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Now that our victory is firmly established and we've gotten the appropriate gloating out of the way, the celebrations are subsiding and the fizz is disappearing from the champagne.

The time now comes to realize the work that lies before us, and to establish our attitude for the coming two years of MAJORITY in the House and Senate.

And that, my friends, brings good news and bad news.  Yes, I can give you platitudes about how our battle is far from over; how we must hold our party's feet to the fire; how the GOP machine is anything but beaten; how Rove's deck is still stacked heavily against us; how K-Street continues to ruin our lives.

But that's not what I'm here to do today.  Those things are obvious.

No, today I call for calm.  I call for patience.

Above all, I call for those who will be frustrated after vainly expecting swift recriminations against the Bush Regime and massive public policy shifts to watch contentedly as we shift the Overton Window OUR way, slowly but surely.

In case you don't remember what the Overton Window is, allow me to quote a major chunk (if you've already read it, feel free to skip!) from my popular post on the subject, derived from Josh Trevino's great post at Swords Crossed [N.B.: the Kos archives are still down; the entire piece may also be found on my blog here]:

the GOP knows that the middle DOES matter.  They know that by playing to their base in very well-crafted ways, they can shift the very definition of what the middle is. By introducing radicalism into the public discourse (and taking initial heat for it), whatever used to be radical within this context becomes moderate by comparison....<snip>

To quote Trevino:
"The mission of a think tank is to introduce ideas into public discourse and normalize them within the public discourse. The steps an idea takes to full legitimacy are roughly as follows:







One useful tool is the Overton window. Named after the former vice president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy who developed the model, it's a means of visualizing where to go, and how to assess progress."

What the GOP does is systematically look at how each possible policy position is viewed by the American electorate, and deliberately attempt to shift positions from the "Unthinkable" or "Radical" categories to the "Sensible", "Popular" and "Policy" categories, by any means necessary.  And they're willing to take decades of propaganda to get it done. Josh then lists an example of how the GOP has done this with regard to homeschooling, vouchers, and public education.  To continue:

Do you see how this works?  Systematically, piece by piece, the GOP takes what had been considered impossibly radical positions and makes them worthy of consideration just by talking about them--and then makes what had been considered outside possibilities truly possible.  Now, I happen to believe that legalization of homeschooling is a good thing (though there should be oversight)--others may disagree.
But the important thing to remember is that the Republicans are carrying out this same exercise with every public policy debate today--from invading Iran to making birth control illegal to eliminating Social Security.  The once unthinkable becomes possible--and they don't care if they take some heat for it initially.
To finish:
Step by step, ideas that were once radical or unthinkable -- homeschooling, tuition tax credits, and vouchers -- have moved into normal public discourse. Homeschooling is popular, tuition tax credits are sensible, and vouchers are acceptable. (On the latter, they've been soundly defeated in Michigan of late, but the point is that they are a part of normal public and political discourse.) The de facto illegality of homeschooling, by contrast, has gone the way of the dodo. The conscious decision to shift the Overton window is yielding its results.
So there's your tip from the VRWC for the day. It's a methodology that could work for the left as easily as the right, although I'm not aware of a single left-wing think tank (and they are few) that operates so systemically. If you're of an analytic bent, and want to figure out where a legislative or policy strategy is heading, try constructing the scale of possibilities and the Overton window for the subject at hand. Change can happen by accident, true: but it is just as often the product of deliberation and intent, and it does all of us well to understand the mechanisms by which it occurs.
Amen, Josh, and thank you.  This is something that the Democrats still do not understand.  You win policy debates by crafting arguments for extreme positions--and then shifting the entire window of debate.  You do not win by trying to figure out which position is most popular among Americans right now.
When Concerned Women for America does its thing, that's exactly what they're doing.  They're taking some heat today, in preparation for tomorrow's very real policy battle.  They're priming the public to even talk about the idea of eliminating birth control.  And far from turning off moderate voters, they're going to sway them.  They're going to WIN moderate voters by playing to their base.  But playing to it with careful calculation.


And this stands in stark contrast to the Democrats: When the rightwing attacked the Democrats for promoting "Hillarycare", and the Democrats started to take some heat, we just slinked back into a corner and didn't raise the issue again.  To this day, we are afraid to talk about single-payer health coverage, for fear of offending the middle.
Meanwhile, the progressives among us insist that our leaders simply come out swinging in favor single-payer health coverage to rally our base--without priming the moderate voter for the idea in advance.
Both strategies will fail miserably.


Democrats and Progressives think that winning elections comes down to one of two alternatives: a) taking a principled stand of leadership; or b) listening to focus groups.
The truth is that we need to do both. It is not an either-or scenario.  We cannot achieve victory by playing to the base and ignoring the middle, nor can we win by playing to the middle and ignoring the base.  We need to do both--and the GOP understands this.
Remember that Frank Luntz is the master of the focus group--and that there's many an election they would have lost without him.
To win, we must take principled stands of leadership--using phrases and frames that are calculated to shift the Overton Window to our side.
To win, we must sway the middle by playing to the base--and we must understand that this is a difficult and heavily calculated process that requires time, money and manpower.

Understand very clearly how this works.  For the last 12 years, the GOP has been pretending to be moderate, while its rabid dogs like Ann Coulter push the discourse further and further right.  The Party looks good, the base is kept happy even though it doesn't get everything it wants, and the very definition of moderate changes.  Meanwhile, of course, the political temperature of the water starts to slowly boil the average American froggie, who is taken unawares.

Now, obviously, we do not want to repeat Republican tactics step by step.  We don't want to drive this truck as far left as the GOP has driven it to the right.  To do so would engender a Democratic defeat as decisive as the drubbing we have given the GOP this year.  However, this country's discourse now stands SO far to the right that the people are ready for a change, and a major correction is now long past due.

But that correction will take TIME.  It will take MONEY.  It will take MANPOWER.  But above all, it will take significant effort from all of US--even more effort than we get from our Leadership.

The American people are not looking for major shifts leftward in public policy right now because they have NOT been PRIMED for them.  The Overton Windows are still shifted dangerously far to the right, in Fox News territory.  To make major shifts right now would be political suicide.  Remember that the Republicans did not attempt to destroy habeas corpus and the EPA in 1980; they waited until 2006, when the public had been appropriately primed by their think tanks.  Our wait will not be so long--but a wait it will be.

The American people are not looking for recriminations against the Bush criminal regime right now, much as we may devoutly wish for them.  Given fresh crimes uncovered and borne of subpoenas over a year from now, we might get them.  But not now.  We might even have to wait until they leave office.  But please keep ultimate victory in mind: more important than seeing them locked up in the brig or even removing them from power prematurely is discrediting forever their corrupt and mendacious ideology.  And that will take time.

And time is on our side.  The Republican disaster of governance will not stop now; it will redound over the next two years.  Iraq is still a mess.  The economy is still a house of cards.  Our education system is still a disaster.  We're still the laughing-stock and object of scorn in the world.  The people will remain as angry at Republicans now as they were at Democrats during the 80's and 90's.  And we will use that to our advantage if we are PATIENT and give it some TIME.


So do not be disappointed in Pelosi's House and Reid's Senate.  Hold their feet to the fire and don't allow them to triangulate, of course; but be PATIENT.

Remember that, in the overall scheme of things, it is THEIR job to be "moderate" and push no-brainer policies that the American people will approve of: raising the minimum wage, doing something coherent about immigration, giving tuition tax credits to the middle class, funding stem cell research, etc.

And it is OUR job to push the envelope for more progressive policies and shift the very terms of debate in the country--but without stabbing our own guys in the back.  We're the vanguard, and they're the rearguard--intentionally.  That's how it works.

So take heart--and do not be overly disappointed in our Leadership.  The job of MOVING that Overton Window is up to US.  The job of the Leadership is to make sure that they stand squarely in the CENTER of that Window by turning the "Popular" and the "Sensible" into "Policy", as we shift it left by turning the "Radical" and "Unthinkable" into the "Acceptable" and the "Sensible."

The HARD work falls to us to do what we must.  As does the need for us to be PATIENT as the Leadership does what THEY must.

Together, we can shift this thing back to the Left--where it belongs.  

[Cross-posted from My Left Wing]

Originally posted to thereisnospoon (David Atkins) on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:00 PM PST.

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  •  tips (307+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Serephin, Sharoney, beedee, Deep Dark, Devilstower, racerx, Ed in Montana, Davinci, rick, chrississippi, tmo, Maccabee, RF, pb, Chance the gardener, miriam, jab, Cowalker, Upper West, tankej, musing graze, vivacia, ferg, SarahLee, alyosha, sheba, AlanF, Ashami, folgers, Geenius at Wrok, asimbagirl, Nina Katarina, alisonk, pq, RunawayRose, thesill, Lahdee, Robespierrette, Emerson, littlesky, Coldblue Steele, Debby, KumarP, Shockwave, scorponic, tacet, maddercow, Jim W, shayera, LynnS, GayHillbilly, John Campanelli, frisco, marjo, theran, zeroooo, mataliandy, RepubAnon, exNYinTX, bostonjay, Birdman, sardonyx, jennylou, TrollKing, km4, tlh lib, Song Jiang, concernedamerican, ReneInOregon, bronte17, KB, 88kathy, mentaldebris, OCD, nolajazz, srkp23, Morague, highacidity, poemless, peacemom, CalNM, BPK, Benjaminwise, Bensdad, mxwing, tmmike, boilerman10, high5, roses, Dana in MN, peeder, sjb8888, mississippi scott, sagra, MJB, dchill, Rona, fumie, ctsteve, Jesterfox, bewert, CoConut, Alohaleezy, wader, Janet Strange, pexio, hhex65, AlphaGeek, normal family, Getreal1246, athenap, mwk, DeadB0y, businessdem, Eddie in ME, pat bunny, casperr, dadafountain, SeattleLiberal, Nina, besieged by bush, synth, klayman, churchylafemme, GN1927, chantedor, lizah, snakelass, hazzcon, Tillie630, papercut, Court Jester, horsewithnoname, grrr, Dood Abides, ppluto, walkshills, nswalls, YetiMonk, gmhowell, Audible Nectar, CanYouBeAngryAndStillDream, SanDiegoDem, Steven D, bablhous, DrewDown, eve, rmx2630, Marc in KS, donailin, Gowrie Gal, sxwarren, rapala, mrmango, tovan, marina, olpotosi, Mr Bula, jrooth, DianeNYS, el dorado gal, Alegre, blueyedace2, baccaruda, Ja of Anoroc, Tamifah, Halcyon, potter, PBen, darwinsjoke, ejmw, Alien Abductee, mike101, JohnB47, ex99125b, station wagon, karpinsky, Cmyst, kaye, Brooke In Seattle, Lepanto, devadatta, reflectionsv37, ofao, homeland observer, marathon, MrAudioGuy, teknofyl, Mr X, EconAtheist, Will Easton, jimreyn, thered1, GreyHawk, lmariefrombama, annefrank, SheriffBart, gkn, granal, Warren Terrer, deep, Geekesque, kcarr, wiscmass, FindingMyVoice, sbdenmon, gpm, LithiumCola, bartman, vibinc, JanL, Finn Arbor, Erevann, jay23, SSMir, berko, Prof Dave, motherlowman, cre8fire, occams hatchet, kovie, Progressive Liberaltarian, dus7, esquimaux, Major Danby, BalanceSeeker, Nightprowlkitty, iheartbooks, tommymet, Keone Michaels, PatsBard, Fasaha, SFJen, RogueStage, cwaltz, Still Thinking, 4thepeople, Gorette, Robert Davies, Yellow Canary, Truza, InsultComicDog, buhdydharma, meliorist, bluebrain, dangangry, tbetz, luckydog, sailmaker, kck, merrinc, vome minnesota, Chairman Bob, looty, FireCrow, old possum, NearlyNormal, plf515, armadillo, Potus2020, doinaheckuvanutjob, bonesy, ilyana, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, va dare, means are the ends, kurt, Georgia sailor, crystal eyes, lev36, kml, AntKat, ignatz uk, Iowa Boy, ibonewits, dotsright, donnamarie, Cronesense, Bob Guyer, blue armadillo, california keefer, WryCynic, Dartagnan, bluetownship, offgrid, suburi, dallasdave, yoduuuh do or do not, karmsy, CTMET, left coast lad, flumptytail, SJLeonidas, lurks a lot, ilex, Tenn Wisc Dem, Flirtin with Disaster, BlueInKansas, Freadom, Immigrant Punk, keechi, Steffo, Brass Tacks, Got a Grip, KJC MD, Lexington Jack, CroneWit

    for victory.  Again.  And again.  And again.

