Daily Kos

Rap, Hip Hop & Blacks as a Political Football

Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:51:34 PM PDT

This is my first diary.

Please understand that I'm going to be using the term "Blacks" and not "African Americans" throughout this diary because (1) I'm black and it doesn't offend me; (2) It's shorter and easier to write; and; (3) I will be referring to dark-skinned people who may or may not be American.

I've recently noticed DKos experience what appears to me to be an increasing awareness of racial issues, racism and participation in this community on the part of blacks and other minorities. In my opinion, this is a good thing. As someone who has grown by listening to the opinions of others in this community, I would like to provide some insights on a topic that I believe I know well.

With recent diaries/discussions acknowledging the importance of integrating Black viewpoints and activism into the progressive movement, I would like to discuss an issue that has been used as a wedge to separate younger (lets say under 35 years old) blacks from mainstream politics and society in general.

(fold here for easy storage)

The following Assumptions & Clarifying Statements frame this discussion. Most of these are obvious in my opinion, and yet are easily forgotten while listening to O'Reilly rant about Ludacris.

(1) "Rap is something you do, Hip-Hop is something you live." - KRS ONE. Rap is a verb. Rap Music is a noun, as is Hip-Hop. Hip-Hop refers to a culture, a community, and (once upon a time) a movement. Rap Music is a subset of Hip-Hop. Thus, blanket and arbitrary dismissal of Hip-Hop as a whole based upon one's feelings about Rap Music, is inappropriate.
(2) All consumers of Rap Music (and Hip-Hop culture) are not black people. (self-evident)
(3) All who create Rap Music are not black people. (self-evident)

Premise: Rap Music is an art form. As a style of music, it meets an objective definition of Art, as articulated here. Hip-Hop is comprised of multiple art forms. Hip Hop is at least Rap Music, multiple dance styles, aerosol art, clothing and hair styles and a personal posture.

Premise: As an art form, Rap Music is no more inherently dangerous than any other art form. Rap music is not inherently violent. I am unaware of any rap album glorifying death on a scale even approaching the 80-plus killings committed by Governor Schwarzenegger in his 1985 film, Commando. Likewise, the general mean snarkiness in some rap music is no more egregious than Bill O'Reilly's prose in Those Who Trespass. Yet, it is acknowledged as silly to indict the entirety of cinema or literature based upon the art produced by those individuals. Why is this double-standard embraced by society at large? Its frustrating. Lets just move on.

Premise: The Hip Hop community is not simply a group of self-centered misogenists.. Considered a young community until recently (Hip-Hop/Rap was "born" in the mid 70's) the Hip Hop community has always been painted with the same broad brush of apathy as is applied to Generation X as a whole. This generalization misses the point, as the Hip Hop community typically has issues on it's social agenda that do not apply to the stereotypical suburban Gen-X slacker (e.g., crime, drugs, access to education, poverty, etc.). When the Hip Hop community as a whole is prodded into action on issues relevant to them, the result can be the kind of attendance seen a the Million Man March. Rap personalities are rarely given credit for their philanthropy, from Kanye West's foundation, to Snoop Dogg funding an entire youth football league to Jay-Z's work to raise awareness of water polution problems in Africa.

Premise: The Hip Hop community cares about politics. Hip-Hop's involvement in politics and public service is relatively unknown to mainstream americans, from Russell Simmons being discussed as a successor to head the NAACP, to KRS-ONE's years of political commentary to Public Enemy's Chuck D as an icon for the political awareness of the Hip Hop generation (and an Air America radio host). Hip Hop can organize as a voting bloc. Hip Hop has a fledgling political convention.

Conclusion: Rap is not your enemy. Rap is not it's own enemy. Hip Hop is not your enemy. Perhaps the experience of the Hip Hop generation is largely different from yours. Fine. The Right has always sought to categorize "different" as "bad". On the small scale this division sows seeds of fear in individuals in whom thoughts are evoked of dangerous black and hispanic youth out to rob their houses and date their daughters. On the larger scale the Roves and O'Reillys can try to make you believe that Hip Hop has an ingrained culture of social irresponsibility and violence that calls into question the morals and political worth of those identifying with Hip Hop. It's a lie. They find examples that are isolated or can be twisted to suit their arguments. Don't take the (race?) bait.

