Daily Kos

The South and the Black experience

Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:16:06 PM PDT

I grew up on the North Carolina-Virginia border. Where I lived we had two schools, one private for the white kids who didn't want to be around blacks after Jim Crow failed under the courts, and one school that was public with everyone else. I lived in the South until the late 90s. Variously having lived in multiple parts of Virginia, North Carolina, Texas and having visited places like TN and GA.

I want to get into this debate about what strategy the Democratic Party should consider taking as someone who has lived down South, and understands the contours of the debate. I think I understand this better than some who may not be from the region in question, but also because I have lived in California and New York. I know many of these regions.

Let's deal with one issue of the South- it is culturally conservative. That reality more than anything has shaped national policy in perverse ways that we can't even begin to fully see. We've been in the thick of it almost 150 years. 150 years. Even before Nixon's Southern Strategy, there were the Dixicrats, Jim Crow and other forces which controlled the national landscape for both parties.

On the local level, I saw this with my first job as a bagger in a supermarket wherein I had more than one run in with race. I remember to this day one man saying to me "nigger, get my bags." Being poor, on a level that I don't think most American imagine, as in no running water poor, no car, Katrina poor, I did what he said and carried the bags to his car.

Before you conclude how horrible the South is based on race, you should realize that I have faced racial incidents in other parts of the country. In liberal Hollywood, I had one executive tell me that "You aren't applying to a minority internship" when I came in for a job interview (no where did I indicate I was looking for a hand out, but he was the face of polite racism.). Just last week, I dealt with the continuing difficulties of NY cabbies who race by me to pick up the white passenger assuming that he or she will pay, but that I will not (the face of indifferent racism).

However, I digress. There are no easy stereotypes about the South that will help. The truth is the South can not be the primary focus of national politics not simply because of our not being dependent as party on the South, but also because in the long run, it is better for blacks and progressives down South if the Party is not dependent on the Southern white vote to enact policies that will benefit us all (including Southern whites). We can't wait for them to see the value of these policies. We have been waiting 150 years.  

So long as we are depend on the South, in the form of a specific variant of the South, and the white evangelical vote down there, we can't enact policies that will help the very people that we want to help most.

There are a lot of narratives that persist in hurting Southerners, and the US in general. Narratives about the South as persecuted even while it seeks to dominate national politics through cultural conservatism. Narratives about idealogy even as we are really talking about strategy. Narratives about Democrats as weak flip floppers willing to do anything, and about Republicans who need to return to their core values (which apparently  can only mean Southern conservatism, not Western, not northern, not Southwestern). Where is the rest of the country in this self absorption? Even narratives about what is reasonable (a black guy running down South) and pragmatic (a black guy talking about denying the rights of citizens of another state), what is pragmatic and unpragmatic?

One of the reasons why the Democrats need to solidify its position, and go with a strategy not solely focused on the South is that in the long wrong its more beneficial to the South. These distractions from the really big concerns like globalization on the national scene are produced by the distortion of being dependent rather than interdependent on the South. By overweighting the South, we overweight the influence of manipulations of the idealogy by a minority, but determined, and cynical portion of the GOP leadership (a la Karl Rove, and as pointed out in the book by Kuo). If we don't change strategies, this allows this concentration of power in a minority of the American electorate to continue.

The notion that the Democrats are doing Southern blacks any favors by propetuating the present strategies for winning down South is flawed. Katrina didn't happen in a vacuum. It happened because of the mentality that thrives in all America, but it is all too pervasive in a region I still consider my home. I miss it at times because despite what I have to say here, there are things I don't think I can find anywhere else that are great about my home.

It reflects a reality of Southern black poverty that I knew first hand. The tax law for education in Alabama didn't happen in 2004 in a vaccuum. Macaca, which didn't work because of NoVA, in Virginia didn't happen in a vacuum. The Southern Strategy didn't fail. It worked extremely well for decades. Megachurches don't exist in a vacuum. Bob Jones University. The Christian Coalition. The dragging of that black man in Texas.  There is a history to this. They didn't happen in a vacuum.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It means as Kos has said that there is a difference between want and need. I want my home to be a part of the process for renewal in America. I don't think the rest of America should have to need the South to catch up before begining the process.

If we can become the city on the hill, perhaps the other regions will provide guidance to the South. Certainly, the South, as per Harold Ford about gay marriage in NJ, has no problem about telling others what to do. So it shouldn't be so hostile, as I see some people here are, to discussion of how to do things better so long as those things ae proven to be better.

Right now, we have an opportunity. New voices like Tester in MT, and Webb (who I wanted to win more than anything because he is a new voice for the outer South) can lead the way.

The South consistently underperforms the rest of the country in a lot of important indicators such as education. I have seen people try to dispute this here. I can't take you seriously. I grew up down there. I know that my hometown for example had an unemployment rate of 10 percent for African Americans. 10 percent. They aren't lazy. There aren't any jobs. Those jobs, as Webb has said, are slowly dying. The middle class is being squeezed. And yet, what is the middle class in the South worried about- gay marriage, terrorism (that happened incidentally in the NE, not the South), etc. Don't get me wrong, terrorism is important, but something is out of whack if the NE can see beyond it long enough to vote on other issues as well as that issue.

If the goal of conservative, moderate and liberal Democrats on the economic issues are the same, if we generally agree with the contours on the social issues, if not the details- then it must be understood by the moderates (of which I consider myself one) and conservatives that branding liberal and Democrat as bad leads to a perverse result in which the economic goals we claim we want to achieve aren't achievable because of the bad branding on us all.

This is all going back to an idea that I said in 2004, but it's important to remember. Southern cultural conservatism hurts Southerners as much as it hurts everyone else.  Focusing our resources on one strategy of retaining power in the South versus treating the South as among equal with other regions is a mistake. It's not going to help any black people don't South in places like NOLA to keep the GOP in charge. That's what this is about for me outside of all the pride I see here which seems to be mixed in with the discussion. Set aside your pride, and consider what people are saying versus what you think they are saying. Southern pride isn't always a good thing.