  •  We have to think long-term (18+ / 0-)

    not short-term

    I'm kind of stalling for time here...They told me what to say. George W Bush, 03-21-2006 10:00 EST Press Conference

    by Tamifah on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:00:49 PM PST

  •  Interesting points (8+ / 0-)

    We need to set up a bunch of think tanks to introduce the liberal concepts to push the center our way, even if we never implement all of their ideas.

    Good intro to the new paradigm:  Democratic majority control of Congress with a lame duck, ineffective Republican (ex-Unitary) President.

    9/11 didn't change the Constitution!

    by Prof Dave on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:01:12 PM PST

  •  Do we have the think tank infrastructure to (3+ / 0-)

    do this ?

    Strength and wisdom are not opposing values

    by CTMET on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:01:45 PM PST

  •  I waited patiently for victory, (12+ / 0-)

    I can be patient for things to happen. My happiness can be prolonged.

  •  Awesome fucking diary, nospoon! (10+ / 0-)

    Can we make it assigned reading for all progressive "purists" at dKos?

    Recommended!! (even though I still don't see that the Reco list is back up)

  •  One step at a time forward (9+ / 0-)

    and no steps backward.

    Great diary.

    the next voice you hear will be your own - Jackson Browne

    by Coldblue Steele on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:07:38 PM PST

  •  Don't Know How Much Good it Does to Rec Now (4+ / 0-)

    But you, nospoon, still get a rec. This diary is excellent and the ideas contained therein bear repeating.


    •  Pelosi says the Dems won't put it out there. So, (14+ / 0-)

      that leaves two options:

      1. We, the People, in an extension of the 50 state strategy (see KagroX's excellent series)
      1. We somehow get the Republicans to believe that, in light of the investigations (and the ongoing indictments of their rank and file remaining Congresscritters), impeaching the majority of the Bush Administration and stating that it is for the good of the nation is their best option.  

      ...that's right, I said it -- get the Republicans to call for impeachment. And make sure that they don't just let the buck stop at George -- he's the scapegoat.  He's "their pet goat" boy, and we want to get the criminals too.

      If either situation (or, miracle of miracles, BOTH) manifest, Pelosi won't refuse to impeach.  She's just promised not to bring it up, and to work with the Republicans in the spirit of bipartisanship.

      (Evil, aren't I? Heh heh heh...)

      Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
        Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
      Tempest even in reason's seat.

      by GreyHawk on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:21:56 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bad idea.. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueDem, jennylou

      Even though he deserves it, this country healing from the past twelve years is so much more important than getting rid of him.  We don't want to continue some precedent of impeachment.  The window isn't moving anywhere on this one, and we would only have two years to do it anyway.  Let's just be forceful and confident.   Americans are ready for us.  Our ideals will win on their merit.  After the last twelve nightmarish years of the most disgusting political machinations ever conceived, I'm ready for some consensus on the things that matter and a total turn away from anything shrill, which means we'll have to be the adults and turn the other cheek to some extent.  I sincerely hope I won't be seeing a focus on impeachment here on dkos.  There are so many things worth spending capital on than one lame duck asshole.      

      Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

      by MatthewBrown on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 11:47:05 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A precedent has been set that can't be allowed to (5+ / 0-)


        Bush set the precedent for bad behaviors: illegal warfare, war crimes, torture, suspension of various Constitutional rights, unitary executive, signing statements, election dirty tricks, and much more.

        Without some consequences such as impeachment, censure, jailing, etc. than future (Rethug) Presidents will do even more damage. They will rightly conclude that Bush wasn't enough of a strongman to get the job done, and all it takes is to be even more brutal.

        We can't allow that to stand. But we must investigate and proceed in a manner according to the rule of law.

        There is no way you will get consensus on this matter, without addressing this issue fully. And to say we can win in 2000 doesn't address it.

        •  impeachment is political suicide (0+ / 0-)

          and bad for the country.  Any future asshole can try and succeed at doing the same thing again, regadless of any impeachment in the past.  it's a simple and rosy view of the world to think otherwise.  The reason Bush got away with so much, is because the Repubs controlled everything.  Impeachment will guarantee that.   We don't need vengence.  it's redundant now.  It's plain for everyone to see that the emperor has no clothes.  

          Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

          by MatthewBrown on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:21:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, must disagree (3+ / 0-)

        You do not give a free pass to a lying, thieving, murderer of thousands as long as pot smokers are still being given excessive years-long sentences.

        We don't have to be shrill--Bush's crimes are shrill enough in themselves as to scream for justice by the American people.

  •  Remember: we had the senate for TWO YEARS! (13+ / 0-)

    We dont' have time to be patient.  We really, really don't. Too much bad water on the bridge.  I mean... Military Commissions Act??  Donut Hole?  The corruption.

    Oh yeah... I want the first act to be that of impeachment proceedings.  Okay, that would be being impatient to expect that.  But, remember, we had the fucking senate when the patriot act was passed (unread and undebated). We had the fucking sentate when the iraq resolution passed.  We had the fucking senate when MANY CRIMES were committed.  We had the fucking senate when the first budget or two were passed.

    So, we are between a rock and a hard place, my friends.

    Honestly, the congress should take an unprecedented move toward ETHICS investigations.  Remember the pukes reading the dems' correspondence?  Let's just start there.

    This landslide was against CORRUPTION. So, let's give the people what they want.  CLEAN UP CONGRESS.  And dollars to donuts, it will lead to rove and cheney.  Let the chips fall where they may.

    What I worry about.... is if we are "patient" as you say...we will get the same milquetoast neoliberal bs that we had from 2000 to 2002.  We cannot allow that.

    We need change. RADICAL change.  Irrespective of 'theories'.


    Googlebomb WA-08 - Dave Reichert

    by letsfight on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:15:41 PM PST

    •  See my comment, above. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Got a Grip


      Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
        Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
      Tempest even in reason's seat.

      by GreyHawk on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:22:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Patient about some things, aggressive elsewhere (11+ / 0-)

      The American public already hates the Military Commissions Act.  Repeal it TODAY and we are already on our way to pushing the window.

      thereisnospoon is talking about pushing the window left until sensible ideas like repealing the anti-union laws dating to the 1920s, allowing gay marriage, passing the equal rights amendment, proportional representation, abolishing the Electoral College, etc., are mainstream and can be passed.

      Torture and imprisonment without trial are already out of the mainstream, and step ONE is to push back hard on that end of the window.

      -5.63, -8.10 | Libertarian Liberal

      by neroden on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:23:43 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Especially that union thing (0+ / 0-)
        Our Overton window work has got to be that in today's world, only the fools try to go it completely alone.  Companies routinely merge and ally in order to acheive their goals.  The pinnacles of individual acheivement, the CEOs, band together to set each other's salaries all the time.  Insider trading and taking care of friends is so natural that a myriad of laws have to be written and oversight undertaken to keep it from happening.

        The other end of the window might be if we really want to go libertarian, then we should push for the abolition of limited liability.  Companies will not grow beyond the size of a few dozen if the owners are responsible for everyone's actions.  However, I don't necessarily see that as a good thing - there are projects that require a huge number of people working together, and we would be greatly diminished without an organization that could acheive these large projects.

      •  oooooooooooooo (0+ / 0-)

        imagine bush NOT signing or vetoeing that (and other legislation).....

        Lovely thought.

        Googlebomb WA-08 - Dave Reichert

        by letsfight on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:40:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The American Public has NO IDEA... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        ...what the Military Commissions Act is, how it relates to the Hamdan decision, or how it could affect the rights of every day Americans and not terrorists. Poll 100 (who are not in law school at Georgetown University) and you will have 99% unfamiliarity with this. So, no, keep it MUCH simpler than this.

        "I am my brother's keeper. I am a Democrat." -- That's your slogan, Democrats.

        by Bensdad on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 09:10:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's part of our job... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sbdenmon, donnamarie

          it is up to us, to a great extent, to educate everyone around us on these things.  Therefore, it is imparative to educate ourselves fully.  Right now I'd say that there are a 1/3 of the people in this country who are convinced that it's a good idea, 1/3 who don't really know what it is, with about half of this group knowing it worries them for some reason without knowing exactly why, and the rest are like us.  We have to educate them in order to change their minds.

    •  oh, we'll do that for sure (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      letsfight, GreyHawk

      but don't expect TOO much.

      •  I may be worrying about nothing.... (0+ / 0-)

        but I really DO envision the dem controlled congress doing something like MAINTAINING the agreement to NOT have any ethics investigations.

        I hope pelosi and reid surpise me... but lordy.

        Googlebomb WA-08 - Dave Reichert

        by letsfight on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:42:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agree (0+ / 0-)

      And when the light of truth shines on all the crime and corruption, I believe it will open up even greater opportunities for progressive leaders to arise and facilitate progressive policy.  This HAS to be  a priority.

      ...and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.

      by rlharry on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:56:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  But now we also have the HOUSE! (0+ / 0-)

      and with a good majority; the house is a muscular organ when it comes to pressing the Majority's agenda. We will be able to do a heck of a lot more come January than we were able to with only the Jeffords Majority senate of '01-'02, and I think we will. These are exciting, optimistic times.

    •  We are the frame (0+ / 0-)

      The leaders are framed in it. When we move the frame, they'll move -  if they want to remain in the picture-  and some of the followers will come along for the ride. (ouch, that metaphor's so mixed it could be a smoothie)

      We need a solid understanding of the histogram for each issue that describes the population on each point on the scale from unthinkable to policy. If we track it thoroughly and shift the frame strategically, we can bring about a sea change.

      Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

      by mataliandy on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 09:58:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Apples and Oranges my friend... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      The climate then and now are light years apart.  It's palpable to me, at least, what people don't want.  They don't want hyperpartisanship.  Can we please, please just pass some legislation that really helps American families?  Can we please, please let our new two chamber majority convene before we start frothing and talking about "milqutoast neoliberals"?  If we choose to focus on ALL the common sense issues like lower drug costs and higher wages that all Americans want, this majority will last.  Why is that so bad?  If you want to jump into the deep end of terrorism and social issues and start lobbing rhetorical hand grenades from the get go, we're doomed.  We

      Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

      by MatthewBrown on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 11:57:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  What DO WE Want? (13+ / 0-)



    What do we want?

