiration (and then ultimately flows east again in the rivers). Any disruption in this cycle - either in the amount of moisture input, or in the level of transpiration - could therefore have dramatic effects, and models have predicted that the Amazon could disappear and turn into a desert if we see the sorts of temperature rises and climate shifts we are expecting if CO2 emissions continue unchecked.  And this in turn would release vast amounts of carbon from rotting trees and warmer soils.

      The models Flannery talked about predicted that this could start happening around 2040, and be complete by 2100.  But it might be happening sooner than we think - and the culprit is drought.  A story in today's Independent (and syndicated to the Herald) reports that the Amazon is highly sensitive to drought, and could suddenly transform to a desert if severe drought persists for two successive years.

      The Amazon is currently beginning its second year of drought.  The Amazon is estimated to contain 90 billion tons of CO2 - and that if this was released, it would increase the rate of global warming by 50 per cent.

  •  whereforartthou Al (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cato come back, WI Dem

    run, run , run

    we need you

  •  Why has the universe given us (10+ / 0-)

    the confluence the stupidest, most destructive and immoral leader ever to govern the U.S., the most powerful country in the world fading empire though it is, and the greatest global crisis in human history? Thoughts?

    Would a government who lied to get us into a war, steal an election?

    by moon in the house of moe on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:53:12 PM PST

  •  Alarming (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cato come back, WI Dem

    Simply trying to restrain CO2 levels is probably not feasible. 1% of world GDP? Growing to maybe 4%? I'd like to be optimistic, but that's not going to cut it.

    This just shows how lame our administration has been. While they were turning an Iraqi molehill into a mountain, the fuse has been burning on this. And, what are they doing about China? And, what are they doing about our dependence on Saudi oil? And, what are they doing on overpopulation?

    Liberal Thinking

    Think, liberally.

    by Liberal Thinking on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:53:52 PM PST

  •  It's evil to me (4+ / 0-)

    It's not like just the end of an empire by this sticking their heads in the sand and just "grabbing the gold", it's the end of the planet.

    To me, it's evil incarnate, greed, pride, power at all costs....

    by BobOak on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:55:03 PM PST

  •  Ummm, I have an idea! (3+ / 0-)

    Ok, granted, maybe it's not the brightest as it's 2am here, but...let's storm the white house and demand the idiot chimp take these issues seriously.

    Ahhh, never mind, i'm just thinking of that old thing called 'democracy' again.

    When you get to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on!

    by WI Dem on Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 11:58:00 PM PST

  •  Reminds me of the foolish "jock" doing ads (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cato come back

    against stem cells in MO, you know the guy who says..."We might have to wait 15 years for results." It also reminds me of the quick fix they kept trying to do on the leeves in NO, instead of spending the time and money to do it right. "When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn." Thanks for another excellent Front page diary MB. You and Al Rodgers are batting a 1000. Something for everyone.  

    I am typing my fingers to the bone for Harry, his little hippie River, us, and America.

    by Chamonix on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:03:47 AM PST

  •  What's the adjustment for inflation (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing, Cato come back

    of environmental erosion since 1981? I mean it so much worse that the funding is decreased and the problem has exponentially increased in the passing years.

    I seems silly for us to expect the funding to be on par or equal to 1981 levels when the problem is so much worse today. Shouldn't the funding be increased to the scale of the environmental threat and erosion we face instead?

    The obvious answer is yes - but, the best we can do is lament a 25 year old budget regarding it? This is so freaking sad!

    The whole Iraq war investment would have come in rather handy toward a solution and renewable infrastructure... What dangerous idiots the administration is/are/were/will be!

    The "Bush Legacy" makes me laugh - "I killed the planet. Yes, I furthered it on a nearly  irreversible course towards mass suffering and ultimate death. I ruined our investment power to solve it in the future, but my ranch in Paraguay is safe."

    A native American chief a long time ago said, "American leaders will have to realize someday that they cannot eat, drink or breathe a dollar."