Hip Hop, as a community, contains many smart, strong, motivated individuals. If the Progressive Big Tent is interested in having them, they are there for the taking. 18-44 year olds just don't vote regularly enough and embracing the Hip Hop generation is yet another way to appeal to interested voters. If not, they just drift through the political ocean, susceptible to making landfall at any political port. Just this month, Nas and Jay-Z released a song called "Black Republican" on Nas' latest album. Both hint at a possibility of identifying with Republicans (though they probably meant Conservatism) based on the economic philosophy that allows you to sit on big piles of ca$h while others have little. It's probably just posturing, as they acknowledge not wanting to lose site of their beginnings. But the point is, if the Progressive movement doesn't want the Hip Hop community, maybe they wind up aligned with the other guys. That would be bad.

Perhaps in future diaries I can discuss how I might suggest pulling the Hip Hop community into the Big Tent.

Poll

Prior to reading this diary, what was your opinion of Hip-Hop culture?

11%7 votes
50%31 votes
12%8 votes
16%10 votes
9%6 votes

| 62 votes | Vote | Results

Tags: Black, Black Americans, hip hop, hip-hop, minorities, Minority Voting, music, GOTV (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 55 comments

    •  welcome. (0+ / 0-)

      What would prevent Captain America from being a hero "Death, Maybe"

      by Doughnutman on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:00:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Welcome to the "club" (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      maxomai, paul2port

      I'm old enough to remember DC dance music which I think evolved into Hip Hop. You know, like any symbol, whether it's rap or the stars and bars, the misappropriation of negative associations must be met loudly and strongly by those who adopt its positive aspects. As you point out, "rap" has become a culturally short hand for loud, thuggish, drug laced illin' behavior. Great first diary.

      Oh for the days of happy music of the 80's!

      •  Thanks much (4+ / 0-)

        DC dance music? Heh-heh. I think that evolved into "Go-Go" stuff.

        Large house parties and outside parties in the parks inadvertently produced Rap in the mid 1970's. It started with folks just grabbing mics to ask if the people were enjoying the party, hyping them up. It evolved from there. The DJs were first then came the Rap.

        I grew up in NYC during that period and it was fascinating to watch and participate in.

        John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

        by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:08:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  my day is complete (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          AllisonInSeattle, malharden

          It started with folks just grabbing mics to ask if the people were enjoying the party, hyping them up. It evolved from there.

          OK, in that context it makes more sense to me.  I just learned something useful.  Thank you.  I consider it a wasted day if I don't learn something new.

          Have I ever told you about my poor memory?

          by ignorant bystander on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:08:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  yes this is all very nice (5+ / 0-)

    and i'm well aware of the ways Jay Z and others have been helping in getting young folks to vote but it is very hard to ignore the negative influences like referring to women as gold diggin' ho's and prescribing to America's consumer culture when we really shouldn't be....this is what White America sees

    how do we transcend that?

    Central PA Kossacks Austin is a big greeeen fog. (-0.12, -3.33)

    by terrypinder on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 01:58:04 PM PDT

    •  Good point. (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2, jorndorff, paul2port

      My first thought would be that it would be unwise to attempt to squash those voices in the music, even though their views can be negative and harmful.

      I sincerely believe that we can actively 'push' Rap music that is just as good music-wise, but much more positive. Mos Def's stuff, Talib Kweli's stuff, Common's stuff...

      I think that if we were exposed to these folks as much as we hear the negative, there would be some semblance of balance.

      Take Will Smith for example. He's a solid person and a decent Rap artist, but he's not thought of as a Rapper anymore. I think we who care about Hip Hop should defend Rap, cite mainstream positive rappers (yes there are few) and challenge the detractors to listen to positive Rap that we can recommend.