    When do we want it?

    (stolen from an Al Franken bit.)

  •  Nicely done, and good point. (5+ / 0-)

    Long term planning and details are essential - they must be done, planned and accounted for.  Just getting the "gist" of a thing and working perpetually in the "now" or in the "30,000 foot" view prevents the identification and eradication of critical cracks in any foundation.

    We need to set a foundation and build on it with an eye toward the long term, then set the goals and strategies to achieve as we shorten the view -- not the other way around.  That's why so many projects fail.  

    That's why so many dreams die.

    Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
      Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
    Tempest even in reason's seat.

    by GreyHawk on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:17:06 PM PST

  •  Excellent! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, Joelarama, Got a Grip

    Excellent, sagacious, timely and wise, Spoon!  THANK YOU for giving me the model of the Oveton WIndow (and links to learn more).  You have named a process that I've seen the GOP usng since Bush I's time.

  •  Can't we all just calculate? (0+ / 0-)

    To win, we must take principled stands of leadership--using phrases and frames that are calculated to shift the Overton Window to our side.

    We often feel we're smart enough to phrase things our own way. Or many here feel that the truth needs no "spin" (spin being used to denote anything to do with thinking about how to say something) and usually refuse to cooperate on something like this.

    We may have to develop our mindset a little.

    -- We are just regular people informed on issues

    by mike101 on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:22:30 PM PST

    •  But, "If you don't mind, it won't matter" worked. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yoduuuh do or do not

      It helped the Republicans for 12 years -- they didn't mind the store, and it didn't matter 'cuz nobody was ratting 'em out...

      Never, never brave me, nor my fury tempt:
        Downy wings, but wroth they beat;
      Tempest even in reason's seat.

      by GreyHawk on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:24:22 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Framing vs Spin (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KB, sbdenmon

      Spin is spraying perfume on a skunk - it's always used to cover up something unpleasant.

      Framing is a great photo in which you immediately grasp an important concept (a crying soldier, a child in a wheelchair looking up at a long staircase) - it's using language effectively.

      People use framing to make spin more effective, but framing can be used for positive purposes. Spin cannot.

      Our brains use a sort of mental shorthand to learn new info. For example: if I say "he turned the other cheek" when talking about a fight, you suddenly understand more about the situation than I could state in two sentences. I don't need to  actually say those two sentences any more. You have a whole set of impressions, images, and responses already built into your understanding of the world that I can evoke with those 5 words.

      Framing takes advantage of that shorthand mechanism. It's one of many tools we need to learn to use effectively.

      If I say elephant, you'd likely never think of a chipmunk.  If I say, "The President turned his back on the people of New Orleans" you would not think he'd just flown in to haul sandbags.

      An easy way to get your mind into framing mode is to wrap everything in sense metaphors - metaphors involving things you could: see (back turning, sunrise), smell (rotten fish, a breath of fresh air), or hear (fingernails on a blackboard comes to mind for some reason).

      In this dawn of a new day, it's time to open up the (Overton) window, take a deep breath fresh air, take joy in the soft scent of victory, roll up our sleeves, and get to work, using all the tools in the toolbox of democracy - including framing.

      Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

      by mataliandy on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 10:23:09 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  on the other hand (10+ / 0-)

    letsfight has a point.

    There are a couple of things we can do now.

    Ethics reform.  Speaker Pelosi (heh - doesn't that sound sweet) already has that on her list.

    Election reform.  Effort was made after 2000, but every election since has been fraught with machines breaking down, people standing in lines in the rain, etc.  Even if it's Republicans standing in line in the rain, that's not right.

    Minimum wage.  No doubt at all that should be done, and people in seven or eight states voted for it last night.

    So some we can do now, some will take an Overton window.  

    If you got a warrant, I guess you're gonna come in

    by mississippi scott on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:23:00 PM PST

  •  Repealing fascism is not a major leftward shift. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    vivacia, GreyHawk, gimbo

    Please edit your diary to make this clear.

    Restoration of habeas corpus, stopping torture, closing Gitmo: these things are on the things-to-do-first list.

    You're talking about major leftward policy shifts, like, say, nationwide gay marriage.  You're not talking about the "restore the basic consensus we had before 2000" stuff.  Pushing back on that stuff IS our elected officials' jobs, and is not overreaching.

    I assume that's your view, right?

    -5.63, -8.10 | Libertarian Liberal

    by neroden on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:33:16 PM PST

    •  yes, to a point (9+ / 0-)

      but honestly, crazy as it sounds, I would put the minimum wage and Halliburton investigations above restoring habeas corpus.

      The reason that the GOP did those things, in part, was to put the Dems on record making uncomfortable votes to "protect the terrorists."

      It's time, for a change, to put the Repubs on record making uncomfortable votes to soak the middle class and the poor.

      •  We need to control the framing.... (14+ / 0-)

        Force Republicans to make uncomfortable votes to lock up and torture innocent people.

        Actually, it might be worth phrasing the repeal very simply:  "Every person in US custody shall have the right for an impartial judge to review the evidence against him, and if it shows that he is innocent, he shall be released after not more than 30 days."

        Make them vote for imprisoning innocent people.

        -5.63, -8.10 | Libertarian Liberal

        by neroden on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:53:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Right now, (4+ / 0-)

        anything we do to roll back Bush "accomplishments" will seem like vengeance, whether it is or isn't is irrelevant.  But if we gain trust with Pelosi's 100 hour plan, and more after that, say with hearings that disclose exactly what was going on with developing energy policy, then will be the time to bring human rights back. Not because they aren't important, but because it will work.

        •  precisely (0+ / 0-)


        •  Anything the PARTY does MAY seem so (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          But, there are a couple of possibilities:

          1. It can be argued that the current landslide means the PUBLIC wants the radical agenda curtailed and failing to do so will just get them pissed at the Democrats
          1. If 1 is not the case, WE the rabble are NOT the party (ok, technically I am on the state level, but most here are not). We can push the discussion in the public forum toward rolling back the radical agenda, and let the public come to the point where 1 is true.

          Democracy is an audience participation event. We bought our tickets to get in the door on Tuesday, and now is the time the audience starts singing.

          Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

          by mataliandy on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 10:48:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Right, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mataliandy, donnamarie

            I don't really think #1 is true yet.  Plus, bread and butter issues always come first (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs).  We, the rabble, absolutely need to be talking about what needs to be done beyond that, human rights, corruption, etc.  I just don't think that some of the ultimatums that are being thrown around here are helpful.  We are rabble, but we need to be smart rabble.  The paradigm in this diary can help us be smart.  We need to know that Pelosi and company are going to condemn us right up to the moment before they do what we want, and have that sort of patience.  It took the Neocons years to get the issues framed the way they wanted them.  Regardless of Tuesday, it's going to take us a while to get them reframed, too.  Because right now, all politicians are bums, and we have to prove that we're different.  The way the newly elected do that is by caring about the middle class and making differences that visibly improve middle class lives.  Then they can work on the other stuff.  Meantime, we till the soil to help change the framing.

    •  You're completely wrong... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      These are the issues which will undoubtedly take time to correct.  It is incredibly politcally tone deaf to think that these are anywhere near universal isssues or values right now.  Wishful thinking and projection.  We need to build trust first.

      Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

      by MatthewBrown on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 12:05:50 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Execution? (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    GreyHawk, sbdenmon, buhdydharma

    What can I do?  What can my liberal/progressive friends and family do?  I understand the concept you've laid out and I'm totally in agreement with how it has been successful, but I'm not quite comprehending its execution.  How does this concept become practical and actionable?

    This seems to be a point of view that the party leaders need to understand and work from, but what about the traditional media that's completely hostile to all things not conservative?  How do we circumvent them?

    "There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who believe there are only two kinds of people, and those who know better." - Tom Robbins

    by beedee on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:33:57 PM PST

  •  Great Diary (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    danz, OpherGopher, Got a Grip

    This is the first post-election moment of clarity I've had all day, and I've been looking.  Thanks.

  •  I disagree about single-payer health care (15+ / 0-)
    I think people are actually pretty well prepared for this.

    Point out the following points, and repeat them over and over:

    (1) It will cost you less.  Really.  Not kidding.  Multiple studies of many different countries including the US have proved this.

    (2) It will even cost the government less.  The government currently gets the most expensive patients while private insurance gets the most profitable patients.  Think about it.  Also, the insurance companies make a mint right now -- profiteers.

    (3) It will give better care to everyone except the superrich.  This is also proven by multiple studies.  Really.  This is because you'll never have to delay going to the doctor because you're worried about insurance coverage.

    (4) You can still get private insurance if you want to.  (You just won't want to.)

    (5) You can still just pay your doctor in cash if you want to.

    (6) Worried about the government refusing coverage for something?  Hey, at least unlike your insurance company, they aren't trying to make a profit by refusing coverage.  You're more likely to get approval.

    (7) You get to pick your doctor, because nearly all doctors will take the national plan.  Unlike with private insurance companies.

    (8) It's just like Medicare, only without those pesky age rules.  (Actually, it should literally be implemented this way: simply remove the age restriction on Medicare eligibility.  No new bureaucracy.)

    (9) Congressmen already get a similar program.

    (10) It will save American businesses a gobload of money and make America a more competitive place for businesses to locate.

    (11) It will save state governments (and county governments in NY) a gobload of money because they won't need to mess around with Medicaid any more.  They can use that money to lower your state taxes!

    (12)  Less bureaucracy.  Medicaid has so many complicated eligibility rules that it has a ridiculous, absurdly high bureacracy cost: that would just go away.  Similarly Medicare's eligibility rules would go away.  So would all the private health plan eligibility rules.  Why? Because every American citizen would be eligible for the same services.  Some services, like flu shots, could simply be provided for free on a walk-in basis, without any paperwork at all needed -- which is simpler and cheaper than what we do now.

    (13) Save money for hospitals.  Currently people with no insurance go to the emergency room at huge expense.  With universal health care, they'd get treated cheaper and quicker before they needed the emergency room.

    (13) Less danger of epidemics.  Currently epidemics are driven by poor people with no insurance who can't afford to get medical care and therefore catch and spread diseases.  This would end because they would all get treated and cured quickly.

    Universal Health Coverage is an idea Americans are ready for.  Start talking about these major points, and in a year or two it will have not just large support, but overwhelming support.  Especially among fiscal conservatives.

    -5.63, -8.10 | Libertarian Liberal

    by neroden on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:50:01 PM PST

    •  Or maybe I don't disagree :-) (6+ / 0-)

      I don't think people are ready for it today, but I suspect they'll be ready very, very soon.  The continuing catastrophic collapse of the US health care system under Bush has made the landscape really really different from
      what it was back in Clinton's first term: a lot of these points wouldn't have meant anything to people then (it was before the Total Domination of the HMOs).

      -5.63, -8.10 | Libertarian Liberal

      by neroden on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:55:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  right (7+ / 0-)

        your second comment is correct.  People are much readier for it than they were--but not quite ready.

        This issue is really about framing: when you explain the details of "Universal Healthcare" to the electorate, they love it.

        But they still hate "Universal Healthcare."  We have a language problem here; if we shift the language, we win the debate, because the people are with us on the policy.

        •  Single Billing Healthcare.... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          vivacia, mataliandy, Neon Mama

          Seriously, begin with that.