  •  35,0000 Died in 2003 from Heat in Europe? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Wow, I never knew it was that many. How'd I miss that #?

    One of two things is going on;

    Either the loss of life not due to terrorist attacks is really under-reported and under-emphasized


    I guess I hold individual lives to a higher moral importance personally, and obviously need to recalibrate my sensetivity to mass death.

    Who knows?

    Viewing the world through my Kos colored lenses.
    Skinner For MI-9

    by The 1n Only Leoni on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:11:12 AM PST

    •  35,000. (0+ / 0-)

      You typoed an extra zero in there.  So when you say

      Wow, I never knew it was that many.

      it really wasn't that many.

      Ha ha.  I've been noticing that I've got a few typos myself tonight.  Tired but can't drag my butt away from DK.

      Jon Kyl
      Incompetent, Bush's lapdog

      by Cato come back on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:22:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  younger dryas, revisited (3+ / 0-)

    most of europe's population lives at the same latitudes as much of canada. even rome is north of new york city! the reason these european regions are much more inhabitable than their north american counterparts is because of the north atlantic current, which flows up from africa, bringing warm air, and the moisture that keeps the british isles so green. at the end of the last ice age, as the northern hemisphere heated up, making it generally much more inhabitable, the influx of fresh water from melting glaciers in north america suppressed the flow of salt water in the north atlantic current, preventing the warm air from flowing. within a modern person's average lifetime, the warming in europe from the end of the ice age changed to a sudden mini ice age, called the younger dryas. in exactly such a manner, global warming could actually cause another mini ice age in europe. it would destroy crops, and render much of the north almost uninhabitable. tens of millions of people would be displaced. the possible geo-political consequences are almost unimaginable.

    Nature is not only more complex than we think. It is more complex than we can think.

    -Frank Egler

    © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

    by Laurence Lewis on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:11:43 AM PST

    •  Yes, only small changes in global forces could (3+ / 0-)

      modify the path of the Gulf Stream, & the corresponding Japanese warm current that keeps Vancouver & the US NW moderate.

      •  a giant chemistry experiment, (4+ / 0-)

        with unknown consequences, we're playing with our atmosphere. playing chicken with extinction.

        © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

        by Laurence Lewis on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:00:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  perhaps they think terra-forming distant worlds (3+ / 0-)

          can be accomplished by any goof on a Republican email list; like all those 'reconstruction' hires in Iraq.

          •  but i LIKE the idea of terra-forming! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Prince Vogelfrei

            if we win the election, my new sig line will be:

            we've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
            -capt. malcolm reynolds

            kbr was clearly the creative team behind miranda!

            © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

            by Laurence Lewis on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:49:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Great idea; but the 20-year old koolaid drinkers (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Turkana, Monique Radevu

              would execute as uselessly as a Kristol prognosticates;

              not all 20 year olds are Moniques;

              and NO republican contractor a tenth her wattage.

              •  but without them there, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei

                living in their sanitized society, and inadvertently creating reavers, what would we have to fight against? god forbid the world be so designed that a monique has nothing legitimate against which to rebel! and god forbid there be too many of her wattage, lest we all be blinded by the effulgence!

                © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

                by Laurence Lewis on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 03:25:52 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Prefulgent she is, but better many of her kind; (3+ / 0-)

                  and fewer fools.
                  Defines self-evident.

                  My point was that those blind to environmental degradation may be wishfully thinking of escape to another world once Terra is reduced to a garbage dump.

                  But if we can't survive in the world where we evolved, which we are near perfectly suited;

                  then we won't be able to thrive on Titan or Mars- specially if the make-safe engineering of said alternate home is left to hacks hired for political loyalty- ike the kids hired for the failed reconstruction of Iraq with its Emerald City. The Green Zone is just as much of a sham as the mighty Wizard behind the screen.

