Daily Kos

Progressives and Horizontal Contempt

Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 09:03:07 AM PDT

At the neighborhood pizza joint the other evening, I shared a table with an acquaintance I'll call Mike. I can't remember what led up to it, but Mike cued up the butt-kicked Democrats' trusty old canard:

"If it weren't for that bastard Nader, Gore would be president today!"

I find the scapegoating of Nader for Gore's presidential defeat as disturbingly common these days as it is cheap. Gore did not lose the 2000 election "because of Nader." Particularly, Gore didn't lose because of the people who voted for Nader. Go ahead, if it makes you feel better, hate Ralph Nader. At least he's a professional politician, he's braced for your invective. Call him a delusional egomaniac, and everything else. Just don't dare malign progressives and would-be progressives who acted their consciences, in tragic circumstances, and didn't elect Democrats.

The deck was stacked, voters were forced to make untenable choices, and could not win. Mike and many others may curse Nader and everyone who voted for him, but progressives lost the 2000 and 2004 federal elections because of a sick American electoral system, where the interests of big money vie with humanitarian goals, and the moneyed interests triumph. Blame that, don't blame every-day voters of conscience, in tragic circumstances, who ended up electing Republicans. Also, if you're going to hate Nader, hate him thoughtfully. Remember, the comparatively ill-funded third-party candidate articulated daring progressive reforms the grassroots takes seriously, but the big political establishment will not.

We should have a liberal president today. We don't. We look at the militarism and corruption and the pure incompetence, and we're sick at heart. What happened, why has democracy failed us?

Gore had enough money. He should have won, Bush should not be president today. But instead of running the 2000 race to beat Bush, Gore ran a "Republican Lite" campaign, in thrall to the big money, the lobbies that funded him. Gore lost, because he was out-of-touch with his constituents--the progressives and would-be progressives who cared about their retirements and their healthcare and their kids' schools--the reforms Democrats have traditionally stood for. This bloc needed to be inspired to elect Gore in a clear landslide. The efforts of dedicated volunteers notwithstanding, progressives and would-be progressives were not inspired to do any such thing. Democracy, by definition, is about voting your conscience, and those voters who could have buoyed Gore's tragically shoddy campaign, couldn't really be blamed for letting it founder. Nader and the people who voted for him, also couldn't be blamed for Gore's failure.

The question of why American democracy so often doesn't work, why it often isn't about the best interests of the people, voting their consciences, needs to be right up there with why we don't have healthcare for everyone who needs it. It needs to be drummed insistently, right along with why we have to keep sending kids to Iraq to get killed. Free and fair elections would be an excellent start, so would real campaign-finance reform. Instant-runoff voting, so people can always vote their first choices without penalty, is less talked-about, but just as essential to a healthy democracy. For any of that to happen, though, we need a big tent, with a diverse throng inside, clamoring to ask the hard questions of the establishment, to demand reform.

Phil Angelides, the recent Democratic gubernatorial candidate in my home state of California, like Gore in 2000, ran a "Republican Lite" campaign. He lost big, I knew he would. The Democrats' loss wasn't my fault, though I'm a registered Democrat and I didn't vote for Angelides. Angelides' loss also wasn't the fault of other Californians who didn't vote for him, out of conscience, who instead voted for another candidate, or who stayed home, because Angelides promised voters so little that the more-charismatic Republican incumbent Arnold Schwarzenegger wasn't also promising.

All else being equal, I suppose I would've backed Angelides, if the race with Schwarzenegger had looked close. In Florida, in 2000, I probably would have voted for Gore, without enthusiasm. In the tragic, untenable circumstances, though, I sure can't blame progressives who made the difficult choice not to vote for Democrats in close races. I defend them. I plead with other liberal Democrats to understand and defend them, too. We need them enfranchised, for the progressive movement to work in any big way.

After I revealed that I'd voted for Green Party gubernatorial candidate Peter Camejo, one Kossack blamed me explicitly for Angelides' loss. She implied I was responsible for Schwarzenegger's disastrous continued incumbency. Whooo-weee. What child of yours did I kill, lady? Your jab at me, and the fact nobody troll-rated you over it, speaks only to the injured nastiness we liberals carry in our hearts.

We should have a liberal president today. California should have a liberal governor. We don't, and we're beside ourselves. We're furious, and we're grieving.

When the Green Party does something really stupid, like taking money from the Republicans, criticize them. OK, criticize Ralph Nader. But never, ever say that the Green Party shouldn't exist; don't dare imply that it shouldn't raise issues or field candidates, or that those candidates shouldn't get votes.

Maybe it's just human nature that's driving me crazy. Maybe I'm expecting too much of the progressive movement, wanting it to unify. The Republicans, after all, have cynically built an empire on divisiveness: dear public, your problem isn't your small paycheck, your lack of healthcare, your kids dying overseas, your isolation, or the crime in your streets. Don't come together; don't try to bring the corporations to heel, don't muzzle the lobbyists. Dear voters: your real problem is single welfare mothers, it's gays who want to get married, it's the brown-skinned immigrants, it's uppity women who want abortions--it's them.  

Dear Democrats--and there are no other "true" progressives--third parties cause democracy to malfunction. Not.

Democratic, Green, or whatever, many of us wouldn't have chosen to be political progressives. The going is hard. It can feel lonely and discouraging, coming up against these vast impersonal forces that shape every life. Many of us liberals got here the hard way, for a very personal reason, or reasons. Maybe somebody we love was injured in Iraq, maybe we lack for healthcare. Maybe we have children, or want them. We'd as soon be comfortable and privileged, but life makes demands. We dissent, we beg to differ. We feel we have to. "Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me," said Martin Luther.

The going is hard, it's often discouraging. But as Luther implied, we can choose dignity.

I've written before that the penchant of liberals, at our best, for free discussion and inquiry, our appreciation of nuance and "shades of gray" in any point-of-view, is the progressive movement's crown jewel. Our essential open-mindedness is a basic way we trump the neoconservatives, who are essentially authoritarian, whose movement lends itself to divisive tactics and cynical "easy answers." That's why I want to see the question of why democracy fails honestly faced, reckoned with. We need a big, vibrant popular movement to advance our aims, and scapegoating demoralizes. It hurts all around. It benefits only the establishment that doesn't want to be challenged, that wants to keep things what they are.

Come on, we're better than the Republicans. We have to be.

Tags: Ralph Nader, Al Gore, instant runoff voting, Green Party, third party, Democrats, progressives (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 96 comments

  •  tips... (2+ / 1-)

    Recommended by:
    bolson, melvin
    Hidden by:
    RonK Seattle
  •  if you didn't see this at the time (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ed in Montana, leberquesgue, pico, karmsy

    You might want to read over the electoral politics project I did at BooManTribune over six weeks last summer.