          We kicked ass tonight. You all did good.

          by roboton on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:33:28 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Do people really hate "Universal Health Care"? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I believe most polls show majority support for the idea, even using those terms.  Just call it "Health Care for All" if you want.  But I don't think we need to run away from the term.

          We get so spooked by the right wing yelling things like "socialized medicine" and "big government". Maybe people hate those terms, but I'm not so sure about "Universal Health Care".

          And I totally agree that the complicated, half-way proposal under Clinton was a disaster.  We need pure, single-payer, universal, basic health care for all.  Not satisfied with it?  Then buy some supplemental policy.  But you probably won't need to or want to.  Worried about harming new medical research?  Then let's choose as a nation to invest in that with some of the money we save.

          Universal health care should be a no-brainer.  Let's start working for it now.

          •  Children's Medical Fund (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Neon Mama

            Like "ferg" below, I think we should try to set up universal medical care for children (up to the age of 5, say) and then expand it from there.  It is cheap, it will be effective from a public health standpoint, and it will be deeply appreciated by young families who make up such an important segment of the swing vote.  It is easy to sell compassion for children, and I think Americans are ready to experiment (if not go whole hog for universal health care).

            Once people see how it works--and are shocked at the great expense and hassle of private insurance when it kicks in at age 5--they will be ready to extend age 12, to age 18, and then, perhaps to everyone.

          •  many people ... (0+ / 0-)

            support universal health care/universal health insurance, but there are also many who are strongly opposed to it ...

            based on my tabling experiences for universal health care/insurance in and near San Francisco.

            Some people REALLY HATE anything "government" - even those who are leaving the government funded post office and driving on government funded streets... with government funded police protection, etc.

            I have found it very difficult to even talk with them - they do not want to engage and are often quite rude... I have been surprised at their numbers and ferocity...

          •  MAYBE FREE-CHOICE MEDIPLAN or (0+ / 0-)

            or Free-choice family care.  Both "free" and "family" are words they toss about because they cause warm and fuzzy reaction.

            THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

            by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 02:52:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  yes, but it's still not ready yet (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hoolia, Neon Mama

        "medicare for all" still isn't to the point where Pelosi and Reid can take it up.

        But I don't know what the next step would be.

        I think, though, that more than the arguments like you've made that there needs to be a specific legislative goal.  We could debate the reasons for single payer for years (and some crazies want to debate various countries' different health care), but people tune out on arguments, and if it looks too confusing then they'll abandon it.

        Instead, maybe, it would be better to push a specific, simple bill.  For example, extending medicare to all children under 18.  All, meaning no means testing.  All children are automatically enrolled in medicare.

        It could also start in the states.

        •  What's wrong with "Medicare for all" (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ferg, neroden, doinaheckuvanutjob

          Everyone either has Medicare, or has parent or grandparent on Medicare. A friend on mine told me that her multimillionare father's heart bypass surgery was paid for by Medicare, so even the rich have Medicare. Everyone knows Medicare. Healthcare costs are driving the american auto companies into the ground. Get industry to demand that the government take over now. The only ones who will fight are the insurance companies and big pharm. Too bad. Everyone else is going to save a fortune, or at least see a bump in their weekly paycheck as the amount deducted for the employee part of the health insurance isn't deducted anymore. We can make this work. Now.

          •  the problem is that we can't pay (6+ / 0-)

            for Medicare for baby boomers as it is--and people know that in the backs of their minds.

            Until we emphasize how much money it's going to save--and that private insurance will still be available for those who want it--we're not going to win this one.

            •  Here's the thing (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KB, Bearpaw, hoolia

              There's another facet to all this. I think that most American are sick and tired of fighting with their insurance companies over medical care. I hate having to spend a whole morning on the phone talking to bureaucrats about bills they refuse to pay for services that we are clearly covered for. So there is that as well. We were having quite a discussion about this the other morning at the bus stop, all the moms on my block had their own stories about the frustrations of dealing with the damn insurance companies. Medicare is so easy.

              I am sure we would all gladly pay in taxes to fund Medicare (or a Medicare like program) what we now pay in insurance premiums. In our case, my husband's gross pay every two weeks is $1,400. Of that $19 is deducted for Medicare and $106 is deducted for Medical. His company pays an additional $400 a month. We are a family of four. So if instead of $19 going to Medicare, we paid $125 into Medicare every two weeks, his company pays nothing, but then gives him a raise to cover the difference. What if everyone did this. Then it could easily be funded. What do you think?

              Sorry Busby lost. My dad and his wife voted for her. They invited both candidates to address their senior group at UCSD, but Bilbray cancelled at the last minute. Apparently he did that a lot.

            •  cost: medicare for kids (0+ / 0-)

              Medicare for kids as a first step has the huge benefit that it's releatively cheap.  Medical care for kids is about 1/3 the cost of an adult and about 1/8 the cost of the elderly.

              So it's a step we could actually afford.

              The big problem with medical reform is it's a huge task, 15% of the economy.  So the Republicans can easily scare people about reforming everything at once.  But reforming it for kids is fairly cheap, and obviously taking care of kids health care needs to be a priority anyway.

    •  Enjoy your 4. (0+ / 0-)

      Then write that up as an LTE and send it.  You're preaching to the choir, here.  Go preach to the heathens.

    •  Public support (0+ / 0-)

      People in general already strongly support the idea of universal health care.  To the extent that the O.W. needs to be moved, most of that motion needs to happen around single-payer universal health care.

      "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

      by Bearpaw on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 08:19:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK I'm a college grad, but I do not really know (0+ / 0-)

        exactly what you mean by "single-payer" tho I get the "universal health care" part. Mayhaps if you explain it to me -- we can rephrase for we lingo deficient masses?

        THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

        by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 03:02:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Even the conservatives are beginning to see (0+ / 0-)

      that the health insurance industry imposes costs on the healthcare delivery process without producing corresponding benefits. Yeah, the original premise was cost control, but the reality has been an increase in costs due to increased bureaucracy, need to reward shareholders and looting by greedy officers and boards. It's structured as a zero sum game, so it rewards insurers for selecting only the healthy, forcing society to care for those that need the most care.

      There's a good argument for keeping hospitals and care deliverers competitive, but pooling funds and delivering payment for medical care isn't something we should leave to the free market for reasons that have become all too obvious.

      Single payer is a much more palatable meme than universal health care with the conservatives I talk to.

    •  Epidemic, epidemic, epidemic --This word moves (0+ / 0-)

      the window/frame.  They've been actively promoting fear of worldwide bird-flu epidemic. Use it as an excuse to stock up on flu shots, breathing masks, meetings with health care workers to plan how to handle this type emergency.     Is epidemic -- and our real lack of preparedness to survive if illness stops our transport of foods etc -- the extreme ---the WORST CASE SCENARIO --- that moves folks to shift.  PREVENT EPIDEMIC WITH UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE WHICH BENEFITS ALL.      I have 2 grainy b&w photos of self and siblings seated outside our door with a public health notice. QUARANTINE in WWII era. Can't recall if Measles/Mumps?  When did you last see that sign ANYWHERE? NO ONE COMES NEAR!!! Fear of catching it and responsible attitude educated --- not to spread it. Find out who friends are fast. And/or who is immune!!     The SARS EPIDEMIC showed how fast worldwide spread is.    So are we moving them or are they already moving our window????

      THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

      by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 02:44:04 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  GWOT needs to be exorcised from our vocabulary (12+ / 0-)

    Bush justifies everything from torture to the suspension of habeous corpus based on his so called "global war on terror". I think Democrats need to stop stop stop using this phrase. It is an inaccurate catch phrase that really has no meaning. Terrorism is a tactic not an entity and war implies using military power and military power is not the answer to the problems of ideological extremists. When the GWOT is brought up, Democrats should shift the conversation to security. Terrorism is a security issue not a military one and we need to shift that debate away from the military and back to security.

    Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~James Bryce

    by california keefer on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 06:50:51 PM PST

    •  And be sure to remember everyone (6+ / 0-)

      that the Patriot Act was not required to catch the Unabomber, a hardcore conservative domestic terrorist.

      Nope, it was running his manifesto that brought him down. As described by the movie "The Incredibles", the bad guy was brought down while he was "monologueing"

      We kicked ass tonight. You all did good.

      by roboton on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:36:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Re: War on Terror (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      california keefer

      Appropriate response:

      "What, you've declared war on horror movies?  If you're talking about finding terrorists, you need to be strategic and use appropriate tactics. Bombing the heck out of an innocent country ain't gonna work."

      Beware the everyday brutality of the averted gaze.

      by mataliandy on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 11:01:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Two phrases I've used to attempt jerking minds (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        into a sane zone.  Feel free to add more.
        If Bush planned the Amish war on terror -- he'd kill all truck drivers and confiscate all cows.

        Did we kill all white boys for Oklahoma City bomb?

        OOOOO- just thought of one:  
        Terror will starve if we stop feeding it.
        Or:  Terror & stray cats follow you home when fed.

        THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

        by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 03:17:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  what a great diary (0+ / 0-)

    I'm commenting so I can find it easily again

    touche pas à mon pote!, -7.63, -6.56

    by Mr Bula on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:08:24 PM PST

  •  in all things patience but (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    ... Iraq will not wait.

    "now my foes tell me plainly I am an ass: so that by my foes, sir I profit in the knowledge of myself"

    by looty on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:17:20 PM PST

    •  well, Get Out Now isn't exactly an option either (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Deena, OpherGopher, wondering if

      Iraq is complicated.  We're doing more harm than good, for sure, but we have to leave in an orderly fashion that at least gives those people a fighting chance.

      That starts by holding the GOP accountable for where the money is going, replacing Rumsfeld, and trying to get the freaking lights and power back on in Baghdad.

      •  You're not shifting the window. (0+ / 0-)

        This is a wholly rational position and of course the correct one.

      •  It starts IMHO (0+ / 0-)

        by having the Democratic majority affirm that we need to get out of Iraq asap, and applying all of the pressure it can muster on the Bush administration to set a timetable.  

        The war is The Issue.  

        I agree we can't just pack up and leave tomorrow.  But neither can we afford to stay any longer than is absolutely necessary.  

        Hearings and recriminations can wait.  We need a timetable now.

        "now my foes tell me plainly I am an ass: so that by my foes, sir I profit in the knowledge of myself"

        by looty on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 09:12:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Deja Vu -- Vietnam all over again (0+ / 0-)

        And Kissinger visits White House to advise like he did then.  We CAN leave. We MUST leave. It is their country.  
        They fought for Iraq against Iran in the 80's.  They fought to beat British occupiers. They fought when Bush one told them to rise up. (We failed to help.)
          (I don't know if some of those "death squads" are our Halliburton Hessians or CIA Black OPs.  Sorry, I don't trust our Plutocrats.  I'd like to see if removing Haliburton and Bechtel cut down "incidents.")
          What they apparently WILL NOT DO is fight like puppets on a string for the same old liars like Rumsfield.  THEY KNOW he was puppeteeer in 80's. They WON'T FIGHT to implant Christian values -- they REMEMBER Crusades.  They WON'T FIGHT so multi-national corporations can SAFELY STEAL their oil.
          Vietnam fought it out among themselves - once we got out.  Bush is on his way to sell our dead soldiers out by giving Vietnam permanent free trade (no need for congress to renew yearly after checking how FAIR anything is.)  So corporate cronies can do business.   OUR live disabled Viet Vets "sacrificed" like our military in Iraq --- and it STILL is not okay to them.  Why not FREE TRADE with Cuba?  
           The French did not stay after we beat England. They let us fight it out among ourselves. Supporters of the "crown" were not treated well. Articles of Confederation did not work and we had things like "Shay's Rebellion."   WE sorted it out and did the Constitution.  
           We have what 140,000 troops.  They have 300,000 troops. I think we should get out and let them work.

        THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

        by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 03:37:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Ahh sorry diarist (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    buhdydharma, doinaheckuvanutjob

    I'm still gloating.

    "I don't wanna listen to the fundamentalist preachers anymore!" -Howard Dean

    by astronautagogo on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:25:35 PM PST

  •  Excellent Analysis (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Jaboo, deep, sbdenmon

    And an excellent example of moving the "center" has been the slow tilt away anti-gay ballot iniatives.  As little as 3 years ago, the idea of gay-marriage was literally "unthinkable" in this country, with a few brave souls agitating for a basic right.

    The backlash of initial successes hurt, for a while, but in the end, it forced America to confront an uncomfortable issue ... the issue of basic fairness.

    We still haven't won that debate, but talking about it and making strides in key states act to make the very idea of "gay marriage" mainstream ... with the inevitable result (I hope), that the draconian and politically motivated counter-reactions that were used as wedge issues in the 90'3 and the 00's replaced (in time) with justice for all Americans, gay or straight.

    But without taking the "extreme" position, that gays have a right to marriage, the change in public opinion that you can see building in year over year trends would never have happened.

    Policies without vision is the noise before defeat.

    by canton on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:30:03 PM PST

    •  precisely (0+ / 0-)

      that window is shifting.  Within a decade, we'll see the legalization of gay marriages across multiple states.  The right knows this; that's why they're panicked.

    •  Wording change? Right calls it "Defense of (0+ / 0-)

      Marriage."   Call it "Marriage Prevention." Half the people who legally COULD be married in this nation, are NOT.  If you want to SUPPORT marriage, you must set the example by supporting ALL marriage. It was not legal for black and white to marry. Now it is. Then it was denied based on the COLOR of one partner.  Now the denial is based on the SEX of one partner.  Civil rights -- government MUST NOT choose whom you may marry unless the state has a "compelling interest."  Like close cousins create malformed children. Like sex with child under custodial care is wrong because it cannot be truly consentual.  Force = no. Choice = yes. Same sex marriage has no risk of deformed child, hence no need for state to intervene.  Some religions will marry gay couples --- so anti-gay is "establishing" one religious view above another.
      Extreme FRAME ----HOW to DETERMINE SEX? Science proves we have varying degrees of male and female hormones, traits like vestigial sex organs, some are born with both organs. So who decides what % is m or f? Test would invade privacy of medical records!!!! MYOB Can't be a state issue.

      THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

      by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 04:00:58 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I Do Windows (11+ / 0-)

    OK, then it's my job to keep insisting we impeach Bush, until I stretch the Overton Window across to include my once-unimaginable demand into acceptable policy. Actually, if I understand the Overton Window properly, it's my job to insist that we burn Bush alive slowly, by stuffing him with spent nuke fuel rods recovered from N Korea. That will drag the window closer to my insane demand, until it rests comfortably around the impeachment half-measure.

    Burning Bush Now!

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:30:50 PM PST

    •  . (6+ / 0-)

      Photobucket - Video and Image HostingPhotobucket - Video and Image HostingPhotobucket - Video and Image HostingPhotobucket - Video and Image Hosting

      YELL LOUDER!!!! ........ Hey, what's NION?

      by buhdydharma on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:39:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Investigate, Then Litigate (10+ / 0-)

      That's my slogan. Intrusive investigations of the Bush Administration to prepare the American people for impeachment.

      And, while I want to see him twisting slowly in the wind, I want Cheney hanging beside him. The only way that will happen is if they are very, very thoroughly investigated.

      Besides, a thorough, comprehensive investigation is the perfect way to bring out political tidbits to feed the public. I want them to see how the neocons work--in detail.

      One more thing: I don't hate these people. I don't hate Bush or Cheney. They are too human for me to hate them. I want them impeached purely because we need the example for future politicians. I want to establish a precedent that if you try to use the U.S. government for your personal aggrandizement and to line the pockets of your friends that you can expect to swing from the rafters when the people find out about it.

      Liberal Thinking

      Think, liberally.

      by Liberal Thinking on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 08:21:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Justice vs Revenge (0+ / 0-)

        I don't want them impeached just because I hate them. I hate them for the same reasons I want them impeached. I hope impeachment will deter future politicians from their kind and scale of crimes. That will cut down the amount of people I find myself hating. Good times.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:44:31 AM PST

        [ Parent ]


        IN TIME OF WAR.  Material support for terrorism.  By failure to properly secure munitions, they supplied weapons to the enemy. Where are those 97% of missing "small" weapons in IRAQ?
            Is that extreme enough? And true.  
        POSTING THE ATOM BOMB PLANS IN ARABIC ON INTERNET This is not a "little booboo." This is material support to terrorists. Remember, terrorists AND those who give material support.
            Extreme enough yet?

        THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

        by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 04:10:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Can I just have one more day (5+ / 0-)
    of gloating?

    (This is an excellent diary btw...)

    We kicked ass tonight. You all did good.

    by roboton on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:31:23 PM PST

  •  Classic: Alan Derschowitz' 2001-2 'Torture Tour' (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, thereisnospoon, lotlizard

    in the media.

    You could almost hear the grinding as the window was pulled rightward over the broken glass of the Bill of Rights.

    We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

    by Gooserock on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:35:36 PM PST

  •  Gotta shift the window BACK re TAXES (10+ / 0-)

    --Unthinkable : behead the rich and eat them

    --Radical : beggar the rich and banish them

    --Acceptable : tax the rich and well-to-do heavily

    --Sensible : tax the rich quite heavily and tax the well-to-do moderately

    --Popular : tax the rich heavily

    --Policy : tax the rich

    Help the Googlebomb! NM-01: Heather Wilson

    by lgmcp on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:38:14 PM PST

    •  Get Over Taxes (10+ / 0-)

      As long as the Republicans can say "tax cut" with impunity, we have a long way to go. We need to reset the word "tax" to begin with.

      When people talk about taxes, Democrats should always talk about wages. The moment the subject that taxes or tax cuts come up, that should be a trigger to say something like:

      Oh, that's because wages are so low. If you are having trouble paying taxes, then you are not earning enough. So, let's talk about the minimum wage. Let's talk about foreign competition for jobs. Let's talk about total compensation--pensions and healthcare and job creation. Let's talk about portability for healthcare plans and better education. Let's talk about job training. Let's talk about job insecurity.

      There are many reasons. First, it reminds people that taxes are a reasonable way to get government services.

      Second, it moves people to an issue friendly to Democrats--wages. Most people feel underpaid.

      Third, it reminds people that rich people are not being hurt by the supposedly high taxes. Taxes are progressive to spread the pain. If you are earning $500K a year, then a 20% tax leaves you with $400K. Anyone you know have a problem living on $400K?

      Fourth, there's a tradeoff between better wages and higher costs of public services. People don't like higher taxes because they think this money goes primarily as a gift to lazy indigent people who won't work for a living. That's, of course, nonsense. Most of it goes to lazy, indigent military contractors and other suppliers of government services on the corporate welfare roles. (Okay, that's exaggerating, but I digress.)

      We should be posing this dilemma to Republicans: Which would you rather do, raise taxes to support government services for people too poor to pay their own way, or raise wages so that those people can support themselves?

      Because that's the trade off. Do you let Wal-Mart, for example, employ people at wages that require them to apply for food stamps to make ends meet or do you force Wal-Mart to pay a living wage, so that you can take those people off public assistance?

      It's by posing these kinds of choices to voters that we can educate them on what the Republicans are really doing. And we don't need to wait for them to move along the Overton scale to get there.

      Liberal Thinking

      Think, liberally.

      by Liberal Thinking on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 08:37:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  oh yeah. we've got a lot of work to do on this (4+ / 0-)

        unless we can figure out how to make the American people at least slightly ok with raising some taxes, especially on the rich, we're NEVER going to rescue this country from its morass of debt.

        •  Here's a radical idea (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Liberal Thinking, Bearpaw, sbdenmon, lgmcp

          Equating someone who does not want to pay taxes as someone who is less than desirable or socially bankrupt.

          The person who doesn't want to pay taxes is the person who doesn't believe in schooling children so the country can be globally competitive. The person who doesn't want to pay taxes doesn't believe in border security so that our country can be safe. Etc, etc.

          •  and when someone harps about wasted taxes ... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Liberal Thinking, lgmcp

            And when someone harps about wasted taxes, simply tie the idea of oversight back in.  

            "The Repub leaders hated oversight when they were handing out no-bid cost-plus contracts.  We love oversight because we want you to know what you're getting for your money."

            "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

            by Bearpaw on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 08:29:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Corrupt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            I think of them as just being corrupt. Sort of a kind of tax cheat.

            Liberal Thinking

            Think, liberally.

            by Liberal Thinking on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:13:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  The "Republican Tax" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I'm going to start agitating for a new "Republican Tax." I mean that both ways....

          My tax would be a tax specifically to retire the debt run up by the Bush Republicans. We would hang it entirely on them. It would be labeled as the tax to retire the Republican debt.

          I would make it a surcharge on earnings over $100,000 per year, with no exemptions. And, I'd make it a flat tax of say, 5%. I'd add another additional tax for foreign companies operating in the U.S. That would be a 10% surtax on earnings not otherwise subject to U.S. taxes. Good-bye tax havens! These taxes would last until the entire amount of the supplemental spending Congress passed for all purposes is retired (with interest, based on the T-bill rate). That would put pressure on them to account for all spending within the budget, so that it's visible.

          The poor have already given in blood. It's time for the rich to give in treasure.

          Liberal Thinking

          Think, liberally.

          by Liberal Thinking on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:12:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Great analysis. Some slogans below. (0+ / 0-)

        TAX THE RICH or feed the poor yourself.

        What's in YOUR WALLET? Crony wallets are FAT.
        Building vote computers -- jobs Americans won't do?

        Taxes build roads for Humvees.

        Credit Card Taxes spend now. Bill your grandchild.

        Cut taxes. Shut down water and sewers.
        Cut taxes. Fire the Firemen.
        Cut taxes. Close all prisons.
        Cut taxes. Stop garbage collection.
        Cut taxes. Stop aggressive war.
        Cut taxes. End corporate welfare.

        THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

        by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 04:33:24 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Very well done, Mr Spoon sir (0+ / 0-)

      There are a few real nutjobs in the existing Republican House membership, fewer have trickled through to the Senate. If the Democrats in Congress play their cards right there will be a veto proof majority ready for any matter of substance :-)

      When will there be payback? There won't, there will be proper oversight for the executive branch from the legislative branch.

      When will there be payback? There won't, there will be international pressure for Cheney and Gonzales to face a war crimes tribunal.

       When will there be payback? There won't, there will be policy focused on cementing good ideas into place ... like campaign finance reform and an end to these earmark expenditures.

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise" - U.S. Constitution author and fourth President James Madison

    by Iowa Boy on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:41:09 PM PST

  •  pragmatic genius (0+ / 0-)

    Thank you for bringing some much needed perspective to the discussion of how to translate a wonderful electoral result into a lasting policy shift. Kudos!!