                  •  even if that fantasy were plausible (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei

                    we're already way too far behind, anyway. as don henley sang:

                    there is no more new frontier
                    we have got to make it here

                    and i'll forgive the "have got"- a major pet peeve!

                    i don't think their escape fantasies lie in the realm of sci fi so much as that of theo-babble- not flight, but rapture.

                    but one thing we do know: these people are very adept at destroying things. putting things together? not so much...

                    © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

                    by Laurence Lewis on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 04:02:06 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I've the perfect countering quote: (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Turkana, Monique Radevu

                      "the unexpected syntheses of creative minds are a kind of angelflower that can only arise from the most caring heart...& the twin blessings of life are love, & the kiss to that heart that beauty brings."

                      That's Monique, she was 15 then.

                      So there are destroyers, but the creators can match them.

                      •  were i an objective observer (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Monique Radevu, Prince Vogelfrei

                        i'd call it a fascinating race- for a paradigm shattering transcension, or for "the clampdown."

                        so when you're asked to fight a war that's over nothing
                        you know it's best to join the side that's gonna win
                        and no one's sure how all of this got started
                        but we're gonna make 'em goddamn certain how it's gonna end
                        -conor oberst

                        © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

                        by Laurence Lewis on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:12:03 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't want that objectivity; (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          I'm glad to be engaged. Existentialism; in the crucible of struggle I make my soul.

                          Although if it's phrased that way, it sounds like Hesse as well as Sartre.

                          I haven't heard of Oberst, except as a German miltary rank- Group Captain sounds right. I've seen too many WW2 movies, no doubts.
                          So I could either ask the monkey or check wikipedia.
                          And I just did- I also found this

                          •  that's hilarious! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Prince Vogelfrei

                            oberst is very emotionally intense, but it's not all down- although much of the best is. i showed this to monique, in one of our very first exchanges (although i think she's yet to listen to him):

                            And I know you have a heavy heart, I can feel it when we kiss
                            So many men stronger than me
                              have thrown their backs out trying to lift it
                            But me I'm not a gamble, you can count on me to split
                            The love I sell you in the evening by the morning won't exist

                            You're looking skinny like a model with your eyes all painted black
                            Just keep going to the bathroom, always say you'll be right back
                            Well, it takes one to know one, kid, I think you've got it bad
                            But what's so easy in the evening by the morning's such a drag

                            I got a flask inside my pocket, we can share it on the train
                            And if you promise to stay conscious I will try and do the same
                            We might die from medication, but we sure killed all the pain
                            But what was normal in the evening by the morning seems insane

                            it's acoustic, probably a classical guitar, and definitely fits the onion's description. but let's not cheer him up! he's there to do it for us!

                            as for objectivity...

                            yeah, as monique can tell you, i don't really believe in the concept. niels bohr and all.

                            © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

                            by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 01, 2006 at 03:04:24 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, there's my misspent youth right there! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            although more grass than whiskey flask, and when I had an interested girl I ended up boring her to sleep with long talk about bands and my own wild dreams.

                            Your quote would fit with Drugstore Cowboy. That kind of story was that of a lot of my generation; I was born in 52 and saw the best and worst of that crazy time.

                            and I should thank you for all your long dialogues with our amazing friend; she needs that kind of mental pingpong, even though she's really gregarious now, away from the computer. I have the feeling she has some extraordinary novel in her. She writes the strangest short stories, reminding me of Angela Carter to a degree. One of the odd things is she'll switch from imitating Kafka to unexpectedly a bit of SJ Perelman or Wodehouse.

                            Always moving from pain to comedy, that's the big pattern.

                          •  i can't imagine her diffident in rl! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Prince Vogelfrei

                            or anywhere! and she definitely keeps me on my toes. always a joy to engage & wrangle with such a lively mind and inadvertently pure heart. all those voices in her head, and eagerly awaiting her own. or not quite realizing she's already found it!

                            and i also quite relate to that quote. have some songs of my own in a similar vein. my own misspent youth had other colors, as i grew up in the 'burbs west of portland, where magic fungi grew on autumn mornings. sadly, a friend's brother pretty much lived drugstore cowboy. but i'm the consummate child of the '60s. our generation didn't get a cool moniker like boomers or xers, but we did get the beatles, stones, and s & g as background music!