    The project, the collaborative work of many, many BooTribbers, was an attempt to come up with some ways to address the questions you raise in a constructive manner.

    Basically, the project starts where  your diary leaves off.  Check it out.

    •  Oh, thanks "kid" (0+ / 0-)

      I always look forward to your diaries :-)

      I'm glad this problem is being addressed in a serious way.

      It sure does get under my skin to hear Nader voters scapegoated for Democrats' losses, hence this diary.

  •  Nader did put Bush Jr into office (7+ / 0-)

    so he has to take responsiblity for it.  Nader was on a pointless crusade making the claim that it didn't matter who got elected, Gore or Bush Jr.

    Reality proved Nader to be horribly wrong US and world paid a terrible price for Nader's bit of egomania.

    •  If that's your opinion, fine, (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bolson

      like you, I believe there are some reasons to resent Nader--at least to question him.

      I just hate it, though,  when voters, acting their consciences in untenable circumstances, are scapegoated for Democrats' losses. It is so unfair.

      •  No (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ed in Montana, JillR

        You certainly wouldn't want people to be accountable for their overlooking the obvious and making a stupid choice when hundreds of thousands of people have died as a result.  Take some responsibility for your actions.

      •  No it's not unfair to blame Nader... (4+ / 0-)

        or those who voted for him.

        They have to act like adults. Sorry you can't have the meth (short jolt of feel good and then psychosis of Nader), you need protein and Vitamin C (Gore) to build a healthy nation.

        Naderites are irresponsible and nothing makes this point more clearly than 2000 and the difference between Bush Jr and Gore.

        You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you can get what you need.

        Naderites didn't try. They defeated themselves on every single issue Nader claimed was important.  There was no logic, no accountability for their actions in 2000.

      •  "Untenable"?! Bush Jr vs Gore was Good vs. Evil (0+ / 0-)

        and Naderites voted for evil to win.

        What was "untenable" about Naderites position?  They could stroke Nader's ego or vote for the uber environmentalist US was ever going to have as Pres. at key moment of US/world history...or vote for Bush (the destroyr) Jr.

        The only thing that is "untenable" is Naderites choice.

        •  What was untenable was the position (0+ / 0-)

          voters and would-be voters found themselves in.

          Here we had a major progressive (Democratic) candidate who wasn't reaching out to his base, who didn't attract the landslide he would have needed to win. We had an evil Republican candidate, and we had this abrasive, maybe misguided, Green Party candidate, who, nevertheless, articulated real progressive reforms the Democratic contender wouldn't take seriously.

          •  "Untenable" describes Naderite excuses... (0+ / 0-)

            nothing else. There was no "untenable" position for Naderites. They knew it was a close election. They chose to do what felt good vs. what was right.

            There is never a "perfect" candiate.

            Nader was a wasted boutique vote. It was not a question of any good coming out of the vote.  No message was sent or delivered.  

            Nader's claim was no difference between Bush Jr and Gore and that has been proven wrong in the harshest terms.

            If Naderites had the good grace to simply say they made a terrible mistake, at least that has some redemptive qualities but to hear them try and justify the evil they let loose on the world in an act of pointless ego satisfaction...now that is untenable.

          •  Who do you call "his base"? (0+ / 0-)

            The far-left? That was never his base. If it had been he wouldn't have got close to the nomination let alone winning the general election.

            But what you call "reaching out" is simply mindlessly approving everything that idiot Nader was proposing, regardless of the fact that 90% of Americans oppose those things.

            And you have the face to claim that had Gore been even more liberal than he was he somehow would have won easily. Gore didn't get a smaller share of the Dem vote than Clinton got in 1996.
            The difference was actually in the Rep vote.
            Clinton got 13% of it in 1996 Gore got only 8% of it. But you say that Gore could have got that vote by shifting to the left. Hello?

            real progressive reforms

            He didn't articulate any kind of reform but a bunch of far-left fantasies which had zero chance to get enough support from the public and the Congress to make any difference.

      •  It had nothing to do with conscience. (0+ / 0-)

        But stupidity.

        Anyone who believed that Gore was Republican Lite
        and  health care or education or anything would have been the same under a President Gore as under a President Bush was STUPID.

        You know what that word means?
        Apparently not.

    •  In an election that close... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      varro, karmsy

      ...there's a hundred different things which, had they been but a bit different, would have turned the result.  Why ignore the other 99, and pick only that one?  There was, as I recall it, another egomaniac called Katherine Harris who mixed it up more than a little bit, too.  

      There were those screwy Palm Beach ballots that erroneously came up with c. 18k votes for Pat Buchanan that should have been for Gore.  Why not blame Pat Buchanan?  If he - arguably an egomaniac, too - hadn't run, then the result might well have been different, too.

      It's really a shame that Cheney didn't have that heart attack a couple of weeks before the election, rather than after it.

      And so on.  

      If things had been run properly, Gore would have won, whether Nader ran or not.  (Or Buchanan either, for that matter.)

      John McCain voted against health care for kids.

      by Land of Enchantment on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:02:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I would say.... (0+ / 0-)

      ...that there's a dime's worth of difference between Gore (or Kerry) and Nader, and a much, much bigger gulf between the Blues and Reds than between the Blues and Greens.

      A Green candidate can be a good alternative if there's a weak or no R in the race, or if there's a corrupt, sell-out D (Jefferson, Joe Biden, Lieberman) in office.  But voting for a Green because the Dem is only 95% in agreement with you is idiocy.

      9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

      by varro on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 04:18:35 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  DailyKos (0+ / 0-)

    is not a progressive website.  It is a Democratic website, aimed at electing Democrats.  The Greens are a different political party, just like the Republicans are.  

    By the way, with 650,000 dead Iraqis, I'll blame Nader and the fucking Greens if I feel like it.   Go rationalize the meaning of "a dime's worth of difference" somewhere else.  

    •  Mia (0+ / 0-)

      I respect your feelings, but boiling down my position to a justification of  "a dime's worth of difference" philosophy of the Greens isn't fair--and I think you know it.

      Don't you want to get to the bottom of the 650,000 Iraqis? To do more than blame the wrong people?

      •  Again, take some responsibility (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ed in Montana, Nina Katarina

        If people hadn't been really stupid and voted for Nader in 2000, the Iraq war would never have happened.  A lot of people are dead because some people selfishly "voted their conscience" for a spolier candidate.  This diary is just another in the long line of Green/Nader apologists trying to blame someone else for the blood on their hands.  

