META: To Rec and not to Rec and other great thoughts

On My Daily Kos we have a problem . . .

And it is called Space and Time.  Not enough space on the FP for all the worthwhile stuff posted here, not enough time to read it all.  Someone may work hard, spending a lot of time in research to write a work of substance that would benefit us all to read, only to see it scroll off the Recent Diaries list in an hour so two.  This is discouraging.

To solve this problem, Kos in his godly wisdom has instituted the Recommended Diaries list.  But I have noticed that the same authors tend to appear day after day on this list, leaving most of the rest to languish in obscurity and scroll rapidly away into the Darkness.  There is still a problem.  But today I realize how I, at least, could help solve it.

UPDATE:  So this Highly Unscientific Survey has produced some interesting ideas, but the concensus clearly seems to favor the status quo.  I will maintain my resolution about my own recs, but no one seems overwhelmingly enthusiastic for any of the other solutions discussed.

My own resolution is a simple one:  I will not recommend any diary that already appears on the Recommended Diaries list.  Those diaries have earned their place in the sun.  The attention of Kogs has been drawn to them once they are on the list, and I want to give other diaries a chance to move up and take their place, so those are the only ones I will recommend, instead.

My other suggestions would be for DKos Management to implement if possible - if it is technically feasible.  I propose that Kogs have only a limited number of recs to bestow in any given day.  If this were the case, they might be more selective in the diaries they choose to recommend.

Alternatively, perhaps TUs might be given a second recommending vote.

Or another alternative similar to one that I have seen some people suggest:  the site could make it possible to rate diaries rather than just rec them or not.  Since people here tend not to use intermediate ratings, they might be two:  A positive rec and a negative rec.  One negative rec would be subtracted from one positive rec for a net zero.  Of course readers could still choose not to make any rec at all.

•  i usually don't rec things already on the list

  if only because i don't have the patience to wait 20 minutes while those huge rec list diaries load. although sometimes i do.

  and if a title really catches my eye and it's something i think everyone ought to read, i'll click on the author's name and go to the story only and maybe recommend

  o/w, i really don't have a problem with the rec list. i don't read diaries on it that often --- just as i rarely read front page stories --- i'll scan them but that's about it

  i'm much more interested in what happens in all the other diaries. and i'm pretty topic specific --- stuff having to do with the environment, energy, education will always catch my attention and get my recommend

  the rec list is overrated imo. okay, so it's kind of cool, but i've always been more interested in less "mainstream" stuff

  by cookiebear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:09:39 AM PDT

  •  I think the diary rescue team

    does a great service to the community.  I check out their list every night.

    by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:18:34 AM PDT

    •  And you never know. They might be watching

      this very minute.
      

      by melvin on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:34:03 AM PDT

      •  LOL!

        Although I don't suggest this sort of diary as worthy of rescue.

        by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:36:35 AM PDT

      •  you trickster you

        naughty! ;^P

        by cookiebear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:37:07 AM PDT

  •  you forget the time dimension

    since I started recording the front page diaries I've become very aware that the amount of time a diary spends up there is quite variable.

    The only thing that keeps them on the list is continued recommendations.

    So not recommending a diary on the list you think is a good one reduces the amount of time it spends there.  You are letting some one else decide how long it lasts, vs some other diary you do like.

    This may not make any difference to you, since you seem  to avoid anything that has made it to the rec list.

    We've seen what happens if you provide a range of possible ratings: anything less than the max is seen as a mark against.  

    Limiting the number of recommends per day is something I might be interested in, but in practice it could be a disaster.  

    I agree with the current policy, which allows you to express approval, not disapproval, on diaries, and both approval and disapproval on comments, with a limit on the amount of disapproval, and the disapproval really limited only to trolling, not matters of substantial disagreement.

    by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 02:32:04 PM PDT

    •  Oh, I don't avoid the diaries on the rec list

      I just think it's a shame that some worthwhile diaries never seem to get that attention and readership.  I got started on this train of thought when Bob Johnson did a diary this morning just to urge people to rec someone else's diary on Iraq.  And it was indeed a worthwhile diary, which I might have missed otherwise.  Because while I praise the diary rescue crew, they are not infallible [as I know since they do not rescue all my own work].

      So I am caused to think:  there must be a better way.