  •  Thanks for bringing this back... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    I was just thinking about this the other day and I could not remember the term....

    Maryland School of Public Policy Master of Public Policy Candidate

    by magicrusslc on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 07:48:10 PM PST

  •  And keep SS UNprivatized (5+ / 0-)

    That's one Overton Window that never went, uh, over into the acceptance column.

  •  History books... (3+ / 0-)

    ...more important than seeing them locked up in the brig or even removing them from power prematurely is discrediting forever their corrupt and mendacious ideology.

    This is so true.  when they grow up, I want my nieces and nephews to learn in their history classes the truth about what these criminals have done.  I just hope we can still afford new history books by the time they get to school!

    awesome diary, recommended!

  •  I'm Up With This (9+ / 0-)

    That's one reason I recommend an intrusive investigation of the Bush Administration. That is how to prime the American people for impeaching the P and the VP.

    However, I would suggest a nuance. There are two ways members of Congress can act. One is to be moderate. The other is to be to the right of the center. I'm fine with letting the leadership dwell in the middle for now. What I'm not fine with is those people who are over the line.

    Let me give you an example: Joe Lieberman. I see no reason to give him quarter for supporting right-wing idiotologies, to coin a term. Fine if he's willing to support moderate policies. Not good if he's going to support Iraq-right-or-wrong policies.

    The other group I will give no quarter to is anyone who voted for the military commissions act--the act that sent habeas corpus to the bottom of the lagoon. These people will feel my wrath in their next primary. They are not just too far to the right, they undermined the United States of America. This isn't a question of leaving the mainstream, it's a question of leaving civilization. They cannot be considered patriots. They broke their oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

    I understand that politicians have to get elected to be effective. I'm more than willing to accept less than stellar performance on my hot buttons. But, I want to establish clear standards for behavior. Trash the Constitution and you, Senator, could find yourself sitting on the curb asking for alms.

    Liberal Thinking

    Think, liberally.

    by Liberal Thinking on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 08:13:30 PM PST

  •  So..... (4+ / 0-)

    How long do we have to be patient about asking for a redux of the 9/11 investigation?  I may believe the neocons have been wounded, but I also believe the wound is not fatal.  The worst offenses of this administration have been "justified" by the constant insidious reminders of 9/11.  

    I think we owe it to ourselves and to future generations to record exactly how this scapegoat event has been used to consolidate power and subvert the Constitution---all in the name of "Keeping America Safe."  How fear has been wielded like a weapon over Americans.  We will never rid ourselves of these manipulators until they're exposed.  Until we get to the bottom of what really happened that September day, who allowed it to happen, and why.

    Otherwise, I'm cool with patience.      

  •  Great diary, and it's not just think tanks needed (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sbdenmon, makeitstop, gimbo

    Think tanks can shift the window, but so do lots of other things.  A classic example in the environmental movement is that people used to see Greenpeace as radical.  Then the Sea Shepherds split off and sank the pirate whaler Sierra, among other things, and by being much more radical than Greenpeace they moved Greenpeace  much closer to the mainstream.  Since then, the window has shifted back and now even Greenpeace is seen by mainstream America as radical again, while many activists see them as sold out and mainstream.  The Rethugs have done a lot to try and stop "eco-terrorism" and it is more for the fact that such actions make mainline environmental groups seem moderate and reasonable than any modest damage actually done by the eco-terrorist groups.

    And this is how Ann Coulter's hate filled stupid diatribes serve to make Bush's toned down stupid diatribes seem middle of the road.  

    Right now, the Dem's need to focus on being squeaky clean and reducing lobbyist influence (that goes for teacher's unions and other fav Dem contributors too just as it does for Big Oil).  Dems should work to end earmarks and REALLY brand "Republican Culture of Corruption" as a PERMANENT label for the GOP.  The best way to do that is get rid of scum like Jefferson, show no tolerance for ethics violations and be vigilant against the addiction to power and greed that plague Washington DC.  

    •  excellent points (0+ / 0-)

      no disagreements from me.  great comment.


      Corporate welfare kills soldiers

      Corruption starves babies

      Run for the border -- American Jobs Did

      Torture IS Terrorism

      George Fiddled while NOLA Drowned

      Human Rights vs. Human Wrongs

      Politically Correct vs. Morally Correct

      War Machine banks on your FEARS

      Aggressive War is Murder



      THOU SHALT NOT KILL: our soldiers, our sailors, our marines....BURN THIS BUSH.

      by Neon Mama on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 05:02:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree with you overall, but... (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not sure that this sentiment helps us move the window back in the left direction:

    Now, obviously, we do not want to repeat Republican tactics step by step.  We don't want to drive this truck as far left as the GOP has driven it to the right.

    We don't want to be too cautious, and we need to start building acceptance for now radical, or unacceptably leftist ideas if we are going to shift the terms of the debate back in our direction. If we start this project by ruling out everything that now seems to us as "far left" we are limiting the scope of our thinking too much.

    The job of the Leadership is to make sure that they stand squarely in the CENTER of that Window

    Staying in the dead center makes our "Leadership" look like anything but leaders. Being to radical can hurt, but pushing less than universally accepted ideas is the only way to show vision.

    When Reagan took office, he spoke a radical agenda, but presented it in a moderate tone. The Republicans bided their time on some things, but they knew that shifting public sentiment requires some gutsy policy moves, from time to time, as well. Also, remember that Reagan had to deal with a Democratic majority throughout his time in office, yet he still pressed, and got passed, massive tax cuts, huge defense spending, and other radical measures.

    We want to be strategic, we want to be measured, but we shouldn't be afraid of taking a stand from time to time. If we go too slow, we loose.

    I agree that we are the ones that need to pull the Overton Window leftward with new, progressive ideas, but if we are going to succeed in affecting change, we want our party leaders to do some heavy pushing from the inside.

    •  i think you misunderstand me (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OpherGopher, granal, Got a Grip

      staying in the Center of the window doesn't mean failure to act.

      Pelosi's first 100 hours is a move to stand directly in the center of that window by promoting hte "popular" and the "sensible."

      There is a TON of policy that stands in the "popular" and "sensible" categories that is not yet law in this country, because we've been hijacked by the right.

      The Leadership needs to LEAD to enact those things; but it's OUR job to take the currently unpopular and make it sensible.

      •  I think we are basically on the same page, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        I agree that "popular" and "sensible" is a exactly what we need for the first 100 hours.

        As time goes by, in small doses and with the right language, we will need our leaders to engage with "radical" ideas to make them "sensible." We will need more from them than just standing in the dead center as the Republican's will no doubt continue to pull hard to the right with newer, crazier thought.

        Also, I think we loose some intensity and undercut our purpose when we say that we wont go as far left as Republicans have taken us to the right; it implies that there is something bad about "leftiness" just as much as "rightiness" and thus overvalues the center. It all depends how you define Left and Right (they are not absolutes); at this point I think we have a much greater tendency to associate the Left with the crumbled, historical notion of "Communism" than the Republicans ever associate the Right with Fascism. Left should mean what WE want it to mean, not what They want it to mean, and we should never stop pushing to make the world better.

  •  Some issues can't wait ... (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    tankej, thereisnospoon, sbdenmon, Ashaman

    I'm sorry ... but much of the "pump" has been primed ... there is preparation for change, even if not all the required change.

    Energy issues are a prime example ... the American public is, IMHO, ready for Energize America ... and the world can't wait any longer.

  •  A weekly Overton window thread (7+ / 0-)

    would be interesting to have thereisnospoon. It would give us an opportunity to discuss how best to present issues to our peers(mainstream America).

    •  i'm considering it (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      motherlowman, cwaltz

      but it's tough work without an actual think thank behind you.

      •  Well, I thank you (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Got a Grip

        for your think. :)

        This is a brilliant diary, and I think the weekly thread is a great idea.

        Googlebomb early and often: John McCain is an ass.

        by motherlowman on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 10:52:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Think tank (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OpherGopher, sbdenmon

        It would be great to have one but in the immortal words of Rummy, "You go to war with the military you have, not the military you wish you had?"

        I have a question. What are the biggest impediments to having a running think tank right now? I know it can't be talent because I have seen what the progressive side has to offer on various sites and it is awe inspiring. I can't imagine that privacy would be the issue(although it might be a concern on this site if we did do an overton here because redstate et al would have access to the ideas while in their infancy) with the ability to have private yahoo groups. Is it money? Is it time commitment? Just curious.

        Anyway I do think it would be interesting to see folks interested from this site take an idea from infancy and make it mainstream. I think it could be done.(Perhaps I'm still on a high from a Webb and Tester victory)

      •  It would be a commitment but (0+ / 0-)

        what you could do is have a diary where you focus on one topic every week, like energy policy, abortion rights, or church/state boundaries, and the thread could be for everyone tossing out ideas, refining messages, and thinking about ways to get them out into the world.

        Your weekly contribution need not be as well considered and flat-out fabulous as this one :-)

        I think it's a great idea.

  •  A must-read diary (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    Very illuminating. I was already familiar with the basic ideas, but you've explained the strategic model very clearly. This diary deserves to be saved as a resource for dKos members to refer to in one fashion or another. Consider adding tags such as "frameshop", "rhetoric", etc. Many thanks!

  •  I'm helping shift the overton window (0+ / 0-)

    impatience is how we get things moving.

    Be the alien you want to see in the world.

    by PaulGaskin on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 09:33:51 PM PST

  •  Increase the Usury Tax to fund free clinics (0+ / 0-)

    That's right the Usury Tax, formerly known as the capital gains tax, and designed to benefit the investor class at the expense of those doing actual work, based on the bizarre fantasy that people need more incentive to invest their spare money for growth more than they need to break their backs for an hourly wage.

    But despite their crimes against us, various shareholders and humanity, I don't think Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Rice et al. should face the death penalty or even be extradited to The Hague. As long we are sure they are in a federal penitentiary where they can do no harm, and their stolen billions have been recovered, with interest, I think we can handle this in a principled way that will send a message to other bands of thuggish would-be tyrants; whatever level of depraved barbarity you sink to, you will not bring us down with you. We will retain our principles and offer the prepetrators the full protections of the Magna Carta and U.S. Constitution so recently stripped from US citizens.

    (although waterboarding is an acceptable way to track down funds, testimony produced by it should not be used it court. Experts say it sounds to bubbly and gasping anyway.)


  •  I agree (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    mataliandy, thereisnospoon, sbdenmon

    So long as we don't confuse patience with our leaders with appeasement with our enemies:

    Lanny Davis on Joe Scarborough today:

    So now we Democrats have an opportunity. And if the first thing that I read about starting tomorrow morning, is that Democrats are planning to issue subpoenas, start to do investigations, do exactly what the Republicans did to us, we're going to lose our opportunity the same way that the Gingrich revolution lost its.

    And so now is the time--I just came back from Hartford, with Joe Lieberman--now is the time to listen to the message of Joe Lieberman. You can be a principled Democrat--which he is, by the way--and you can still reach across the aisle and work with Republicans...

    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

    by kovie on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 11:16:21 PM PST

    •  Opposite of Overton: Lanny's idiot words. Silence (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SecondComing, sbdenmon

      is better than that tripe.

      How defeatist can you get?

    •  he can go to hell (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sbdenmon, kovie

      however, we SHOULD at least give the appearance of trying to work with the Republicans.

