Daily Kos

Move over USA the next BULLY is sliding in!!

Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 04:37:42 PM PDT

From out of the mouths of babes as the saying goes. I have been sitting here telling folks that there is a new bully on the block for a year or so now on Kos and elsewhere.  China is just quietly watching as Mr. Bush squanders our treasury and jeopardizes our safety.  And I can see them quietly smiling in my mind's eye.  The "long noses are fools" they think.  And as far as most of our leaders go that seems to be the case.  
 These guys are everywhere and could arguably kick our ass in a war just because they are an industrial giant (like we were in WW2) and have so great a demographic. Lots of young war age folks. And they see us as savages, an accidental caretaker on the world's stage, keeping the world in order and taking our share until they are ready.

    Counterterrorism Blog
    November 3, 2006
    Africa, China and the Shifting World Order
    By Douglas Farah

    Sudan's president, Omar Hassan al-Bashir, claims that a U.N. peacekeeping force to stop his well-financed and brutal Islamist campaign in Darfur would turn his country into "another Iraq." The statement is not as surprising or as menacing as the venue where al Bashir chose to make it-Bejing, where the Chinese are hosting an Africa summit attended by 48 African leaders.

    The Chinese expect $50 billion in trade between Africa and China this year. Bejing is dispensing hundreds of millions of dollars in aid and weapons systems to secure access to the oil, copper, timber and other comodities in Africa.

    In return, the Chinese protect the muderous regime in Khartoum, the ravagers of Zimbabwe, the thugs in Equatorial Guinea, the xenophobes in Ivory Coast and other unsavory people who have made life hell for their people for decades. My full blog is here.
   

The Chinese have been courting the Saudis for a number of years.  Recently there has been more news about their activities.

Don't Miss the Boat, Dabbagh Tells Chinese Investors
Arab News

SAGIA Governor Amr Al-Dabbagh    

BEIJING, 3 November 2006 -- China should invest in Saudi Arabia's petrochemical sector or risk becoming a victim of the Gulf nation's bid to use its energy reserves to become an industry leader. "Don't' miss the boat," Amr Al-Dabbagh, governor of the Saudi Arabian General Investment Authority (SAGIA), told Chinese investors at the closing session of the CEO Forum here yesterday.

The Chinese have yet to even crack open their giant oil fields which are said to be vast and untouched.  They would prefer to use up the rest of the world's resources first.  They are spending more and more money on Military.  

This is one reason I would support Mr. Obama for office.  He has a background and experience with the East and it's culture.  His knowledge and skill would be valuable in dealing with China. This is an update that was posted in the comments by:DanceboyOH

China has throughout history been one of the princpal centers of power in the world.

In the 1420s the Chinese sent fleets into the Indian Ocean demanding local rules recognize Chinese overlordship. The effort was not sustained by the Ming Dynasty, but it illustrated China's enormous potential, a potential that allowed China to retain its dominance in Eastern Asia until the early 19th C. And that is historically China's relationship with the rest of the world. As long as China feels secure in its own immediate neighborhood, is does not seek to dominate outside areas far from its shores.

Until the late 18th C China was the wealthiest economy in the world, importing mass amounts of silver from the rest of the world in exchange for porcelains, teas and silks in demand elsewhere.

Then came the West's ahistoric industrial revolution, and its short two century displacement of China and other non-Western regions as THE hegemonic power in the world. Before c. 1800 the West was one of many regions, after 1800 it became primus inter pares.

That era is over, the technology gap enjoyed by the West is shrinking, be it in economic production or military power.

The West will have to learn that the rest of the world is no longer its oyster to be harvested at will, and that other regions have legitimate claims to be treated as equals, not subordinates.

Poll

Do you think China is a threat?

12%12 votes
3%3 votes
12%12 votes
0%0 votes
1%1 votes
70%66 votes

| 94 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: China, Korea, Japan, Oil, oil reserves, Saudi Arabia, George W. Bush, Bechtel, energy, industrial production, Barack Obama (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 34 comments

  •  In the future China will tell us what to do (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Ckntfld, Nulwee

    unless we plan ahead.

  •  And god knows they won't stop until... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades, baba durag, Nulwee

    ...they get their filthy hands all over our white women!

    "It's just like the 60's, only with less hope." -Justin Bond in the film "Shortbus" (-6.38/ -4.21)

    by wonkydonkey on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 04:39:12 PM PDT

    •  that's not what I meant (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wonkydonkey

      Not a particularly helpful or thoughtful comment.  If that is where your head goes every-time someone criticizes the Chinese you should examine your own prejudices.  I almost gave you doughnut.

    •  Over a billion serving! (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wonkydonkey, Keone Michaels

      Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

      The paranoia of the "red barbarians" toward China is age-old, but deluded in a basic way.  A closer study of history indicates that Chinese territorial and imperial ambitions have always been largely limited.  China at its various zeniths has  always dominated more commercially than militarily or diplomatically.  In the place of expansionism that has characterized most other great powers, Chinese history is marked by the establishment of commerical colonies scattered far and wide.