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:04:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's not harmful (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        ben masel, dannyinla

        Writing songs about gold digging ho's does not create gold digging ho's nor does it create a mindframe whereby all women are seen as gold digging ho's. Listening to Bob Marley does not make you smoke weed and stop shampooing. I've been listening to rastafarian reggae for years now and I'm still not convinced that Haile Selassie I is the messiah. Listening to Slayer does not make you worship satan. I've got every Black Sabbath record ever made and I don't even wear black that often, have no tattoes and listen to NPR a lot. Listening to Gospel doesn't make you oppose gay marriage.

        The idea that music creates culture and not the other way around is baseless and stupid. Do not be fooled into going down the path of separating music into "Good" and "Bad" or "Positive" and "Negative". Cuz frankly, I don't want to listen to your postive records. Will Smith is wack. If you're going to start taking away all my records about selling cocaine and making me listen to all your records about being good to your family and staying in school and getting a job I'm going to fight you because those records suck.

        If you want to talk about why kids sell cocaine or drop out of schol and what we can do to stop that, let's talk. (hint, "it ain't the music's fault") But if you want to start that conversation by dissing my record collection, talk to the hand cuz I'm not having it.

        But don't take my word for it:

        Tell 'em Frank-Zappa!

        •  Well... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          dannyinla

          I have to think it can be harmful in spots. By "it" in this situation, I don't mean Rap in general, I mean any given song in specificity.

          If a given song is played to a kid who doesn't make the distinction between fantasy violence and reality then it could harm that kid. Now, that's not a reason to supress the song. It's a reason to pay more attention to that kid and make sure either he is not exposed to the music or he has a correct context for art as fiction.

          I completely disagree that positive Rap in general is worse than negative rap, qualitatively. In terms of pure lyrical skill, Mos Def, Pharoah Monch, KRS, and Talib Kweli will hold their own with any rap artist you can name. Seriously. Will Smith is not in that conversation in terms of lyrical quality. I won't pretend that he is on the level of those other guys.

          On separating between positive and negative, I DO believe that you can make a reasonable separation, once you eliminate fictional Rap from the discussion.

          If you take social commentary Rap, lets say some old X-Clan or Professor Griff (negative) stuff from years ago and put it alongside some Talib Kweli's "Get By" (positive, or at least hopeful), you see the difference between a frustrated, adversarial approach favored by the "negative" MCs and a progressive advocacy for uplifting each other and ourselves favored by the "postive" MCs.

          I don't believe I'm being unfair in saying socially conscious MCs who are not being constructive are, essentially, negative.

          John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

          by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 04:21:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Still don't buy it (0+ / 0-)

            I still haven't met the kid who's been harmed by music. I know kids who've been harmed by poverty, by underfunded public schools. I know kids who've been harmed by bad parents and kids who've been harmed by uncaring governments and the brutalities of capitalism. I have never met a kid who's life has been effected negatively by music.

            And what's wrong with negativity in art? What are we supposed do with our negativity if not turn it into art? Where should we express mysogeny and greed and violence if not art? Isn't a CD, or a book or a canvas the best possible place for a kid to experience all the negative things in the world?

            •  OK, lets try this argument (0+ / 0-)

              You raise a fantastic point about proper forums for negativity. Art is a good place to vent. What keeps coming to mind is that painting The Scream, which until 5 minutes ago I thought was Van Gogh, and turns out is Edvard Munich http://en.wikipedia.org/... .

              Anyway, to me that picture is the oil and cardboard equivalent of NWA's F*** the Police or CPO's Ballad of a Menace. It's a harsh and horrific piece of work, but is rendered beautifully the the artist. So, I think you make a good point there.

              But, in terms of kids being negatively affected by the music, I've met some but not in the way you might think. Bad but common wisdom when I was growing up was that the fastest way out of the ghettoes was through either entertainment (Actor, Rapper, Singer) or sports. I saw more than a few smart kids waste their time chasing a rap career. I saw too many become make-pretend-gangsters so they could internalize some hard-rock experience that was not natural to them. They were plenty smart enough to go to college and didn't.

              On the other hand, I went to Jr. High with MC Lyte, who I remember as a bright, sweet girl.

