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North Korean Nuclear Test (Political) Fallout

Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:17:45 AM PDT

There's going to be some interesting political fallout from the North Korean nuclear test, not all of it directly involving the U.S. -- which really can't be blamed for everything that goes wrong in the world all the time.

One victim of the test may be the remaining relationship between Pyongyang and Beijing, once North Korea's closest ally and still its largest supplier of fuel and possibly of food. While the two sides have never been "as close as lips and teeth" as was claimed, China continued to help out North Korea for ideological and historical reasons tied to the Korean War.

China however, wasn't happy about the underground blast, issuing a warning through its United Nations ambassador earlier in diplomatically strong language that it didn't want North Korea to procede with the test. Afterwards China called North Korea's actions ``brazen'' disregard for world opinion. There will probably be more to come.

``North Korea, which once listened to China, now clearly isn't listening to China and is thumbing its nose at the six- party process hosted by China,'' Guan Anping, a former official at China's Ministry of Foreign Trade and the managing partner of Beijing-based law firm Anping & Partners., told Bloomberg News ``It also illustrates China no longer has such a big leverage over North Korea as it used to.''

The timing of the test seemed aimed at part in embarrassing China, which had just played host to Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. China, which has been known to delibrately wrong-foot Japanese prime ministers in past, didn't do so on this occassion, so I'm pretty sure the Chinese were sincere in their opposition to the test.

There have been past indignities too. There's a much-told story -- which I believe is true but for which I don't have definitive proof -- that North Korea was the casting vote AGAINST Beijing getting the 2000 Olypics, which went to Sydney instead. I don't know what slight that was in revenge for.

There was also the matter of Pyongyang continually extorting bribes from Chinaas its price for attending successive rounds of the six-nation nuclear talks in Beijing, which China hosted and in which it had invested a lot of prestige. North Korea managed to get a bottling plant and at least two visits by senior Chinese officials out of China, and then ended up walking away from the talks anyway when the U.S. imposed (quite modest and well-deserved) financial sactions on North Korea.

When you add to the equation the fact that China's relationships with the U.S. and South Korea (ties with Seoul are actually quite warm) are now economically much more important than its ties with Pyongyang the historical reasons for China backing North Korea are now looking prett tenuous. China's leadership isn't comprised of firebrand Maoist ideologues, but pragmatists (and often careerists) more in the mode of Deng Xiaoping.

The other big question is what this does to China's relationship with Japan, which is becomming more assertative, partly in reaction to China's rise and the relative U.S. withdrawal from the region. Japan is still a big important country, even with a declining population and an economy that's growing very slowly, and it can't always let China set the agenda in Asia. Managing this jockeying process is important.

Will the North Korean nuclear test draw the countries together, or push them apart? Either could happen, depending on the two countries' responses to the tests. North Korea often uses rhetoric against Tokyo that would make you think that it was still 1936, and Korea Central News Agency has made not-so-veiled threats to nuke Japanese cities (luckily it can't fulfill that promise yet).

China doesn't regard North Korea as evil in the same way the U.S. does, and as a result isn't quite as scared of Kim or as convinced he's completely irrational or crazy (personally, he seems as crazy as a fox to me; the madman act aimed at keeping him in power by making hime seem dangerous). China won't be reluctant to make some use of the main non-military weapon at its disposal, the cutting off of fuel aid to North Korea.

As well, the five nations who were in talks with North Korea (China, Japan, Russia, the U.S. and South Korea) will for once be more or less on the same page -- condemning something that North Korea has done and willing to at least contemplate harsh measures. UPDATE: I should clarify that China may act on its own to punish North Korea; collective action isn't a given. China has often preferred to act alone, and the US doesn't make cooperation easy under its current management.

Tags: North Korea, Nuclear, China, U.S., South Korea, Korea, Japan, Russia (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 30 comments

  •  Tips (18+ / 0-)

    Longer and a bit less focused than I might have liked, but still may have some useful info/analysis.

    Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

    by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:16:59 AM PDT

  •  I am concerned about your last comment (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    the choice is yours

    "As well, the five nations who were in talks with North Korea (China, Japan, Russia, the U.S. and South Korea) will for once be more or less on the same page "

    China is very uncertain, given its close involvement with North Korea, and Russia is condemning the tests, but whilst doing so today, is being very guarded about the imposition of sanctions.