    •  You blame Nader alone? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      bolson, karmsy

      Katherine Harris is off the hook for all the counting BS after Election Day?  Those screwy Palm Beach ballots?  How about Florida laws which systematically over many years have made relatively small crimes committed by blacks felonies, while larger crimes more typically committed by whites are not?  How about distant, hard-to-get to voting locations in poor rural black areas?  So that a systematic built-in bias exists to cut more blacks off from voting?  How about that voter roll purge?  (Katherine Harris again, but also Jeb Bush?)  You have no problem with any of that?  It's all fine, but let's build a time machine to bring a lynch mob back to kill Nader?

      The truth is that if things had been run properly, Gore would have won whether Nader was on the ballot or not.  I don't get the "blame Nader" thing at all.

      John McCain voted against health care for kids.

      by Land of Enchantment on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:08:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not alone (0+ / 0-)

        There were a lot of things that caused or contributed to Gore's loss.  Nader was just one of them.  

        Just because Nader wasn't solely responsible doesn't mean that Nader isn't a corrupt and dishonest piece of shit. Nader ran a campaign of lies and did everything in his power to help elect Republicans.  Most people have realized what an asshole he is, but for some reason his name keeps popping up.  

        •  "Corrupt and dishonest piece of shit"? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          bolson, karmsy

          The man was misguided, I think.  But every single person who runs for President, IMHO, has "ego problems", so that doesn't count for anything much.

          Nader has done more concrete and lasting good in his life than you could ever dream of doing yourself, I'm quite sure.  Nader's run was tragic, in its own way.  I don't agree that his goal was to elect Republicans.  But perhaps you have special insight into his inner thoughts and motivations that others done have.  I rather doubt it, but maybe so.

          Whether or not that's so, you go on and on about him, while apparently having zero problem with anything else.  (Going by what you say.)  If the election had been run properly, Gore would have won Florida, whether Nader was on the ballot or not.

          For whatever reason, passionately despising Nader is very important to you.  Having your identity tied with with that hatefulness is your prerogative.  It's unwise, IMHO, but it's your life to do with as you wish.  You want to dedicate it broadcasting your hate of Nader to the world, good luck with that.  In it's own small way, that's tragic too.  One would hope you could find something more constructive to do.  I can see the gravestone epitaph now:

          She hated Ralph Nader more than anybody else did

          Good luck with that.

          John McCain voted against health care for kids.

          by Land of Enchantment on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:28:36 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Land of Enchantment (0+ / 0-)

            I couldn't have put down dear Mia better myself. Thank you :-)

          •  Nader (0+ / 0-)

            How do I know that was Nader's motivation?  Because Nader said he would rather Bush win than Gore.  Because Nader gladly accepted Republican funding.  Because Nader's whole campaign was focused on lying about Gore.  If you would open your eyes and stop drinking the Nader kool-aid, this would be obvious to you too.

            •  Mia (0+ / 0-)

              You have a fair point about Nader. I disagree with a lot of your tactics, I've (almost:-) quit reading you, but you have an absolutely fair point that Nader showed divisive behavior. For that, I'd criticize and resent him.

              But alleging that Land of Enchantment is "drinking Nader kool-aid," because, apparently, he wouldn't blame Nader, alone, for the fact we have a Republican president today?

              Get real.

              •  I don't blame Nader alone (0+ / 0-)

                My point is simply that he is an evil man.  There is a special place in hell waiting for him and Katherine Harris (hopefully together).  

                •  Nader is not without sin... (0+ / 0-)

                  maybe fairly serious sins...but sending him to hell with Katherine Harris?

                  •  Ok (0+ / 0-)

                    I'll grant you that maybe even Nader does not deserve that fate.  

                    •  There's one American problem to which I see (0+ / 0-)

                      only one good solution, and it's healthcare. I'm big on free discussion--including dissent--but I get pretty black-and-white in my thinking here.

                      Other wealthy industrialized countries eschew private for-profit health insurance, and instead have a single publicly accountable government agency funding all healthcare. Guess what? They do so much better than the U.S. at curbing healthcare costs, and they don't have our shocking health outcomes, with so many people just dying because they can't afford to see the doctor.

                      Why am I bringing this up? It has to do with the "Republican Lite" characterstics of many--not all--Democratic campaigns. I may be mistaken, but I don't think Gore ever championed single-payer healthcare--a good, workable healthcare solution that's already been well-tested in other rich countries. He absolutely should have, if he wanted to win. Nader, on the other hand, DID champion single-payer healthcare; so did Peter Camejo, the Democratic gubernatorial candidate here in California.

                      We can question Nader's personal motivations, or a lot about his approach, but we can't dispute that he did articulate bold progressive reforms the major candidates simply wouldn't take seriously.

                      •  Response (1+ / 0-)

                        Recommended by:
                        varro

                        Why am I bringing this up? It has to do with the "Republican Lite" characterstics of many--not all--Democratic campaigns. I may be mistaken, but I don't think Gore ever championed single-payer healthcare--a good, workable healthcare solution that's already been well-tested in other rich countries. He absolutely should have, if he wanted to win. Nader, on the other hand, DID champion single-payer healthcare; so did Peter Camejo, the Democratic gubernatorial candidate here in California.

                        Gore said this, if you've read my painstakingly prepare comments above:

                        At a time of almost unimaginable medical breakthroughs, we will fight for affordable health care for all, so patients end ordinary people are not left powerless and broke. We will move toward universal health coverage, step by step, starting with all children.

                        In case you don't know, Gore called for single payer UHC in November of 2002:

                        "I was planning to wait and make a major speech on this and I probably should, but I'll just answer your question candidly," Gore told the moderator.

                        Gore's comments Wednesday night were first reported by ABC News' Internet political report "The Note" and were confirmed by Gore spokesman Jano Cabrera, who said any details would come in a future speech on health care.

                        "I think we've reached a point where the entire health care system is in impending crisis," Gore said. "I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that we should begin drafting a single-payer national health insurance plan."

                        Here is your reality check for you and Gore (probably he used the word "reluntantly": the healthcare industry is in the 1.5-2 trillion dollar per annum range. To place that in perspective, the national GDP is in the 10-11 trillion range, and the federal budget is around 2 trillion (2.5 if you add up Bush's borrow and spend bullshit). Any realist will know from this that you can't snap your fingers and usher in universal healthcare coverage. It will, by the force of reality, have to be done in stages.

                        Yes, Gore only called for working towards UHC in 2000. The times were actually different then; we were dealing with record surpluses (which Clinton and Gore were instrumental in spurring) with a lot of prosperity to go around. Even two years later the pictur was quite different, and more acutely now, we are racing to the bottom and scraping it, and as a result, 50 million stand uninsured.

                        Yes, we want a plan, but that will be a long term plan.