Tags: African Americans, politics, 50 state strategy, South, North, Northeast, West, Rescued (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 133 comments

  •  it's not southern pride that motivates me (9+ / 0-)

    it's the fact that we can win in the south with the right package and some hard work (see also webb).  i kind of agree with you.  but on the other hand, nobody in the south is asking to be the primary focus.  that's the crux of the problem: one region shouldn't have precedence over any of the others.  we need to run strong in every state.  that's all i've ever asked for.  

    too many people are willing to write off the south as undisputed republican territory.  i can't stand that.  don't treat us better than you would the other parts of the world, but don't write us off as unsalvageable.  there's a tendency to gleefully dismiss southern states as right-wing backwaters, but name for me one campaign other than this year when the national party gave a southern democrat any real help.  this is why howard dean's work is so important; we can compete everywhere, we just have to try.

    sometimes when you look in his eyes you get the feeling that someone else is driving. - letterman (-8.00, -7.18)

    by liberalsouth on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:26:57 PM PDT

    •  Actually (23+ / 0-)

      the response to Kos's perfectly reasonable statement was along the lines about which I complain- the notiont that the South is more important than any other region. All the non Southern strategy is saying is no- that's not true. All the regions of America are important. The 50 state stratetgy shouldn't be perverted into being a neo south strategy where by we once again fixate on just the south.

      •  that i agree with (8+ / 0-)

        a neo-southern strategy would be an awful idea for so many reasons.  that's where i part ways with the steve jardings of the world.  all i've ever wanted is a little more effort from the national folks to help us get started.

        i get really sensitive about this stuff, because sometimes it's extremely hard to communicate that there are rudimentary liberal enclaves in the deep south that, with a little more love from the 50-state strategy, could really flourish into some great takeaways.  for instance, i'm from mobile, AL, and that town is just ripe for the taking for a house pickup, if we'd develop a good candidate.  for my whole life, we've only run token opposition in that slot, and if we got a powerhouse candidate, we'd be unstoppable.  i just feel like people aren't even willing to give us token consideration, and that makes me mad.

        sometimes when you look in his eyes you get the feeling that someone else is driving. - letterman (-8.00, -7.18)

        by liberalsouth on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:45:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you have had 150 years of effort (5+ / 0-)

          like I said- there isn't a vacuum here. and no one is talking about igoring legitimate pick ups. frankly, i dont feel many of you read any of either kos's post or what multiple others have said b/c the responses bare little connection to what is said, and even here you engage me as though i said abandon when I said not primary focus- two very different concepts. i went back to re-read the thread in Kos's dariy. I keep reading posts like "you can't abandon the south." you are bashing the south. you hate the south, etc. all this over the top shit that bares nothing to do with what kos or the book about the south says. instead its all about dont abandon the south. kos doesn't once say that. that's the mentality of persecution I refer to, as well as the notion that you are owed. no region is owed anything other than what it produces.

          •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            dotcommodity, sajeffe, red bed head

            i read that post, and i commented there as well.  i don't blame kos himself, or you, or people who are willing to talk about this thoughtfully for anything.  in fact, as i said earlier, i mostly agree with you.  i think you're misunderstanding me.  there is a large contingent of people both here and in the liberal blogosphere as a whole who think the south is a worthless backwater.  that's what i have a problem with.  i'll say it again: i'm not arguing with you.  i'm expressing a long-held frustration that's plagued me for my entire politically-sentient life.  that's all.

            sometimes when you look in his eyes you get the feeling that someone else is driving. - letterman (-8.00, -7.18)

            by liberalsouth on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 02:05:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  With all due respect (5+ / 0-)

              There are now over ten comments to this diary. Not one of them comes even close to suggesting that "the south is a worthless backwater."  Indeed, it appears to me that we all agree that the party needs to strengthen it's party-building efforts among its natural allies and strongest supporters -- African Americans and white progressives.  One of the biggest obstacles to this is the defensive posture that so many southerners seem to take.  Suggesting a change in approach, strategy or emphasis is often misinterpreted by many southerners as a provincial attack. This attitude makes it extremely difficult to thoughtfully examine, critique and promote change.

              •  provincial attacks (0+ / 0-)

                Are all too easy to find on Dkos.  

                I guarantee you that I can find 10 mindnumbingly stupid comments that fall into the category of "provincial attack" for every thoughtful diary or comment on the subject.  And even you fall into the trap of framing those southerners who may disagree with you as engaging in defensive posturing.

                A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 05:19:34 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  you fall into the trap (0+ / 0-)

                  of telling us about what a few posters on some diaries do versus what we are talking about- what the policy of the party should  be- which is the discussion at hand.

                  •  no (0+ / 0-)

                    I think you'll see I'm on topic both in this comment and in the diary. This is the second time you've responded, on someone else's behalf, to a comment that wasn't directed at you.  

                    I am familiar with the "Reply to this" function, and my comments are directed at a specific point raised by the relevant dkos user.  Again, try to lighten up on the trigger.  

                    A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                    by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 06:42:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  class vs race (3+ / 0-)

            There was a article I read when small about a reporter who interviewed members of the Klan. He said of one place, that the only decent thing in the house was the robe.

            Poor and working Southern whites have been smacking themselves in the face relentlessly in order to assure that blacks are also harmed.

            Progressive economic policies, well communicated, are certainly worthy in and of themselves. But I hope, and even believe, progressive economic policies can also help to overcome the racial divide.

            I cannot think about race in America or the South without thinking about the drug war. The stats say that one out of three young black men is in prison, on probation or parole. That is about trauma, destruction of community, and control. Imagine that  1/3 of the men in your family had been imprisoned with the corresponding risk of brutalization, and loss of the right to vote.

            In order to address the South and race in a meaningful manner we have to talk about the (race) drug war.

            Every region and every group is owed the same thing:  a chance at dignity, and a hand when needed. The description of the South above, and esp of NOLA, is a description of a place in need. Investing in national education might be a good start, real investment, not made-for-looting laws that pay for N Bush's software.

        •  ps (7+ / 0-)

          we are talking here not about abandoning the south, but abandoning particular messaging. ie, appeal to the west and ne etc, and continue to give resources to the south to try to entice the south with that messaging -- ie economic populism, moderate social values etc. you , I think, are referencing resources

          •  Don't go west - go everywhere (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            redwagon
            Don't appeal to the west, its just the same mistake in a different location. And when it happens, it'll be some DC Dems telling you what will appeal to the West even if westerners are jumping up and down saying thats not it.

