Daily Kos

FL-13: Should Congress Decide?

Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:29:56 AM PDT

In a forceful op-ed in today's Roll Call, noted election law professor Rick Hasen argues that the courts are unlikely to provide a remedy to the FL-13 dispute, and that it's the obligation of Congress to step in.  First, what went wrong?

What accounts for the high undervote rate in Sarasota County, in a hard-fought Congressional race in a swing district? Machine malfunction remains a possibility, but based on the evidence available thus far, the most likely culprit appears to be poor ballot design. In Sarasota County — but not in Charlotte County — the 13th district race appeared on the second electronic "page" of the electronic ballot, right at the top of the page above a larger heading for state races. A number of voters appeared to have missed the race because of its placement on the page.

A recent academic analysis by Laurin Frisina, Michael Herron, James Honaker and Jeffrey Lewis notes that in Charlotte County, the undervote rate in the state attorney general race was huge. In Charlotte — but not in Sarasota — the attorney general race was paired with another contest on the same electronic ballot page, mirroring the placement of the House race on the Sarasota County ballot. Fortunately for Floridians, the race for attorney general was not close.

A separate analysis recently completed by the Sarasota Herald-Tribune bolsters the poor ballot design hypothesis. Looking at every ballot cast in the county, the newspaper found that the people you’d most expect to vote in the House race — loyal party voters who voted Republican or Democrat throughout the ballot — were the ones most likely to have skipped voting in the race.

And here's what to do about it, argues Hasen:

The House can — and should — declare the seat vacant, requiring the seat to be filled by a special election. ...

Overturning an election in the courts is tough, absent proof of fraud or proof that legal votes were not counted.

But there is another option. The Constitution provides that "Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members ... ." The House has resolved disputed elections before. For two reasons, the House should declare the seat vacant, triggering a special election.

First, the House is not bound by the restrictive rules for ordering new elections that courts are. Assuming that the problem was poor ballot design, why should voters be victims of the design incompetence of election administrators? The fair thing to do — even if it is not legally compelled — is to hold a new election where everyone in the district gets to vote. ...

A side benefit will be that the controversy will focus attention on problems with election administration, and get Congress and the country thinking more about the problems with how we administer our elections....

[S]ome argue that it would be bad precedent to let the House make this decision on extralegal grounds.  But just like the House makes a political judgment as to what constitutes grounds for impeachment, it can make decisions about new elections on a political basis as well. A Democratic House’s decision to grant a revote in these circumstances is a lot less likely to contribute to partisanship in Congress than was the Republican House’s decision to impeach then-President Bill Clinton.

More importantly, such political judgments are self-limiting. If the Democratic House started overturning election results for no good reason, voters would see such moves as illegitimate and vote the Democrats out of office.

Noted Democratic election law attorney Bob Bauer thinks such talk is a bit premature, and Jennings has until December 20 to ask the Committee on House Administration to investigate.

I will confess some doubt as to whether one of the first moves of the new Democratic majority ought to be involvement in settling this election, but that's an argument about political pragmatism and not the merits.  It seems pretty clear that the results recorded by the machines do not reflect the voters' intent, so what are we to do about it?

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Tags: fl-13, christine jennings, recount, election integrity, 2006 elections (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 179 comments

  •  Told you it was ballot design (5+ / 0-)

    Just sayin' -  and I do think it was malfeasance on the part of Dem officials not to insure this would not happen in terms of ballot design.

    •  Why? (3+ / 0-)

      Why was this necessary? They run out of pixels if they used more screens? How could you be so stupid as to not put each race on a different screen?

      That's just dumb, lazy, or ... well that's all I can come up with.

      disclaimer: I'm John Kerry's Internet Director

      by BriVT on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:56:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Without standards (9+ / 0-)

      I'm afraid this is all-too-easy a thing to happen.  In retrospect sure we can see the problem.  Prospectively it's kind of hard to know exactly which flaw is going to cause undervotes.  

      I suspect this ballot was laid out by the computer -- when it reached the end of the screen it simply waited and put the next race on the next screen.  I'm not even sure that you would want the ballots to be subject to redesign by actual people who might deliberately try to skew the results (although, of course, election committees are structured to make that more difficult).

