Daily Kos

Endorse this, Kos!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 10:34:06 AM PDT

Kos wrote a diary today detailing his policy on advertisement.  It was very thoughtful, and very logical--but I disagree with it whole heartedly.

Here's why...

http://kos.dailykos.com/

I'm not going to go on about the purpose of DailyKos.  It's his province, not mine--I just live here.  So I don't want anyone angry here, I'm just defending my turf like any cornered animal would.

Liberals are an endangered species.  I live in one of hotbeds of liberalism, NYC.  It doesn't matter.  I still can't talk about it with office mates, friends and family.  This town is filthy with priviliged, rich, college-educated whites, who are convinced that the free market--hold your hats--is actually free.  I meet at least three of those categories, so I fit in to some degree, but I still live like a hunted beast.

I want a space to be free.  For me.  Personally.  Call it a liberal spin-free zone.  Now, I know what you're thinking... the term liberal zone implies spin.  No.  I just. Don't.  See.  That.

I don't see all the facts sometime--it's true.  I may have mistakenly been defending Harry Reid for months now.  In light of the LA Times article yesterday, I admit I may have been wrong.  But my defenses weren't spin--they were the facts as I had been able to find them.  And I looked, I investigated.

Regardless, when I see advertisements on my space, our space, which advances an agenda contrary to my conception of what the site's agenda is-- I get mad.  And then I get frustrated, and then I get scared, and then I get suspicious.  I remember what my AP history teacher used to tell us, "The radicals make the revolution, and then the moderates dump them and write the new constitution."

Maybe you want to call it free speech.  You have an argument there, but logic and legality are not a substitute for ethics.  Or for that matter, feelings.  That Chevron adverisement probably cost three or four times as much to make than it did to buy space here.  That ad, from design to focus groups, is a forty-fucking-caliber rifle aimed between my eyes.  

What if Chevron wanted to buy all the ad space on kos.  And what if they were willing to outbid and pay more for space.  Yes, the money might go a long way ... but the white and orange motif is suddenly inundated with Blue and Red Chevrons.  Would it still be possible for less monied advertisers to post here?  If Chevron offers more money, than say, an ad by www.studentloanjustice.org, who could justify not taking the Chevron ad... if the principle is money.

The difference between liberal bias, and conservative bias, makes more sense when you think how far centrist values have drifted to the right.  An oil interest can outspend any liberal advertisement.  On any number of sites.  You give them an inch...  And what happens when liberal adveristers can't afford the space?  

It is true, that there are other sites specifically made for Blue buying, but... I think preference for ethics here should over rule the urge to bring in more money.  I've been waiting for the netroots to get co-opted by special interests.  Is this the beginning of the end?

Look, we're partisan.  Everyone who reads this site, who isn't a contributor--know this already.  Even those centrists and moderates who venture here, know the territory they trod.  To me, taking the money and posting the ad is a blatant endorsement.  "The Nation" be damned.  I don't have a voice there.  I do here.  And I don't want to lose it, or have it corrupted by dirty money.

If a Congressman took thousands of dollars from big oil and then used it to campaign on progressive causes, you'd be equally suspect, wouldn't you kos?  And just think... how far would your liberal credentials go, if your entire site was funded by conservative dollars.  

Kos has become one of the few havens against the right that I have.  And life in NYC.  Don't take that away from me too.  This sounds like the justification that many have made already--for selling out.  The Revolution is dead, vive la revolutionne.

Tags: advertising (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 38 comments

  •  My solution (16+ / 0-)

    Kos has become one of the few havens against the right that I have.

    If it's that important to you, then buy a subscription.

    Founder of the Committee to Save asdf

    by droogie6655321 on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 10:37:48 AM PDT

  •  I agree completely (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ZappoDave, HammClov

    Part of the problem is that it is a slippery slope. First it's Chevron. If Chevron can advertise here why can't Halliburton? If Halliburton can advertise here why can't the RNC? This may seem ridiculous, but if you're going to compromise your message slightly by giving an oil company ad space, then you give way to Republican values.

    •  Sell them the rope. (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      ETinKC, XStryker, condoleaser, txlosthorn

      If the RNC wants to advertise here and contribute to Kos, let them.  I'd be glad to see their money go to Markos and the health of the site instead of going to where it might do them some good.

      "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

      by nightsweat on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 11:00:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  it's odd to assume it does them no good (0+ / 0-)

        again, I see defenses of this, but that's not one of them.

        advertising works.

        I read comments here from people during the debate on that ad "well it looks like Chevron has some progressive leadership"... and so forth.

        advertising works.

        reality.

