Skip to main content

Does Israel want peace more than the West Bank? That is the billion dollar question. This story alone deserves a diary. I have been told many times that in Palestine the Arabs teach there is no Israel, but what does Israel teach?

A comment from the story on the Haaretz website:

Title: Who is it that needs reconition?
Name: Palestinian
City: Jerusalem State: Occupied Palestine

They completely delete our existence from the books they teach their children, then ask why our children grow up to hate them.

They ask for recognition from the non existent people that live in the non existent west bank and Gaza. They simply want us to disappear and still want us to recognize their right to make us bleed on our own land they have stolen.

enough said......

What does being a "fair broker" mean? Equal treatment? Hearing multiple sides? Should we hold Israel to a higher standard, since we are always being told that they share our values? These are the types of question on my mind when I think about Israel and Palestine.

What are Israeli children being taught? This article gives us a glimpse.

An organization of right-wing rabbis on Tuesday issued a Halakhic decree forbidding students from using schoolbooks featuring maps of Israel which include the Green Line, Israel Radio reported.

The decree came in response to Education Minister Yuli Tamir's decision on Tuesday to add the pre-1967 borders to all new editions of textbooks.

Tamir defended the decision as the only way to teach students the basis of the region's politics, but her order came under fire from a number of right-wing groups.

Chairman of the National Union-National Religious Party Zevulun Orlev criticized Tamir's decision, saying she was imposing her "Peace Now" ideology on the ministry.

Tamir said Israel could not demand of its Arab neighbors to mark the June 4, 1967 borders, while the Israeli education system erased them from its textbooks and from children's awareness.

It seem that Knesset approved textbooks show no 1967 green line:

Her main findings included the disappearance of the Green Line and Arab cities in Israel from the maps in these books, and their presentation of sites and settlements in "Judea and Samaria," rather than in the "West Bank," as an integral part of Israel.

The fact that Haaretz lead with this story says to me, the Peace Now movement is getting traction. anotherAmerican did a diary on the Peace Now projects if you are not familar with them:

There are people working toward peace in Israel, I just don't think it's their government. Olmert would like nothing better than to drag us into more hardline confrontations with Iran, Lebanon and Syria.

Before Israel claims the moral ground on what is being taught to the children, it need to take a hard look at themselves!

Originally posted to mattes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:02 AM PST.

Your Email has been sent.
You must add at least one tag to this diary before publishing it.

Add keywords that describe this diary. Separate multiple keywords with commas.
Tagging tips - Search For Tags - Browse For Tags


More Tagging tips:

A tag is a way to search for this diary. If someone is searching for "Barack Obama," is this a diary they'd be trying to find?

Use a person's full name, without any title. Senator Obama may become President Obama, and Michelle Obama might run for office.

If your diary covers an election or elected official, use election tags, which are generally the state abbreviation followed by the office. CA-01 is the first district House seat. CA-Sen covers both senate races. NY-GOV covers the New York governor's race.

Tags do not compound: that is, "education reform" is a completely different tag from "education". A tag like "reform" alone is probably not meaningful.

Consider if one or more of these tags fits your diary: Civil Rights, Community, Congress, Culture, Economy, Education, Elections, Energy, Environment, Health Care, International, Labor, Law, Media, Meta, National Security, Science, Transportation, or White House. If your diary is specific to a state, consider adding the state (California, Texas, etc). Keep in mind, though, that there are many wonderful and important diaries that don't fit in any of these tags. Don't worry if yours doesn't.

You can add a private note to this diary when hotlisting it:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from your hotlist?
Are you sure you want to remove your recommendation? You can only recommend a diary once, so you will not be able to re-recommend it afterwards.
Rescue this diary, and add a note:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary from Rescue?
Choose where to republish this diary. The diary will be added to the queue for that group. Publish it from the queue to make it appear.

You must be a member of a group to use this feature.

Add a quick update to your diary without changing the diary itself:
Are you sure you want to remove this diary?
(The diary will be removed from the site and returned to your drafts for further editing.)
(The diary will be removed.)
Are you sure you want to save these changes to the published diary?

