Daily Kos

Despite narrative, "conservative" and "southern" Dem victories were scarce

Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:32:43 AM PDT

The lie that won't die. In an interview of former Rep. and Blue Dog founding member Glen Browder, the following fantastic claim is made:

The Blue Dogs are back big-time. Of the more than two dozen Democrats who knocked off sitting congressional Republicans on Tuesday, most if not all line up with the centrist Blue Dog Coalition, meaning these new congressmen will be to the right of their more liberal House leaders.

Out of 29 Democrats that have won thus far (barring further recounts), a grand total of five might be ideologically lined up with the Blue Dogs -- the three new Indiana reps, Nick Lampson in Texas, and Heath Shuler of NC. Shuler, however, is far to the left of the Blue Dogs on economic issues. Maybe Harry Mitchell in Arizona. Maybe.

Not to mention the two Blue Dogs who ran for Senate -- Harold Ford and Ed Case (in Hawaii) lost.

So "most" of the new Dem reps are Blue Dog material? Like progressive hero Jerry McNerney in California? Like Ed Perlmutter in CO-07? The two new Connecticut Democrats -- Courtney and Murphy? The two new New Hampshire Democrats -- Shea-Porter and Hodes? Tim Mahoney and and Ron Klein in Florida? Braley and Loebsack in Iowa? Yarmuth in Kentucky, who was supposedly too liberal to win a southern House seat? Tim Walz in Minnesota? Arcuri, Gillibrand, and Hall in NY? Space in Ohio? Altmire, Sestak, and Murphy in PA? Even Carney in the conservative PA-10 doesn't line up well with the Blue Dogs. Kagen in Wisconsin? Giffords in Arizona?

So "most if not all" line up with the Blue Dog Coalition? Can people be more ridiculous?

Browder makes this claim:

The Democrats did not achieve a majority in Congress without Dixie, and “there would be no new Democratic Congress without southerners.

Sounds great, but it's not true.

In the South, we picked up a gift in Texas, two seats in Florida, one seat in North Carolina (thus far), and one seat in Kentucky.

That's five seats. Given that we have a 30-seat majority, I think we'd still have a Democratic congress without the South. Same in the Senate, with the only Southern pickup being Jim Webb in Virginia.

That's not to denigrate the South, but to inject a bit of realism into the discussion, as Tom Schaller attempts to do. There is definitely a CW that claims that Dems can't win without the South. Well, we did. The results are quite clear and uncontroversial on the matter.

[H]ere are the "flip rates" of GOP-held seats, by region: Northeast, 30.6%; Midwest, 15.0%; Far West, 9.5%; South, 5.5% [...]

85% of Democratic gains at all levels in 2006 came outside the South [...]

[T]he only two Democrats who almost lost House seats despite the blue wave--which means we had to waste resources on defense rather than spending it on offense--were in Georgia;

We don't want to abandon the South and we won't. But the short-term path for a Democratic progressive majority runs through our coastal strongholds, and then through the swing Midwest and purpling Mountain West. The South is a long-term reclamation project.

Update: I've just heard that Patrick Murphy in PA-08 will join the Blue Dems. Even if the Blue Dogs get 10 new members out of the 30+ new Democrats (which include pickups and Dems replacing retiring Dems), that's still not "most if not all".

Update II: Ah, I realize I misunderstood Browder's point -- it's true, our 15-seat majority in Congress probably wouldn't exist without white Southern Democrats in the House. There's more than 15 of them (though not much more).

  • ::

Tags: 2006 elections (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 326 comments

  •  Can these losers ever stop lying? (6+ / 0-)

    I'm actually encouraged by their purposeful ignorance.  They can't effectively fight the progressive movement by ignoring its strength.

    All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. - George Orwell

    by Five of Diamonds on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:34:35 AM PDT

  •  it really isn't that hard (6+ / 0-)

    but apperently it is but it appears the south is fretting it's growing irrelevance

    John McCain gets economic advice from subprime mortgage banking lobbyist

    by gaspare on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:34:36 AM PDT

    •  The fastest-growing region in population... (0+ / 0-)

      Is NOT irrelevent...lest one think so, one will see otherwise in the electoral vote totals in 2008...he who doesn't take at least two Southern states does not win...no matter how many mountain West states he takes...and the most likely ones are three: Colorado, New Mexico, and, possibly, Nevada. As for the others:

      Clinton carried Arizona in '96, but we can certainly forget that if McCain is the Repub nominee; otherwise, maybe we have an outside chance;

      Despite notable improvements in our performance--and here's to Jon Tester!--in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming--here's to Gary Trauner--and Utah, I really do think that any one of five Southern states--Virginia, Arkansas, Tenn., N.C., and Kentucky--will go Democratic before those Western states do.

      "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."--Miguel De Santa Anna

      by GainesT1958 on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 07:50:50 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Yep, don't forget about (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    pHunbalanced, metal prophet, boofdah

    Senator elect Sherrod Brown, who is certainly not "blue dog" democrat.