        •  It's odd to assume it would (0+ / 0-)

          Advertising's efficacy is and has been dwindling because of oversaturation.  Consumers are more skeptical and cynical than ever.

          Sure, Jane Doe might be swayed by an ad on CBS during her favorite show to give Downy a try over Tide, but is the average dKos reader likely to think that Haliburton is A-OK because they put a feel-good ad up?

          The Chevron ad is great because it opens a dialogue about what is wrong with the company and with the industry.  Can any oil company be progressive or are they evil on the face of it?  I tend to think there are ways for an oil company (or any necessary industry) to be progressive, and I'd like to encourage any good behavior.

          BTW, I happen to work for one of the three big global marketing (advertising, pr, etc...) firms (Omnicom, IPG, WPP), but I won't say which.

          "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

          by nightsweat on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 11:42:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  no, that's not odd (0+ / 0-)

            it's more odd to assume the billions put in have no efficient purpose.

            •  They do have purpose (0+ / 0-)

              But their efficacy is falling.  And an ad poorly targeted might as well never exist.

              "When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008

              by nightsweat on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 01:40:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Isn't it perfectly targeted? (0+ / 0-)

                All good objections I think, but I just don't know for sure.  You see my problem is that I see advertising routinely working on me.  Advertising I hate.  I don't need to like it.  I just need to see it over and over again.  THat I think is the danger.

                Remember, it's all well and good for a company like Wallmart to post an ad here.  Buy our product.  Yay products!  But what is Chevron saying?  Buy our gas?  Buy our line on gas?  Gas is one of those commodities that depends more on complex relationships than it does on consumer preference.  Chevron, Texaco, Mobil? It's all gas, and you gas up where ever is closer or cheaper.  So then the question becomes... what are they really buying here?

                Influence, seems to me to be the only realistic answer.  And that is something that ought to be watched.

                People are ready to embrace all of mankind as a brother, but will not embrace their brother - Nikolai Gogol

                by HammClov on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 04:14:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  that might be true (0+ / 0-)

                I like to think so.

                But it's an arms race, I suppose there are ways to up the ante on the advertiser side still.

      •  Hah! (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        nightsweat, campskunk, txlosthorn

        Agreed. Come on, you'd have to be an idiot to waste money advertising to people that you KNOW hate your product. Ever see a hunting gear ad on Animal Planet? Please, if a corrupt company advertises on the Kos, the publicity they will generate among enraged diarists will teach them a lesson quickly. Let them spend their money wisely or foolishly - those who do not deserve our space will face the wrath of community. We don't need to attack Kos for taking their money.

        Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!

        by XStryker on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 11:29:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  like we hate oil (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          HammClov

          and never use it.

          it's not "attacking kos" to believe in the principle of "following the money".

          it's solid analysis to study the flow of money and derive some idea of influence as well.

        •  It's only your space so long as you fight for it (0+ / 0-)

          I'm just saying... it wouldn't be the first time a populist movement was co-opted by the fat cats.  It's extreme maybe, but I say, we will not take your dirty money!  Of course, then again, I'm not kos.  I don't know the financial pressures, burdens, etc.  His choice of course.  And I'll still be here, so long as the site remains as it is.  But I wouldn't want Kos to develop the same oil dependency that we all have.

          People are ready to embrace all of mankind as a brother, but will not embrace their brother - Nikolai Gogol

          by HammClov on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 04:17:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  While symathetic to your POV I agree with kos (4+ / 0-)

    These sites take money to host and money to run.

    I used to get mad at AAR for exactly the same reason, but then you know what?  I just started laughing.

    If Chevron, Walmart and whoever wants to waste their money on people who will never ever agree with them with some unobtrusive ad (which will actually incite more contempt for them), let them.

    In my town Tom Tancredo's campaign started advertising a lot on AAR.  The ad was deconstructed and vilified, and frankly, so insulting to anyone liberal that it probably backfired.

    If Chevron, or TC's campaign, or any of the above were to try to influence content anywhere, the quality of the site would degrade and people would leave and be free to start up someplace else.  

    Kos is still free to reject ads from anyone he wants, it's not a slippery slope.

    The opposite of war is not peace, it's creation - Jonathan Larson (-6.62, -6.26)

    by AndyS In Colorado on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 10:55:48 AM PDT

    •  Good arguments (0+ / 0-)

      I basically agree.  As I did with kos.  But principle is principle ... and fact is fact.  Principle is we don't take money from big oil.  Fact is we have to pay big bills.  Facts are also that we don't have to stay here.  Sure, I get all of that.  I do.  But I don't think a little discretion will financially destroy the site.  Not one of this size at anyrate.