                        Nader can promise everything under the sun, but I can guarantee you that his numbers would not have added up to anything feasible in the real world. Falling for those empty promises was your fault, not Gore's.

                        Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

                        by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:06:30 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I predict... (1+ / 0-)

                          Recommended by:
                          NeuvoLiberal

                          ...that universal health care will come about when an unimpeachable advocate gets a bully pulpit to trumpet it, squelch PhRMA and K Street lobbyists, and commission a true study of health care expenses to the American people.

                          And it's not going to be Ralph Nader, or any Green, for that matter.

                          I predict it may very well be John Kitzhaber, doctor and former governor of Oregon, if he's appointed Surgeon General by a Dem in 2009.  He's already spearheading the Archimedes project, a coalition looking for health care solutions, and is likely to be able to bring together doctors, patients, and the business community to devise some sort of solution to rampantly rising insurance costs.

                          9-11 changed everything? Well, Katrina changed it back.

                          by varro on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 04:28:44 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Neuvo (0+ / 0-)

                          You know, in 2000, Gore didn't even carry his home state of Tennessee. Pretty embarrassing, and it's no fair blaming me or any other voter for that, Neuvo. Gore was a mainstream progressive candidate, he was supposed to be standing for the people, for their need for universal healthcare--and yet the votes he needed to pick up to win in a clear landslide, he didn't. The voters weren't fooled. They stayed home, or they voted for other candidates, and that's precisely why Gore was vulnerable to evil Republican electoral shenanigans in Florida.

                          Sorry I missed that Gore quote in your earlier post. It's good that he reluctantly championed single-payer, apparently, in a single statement. With all the Americans dying every day because they can't afford to see the doctor, why wasn't this issue center-front of Gore's campaign?

                          For his personal abrasiveness and his divisive tactics, for his misguided persistence, Nader did make single-payer healthcare the center-front of his campaign. Again, this is an actual, workable healthcare solution, much- tested in other wealthy countries--if you and I disagree on a lot else, it seems we agree there.

                          Ah, politicians and their sweet platitudes about "universal healthcare," so lacking in specifics. Makes me think of the old saying, "the devil can quote scripture." Don't know where you are, Neuvo, but in my home state of California, incumbent Republican governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has won re-election, in part, by spouting charming German-accented platitudes about "universal healthcare." With no specifics as to how it will be enacted, of course. Problem is, bastard went and vetoed SB 840, Sheila Kuehl's bill for single-payer healthcare in September. So as somebody who will actually reform Californians' healthcare, what credibility does Ahnie-Baby have?

                          Angelides, our Democratic gubernatorial candidate, didn't say much more than Schwarzenegger about healthcare. He didn't support SB 840. Angelides also wasn't as sexy as Schwarzenegger, and didn't have a cute accent--if that's to your taste--so on election day, Angelides went down by a double-digit margin--i.e., flat on his ass.  

                          We're stuck with a Repubican governor for the next several years, and again, it's no fair blaming voters.

  •  I disagree with ... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ed in Montana, varro, pico

    ... your characterization of Al Gore's campaign as "Republican-lite" and feel it is as unfair a charactererization as you feel it is unfair to demonize those who voted for Nader.

    I do think Nader was wrong to have run in 2000 and I think that what was most wrong was his assertion that there was no difference between the candidates.

    I don't demonize Nader voters or think they and Nader are the reason we have the mess we have today in America.  But I do think that both Nader and those who voted for him were wrong.  It's not a matter of voting one's conscience, imo.  It was very much a matter of seeing the political reality at the time and dealing with it as such.

    •  When push comes to shove (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      pico

      as I said in the diary, I'd likely have voted for Gore in Florida in 2000, so, to a certain extent, I agree with you.

      If Gore didn't run what was basically an unoriginal, "Republican Lite" campaign, with all his resources and particularly his $$$$$$ why, oh, why did he lose? As a Democrat, he was supposed to stand for healthcare for all, and not getting into unnecessary wars, and all those things people care about. He just couldn't take any leadership on any of it, and I believe it's because his hands were basically tied by lobbyists.  He was corrupted. We have to start there.

      •  I'm not going to ... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        pico

        ... rehash Gore campaign with you.  Sure, Gore made mistakes in his campaign, the biggest one, imo, not sticking with Clinton after the impeachment scandals.  To call those mistakes "Republican lite" is unfair.  So I stand by my original comment -- when you can stop mischaracterizing Gore then I'll give you a lot more credibility in your plea to stop demonizing those who voted for Nader.

        •  No, Gore had to separate himself from Clinton (0+ / 0-)

          if he wanted to win.

          Clinton Fatigue
          Unhappiness with Clinton on a personal level continues unabated, and it’s a serious drag on Gore. Nearly half the public thinks Gore is “too close to Clinton to provide the fresh start the country needs,” essentially unchanged in the last year. Fewer express concern about Bush’s connection to the administration of his father, former President Bush.

          The Fatigue Factor
            Agree Disagree
          Gore too close to Clinton 47% 50%
          Bush too close to father’s admin. 37% 61%

          The Tale of Two Clintons clearly continues: 61 percent of registered voters have a favorable impression of Clinton’s policies, but only 34 percent think favorably of him as a person.
          People who dislike Clinton’s policies are a natural support group for Bush, and indeed they support him overwhelmingly. In turn, those who like Clinton’s policies should be a natural Gore group — but it doesn’t quite work out that way.
          People who like Clinton’s policies and like Clinton personally — 29 percent of registered voters — are a strong Gore group. But people who like Clinton’s policies but dislike him personally — 28 percent of voters — split evenly between Gore and Bush. Gore needs to win that group.

          http://www.abcnews.go.com/...

          One of Gore's supposed advantages -- being the heir apparent of a popular president -- may actually be working against him. Fifty-two percent of all Americans say they are less likely to vote for Gore if President Bill Clinton actively supports him and campaigns for him.

          http://www.cnn.com/...

          Clinton Fatigue Undermines Gore Poll Standing

          Personal image problems and fallout from Clinton administration scandals are contributing to Al Gore's declining favorability ratings and his poor showing in early horse race polls. As the vice president has inched closer to the Democratic presidential nomination, his favorability ratings have fallen and he has slipped further behind GOP frontrunner George W. Bush in the horse race polls.

          http://people-press.org/...

          Clinton fatigue, however, was real enough.
          A February, 2000 ABC news poll found that 51% were tired of President Clinton, 49% thought Mr. Gore too close to him and 48% felt the country needed a new direction. Combining these items as an index and using multiple regression analysis, the strongest predictors of the likely vote were the candidates’ favorability ratings.

