This morning I forwarded the e-mail
A Pledge from Michael Moore to a republican ex-coworker (who we'll call Gary) in order to get his reaction. What follows below the fold is his response to each point, followed by my rebuttal. It's all a bit long, but my first substantive attempt to respond to so many distortions in a looooong while. I guess I'm feeling emboldened to speak up more with a victory under our belts.
Michael Moore's point is in bold.
Gary's response is blockquoted.
And my rebuttal follows.
Gary's lead in:
Believe it or not - I would actually be for Obama for a presidency run (and I am not lying - if he keeps honest with his talking points as he has been, I WOULD vote for him - unless you throw Hillary in the ring as his running mate. For some reason I can't seem to find anything about her to like)
A few items I agree with, others do not make sense to me at all (but again - I was probably raised differently than you so don't hold it against me)... My notes under those I don't agree with.
1. We will always respect you for your conservative beliefs. We will never, ever, call you "unpatriotic" simply because you disagree with us. In fact, we encourage you to dissent and disagree with us.
I am fine with this as long as certain democratic mouthpieces (Kerry and Murtha) stop condemning our soldiers as a group - saying they rape and kill women and children in the dead of night? I disagree with that... and that IS unpatriotic to say about our soldiers WHILE they are in enemy territory.
Find me one example where they ever did this. The troops that Murtha condemned DID commit atrocities. That's not disputed. The republicans cynically attacked Murtha for being an honest appraiser of the situation. The only way we can maintain any moral credibility in the war in which we are truly fighting (hearts and minds) is by demonstrating that we do not condone such actions. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of our leaders to tell the world that when horrible or inexcusable acts are committed by our soldiers, that these acts are NOT U.S. policy. The right-wing attackers did not care about this fact, they simply fed the media attacks on his statements COMPLETELY out of context, knowing that the media is too damn lazy and too spineless to call bullshit on them.
2. We will let you marry whomever you want, even when some of us consider your behavior to be "different" or "immoral." Who you marry is none of our business. Love and be in love -- it's a wonderful gift.
Who gets to decide where the line get drawn, if at all? Can men marry underage boys with parental consent, can sisters marry sisters to get benefits, heck - can you marry your Pug and claim married on your taxes?
I can say that right now, and I say with no hesitation that everyone whom is on the side of gay rights would agree. Only two consenting adult human beings may enter into marriage. If I ever hear anyone say otherwise, I'll totally be on your side of all those questions. But we're not talking about all those hypotheticals you asked. We're talking about homosexuals. And if you can't fathom the attraction for another man, and the idea repulses you, then that means you're straight. So am I. But there ARE people who dig it, and they have relationships with other people that are every bit as profound as yours and mine.
This is an issue that I think religious people have reacted to in the wrong way. No politician I can think of, especially on the Democratic side, has ever said that anyone's church is required to recognize or endorse gay marriage, that includes applying that terminology. IF they were, then the issue that religious folks should be raising is the importance of SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. But no one was suggesting that, so why has religion decided to force its policies on the state? That is what is of concern to me, and should be to you, because that door can start to swing both ways if you're not careful. Some of the loudest proponents of the separation of church and state in this countries inception were ironically evangelical baptists who were worried about other powerful religions of the day exerting too much influence on discriminatory policies towards their beliefs.
P.S. Did you hear that in New York City you can change your birth certificate to say you are a woman (did you read that?) - then you can get around the marriage laws (once again the judges go around the law to get the minority their way)
I haven't read or heard of the specific case you are talking about.
3. We will not spend your grandchildren's money on our personal whims or to enrich our friends. It's your checkbook, too, and we will balance it for you.
This one does not make sense at all... Dems want to get rid of the child tax credit ($1800 away from me and my family). The economy is great - my 401k is through the roof. I am making more money, paying $2500 less in taxes per year). Plus - Republicans want to get rid of the death tax... and dems do not? Removing the death tax would LEAVE 50% more money for my children and grandchildren. So how can liberals claim they are going to leave more money for their grandchildren - by taxing MY MONEY?