  •  glen browder (0+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    boofdah

    glen browder has no room to talk, being such an abject failure as a candidate for national office that he couldn't beat a guy who went to jail shortly after the primary.  what a moron.  thanks for making alabamians look great again, glen.  (snort)

    sometimes when you look in his eyes you get the feeling that someone else is driving. - letterman (-8.00, -7.18)

    by liberalsouth on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:35:03 AM PDT

    •  Browder (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      boofdah

      Yeah, I should definately look into that primary.

      Glen probably should have just stayed in the House. Instead of leaving, failing, and letting his seat go to Riley.

      White Southern Democratic Congressmen have a lousy record at running for the Senate these days. Chapman, Bryant, and Bentsen in Texas, John in Louisiana, Browder in Alabama.. probably a few more that I forgot.

      "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

      by RBH on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:39:41 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Glen Browder (0+ / 0-)

      Any relation to Earl Browder?  That would explain as family tradition pushing a "party line" in the face of overwhelming factual evidence.

      A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

      by ActivistGuy on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:51:36 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Abandoning the South? (9+ / 0-)

    When the South finally abandons the 19th Century then I'll welcome them with open arms.

    The Democratic Party: Always ready to bring a knife to a gun fight.

    by Splicer on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:35:59 AM PDT

    •  Whistling Dixie! (5+ / 0-)

      Last time I looked Virginia was in the South.

      Moreover, by choosing and electing Webb as Senator I believe they certainly made a quantum leap to the 21th century.

      Wouldn't you agree?

      "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, US AG

      by Mr SeeMore on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:51:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Regional bigotry abounds (16+ / 0-)

      Y'all just can't deal with people who are different, can you?  It seems that we Southerners have more in common with you than previously thought...

      Btw, there were a whopping five (six if you count Missouri) Senate seats up for grabs in the South this cycle: Florida, Mississippi, (Missouri), Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia.  We won half of these (with MO).  In Tennessee, Ford lost by only three points, despite Kos' deep hatred of Ford and his absurd attempts to undermine Ford's candidacy at every available opportunity.  Dems did not field strong candidates in Mississippi or Texas against strong incumbents.  In Virginia, Jim Webb knocked off George Allen because of an unprecedented grassroots movement from VIRGINIA DEMOCRATS, including those who were connected to the netroots and those who weren't.

      Drop the hatred and the hypocrisy.  Fifty states means fifty states.  Not 40, 30, etc.  Quit proclaiming the greatness of Howard Dean's plan but then balk when you're actually asked to help implement it.

      •  Missouri isnt the south (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jxg, PanzerMensch, Ryno, TomP

        of the seats that are considered Southern, you won one seat agaisnt an incumbent. and retained one again in an attypical state- FL which is reflective of the vast immigration of NE to FL

        •  MO is 50/50, FL is the South (6+ / 0-)

          The Ozark area of MO is generally considered Southern.  Missouri was a slave state, and the North fought tooth and nail to keep it in the Union.  

          Florida is part of the South.  Granted, only the Northern area and parts of Central and South Florida still have a Southern culture.  If you can order sweet tea, you're in the South.  

          To say FL is not the South is the same as saying NY is not "Northeastern" because the upstate region is largely rural.  That dog don't hunt.

          •  Actually, St. Louis (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            jxg

            kept it in the union by chasing the Governor to Arkansas.  

            The Ozarks are less than 20% of the State.  We are not 50/50.  

            I guess the South can only become relevant now by claiming other states.

            Sorry, don't belong to the South, don't want to belong.

            "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

            by TomP on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:17:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  And Texas left the Union... (0+ / 0-)

              ... only by chasing their governor out of the state.   Missouri is at least as southern as Texas.  

              The larger point is that it's silly to arbitrarily decide that the 11 states forming the confederacy are now the relevant southern states.

              A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

              by decon on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:55:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Except... (0+ / 0-)

                Except for the fact that both native Missourians that I know consider the state midwestern and definitely not sotuhern.  So if the state's own native sons say they aren't southern, then, well they aren't southern.

                "An army of principles can penetrate where an army of soldiers cannot." - Thomas Paine

                by Mister Gloom on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:08:55 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Two... (0+ / 0-)

                  ... hardly qualifies as data.  

                  And it's irrelevant in any event since Schaller's definition of "southern" is based on a historical conception rather than a contemporary understanding.

                  A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

                  by decon on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:39:21 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Sweet tea (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            GoldnI

            If you can order sweet tea, you're in the South.  

            How true!

            "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, US AG

            by Mr SeeMore on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:31:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So True of the Sweet Tea... (0+ / 0-)

              Having lived in Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, and Florida...

              Its one of the positive memories I hold of Dixie.

              Also, let's remember that while the South was the Cradle of the Confederacy, it was also the birthplace of the Civil Rights Movement.

              Southern progressives need the support of the greater progressive community. Many times, I felt that the legacy of the Confederacy resounded stronger than memories of the Civil Rights Movement-even in the minds of even most liberal progressive.

              When we speak of education reform, raising the minimum wage, lowering tuition rates, and health coverage expansion--many Southern states are affected, and in need of such reforms, the most.

              I look forward to moment in this generation when our progressives values will supercede our geographic regionalism.

          •  I lived in florida (0+ / 0-)

            for 11 years.  It is anything but southern.  Parts of North florida might be southern but the rest of the state is not.