          However, after controlling for favorability and party identification, Clinton fatigue again emerged as a key predictor of the vote. Its impact went significantly above and beyond political
          predisposition and views of the candidates.  
          A further indication of its significance is found in
          a special analysis of Gallup poll results
          among likely voters in January, and again in
          February-March. That analysis suggested that the "Clinton fatigue factor" might indeed be significantly hurting Gore's campaign, and that the net effect might be about 8 percentage points in the difference between Gore's and Bush's support.

          And finally, Ted Koppel in a Nightline  interview with George W. Bush reported that fifty-percent of those polled by ABC said that Mr.Gore was too close to President Clinton to provide the country with the fresh start that it needs.
          ...
          In 1996 Bob Dole plaintively asked, “Where’s the outrage?” It is now possible to provide one
          possible answer: Among Democratic loyalists, Clinton’s behavior elicited either a yawn, a wink
          or an averted gaze. Among Republican loyalists, it was transmuted into personal distaste.

          Among “independents” Clinton, and by implication his chosen successor, Al Gore, were in some trouble.

          Political Leadership in a Divided Electorate:
          Assessing Character Issues in the 2000 Presidential Campaign
          By Stanley Renshon
          Shorenstein Fellow, Spring 2000
          Professor of Political Science, City University of New York

          http://search.harvard.edu:8765/...

      •  One other thing. (3+ / 0-)

        I think Crashing the Gate shows far better than I can why the 2000 election was so close.  The Repubs had a better machine by far than we did.  There were huge structural problems in our GOTV and other electoral strategies that caused this problem.  Your notion is simplistic and, I believe, inaccurate.

      •  You rewrite history. (0+ / 0-)

        Gore sent half as much money as Bush.
        And much of that money had to go to states which otherwise voted Democratic in previous elections but now were in danger thanks to Nader's effort to pain Gore as the lesser of two evils.

        Your claim that Gore was a Republican Lite is a big fat bullshit. He and Bush couldn't have been more different whether it was about national security or social security or taxes or the environment.

        Just because you failed to research their agendas and backgrounds and record doesn't mean that Gore was similar to Bush. Gore is not responsible for your ignorance.

        And the idea that if Gore had been even more liberal he would have won easily is a joke in a country where only about 25% of people identify themselves as liberal.

  •  Gore lost the 2000 election (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    bolson, karmsy

    for a number of reasons, perhaps the most important of which was the desire of Americans to pay lower taxes.  So I don't know that the ground had been laid at that point for a progressive renaissance.  Still, I don't blame the Nader voters.  A lot of them probably wouldn't have voted at all if he or someone like him wasn't on the ticket.  There was probably a large enough number of people who voted Nader instead of Gore to cost Gore the election, but, while their insistence on the identical nature of the Big Two was never close to true, they couldn't have known just how badly the miscalculation would prove to turn out.  I'm sympathetic to people who vote their consciences; my only request is that they acknowledge the stakes, which means conceding the fact that, had Nader not run, or had no one voted for him, there would be close to 3000 Americans and an untold number of Iraqis who would be alive today instead of dead.

  •  How many? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    karmsy

    How many votes did Nader pull in Florida?

  •  You said "Nader" (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    jxg, karmsy

    and didn't accompany it with expletives. That gets some people angry, like this thread last night.

    And yeah, Angiledes was the most dissapointingly weak campaign since Gore 2000.

    Some TU must have tagged this "troll diary" which is terribly unfair. Who's the troll? The one who tries to write reasonably and engage in dialogue or the one who labels dissenters "troll"?

  •  Gore would have won by 25 K votes in FL (4+ / 0-)

    Gore would have won by 25 K votes in FL had Nader not run in 2000 (this comes from extending the nationwide vote split of Nader voters to Florida), and probably won NH as well.

    That adresses your claim: Gore did not lose the 2000 election "because of Nader."

    No, Nader was not the only reason. In an election that came as close as 198 votes (when the supreme court ruling stopped FLSC ordered recount), but he made it hard for Gore in the final stretch to go on the offensive.

    More to follow.

    Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

    by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 09:41:26 AM PDT

    •  As promised (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Nina Katarina, MadEye, Mia Dolan, karmsy

      Gore had enough money.

      Gore was short on money compared to Bush. Way short. He had $130 million vs Bush's $190 mn.

      Gore ran a "Republican Lite" campaign

      Don't bullshit, man. Show me exactly what in Gore's Convention speech qualifies for Republican-lite.

      Al Gore's Convention Speech

      For almost eight years now, I've been the partner of a leader who moved us out of the valley of recession and into the longest period of prosperity in American history. I say to you tonight, millions of Americans will live better lives for a long time to come because of the job that's been done by President Bill Clinton

      Instead of the biggest deficits in history, we now have the biggest surpluses, the highest home ownership ever, the lowest inflation in a generation, and instead of losing jobs, we now have 22 million good new jobs, higher family incomes.

      ...

      But now we turn the page and write a new chapter. And that's what I want to speak about tonight. This election is not an award for past performance. I'm not asking you to vote for me on the basis of the economy we have. Tonight I ask for your support on the basis of the better, fairer, more prosperous America we can build together.

      Together, let's make sure that our prosperity enriches not just the few, but all working families. Let's invest in health care, education, a secure retirement and middle-class tax cuts.

      I'm happy that the stock market has boomed and so many businesses and new enterprises have done well. This country is richer and stronger. But my focus is on working families, people trying to make house payments and car payments, working overtime to save for college and do right by their kids.

      ...

      GORE: There's one other word that we've heard a lot of in this campaign, and that word is "honor." To me, honor is not just a word, but an obligation. And you have my word: We will honor hard work by raising the minimum wage so that work always pays more than welfare.

      ...

      And what are those changes? At a time when most Americans will live to know even their great grandchildren, we will save and strengthen Social Security and Medicare, not only for this generation but for generations to come. At a time of almost unimaginable medical breakthroughs, we will fight for affordable health care for all, so patients end ordinary people are not left powerless and broke. We will move toward universal health coverage, step by step, starting with all children.

      ...

      GORE: All of this -- all of this is the change we wish to see in America. Not so long ago, a balanced budget seemed impossible. Now our budget surpluses make it possible to give a full range of targeted tax cuts to working families; not just to help you save for college, but to pay for health insurance and child care, to reform the estate tax so people can pass on a small business or a family farm, and to end the marriage penalty the right way, the fair way...

      ...

      On the issue of the environment, I've never given up. I've never backed down and I never will.

      And I say it again tonight: We must reverse the silent rising tide of global warming, and we can.

      ...

      In the Senate and as the vice president, I fought for welfare reform. Over and over again I talked to folks who told me how they were trapped in the old welfare system. I saw what it did to families. So I fought to end welfare as we then knew it, to help those in trouble but to insist on work and responsibility.

