Is "You're a Monkey" OK at DK?
Sun Dec 03, 2006 at 06:17:33 PM PDT
Senator George Allen apologized for calling a James Webb campaign worker "MACACA". Will DK Al Gore supporter ---*--- apologize for calling me "monkey" in comments here at DailyKos? MACACA MOMENT
The Dkosopedia says in its article on TROLL RATING that among types of trolling are "Personal attacks on other site users", while specifically noting that, while "there are times when a little creative incivility is much needed",
Sexist or racist language . . . is not welcome. TROLL RATING
Is it acceptable to call a Black man a "monkey" in comments at DailyKos? Yesterday, a DailyKos participant and Al Gore supporter had a veritable "macaca" moment in the comments to a diary about Al Gore growing tobacco and accepting contributions from tobacco interests for six years after his sister died of cancer. GORE TOBACCO HYPOCRISY DIARY
Things got quite hot Saturday when I posted my DIARY opining that the "Old Al Gore" was a transparent hypocrite and a poor politician for raising the issue of tobacco in his 2000 Democratic Convention Speech in spite of his tobacco past, inviting the charges of hypocrisy that followed in the New York Times and Washington Post, among others. NYT HITS AL GORE'S HYPOCRISY WaPOST HITS AL GORE'S HYPOCRISY
In the comments to this diary, as often happens at DailyKos, we began to discuss our personal reasons for supporting and opposing candidates. In a long and winding conversation with DailyKos Gore supporters, I talked about being a Black man in the United States and I made reference to the unarmed Black man whom New York City Police recently killed with 51 bullets fired. Referring to my own longstanding decision not to return to the United States, I said:
What happened in NY to the groom who stayed? (0 / 0)
I'm a black man. Simple statistics tell me that I have a lesser chance of being targeted for official violence in many other countries than I have in the United States. Other countries don't have the death penalty and many countries' police are not allowed to carry weapons. So, I am safer overseas than I am at home.
This is my philosophy: Birds fly south for the winter to avoid freezing to death. I am perfectly justified to flee the United States to avoid having 51 bullets pumped into my chest, as happened with the unarmed groom in New York on his wedding day.
The US Constitution gives us the freedom to travel and I exercise that freedom - while I still have it.
Read and reason.
by francislholland on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 07:15:54 AM PST MY COMMENT
Later in this thread, a commenter wrote the following:
I didn't say that you didn't report what Gore said.
I asked why you accept the NYT's and the WaPo's own interpretation of the events -- when they clearly are omitting relevant facts like Gore's efforts to put stronger warning labels on cigarettes in the 80s-- and why do you dismiss Gore's explanation at the same time. Why would the NYT and the WaPo have more credibility on this than Gore? In fact they don't but you don't care.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
Because you are a two-dimensional shallow monkey that's why it doesn't make sense to you.
Guess what? Gore's brain doesn't work like yours.
Thank God. But that doesn't make him a hypocrite.
SNIP
He has more crediblity on tobacco than anyone who is running now.
Certainly more than Hillary who did nothing on this issue whatsoever.
And this whole 'new Gore' bullshit is your stupid invention. There is no 'new Gore'. It's the same guy.
by stardate on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 10:06:06 AM PST
GORE SUPPORTER’S COMMENT
In response, I said this:
You've called a black man a "monkey" (0 / 0)
Is this your "macaca" moment?
Because you are a two-dimensional shallow monkey that's why it doesn't make sense to you.
That's a new low at DailyKos. You get my first troll rating, and it's not for any opinion of yours and not because I don't like your facts. It's simply because, when you couldn't win your argument with facts and reasoning, you degrade yourself and our conversation with skin-color-based epithets. I, personally, have never seen that before at DailyKos, and I consider it exceptional. You're troll-rated, but only for that.
Can I troll-rate? I'm going to try, but I have already troll-rated you in word if not in deed.
Read and reason.
by francislholland on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 10:46:45 AM PST
And I received the following responses from stardate and others:
• On the internet... (0 / 0)
no one has to know you are black. I find it very interesting that you jump to that, as it turns out we can't see you. While I can see you have made comments that denote your skin color, it takes a little digging. My republican brother has refered to me as a surrender-monkey, note it contains the word monkey, yet I am white. That said it could be a racist remark, or it could be just a garden variety insult.