Comment Preferences

  •  Off Base! (5+ / 0-)

    Boy, are you way off base here.

    It's obvious that the official Israeli government position is to treat history correctly, as witness this statement taken right out of your quote box:

    "The decree came in response to Education Minister Yuli Tamir's decision on Tuesday to add the pre-1967 borders to all new editions of textbooks."

    Funny, you didn't seem to put in bold type that fact that the position you support is also the official position of the Israeli Ministry of Education.

    What you're highlighting is a position of a bunch of Israeli wingnuts (you know, the same type of wingnuts we always ridiucle for the US side here on dKos) who are objecting to Israeli government policy that they don't agree with, because the policy is actually rational and the wingnuts aren't!

    And your point is...?

  •  Hasn't this been a problem in Israel for a long (10+ / 0-)


    Where much of the population, ostensibly, wants peace while the government appears to have a hardline posture that inevitably precipitates war?  And if that is the case and Israel is a democracy, then why do the hardliners continue to be elected?  Is the Peace Now movement as proportionate as its visibility?  And if so, is it influencing elections so as to bring the governing institutions in line with the myth of the populace's desire for peace?

    Interesting article, though.  Erasing things from history books, it would seem, is at least one of the values our government and Israel's have in common.

    Lobbyists need Republicans like pimps need whores.

    by electricgrendel on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:08:10 AM PST

  •  Many in the military of Israel belongs (7+ / 0-)

    to this Peace group.  The last time I heard a count it was 600 Military, who have refused to fight.  This is a start and I pray it will build from there.  

  •  So who approved these government approved (6+ / 0-)

    textbooks that don't show the green line?  I guess it was the government, but I could be wrong.  Glad to see that someone is working to correct this!

    everybody love somebody...

    by toys on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:21:27 AM PST

    •  Knesset: (5+ / 0-)

      MK Ronit Tirosh (Kadima), formerly the Director-General of the Education Ministry, also criticized Tamir, saying that she does not possess the authority to issue such an order.

      "The education minister in not permitted to interfere with the content of textbooks, and should also have consulted the other members of the Knesset before making such changes," Tirosh said Tuesday.

      "Israel's keeping territory, would create a revanchism for the rest of the century." Dean Rusk 9/11 happened because of our FAILED middle eastern policies.

      by mattes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:27:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wrong assumption (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vome minnesota

      The government decree (as per the Ministry of Education) actually wants to put the pre-1967 borders into the textbooks.  It's simply a bunch of religious wingnuts who are objecting to that.

      You know, like in this country when the Christian right doesn't want disease to be cured by using stem cells?  In Israel, its the Rabbinical right that doesn't want Israeli children to know the correct pre-1967 history.  Maybe a better analogy of religious fundamentalists in this country is an objection to teaching evolution in our schools.

      Different country.  Same type of wingnuts.  

      The diarist criticizing the government is way off base here, since the government is actually doing the correct thing.

  •  The Education Ministry in Israel (7+ / 0-)

    decrees lots of things, but not so many of them actually come to pass.  Not only the settler rabbis are objecting, but the schools and textbook publishers are, as well, on account of the cost of revising the books.

    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to see corrected maps show up in the classrooms.

  •  I've thought about the parallels to Hindu-Muslim (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    curmudgiana, hypersphere01

    riots and Gandhi's reaction to it.

    Instead of inciting, he promoted harmony, and threatened fasts after fasts unto death for those who inflamed the rioteers.

    In fact his favorite Hindu song of praise(below *) called on Allah and was meant to foster respect for all faiths, something that he believed the Hindu majority had greater responsibility to take the lead on:

    *Raghupati Raghav Rajaram
    Patit Paavana Sitaram
    Ishwar Allah Tere Naam
    Sabko sanmati de Bhagwan
    Raghupati Raghav........

    Translation into English

    Rama, the Lord of heavens
    Blessed is thy name, husband of Sita
    Ishwar and Allah are your names
    Bless the world with good sense
    Rama, ..."

    A very poor contrast to the leaders from all sides in the current conflict!