            Instead, appeal to ALL Americans. It isn't appealing to the southerners that has failed to win the south, it's, among other things, failing to have a message outside of what seems to be Repub appeals rewrapped in Dem clothing. Or when a Dem deviates from a Repub position they have to apologize or justify it. It's giving the impression that Dems don't know what or who they are outside of not being Repubs. It comes down to the devil you know instead of the devil who seems to have a stance but insists on explaining it to you for 15 minutes until you're too confused to know what they hell they're saying.

            A good appeal, a good stance on an issue, a good economic plan, a fair deal for all Americans can appeal to all Americans (excluding crazy wingnuts we'd never get anyway).

            When you recommend a crappy diary, the terrorists win.

            by Step Beyond on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 09:28:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  where do I say just the west? (0+ / 0-)

              the point of this diary is "not South only" The point is in messaging to not focus on a messaging that will appeal to only Southern votes- ie, cultural conservatism, but instead focus on concepts that are appealing to people outside of the South as well, including the west, which I used as an example, but only an example because it is conservative, but not conservative like the South (often times in these discussions the argument is "but the South is conservative" as if it is the only way to be conservative, and that's not true is the point). There are a lot of different ways a libral can message their arguments to appeal to a broad swath of voters that aren't being tried becase of the southern fixation on messaging.

        •  Decatur Alabama (5+ / 0-)

          I recently moved from Tuscaloosa, Alabama to Decatur, Alabama (and one of the first things I did was re-register to vote).  I consider myself living in a "red" state and feel my vote is in vain (though I cast it anyway).  What strikes me is how many positions on the ballot for various offices said, "no Democrat candidate."  And it doesn't help that our last Dem Governor was recently indicted.

          No, don't treat the South as must-win, but yeah, at least give us some candidates!  We're here -- the Dems are here.  Give the candidates we do have at least a little piece of the pie.  We are part of the 50 states.  I was soooooooooooo hoping Harold Ford, Jr. would win.

          I'll share my election day experience -- there were only white people at my voting location.  (I'm a white woman originally from Ohio.)  There was a black man outside handing out sample ballots.  I asked him if there had been any black folks voting.  He was surprised by and appreciative of the question and said yes, there had been black voters there earlier.  He said he hoped I voted "for our side."  The fact that he introducted himself as Reverend, I was curious about his "side" so I asked.  When he said Democrat, I shook his hand again and he went on to tell me of the local Dem organization (being new in town, I wasn't up on it).  There is hope here in the South.

          Don't assume I'm stupid just because I'm poor.

          by sajeffe on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 09:55:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Best diary ever! (15+ / 0-)

    Thank you for saying what needed to be said. Your thoughtful diary really expresses my frustrations with the Democratic party's southern strategy.  Instead of supporting the socially conservative wing of the party as it has been doing for too long, the party should be nuturing what is, I believe, the backbone of the southern Democratic Party -- the African American community that fought for civil rights in the face of all sorts of unimagineable opposition.  

    •  yes (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Bensdad, AllisonInSeattle

      The problem though is so many of the black folks here are religious and vote Republican these days.  We need to educate everyone in the South -- that Republicans don't own religion.  If they haven't converted to the republican party, why aren't the civil rights blacks turning out to vote?

      Don't assume I'm stupid just because I'm poor.

      by sajeffe on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:02:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry if I missed your point but... (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        AllisonInSeattle, TomP

        I'm not sure if it is true that "so many" black voters pull the lever for Republicans.  I haven't seen how the recent election numbers ended up, but an AP Black Voices poll taken prior to last week's election indicated that only 9% of black voters intended to vote for a Republican congressional candidates. That doesn't sound like many to me.  

  •  Excellent diary. (13+ / 0-)

    Thanks for your perspective.  

    Dems need to stop chasing redneck votes and start building a true progresisve party in the South, which means an African American base.  

    The cultural conservatism and militarism makes it a difficult region for Dems.  While I believe in the 50 state plan and don't want to give up on the South, I also do not want to change our beliefs to get southern votes.  

    If what we really believe cannot win in the South (a consensus of progressive economic and social beliefs), then we must change the South and not our beliefs.  Some may disagree, and I do not disparage their position, but that's just how I feel.

    We win when we are who we really are, in more ways than just electoral victories.  

    "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

    by TomP on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 01:35:41 PM PDT

    •  Do you believe (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      red bed head
      in fiscal responsibility, accountability of government officials and actions, lower taxes for wage earning middle class families, the restoration in the Bill of Rights, and that Bush should be ejected from office?

      If you do, which I could have sworn were part of the Democratic campaign promises, then southern votes are yours for the taking.

      Above all else, this is what disenchanted southerners want. It appeared during the campaign that Dems would provide these things if elected. Are you now trying to say that to provide these things would be to alter your beliefs simply because southern votes would follow?

      •  That's not at all what I was saying. (0+ / 0-)

        The South primarily is Republican territory now.  It's not clear at all that a call that "Bush should be ejected from office" would be popular in the South.  

        Economic populism, i.e., higher taxes on the wealthy and soem kind of plan to help unions and workers in this counrty, soemtiems has been popular in teh South, and soemtimes not.  Often conservative demonization of minorities, be it African Americans, gays, Hispanics, have won out.  It is both culturally and economically conservative (although there is some economic populism, historically it focused mostly on the needs of one race.  That is breaking down a bit and provides some hope).

        These obviously are overgeneralizations, but they reflect some realities.  For years, some have argued that Dems must move to the right to get southern male voters, Nascar Dads.  That is what I am opposed to.  

        I believe in economic and social justice. I am not a purist and understand the need to compromise sometimes, but I disagree that we should compromise our fundamental beliefs.  Often it is suggested that we must change our beliefs to get southern votes.  

        I would say to you that, if a southern majority really believes the things you articulted, which are to the right of my beliefs, but generally acceptable to me, why do they continue to vote Republican?      