      Heck, we might actually pass some good legislation in concert with a chastened Republican Party.

      Remember that they're not ALL evil on the other side of the aisle.  Most of them think they're doing right by America, just like we do--and a lot of them have been hijacked by this Administration and haven't dared oppose it.

      •  I suspect that (3+ / 0-)

        even if one is forced to become a prostitute out of a lack of choice, it still messes you up for a very long time, well after you've left the biz. Lack of self-respect does that to you. So I'd be very wary of reaching out across the aisle too often or far, as it's liable to backfire. These Repubs are simply too unused to behaving in a principled manner, and it'll take a long time before most of them can be trusted to keep their word, tell the truth or act in good faith. It wouldn't hurt to at least try to reach out, but very carefully.

        And with the likes of Joe nowhere within sight. Like Saddam, he needs to be contained.

        "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

        by kovie on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 03:21:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Lanny Davis is a DKE frat brother of GWB. (0+ / 0-)

      According to an item in U.S. News and World Report, he was branded by GWB and others as part of his initiation into Delta Kappa Epsilon.

      •  Geez (0+ / 0-)

        Every time I read about one of these bizarre frat riturals I am reassured of my decision to never go down that path in college. I've nothing against the more legit frats that don't do this sort of thing and aren't about date rape, nightly keggers and exam files.

        But Shrub's was clearly an Animal House type of frat, just a lot less sympathetic than the one in the movie (which, interestingly, was also DKE IIRC, and took place around the same period that Bush went to college). Gotta love the values it instilled in both.

        Davis is just a shilling douchebag, while Bush is evil. Each tends to attract the other.

        "You are entitled to your math and I'm entitled to THE math." - Karl Rove

        by kovie on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 02:02:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  IMPEACH (0+ / 0-)

    That is one window that we can start shifting as well. I bet it's on lots of minds now that Democrats control Congress. If we get the word out there again, it might just feel a little more possible and a little more safe to think about this time. Who was it here that had the IMPEACH campaign going again?

    •  Kagro X (0+ / 0-)

      Oh yeah, it was Kagro X, that's what I thought. And, I see that this was already brought up up-thread but I missed it. Oops!

      •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

        i printed up my stickers and posted them on lamposts and stop signs around my neighborhood.  It's great!

        •  We're moving the window in a new space. (5+ / 0-)

          Time to take the message to a more "mainstream" physical space.

          I'm encouraging everyone to go out today and "harvest" any campaign signs still standing on public property.

          In my area, most of the candidates were using those double-sided posterboard signs that fit over wire frames.

          I'm taking those -- and I encourage everyone to do the same before they're gone -- and cutting the sides, flipping them inside out, and making "Impeach." signs on the inside.

          Staple them back together, and fit them right back over the wire frames. Then we can bring the "Impeach." message out of guerrilla space, and right into the place where people are already used to seeing their political "speech."

          But I would urge you to act now, before the campaigns come and collect them for disposal. These are free materials, and your neighbors want them removed from the roadside, anyway.

          Wait a while before redeploying, since there will be people out looking to dispose of leftover signs right now. But they store flat and don't take up much space. Stick them in the garage or in a closet for a while, and maybe we'll bring them all out in unison.

  •  how's this for a radical idea (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    What you're talking about here is learning theory. People only learn one step at a time. They will reject an idea if it is more than one step beyond what they already know and accept.

    But what if we changed the whole paradigm that you're talking about? What if we rejected the very terms "radical," "popular," etc. What if we spoke of everyone being in "the mainstream," or didn't use that concept at all.

    When you speak of "moderates" and "mainstream" you marginalize many people, you perceive them as "other," as "alien." How can we truly put into practice the American value expressed so eloquently by Jefferson when he said "all men are created equal" if we continue to perceive some people as other? If we truly value every person--as I believe progressives do--then what if we changed our language to express that value?

     What if we could shift people's perceptions to include all as "the middle" and the diversity of all--E Pluribus Unum--as good?

    Just some thoughts inspired by your wonderful diary and inelegantly pecked out on my Treo before bedtime.

    Thank you, thereisnospoon.

    •  nice idea, but (0+ / 0-)

      the only problem is that "radical" and "popular" aren't themselves memes or paradigms are they are, in Plato's words, actual entities in form heaven.

      No matter how you view a situation, people are always going to have reactions that are either "yeah, that sounds good" or "no, that's off the wall."  You'd have to change the psycholinguistic array of our cultural behavior, unfortunately.

      Good thoughts, though.

      •  that's why I said it was a radical idea (0+ / 0-)

        One of the concepts that our culture teaches us almost as soon as we emerge from the womb is that there are ideas that are "popular" or "mainstream" and there are ideas that are "radical" or "off the wall." Those are not ideas we are born with. They are ideas we are taught, in the same way that we are taught to be prejudiced or biased against certain groups of people. It's learned behavior. And anything that is taught can stop being taught if there is another perspective to replace it.

        The impossible just takes a little longer. But as a professional counselor, I know that if you go step by tiny step in the direction you want, eventually you'll turn around and look with amazement at how far you've come.

        I didn't expect much of a positive response to my comment, because I recognize that it's radical, but I think it's worth pondering.

        You can make it if you focus on connections, not on differences. -7.00, -6.77

        by sunflight on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 09:30:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  You're right on target (0+ / 0-)
    Thanks for putting into words what I could not earlier today.  I've been thinking about this for weeks now, and I couldn't have put it better myself.

    "Those who would divide us will never be able to lead us."

    by vibinc on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 02:47:56 AM PST

  •  Abortion (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    OpherGopher, sbdenmon, bluetownship

    I've often wondered how the Democrats could begin to reclaim the abortion debate from the radical right, using the 'frame shifting' Overton Window model.  

    It's a challenging issue but it also has great potential.  There are many, many people that would like to see some sort of closure on this subject.  The radical right, for political reasons, has focused on such a divisive course of action on this topic.

    There are very few people out there that would disagree that fewer women choosing abortions would be a positive development.  They also would agree that if these woman freely made this choice it would be good.  Adoption is good, birth control is good, access to prenatal health care is good, job security for pregnant mothers is good.  In short, while not everyone will agree with every item, there is room for a lot of positive change in the debate.  Take control of the root issues, don't rely on the courts to deal with the symptoms.

    Bring people together on this issue and that will become the solution to the problem.

    ...the train's got its brakes on and the whistle is screaming.

    by themank on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 04:09:51 AM PST

    •  Absolutely! (0+ / 0-)

      Very well put.

    •  Privacy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sbdenmon, dallasdave

      It has to hinge on privacy - "it's between a woman and her doctor".  This has already been said many times by many Dems, including Kerry, but the message is too sane, quiet and sensible - it gets drowned out by the raging mania about cutting up fetuses and killing babies, etc.

      I've suggested before that the response to this should be to find women who have suffered from the lack of abortion access, and/or have needed late-term abortions, and tell their stories in vivid terms.  Give them faces just as the anti-choice folks have given faces to the aborted kids they profess to want to save (though I doubt they'd give a rat's ass about them once they were born).

      People need to see reproductive rights as something essential and desperately needed by all women, not some luxury that's only demanded by the rightwing caricatures of lazy sluts and bitchy career women.

      Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

      by hrh on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 05:59:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There's an argument for a broader "privacy" (0+ / 0-)

        issue covering right to bodily control, identity control, and personal information control that addresses abortion, identity theft, government surveillance (direct and via 3rd parties), government imposed sexual morality, and the victimless crimes of the war on drugs™. People are pretty fired up on all of these, especially those with libertarian leanings.

  •  We need a Leader. (0+ / 0-)

    A really sharp, articulate, charismatic leader.
    I fully agree that we cannot depend on our "leadership" alone, and that WE must take the lead in framing the arguments and policies that will move that Overton Window.
    But, as we get closer and closer to 2008 (campaigns begin in about 2 days...), we really, really would benefit from having a strong leader to articulate our message.
    Do we have one yet?
    Is there one out there somewhere?
    And, Fantastic Diary, spoon, as always!


    have a clear objective,
    a simple method,
    confidence in the worth of the process
    and work every day

    like farming,
    planting trees
    or any of our good and virtuous activities

    PATIENCE is not passive inactivity


    Great summary, thanks

    "We must have strong minds, ready to accept facts as they are." Harry S. Truman

    by slowheels on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 04:19:10 AM PST

  •  No Patience: Power Corrupts (5+ / 0-)

    You make a good argument for patience in many areas.

    But I think we have one area that cannot wait, an urgent matter that must be dealt with immediately.

    The ancient truism still holds today: Power Corrupts.

    The Democratic party is relatively clean at the moment, partly because they have been the minority party.  The Republican party is a cesspool of corruption, partly because they have been the majority party.  The money always flows to the people in charge, to the ones that can change policy.  

    Now that the situation is reversed, we must fight quickly to keep that power from corrupting the Democrats, or all our energy will have been wasted.

    That means election reform.  Campaign finance reform. Lobbying reform.  Ethics reform.  Oversight and enforcement with teeth.  

    We cannot have patience on any of these items, because we are in a race against time.  The corrupting offers of money to Democrats probably started yesterday.

    Fortunately, Speaker Pelosi (I do like the sound of that) has put 'draining the swamp' in her 100 hour plan, and that gives me real hope.  But we must make that swamp draining our first priority, and attack it with a vengeance.

    •  RECOMMEND (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      We need to make a big show of this, too. Put Jefferson and any other corrupt Dem in the trashcan, we don't need them. they feed the moral equivalence fallacy.

      Stronger than all the armies is an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo

      by racerx on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 05:59:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I agree - posted on another thread: (0+ / 0-)

    Let's play them (the Reps) along.  Take our time. Get all we can out of them. But never, ever forget.
    We have to lay the groundwork for 08 with the American people.  They have to see what they did this time around was right.

    We must make progress on Iraq.  A quick clean break now will be less painful than acting as a Kerensky gov't and continuing a losing war up until 08.

    Clean up corruption. Our hands must be cleaner than cleaner. That means no "Democratic" Lobbyists getting any special favors.

    Move out on health care. Take care of drugs for our older citizens.

    Tread lightly on gay rights and abortion. Don't compromise our principles but don't ram anything thru that can't wait 2 years.

    Republicans - Plutocrats and Pedophiles.

    by victor lazlo on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 04:59:42 AM PST

  •  want to get really, REALLY radical?? (0+ / 0-)

    Start by getting control of the Omnibus bill BS and the secret 'earmarks'.

    The goal will be to arrive at a future in which Congress, and the public, actually read and understand what they are voting for.

    Wow, that is radical.  And really easy to explain to voters.

    The status quo is shameful.

    ...the train's got its brakes on and the whistle is screaming.

    by themank on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 05:05:28 AM PST

  •  So Spoon, what you're saying (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sbdenmon, Bob Guyer

    is that after all our hard work and hours of dedication to the cause, you want us to give more???

    Well, I'm feeling worn out and have other things to do with my life.  But since you asked so nicely, I'll give it ONLY another 50 years.  By that time, I'll be close to 100-time for youngsters to drive.  :)

  •  Thank you for this one (0+ / 0-)

    We need to be patient--fast action will cause a seriuos rebuke in two years.  Don't be overzealous!!

  •  First, see where the window IS (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SecondComing, sbdenmon, artisan

    I think many of us mistake the real window for the FAKE window our media bastards paint on the wall.