            •  Well... (0+ / 0-)

              Whenever I would drive down I-10E onto I-75S on my frequent visits to Tampa, it never ceased to amaze me of how many Confederate Flags were on clear display. The panhandle is definitely Southern in tradition, central Florida moderately so.

              But just the same, Alabama Democrats have held the state legislative branch for years, some of whom I know personally and are progressive. Regardless, it is a  Soutehrn state. And with my experiences and residence in Florida, it definitely has more Southern ties than not. At least more, than say, Washington, D.C. which was viewed as a "Southern" region during its construction.

              Point is, irrespective of the state's progressive or conservative areas--it's historical and geographic context are undeniably Southern. But, I will certainly cede to your implied point that it not traditionally considered a "Dixie" state.

          •  FL is a state where Kerry outpolled... (0+ / 0-)

            each of the last 3 Dem gov nominees.  Kerry got 47% here.  Davis got 45% this year.  MacBride got 42% in '02.  IIRC, MacKay got 45-6% in '98.

            FL is a state in which the Dems have won 3 of the last 4 Senate races, w/ the one loss being a cliffhanger in '04.  FL is a state in which, by any fair count, the Dem prez nominee won 2 of the last 3.  Meanwhile, the GOP owns most everything else (the Dems did pick up the CFO race this year).  

            IOW, FL is the inverse of your typical southern state.  The Dems do much better at the prez/senate level than they do anywhere else.

            The 2 seat pickup in the House wasn't that inspiring.  FL-16 was a gift, and the GOP will be back hard for it in '08.  FL-22, a seat that should've been Dem years ago, required one of the DSCC's biggest expenditures to wrest away.  FL-13, which we probably won't get, was even more expensive.

            This state is anything but an ad for the Blue Dog perspective.

            Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

            by RFK Lives on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 10:29:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I live in St. Louis. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jxg, esquimaux

          We are not the South.  Some parts of southern Missouri are similar to the South, but most of the State is not.  Most of the state is midwestern.  Those more southern parts voted for Talent.

          McCaskill is a pro-choice centrist Dem.  Not a blue dog Dem.

          i am so tired of Southern Dems telling the rest of us how essential they are.  Show us, by winning once in a while.  

          Kos is right; we don't give up on the South, but it is a long-term reclamation project.  

          Our future is in the midwest and mountain west, combined with the NE and west coast.  

          "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

          by TomP on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:15:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  By what definition... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sandy on Signal

          ... is Missouri excluded from the South?

          The 11 former Confederate states—the traditional definition of the South, and the one I use throughout the book...

          Ah, Schaller's definition of "the South" -- a really stupid one. Eastern Tennessee may be excluded with as much justification as either West Virginia.  The same is true of Northern Alabama.  Etc...
           
          I largely agree with the thesis that the deep South is a long term reclamation project, but arguments that turn on simple definitions of "the South" aren't especially informative.

          Each state, and each district within the state, needs to be evaluated on it's own merits. Anything else is lazy hackery.

          A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

          by decon on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:52:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Um, wrong (0+ / 0-)

          From ProgressiveSouth's excellent diary:

          In other words: out of the 19 "key races" in the South followed by political analysts, Democrats won eight; will likely win one more (GA-12); should have won FL-13; could still pick up NC-08; and narrowly missed in VA-02.

          Despite this 47% victory rate - and that Democrats were competitive in 63% of these key Southern races -- I have yet to see the South-naysayers express doubts about their "certain" analysis.

          The "certain" analysis is Schaller's assertion the Dems wouldn't win any Southern seats at all.  

          Bob Corker still sucks. Now more than ever.

          by Eleanor A on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:29:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  A - MEN (0+ / 0-)

        Kos declares that those who won in the SOuth were not Blue Dogs, and then calls for us to quit trying in the South.

        Um, Kos, THOSE WHO WON IN THE SOUTH WERE NOT BLUE DOGS.  Progressives won in the South.  

        "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

        by DrFrankLives on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:04:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please read his post again (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          xerico

          I think you're letting emotion cloud your understanding.  You say:

          Kos declares that those who won in the SOuth were not Blue Dogs, and then calls for us to quit trying in the South.

          But Kos wrote:

          We don't want to abandon the South and we won't. But the short-term path for a Democratic progressive majority runs through our coastal strongholds, and then through the swing Midwest and purpling Mountain West. The South is a long-term reclamation project.

          (emphasis mine)

          Try to stick to facts.

          •  the natural result of focusing on the coasts (0+ / 0-)

            is to stop spending money in the South.

            You do that, you lock them in power down here and you miss the opportunity to stop on their necks.

            We are a hair's breadth from destroying the Republican Party here in North Carolina.  Beating Liddy Dole and winning the Governorship again will devastate the GOP.

            If you fail to contest the Presidency down here, you will abandon us and you will miss that opportunity.

            "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

            by DrFrankLives on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:17:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's a two-way street (0+ / 0-)

        For decades the South has ruled this country, funneled money to failed and dieing rural economies, and assimilated far-right Southern mores into the mainstream. Five of the last seven US presidents have been Southern. Until next year, the party of the old Confederacy has controlled Congress for half a century - and you still want to whine about bigotry?