    North Korea relies on China and South Korea to keep its economy going. There will be a lot of work to bring them into the fold.

    •  See higher (3+ / 0-)

      China called North Korea's actions ``brazen'' after warning Pyongyang in advance not to conduct the test. Plus the test was the day after Abe had visited. China is PISSED, and is going to do something.

      Whether or not that means collective action with the international community or individual action, like cutting fuel supplies or slowing trade across China's border wirth North Korea, isn't clear yet.

      Some academics (seem the Bloomberg story) are saying China's relationship with North Korea is over. Whether that's true or not, its clear that the relationship is badly damaged and China won't be inclined to do North Korea very many favours soon.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:29:17 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't share Bloomberg's view (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        twcollier, sodalis

        I agree that what North Korea has done represents the greatest offence that can be done to Asian sensibilities.

        It gave China ujst twenty minutes notice only that it was about to test a nuclear explosion. As a consequence, China has lost face. It sounds trivial, but it is not.

        Having said that, I still do not believe that China will willing support sanctions. Whilst it is a country that works on a timescale 1000 years ahead, good North Korea relations is an integral part of its scenario for it becoming a superpower in the next twenty years.

        Certainly, the faster the UN convenes, the more easily the US will be able to appeal to the "loss of face" reaction by China but, and it is a big BUT, Rice and Bolton will have their work cut out to bring them alongside.

        Meanwhile, have a look at the Russian statement. Condemnatory, yes. But very cautious about what would be an appropriate response and sanctions are still causing them major concern.

        •  And considering who our "diplomats" are (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          curtadams, sodalis

          it's easy to believe that, even if China is willing to at least entertain the possibility of acting economically against the DPRK, Bolton's bluster will help to persuade them of the opposite course.

          If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. -- George Orwell

          by nilocjin on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:45:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's beyond that (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          gong

          China warned North Korea (after North Korea issued its announcement that it planned a test) not to blow up the bomb, and it did so anyway. There are past indignities, which I've mentioned, and China needs to look to its relationship with Japan, South Korea and the U.S. -- all now more important. Given a choice of those countries or North Korea...it's going to at least move away from Pyongyang.

          As for North Korea being part of China's plans for its rise -- explain, how, exactly that's going to work. And relying on the argument that China plans 1,000 years ahead -- that smacks of mystical malarkey and it and $1.50 will get you a cup of coffee.

          Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

          by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:46:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  If China was pissed it (0+ / 0-)

        was probably because they recognize that this gives the US an excuse to ramp up nuclear weapons development and testing.

        How do you tell a predator from a protector? The predator will eat you sooner rather than later.

        by hannah on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 05:33:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Nope, it can be laid squarely at the US's feet (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Welshman, fugue, churchlady, John Boy

    All Bush had to do was hold direct talks with North Korea to allow them to save face and beg for some food in private and the whole mess could ahve been contained.

    There will be wider fallout (pun unintended), but if China cuts off fuel to North Korea, they'll probably negotiate with Iran.

    And that is one set of trade negotiations we do not want to happen because all North Korea has to offer are weapons.

    Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities.

    - Albert Einstein

    by Walt starr on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:35:35 AM PDT

    •  Kim's desire to get nuclear weapons (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      twcollier

      Can't be blamed solely on Bush. Kim tried before and Clinton managed to buy North Korea off in a way that made it difficult for him to cheat or insist on an additional bribe. And North Korea wants to be more independent of China and to threathen Japan, which it sees as Korea's traditional enemy.

      But, yes, the Bush administration is largely responsible for the test being conducted at this way at this time.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:41:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That's like saying (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      gracchus

      a man walking down a dark alley counting hundred dollar bills is at fault for being mugged; sure, what he did was stupid, but the mugging was the mugger's fault. IMO , both the hardliners in Pyongyang and D.C. have gotten into this mess, but Pyongyang more directly. The blame goes more to "hardliners" in general.

      I would say the U.S. sees North Korea as evil but not insane or crazy. Jong's rhetoric is crazier than Ahmadinejhad's, but NK has not initiated significant military actions since 1953; and it his not engaged in terrorism since 1987. The regime is not clinically insane. It does have calculation to its behavior.