      I've certainly noticed that when people had the range of ratings, anything less than a 4 was considered a deadly insult.  I do think it was a mistake, however, to eliminate the 1 rating, and I strongly urge its reinstatement.  I believe this would definitely cut down on the TRs if people had another way to comment negatively.

      My $.02

      by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 04:46:35 PM PDT

      •  troll rating is limited

        by the number allotted to each person.  That quiver is not ever very full.

        What I would like to see are advances that allow more people participate in "diary rescue" like activities.  Because what is diary rescue other than an available list of recommended diaries?

        If we added a "recommended" tab to each persons home page, you could see what each person recommends.  Then everyone would be their own diary rescue - you could find whose opinions you shared and could count on, and perhaps add them to a list of people whose recs you wanted to know about.

        Then, instead of only one group of "rescuers", there would be as many as there are recommending users.  And rather than seeing the results of everyone's activities reflected in only the final sum (the present recommended list), you could specialize to those whose idea of a good diary is more likely to match your own.

        by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 06:02:35 PM PDT

        •  What I would like to see

          is something like a real home page for each user, where the user could post stuff and people could post replies, or even comments.

          But I expect this would expand the size of the site by some very large exponent.

          by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 06:35:54 PM PDT

          •  not really

            but for me, that's going a bit too far.  If people want their own blog, there are plenty of places for that.

            by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 08:37:13 PM PDT

            •  I'm mostly thinking it would be nice

              to have a way to contact another Kog privately, on the site.

              by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:23:13 PM PDT

•  Although I Generally Steer Clear of Metas

  because I'm not into blogging per se, only into saving my country, I do see room for improvement with diary rec's.

  First, the fixed (or limited; FAQ doesn't seem to say) size of the list serves as a sort of "Senatorial" collection of diaries in which weak- and low-diary days are given a spacially equal footing with strong- and high-diary days.

  I could go for a more variable "House" Recommended list that would be numerically smaller at low content or low recommend times, and expanded to 10-15 or so when there are larger numbers of well recommended diaries.

  Negative recommends also seem worth considering, and I can see an argument for limiting either positive and/or negative diary recs per day.

  by Gooserock on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:10:41 AM PDT

  •  a while back

    peeder offered the best reason yet why a smite-this-diary button is a bad idea: in essence, a swarm of readers who don't like the ideas proposed in the diary could "smite" it, thus hide it

    now, i absolutely believe in smiting trolls. but when it comes to poorly conceived diaries, it does seem best to talk it rather than resort to automatic censorship

    and troll diaries? the best snark, not to mention recipes!

    by cookiebear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:15:15 AM PDT

    •  I agree

      I think the SMITE button would have to be advisory-only.

      Also, users could lose their TU status for abusing it, this would have to be clearly understood.

      As well as those who maliciously edit diary tags, she adds, having seen another such case today.

      by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:21:53 AM PDT

      •  well

        i'm guilty on the diary tag part when it comes to certain kinds of diaries

        admission: any time you see "call the waaaaahmbulance!", there's a fair likelihood it's me

        although not always

        although sometimes!

        ::guilty admission::

        by cookiebear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:23:52 AM PDT

        •  I tend to be a tag-saver crusader, myself

          by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:26:29 AM PDT

          •  a lot of people are

            Halcyon gave me a good rap on the knuckles about this some time ago

            thus: my guilt

            although i just can't control myself sometimes!! esp. on the really juicy ones.

            ::skulking away::

            by cookiebear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:30:54 AM PDT

  •  I would like a button to let me see

    the last 100 diaries.

    by mattes on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 10:35:14 AM PDT

    •  So would I

      by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 11:13:33 AM PDT

      •  heh

        that's the first thing I wrote for myself  two years ago when I started pulling all the diaries down.

        Then I ended up not using it that much.

        The provided diary scanning tools are really pretty good.  Have you tried paging through the Diary pages?  

        Have you tried using search as a scanning mechanism?  Just use sid=2006 as the query.

        by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 02:35:08 PM PDT

        •  I use the tags regularly

          and the diary rescue, and jotter's list.

          I don't know why I'm looking for more to read when I'm already spending too much time on this stuff.

          by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 02:52:02 PM PDT

          •  you're trying to find the good stuff

            right?

            by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 03:18:19 PM PDT

            •  Yeah, that's the idea

              by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 04:35:30 PM PDT

•  People use Recs like a pat on the back...

  and I'm sorry that some people are hurt when they don't get any recs.  People take this stuff too personally.