        The dislike of Northerners for Southerners is only matched by the dislike of Southerners for Northerners - an arrogance that is based on political superiority.

        If anyone's a hypocritical élitist here, it's the southerners who want to claim special privileges far and beyond what is granted to the rest of the country.

        •  You missed the point (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Eleanor A, jeffinalabama, lorzie, GoldnI

          You're right, there is a dislike between Northerners and Southerners.  We don't like you because y'all keep on telling us how to act, y'all don't like us because we continue acting how we want.

          All kidding aside though bud, this region of the country is hurting.  Heck, look at what happened to New Orleans.  Poverty is rampant, and education is very subpar.  I could care less that a guy like Gene Taylor in Mississippi is not a 'true progressive' if he works his butt off to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina.  The same holds true for other Democrats down here.  This region needs a helping hand, and by God I'm not going to tell my neighbors "Sorry, you're not viable to the liberal movement.  Pray that your current representatives care about your interests, because you've just been written off by the other side as a 'long-term project.'"

          By the way, calling us 'elitists' while going through the trouble of putting an accent mark above the 'e' is pretty darn funny.  You're very cùltùred.

          •  There are other areas of this county hurting. (0+ / 0-)

            Just north of me in upstate New York, we have high unemployment and poverty. Yet the people in my state don't see nearly as much tax money as the majority of the south. You don't have a monpoly on suffering. It's not all about you.

            Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

            by tigercourse on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 11:09:10 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Be Your Brother's Keeper (3+ / 0-)

              I cannot possibly agree with your last comment, nor should anyone else.  People are suffering in all 435 districts in this country.  Do we abandon them?  No!  You have to fight for everybody, or you're not a national party.  How can you say you stand up for working families when you write about leaving an entire region of the country to the wolves simply because they don't share your worldview?  To equate me or anyone else down here with being selfish because we want to help those less fortunate is just plain wrong.

              As such, the South should not be ignored, nor should any other region.  As I stated in an earlier post, if you're going to worship at the altar of Howard Dean and his 50-state strategy, then you should not write off an entire region of the country.  Kos is right, the South is a long-term project.  It will take a lot of work to make the region competitive again.  But I get the feeling that some people on this site would like to equate 'long-term' with 'never.'  If it's the latter, then by definition the Democrats cannot be a National Party.  

              •  How can you take "It's not all about you" (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Pd, Nightprowlkitty

                to mean... really any of the things you put in your post. The country is already centered on the South (and to a degree the South West). I'm not asking anyone to ignore the plight of people there, I want somone to acknowledge how much other people in this country are suffering, suffering in part because our money goes to you.

                Hillary Clinton's Liberal Ranking http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/10/122232/619

                by tigercourse on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:40:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not too sure about this one... (0+ / 0-)

                  "I'm not asking anyone to ignore the plight of people there, I want somone to acknowledge how much other people in this country are suffering, suffering in part because our money goes to you."

                  I know that many have suggested scaling back investment in Southern progressive candidates because of the low-yielding returns in terms of electing Democrats; however, I am not convinced that this provides sufficient evidence there is a political zero-sum among regions.

                  Maybe the true source of suffering comes from those who have exploited the regional and geographic differences for political capital and security.

      •  in VA, Webb barely won (0+ / 0-)

        despite Allen's bigoted racist statements.  People like that he called that kid a racist name and put him in his place.
        I believe in the 50 state strategy.  But just once I would like too see all you blue dog southerners tall me how you are changing the minds and hearts of your neighbors rather than insisting I just accept racist, sexist, fundamentalist, gun loving good old boy mentality as the only way we can win the south.

        •  Here we go again (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sandy on Signal

          I have yet to see you denounce your new Senator Casey for his anti-choice position, which according to some is the reason he was selected to run against Santorum.

          Explain to me why anti-gay-marriage referenda passed in several states outside the South - including CO and WI - and why Michigan passed an anti-affirmative-action ballot initiative.  And then maybe you can claim moral high ground.

          Bob Corker still sucks. Now more than ever.

          by Eleanor A on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 01:25:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Amen to that one, brother! (0+ / 0-)

        Howard Dean didn't say he wanted the guy in Georgia with the Stars and Bars on the bumper of his pickup to vote Democratic for nothing!

        SOME of those same guys in Southside Virgina must have voted for Jim Webb--otherwise, he wouldn't have won!

        "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."--Miguel De Santa Anna

        by GainesT1958 on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:01:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  thanks so much for your help and support. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Eleanor A, palachia

      n/t

      "Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German," Molly Ivins, 1992

      by jeffinalabama on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:08:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  oh, for a 2 rating again (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Colorado Luis, philgoblue, niremetal

      Ridiculous, borderline troll comment.

      "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

      by DrFrankLives on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:09:11 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Agreed n/t (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    boofdah

    Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night

    by hrh on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:36:22 AM PDT

  •  my biggest grievance with this argument (7+ / 0-)

    is that it it never existed until after the election. Before the election, they were frequently labelled "liberal". But, let's go along with the "conservative Dem" meme...