      NK is China's little dog. Frankly, I don't see why, as the Cold War is freaking over and a united Korea poses no threat to China, esp. as the U.S. would have no reason to keep troops on the peninsula. But suspending fuel deliveries might just result in a massive famine without regime collapse. And if the regime did collapse, it wouldn't necessarily be as 'clean' as 1991. A messy process, in addition to the fantastic mess it would create in the region, would be very dangerous, as control of nuclear technologies and possibily the weapons themselves might fall into irresponsible hands. That would be by far the worst outcome for everyone.

      "I'm not here for the Iraqis, I'm here for George Bush." - Iraq occupation staffer

      by Beet on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:56:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  South Korea (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Beet, fugue, Mishima

        doesn't want North Korea to collapse, nor to sensible American diplomats, for just those very reasons (please also see my "matter of degree" post on this thread). Unfortunately, US foreign policy is being run by paranoid maniacs. Yikes.

        Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

        by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 04:01:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Despite what you write, (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Welshman

    China likely WON'T aid the collapse or weakening of the Kim regime in North Korea for reasons you did not mention, and it has nothing to do with ideological or historical closeness of the two countries -- much more simply it's the geographical closeness; if North Korea goes into civilian meltdown, the LONG border they share with China will be flooded with immigrants China doesn't want, and can't handle. In this respect NK has been holding a type of Damacles sword over China's head for decades: prop us up, or we'll become your poorest province and cost you even MORE money.

    Simple economics, not altruism, history or ideology.

    --------
    Please don't bite the heads off the chocolate Elvises.

    by PBJ Diddy on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:39:47 AM PDT

    •  It's a matter of degrees (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Beet, twcollier

      China WILL punish North Korea in some way -- it can't afford not to. It won't make North Korea collapse -- I hope my article doesn't read as if China planned to do that -- so it will calibrate the punishment very carefully.

      Actually, South Korea isn't keen on a North Korean collapse either -- it will get even more economic refugees than China will and it's not nearly so big a place and the total size of its economy is smaller. (bigger per capita, of course.)

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:43:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, but calibrating degrees is difficult (0+ / 0-)

        When dealing with the complicated and unstable North Korean state and society.
            I agree that this seems to have gotten China's attention in a way that suggests that they take this very seriously.  South Korea remains in something like a bearhug with their difficult twin brother to the north.  I just hope that Japan doesn't overreact and start on a long-term rearmament path.

    •  I agree, PBJ (0+ / 0-)

      In this respect, China's relationship with North Korea is a bit like that between the U.S. and Cuba -- or, since that one also has a huge overlay of anti-Castro and anti-Communist politics, like that between the U.S. and Haiti.  China wants to avoid a tsunami of destitute immigrants from North Korea, which it reasonably fears if the Kim regime simply collapses suddenly.

  •  Gracchus (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    twcollier, churchlady, kurt

    I have cross posted above my diary from ePluribus Media on the subject.

    One of the problems with seeing Russia and China coming alongside the US is the lack of credibility that Bush and his administration now has in world affairs.

    My diary attempts to show how Bush has managed to dissipate the strength and influence of the United States as the world's supreme power - an extraordinary non-achievement in the space of just six years.

    Now even Japan may be tempted to look to development of its own military strength because of a lack of confidence in the US being able to influence developments. Such is the real outcome of the Neocon's New World Order.

    •  True, Bush may not be able to make hay (0+ / 0-)

      out of this, as a competent U.S. administration should, which in this case would be drawing China into collective action against North Korea.

      That said, I think that you're underplaying China's likely reaction to North Korea's test, which wasn't the act of an ally under the circumstances. China WILL retaliate in some fashion -- covert or open -- at some point.

      Remember that China support North Vietnam during its war with the U.S., and then was fighting a war against Vietnam in less than a decade -- and Vietnam is bigger, more populous and arguably at least as strategicly important to China than North Korea is.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 03:59:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I have no argument with (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Welshman, twcollier

      your assessment of Bush's impact on U.S. foreign policy and world influence, though. If China agrees to collective action, it will be in spite of the U.S., not because of American action. I just think that China may grin and bear it; or it may just act alone.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 04:03:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Well said, Welshman (0+ / 0-)

      The most significant of the many failures of the Bush administration has been the willful squandering of the international goodwill and respect for U.S. leadership.  This was an invaluable national asset that was much less durable and more useful than the conservatives and the neocons understood.  Now largely gone, I'm afraid that it will be difficult ever to replace.