         

        "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

        by TomP on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 07:12:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re: Southern votes (0+ / 0-)

          You say the south is primarily Republican territory now, and I as a lifelong southerner say the south is  comprised of voters both loyal to, disillusioned with and betrayed by the republicans. The formula to pick off those who are disillusioned and betrayed is to give them the parts of the Democratic agenda that they want, that they wanted from republicans and didn't get, to prove to them that they should be voting for Dems instead of republicans. Those things that both democrats and republicans agree on, you know, the common ground between the two: fiscal responsibility in government to trim the pork and get spending under control without raising taxes on the voters, the prosecution of corruption in government, no matter where it resides, a restoration of the Bill of Rights, and to throw the  imposter Bush out of office.

          These are the things disenchanted southerners want. Loyal republicans could care less whether you provide these things, but the disenchanted republicans are yours for the taking if you do this things in a way that makes them feel their priorities are finally getting some attention from Congress.

          The reason some of these disillusioned voters continue to vote for Republicans is because Democrats include other things in their agenda that are anathemas to them, such as big government programs like universal healthcare and amnesty for illegals.

          If the Dems would actually seek out those things that make up the universal common ground, and deliver on them fairly quickly, then they've successfully shorn up a sizeable chunk of voters in an otherwise impenetrable base.

          IF Dems go after their own pet projects, the ones  that conservatives detest, without first gaining their trust by giving them something that both sides want, then the Dems seal their fate of being locked on the outside of an electorate that was wide open from betrayal and corruption from their own party.

          I would recommend that you spend a few days lurking on some smaller political blogs in the south and listen to what they're saying. You'll see the things they want and didn't get from the GOP, things that you're quite comfortable delivering. You'll also discover many reasons why they still want the imposter Bush out of office. Contrary to what you may believe about them, they still believe in justice.

          If you're wise, you'll capitalize on their disenchantment to give them what the GOP promised but failed to deliver.

          •  Interesting and well articulated comments. (0+ / 0-)

            Perhaps the answer is for Southern Democrats to run on the issues you describe.  It is when folks suggest that Dems who are not from the South should change their beliefs/behavior/policies/votes in Congress, etc. in order to get southern votes that I disagree.

            But there is absolutely no reason that Southern Democrats cannot run candidates on the platform you suggest.  

            "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

            by TomP on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 11:41:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, not campaigning, real action (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Hens Teeth
              No, the rhetoric and promises alone will not gain their trust. They need to see action, something actually delivered by the Dems in order to trust them.

              And I'm not talking about token policies tossed out on our common interests, I'm talking a serious accomplishment in Congress by the Democrats to prove to those disenchanted republicans everywhere in the country that the Democrats will actually act on and take into consideration their important issues.

              On these blogs I refer you to, you will also see a desire to bat down the raging fringe lunatics who are extremely vocal about gay marriage and abortion and nothing of substance. Don't listen to them, and don't let them sidetrack you, they're irrelevant to the concerns of everyday joe blow voters. You'll see that on these blogs.

              •  To the extent, (0+ / 0-)

                "their important issues," are the same as most other folks in otehr regions of the country, then they will be happy with what the Dem Congress does.  Hopefully forcing an end to the war in Iraq, rasing the minimum wage, strengthening unions.    

                If some southern voters have some special agenda not shared by the many in the rest of the country, then they may not be satisfied.  Time will tell.

                Interesting conversation.  In the end, I think we are broadly on the same side.

                "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

                by TomP on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 12:02:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well if that's the agenda for the next two years (0+ / 0-)

                  then consider the south an impenetrable base for Democrats in the foreseeable future.
                  •  what agenda do they ahve other (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    sja, TomP

                    than the economics issues? if you are talking about the cultural conservatism that's not going to happen, and it shouldn't. they should not get a veto power over what the rest of the country wants. no region should have that power. it's not fair to everyone else. if you are talking aobut economic issues, and good government- then i dont see how what the other poster listed can not be seen as good for the South.

                    •  Yes, I agree. (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      sja

                      In the end, it comes down to what you said in the diary.  Some southerners want us to change our beliefs and policies to chase after southern white voters.  I'm just not willing to do it.  If the policies we support are good for the entire country, eventually they will come our way.  

                      Bluntly put, the South is not that imporant if the rest of the nation wants our policies.  They don't get a veto.

                      "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

                      by TomP on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 12:15:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You promised (0+ / 0-)

                        I heard promises from Dems to check federal spending and get control of the budget without raising taxes, and to restore the bill of rights, and to prosecute corruption wherever it resides, and to throw Bush out of office.

                        Apparently these were lies.

                        •  uhm (0+ / 0-)

                          ok- right. thanks for making this easier for me to register who you are.

                        •  I don't understand your (0+ / 0-)

                          point.  How can refusing a veto on policy to southern whites (who probably voted for Republicans) be translated into lying about cleaing up corruption?  Vote out Republicans and that will clean up corruption.

                          And who campaigned on throwing Bush out of office?  That takes impeachment and with 49 Republican Senators, it would be impossible to get a 2/3 majority.  

                          In any event, since the South is so dominated by Republicans, I don't know that Dems elected in other regions owe southern white (mostly Repubublican) voters much.  

                          Did you vote for a Democrat?  Did he or she win? If so, bring your issues to them.  

                          "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

                          by TomP on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 12:42:27 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Those are all fine and dandy (0+ / 0-)

                      But as a first priority for Dems they're the shutout for those voters disappointed with the GOP failures.
          •  but (0+ / 0-)

            to get to those things- the point is should we have to wait for them to come around- perhapst he point of pursuing a non southern only strategy is to do exactly that - achieve the goals first to start proving that it can be done, so that they can see for themselves versus trying to pander to them over what we think they want versus what they really want. I see the problem not whether we are considering their needs, but how we reach them. there is more than one way to skin a cat. maybe the short term is to focus on a national coaltion and as we build bring more southerners into the mix (wihthe locals being given enough resources to build there as well). that'st he whole point- rather than targetting a message at the theocon white vote which will never be ours- we need to focus on broader appealing themes and actual start to get those done, and add people in when they realize its a good idea versus trying to 'trick' them by saying we are something we are not.

    •  well said (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      TomP

      nice post!

      Don't assume I'm stupid just because I'm poor.

      by sajeffe on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:03:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That Place - - (6+ / 0-)

    Wasn't Oxford was it?
    Have you read Blood Done Sign My Name?