      A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. ~Edward R. Murrow

      by ActivistGuy on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:47:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  (giggle) (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wonkydonkey
      See, I'm one of those white women... married 41 years to a Chinese. I'd buy that book, if only for the hilarious cover art.

      I'm less amused, though, by Americans trying to cast China in the role of international boogeyman. Something about motes and beams, you know. And eyes.

      Folly is fractal: the closer you look at it, the more of it there is.

      by Canadian Reader on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 07:43:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  energy flows where attention goes ... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        wonkydonkey

        It is not about ethnic differences but politics and world domination and these prejudices as you well know still exist in America.  

        Nobody needs to cast China as anything, they will lead the way.  Politically and militarily, they will do what they have to to continue to grow and eventually (within 10 years) "show their ass" as the Texans say.  By that time even the simplest dullard in our congress will understand wassup.

        The reason I reacted the way i did was because in my multi-ethnic family I'm always offended when the first thing mentioned when discussing an issue is the ethnic fears.  It shows more about the person making the comments mindset than it does about the issues.

  •  You haven't given me a realistic choice (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    4democracy

    I would say that China could be a threat if we don't change our ways. Also Russia has been flexing its muscles - If we continue with Cheney's foreign policy, we are in serious trouble and will have no oil nor will we have any viable program for alternate fuels.

    •  I'm afraid of Russia, not China (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      blueyedace2, corvo, Keone Michaels

      unlike the United States and Russia, China doesn't consider itself an extension of something else's history, be it Britain-Magna Carta or The Roman-Byzantine Empire or the Vikings, whatever.

      China is, in it's own eye, the oldest and most sophisticated civilization on the planet.  Even in times of turmoil or invasion it never went 'backwards' the way Carthage or Arab countries or Europe have during the last five millenia.  Korea and Japan, on the other hand, have to trace back not only their writing and art but their very history to China.  China has no real predecessor in the common myths, it is the endall, the beginning and the end.
      China has imperial aspirations, but to the extent of believing in a historical Chinese cultural/ethnic zone, and it basically completed its lebensraum and unification quest in the 20th century.

      Russia has never had a clear identity the way Japan or China have, but it has the same genocidal/imperial/colonial identity the United States and Japan have had towards their wilderness and aboriginal peoples.  Russia has a crumbling nuclear arsenal wired to failing computers (Dr. Strangelove?) with no bookkeeping on its stockpiles or its treasury, serious resource problems, political instability, autocracy (what happens when the strongman starts to weaken?) no clear allies except its former CIS subjects and maybe China, who never really gives a hoot about anyone else.

      India is an unpredictable nation.  Russia is an unpredictable nation with thousands of poorly managed nuclear weaponry.

      Plus, he knows what crapped out means, which will help him explain his condition on the morning of November 5 - PBCliberal

      by Nulwee on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 04:54:49 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  That's been the problem with BUSHCO's policies.. (0+ / 0-)

    Squandering our resources, legitimacy and military Esprit de Corps on a false war serving false, and dishonest, purposes.  This is exactly why they're so dangerous - because, in their unapologetic service to themselves, they are so incredibly careless.

  •  China could buy and sell us (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    ablington, Keone Michaels

    RIGHT NOW

    •  China already does (0+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Keone Michaels

      they subsidize our national debt...

      just recently the governor of Oregon, the formerly imperiled Ted Kulongoski held a trade meeting with Chinese leaders in Portland.  All of the West Coast states (even Idaho) depend on China directly for their economies.

      Plus, he knows what crapped out means, which will help him explain his condition on the morning of November 5 - PBCliberal

      by Nulwee on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 04:56:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  China (9+ / 0-)

    has throughout history been one of the princpal centers of power in the world.

    In the 1420s the Chinese sent fleets into the Indian Ocean demanding local rules recognize Chinese overlordship. The effort was not sustained by the Ming Dynasty, but it illustrated China's enormous potential, a potential that allowed China to retain its dominance in Eastern Asia until the early 19th C. And that is historically China's relationship with the rest of the world. As long as China feels secure in its own immediate neighborhood, is does not seek to dominate outside areas far from its shores.

    Until the late 18th C China was the wealthiest economy in the world, importing mass amounts of silver from the rest of the world in exchange for porcelains, teas and silks in demand elsewhere.

    Then came the West's ahistoric industrial revolution, and its short two century displacement of China and other non-Western regions as THE hegemonic power in the world. Before c. 1800 the West was one of many regions, after 1800 it became primus inter pares.

    That era is over, the technology gap enjoyed by the West is shrinking, be it in economic production or military power.

    The West will have to learn that the rest of the world is no longer its oyster to be harvested at will, and that other regions have legitimate claims to be treated as equals, not subordinates.

  •  Thanks to Bush (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    eaglecries, Keone Michaels

    most of the planet views us as the greatest threat to world peace, so China is just using yuan diplomacy to gain influence and usurp our neo-colonial legacy in the developing world.  Besides, China already owes alot our debt, so they already have some control over our future.  We can't make war, without Chinese money.