    •  Wildly impractical advice (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wu ming, mattes, hypersphere01, Allogenes

      For a Gandhi to work, one has to be oppressed by the British, or by some other power that is having second thoughts about the rightness of its deeds and is playing empire a safe distance from its home territories. It helped too that Gandhi, rather than being a holy man floating two inches above the ground, was a practical thinker who knew the British inside-out, could play them like a violin, and had thus managed to become something of an institution.

      If the Japanese had taken India and Gandhi had kept to the same schtick, he would have been crowbait in no time flat. (To his great credit, he acknowledged this and said it was a price he was willing to pay -- would that all pacifists were that honest!)

      The closest analog to Gandhi in the modern world is the Dalai Lama, and he's had damn-all luck in getting the Chinese out of Tibet. If he'd stayed there, he would have been disposed of with little ceremony and would by now be long forgotten. Not a hopeful precedent, unless you think the world needs yet another peripatetic dispenser of holiness-by-the-dose.

      I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin.

      by sagesource on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:59:59 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I know what you're saying - time and players (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        curmudgiana, hypersphere01

        are different.

        I agree that the slave and master, oppressed and oppressor, prisoner and imprisoned complement each other - different oppressors bind different kinds of oppressed to themsleves, which is why Palestinians  locked in this deadly embrace with the Jewish-Zionists may have had a very different experience with a different kind of neighbor.

        But supposedly apolitical leaders (like rabbis and priests) would do well to follow Gandhi's example to 'unite not divide' (that familiar theme), instead of adding fuel to the fire. I think the Pope got a big hint after his unwise comment early in the summer threatened to go out of control. And so he behaved himself in Turkey. Similarly, all leaders of all faiths must come to terms that this eye-for-an-eye thing has gone on long enough; they need to take the intiative and BACK off the edge of the cliff that they're taking humanity off of.

      •  Agreed, but (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dvo, anonymousredvest18, Keith Moon

        I think on the whole the Israelis are more like the Brits.
        A sufficiently skillful and influential Arab Gandhi could have nipped Israel in the bud in 1947 - by getting the Arabs to accept the partition plan, persuading the Arabs on the Israeli side of the line to stay in their homes even in the face of Zionist threats, and at the same time bringing international public pressure on Israel to honor its part of the bargain and allallowing them to stay as full citizens.
        If (s)he could have prevented the anti-Jewish riots in Arab capitals that drove so many mizrachi Jews to make aliyah, all the better.
        There would be an Arab-majority knesset in no time.
        If only.
        Even now, a credible Arab Mandela could accomplish something...

        "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

        by Allogenes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:35:01 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  how did nonviolence work for rachel corrie? [nt] (5+ / 0-)

          surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

          by wu ming on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:39:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Alas, (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            no one has yet developed a technique of non-violence which will guarantee that no one ends up under a tank.
            Nor has anyone found a method of violence which can guarantee that only bad guys suffer.

            "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

            by Allogenes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:07:55 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  true (0+ / 0-)

              but the question of whether the occupation regime is really one that could be defeated by nonviolent methods is far from self-evident. same as against the american occupation of ircaq, in iraq. iraqis protested, we fire into thed crowd, the home audioence changes the channel, occupation continues.

              there is no free media in the occupied territories that could report on such a  movement anyways, as we saw in jenin.

              surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

              by wu ming on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 02:45:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I certainly agree that there's nothing (0+ / 0-)

                self-evident about it, nothing that can be deduced a priori or predicted with any hope of accuracy without careful consideration of the particulars of each situation.
                And you have a point, certainly, about "the home audience changing the channel."
                But when I hypothesize an "Arab Gandhi" I mean someone with the Mahatma's gift for publicity, for message-management, as much as his ability to arrange actual events on the ground. The trick is to find a way to appeal to elements in the occupying power's culture and get people to not change the channel. I agree that some cases - Nazi Germany is always cited, with good reason - may well be truly hopeless. But the gift of a Gandhi is to create hope where there seems to be none. And a good part of it is to get the other side to see you as human and not as a dangerous force of nature that must be warded off at all cost.
                If there were any hope of appealing to the Israelis' better nature, nothing could have done more to extinguish that hope than all those suicide-bombings.
                You mention Jenin. I assume you refer to these events? Note that I just googled the name and found the wiki article in a couple of seconds. There is no secret. In today's world anyone can create their own free media. Granted it's harder in some places than others, but it's usually possible. The trick is to get people to notice.