    Great diary!  Thanks for the nuance that is often missing when people post about "The South" or "Black People" or "White People" - - Speaking of nuance - McLaurin's Separate Pasts really covers the little things that people outside of the South would never see.  But, he grew up a generation or more before you.

    A Story - - My Mom was from Alabama and my Dad from Connecticut.  In the early 1960s when we were up there - all the neighbors descended on Mom telling her how horrible things were in Alabama.  Five years later they were all talking about how the Puerto Ricans were ruining Stamford.  My Mom pulled a "Well, well, well, well - - " on them.  I was just a kid - but I had to laugh.

    Again - - thank you.

  •  Great diary (8+ / 0-)

    The national Dems owe it to our most loyal constituents, Southern African Americans, to promote candidates and coalitions that put their concerns first. That means not supporting Democratic conservatives who might pick off a Rep or two, but supporting African American candidates and white liberals who are willing to pitch their case across the racial divide. In the future, it will also mean helping get the growing Latino immigrant population into the mix with dignity and respect.

    None of this will work immediately, but it is right and it is investment in the long term. Fortunately, this cycle has proved Dems can win a national majority without inroads in the deep South, yet.

    Tough stuff. Can we do it?

    •  thanks for a good post (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      HillaryGuy

      My best friend is a 75 year-old liberal white woman.  She and her liberal husband are both from the north but they've been in Alabama for 50 years and have seen it all (professors at Alabama).  My friend has long been frustrated by the seeming lack of black vote.  She's told me time and again that if the poor blacks would vote, Dems would win.  And, please don't accuse me or my friend of stereotyping -- I live here -- yes, there are a lot of poor black folks.  There are also a lot of poor white folks but I would focus less on them because I'm afraid they would vote Repub.  Of course, I'm a poor white Dem!

      Don't assume I'm stupid just because I'm poor.

      by sajeffe on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:12:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Interesting diary. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle, TomP

    Thank you for the analysis.

  •  i know its hard (3+ / 0-)

    I live in the south,
    but you know there are excellent pockets of great diversity. have you ever visited some of the creole communities in LA?

    by the way, we could really use your experience at our new site, please contact me if you are interested.

    southerndems.com we need you!

    by graduate student on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 05:27:14 PM PDT

  •  In the GA governor's race.... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle, eaglecries

    Sonny Perdue won it in the Democratic Primary.   Mark Taylor and Cathy Cox, the two Democrats, destroyed each other.   Either one of them could have won the election, if not for their behavior in the Primary.

    I am so angry that they could not resolve which one would run without wasting precious resources and good will fighting each other.

    The Dream Ticket can win the General Election

    by Pink Lady on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 08:27:14 PM PDT

  •  Great diary (0+ / 0-)

    Sorry I missed the discussion.

    •  Tell it to Jerome (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle

      please.

      •  who is Jerome? (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        TruthOfAngels
        •  Armstrong (0+ / 0-)

          MYDD. You didn't see his awful piece?

          •  yeah (10+ / 0-)

            I have argued with him in the past, but I sense he would prefer I go away. He tried to defend Ford to me under the theory of politically expediency, and I pointed out to him that by his pragmatic logic, we should never run a black man down South because afterall that too is politically expedient. The best candidate by his logic for TN is actually a white Southern evanglical man who tacks with an inch of the GOP candidate to the left. To which he responded, I was running as a one issue voter. He said that because of the gay marriage thing by Ford, but that was bullshit because I had greater issues of how strategic or pragmatic it was to continue to run Ford type candidates down South versus a Webb type candidate.

            Too his comment, I responded, that's a joke because I have never voted one issue (whether it's race, sexuality, economics) in my life, and if that were true then why did I send my hard earned money to Webb, Tester and McKaskill or spend my time volunteering for them. I know I am just a foot soldier, but I found the comment insulting because I feel like I am trying to be nuianced versus the normal South v Non South claptrap I read.

            I got no reply after that from him, but got a lot of noise from others about my being one issue with not much to back it up. People, I believe, get vested in candidates (if you listen to the Ford people he can walk on water and saved the party) or positions (ie, there is nothing wrong with focusing on the South, or the insulting one I love to hear "the south is conservative" like that responds to whether strategically people are running smart races or whether it answers should the party focus solely on the South). Although I am a guilty of that as anyone, here, his position was simply wrong. We can't win the South by out rednecking the redneck factor. I felt Ford was trying to do that, and I wondered how that would impact the moderate vote that votes more on personality.

            As the  auhtor of the book that people are putting down has said, if it were true that all one had to do is run the right candidate, then please explain why Southern white evangelicals who are poor or middle class consistently vote 70 to 85 percent GOP when they go to the same jobs, schools, etc as black evangelicals down South who vote Democratic.

            If someone can give a reason outside of race, he said he would be happy to change his mind about running a strategy that is not solely focused on the South. It's perverse how much of our national discussion is really a discussion about how to "respect" the South. I never hear anyone saying how we should respect MT or CO or AZ in these discussions. It's a South only discussion. No one could ever claim that the states I just mention are NE libral, and yet, they might as well be, when it comes to the discussion presently on the table regarding how to speak to voters.  Until the other day, I hadn't thought about it really, but this is truly amazing how slant our national discourse is toward my home region. I can normally tell my friends what conversation politically is really going on even when it's not apparent to them. I predicted Trent Lott to them.

            I have sensed when challenged with factual assertions to combat the faux indignation about a different strategy than a South-only strategy, the response by the proponents (although they don't consider themselves that) of the pro South only strategy is that of either silence, labeling one anti South or some other such b.s. It's easier to say that than deal with the really difficult question of whether or not a South only strategy works.

            My thing is that if we stay with the status quo, that's a South only strategy. If we stay with arguments by people like Walis, that's a South only strategy. The status quo to me isn't ultimately good for either Southern blacks or progressives, and it's not good for the rest of the country. We have to take a risk at breaking the cycle that produces the same results.

            •  Faux Indignation! (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              AllisonInSeattle

              Gotta love it.

              Agree with everything you say about Ford, about strategy, and about Southern Dem defensiveness.  One regular Kossack said that both Southern and Western states had a minority of Dems in their congressional delegations.  When I tallied them up for both regions and showed that the West had a clear majority while the South did not - not even close - - I got zero reply.  As with Jerome - when facts fail - personal put-downs follow.