                            © 2006 "The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream will never die." -Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, 12 August 1980

                            by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 01, 2006 at 03:48:44 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Making a case for SUGAR... (0+ / 0-)

              Pardon the upthread, terra-farming/desalination/establishing third world agrarian middle class, are all part of a large discussion about SUGAR based ethanol.  

              Downthread I offer my searching for the ethanol "facts and foibles", and below is a comment from another diary comment.

              Peace,let's head to 250 mpg.

              The key is "boiling temp of water", moonshiners in the hills are 5 degrees hotter than moonshiners in the holler.

              But the thing is, don't let it become a Haiti/Mariana Islands deal, "lift all boats" and pay a dollar a gallon.

              Add desalination/terrafarming/organic agricultural  and solar generation concepts NOT CORPORATE BASED.  

              For Jeffersonian Democracy, the "starting point" is building an agrarian middle class.  

              If the target is "green", make this the superest greenest idea yet.

              So, look into SUGAR based ethanol, I can make a case that this is the "hula hoop" energy idea we can use to get a green policy discussion begun


              George Allen < "Please run in 2008!! We like the cut of his timbers"

              by Theghostofkarlafayetucker on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 05:19:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  And complicating this further is (3+ / 0-)
      an increase of evaporation rate as surface temperatures rise.  This leaves behind a higher salt concentration which is heavier, and will then sink.  A further disruption to the moderating flow.

      Is the victim moral? -- Nietzsche.

      by oxon on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:11:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Unfortunately GOP "solutions" involve Boiling (0+ / 0-)

    water nuclear reactors(no doubt repayment for campaign contributions) which can meltdown(TMI) Blowup(Cherynobl) and the stolen fuel fed into breader reactors to make bombs(Coming soon).

    While they still have a waste problem. Pebble bed modular reactor(Pebble reactors for short) that apparently been perfected by mainland china;having beenab andoned by the west in the 1950's in lieu of the boiling water reactor

    Be carefull what you shoot at, most things in here don't react well to bullets-Sean Connery .... Captain Marko Ramius -Hunt For Red October

    by JML9999 on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:27:44 AM PST

  •  More links (4+ / 0-)

    Dangerous climate change is hitting Africa hard say top aid and environment groups

    A new report from unique coalition of the UK’s leading development and environment agencies says the international community must act now, or Africa will go ‘Up in smoke.’

    Climate change is already having serious impacts on peoples’ lives across Africa, and is set to get much worse unless urgent action is taken according to a report from a coalition of UK development and environment agencies. The report is released in the run up to the next major UN Conference on climate change in Nairobi and the publication of the Treasury’s Stern review on the economics of climate change.

    The report, Africa – Up in Smoke 2, is based on the latest available scientific research and evidence from those living on the front line of global warming.  It shows that climate change is already having serious impacts on peoples’ lives across Africa – and is set to get much worse unless urgent action is taken.

    Africa is already warmer by 0.5°C than it was 100 years ago, putting extra strain on water resources. According to the UK’s Hadley Centre, temperature increases over many areas of Africa will be double the global average increase, and drought patterns stand to worsen catastrophically.

    Act on green taxes now or the world will pay terrible price

    In a leaked letter to the Chancellor, David Miliband, the Environment Secretary, has proposed a package of environmental taxes meant to encourage people to use public transport, buy smaller cars and fly less. These include charges on petrol-guzzling cars, road pricing, a £5 levy on airline travel in Europe and £10 for longer-haul flights, and higher charges for dumping waste in landfills.

    African apocalypse: The continent burning into a desert

    Nobel laureate delivers talk on global warming

    Sustainable growth and improvements in technology are the key ingredients for limiting the impact of climate change, while developed nations need to get serious about reducing emissions, Nobel laureate Thomas Schelling said in Taoyuan yesterday.