    If the Dems ran candidates that were so conservative, why did the Republicans bother running against them?

    only fools are enslaved by time and space

    by PanzerMensch on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:37:08 AM PDT

  •  A good link (7+ / 0-)

    Stuart Rothenberg tackles this line of nonsense in today's column.

    It quickly has become conventional wisdom that last week’s Democratic House victory swept in a crop of moderate and conservative Democrats who’ll both keep party liberals in check and help remake the image of the party of former Vice President Al Gore, Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) and soon-to-be Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).

    Well, I met dozens of Democrats running in 2006 - no, not everyone, but most of them - and I can’t find much more than a couple who merit the label "conservative." That’s not meant to be either criticism or praise. It’s merely a statement of fact.

    •  Well, at least Rothenberg refuses to drink... (0+ / 0-)

      The Beltway Kool-Aid.

      I'm sick and tired of all this lame talk about "conservative Democrats" taking over our party! So if the GOP nominates John McCain in '08 (who is definitely no "liberal"), will that be considered to be a victory for the "liberal Republicans"?

      The MSM folks need to get over their bad selves, realize that their GOPer friends lost, and start being a little more even-handed in their coverage.

  •  Mahoney could be in the middle (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    boofdah

    he was a Republican in this decade, I think. So he might still keep some traits from all that. Hopefully it's nothing too bad.

    Party-switchers tend to have a good winning percentage. Both the people who do it in office (Deal, Tauzin, Alexander) and the people who did it before winning office (Watkins in Oklahoma).

    Mahoney is probably in a good spot to impress enough people to win in 2008 even if the Democratic nominee loses FL-16.

    But yeah, Republican politicians want a monopoly on the good ideas.

    Therefore, Democrats just won by being Republican, and Republicans lost by being liberal, or some cogdis nonsense.

    Hey, notice how Shadegg and Pence got blown out in their own party?

    The new bosses there are not dumb enough to veer farther to the right. They're just fine where they are. ;)

    "Our country right or wrong. When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" - Carl Schurz

    by RBH on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:37:35 AM PDT

    •  Mahoney may be too far right to blue-dog it (0+ / 0-)

      He was a Republican earlier this year, he's got some eccentricly right positions, he's in a VERY right district, he'll be targeted in 2008 (barely winning in '06 with "Foley" on the ballot), and he'll have to veer right to stay in office.

      The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

      by RonK Seattle on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 10:20:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  54% pro-Bush (0+ / 0-)

        in 2004, and 51% in 2000 is not a very far-right district. Voters were informed that Negron was the Republican candidate in a grossly partisan court ruling, Democrats didn't get to inform people who their candidate was at the polling pplace when their 2004 candidate in FL-22, (clay shaws district), died before the election.  Mahooney just didn't run a very good campaign, while Republicans spent a bunch of money here, and Negron ran a good campaign after bouncy start. Mahooney should have come up on air with stuff about Negron's, 'If you strongly Support George Bush, vote for me', or his demand that Foley's campaign treasury be given to him.

        Seize Every day, giving no thought for tommorrow-Horace

        by ArkDem14 on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 05:13:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Good point, thx Red, but not bright red. (0+ / 0-)

          Though 2000 was affected by Lieberman's popularity.

          Mahoney still affects some outlandishly rightish policy stances.

          The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

          by RonK Seattle on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 07:32:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'd like to know them (0+ / 0-)

            because I was not even aware that he used to be a republican.

            Seize Every day, giving no thought for tommorrow-Horace

            by ArkDem14 on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 07:38:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Crap! I posted a lengthy reply last nite (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              ArkDem14
              ... straight into the jaws of a dkos mtce outage.

              Here's a mainstream profile
              http://www.palmbeachpost.com/...

              It really takes some hard searching to find hard postion statements -- "Win the peace in Iraq" -- "Invest in community values by making pornographers pay." (Huh?)

              A self-described Fundie Xtian Reaganite (but raised "Kennedy Democrat") ... pro-life (but still pro Roe v Wade, at least in front of some audiences).

              Built up a business in Boca and offshored it to Singapore, went into "wealth management" with vFinance (co-located with his Center for Innovative Entrepreneurship, 501c3 pending).

              Mahoney caught Rahm's eye during an unsuccessful 2004 attempt at business-related influence-peddling outreach to both parties.  Rahm pursued him last year, and Maloney subsequently converted (unclear exactly when).

              He has a lot of Republican political DNA, but overall seems a good fit to his district, and malleable enough to work with the caucus. He'll probably become more of a D as time passes.

              The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

              by RonK Seattle on Tue Nov 21, 2006 at 10:05:54 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  deep south is going red (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jxg, boofdah, TomP

    See this diary about Dems switching, or making alliances with, Republicans in Alabama.  Amy Tuck was a nice pick up for Republicans in Mississippi a few years agao.  In Georgia, Zell is all you need to know. Etc....

    That said, the south is not dead and should not be abandoned.  It is definitely a long term project with little prospect of short term gains.

    A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

    by decon on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:38:22 AM PDT

  •  I doubt Browder checked the election results (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    boofdah

    before writing this tripe.