                "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

                by Allogenes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 04:29:01 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  i am not as convinced of the efficacy (0+ / 0-)

                  of gandhi's methids in anticolonial struggle. for it is not only the nazis, but the brutal occupation of the majority of the world's peoples by european colonial powers, that provide the counterexample.

                  in fact, one can argue that for nonviolent protest to work, one needs a credible threat of a violent alternative. gandhi and MLK jr. succeeded in large part to the fear of what hell would break out if they weren't dealt with.

                  io worry that,. as a colonial power ourselves, we too easily buy into the myth of gandhian passive resistance, not unlike 19th century slaveholders preaching christian forbearance to slaves, and condemning slave rebellions.

                  again, i am highly skeptical that nonviolence will sway the israeli occupation. if they gave half a damn for global opinion, or about the human costs of their occupation, they would have ceased it by now.

                  surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

                  by wu ming on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 05:49:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You say (0+ / 0-)

                    i am highly skeptical that nonviolence will sway the israeli occupation. if they gave half a damn for global opinion, or about the human costs of their occupation, they would have ceased it by now.

                    The impression I get from every interaction I've had with pro-Israel Jews is that they do care about these things, but care more for their own and their people's survival. If they could be persuaded that their survival was not at stake, I truly believe they would be reasonable. Not all, of course, every community has its wingnuts; but most US Zionists and I think most Israelis as well.
                    Maybe I'm wrong. We both seem to see the same situation, the same mix of factors working, but evaluate them a bit differently. That's fine. I've said my piece, you can have the last word if you like. I thank you in all sincerity for this discussion.

                    "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." -- Will Rogers

                    by Allogenes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 06:46:18 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

  •  Any update? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    This story is from 7 months ago. Have there been any further developments since? The situation described in the article seemed in flux -- as has been the Israeli poltical situation.

    •  I saw this story yesterday (4+ / 0-)

      in Ha'aretz

    •  death curse on me soon... (5+ / 0-)

      Tamir: They'll put out a death curse on me soon

      Education minister's decision to depict Israel map with Green Line in Israeli textbooks wins harsh reactions; Tamir feels attacked. Olmert: No reason not to mention Green Line

      Education Minister Yuli Tamir felt harassed pursuant to her decision to introduce textbooks depicting Israel's map with the Green Line, explaining an earlier comment that the reaction to the new textbooks was like a 'pulsa denura' (death curse).

      Tamir's initiative to return the Green Line to maps of Israel in students' textbooks has caused a storm and earned her many verbal attacks.

      She told Ynet that she'd heard on the radio that the committee of rabbis for the state of Israel warned her that what had happened to Ariel Sharon would happen to her as well.

      Right Protests
      Settlers reject Tamir's textbooks / Efrat Weiss
      Storm follows education minister's decision to add Green Line to Israel's map in student textbooks. Settlement heads announce they will reject textbooks; 'We will continue to educate about the whole Land of Israel,' they say
      Full story

      "(In general) I feel that there's a chance for dialogue among the Israeli public, but sometimes reality hits me in the face and tells me there will not be an agreement on this issue," she said Tuesday evening.

      "Today there was a political dialogue after which I felt that agreement is a liberal delusion," she added.

      The head rabbi in Kiryat Motzkin Rabbi Daid Drukman, among those who found the Halachic passage to boycott the books, said the books are considered heretical.

      "Whosoever rips parts of the Israel, his fate is of one who rips the Torah of Israel. The books must not be studied or kept at home," he said.

      "Israel's keeping territory, would create a revanchism for the rest of the century." Dean Rusk 9/11 happened because of our FAILED middle eastern policies.

      by mattes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:09:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I'm shocked, (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dvo, shergald, Democritus, Nulwee, Allogenes, jhritz

    SHOCKED, that countries often use children's geography textbooks for political and propaganda ends. You know, when I was in grade school my textbook displayed China as a little island now known as Taiwan. Oh, speaking of omitting information from maps, have a look here and then take a peak at this graphic from a Palestinian textbook for 7th graders titled "The Geography of Palestine” for 7th grade".