    "We should not attempt to urge developing countries to sacrifice development significantly in the interest of holding down greenhouse emissions," Schelling said in a speech on global warming and climate change delivered at the National Central University.

    Schelling shared last year's Nobel Prize in Economics with Robert Aumann for his work utilizing game-theory to understand conflict and cooperation.

    "Developed countries like my country and yours probably should devote the next decade to not only taking this problem seriously, but demonstrating to countries like China that we are taking this seriously," he said.

    Only then, he said, can developed nations ask the developing world to "climb on board."

    In the long run, we're all dead (Keynes)
    Read more on the European Tribune - bringing dKos to Europe

    by Jerome a Paris on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 12:47:48 AM PST

    •  Washington Post today (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jerome a Paris

      Warming Called Threat To Global Economy

      Failing to curb the impact of climate change could damage the global economy on the scale of the Great Depression or the world wars by spawning environmental devastation that could cost 5 to 20 percent of the world's annual gross domestic product, according to a report issued yesterday by the British government.

      Article seems slanted towards the "why worry" point of view:

      "There's just a very small part of GDP" in industrialized nations "that's affected by weather in a direct or indirect way," said Jerry Taylor, a senior fellow at the libertarian Cato Institute, which accepts some contributions from fossil-fuel companies. "It's very difficult to sketch out this disaster scenario."

      Jon Kyl
      Incompetent, Bush's lapdog

      by Cato come back on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:36:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What an IDIOT!!!! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cato come back

        "There's just a very small part of GDP" in industrialized nations "that's affected by weather in a direct or indirect way,"

        It's not the WEATHER you asshole, it's GLOBAL ECOLOGICAL COLLAPSE!!!!!!!!!!

        The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it -- GB Shaw

        by kmiddle on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 05:56:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Come on people (4+ / 0-)

    Solving the global warming problem isn't going to stop a single gay couple from getting married.  Where ARE your priorities?

  •  dont drive alone (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cato come back

    everyone drive less buy less eat less meat!

    set an example. we all have used more resources than our share already in our lifetime.

    You will lie to your grandchildren when they ask what you did to prevent climate change.

    by Peter Pan on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:34:16 AM PST

  •  Suicide is painless, it brings on many changes.. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Cato come back

    The theme song from MASH as national policy is irony incarnate.

    I only procreated oncet. I sure hope the boy has better leaders than I did. Maybe the Chinese can run the planet better than our current crop of morons. It's a really cool planet, pink flamingo lawn ornaments notwithstanding.

    Or maybe they'll build a really cool spaceship.

    -8.88 -5.08 Defeat the crook --CA-04: John Doolittle

    by SecondComing on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 01:57:54 AM PST

  •  Where is the pro-life crowd on this? (0+ / 0-)

    Millions of people will die from global warming.

    Today "balance in the media" means a balance between political fact and conservative ideology.

    by Joe B on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:28:04 AM PST

  •  Meanwhile, Markos is "fixated on 2016, not 2006." (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    As he said here.

    Like I said in comments, we really can't wait that long.

    Maybe Markos wasn't thinking when he wrote that post, but it's important to remember that reason we want to succeed politically is to deal with genuine problems.  And global warming tops that list.  

    If the U.S. doesn't start reining in its greenhouse gas production until after the 2016 elections, those of us alive at midcentury will curse the Bush Administration and its successors far more for their inaction on climate change than for the Iraq catastrophe.

    "It means that we can't be scared out of who we are. And that's victory, folks." -- Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift

    by RT on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:45:14 AM PST

  •  I get 250 miles per gallon, the answer is SUGAR (0+ / 0-)

    My bona fides: In the Carter years we put up over 10,000 storm windows in 6 years.

    Last year I saw the handwriting on the wall, jumped in a fun hobby business.  9 out of 10 of these American made ingenious engines go to Korea and recently Australia. - Ada, Oklahoma - Alabama man retaliates against high gas prices

    100 miles per gallon These bikes beat the Saudis, oil companies

    The Nashville News

    So, I have went out searching for the solution, and it is SUGAR/SUGAR CANE.