    For example, a majority believe that Bush lied us into Iraq. (misled is the word used, of course)


    A majority say IF Bush lied us into Iraq, he should be impeached. (At least!)

    So the window is there, and yet we somehow think that impeachment is somehow radical. It's not. What has happened is that the media (who fear us taking away their monopoly) will frame EVERY issue the way they want the window to look. And they don't want impeachment, they want more mergers.

    It's a con job, as usual.

    I say we need some serious money spent on polling, to see where the window is, and then work to move THAT window, not the bullshit fake window Rupert Murdoch and the Mouse paint on the wall.

    Stronger than all the armies is an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo

    by racerx on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 05:52:20 AM PST

  •  Economic efficiency- radical idea. (0+ / 0-)

    The War for Oil has interupted any progress in energy efficiency, we are lied to on labor costs being the reason for corporate decisions to move production to China.  The big reason is that Communist China provides cheap hydro-power (Ganges Dam) which has in fact propelled them forward.  

    Energy efficiency means more profits, lower energy bills, less externalities, and can offset wage and benefit increases.

    We have been screwed by oil agenda.

    Efficient industrial technologies will be the next big moneymaking and growth sector.  The world wants it, and we cannot afford to misss this boat. The longer we daze around in oilfields and battlefields, rather than build fuel cells, refit our industry with efficient technologies, use wind, hydro, solar and other possible alternatives,  we lose in expanding innovation in real world markets.

    Most of our domestic and foreign problems can be traced back to our stagnating oil resource-driven economy.  It's time to turn the wheel, and the benefits of a more efficient economy will provide jobs, help homes to become more efficient, decrease our foreign embroilments, decreased energy costs will allow families to spend more money on quality of life or savings, increase health by reducing pollutants in air.  It will allow small businesses to hire more people, expand their business, and would be a gift to every American with high energy bills. Small farmers can refit for composting manure free and sell their energy back to the grid.  (I know of one such farmer, almost bankrupted by energy costs, saved by refitting a composting digestor on site).

    If we can offer incentives for existing alternative fuels and technologies, we can begin to reap the benefits before the Presidential election, and in lees than ten years time, new technologies will propell us (finally) into the 21st century.

  •  Example: Universal health care for children. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    That is a gateway to a single-payer system, of course.

    We tried to reform health care in 1992-1994 in a "big bang" approach, and we remember how that ended.

    Now, the idea is radical as opposed to unacceptable.  Implement universal health care for children, and a universal system for adults will become acceptable.  

  •  Thank you :-) (0+ / 0-)

    Couldn't have said it better, myself.

  •  universal health care for AMERICA (0+ / 0-)

    not just the kids. everybody. see my sig line. See Conyers Medicare for ALL

  •  radical idea-get rid of payroll tax (0+ / 0-)

    get rid of separate payroll deduction for medicare/social security. One progressive universal income tax. No more separate regressice taxation on working people. Pay for everything... military security and social security from same tax pool and same tax system.

  •  radical idea-get rid of payroll tax (0+ / 0-)

    get rid of separate payroll deduction for medicare/social security. One progressive universal income tax. No more separate regressice taxation on working people. Pay for everything... military security and social security from same tax pool and same tax system.

  •  culture defines politics (0+ / 0-)
  •  The most important post (0+ / 0-)

    I have read since the election ended. We need to remember this!

    Impossible is nothing

    by DrSpike on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 07:05:48 AM PST

  •  ThereIsNoLeft (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    There is no acceptable alternative economic model to capitalism since the implosion of communisim. Without an alternative economic model it is hard to say there is a left. I think this is an area that needs a lot of work.

    I have been looking at this for years and have found that there are people seriously thinking and writing about this as well. Introducing well thought out economic model alternatives to the U.S. version of capitalism would be a good window to open because it would create a lot of room for the center to move toward.

    I think your posts on the Overton Window have been great and I agree whole heartedly. Let's keep it going, it will take a long time but it will be a lot of fun and it will help move things in a progressive direction. If you are a window opener you have to tollerate always being somewhat outside the acceptable range of debate and to know that your stuff is not designed to be implemented right out of the box.

    Our economy sucks up our environment, people, and government. Redesign it at Beyond Political Center

    by Bob Guyer on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 07:15:48 AM PST

  •  One position we can start moving... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Bearpaw, Karma for All

    Peace is not a liberal position.

    Peace is a moderate position.

    Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear. - Ambrose Redmoon

    by MNW on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 07:21:35 AM PST

    •  Hell, peace is conservative (0+ / 0-)

      Hell, peace is conservative, at least in the sense of "tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions".

      There are few things more radical than deciding to systematically kill huge numbers of people in order to change "existing views, conditions, or institutions".

      "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner." - Nelson Mandela

      by Bearpaw on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 08:38:30 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I missed your first diary on Overton Windows (0+ / 0-)

    Just read it.  Wow.  It explains a lot, like why the positions taken in the fifties and sixties by my very moderate parents have "suddenly" become "liberal."  Thanks for the enlightenment and for a way to think about what's going on and to work for a more rational future. The concept of Overton Windows also fits neatly with something Thom Hartmann was talking about on his radio program yesterday--about how Americans tend to look for "leaders" when what they really need is representatives.  He referred to Margaret Mead's quote about a small group of determined people changing the world. He suggested that when that small group starts a little parade, bit by bit people join it, and then sooner or later a political type jumps to the head of the parade and says "It's my parade" and things start to get accomplished.  

    "The point is, every good candidate should have a positive agenda. But you also have to fight back." Al Franken, The Truth with Jokes, p. 104

    by Rona on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 07:35:03 AM PST

  •  One problem with trying to follow the same method (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    as the right wing is the difference between conservatives and liberals...I think there is a greater tendency among those who identify as conservatives to want someone to tell them how to think, how to act; liberals and left-wingers don't take marching orders quite so willingly, or, in many cases, at all. We have a tougher row to hoe in this regard, but it is offset by the fact that many of our issues are, by nature, closer to the thinking of more people.

    My prescription for moving the window left: we need to work real hard on not being snobs, on biting our tongues hard when the "I told you so" moments come up. It's hard, of course, but the only way to convince people that they are really liberals at heart is to treat them with respect and let them agree with us. And we need to push single payer health care (which, incidentally, was never part of Hillarycare and was not even considered under Clinton). We need to push Single Payer Healthcare because so many people need it and because it is demonstrably not radical...pretty much every civilized country has it in some form.

    "All governments lie, but disaster lies in wait for countries whose officials smoke the same hashish they give out." --I.F. Stone

    by Alice in Florida on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 07:39:15 AM PST

    •  Arrogance is the thing that gripes conservatives (0+ / 0-)

      here about "pointy headed" intellectuals.  So I heartily agree with your don't be an "I told you so".
      Widen the circle of smart People.  This involves having a non confrontational inclusive style that brings good information about single payer health care and other issues.  Start discussion groups. We are going to start a group where everyone picks a founder and gets to know a lot about them and then try to argue modern day problems. It's not a short term solution but will make politics more fun.

      "It's time to rein in the rascals and rotate the crop"

      by MontanaMaven on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:52:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary, I'd posit though (0+ / 0-)

    that the Overton Window has already shifted enough with regard to the Iraq war, and it requires the Senate and House to move now towards getting our troops out of Iraq.  

  •  We need better speakers (0+ / 0-)

    for our side. The usual round of suspects that hit the media shows like Biden, Lieberman, Begala, Carville, etc. are not going to push the envelope to even begin framing the issues.  They're too busy running away from the term "liberal." I don't want ranting Ann Coulters (I just made the sign of the cross to ward off the evil spirit) and O'Reillys. Our usual guys are too political. We need thinkers and scholars and experts to open the dialogue.

  •  I think that the (0+ / 0-)

    reason they try to reframe policy positions to make them palatable to the middle is not to pursue an ideological agenda but because of the financial windfall for a small group at the expense of the middle.

    privitization of public resources like schools and prisons is simply to reward cronies not for the purpose of doing a good job.

    follow the gold seam as John LeCarre said in The Honorable School Boy:)))

  •  An Anecdote (0+ / 0-)

    I was having dinner with a Republican friend of mine. We enjoy getting little political digs on each other. I don't remember what he was talking about, but he said something like "sometimes torture is right."

    I quickly, and without hesitation, said "torture is wrong. It is not subject to debate."

    He was put off but that ended the conversation.

    The best way to change the discourse is to start locally. If someone starts arguing about evolution, global warming, torture, don't get sucked into relativism. That is the game they're playing, and you push things into the realm of acceptable by even jumping into the argument.

  •  Spot on Spoon! (0+ / 0-)

    Can you just repost this every day?

    Cry "Mandate!" and let slip the hounds of accountability.

    by sagra on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 09:50:43 AM PST

  •  Great diary from one of my favorite diarists (0+ / 0-)

    You should be a shoo-in for front-pager for next year.


  •  representative democracy (0+ / 0-)

    I hope thereisnospoon and others will repeat the message of this diary until it is well and truly hammered home.

    We must understand that ours is a representative democracy.  It is the job of those who are elected to office to represent their constituents.  It is not their job to be "parents" to adults who still hanker for a "Mommy" or a "Daddy."  It is not their job to impose their own moral values (whether the subject be poverty or abortion) or to provide spiritual guidance to the nation.  It is not their job to "know best" and override the clearly expressed will of We the People, except as is required to protect and defend that Constitution which serves as our shield against tyranny of the majority.

    On the margins, our elected representatives can provide "leadership" in the form of rhetoric designed to change hearts and minds, coupled with some carefully chosen stands on principle.  But the diarist is exactly right about who needs to do the heavy lifting.  It is us.  "We are the ones we've been waiting for."  I hope we have arrived.

    Homeland: as in Bantustan, or as in home of the brave and land of the free?

    by homeland observer on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:21:54 AM PST

  •  Defining the middle. Great diary, as always (0+ / 0-)

    Thom Hartmann is a great guide for this.  His book "Screwed: The Undeclared war on the Middle Class" is genius.

    "It's time to rein in the rascals and rotate the crop"

    by MontanaMaven on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:54:49 AM PST

  •  Pssst: "Thereisnospoon." Pass it on. (0+ / 0-)

    This is what I've been waiting for. I've been keeping my powder dry, holding my half of the torn playing card, and waiting for the secret password to be whispered, so I'd know when to start diarying on putting an end to corporate personhood, and insisting that the right to work means employers cannot fire you at will.

    Psssst, everybody: "Thereisnospoon." Pass it on.

    Left. Because it's right.

    by 4thepeople on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 10:59:02 AM PST

  •  It seems it's already happening here, in the (0+ / 0-)

    past year I've been around.

    When I first visited dkos I never saw diaries or comments about the problems of capitalism and how it might need some adjustments--as if that were possible. All my life it's been regarded as this sacred entity that could not, must not be tinkered with at all. Don't even think of such a thing. The sky would fall.

    But in the last few months I began to see signs of others thinking about the very same thing. Maybe this is just coincidence, or maybe one comment grows more comments as people start to explore the possibilities of that "unthinkable" idea and move it toward the "radical" zone.

    What do you think?

    We will never eliminate poverty in America unless we do it comprehensively and more incrementalism. - John Edwards

    by Gorette on Thu Nov 09, 2006 at 01:33:26 PM PST

  •  I agree (0+ / 0-)

    Well said, spoon.

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