    I don't see a the green line. Do you?

    "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." ~ Diderot

    by Bouwerie Boy on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:56:57 AM PST

  •  Double Standard? (6+ / 0-)

    It sounds, by the comments, that there's debate in Israel about this.  What about Palestine?

    Check this out from MIT:


    For example, one Palestinian Authority ninth-grade textbook contains the passage, "treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and therefore one should beware of them."

    Anyone objecting to that?

  •  Palestine deserves to have it's land back (4+ / 0-)

    Until Isreal abides by the agreements it had made and the UN declaration to return the lands to the pre 1967 boarders, life will continue the same way it has.  The lines should be there....Bravo to Education Minister Yuli Tamir.

    As an objective observer, it apprears that Isreal wants everyone to follow the rules it sets up but they are exempt from regulations and rules themselves.

    Time for a regime change in Isreal, and a return to sanity.  They are almost as corrupt as the Rethug machinery in the US

    statusquomustgo...and it did

    by Statusquomustgo on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:04:03 AM PST

    •  actually you got that wrong (0+ / 0-)

      according to UN resolution 242 Israel is required to return the land in exchange for peace. Israel is NOT expected to do it unilaterally but as part of a comprehensive peace agreement.  Egypt was ready to make peace and they got their land back, Jordan was ready to make peace and they got their land back too. The world is waiting until the Palestinians are ready to make peace with Israel.

      •  I've heard these objections to interpreting (4+ / 0-)

        242, made international law via 338. The first line makes clear that the UN Resolution is based on the principle that it is impermissible to obtain land by military conquest.

        Still we have people stating that this is not what 242 means; 242 really means that IT IS PERMISSIBLE to obtain land through military conquest. You see, it doesn't say "the" land or "all the" land. Therefore, Israel can take what the hell it likes.

        It is total bullshit, said many times before.

        •  it does not say (0+ / 0-)

          "the land" or "all the land" for a very good reason, this wording was considered and explicitly rejected by resolution's authors. It does not say "all land" because the UN did not want the resolution to say it, because the authors anticipated that the final border would be negotiated and may be slightly different from the pre-1967 armistice line. That's exactly why Israel's unilateral withdrawal is not possible, that's exactly why the resolution is known as "land for peace" and not "land before peace" resolution. Israel  needs a partner to negotiate with.

          •  Now to the boloney you started with earlier, (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            weasel, mattes, anonymousredvest18

            you add the old "no partner" ploy to stall any peace negotiations. At least you should get up to date. That was last used by Sharon. Olmert has a different problem, which he is solving by proposing "dialogue" not negotiations. Heaven forbid peace talks break out and the world finds out that we confronting another "generous offer:" more bantustans.

            dvo, get smart. Read Carter's book as to what the meaning of 242/338 is or check with the UN.

            •  baloney? What baloney? (0+ / 0-)

              "The resolution's most important feature is the "land for peace" formula, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories it had occupied in 1967 in exchange for peace with its neighbors."

              What part of "in exchange for peace" do you not understand? Oh and btw:

              "It is known from an outside source that the sponsors resisted all attempts to insert words such as "all" or "the" in the text of this phrase in the English text of the resolution, and it will not be overlooked that when that very word "all" erroneously crept into the Spanish translation of the draft, it was subsequently removed."

              •  No. Actually Israel used influence to (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mattes, anonymousredvest18

                have "the" or "all" removed on some idiotic notion that it would permit it to violate the basic tenet that provoked the resolution to begin with: an international law. Today it is only still argued by a few nuts like yourself who say that the resolution didn't really mean what it said.

                •  I am sure you know better (0+ / 0-)

                  than the authors of the resolution but you may still want to take their opinion into account:

                  Lord Caradon, the chief author of the resolution:
                  We didn't say there should be a withdrawal to the '67 line; we did not put the 'the' in, we did not say all the territories, deliberately.. We all knew - that the boundaries of '67 were not drawn as permanent frontiers, they were a cease-fire line of a couple of decades earlier... We did not say that the '67 boundaries must be forever.