  If I have written something and a few people talk about it, that's ok with me.  I know more people read it.  That's enough.

  I don't even look at the recs on diaries I write.  Not the point for me.

  by mem from somerville on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:14:56 AM PDT

  •  i feel that way

    i don't want to be famous or catch the eye of James Wolcott (lord help me if i did) or anything else like that

    and yea, some people do. more power to them, i suppose, but it not only doesn't interest me, it kind of horrifies me

    by cookiebear on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:17:45 AM PDT

•  A limit to hostility

  no limit to applause.

  by peeder on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:16:07 AM PDT

  •  When did you...

    get so enlightened?

    by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:22:52 AM PDT

    •  Back when I recommended limits

      on troll ratings as a solution to the troll wars.

      by peeder on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:48:19 AM PDT

      •  Yeah...

        and now everybody's moaning about their inbox.

        WATB the lot of 'em.

        by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:54:19 AM PDT

  •  And of course you are one of those

    who would have to cope with the technological challenges of such changes.

    by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:23:25 AM PDT

    •  The tech isn't so much of a problem

      it's the sociological dynamics that are the challenge.

      by peeder on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:49:00 AM PDT

•  Personally, I Would Like To Be Able To Have

  a diary SMITE button (restricted to TUs only) for very obvious troll diaries. I envision this smite option to immediately bring the diary to the attention of a site administrator for review after the diary has received a negative rating by X number of TUs. If warranted, the administrator could immediately delete the diary and revoke the userID to prevent any future invasion of the site.

  by MO Blue on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:18:50 AM PDT

  •  There is merit to this idea

    by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:19:37 AM PDT

  •  Smites are rare.

    1 or 2 a month tops.  By consensus of the Front Pagers.  So sayeth kos, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

    by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:22:13 AM PDT

•  I almost never...

  (I did say almost) rec things on the list, they don't need my help and I don't want to look like I'm chasing after jotter's weekly top recommenders list (though I think he discounts for after a diary gets there).

  Speaking of jotter, I saw but cannot find a list that had the week's recced diaries with boost time (how long it took) and dwell time (how long it stayed).  It did contain a member that took 12 hours to boost as I recall.

  Rescue diaries works, I saw one last night (was it?) anyway here's a search on tags 'rescued' AND 'recommended'.

  Frankly I hardly ever looked at recced diaries before I assigned myself to 'Recommended' patrol.

  by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:19:38 AM PDT

  •  I like to look at jotter's stuff

    but I admit I'm statistics-challenged and don't entirely understand all his fields and methodology.

    by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:25:16 AM PDT

    •  Eh...

      it's like LOTR, if Gandalf gets you down call him Gary.  Ignore the stuff you don't understand and concentrate on the stuff you do.

      A lot of the things that are 'shrouded in mystery' are shrouded to prevent gaming and if you don't think it's an issue google 'digg' which a had a big controversy a few months ago (gee relative blog time is hard, seems like a year since 8 am).

      by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:34:11 AM PDT

  •  that was in a comment to a regular daily list

    I found it by searching for author=jotter front page recommended

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 02:39:23 PM PDT

  •  found another one

    I think this one was first

    http://www.dailykos.com/...

    by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 02:44:01 PM PDT

    •  This is the one I remember.

      nyceve took 20 hours.

      Thank you.

      ps. What's with the negative hours in the other list?

      by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 07:13:07 PM PDT

      •  that was another

        startup problem - moved data from a west coast server to an east coast server, and so had a 3 hour discrepancy at the join.  Maybe I'll fix that one day!

        by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 08:34:29 PM PDT

•  I see two additional alternatives

  One is to allow people to re-post a diary up to one or two more times, provided that there is some window (24 hrs, eg) between postings.  To prevent additional clogging that this might cause, re-posting fills the 1/day diary quota.  Of course, it is possible to do that now, but it is currently 1) frowned upon, and 2) impossible to do without losing the few comments that were made in the diary.  This would at least lower the chances of a scroll-off due to random effects, rather than the quality of the diary.