              John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

              by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 05:42:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  This is a stereotype that is perpetuated (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Nina, jorndorff, rgdurst

      by the big recording companies as well...they don't want to see the growth in rap...they want the same old shit that's selling now so it's a self-perpetuating cycle. But there is amazing rap out there and most of it does not get airplay-no surprise there....the only way I know about it is because i ask my son....he's into the good stuff...lotsa Bay Area rap...

      Here is one of my favorite artists now...his name is Immortal Technique...

      Check out his lyrics. No ho's, no bling, but alot of shit for Ashcroft, Cheney, O'Reilley...

      "Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery." ---Jack Paar

      by bic momma on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:17:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's a wide range of music (5+ / 0-)

      unfortunately most of what gets played on Clear Channel and MTV is one dimensional and cartoonish. This is what ends up being portrayed as "real" to most of America.

      I was rollin' around, in my mind it occurred
      What if God was a her?
      Would I treat her the same? Would I still be runnin' game on her?
      In what type of ways would I want her?
      Would I want her for her mind or her heavenly body?
      Couldn't be out gettin' bogus with someone so godly
      If I was wit' her would I still be wantin' my ex?
      The lies, the greed, the weed, the sex
      Wouldn't be ashamed to give her part of my check
      Wearin' her cross, I mean the heart on my neck
      Her I would reflect on the streets of the Chi'
      Ride wit' her, 'cause I know for me she'd die
      Through good and bad call on her like I'm chirpin' her
      Couldn't be jealous 'cause other brothers worship her
      Walk this earth for her, glory, I'm grateful
      To be in her presence I try to stay faithful

      Common.

      Mos is doing movies. Common doing Gap commercials. Anything to focus attention on these artists is worthy and hopefully the next generation of kids will grow up wanting to mimic them instead of Puffy.

    •  I would suggest one would transcend it (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle, paul2port

      exactly the same way one would transcend stereotypes of gays...

      "Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery." ---Jack Paar

      by bic momma on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:34:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I've wondered about that too. (0+ / 0-)

      Not that I've paid that close attention, but the negative aspects do seem to get most of the play in corporate media.

      On the other hand, they were saying the same kinds of things about rock when I was in high school thirty odd years ago.  And there were always plenty of negative examples.  Remember the Doors' The End?  Do you know what that song is really about?

      And he walked on down the hallway.
      Father.  Yes, son?  I want to kill you.
      Mother, I want to...

      I always wondered what would happen if the grups ever really listened to that song.

      Have I ever told you about my poor memory?

      by ignorant bystander on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:21:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  As a writer, I would hate (0+ / 0-)

      for my work to be judged on whether or not it was positive or negative for society. That's not why I write, and I'm sure that's not why these guys rap. I'm a story teller, and I feel the need to tell a particular story, no matter how ugly others may view it - and I don't give a damn if society likes it or not.

      Rappers are telling a story about their community, and we may not always agree with it, but it's their outlet. I mean, it's all about perspective anyway.

      For someone living in the suburbs, they're so far removed from a "Gold Digging Ho". And yet, when you're young and black, and suddenly Nouveau Riche, everybody wants a piece. It's actually pretty well placed anger.

      Don't get me wrong, I miss the days of KRS-1 and Public Enemy as much as the next guy, and I think the world of Hip Hop grew a bit more shallow with the deaths of Tupac and Biggie.

      Honestly, can anyone actually recall the negative effects the films of Jean Rollin had on French society when they were released? How about music of Elvis? How about Shakespeare?

      I just voted for the next President of the United States, Barack Obama

      by harrylimelives on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:32:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  We don't need to transcend shit (5+ / 0-)

      White America needs to stop focusing on the crap (apparently impossible because people still talk about Brittany Spears like she's relevant) and focus on the high points, of which there are a lot more.  When groups like Jurassic 5 or Blackalicious get less notice than someone who just talks about bangin', that's not our fault.  I've seen clips of silly entertainment shows where they'll actually highlight lyrics of a song that was never meant to played on the radio.  Meanwhile, there's Mr. Lif who has a whole song running down the history of the Republican/Saddam Hussein love affair and that'll never get any play in White America simply because it doesn't feed into the stereotype of bloodthirsty, ignorant black people.  