      Others talked about welfare reform. We actually reformed welfare and set time limits. Instead of handouts, we gave people training to go from welfare to work. And we have cut the welfare rolls in half and moved millions into good jobs.

      ...

      But I say to you: It must be fair trade. We must get standards, we must set standards to end child labor to prevent the exploitation of workers, and the poisoning of the environment.

      (picture from the 2004 Dem convention)

      in thrall to the big money, the lobbies that funded him

      More BS. Didn't you just say "he had enough money", tacitly implying that money is needed to win national elections, especially when the other side raises 190 million of their own money to attack you day and night. Now, thanks to the Dean'04 movement and the netroots, there is a new way of raising money, but that happened in 2004, which came 4 years and newer technology/web development AFTER 2000.

      Gore lost, because he was out-of-touch with his constituents

      Nope. It happened as it did because a small portion of his constituents were ill-informed, some were arrogant enough not to examine the facts closely, and many were misled by Nader'00 and some (not all) of his unscrupulous backer.

      the progressives and would-be progressives who cared about their retirements

      Gore was your best hope. Remember "lock box"? Remember record surpluses from the Clinton/Gore administration?

      and their healthcare and their kids' schools

      Read the damn convention speech.

      the reforms Democrats have traditionally stood for.

      Gore was going to be the reform Democrat. You weren't listening.

      This bloc needed to be inspired to elect Gore in a clear landslide.

      Had you paid attention, you would have been "inspired."

      Gore's tragically shoddy campaign

      Again BS.

      The 2000: The short story

      Clinton had a BJ, lied, got impeached, made Gore pay the price with double-digit deficits, media screwed democracy over, Nader lied/mischaracterized and allowed himseld to be used as a GOP-pawn and forced Gore to write-off south in the final weeks.

      Still Gore won the popular vote, and won Florida, fought for 35 days to get all the votes counted, withdrew in disagreement when no recourse was left following the supreme court verdict and the DNC chairman called on him to concede, and nearly 80% of Americans wanted Gore to concede should the Supreme Court rule against him.

      Making up double-digit deficits and winnning the popular vote, is "shoddy" only to spinners and liars.

      Nader and the people who voted for him, also couldn't be blamed for Gore's failure.

      Nader should be blamed for mischaracterizing Gore.

      On the 2000 election:

      1. Election 2000 overview, 11/02/2000, By Stuart Rothenberg/CNN.
      1. Gore won Florida: democrats.com analysis.
      1. Gore was not a weak candidate in 2000, by Infornific, Thu Jan 26, 2006.
      1. 2000 election: A summary, by NeuvoLiberal, Aug 18, 2006.
      1. Unfavorite son

        , by Jake Tapper, May 30, 2000 (on the dynamic in TN in 2000)
      1. Bush camp displaying 'tempered' confidence, By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff, 10/24/2000 (a window into the final weeks of the race)
      1. On the 'Nader factor' in the 2000 election, by NeuvoLiberal, Oct 26, 2006

      Bottomline: you were reading the wrong bible... with your ears shut.

      You still fail to acknowlegde you were mistaken, and that I do blame you for.

      Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

      by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 10:09:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  To the diarist: Once you get your facts straight, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mia Dolan

        Once you get your facts straight, stop spinning and making false justifications of your ill-thought out vote in 2000, then, I would be only glad to extend a handshake of friendship, comeraderie and potential partnership. It isn't feasible until then.

        Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

        by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 10:15:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  NeuvoLiberal: My ill-thought-out vote in 2000? (0+ / 0-)

          I don't think you read my diary carefully. I said I probably would have voted for Gore in Florida in 2000. There were other conscientious positions, is my only point. We suspected it was going to be close; we just didn't know it would be quite close enough for a few votes of conscience to upset a progressive lead.

          Asking why, in our Democracy, we don't have democratic elections, eh, how am I spinning?

          And my question about the Gore campaign, for all the information you provided about it remains: why, oh, why did the Democrat lose? Republican hijinks don't cover it, nor does the shortfall in funding. Gore lost because he did not reach out adequately to progressives and would-be progressive voters. He didn't convince them he had their best interests, he didn't inspire them.  For that, I hold him responsible.

          Interesting, my position isn't so far  different from that of Kos, as I understand it. It comes down to whether the progressive bloc needs to be reinvigorated from within the Democratic party--by first shaking up the Democratic establishment--or whether non-Democratic progressives can also lend a voice.

          •  Republican hijinx do cover it. (0+ / 0-)

            One simple thing, aborting of the Katherine Harris/Jeb Bush Florida voter roll purge would have reversed the result.  Maybe it's a differing opionion over what hijinx means.  In my book, that was one of many instances of Republican hijinx that affected the election result.  Any one of which was plenty enough to have left Gore coming out on top in Florida 2000.

            John McCain voted against health care for kids.

            by Land of Enchantment on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:17:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  We agree (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              NeuvoLiberal

              Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris are just as bad and just as responsible as Ralph Nader.

            •  Land of Enchantment (0+ / 0-)

              I don't like Harris and Jeb Bush any better than you do; they're criminals.

              If Gore had won by the landslide a major progressive candidate, in the circumstances, clearly warranted, their meddling wouldn't really have mattered, would it?

              •  How can you sit here are suggest (0+ / 0-)

                that Gore could've/should've won by a "landslide" when you yourself didn't support or vote for Gore? That's hyprocrisy of the tallest order.

                Do you want to know the truth?

                This is the truth: Gore started with these double digit deficits:

                Gallup/CNN/USA Today Poll

                			Gore	Bush
                	12/20-21/99	42	53 
                	12/9-12/99	42	55 
                	11/18-21/99	40	56 
                	11/4-7/99	40	55 
                	10/21-24/99	43	52 
                	10/8-10/99	40	56 
                	9/10-14/99	39	56 
                	9/10-14/99	40	56 
                	8/16-18/99	41	55 
                	7/16-18/99	38	55 
                	6/25-27/99	41	56 
                	6/4-5/99	40	56 
                	5/23-24/99	40	54 
                	4/30 - 5/2/99	40	56 
                	4/13-14/99	38	59 
                	3/12-14/99	41	56 
                	1/8-10/99	47	48 
                	5/8-10/98	46	50 
                

                Why? Clinton's BJ, impeachment, and fatigue, of course. It continued that way because of media spins and smears, and Nader coming from the left field to attack Gore (along the same lines that you have in yoru diary, again). Please see the links in the "short story" blockquote in my long response above).

                How the hell can one expect "landslide" when trailing by double digits (unles something phenomenal is done)?