      Instead, I think that a set of standards needs to be developed that will allow the machine to "process" the ballot correctly.  The most immediate thing that springs to mind is requiring a "do not choose to vote" option for each race and not allowing the voter to move to the next page until all races are marked, either with the name of a candidate or with the "no vote" option.  In addition, it could be stipulated that all races must be on a separate page and all candidates or ballot provisions listed on the same page.

      Also, the need for these standards exists regardless of whether the machines are voter-verifiable paper trail or not.

      John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

      by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:57:46 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Who sets these standards and how (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ahianne, Big Tent Democrat

        do we influence them?

        •  I have no idea. (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          decon, Ahianne

          At present, of course, elections are handled on either a state or a local level.  There's no standardization and, to the best of my knowledge, the only federal standards have to do with things like the Voting Rights act to protect election access for minorities.

          Influence could come from:

          • Congressional laws.
          • Dictates from the Federal Elections Commission.
          • Standards set by a national body of elections supervisors, if such a body exists.
          • Public pressure.

          John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

          by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:15:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You know who should have had an idea? (0+ / 0-)

            The Democratic officials in Florida.

            •  No. . . (7+ / 0-)

              They should have had an idea how to set up their ballots.  But in terms of national standards?  I don't think we can leave these kinds of standards decisions at the local level.  First off, I'm not sure we can trust election boards at the local level.  Secondly, we will wind up with a mish-mash of standards and we'll be arguing whether an election can be considered valid if it didn't hew to the tougher standards from the next county.  Finally, and most importantly, there are going to be a lot of difficult and non-obvious decisions to be made.  I don't think the local folks will necessarily be able to do that.

              We can blame the local officials in hindsight for this failure or that failure.  But the idea of wiping out failures and ensuring that all voters will see and vote on all races is a national standards issue.

              John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:32:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Congress makes the law for federal elections (4+ / 0-)

                All that has to happen is for the Congress to pass a law stating that in federal elections (Pres/House of Rep/Senate) the election must conform to the following regulations. Such as a requirement that "chose not to vote" option be included when electronic machines are used.  In addition, Congress could require that some type of selection on every federal race be made before the vote can be cast.

                Although Congress only sets standards for federal elections, in reality the feds control all elections.  It is much too cumbersome and expensive for elections officials to run part of election with one standard (federal) and another part (state and local) under another set.  Even if no federal offices are on the ballot, it is easier and cheaper to run the election under same standards as federal elections.  IOW, all elections default to the federal standards.

                The idea of a "no selection made" option is very interesting.  It would certainly remove any doubt about the voter's intent.  It all is in the spirit of the review page and "confirm vote" page currently on most electronic machines.  Give the voter every opportunity to make sure the ballot casts reflects his/her intent.

                Very interesting thought.

                "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

                by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:02:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  If it's done by the computer (0+ / 0-)

        Then program the computer to repeat the last header at the top of every new page. It's still stupid.

      •  A "do not choose" option is a great idea - eom (0+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mad Mom
      •  The standards should be tested (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mad Mom

        then revised and retested until they get them right.  The time to do this testing is before the elections.  Sheesh.  Testing in production is generally not considered a good idea.

        "O, mia patria sė bella e perduta!" -- T. Solera

        by Chris 47N122W on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:03:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  cramming too many races on one page (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Mad Mom, Marcus Graly

      is pretty stupid. Add a page. This is electronic, electrons aren't very expensive.

      •  It should be easy ... (0+ / 0-)

        to not start a new category in the middle of a page.  That is, whenever a group of races overflows to a new page, repeat the title with "(CONTINUED)" added.  End the display with the last race falling under that group.

        Start the next title on a new page.

        Also, when there is more to display on a page, it's considered good practice for systems with trained users, to print "MORE" somewhere on the bottom line of the screen.  In this case, with untrained users, I'd expand on that to something like "(group name) CONTINUED ON THE NEXT SCREEN".