      Outta here, I don't deal well with sites that condone racism.

      by fabooj on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 04:07:00 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  But people like you and me (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        AllisonInSeattle, dannyinla

        ...need to step up and point out these artists to those who only tune their radios to stations where Fergie talks about her "humps", and they think that's what Rap is.

        We know better.

        Rap doesn't need to change, it just needs exposure in places that know no better.

        John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

        by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 04:23:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Of course... (0+ / 0-)

        ...corporate America is going to make sure to promote rappers that play into stereotypes of bling and 'hos and give suburban kids a vicarious thrill of violence. They're not terribly interested in rappers who have a lot to say about the world and make astute observations. The same could be said for any genre of popular music, I think. But possibly more so for rap and hiphop.

      •  you know, I agree with you (0+ / 0-)

        you set me straight. it's not OUR problem, it's THEIRS.

        Central PA Kossacks Austin is a big greeeen fog. (-0.12, -3.33)

        by terrypinder on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 09:44:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Not just golddiggin hos (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      metal prophet, malharden

      It seems you're referencing Kanye's "Gold Digger", but there's far more subtext to that song and his entire album. Someone like Kanye offers far more positive influence than negative... but one has to get past the initial reaction and listen to the message. If only white artists wrote about culture with as much power as Kanye.

      Crack Music

      How we stop the black panthers?
      Ronald Reagan cooked up an answer
      You hear that?
      What Gil Scott was hearin
      When our heroes and heroines got hooked on heroin.
      Crack raised the murder rate in DC and Maryland
      We invested in that it's like we got Merril-Lynched
      And we been hangin from the same tree ever since
      Sometimes I feel the music is the only medicine
      So we cook it, cut it, measure it, bag it,sell it
      the fiends cop it
      nowadays they cant tell if that's that good shit
      we ain't sure man
      put the CD on your toungue yeah, thats pure man.

      Diamonds from Sierra Leone

      Good morning! This ain't Vietnam, still
      People loses hands, legs, arms, for real
      Little was known of Sierra Leone
      and how it connected to the diamonds we own
      When I speak of diamonds in the song
      I ain't talking bout the ones to be glown
      I'm talkin' bout Roc-a-Fella, my home
      My chain, these ain't 'Conflict Diamonds'
      Is they Jacob? Don't lie to me, man
      See, a part of me say keep shinin'
      How? When I know what a 'Blood Diamond' is
      Though it's thousands of miles away
      Sierra Leone connected to what we go through today
      Over here, it's a drug trade, we die from drugs
      Over there, they die from what we buy from drugs
      The diamonds, the chains, the bracelets, the charms-es
      I thought my Jesus piece was so harmless
      'Til I seen a picture of a shorty armless

  •  ... (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    rgdurst, paul2port, malharden

    Rap Music is an art form. As a style of music, it meets an objective definition of Art,

    ...and further substantiated in his forward to the book, Hip Hop & Philosophy/Rhyme 2 Reason by Dr. Cornel West

    "Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery." ---Jack Paar

    by bic momma on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:06:23 PM PDT

    •  Cornel West is fantastic (4+ / 0-)

      He is an awesome author, although the Princeton pedigree makes him predictably cerebral.

      I read Race Matters with one hand on the dictionary, and I loved him in the Matrix movies.

      I'll pick up that book. Thanks for the suggestion.

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:15:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  OMG!...you are SO right! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        malharden

        I read Race Matters with one hand on the dictionary

        ,

        It's that way for me and everything I read of his. I love the way he thinks...and speaks. Even the forward to HipHop Philosophy we were grabbin the dictionary!...and makes me want to study Plato and Socrates, to whom he is constantly referring...

        "Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery." ---Jack Paar

        by bic momma on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:21:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Resurgence (6+ / 0-)

    Even though they've mostly been around for a while, it's been gratifying over the last year and a half or so to see Mos Def, Talib Kweli, The Roots, The Coup. Common, Pharoahe Monch, and Dead Prez all get boosts into more mainstream music consciousness, esp. through Chappelle's Block Party movie. That edge of social commentary and realism had been missing from the party for too long.