Name one Dem who wants to do that, it's a lie.
Do you make $5 million dollars a year? Cause that's what dems wanted to keep the estate tax at (death tax is the name given to it by republicans, in fact most of the opposition to the estate tax has been traced to 18 wealthy familys). The republicans wouldn't keep this and in fact raised the estate tax limit to 10 million dollars. Sounds like somone's been trying to you sell you some bullshit that this tax applies to anyone who isn't REALLY rich. Look it up
5. When we make America the last Western democracy to have universal health coverage, and all Americans are able to get help when they fall ill, we promise that you, too, will be able to see a doctor, regardless of your ability to pay. And when stem cell research delivers treatments and cures for diseases that affect you and your loved ones, we'll make sure those advances are available to you and your family, too.
Universal health coverage NEVER works!!!!!!!!!!!! Look at Canada - do you really want to wait 6 months to have a bypass? Do you really wnat a doctor that is on a set flat-rate income working on you? Are you willing to pay pay out the nose for everyone elses coverage AND not get the quality of care we get today?
I don't know how often you've been unemployed in the last 5 years, but I've gone through my share of layoffs and floating on freelance periods. Now I have to wait six months just for my insurance to even kick in. In the meantime, I'm sent surprise bills for blood tests that are suddenly not covered (i'm talking standard checkup lab work), endless paperwork, and it costs me $350/month to keep it going on cobra. Sorry, from my perspective I'd rather have it guaranteed and simplified. I'd rather be paying extra for everyone to have health care than for outdated cold war bombers & other obsolete technology, that's for sure. Fine, don't go UNIVERSAL single payer, but the system we have is atrocious if you're on the wrong end of it. And don't tell me that it's an impoetus to struggle in the free market, that it somehow incentivizes hard work. A huge percentage of bankruptcies in this country are by families who can't afford their medical bills if their kid suddenly gets sick or a family member undergoes a long term degenerative illness, and that's people WITH health insurance in a lot of cases.
http://scientificactivist.blogspot.com/...
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/...
http://cthealth.server101.com/...
Read some of those, particularly the last one, and find me a credible source that could demonstrate that there is simply NO WAY to get health care of every man woman and child in this country. We went to the moon for fuck's sake! A little LEADERSHIP and intelligence could make this happen. Americans need and deserve it.
If nothing else, government could do something to help cut down the costs to private insurance by SOME sort of centralization of medical information. Why do I have to fill out the same form everytime I start a new job, then another form at the doctor's office. The bureaucracy is a big problem now and this is one case where it's the private industry, NOT government that is causing the bottle necks and unnecessarily wasteful and inefficient processes.
6. Even though you have opposed environmental regulation, when we clean up our air and water, we, the Democratic majority, will let you, too, breathe the cleaner air and drink the purer water.
Basic economics story here... if you kill big business, you kill our economy - there is a happy medium. Nobody is against clean air and water but we also live in a machine (the economy) that needs to keep running... if you over-regulate you kill industry, and the jobs associated with that industry, and then life won't be worth living if we are all either poor or paying for the universal healthcare of the unemployed.
Couldn't agree more. The difference is that I don't believe that responsibility and profitability are mutually exclusive. Some of the worst corporate offenders on the environment, who cite economic constraints as their reason for not being able to comply with the necessary environmental concerns, are the same ones who now pay their CEO's grotesquely unjustifiable amounts of money, even those who don't perform well. The problem is that there's a lot of greed up at the top of some of these places and they're not being appropriately responded to by the markets. Regulation should not constrict and congest industry performance, but it IS necessary to allow competition to thrive. The corruption and lobbyist scandals that have all been coming out are really examples of how a lot of powerful players fucked with the system in order to skew the market in their favor. That's not healthy, right?
I've gotten off the topic of the environment, but I believe my point is to demonstrate that companies are not always run with the best interests of the public at heart. That's the role of government. Just like I don't want a cop to be excessively invasive into my privacy, but I DO want him to help me if I'm being mugged, that's the basic level of governmental regulation that has been missing from congress in recent years.