        I've done that sort of thing many, many times.  No big deal.

        Also, it goes without saying that it should be a rule that races are not split across screens.  

        The point is, I can't believe there are no national rules about this sort of thing.

        Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool all most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% all the time...."

        by Helpless on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:35:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No ballot design can compensate for stupid voters (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      sphealey, Paver

      That's the bottom line.  The minute you think you've made something idiot proof, they build a better idiot.

      •  blaming the voters (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Major Danby, Sanuk, Jay D

        I don't think that blaming the voters is helpful to this discussion, and I have not seen any proof that the undervote problem in Sarasota is due to 18,000 "stupid voters", as you put it.  

      •  "No ballot design..." Not Helpful (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Mad Mom

        Maybe it was an unfortunate event that that race got buried only in the heavily Dem county.

        Then again, maybe the client, or the project manager, or the screen designer, or the programmer, viewing test results that used real data, previewed how the race would appear in the various counties and decided to remove the "page eject" to create the unfair result.

        A simple change, one that would probably slip by without anyone else noticing.

        Either way, it appears nearly 18,000 citizens were deprived of their right to vote.

        And without rules, it's just too easy to rig an election this way.

        Bush Administration: Proving the saying, "You can fool all most of the people some of the time, and 30% 24% all the time...."

        by Helpless on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:47:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have a sample ballot (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, Mad Mom, Sanuk, Chris 47N122W

      ...that was mailed to Sarasota voters.  It's different from the look on the screen. 18,000 obviously expected one kind of look and got another. This stinks to high hell.

    •  It looks to have been *both* malfunction (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Major Danby

      and ballot design. The problem is, now that they've identified ballot design as a significant—perhaps even primary—factor, it's as if the malfunctions never happened and couldn't have swayed the race. Malfunctions did happen, and they could have changed the results even without the bad ballot design.

      We have two contributing hypotheses, and evidence supporting both to various degrees. The safest—and fairest—thing is to re-run the election.

      © sardonyx; all rights reserved

      by sardonyx on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:01:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Disturbing that the media and others (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sardonyx

        all seemed to have jumped on the ballot design as "the reason" for the undervote. Typical that people are drawn to an easy answer to a complex problem.  This simple solution totally ignores the HUNDREDS of people in Sarasota County who testified that they voted for a candidate in the FL-13 Congressional race, but their vote did not appear on the review page.  The question is how many people thought they voted for a candidate in this race and pushed the vote button without reviewing.  Or maybe they did review, but because of the large number of races (there were numerous judges and amendments on this ballot), overlooked a missing vote in the Congressional race.  But...no....we have our answer to this problem even before an independent audit has been performed on the software used in all of the touch screens in Sarasota County.  
        Of course, it is the ballot design..simple and easy answer and protects the integrity of the machines, which is really the goal of the state election officials.

  •  while we're talking election law (15+ / 0-)

    The Washington Post has an editorial today advocating passage of S. 1508, which we've been advocating for quite some time:

    Dark Ages Disclosure
    It's time for the Senate to bring its campaign filing system into the modern era.

    THREE YEARS AGO we wrote an editorial using the headline above. It decried the senseless and costly loophole under which people running for the Senate -- alone among federal political candidates and committees -- aren't required to file campaign finance reports electronically. In an age when such reports can be filed with the click of a mouse, Senate candidates submit their disclosures on paper, with weeks of delay before they are transferred to a form available and searchable on the Internet. As a result, in the final stretch of campaigns, anyone interested in learning who is bankrolling Senate candidates or how they are spending the cash has to go page by page through voluminous reports. This delay is so obviously unjustified that we expected the legal glitch to be quickly fixed.

    Naive us. Three years later, the situation remains unaddressed. ...

    It would be easy to change the rule, and the Senate should do so in the final days of the 109th Congress. More than 20 senators, of both parties, have signed on to S.1508, the Senate Campaign Disclosure Parity Act. If any senator opposes requiring electronic filing, none is willing to say so. ...To put it bluntly: Republicans, why let the new Democratic majority get credit for making this obvious fix? Do it now, while you're still in charge.