                Accountablity moment for Nader'00:

                   NPR 2000 coverage

                   Campaign Protests (14.4 | 28.8)
                   Morning Edition, August 31, 2000
                   NPR's Anthony Brooks reports from Seattle on the campaign trail, where protests and counterprotests by supporters of Democrat Al Gore and Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader are overshadowing Gore's efforts to emphasize his health care policy.

                   All Things Considered, October 23, 2000
                   Vice President Al Gore began his kitchen table tour today, having breakfast with a small business owner and her 14-month-old son in Portland, Oregon. Gore is in the Pacific Northwest to stress his stand on the environment and consumer issues. He's hoping to head off defections to the Green Party campaign of Ralph Nader. Polls show both Oregon and Washington close enough for Nader's vote to make Republican nominee George W. Bush the winner. Linda Wertheimer talks to NPR's Andy Bowers.

                   All Things Considered, October 27, 2000
                   NPR's Robert Siegel reports from Madison, Wisconsin on efforts by Al Gore and Ralph Nader to woo the same left-wing voters. Wisconsin has been solidly Democratic in the last three presidential races. But there, as in a handful of other states, the three-to-five-percent of the vote that polls show Nader may win could be enough to give George Bush a victory. Siegel talks to people in both the Gore and Nader camps, as well as Democratic voters who turned out to hear Al Gore yesterday and Nader supporters who turned out to protest Gore's appearance.

                   THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: THE GREEN PARTY; Republican Ads Use Nader's Comments in Bid to Hurt Gore

                   October 28, 2000, Saturday
                   By MICHAEL COOPER WITH RICHARD PEREZ-PENA (NYT); National Desk
                   Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 13, Column 3, 826 words

                   DISPLAYING FIRST 50 OF 826 WORDS -Hoping to siphon votes from Vice President Al Gore, Republicans in three closely contested states prepared to broadcast a television commercial featuring Ralph Nader, as the candidate himself campaigned here tonight and continued to aim his sharpest barbs at the Democratic ticket. Speaking to a capacity crowd at Iowa...

                Bush camp displaying 'tempered' confidence

                Cites gains with women, sees obstacles for Gore

                By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff, 10/24/2000

                Instead, the Bush campaign finds comfort in a quartet of less-noticed trends: Bush continues to show increasing strength among women, erasing some of the gender gap with Gore. Green Party nominee Ralph Nader is hurting the vice president in some key states. Gore is spending increasing time and money in a defensive posture, campaigning in states he had hoped to sew up long ago. And, Gore has written off much of the South.

                Yesterday, in what may be partly an effort to unnerve Gore, the Bush campaign for the first time began spending heavily on television ads in Tennessee, Gore's home state, and in Minnesota, usually a reliably Democratic bastion. Gore, meanwhile, spent yesterday campaigning in Oregon and Washington, where Nader is taking votes away in a traditionally Democratic region.

                Clinton, Nader, Media all hurt Gore badly, with their faults, dishonesties and lack of due diligence.

                That you continue to blame Gore (who did pull from double whopping digit deficits to win in the end) is outlandish.

                Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

                by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:53:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not to mention (0+ / 0-)

                  Jeb Bush, Tom Delay and his goons, Katherine Harris, the supreme court, the list of people that kept Gore from being sworn-in is VERY long.

                  Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

                  by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:58:19 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Bad aim, Neuvo (0+ / 0-)

                  Rather than bashing individual voters for Gore's defeat, why not spew your venom at a well-funded and complacent Democratic machine that hasn't fielded viable presidential candidates for two--TWO--election cycles, 2000 and 2004?

                  The biased MSM, the Republican hijinks, the third-party badmouthing, and whatever else, don't explain Gore's and Kerry's basic lack of appeal to voters, "better than Bush," though these two candidates may indeed have been.

                  Democrats are mainstream progressives. They are supposed to be looking out for voters' interests; why aren't they winning by landslides? Why is such a vast population of eligible American voters JUST STAYING HOME and sitting out each election?

                  Again, progressive and would-be progressive voters, asked to chose between voting their consciences, on the one hand--and risk electing a stupid Republican demagogue--and on the other, voting for a weak, lesser-of-two evils Democratic candidate, are in a seriously untenable position.

                  It is not fair of you and my other critics to ignore that the deck is stacked.

              •  You cannot win by a landslide if you (0+ / 0-)

                are a liberal.

                Where in the hell are you living, man?
                Certainly not in the US.

                Gore was as progressive as possible in an otherwise overwhelmingly center-right country. You may come back from your fantasyworld back to reality. Then we can talk.

          •  Response (0+ / 0-)

            "Gore lost because he did not reach out adequately to progressives and would-be progressive voters."

            1. "Progressives", as the term applied back then (which basically were non-Democratic voters that leaned left), were not the only votes he needed to win the election. FYI, The term progressives is today a much broader definition.
            1. Elections aren't about pandering to one group of the other. It's about telling where the candidate stands and people picking the candidate that comes the closest to their views, and equally importantly, has a shot at winning the election.
            1. Now, don't hide behind the conveniently fuzzy terms like "adequately". They don't mean much. Tell me in concrete terms terms what in his convention speech you now find unacceptable enough for a Nader'00 voter (in a competetive state) not to vote for Gore. I see nothing, and I consider myself to be a diehard progressive.

            "He didn't convince them he had their best interests, he didn't inspire them.  For that, I hold him responsible."

            They weren't listening. Again, tell me in the context of the speech.

            whether non-Democratic progressives can also lend a voice.

            They very well should. I have long expressed my views on this. In the present system, the best way they can participate in the system in a way that the progressive objectives are ultimately well served is for them to become Democrats, and compete in the primaries instead of the General election spoiler bids (eg, Nader's 2000 bid, and Zeese's MD-Sen this year which also looked threatening weeks before the election). Please see my open letter to Zeese from a year ago from a link here.

            Sure, the CT-Sen experiment failed to produce the result there (although it helped elsewhere), but if somehow a "sore loser" bid was prohibited, we'd be celebrating Lamont's foray into the US Senate, as we speak.

            I am not anti-non-Democratic progressives (nor am I anti "DLC/Clintonite Democrat", if only we can stop their gaming of the system), but most importantly of all I want people to  be honest and tell the truth.

            If joining the Democratic party and running in the primaries is not palatable. I am not opposed to seeing an IRV type system in the future,  provided that's done nationwide (i.e. including "red states") and in way that circumvents some of the problems that I have seen with the IRV system.

            In fact, theoretically, I am not averse to a future state with no parties, and one single election among many petitioning candidates (with some cut-off percentage of signatures to keep some sanity) in November using some type of an IRV system, with full public financing (and bans on lobbyist and special interest contributions) and strict rules against negative campaigning. But, that's a long way away.