    "Intelligence and stupidity have no limits. Unfortunately it looks like stupidity has won" -Arsene Wenger

    by brownsox on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:38:24 AM PDT

  •  Blue Dogs Rejected Murtha (0+ / 0-)

    The Blue Dogs defeated Murtha and stopped Pelosi from putting him in power.

  •  And the 3 Indiana congressmen (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PanzerMensch, boofdah, WinSmith

    who are blue dogs are only blue dogs because they have to be... I've talked to two personally and both privately expressed their liberal views.

    They might be blue dogs, but when it comes to a crucial Dem vote they'll make sure the Dems get it done.

    Boris: You're a tyrant, and a dictator, and you start wars!
    Napoleon: Why is he reciting my credits?

    by B man on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:38:44 AM PDT

    •  Hmmmm....who did you talk to? (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      philgoblue, CAL11 voter, niremetal

      One, Baron Hill, helped lead the blue dogs, I believe. Joe Donnelly, who I know, is an economic populist with strong labor backing, but on social issues and the war, he is very much blue dog material. His position on Iraq was not much different from Condi Rice's. In fact, he used the same metaphor in all his public debates: as Iraqis stand up, we'll stand down, but we must win!

      Don't know much about Ellsworth but I would bet he sides with blue dogs more often than not.

      All three voted for Hoyer rather than Murtha, I believe.

      •  Ellsworth (0+ / 0-)

        Ellsworth is furthest right of the bunch ... he will be among the four or five most right-leaning Democrats in the house, anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-growth, pro-business (but not as wildly as the GOPers). I'm not sure that even a slightly liberal candidate could win there. Donnelly is the left-most of the three new ones from IN, he's really pretty progressive on core economic issues. I wold say that Donnelly fits the populist theme that is the true story of 2006. He fits somewhat with the Blue Dogs, but not so much with the DLC or the NDC.

        •  Donnelly is conservative on most issues.... (0+ / 0-)

          I would not regard him as populist. I am in his District. I think he'll join no group but if he does, it'll be the blue dogs.
          He is anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-gun and waffles on Iraq. On economic matters, he is fiscally conservative and only supports labor issues because that is where the money was for him in the beginning.
          They are all blue dogs; they voted for Hoyer and said nothing on Iraq.

    •  Also, so you say they ran on a lie??? (0+ / 0-)

      Promising to do one thing (blue dog platforms) but vote another. If you're right, we don't need more lying politicians in Congress. Sorry, but they ran on certain conservative statements and they will be held to them. All three ran on "I'm independent from Democrats" themes. They will not fall in line and do what you say.

      •  I should clarify... (0+ / 0-)

        I am saying that their personal convictions are not conservative... but they believe that they have to take a more conservative stance on some issues because that's what their constituents want...

        I have talked to Baron Hill several times in very personal settings, and he has said that he is in favor, personally, of very liberal things (e.g. gay marriage(!))...

        But Baron Hill is openly in support for universal health care, so I mean I suppose he doesn't always hide his views...

        The other politician was Brad Ellsworth, who expressed that he'd like to be more liberal than his political situation would allow him...

        But Hill made very clear that when the situation would arise that required Democratic consensus, he would proudly stand with the Democrats.

        ---

        So, I suppose I'm saying they didn't lie, they know what their constituents want, and will try to fudge that as best they can so that they can become more liberal (except fiscally, which is their one true conservative spot) gradually.  Does this make sense??

        Boris: You're a tyrant, and a dictator, and you start wars!
        Napoleon: Why is he reciting my credits?

        by B man on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:46:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  This is a topic (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    SusanG, Nightprowlkitty, TomP

    I have devoted a great time to since late 2004. And I have written much of what Schaller has said for that entire time.

    I think it is an important discussion but I do believe that Schaller needs to lower the volume decibel. The title of his book, and of course it is designed to attract attention, does seem anti-South, and Schaller is pretty aggressive in tone.

    That said, Browder is an idiot, Jerome is wrong, Kilgore disingenuous and others just not wanting to have the South lose its focus.

    The reality is the South is not the issue but rather the Dem message and its relationship to values voters. Personally, I say to those folks who want to key the South, good luck and Godspeed. Keep up the good work.

    But do not ask Dems to tailor their message pursuing the slice of the electorate least amenable to our message.

    There is good news however - Howard Dean's 50 State Strategy of devolution of power to state parties permits for regional branding without compromising the national brand.

    I a m going to post a Unified Theory of Dem Politics at Talk LEft later this week.  

    •  Well said. (3+ / 0-)

      This is the key point to me: "But do not ask Dems to tailor their message pursuing the slice of the electorate least amenable to our message."

      The blue dogs always follow up their claims of self-importance with asking Dems to do exactly that.  It's the wrong way to win, both tactically and morally.

      As Dean taught many - we should be who we really are and we will win.  

      "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

      by TomP on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:22:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm not sure, Kos (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    OLinda, boofdah, LynneK

    I'm not sure we know enough about many of the new Dems to make a judgment as to their "blue dogginess". For instance, you dismiss Ed Perlmutter's dog credentials out of hand. Have you ever met the guy? I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Ed. But he's got some fairly moderate/conservative credentials on the economic side of things (he spent his time since leaving the legislature working for a land developer). I've heard (don't know the guy) that Chris Carney in PA is quite conservative in some areas, and ditto Joe Sestak. Heard the same about Klein down in Florida. And Heath Shuler is going to be a hardcore conservative on social issues. You can bank on that (and his progressiveness on economic issues has been overplayed).