              •  When ever thing (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                AllisonInSeattle, HillaryGuy

                is bashing,t hen nothing is. With Ford someone put up a diary questioning whether it was a good idea that Ford had confronted Corker- I think at a supermarket or something- and the response back was to question the tactic was "bashing." After that incident, I knew that campaign and his supporters were off the rail. I had the same feeling about Lamont when his supporters were engaging in wishful thinking about what the polls meant. My motto is to not ignore, pardon the pun, inconvenient truths.

                •  I'm Still Toasted - (2+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  AllisonInSeattle, HillaryGuy

                  From all the flames I got suggesting that Lamont actually might be behind and that the Q Poll - which surveyed an entire range of voter attitudes - might have something after three months of 40% showing by Lamont.  When Kos talked about Lott retiring and there being a possible Dem senate pick-up in Mississippi I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.  The last Dem to win a senate race in Mississippi was in 1982 and that was John Stennis.  I mean, I think it's great to be optimistic, but there is a limit beyond which it gets into the "smoking some serious shit" category.  

                  I guess I'm just a one-issue basher who hates the South.

                  •  Yeah, I know. (3+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    johnnygunn, AllisonInSeattle, TomP

                    People get on me about hating the South.  I was born there and have been there many times (raised in Arizona, though).

                    The reality is it takes generations to change even a five percent swing of the electorate.  In states like Mississippi and South Carolina, we lose them by THIRTY points!  And fielding a candidate to win them means giving up WAY WAY too many of our principles.

                    The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

                    by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:15:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sadly (5+ / 0-)

                      there are more than a few willing to sell their principles down the river. I don't mean principles like- well you want a 39.6 tax bracket, and I want 41.2 so let's split the difference, I mean hardcore, is this going to be a democracy or not type compromise. Mills (I believe it was him) had it right- the true enemy of democracy is comfort. When I looked at what the peo in 2004 I believe were willing to do in the Ukraine for their democratic principles, I felt they shamed us.

                      •  Re: Ukraine (0+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        Owl of Minerva

                        Did you know we (USA) were spending money there? IIRC, both Republican and Democratic Parties, AND the USA gov't. How about that?

                        We had operatives there on the ground for a year or two before the election... and were building on the same ground operation we'd funded in a couple other Eastern European countries. Maybe another one of the 'Stans, too.

                        You heard about that in the MSM, right? Sigh. If not, google, it's out there.

                        Maybe Chavez would field some operatives here to help us? Geez knows we're funding enough in his country.

                        Be good to each other. It matters.

                        by AllisonInSeattle on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 11:59:03 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I dont know enough to comment (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          AllisonInSeattle

                          which is why I didn't respond back immediately, I thought aobut it, and decided that overall all of what you say maybe true, but that they were able to achieve anyhow- having a true democratic election is impressive to me.

                          •  It's all enough to make one's head spin (0+ / 0-)

                            I was ecstatically following the Ukraine till I read the USA had had a hand in it. Sheesh.

                            AFA here -- I still think your points in the diary are brilliant. Its' like any other dysfunctional relationsihp -- don't chase after someone who's rejecting you to the exclusion of other things in your life.   :-)    Or not, if you don't like that analogy!  

                            Be good to each other. It matters.

                            by AllisonInSeattle on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 02:49:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                      Analyzing "the south" as if it were a singularity is not very helpful.  Harold Ford ran in Tennessee, not the South, and he did not lose by 30 points.  Many Democrats ran and won in states and localities all over the south.  

                      And while most of them, I am certain, don't share your views on every point of policy, your principles remain intact despite their winning.  

                      A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                      by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 06:17:01 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  You're wrong about Mississippi (0+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    AllisonInSeattle

                    If Lott had retired, that would have been a competitive race. There were several possibilities. One was Mike Moore, who was Attorney General, and took on the first lawsuit against the tobacco companies. Everyone said he was crazy - like a fox. He is beloved in Mississippi - and liberal. If he ran, he would have won - no question.

                    African Americans + white liberals + new emerging latinos = victory for progressive Dems in Mississippi/

                    •  Hmmm - (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      AllisonInSeattle, TomP

                      Trent Lott got 64% of the vote this year.  He won in 2000 with 66%. Thad Cochran didn't even have a Dem opponent in 2002.  He ended up beating the Reform candidate with 84% of the vote.  I remain skeptical.

                      •  PS - Governor's Race in 2003 (2+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        AllisonInSeattle, TomP

                        The campaign between Ronnie Musgrove and Haley Barbour is, perhaps, more illustrative.  Barbour fits the classic Southern Republican racist mold - in fact his "coon" comments are in the record.  Musgrove, on the other hand, had the audacity to suggest that the Mississippi state flag remove the Confederate "Stars and Bars".  And since Mississippi has its gubernatorial races in off-off years, there weren't any coattails for anybody.  It wasn't a landslide, but it wasn't close either.  Barbour defeated the INCUMBENT governor 53% to 46%.  Had it have been an open governor's race the margin would have probably been larger.

                •  your line about (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  AllisonInSeattle

                  the Democrats shouldn't try to outredneck the rednecks was brilliant.  I can't stand Ford.  He was craven and very very transparent with his ass-kissing down there.  10 commandments on the back of his cards?  WTF?  Is he Jewish?  Aren't the ten commandments Old Testament?

                  I was red-faced with embarrassment how bad Ford looked and how anyone could tell he was sucking up.  It was awful.  I mean, c'mon, if the ten fucking commandments are what will swing your vote to a Democrat, then perhaps, perhaps that voters ain't worth groveling after because we had to sacrifice too much to get him.

                  I am gay and I have argued that as long as we've got the senate anyway, I was hoping and was glad when Ford lost.  For many different reasons, I believe that Ford could have done gays more harm being within our caucus with a blue face attached to his viewpoints, then if he had lost.

                  Shuttin up about gay marriage would have been just fine and would have been good enough.  But, I am sorry, I am NOT going to send money to some son of a bitch who uses me to score cheap political points with fucking hillbillies.  THAT'S where I draw the line.  I sent money to Webb, and being silent on gays worked well enough for him.  And Webb carried some SW Virginia counties that are just as redneck as any in Tennessee.