            Ultimately, everything returns to how people behave. Personal greed, lust for power and ego gratification, dishonesty and lack of integrity throw too many wrenches in any political system, unfortunately.

            Just say NO to BAYH (for VP)! Here's why!

            by NeuvoLiberal on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 11:35:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  What "choice"? (5+ / 0-)

    The deck was stacked, voters were forced to make untenable choices, and could not win.

    They faced a choice between a center-left Democrat and a hard-right conservative using "compassionate" buzzwords.  Even a tiny amount of actual research into Bush and Gore's policies would have been enough to differentiate the two.

    Yet some Greens continue to perpetuate the lie that there was "no difference" between the two men.  I have known very few Greens that actually took the time to make an informed decision in that election.  So I feel pretty ok saying that they were PART of the reason Gore lost.  Not 100%, but a part.

    Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

    by ChicagoDem on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 10:01:56 AM PDT

  •  Wrong. Gore didn't have enough money. (0+ / 0-)

    Not enough to fight againt Bush and Nader simultanously.
    Because of Nader Gore had to waste time and money in states which otherwise would have gone Democratic easily. Like Washington and Oregon and Minnesota and New Jersey.

    Bush had twice as much money as Gore had.

    Now, Gore still won the election -- when the number of voters are concerned -- but without Nader's arrogance and relentless attacks on Gore the butterfly ballot and all those overvotes wouldn't have mattered.

  •  Not ready to make nice (0+ / 0-)

    Nader ran a vicious, slanderous campaign against Gore, who was already running into the headwind of contempt from the MSM.  Nader has since vanished into the woodwork, only reappearing in years that are multiples of 4.  Gore, meanwhile has done landmark work to alert people to global warming.

    I attended a Nader event in 2000 and what struck me most was that the applause seemed directed in equal parts toward the man on the stage and the people in the audience.  Nader played toward an unconscious narcissism on the part of many - an intrinsic human flaw we all have, perhaps - but one that shouldn't enter the voting booth.

    Too many people voted for Nader because "it felt good" (a common refrain in 2000 rationalizations).  It hasn't felt so good since then, has it?  I think these little reminders of how Nader knowingly contributed to our tailspin are worthwhile.

    "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

    by fstlicho on Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 09:36:08 AM PDT

    •  Hi, fstlicho (0+ / 0-)

      Why should it have "felt good," in the circumstances, to vote for Nader, is my question? What "inner depravity" in the voter did placing a vote for obnoxious upstart Ralph Nader supposedly address?

      It's not fair to attribute Nader votes to "voter narcissism," I don't think. Better to look at the whole, unacceptable situation progressive voters found themselves in, having to vote EITHER their conscience, and risk putting a stupid Republican demagogue in high office, OR vote for "the lesser of two evils," for an uninspiring mainstream progressive candidate who, by all indications, wasn't prepared to stand up to lobbyists in Washington and get things done on their behalf.

      You know, in 2000, Gore didn't even carry his home state of Tennessee. That's pretty embarrassing. If he, as a Democrat, was going to be this "man of the people," looking out for their needs for a fair economy, and for  effective universal healthcare, shouldn't he have attracted many more voters?

      About Gore's environmental work, point taken. I did see, and enjoy, "An Inconvenient Truth." But that doesn't change the fact Gore was a tragically weak political candidate.

      Please see also the general comment I'm going to be posting this morning, "About this diary."

      •  About TN et al (0+ / 0-)

        His difficulty in TN should have been taken as an indication of how tough the South was, and how well Dubya's slanders were selling there - I never got it when Naderites slam Gore for not doing well in TN.  It's not like Nader ever visited there.  

        And Gore won the popular vote and more votes than Clinton did in either election.  He made his errors, but he did fairly well in the end sum before Nader, Florida, and the Court entered the equation.

        If the situation in 2000 seemed unacceptable, has the situation since then seemed a bit worse?  Even less acceptable?  Gore was getting slammed from all sides - having to fight for places like Michigan and West Virginia because of his environmental stances, and Washington because of the Clinton administration's stand against Microsoft.  And he had to face Nader's slanders - Saint Ralph ran an unambiguously vicious campaign.  

        "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

        by fstlicho on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 06:23:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  fstlicho (0+ / 0-)

          OK, besides those "narcissistic" progressives who voted for Nader in 2000, what about that huge proportion of eligible voters, who were concerned about healthcare and their retirements, who simply stayed home during the 2000 elections? This should have been Gore's bloc, all they way. They could have turned out for Gore and ensured his victory. They didn't, because Gore didn't inspire them.

          Ralph Nader is no "saint." I have never alleged as much. He could definitely stand to examine his own personality and character motivations, and no, of course he shouldn't have run in 2004. Right or wrong, he'd lost all credibility with voters by then, and was simply an object of scorn.

          But Nader was the only noteworthy presidential hopeful in 2000 to make single-payer healthcare--a commonsense, needed healthcare reform--the centerpiece of his campaign. The only one. All these Americans dying because of our ghastly system of for-profit healthcare funding, and the well-funded progressive candidate in 2000 didn't even back single-payer. The DailyKos discussions on this issue are so politicized that if I point this out, I get myself branded a "Nader shill." Sigh.

          Oh, if Gore wins the Democratic nomination this time around, I'll probably back him, and wish him very well--for all our sakes. But it won't be without ambivalence, and it won't be without resentment at being placed in this two-party bind.

          •  it's anyone's guess (0+ / 0-)

            Gore could not catch a break from the media - Bush was getting off scot-free on issues of character and competence and Gore's rather minor verbal miscues were being turned into a big deal.  I'd think that was as much a factor as anything - with retirees as well.  Gore's personality filled Pages 1-9, his agenda made Page 10.  

            No offense with the Saint Ralph bit.  I've been calling him that for years - it just slips in when I type, regardless of the exchange.

            Nader was free to say whatever he wanted to - he could have promised to launch us off toward the Horsehead Nebula if he chose to - because he wasn't focused on winning the election and he never had a chance of that.  He chose to run outside the two party system - the system that (on our side) has facilitated the rise of folks like Barack Obama, Jon Tester, and Sherrod Brown - because he never had time to accommodate anyone else's concerns - which is a vital prereq for running this country.  

            I'm sorry if you take heat here.  I'm happy to talk with reasonable ex-Nader voters like yourself, but I will never forgive Nader for doing what he did - he undermined a good man (if an imperfect campaigner) and he sent this country on a disastrous path in spite of all-too-clear evidence that Bush would be a disaster in office and that there were huge differences between Bush and Gore.  Nader deserves infamy for that and I think it's a safe bet he'll get it.  

            "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

            by fstlicho on Sat Dec 09, 2006 at 08:11:27 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No argument (