    Along with them are the backpack rappers like Aesop Rock, Atmosphere, and Cadence Weapon. All in all, I think the genre right now is in the best shape it's been in for at least a decade. Support the true artists and let them take their message to the people.

    •  Agreed. (7+ / 0-)

      I have to remember to play up the positive artists just as much as the neutral or predominantly negative. Nas and Ice Cube are guilty pleasures, but Roots are just as enjoyable.

      Chappelle has been KEY in getting lesser known rap artists into the mainstream. Kanye's body of work propelled him into a large enough spotlight to say "George Bush doesn't care about black people" and be heard. We need to get more of these artists to a position prominently enough that they can be heard, even if there is reason to disagree with them. I wish they could get on Olberman or Stewart, or hell, even Kimmel.

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:21:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        rgdurst

        Ghostface was my only real guilty pleasure of 2006, unless you include the crazies like Kool Keith.

        To be honest, I think there needs to be a fresh start. I'd love to see a boycott of MTV, with rappers yanking their videos out of rotation (or what's left of it). I think BET is done, it's just completely useless. I'd like to see an entrepreneur (or better yet a coalition of people) start up a new cable channel to get their voices heard. Completely pie-in-the-sky, but I think the market is there if the will to create it could happen. Mos is so talented, he could BE the next Stewart or Olbermann if the planning and timing was right.

        I can't take anymore of MTV's 30 minutes of Kanye saying homophobia is wrong, then 60 minutes of that Dipset moron Jim Jones talking about how he has the right to be homophobic if he wants.

        •  True (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Skennet Boch

          Some of those guys like Jim Jones and, say, Lil' Jon, are just embarassing human beings. I just wish they'd go away, because like Chris Rock says, their stuff is indefensible. And to top it off, it's terrible musically.

          Have you seen Chuck D's media outlet, Rapstation: http://www.rapstation.com/ . Maybe he could take over MTV3 or something. ;-)

          John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

          by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:46:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  asdf (6+ / 0-)

    I'm a white, grandmother, and from the 60s.  The other day, I for some unexplicable reason watched 8 Mile with Eminem.  Much to my amazement, I enjoyed the movie and even the rapping.  Hearing it in some sort of context was a revelation.  There is no doubt as to the skill and talent it takes.  I loved the end when Slim Shady calls out the other guy for having attended a school in a rich suburb of Detroit.  It was like reminding Bush that his cowboy wasn't real.  Welcome to dkos.

    ...once you're willing to say whatever it takes to win, you lose. ~~Dean

    by dkmich on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:18:02 PM PDT

  •  It depends on the type of hip hop (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    malharden, mistletoe, Phil N DeBlanc

    Gangsta rap does NOT help black youths. It doesn't help when you're wearing jeans that sag half-way down your ass, wear "bling bling," or wear those baseball caps where the front is completely straight.
    OTHO, political hip hop can be positive, and some hip hop groups like Public Enemy, Outkast and the Fugees (will they ever get back together?) are not gangsta either.

    ...Also, why is someone who speaks in ebonics and dresses in hip hop clothes considered "black," but if a black person dresses in a polo shirt or sweater and talks in a standard midwestern dialect (ie. "normal" American english) that he is considered "white" or an "Oreo?"

    •  I have mixed feelings about this (5+ / 0-)

      ..because all Rap Music is not obligated to help black youths. Part of me wishes that it would help, but artistic expression sometimes is only about exhaling some emotion in the way most comfortable to the artist.

      I have heard, and presently own, some of the hardest, harshest, angriest music ever written. It's true and there's no defending that. But, does "Catcher in the Rye" help white youth? It's just a bit of art capturing a Coming of Age.

      On the clothing/dress issues, I do agree that these clothing statements do not belong in a professional or educational setting. In those settings, the individual's image is important and so is showing a level of respect for whatever institution you're serving at the time. But if the kid's just headed to 7-11, he gets to wear what he wants, and we can't judge that book by it's cover.

      Man, I wish the Fugees would get back together. :-) But meanwhile, Wycleff Jean, as a solo, composes, arranges, performs and distributes some of the most beautiful and complex pieces of contemporary Hip Hop. "Three Night in Rio" blew me away with what a beautiful piece of music it was.