                  The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

                  by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:08:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I am like you (6+ / 0-)

                    I don't expect every candidate to carry the water up the hill for me, but I don't want them pissing on my leg and telling me its sunshine either.

                    But, for me, the issue primarily with Ford was that I thought his tactics may have hurt him in the middle. He didn't seem to lose the liberal vote. He wasn't going to get the hardcore wingnut vote. So, what happened from the time that he had a lead to when he started to lose it?

                    He came across as you said, and I believe its what really hurt him, as something of an ass to voters. One of his supporters on another diary actually said his wife (when this person decided to let hid guard down) voted for Ford, but felt that Ford, the candidate, had been too slick and too abrasive. I have to wonder with those 1 or 2 voters in ten who were in the middle- how many flipped based on what they thought of the candidates' personalities?

                    Contrast this with Webb- who I felt really ran the great campaign along with people like Tester. Allen tried to tar him with being against the draconian anti gay people amendment (it's not even marriage, it also says they cant even have a contract between each other). It didn't work, and Webb stood his ground on principles. He had something going for him with NoVa trending mid Atlantic rather than South, but he was like that on  a lot of issues.

                    I didn't necessarily want Ford to lose, but I far preferred Webb's win as where I think, if Democrats want to win down South, they need to go rather than placating the redneck vote that will never vote for us.

                •  could you please elaborate (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  AllisonInSeattle

                  why Ford having that confrontation with Corker was such a bad move, vis-a-vis the culture of the South (Tennessee)?

                  Thanks.  :)

                  The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

                  by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:12:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I can talk about from my experience (3+ / 0-)

                    a) Part of it is racial- although no one will say it. The overly aggressive black man. I can't prove that, but I remember thinking it when I saw it on youtube (or somewhere like that).  

                    b) It's style that doesn't work for anyone regardless of race. In VA for example- and again I admit I am thinking in comparable terms of the Southern culture that I know- what hurt  Allen at the end in part was that he was perceived of as probably by some being a jerk too Webb over his books, and that happneed last year in the governor's race as well. In TN, I can't imagine that voters liked a candidate ambushing another candidate like that. It  just felt, I don't know, improper to me. Now, that I am in the NYC, I am used to having to be that aggressive to get what I want, but in terms of politeness, I can't imagine that went over well in small towns and cities in TN. I could be wrong, but I suspect this hurt him with the middle, and the polls I seem to remember do show that his started to slip not only with the racist ad, but also the confrontation moment.

                    •  Thank you. (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      AllisonInSeattle

                      You touched on what I thought you would.  Basically the confrontation was improper and made him out to be too aggressive.  And I have to roll my eyes at the beltway consultants who say he ran a perfect campaign.

                      As for Ford losing the middle, I agree with you there, too.  Ford came across as too slick and artificial and insincere.  I mean, c'mon, the middle HATES fakeness and phoniness.  The middle hated it with Clinton and they hate it with Ford and I suspect they are really going to hate it with Hillary.  Someone ought to tell her this, but I doubt Carville will be the one, lol.

                      Again, thanks for the replies and for writing the diary.  I enjoyed reading it and learned a lot.  :)

                      The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

                      by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 10:31:07 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

              First, I'm confused by your claim that Kos or Jerome (or anyone for that matter) wishes to pursue a "south only" strategy.  The easiest and most obvious opportunities are in the west and midwest.  I'd certainly like to see a link to any commentary that suggests a south only strategy.  Perhaps spending a little time defining the "status quo" and a "south only" strategy would clarify your point of view.

              As for me, I'm deeply sceptical about the prospects for Democrats to win statewide races in the deep south states of Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi. But even in these states, Georgia has two black democrats holding statewide office, and Democrats control the state legislatures in Alabama and Mississippi. If I were in charge of spending money, these states would not be a priority, but I wouldn't abandon them either. I don't think there is any disagreement on this.

              As to Harold Ford I believe his problem is similar to the problem   Champ Walker had in GA-12, a district which was drawn as a minority influence district.  A good Democratic candidate could and ultimately did win in that district.  But Walker's family was corrupt, and his resume was rather thin, and he lost badly.  Ford was certainly a stronger candidate in Tennesse than Walker was in GA-12, but it's difficult to run on your family name when your family is known for being corrupt.

              That siad, I strongly disagree with those who criticize Ford for his position and comments on gay marriage.  With over 80% of the Tennessee electorate voting to ban gay marriage, an equivocal position of silence would have been electoral suicide.  I wish it were different, but wishing doesn't change the reality.  And changing that reality is a LONG TERM goal and has little to do with short term electoral strategy.  I am certainly open to changing my view on the electoral consequences, but I would like to see an example of someone winning in a similar circumstance.

               

              A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

              by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 06:08:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's because you didn't read what I said (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                sja, Big Tent Democrat

                a) I never said Kos is pursuing that goal. In fact, I argue the opposite for Kos. I said that others along the thread got it wrong arguing that he said abandon the south. I have consistenly said that both in the diary and in the postingins here.

                b) I say the logical effect of Jerome's position leads to a South only outcome.  There's a big difference between what people may want to intend, and what happens. When challenged to actually change messaging , and given reasons why- Jerome's response is we can't abandon black people in the South and we can't change strategy. The logical effect is South only of this argument because it continues to position this as the only way to approach discussions is for one to talk about it in a way that Southern voters- nationally will want to hear, versus other strategies where one respects Western voters through messaging.

                By the way, this is the third post you have gotten me wrong on. Others who have read my statements are not miscruing what I have said when asked if thats what they thought I said. I am not going to really engage you on this because in order to have a dialogue the other person has to first read what I say, and vice versa.

                •  I didn't realize you ... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... were all knowing.  Of course I read what you wrote.  I may have misinterpreted it -- as you clearly have misinterpreted much of what I've written -- but I did read it.  

                  But whatever... You clearly are less interested in dialogue than you claim, and I won't waste anymore of my time on you.  

                  A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                  by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 06:49:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You'll have to decipher.... (0+ / 0-)

                  this nonsense for me.  The logic is inscrutable, and the sentence just makes no damn sense:

                  The logical effect is South only of this argument because it continues to position this as the only way to approach discussions is for one to talk about it in a way that Southern voters- nationally will want to hear, versus other strategies where one respects Western voters through messaging.