      People are ready to embrace all of mankind as a brother, but will not embrace their brother - Nikolai Gogol

      by HammClov on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 04:20:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Chevron marketing to a liberal audience... (6+ / 0-)

    Means Chevron needing to frame itself in a liberal light.  Which means Chevron needing to make strategic decisons to appease a liberal political group.  Which might just mean better environmental policies in the long run.  I would much rather the netroots have a stake in these corporations than be ignored by them.

    I know DailyKos isn't big enough to affect Chevron's strategic decisions yet.  But we've established ourselves as opinion leaders.  Which means we've proven to be important to regulators.  And as the movement grows, that means businesses will have an incentive to become more important to us.  Which can be an enormous source of positive behavior if we're willing to demand it.

    I dunno.  I guess what you see as "co-opting" I see as  growing influence.  It's important to have the absolutist radicals who want to completely replace these corporations here, but it's also important to have people who are willing to flex their muscles and use their political capital to force these corpo's to actually make changes.  A new environmental or labor policy at a place like Chevron or Wal-Mart will do a lot more good than anything the US government can do.

    Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

    by ChicagoDem on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 10:57:20 AM PDT

    •  yeah ... I guess (0+ / 0-)

      Maybe I'm paranoid.  Maybe I'm a consipiracy theorist.  I just can't see that yet... we're a flyspeck to Chevron.  I don't honestly believe we even make them break a sweat.  Still ... dialogue is good.

      Obviously you're right.  They posted here for a reason.  What that reason is, to me,  a serious cause for concern.  I'd love to see a diary on that alone.

      People are ready to embrace all of mankind as a brother, but will not embrace their brother - Nikolai Gogol

      by HammClov on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 04:23:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So what the decision, Hammclov? (0+ / 0-)

    Are you going to subscribe?

    Founder of the Committee to Save asdf

    by droogie6655321 on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 11:21:09 AM PDT

    •  droogie (0+ / 0-)

      you could not miss the point farther.

      the debate on this issue is about FUNDING, where funding comes from.

      like... Greens getting money from Republicans.

      it's not about having to see ads, not in general.

      •  No, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Clem Yeobright

        I think you missed the point.

        I want a space to be free.  For me.  Personally.

        ... and the diarist can do that if s/he buys a subscription.

        Founder of the Committee to Save asdf

        by droogie6655321 on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 11:38:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm saying there is a big picture here (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          HammClov

          and it does not involve just not wanting to personally see ads.

          it's wanting there not to be a dependency.

        •  I might droogie (0+ / 0-)

          I might do it.  But pyrrho's point, is mine as well.  Putting blinders on is not, I hope, what we liberals do.  And if Kos is taking a ton of money from causes I don't like ... I want to know about it.  I guess, I don't mind seeing the advertising, so much as not knowing what their game is.

          People are ready to embrace all of mankind as a brother, but will not embrace their brother - Nikolai Gogol

          by HammClov on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 04:24:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  ok (0+ / 0-)

        are you willing to help defray the cost of maintaining and operating this site? Im not talkign about subscribition either.

        If anyone has  issues with the ads.. put your money where you mouth is. Lay down the serious cash to fund this site. If not, dont complain about Kos doing what it takes to keep this place afloat.

        •  what it takes (0+ / 0-)

          to have a progressive site requires Chevron money?

          it's the only type of ad.

          without that sort of ad it isn't profitable... we don't know that, but I guess I'll consider it if we ever have enough information to discuss that, but we don't.

          Kos has advocated defunding the Sierra Club, I'm hesitant to respond to implicit challenges like you just made... I can object to a source of funding without wanting to replace it.

          DailyKos is against, basically, Greens taking Republican money, does that mean it should be willing to replace that money?

          People that buy subscriptions to help dkos be free from obligation to advertisers... they have given money but it did not stop the Chevron ad or any other, there is no policy implying it will result in that, quite the oppostie, kos has a policy implying they will be accepted and not defrayed.

          He'll just maintani a bigger corps of "activists"... with not a clear description of what they will be activist about.

          •  Exactly (0+ / 0-)

            I might give money to kos.  But that's not the point at all.  That it's kos site, I'll not argue.  But I have a stake in it, so long as I pay, or contribute.  If I pull up roots and out, I pull up roots.  I'm putting my mouth where your ears are and sharing my opinion.  FOr the moment, I'll keep my money.

            People are ready to embrace all of mankind as a brother, but will not embrace their brother - Nikolai Gogol

            by HammClov on Tue Nov 14, 2006 at 04:28:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

Permalink | 38 comments