  •  Open Skepticism (0+ / 0-)

    I don't think they had a nuke.  And on the front page of MSNBC right now, I see this:

    South Korea's seismic monitoring center said a magnitude 3.6 tremor felt at the time of alleged North Korea nuclear test wasn't a natural occurrence.

    The size of the tremor could indicate an explosive equivalent to 550 tons of TNT, said Park Chang-soo, spokesman at the Korea Institute of Geoscience and Mineral Resources — which would be far smaller than the nuclear bombs the United States dropped on Japan in World War II.

    It's a MacGuffin.  From my understanding of nuclear physics, you've got to have a minimum payload to even reach critical mass.  And that minimum payload was approximately what we dropped on Japan.

    That said, I have to wonder how much this is going to effect what's going on.  I think Dems should be quick to point out that Bush has been playing Pattycake with this asshole for 6 years and getting rapidly nowhere.  His foreign policy in regards to Lil' Kim is demonstrably a failure, and this is the result.  Real or not, Kim wants people to think he's a badass and will go to any lengths to prove it.

    "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

    by slippytoad on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 04:32:53 AM PDT

    •  Interesting Question (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      kurt

      I don't know that you can correlate the seismic level that well with the size of the explosion without a detailed understanding of the geological structure in which the explosion occured.

      On the other side, assuming you are right about the size of the explosion, sub mega ton nuclear explosions are indeed possible.  It could be intentional as in a very well designed bomb or a fizzle as in a badly designed one.

      Do the right thing 'cause it feels better.

      by John Boy on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 05:00:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Another tidbit I heard on the radio (0+ / 0-)

        This morning on NPR the statement was made that there were "no radioactive leaks" from the test.  I laughed out loud.  Of ocurse, if it weren't no damn nuke, there would be no radioactivity.

        I guess it remains to be seen whether this can be deemed as real or not.  My understanding of the physics of underground nukes is clearly not all that . . . or I'd be making a lot of money working for the military, I guess.

        "There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter

        by slippytoad on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 06:08:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  could be (0+ / 0-)

      why go through all the expense of all the development and a test when you can get the same political effect by just announcing that you'd made a test? works about the same, and it's hard to produce a negative. that said, KCNA really did announce the test, so if anyone's faking, it's the north koreans.

      Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho.

      by gracchus on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 09:46:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Axis of Evil vs. the Great Satan (0+ / 0-)

    Trying to view the world situation as independent out side observer, I would think they view it as battle between the so called “Axis of Evil” and the so called “Great Satan”.  The so called “Axis of Evil” are a group of countries and peoples who feel that majority world opinion is wrong and are pissed about being pushed around by what they see as the “Great Satan”.  The see the US as dominated by equally belligerent thugs doing precisely what the “Axis” is saying.  In saner times, they would have sided with us in that we were a country of restraint, by and large.

    Thus Bush has a very difficult problem on the world stage.  He needs to be firm but restrained.

    At home, the situation is even worse.  The neocons will no doubt beat their chests and demand yet third front (fourth?) in the war on terror.  And it will play well with the GOP base. And this is probably on of the reasons Kim did his test at this time – to promote Bush and the GOP because they see him as the great fool that he is.  The Democrats on the other hand must follow the reasoned world view – firm but restrained.  So, Bush needs the Democrats to argue for restraint so he can be more belligerent than the opposition party (playing to his base) yet restrained by the Democrats (playing to the world view).

    So Bush and the GOP are pleased with this turn of events.  And I suspect the GOP and Kim hope this sweeps the Foley scandal off the front pages.

    How this will play out politically here in America is not clear.  Yes this is another failure for Bush policies.  But it is also more fear, the bread and butter of the neocons.

    Do the right thing 'cause it feels better.

    by John Boy on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 04:51:54 AM PDT

  •  I think(hope?) that this is one more (0+ / 0-)

    step towards reunification.

    As the US (rightly) starts to pull back from S. Korea, then relations with China will warm.

    This could (again I hope) lead to some form of reunification.

    I believe that it is only the very top echelon of N. Korea leadership that still think going it alone is the right path.

    With China as broker (NOT THE US), then some form of reconciliation and even reunification is possible.

    That, IMO, may be the silver lining in N. Korea saber rattling.  It may just be positioning for splitting the spoils of any joining.

    -6.5, -7.59. Dump Harry Reid. Put in someone who can rid us of Holy Joe Lieberman.

    by DrWolfy on Mon Oct 09, 2006 at 06:24:38 AM PDT

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