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 02:34:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  did ya have to (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      metal prophet, MacheteJames

      call a standard midwestern dialect the "normal" american english when there's no such thing as either?

      some of us like our northeastern or Philly or Southern dialects jus' fine and consider them just as normal awhile.

      (plus you answered your own question. lol)

      Central PA Kossacks Austin is a big greeeen fog. (-0.12, -3.33)

      by terrypinder on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:03:09 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It depends on the type of American Literature (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      malharden

      Mark Twain does NOT help white youths. It doesn't help when you wear overalls and no shoes and smoke a corncob pipe and go around using the n-word.

      OTOH, political books can be positive, and some American writers like Ayn Rand, William F. Buckley, and the Algonquin Roundtable (will they ever get back together?) are not gangsta either.

  •  Interesting (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    AllisonInSeattle, rgdurst, malharden
    This is a huge discussion that we need to have as we wind up for Chicago. Hip-hop has a huge influence on the activist community there, and not just because of "minority issues." Cf Bomb the Suburbs and No More Prisons. If we're going to be a revolutionary, as opposed to evolutionary, force, then this same mindset has to penetrate the larger bloggosphere.

    My only nitpick is that I'm starting to see other forms of hiphop music emerge (DJ-based stuff like Gnarls Barkley, sorry, too old to know the proper slang) and old forms (house) come back to life, so I'm not sure it makes sense to limit the musical discussion to rap.

  •  The wonderful thing about art... (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    malharden

    ...is that it needs no societal priority to be worthy.  It doesn't matter if hip-hop or rap is beneficial to society; it justifies itself on artistic standards alone.

    The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it. ~ H.L. Mencken

    by Jay Elias on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 03:12:35 PM PDT

  •  It's too loud. I'm too old. (2+ / 0-)

    Resident Rap Writer. You've got the title, if you want it.

    I'm glad you got the ball rolling on this topic.  The messages and artists are so diverse that it is difficult to discuss the genre without stereotyping.

    To the extent that an artist is all about himself, getting some, and disrespect of others he's not welcome here. That personal view expresses a  world view most here abhor.

    Back in the day, he said adjusting his bifocals, rock music was criticized in the same way. When it was new and fresh, threatening and bold, challenging and relevant. Hey ...

    Where'd all those kids go? I was just getting to the good part.

    Damn.

    Peace. Uh...

    Peace out.

    •  Too loud? (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle, paul2port

      Rap's got you covered. Turns out there's a song for you:

      http://www.youtube.com/...

    •  Thanks [grin] (3+ / 0-)

      I think you are on point that with the diversity across the genre it's difficult to be correct about any generality.

      Please understand though, an artist who raps about himself, getting some and disrespect may not be "about" those things, personally. He may be angling for what he or his label believe will sell records.

      I work in a corporate setting, and on the rare occasino that rap comes up one of the most difficult things to get folks to internalize is that most rap is not autobiographical.

      A rapper who says "I want to kill somebody" probably doesn't want to kill somebody. He wants to sell a record to someone who wants to listen to a story about a guy who wants to kill somebody.

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 04:10:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Seriously, keep writing (0+ / 0-)

        Take us through your favorites. Artists. Songs.  Performances. Whatever.

        Personally I relate to the message of reggae more. Third World. Toots. Jimmy Cliff and above all Bob Marley.

        Exodus

        Exodus: movement of jah people! oh-oh-oh, yea-eah!
        .......
        Men and people will fight ya down (tell me why!)
        When ya see jah light. (ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!)
        Let me tell you if youre not wrong; (then, why? )
        Everything is all right.
        So we gonna walk - all right! - through de roads of creation:
        We the generation (tell me why!)
        (trod through great tribulation) trod through great tribulation.

        Exodus, all right! movement of jah people!
        Oh, yeah! o-oo, yeah! all right!
        Exodus: movement of jah people! oh, yeah!

        Yeah-yeah-yeah, well!
        Uh! open your eyes and look within:
        Are you satisfied (with the life youre living)? uh!
        We know where were going, uh!
        We know where were from.
        Were leaving babylon,
        Were going to our father land.