  A second alternative is to create an additional button on the user page called something like "my selected diary".  The user could place just one of his or her past diaries there, and that page would be understood as a diary the user would like people to come back to and post on at any time.  Not ideal, as posts would be far and few between, but far more people would see them and it would give these diaries a long-term quality that no DKos diary currently enjoys.  

  These aren't necessarily any better than your ideas.  I'm just throwing them out there as further options.

  by tipsymcstagger on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:30:50 AM PDT

  •  Further options are good

    I'm not so much arguing for any one of these proposals as trying to open discussion and brainstorming.

    by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:35:10 AM PDT

  •  Why not?

    nyceve writes about healthcare.  JR Monsterfodder writes about Walmart.  Lots of people do.  Make yourself an expert in your subject and keep at it.

    by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:36:31 AM PDT

•  Cross-post

  If you are worried about a good piece of work getting lost, I suggest cross-posting to one or two more specialized sites and relying on other networks to spread awareness of the article.

  With that being said, I think it would be good for a user's "recommendations" to be diluted if he makes a lot of them (don't know that this isn't already true).

  In the end, DKos is a very big, very general networking service. We can't rely just on DKos--we need to establish and maintain more focused networks also.

  by AdamR on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:33:10 AM PDT

  •  Places want content!

    • My Left Wing
    • Booman Tribune
    • MyDD
    • Never In Our Names

    Get an account and blog.  Diary, comment, share the love.

    Each has it's own distinct character, please read a little before you post!

    by ek hornbeck on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:44:34 AM PDT

•  How long till TU returns?

   just wonderin,  lost mine over election eve - was on the road with no laptop or wireless, no nothing.  so i didnt log on for a week.  that did it?  i will just carry on. maybe check out Q and A.

  by oceanview on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:50:52 AM PDT

  •  Wow--that's all it takes?

    It's almost like they want you to become compulsive or something...

    by theark on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:58:07 AM PDT

  •  If you find an answer, will you post it?

    I've wondered about that, myself.

    by Pager on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 10:37:43 AM PDT

    •  It's a mystery...

      wrapped in a riddle, ensconced in an enigma...

      I was gone for a week and it disppeared, came back, then disappeared again, and came back like a week later.

      by Texas Blue Dot on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 11:28:32 AM PDT

•  Diaries should not be targeted because

  they are not politically correct or uncomfortable. That could be a problem. I find the most interesting diaries very often are not on the recommended list. I suspect some people are recommended just on their name and this is very unfortunate.

  by mattes on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 09:54:06 AM PDT

•  Place in the sun

  is a concept that only works if you think of people as constant Kossacks. And most people aren't: their jobs or their home life keep them away from Daily Kos for much of the day and night. (And they have to sleep, too...)

  Under your proposal, an excellent diary that hits the recommended list at noon or two would be gone long before most folks get home from work. Likewise, one that arrives on the rec list shortly after midnight would disappear overnight if people withheld their recs since it was already on the list.

  You can withhold—or even withdraw—your recommendations as you see fit. I'll continue to recommend diaries I think are worth recommending, on the rec list or off, so the diary will be highlighted (or not, if others don't agree with me) for fellow Kossacks when they stop by.

  by sardonyx on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 10:31:05 AM PDT

  •  Agree. Some diaries deserve to stay on

    Rec list for a longer time, especially for those Kossacks who aren't on site all day long.  Though I also agree that some diaries seem to get rec'd just because of who the diarist is, and not because that particular diary is all that great (Ie. even the best diarists don't always have a good story.)    

    by FoundingFatherDAR on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 10:46:21 AM PDT

    •  To evaluate this,

      it would be necessary to know how long the recommended diaries remain on the list once they are there.

      by curmudgiana on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 11:14:52 AM PDT

      •  Have seen some stay on from the day b-4

        Ie. longer than 12 hours.  Don't know if any have stayed for more than 24 hours.

        by FoundingFatherDAR on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 12:30:36 PM PDT

    •  I've started highlighting

      front page rec'ed diaries on my daily lists.

      by jotter on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 02:47:25 PM PDT

•  Expand the rec list to 10 or

  (gasp) 12 diaries.

  I generally follow your approach, btw, but sometimes I will recommend one that's already on the list if I think it ought to stay up there longer.

  by Mehitabel9 on Wed Nov 22, 2006 at 10:39:53 AM PDT