                  •  That's his opinion... (0+ / 0-)

                    It is not the opinion of those who voted for the resolution, nor those who gave it the power of international law through 338. If the Brit had some notion that the words did not mean what they said, then the resolution should have been elaborated, with his point emphasized.

                    Land occupied and the land occupied mean the same thing, and it certainly did not mean that it was permissible to keep some or most or any of the land occupied.

                    Think what you like.

              •  Here is Olmert's ploy to avoid peace (4+ / 0-)

                negotiations, provided by Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom from his latest article:

                "Last week, Olmert went all the way to Ben-Gurion's grave in the remote Negev and made a speech designed to establish his status as his successor. No point wasting words on this pretension. But it is certainly revealing to analyse the speech itself.

                On the face of it, a peacenik speech the likes of which we have not heard for some time. Some said that this was an answer to the words addressed to him by the writer David Grossman at the Rabin memorial rally. And indeed, there is a resemblance between the two: just as Grossman's speech was rich in sublime values and poor in practical proposals, so Olmert excelled in impressive phrases but failed the test of content.  

                WHAT DID he say, after all?

                "If you (the Palestinians) set up a new government that will undertake to fulfill the principles of the Quartet, a government that will realize the Road Map and bring about the release of Gilad Shalit - I shall propose to Abu-Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) to meet him immediately, with the aim of conducting a real, open, sincere and serious dialogue between us and you."  (I have translated the words literally, since the official translation has edited the text.)

                Looks good. But if one looks again, one realizes that it is just a soap bubble.

                Since the days of Ben-Gurion, all our governments have used this tactic: say "yes" to every peace proposal, and add a small prior condition that turns "yes" into "no".

                What does Olmert demand from the Palestinian government? Little things: to recognize Israel's right to exist without fixed borders  (and without Israel recognizing the right of a Palestinian state to exist within the 1967 borders), to stop the violence (without a parallel commitment by Israel) and to recognize all the agreements signed in the past (almost all of which have been violated by Israel no less than by the Palestinians.)

                On top of this, the Palestinian government must fulfill its "obligations" under the Road Map. This ridiculous document, a product of Bush & Co., demands that the Palestinians' first step must involve dismantling all the "terror organizations". Meaning: all the military organizations of the Palestinian parties. As long as the occupation is in force, this is a completely impossible and unreasonable demand and the Palestinians, of course, do not agree. It's like demanding that Israel must dismantle the IDF as a first step.

                Olmert does not suggest that Israel, too, would follow the Road Map. According to that document, parallel to the dismantling of the Palestinian organizations, Israel must stop all settlement activities. In practice, these were not suspended for a moment and are in full swing even now.

                What will happen if the Palestinians fulfill all these one-sided conditions? Olmert will agree to meet Abu-Mazen "immediately". What for? In order to conduct a "real, open, sincere and serious dialogue."

                The words were chosen meticulously. Not "negotiations", God forbid, but "dialogue". A strictly non-committal term. If we eliminate from the text all the nice words that only serve as decorations - "immediately", "real", "open", "sincere", "serious" - all that remains is the agreement to a meeting. Perhaps there are people who are eager to meet Olmert - it's a matter of taste - but this has no political meaning at all."

  •  Your title implies rabbis dictate what happens... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dvo, Allogenes

    but unlike some other religions, a rabbi does not have ultimate power or authority over the congregation.

    Jewish people get to the hereafter based on their own lives, not by doing what some rabbi says.

    •  I don't think you know a whole lot (6+ / 0-)

      about the influence of rabbis over the government in Israel.

      What they'll do is take the issue to the courts.

      •  I know enough to say that these rabbis... (0+ / 0-)

        are not the authority and their proclamations (Halakha) either.

        According to Wikipedia:

        Reflecting the diversity of Jewish communities, somewhat different approaches to Halakha are found among Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sefardi, and Yemenite Jews. Among Ashkenazi Jews, disagreements over Halakha, and over whether Jews should continue to follow Halakha, have played a pivotal role in the emergence of Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist streams of Judaism.