        2, 3, 4: exodus: movement of jah people! oh, yeah!
        (movement of jah people!) send us another brother moses!
        (movement of jah people!) from across the red sea!
        (movement of jah people!) send us another brother moses!
        (movement of jah people!) from across the red sea!
        Movement of jah people!

        Exodus, all right! oo-oo-ooh! oo-ooh!
        Movement of jah people! oh, yeah!
        Exodus!
        Exodus! all right!
        Exodus! now, now, now, now!
        Exodus!
        Exodus! oh, yea-ea-ea-ea-ea-ea-eah!
        Exodus!
        Exodus! all right!
        Exodus! uh-uh-uh-uh!

        Move! move! move! move! move! move!

        Open your eyes and look within:
        Are you satisfied with the life youre living?
        We know where were going;
        We know where were from.
        Were leaving babylon, yall!
        Were going to our fathers land.

        Exodus, all right! movement of jah people!
        Exodus: movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!

        Move! move! move! move! move! move! move!

        Jah come to break downpression,
        Rule equality,
        Wipe away transgression,
        Set the captives free.

        Exodus, all right, all right!
        Movement of jah people! oh, yeah!
        Exodus: movement of jah people! oh, now, now, now, now!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!

        Move! move! move! move! move! move! uh-uh-uh-uh!
        Move(ment of jah people)!
        Move(ment of jah people)!
        Move(ment of jah people)!
        Move(ment of jah people)! movement of jah people!
        Move(ment of jah people)!
        Move(ment of jah people)!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah people!
        Movement of jah peopl

      •  Also (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        paul2port, malharden

        A pretty good majority of threats of violence are metaphorical. One of the original purposes of hip-hop was to take the violent confrontations of gangs and turn them into positive artistic confrontations. Hence rap and b-boy battles where agression and rivalry are expressed artistically. That being said, hip-hop being a post-modern art form, has always blurred the lines between fact and fiction; artist and artform. For example, this new song by Prodigy from Mobb Deep: I'm pretty sure there's some elements of autobiography there.

        •  Prodigy... (0+ / 0-)

          ...is an example of a guilty pleasure.

          He's an incredible lyricist, and his production is generally tight. Shook Ones Pt. 2 is one of the grittiest records ever made IMHO. But he has never turned a corner and expanded his craft by applying it to topics other than some variation of Wine, Women and Song. Actually the Hell On Earth and Murda Muzik albums are both entrancingly solid artistically, and alarmingly harsh. They are examples of stuff I will have to hide when my kid gets a little older.

          Remember when Ice Cube released Today Was A Good Day? You knew 'Cube had turned a corner. He was capable of not just rapping about lemons but also lemonade.

          Prodigy has skills and heart, but just ain't there yet.

          John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

          by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 05:53:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Is rap music? (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    malharden

    did you happen to catch Liam S diary of that title?

    some good discussion.

    If you aren't outraged, you are an idiot

    by indefinitelee on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 08:17:04 PM PDT

    •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

      Can't believe I missed that.

      I would have loved to have been part of that discussion. Naturally I think Rap is music, and it's interesting how far in he boxes his definition to suit his analysis.

      He may as well have asked "Is Blue a Color" and then ratcheted down his range of the visible spectrum accordingly. Maybe I'll "subscribe" to him and see if he brings up the topic again.

      Thanks for the Tip!

      John McCain: Like Hope, But Different.

      by malharden on Thu Dec 28, 2006 at 09:21:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Prior opinion (0+ / 0-)

    Hip-hop is a youth movement, something young people create to identify with. Has always been so, will always be so, that such movements exist.

    In part embodies their ideals, probably in part embodies not-so-great ideals, as it itself is a Big Tent.

    No reason to have any animosity towards it. Yet I'll never fully understand it, as not a part of it. OTOH, I don't need to understand it fully.

    Hope you do more diaries, big yes on the "how to include".

    Be good to each other. It matters.

    by AllisonInSeattle on Fri Dec 29, 2006 at 12:09:03 PM PDT

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