7. Should a mass murderer ever kill 3,000 people on our soil, we will devote every single resource to tracking him down and bringing him to justice. Immediately. We will protect you.
okay... and that is not happening now? Haven't heard a new plan on this one yet from anyone?
So have you heard anything about Osama Bin Laden's capture yet? Cuz I haven't. Oh yeah the Taliban is on the rise again in Afghanistan. Guess we're too busy elsewhere to close that deal.
http://www.nytimes.com/...
8. We will never stick our nose in your bedroom or your womb. What you do there as consenting adults is your business. We will continue to count your age from the moment you were born, not the moment you were conceived.
hmmmm... How hypocritical that you, being allowed to live, can speak for those not born yet. Abortion survivors must unite!
So how many times do the republicans have to dangle that carrot of banning abortion in order for you to realise that it will never happen? They certainly won't do it, they'd lose one of their biggest wedge issues. The Democrats won't do it either because evidently people don't want it completely banned. SOUTH DAKOTA just repealed its draconian ban on abortion by popular referendum. If you want to lower the amount of abortions, then how about making it an unnecessary option for women who feel they simply have no option? And don't sell me the line that you're looking out for the "least among us" when a few paragraphs ago you were wailing about the possibility of having to pay for the dirty poor people's health care.
9. We will not take away your hunting guns. If you need an automatic weapon or a handgun to kill a bird or a deer, then you really aren't much of a hunter and you should, perhaps, pick up another sport. We will make our streets and schools as free as we can from these weapons and we will protect your children just as we would protect ours.
I don't own a gun, but why is #9 so different from #8 - what I do as a consenting adult is my business?
I think the point is to fight back the notion that the Democrats want to fuck with the hook and bullet crowd. They have become some of the strongest advocates for environmental activism, so the whole gun control issue seems to be finally resolved in this country for the most part. Yay! Compromise towards common, larger goals!
10. When we raise the minimum wage, we will pay you -- and your employees -- that new wage, too. When women are finally paid what men make, we will pay conservative women that wage, too.
???? 2% of the population make minimum wage - there are hardly ANY companies PAYING the minimum wage (McDonalds even pays more than minimum) - and many of the min. wage earners are high school students.
So what's the problem with raising the minimum wage? it's been like 12 years, did you notice gas prices have just about tripled? only seems fair to me to index minimum wage to inflation, or automatically increases on a certain schedule. I believe this is how congress does it...
http://blogs.usatoday.com/...
11. We will respect your religious beliefs, even when you don't put those beliefs into practice. In fact, we will actively seek to promote your most radical religious beliefs ("Blessed are the poor," "Blessed are the peacemakers," "Love your enemies," "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God," and "Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."). We will let people in other countries know that God doesn't just bless America, he blesses everyone. We will discourage religious intolerance and fanaticism -- starting with the fanaticism here at home, thus setting a good example for the rest of the world.
Okay - hypocrite again... thou shalt not kill? A baby is breathing after weeks in the womb. But I guess that commandment has special considerations.
Again, I don't give a shit about abortion, but think it should be legal. The larger point here is that you can't find me one instance of Jesus mentioning abortion, but he talks about the POOR pretty much all the fucking time. Not that anyone ever brings that up anymore.
12. We will not tolerate politicians who are corrupt and who are bought and paid for by the rich. We will go after any elected leader who puts him or herself ahead of the people. And we promise you we will go after the corrupt politicians on our side FIRST. If we fail to do this, we need you to call us on it. Simply because we are in power does not give us the right to turn our heads the other way when our party goes astray. Please perform this important duty as the loyal opposition.
Here you go... I am calling you on it...
Hillary is ready for investigation (at least):
http://www.io.com/...
Bill Clinton had an affair with an intern and the dem party didn't want to impeach him?
Considering that the republican congress won't impeach Bush for lying about all his reasons for war, I'd say we just drop the matter entirely. BTW, I DON'T support any effort to impeach Bush. I want to get shit moving forward in this country.
It's not about left and right to me dude, it's about FORWARD and BACKWARD.