One last thing, if you read beyond the monkey comment, there is actually quite a bit of reasoning and facts in that post.
by Tonedevil on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 11:19:14 AM PST
[ Parent ]
o I mentioned that I'm black up-thread (0 / 0)
Maybe it was a garden variety insult when Governor Geo. Allen said it, too. People should be careful about their "garden variety" insults, since they can clearly come back to haunt us.
Read and reason.
by francislholland on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 12:23:48 PM PST
[ Parent ]
• I don't care about your color. You are a monkey. (0 / 0)
Do you fucking care about anything else other than people's gender and color? Get a life.
That's a new low at DailyKos.
Your dishonest tirade is the new low on DailyKos.
You get my first troll rating
Ah, horrible. Horrible. Now I will go and jump from the Golden Gate Bridge.
and it's not for any opinion of yours and not because I don't like your facts. It's simply because, when you couldn't win your argument with facts and reasoning
I won the argument long time ago. You just can't deal with the facts or come up with any coherent response.
You don't even know Clinton's unfavorable rating in 2000. So what can anyone do with you? Call you a monkey. That's it.
you degrade yourself and our conversation with skin-color-based epithets.
Yeah because every monkey is black. You know as much about zoology as about Gore's record.
I, personally, have never seen that before at DailyKos, and I consider it exceptional. You're troll-rated, but only for that.
Now you see it. Here it is again: you are a monkey.
But that maybe an insult to monkeys.
Can I troll-rate? I'm going to try, but I have already troll-rated you in word if not in deed.
Any new info about Gore's fight against tobacco companies in the 80s or all you can do now is to threaten people with troll rating carpet bombing?
by stardate on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 12:00:24 PM PST
[ Parent ]
o There, you said it again! (0 / 0)
Read and reason.
by francislholland on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 12:24:41 PM PST
I can say it again if you like it so much. (0 / 0)
You are a monkey.
But like I said that may insult the monkeys.
by stardate on Sat Dec 02, 2006 at 01:36:11 PM PST
Is it permissible to knowingly, intentionally and repeatedly call a Black man "monkey" in comments at DailyKos?
Certainly, arguments become heated and people often say things they do not mean or have not fully considered. But stardate was in a thread in which I had mentioned my skin-color upthread. I also informed stardate that I am Black after he called me "monkey" the first time.
To which stardate responded,
Now you see it. Here it is again: you are a monkey.
GORE SUPPORTER’S MACACA MOMENT
I would certainly hope there are more responsible and respectful ways to defend Al Gore. But, at the very least, I would hope that a judicious Gore supporter would have the good political judgment to avoid engaging in skin-color-antagonistic insults, particularly after all of us at DailyKos decried the unacceptable "macaca" comment of Senator George Allen just a short time ago.
In this case, was stardate’s color-associated comment intentional? Consider that he said the following before escalating to color insults:
It would help either. You think and talk like (1+ / 0-)
a child. How old are you? GORE SUPPORTER’S MACACA MOMENT
Quite recently, Senator George Allen apologized for calling a minority James Webb campaign worker "macaca". KOS' DIARY ABOUT "MACACA" EPITHET Will stardate apologize for calling me "monkey"?
I also find another commenter's contribution to be replete with meaning:
On the Internet, no one has to know you are black.
I am a Black man. I own my skin-color openly on the Internet because it is an integral part of the man I am and it informs the opinions I hold. Even if I could avoid being called a "monkey" on the Internet by hiding the fact that I am Black, I would not hide my identity in a digital computer closet. I am an "out" Black man, even though my "outness" and openness about being Black challenges other users to deal and cope with my blackness maturely and responsibly.
Is DailyKos a place to reaffirm who we are and to advocate from a place of personal strength, or is DailyKos a place to hide from who we are and escape sexism and racism through gender and skin-color anonymity? Can we really advocate for what is important to us while hiding from others who "us" is?
I commend this Gore supporter for his spirited defense of Al Gore, but when he knowingly, intentionally and repeatedly calls a Black man "monkey", I think he goes too far.
AUTHOR'S NOTE: DailyKos participants who disagree with the opinions expressed and facts reported in this diary are encouraged to do so by offering other opionions and facts rather than by deleting the diary Tags that enable other readers to find this diary. Only trusted DailyKos users (TU's) can delete tags. DK FAQ RE: TAGS Deleting Tags is a form of censorship and/or childish vandalism that has no place and should not be tolerated at DailyKos.