    So it depends on the issue, really. And most of all, we don't know yet how these new Dems, especially the ones in competitive or Republican districts, will react once the pressure of actual votes come up.

    •  Perlmutter (0+ / 0-)

      I was going to post a question about whether Perlmutter is more conservative, and I saw your post. Sorry to admit I don't know a lot about him - but I voted for him. I'm concerned he's going to be like Salazar to me. I say that after just saying I don't know that much about him. :|.

      Wondered what others in CO thought.

    •  Yes (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Colorado Luis

      I've met Perlmutter. And spent a great deal of time talking to him.

    •  Perlmutter and unions (0+ / 0-)

      The key to understanding Ed Perlmutter is that he is one of the most pro-union people we have in this state.  I doubt that fits the description of too many of the Blue Dogs, many of whom (like John Salazar) represent districts with few union members.

      Of course Perlmutter will talk a moderate game, that's the Democratic message to the unaffiliateds in this state.  And he will undoubtedly seem moderate to the purist faction of the Colorado Dems from time to time.  I would guess he'll sign up with the New Democrat caucus instead of the Blue Dogs or the Progressives, but the latter is also possible.

      Illegal is not a noun

      by Colorado Luis on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:22:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  There are 2 conceptions of the 50 state strategy (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    PanzerMensch, boofdah, The Raven, el cid

    and these two conceptions are played out among Kossacks on the "Whistling Past Dixie" threads.

    The beltway consultants used to "target" races by spending all the Dems' resouces on them.  So, in 10 races, they would spend $100 as: $25, $25, $25, $25, 0,0,0,0,0,0.

    Some people view the 50 state strategy as targeting everywhere equally, as in: $10, $10, $10, $10, $10, $10, $10, $10, $10, $10.

    Others view (including me) the 50 state strategy as making a fight everywhere, but targeting certain races: $15, $15, $15, $10, $10, $10, $10, $5, $5, $5.

    I encourage everyone to read Schaller's rebuttal in full.

    "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

    by New Deal democrat on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:39:16 AM PDT

    •  I think that misses the key component (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      el cid

      of the 50 State Strategy - devolution of power to the State parties.

      •  I'd definitely read your note next week (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Big Tent Democrat, TomP

        I understand your point.  My comment is with regard to how "50 state strategy" items play out here, which is along the lines I've set forth above.  And that is the subject of Kos's blog entry.

        Here's a couple more points made by Schaller in his rebuttal:

        In 2004, neither their attitudes on national defense nor abortion explained the (Republican) presidential preferences of white southerners, but their (negative) attitudes on race did....

        I never say anywhere in the book or elsewhere that westerners are "vastly" more progressive, even if Kilgore prefers I had. What I do show in the book is that, gun control aside, whites from both the Midwest and (especially) the Interior West states are, in fact, more progressive on five other "cultural" issues: gays, school prayer, abortion, affirmative action and the death penalty.

        If I understand correctly, if coastal liberal dems are prepared to compromise on gun control, dem-leaning voters from the heartland are prepared to join in a coalition to pursue the other goals.

        "When the going gets tough, the tough get 'too big to fail'."

        by New Deal democrat on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:50:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Poor Dr. Browder (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    esquimaux

    He wants so badly for the Blue Dogs to be important, he just can't help but to see it that way.
    I think it's sad.  I really do.

  •  As for the South (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    niremetal

    Winning Presidential candidates with a 'D' after their names have been more or less from the South since LBJ. I know its not saying a whole lot, and that's not to say that every Southerner Dem has won. But I think its part of the formula.

    only fools are enslaved by time and space

    by PanzerMensch on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 08:40:34 AM PDT

    •  I hear ya... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      jxg

      but both Kerry and Gore nearly won without carrying a single southern state. It would be nice if we could manage to penetrate the South on the Presidential level, but it's not crucial to victory.

      •  please understand (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        PanzerMensch

        that "nearly winning" is called "losing."

        "Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." - Voltaire

        by DrFrankLives on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:15:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  lesson to be learned from that (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        niremetal

        ...is that the South is at least partially necessary to a White House win.

        only fools are enslaved by time and space

        by PanzerMensch on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:16:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Disagree, (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jxg

          The South is so Republican now.  We can win without the Deep South.  

          The real question is, can the Republicans win without any non-southern states?

          The Rs have become such a southern, cultural values Party that they have difficulty winning outside the South, where such values do not play as well.  

          "The answer is to end our reliance on carbon-based fuels." Al Gore, 7/17/08

          by TomP on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:25:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Nope... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          jxg

          Gore carries NH, he is President.
          Kerry wins OH, he is President.

          The point is that this "We need the South to Win" stuff is simplistic. I think if we get the chance to poach some Electoral Votes from the south, that would be great, but at this point, in the short term, it's not much of a growth market. Prospects are much better out west.