  •  Bush is pissed because China and (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Cedwyn, Nulwee

    Iraq are talking oil contracts:
    China might get first oil contracts

    Will the elite be happy living behind gated communities in the potential meltdown? Peace now. -7.00, -2.92

    by mattes on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 04:50:31 PM PDT

  •  Just a Threat (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Meteor Blades

    I think you may be overestimating China right now.  We did the same thin with the Japanese.  In another 30-40 years, they could be a threat to us, but they have a long way to go.  In fact, if they do not find a way to care for their own billion plus population, I am not sure when they would be in a position to be more than an economic threat.

    •  maybe, maybe not (0+ / 0-)

      Talk to people that deal with them one to one and you will find a different opinion.  

      They are our industrial base.  We consume and bully and play the percentages and margins.  We are in debt to the Chinese.  They can destablize our currency whenever they want and we can't do shit because we could never beat them in a fight.

      Atom bombs are not the way to go.  We've been there and done that and see what it got us?  Besides China has nukes too.

  •  Well, the most dangerous terrorist/world leader.. (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader, eaglecries

    ...alive today has barricaded himself in our own Oval Office.   So, nah, I've got enough on my plate right here to bother worrying about China.

  •  Don't Know About If Or When They Will Become (0+ / 0-)

    a threat. I do know the American people are helping them buy a whole lot of new and sophisticated weapons. The slogan should be Buy Made In China And Help Their Military Aims.

    No courage = No $$$ for Dems

    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:08:12 PM PDT

  •  Watch one movie (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Keone Michaels

    Watch "To Live" by Zhang Yi Mou. At the opening consider America to be the gambler who loses his fortune to the patient casino boss (China). China has a ton of problems, but they are aware of them and are working to correct them. America has a ton of problems and is not even aware they exist because America is Great, full stop. Time will tell...

    I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman

    by taonow on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:13:03 PM PDT

  •  Not a threat but a savior (0+ / 0-)

    China will inevitably replace the U.S. as the major global power, a role to which the U.S. has never been temperamentally suited in the first place.

    "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." -- White Rose letter no. 1

    by keikekaze on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:25:37 PM PDT

    •  What makes China more suitable? (0+ / 0-)

      McCain mortgage policy shaped by banking lobbyist.

      by xynz on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:51:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't say they were . . . (0+ / 0-)

        . . . I said we weren't.  What the world really needs, of course, is some sort of global parliament with real legislative and enforcement power, but that's a lot less likely to happen, in the shorter run, than China becoming the dominant power.  

        "Do not forget that every people deserves the regime it is willing to endure." -- White Rose letter no. 1

        by keikekaze on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:56:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Those of us who want a democratic future.... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Keone Michaels

    ....would do well to set up strategic alliances that can counter China's power and India must be an integral part of any such alliance.  India is the only nation that could possibly match China's human resources.  While it is far from a Western model of modern democracy, India is a democracy that tolerates political dissent.

    McCain mortgage policy shaped by banking lobbyist.

    by xynz on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 05:50:34 PM PDT

  •  A Chinese threat? If you mean (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Canadian Reader

    China has already begun to block the American neocons' plan for total and permanent world hegemony-- and you think that American world hegemony is good for America and good for the world-- well, then, yes, the Chinese "threat" is already here.

    I can't get very excited about it, though, for I have no desire to see the US rule the world alone. A multipolar world would be more stable than a world engulfed in the American Empire, and it would be a damn sight better for the preservation of American democracy. And so far I'm reassured by the way China is pursuing its interests abroad, through investment in higher education, efficient manufacturing and trading, and comparativley adroit diplomacy-- exactly what the Americans have abandoned doing.

    •  we are the bully now (0+ / 0-)

      they are the next bully.

      There cannot be two bullies on the playground.  I agree a world with multi-centers of power would be best.  But unless mankind changes the likelyhood is that the best we can hope for is a satisfactory compromise.  I think we need to prepare for that is all I'm saying.

  •  I am less worried now than (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Keone Michaels

    I was.  I have read a lot lately about China's many problems.  They are horribly polluted.  They have lost 75% of the Loess Plateau, the world's second largest grassland (after Austrailia) to erosion.  Climate change will cause less snow to fall in the Himalayas, further diminishing the Yellow and Yangtse rivers, which already are going dry in places.  They have serious water problems.  Dust storms sweep many parts of the interior due to above problems.  Their population is exactly optimum now- very few dependents (young or old) to suck up resources.  In ten years they will have a lot of old folks.  They have got to make it now or else.  They lose lots of farmland each year and can't feed their population as it is.  Maybe this stuff isn't that big a deal, I don't really know, but I have read a lot of it lately and it makes me think China is less of a threat.

  •  China and Japan are building a money machine (0+ / 0-)

    a financial shark if you will. We will feed the beast.

    http://www.economyincrisis.org/...

    Reality is best served in small portions and only to others.

    by 0hio on Fri Nov 03, 2006 at 09:58:16 PM PDT

Permalink | 34 comments