                  Please either write a little more coherently or refrain from bitching when your point is lost in the illogic. In other words, wtf?  IT seems, since you neither link to or quote Jerome that you may be putting words in his mouth, or at the very least are twisting the meaning of what he writes to suit your own purpose.  A link, quote, and clarification would be nice.  

                  A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                  by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 07:06:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Ford lost because he was the epitome of (0+ / 0-)

                Selfishness.

                Why the fuck isnt he married, a public official at 37yrs? Why? What That conveys to me is that he is not a responsible fella, a selfish fella who just responds to his needs. He allowed the "call me harry" ad to carry its full wieght. He had nothing to humanize him. On the other hand Obama and Deval Patrick appear to be complete wholesome individuals. This Ford guy deserved to loose. Let him go get a wife (and life).

            •  democratic nominee (0+ / 0-)

              I had greater issues of how strategic or pragmatic it was to continue to run Ford type candidates down South versus a Webb type candidate

              I am 100% in favor of being actively involved in the Democratic primary.  Get involved there and do everything you can to get your favorite the nomination.  But when the primary is over, Democrats need to close ranks around the nominee.  A democrat who undermines Ford in Tennessee is no different than a Democrat who undermined Lamont in Connecticut.

              Moreover, candidates like Webb and Tester are few and far between.  I'd love to see more like them.  But they are rare, primarly because running as a democrat in a red state is an enormously risky thing to do.  First, you'll probably lose.  Second, Republicans will spend millions tarnishing your reputation.  And third, many Democrats will bitch and moan about you being Republican lite or worse.  

              The more Democrats complain about the red state democratic nominees, the more likely they are to switch to the GOP.  Amy Tuck in Mississippi is a very good example.  Or compare Sonny Perdue with his contemporaries like Max Cleland who remained Democrats.

               

              A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

              by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 06:36:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  there wasn't a democratic primary (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Big Tent Democrat

                in TN, Ford was chosen by the nationals. Moreover, this isn't about individual candidates- it's an illustration of a point. I have read enough of your post to realize you are one of those people who has your mind made up with out understandign that there are many positions other than the two that have previously been argued. I won't be responding to anymore of your post- because unlike before, I thought you maybe become from a place of real desire to discuss. I dont sense from any of your posts that is really what's going on. Just too many times you try to manipulate what I said to make me out to be saying something either different from what I said, or miscruing why the point was being made.

                •  Is it Harold Ford's fault... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... that there wasn't a democratic primary? It's a free country, and anyone could have run for that seat.  If you wanted the perfect candidate, you could have moved to Tennessee and qualified yourself.

                  Sitting on your hands, and then bitching about the outcome, is not really a helpful contribution.  

                  And I will be replying to you, I just won't waste time trying to be nice about.  You are way out of line in your responses to me, both in terms of substance and tone.

                  A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                  by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 06:57:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I didn't. Do you have a link? nt (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            AllisonInSeattle

            --
            If anyone asks, just say we're high on life.
            WWYTR?

            by cowgirl on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 11:58:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not seeing it either.... (0+ / 0-)

            Link please.

            A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

            by decon on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 05:28:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Great diary. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle, TruthOfAngels

    Thank you for your insight.

    If you look at the numbers, the mountain west, southwest, and midwest are winnable.  The partisan index is doable.  But, in places like South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, and even Tennessee, it'll be generations before it's doable.

    The border states like Arkansas, Virginia, NC, and Kentucky are the ones that MIGHT, might, be in play after a while.

    The growth in electoral votes and in congressional representation lies in the mountain west. south west, and midwest.  

    The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

    by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 08:31:47 PM PDT

    •  Border states - since when (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      redwagon, bree, red bed head

      The border states like Arkansas, Virginia, NC, and Kentucky are the ones that MIGHT, might, be in play after a while.

      Virginia saw the most action in the Civil War.  Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy.  North Carolina and Arkansas were states in the Confederacy.  Since when are they considered border states?

      Kentucky was indeed a border state.

      Look at the numbers.  Right.  Well, guess what.  Some of us are out to change those numbers.  History is not destiny.

      •  NoVa (4+ / 0-)

        makes VA a border state politically. He's not referencing to my knowledge the historical make up of the Conferacy.

        •  exactly what I am saying. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          AllisonInSeattle

          I know the fucking 11 states of the confederacy and was born in portsmouth, va.

          but, politically, VA is now behaving like a border state.

          Arkansas may be fine in senate and congressional races, but it is still very red in presidential ones.

          The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

          by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 09:48:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ummm, that's because candidates (0+ / 0-)

            don't campaign in Arkansas.  If the 2008 nominee will show up in Arkansas for a few days, it will make a huge difference.  Trust me.  

            --
            If anyone asks, just say we're high on life.
            WWYTR?

            by cowgirl on Thu Nov 16, 2006 at 12:02:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So (0+ / 0-)

            Anywhere where Democrats gain power is by you definition "not the South" but a border state.  So is Nebraska "the South"?

            Virginia might be a state in transition from Republican control to Democratic control, but it still is in the South and sees itself that way.  Maryland however, is a border state; all you have to do is live on the Eastern Shore for any time to know it.  Delaware is the same way.

            Pennsylvania is definitely a northern state, but has been described as a slice of Pittsburgh, a slice of Philadelphia, and Alabama in the middle.  So how is central Pennsylvania less a hopeless cause than central Alabama?

            •  I think the core point (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              TarheelDem

              that I am getting from you, and I agree with it, is that the Democratic messaging shouldn't be changed to attract the redneck element (a term I dont just use for the South but anywhere I go including in NYC for the elements of an area that gets off on controlling others through provincial thinking) of the South.

      •  try and change those numbers (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sja, AllisonInSeattle

        knock yourself out.  but i would contend that it ain't worth it right now to have to move far enough to the right for us to be able to appeal to Mississippi.  I happen to like the Democrats' social liberalism...that's why I am one.

        The US is now a corporatist-fascist society where Blackwater rules. I'm neither a christian, nor a capitalist, so where do I fit in?

        by HillaryGuy on Wed Nov 15, 2006 at 09:49:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]