          I'm all for the 50-state stragety but Southern Democrats are, for the most part, in rebuilding mode. I'm all for giving them the support they need to grow, but we can't let our national message get bogged down in attempts to pander one particular type of voter in one particular region in the country.  

          •  50 states means FIFTY states (4+ / 0-)

            not 50 states minus a few red states.

            The longer you treat Southerners as backwards imbreds, the longer they're going to keep voting that way. Get over your own prejudices.

            only fools are enslaved by time and space

            by PanzerMensch on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 09:38:35 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Cmyst, TomP

              The longer you treat Southerners as backwards imbreds

              I think that's unfair. I don't see anything in the post you're responding to that makes me think the poster sees southerners as backwards inbreds.

              I certainly don't; I'm not a southerner, but I am from a very rural area, and I certainly also get tired of the implication that rural folks and/or southerners are stupid hicks. But regardless, I don't see how you can escape the reality that in the shortterm, there are cultural things going on in the south that push a large percentage of southerners out of our reach.

              I'm all for the 50-state strategy, and I'm all for building our party in even the reddest of red states. But I think that a huge chunk of that work has to be viewed as a longterm investment; we can't win if we don't build the structures that let us get out our messages. I think in the longrun, huge chunks of the south will open up for us, probably based largely on economics rather than social issues. But for the short term -- as in, the next couple of presidential cycles -- I think we're also shooting ourselves in the foot if we put ourselves in a position where we have to win much of the south.

              At the same time, I think we've spent a long time viewing national level politics as a battle between north and south, and it has cost us much easier gains in the midwest and west -- areas that have growing electoral power, and that are shifting our direction in a great many ways.

              •  for the most part (0+ / 0-)

                ...I more or less agree.

                However, I've not been advocating winning "most" of the South. I've put forth the argument that the South is partially necessary for a Democrat to land themselves in the White House. Some people happy squeaking out a victory a month after Election Day via long drawn-out recounts in one of a handful of swing-states. I believe that such a strategy is counter to how the 50-state strategy should work. By no means am I suggesting that the 50-state strategy will win us every last state. That would be stupid. But I do believe it works towards turning the tide in our favor much more handily than the attitude I've been reading in the comments that goes along the lines of, 'oh, we can't win in the South, so we're just going to campaign in states we might win.' And writing off an entire region of the country, which I might add, is growing in population faster than the Northeast [but not as fast as the West, I'll grant you], is counterproductive to a national strategy wherein we do to the Republicans what they have done to Dems for the past 12 years.

                And that's why I floated the factoid about recent winning Dems being Southerners. I believe it falls into that strategy of putting the Republicans on the defensive in territory they might take for granted. Territory which goes right into a 50-state strategy.

                only fools are enslaved by time and space

                by PanzerMensch on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 10:33:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not sure (0+ / 0-)

                  history can guide us very much right now, honestly. I think we're going through a pretty massive political realignment. So when you say that recent winning Dems have been Southern, I have to say I think we need to take that with a grain of salt -- for one, because we don't have a whole lot of winning dem presidential candidates since the end of the '70's, and for two, because the shifts going on mean that things aren't likely to continue to play as they have for the last 50 years or so.

                  I agree with you that we should make the republicans fight everywhere. And I agree with you that we have to work in the south to change the narrative there back our direction -- that's not an impossible task. I don't think you'll find that many people here who disagree with those two statements, honestly. I think the primary source of disagreement here comes from arguments that for any presidential candidate to win, he/she has to actually win several Southern states. The problem with that argument is that the South has trended in the last 15 to 20 years away from the democratic party, and toward focus on social issues that do not work in our favor. We can and should fight in the south to change that focus -- but to pick our candidates and our national level messages in order to win the south misses the point that it's very unlikely in the short run that we're going to make many gains there. So on the national stage, we need to start looking west when we're picking our candidates and endlessly bickering over what states Candidate X can play in.

                  I think we can force the republicans to be threatened out west far more easily than we can in the south, and I think the electoral gains we can make there make it unnecessary to assume we have to win the south. That doesn't mean I don't think we should fight there for what gains we can make.

                  We agree more than we don't, I just think most of us here aren't arguing what you think we're arguing. I would never argue in favor of giving up on anywhere.

                •  Part of our problem as national Dems (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  PanzerMensch

                  is that we have given the Rs way, way too small a target to hit.  In Florida in 2000, we insisted on recounting only a couple of counties.  In 2004, things boiled down to Ohio.  We simply have to make more races competitive, all over the country, in order to make them work harder and deplete more of their resources, always vastly superior to ours.

                  Bob Corker still sucks. Now more than ever.

                  by Eleanor A on Mon Nov 20, 2006 at 12:24:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Problem is (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            ArkDem14

            that without one Southern state (and I'm including Florida, for those of you who have never been to baja Alabama) you have to have OH, MI, WI, AZ, and NM to win the Presidency.  None of those is a sure thing, and several of them have R-controlled legislatures who WILL have something to say about ballot initiatives that can bring out the mouth-breathing hard-right base, etc.

            I gotta say, it's pretty discouraging to keep seeing the South get bashed, when it was our guy - in the person of Jim Webb, who put us over the top to 51 in the Senate - not Sweetheart of the Netroots Ned Lamont.