    Cornbased ethanol is a hoax, I talked to farmers in the midwest who would not burn it, saw towns in Oklahoma who banned the sale of ethanol, because there are no "standards", too much water and things "vapor lock".

    But Australia is making contracts with the third world for Sugar Cane syrup.  This is no Nuclear Bomb hoax, they are seriously getting into the Sugar Cane research/importation business.  Sugar is the cheapest thing to convert to flammable alcohol.

    It could be used to normalize relations with Cuba.  If a fair market price is offered, it could build up an agrarian middle class.  If it is looked at as a "foreign policy", make a sugar production/import policy that has education/health factors for the growers as a conjunctive benefit.
    "Raise all boats".

    It could be developed with 21st century American ingenuity, like de-salination plants in arid areas, solar plants for electric generation, and especially schools and clinics.  
    Sugar cane is a hard labor intensive industry, and if we pay fair market prices, insure fair treatment of the growers/laborers, don't let ADM / ConAgra / Dole grab up the idea, it would fix us up in three or four years.

    The Problem?  Big Sugar lobby and tariffs on sugar syrup.  That is what keeps us "dependent".  

    George Allen < "he's stepped in something again !"

    by Theghostofkarlafayetucker on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:53:57 AM PST

  •  Sadly I barely have time to even comment. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, Plan9, marina

    Or even read much. But in the coming debates on the costs of addressing global warming and the costs of doing nothing, it is important to keep in mind that ecosystem services - economic and other benefits to humans derived from a healthy environment - have never really been evaluated and are simply assumed to be there, like air. If they are not there, the absence will certainly be felt.

    Adding to the growing body of literature on the subject, two new articles from PLoS Biology:

    Conservation Planning for Ecosystem Services

    Mapping the Economic Costs and Benefits of Conservation

  •  Stern is an economist (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, marina

    Stern is an economist who worked at the World Bank. His solution to every problem is growth. He just wants to substitute "smart" growth.

    What he, and everyone else wringing their hands over the climate change issue (see, for example Al Gore), ignores is that we have an ever expanding world population in a world where we are entering an era of permanent resource shortages.

    What is needed is some understanding that we need to readjust our society so that it operates in a sustainable fashion. This means that we need to shrink our use of material "stuff" whether energy or finished goods. Less developed regions need to move directly into a steady-state lifestyle and not try to emulate our wasteful ways.

    Growth is not the answer in an era of limited resources. There are no politicians nor economists willing to face this fact.

    I suggest reading the ideas of ecological economist Herman Daly. Here is a good place to start:
    Steady-State Economics

    My 2 cents on how the capitalist model will no longer work in such a society here:
    Planning for a No-Growth Society

    •  And some people here say (0+ / 0-)

      Lyndon LaRouche is nuts.

      One of the most notable peculiarities of the process of replenishing necessary fossil resources, and of generating new types of useful fossils, is the fact, that progress is not merely an option. A zero-growth policy is intrinsically a genocidal policy, a policy which is potentially the most effective of the means by which mankind might choose to destroy itself as a species. Mankind is a species whose physical characteristic is cognitive anti-entropy. It is by raising the level of that anti-entropy, that our species obtains the increased power to replenish, or supersede the fossil resources needed for sustaining human life, such as by inventing and amassing new categorical types of fossils which supersede that which we were depleting.

      I don't think so. He's referring to such as this: The Isotope Economy (PDF) or this `Fusion Torch' Can Create New Raw Materials (PDF).


      Call your county's election office and be SURE you are recognized as registered to vote. Don't assume anything.

      by We hold these truths on Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 08:29:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Hey! My Dad was a programmer at SERI! (0+ / 0-)

    He went to Boeing after Reagan shut it down.

    Wow - so much nostalgia the last couple'a days. First Digby talks about where I was raised (Bellevue, WA), and now Daily Kos is talkin bout where I was before I was where I was raised.


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