        Because Halakha is developed and applied by various Halakhic authorities, rather than one sole "official voice", different individuals and communities may well have different answers to Halakhic questions. Controversies lend rabbinic literature much of its creative and intellectual appeal. With few exceptions, controversies are not settled through authoritative structures because Judaism lacks a single judicial hierarchy or appellate review process for Halakha. Instead, Jews interested in observing Halakha may choose to follow specific rabbis or affiliate with a more tightly-structured community.

        •  I will credit you with infinite knowledge (4+ / 0-)

          about Judaism.

          But this situation is all about politics, not religion.    These rabbis issue rulings like that to throw monkey wrenches into the government and stop projects they're opposed to.

          •  No rabbis... (0+ / 0-)

            on the School Board in Kansas!

            But it seems to me they too try to dictate what our schoolkids can read about evolution and intelligent design.

            All this diary should be about is the same battle we here at dKos are waging against religious fundamealist wingnuts who try to change what our kids read in school to reflect their narrow-minded political positions.  The Christian right does it here in the US, the Mullahs are doing it to Palestinian kids and the rightwingnut group of Rabbis are trying to do it in Israel.

            Same story, different religions, different countries.

            Anyone implying that this is uniquely happening in Israel is simply an intransigent Israel-hater trying to prove a point that doesn't exist in this particular debate.

            •  You STILL miss the point that Israeli (0+ / 0-)

              children are being taught..."There is no Palestine, West Bank, Gaza."

              "Israel's keeping territory, would create a revanchism for the rest of the century." Dean Rusk 9/11 happened because of our FAILED middle eastern policies.

              by mattes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 12:07:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Irrelevant (0+ / 0-)

                You are missing the point that this is just another manifestaion of religious fundamentalist wingnut crap trying to impose religious doctrine on textbook language for school children.

                This debate has nothing whatsoever to do with israel, Palestine, evolution, intelligent design, sex education, prayer in schools, etc.

                It has everything to do with secular school administrators around the world trying to stop fundamentalist clergyman of any religion or denomination from trying to put their own brand of "correctness" on what our kids read in their schools.

                We should fight it in Kansas just as hard as we fight it in Gaza City, or Tehran, or Tel Aviv.  It is inappropriate anywhere.

                •  I'm trying to understand your point. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  Are you suggesting that no diary should be written about religious fundamentalism's influence on education?

                  Or that one should not be written about religious fundamentalism's influence on education in Israel?

                  When diaries are written on Islamic fundamentalism's influence on education (and there are many such diaries, far more than what's written about Israel's educational system) in Arab/Muslim countries do you make this same "point" about how it's wrong to single out Islam or Iran, for instance?

                  Shit, I can't even type this out without laughing...!

                  The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                  by callmecassandra on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 08:46:09 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  No need to insult or be condescending (0+ / 0-)

            I never claimed to have infinite knowledge and your insinuations are pretty rude.  Why do you find it necessary to make your reply obnoxious?

            I am actually quite secular.  I do know, however, that a rabbi has less authority than a priest or an imam when it comes to professing God's law.

            I agree it is political, but the religious and political often merge.  My original comment addressed the power of rabbis to forbid.    

    •  Did you read the diary? It's the headline (5+ / 0-)

      from haaretz. The point is that the new education minister is trying to change the text books to indicate the true facts on the ground.

      And now she is afraid of death threats.

      "Israel's keeping territory, would create a revanchism for the rest of the century." Dean Rusk 9/11 happened because of our FAILED middle eastern policies.

      by mattes on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 11:13:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  This comment in the Talkback section (5+ / 0-)

    after the Haaretz article, from an American, put it this way:

    Name: Hal  

    City:  State: USA  

    Annex Westbank territory to state. Put Muslims in Dhimmi status.

    Isn't this solution where Israel has been going for some years now, going back to Rabin's peace notion of a "state-minus" for the Palestinians, which Barak actually did offer at Camp David in 2000. And these are the "liberal" guys. Liberal?

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site