    •  What?? The Washington Post expects... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      DBunn

      That the Do Nothing Republican Congress might actually, you know, "do something" for the good of the country?  Naive them is right. Too bad they haven't learned anything in the three years.

      Also, Adam, I disagree with your statement in the diary:

      I will confess some doubt as to whether one of the first moves of the new Democratic majority ought to be involvement in settling this election, but that's an argument about political pragmatism and not the merits.  It seems pretty clear that the results recorded by the machines do not reflect the voters' intent, so what are we to do about it?

      Why? Because Congress has three options:

      1. Declare Buchanan (R) the winner.
      1. Declare the Dem the winner.
      1. Declare a new election.

      Choice number one is the default option if congress doesn't act. Choice number 2 is the "partisan" option. Choice number 3 is the "fair, let-the-voters-decide" option. Buchanan could still win in a new election, or the Democrat could.

      •  well. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Ahianne

        You can't disagree with my claim that I have doubt.  I do.  I searched my soul and it was there, right next to the desire to find out who wins Top Model tonight.

        You are correct that there are three options.  #2 would be really, really bad, but #3 has its risks too.

        •  I wasn't "disagreeing that you have doubt" (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Sanuk

          How insane/pointless would that be?

          What I disagree with is that your doubts are well-founded. I don't think they are.

          Yes, option three has its risks, but then, so do all political actions. If planned for and addressed, those risks can be minimized. If we never take any political risks then we'll never get anything accomplished. Just because it has risks doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, particularly if it is the right thing to do.

          personally, I come down on the "let the voters decide" principle. And, for a flawed election where the voters' decision is murky and may be misrepresented in the election results due to flawed voting equipment, a new election seems the logical outcome in service of that central principle. So, risky or not, it seems to me to be the "right" course of action.

      •  Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

        Because Congress has three options:

        The House has two options:

        1. Seat the winner of the election as declared by State election authorities.
        1. Take the rather drastic step of involving itself in deciding the outcome of an election.

        Only if they decide on option two do they need to consider the three choices you layed out.

        John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

        by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:23:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here are the two options the House has: (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sardonyx, DBunn

          To put it another way, the options the House has are:

          1. Do the right thing and stand up for fair and accurately-counted elections.
          1. Roll over and seat the Republican because the House doesn't have the spine to stand up to the right-wing howlers who dominate the "mainstream media".

          If they choose option (2), that will be a clear sign that the new House leadership can be cowed by right-wing pressure.

          So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.

          by MJB on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:46:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

          Your option 1 is equivalent to my option 1 (ie, seating the declared winner)

          My options 2 and 3 come into play along with your option 2. So, my three options still stand.

          I disagree with your characterization that they'd be "deciding the outcome of the election".  They will decide this by default if they seat Buchanan. But they will NOT be "deciding the outcome" if they hold a new election, whose outcome is hardly certain. The only option whereby the house will be "deciding the outcome" would be if they seat Jennings outright.

        •  It is not a drastic step (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sardonyx

          to follow the Constitution, which say each House is the sole judge of the qualifications of its members.  In fact, it is each House's duty to follow the Constitution.

          In 1985, the House voted to seat the Dem, Frank McCloskey, even though the Repub, Rick McIntyre, had been certified the winner of the Indiana 8th district.  Lots of questions about recounts, which votes counted, etc.

          In 1975, the Senate refused to seat either candidate for NH Senate seat.  Again, questions about the election and the recount.  The Senate is essence declared the seat vacant, triggering a special election.

          I've worked in an elections office and to have a 16% undervote in only one county shows that there is something terribly, terribly wrong.  If the voters were disgusted with the mud-slinging, it would have shown up in other counties.  We had a  Congressional race with nominal opposition and the undervote was about 3%.  You don't see undervotes of 16% until you're way down into obscure local races.

          I really think the new House should refuse to seat anyone from that district, declare the seat vacant and trigger a new election.

          "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

          by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:18:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Check your history (0+ / 0-)

          Congress has had many instances where they have declared a seat vacant and required a new election.  It was a rare occurence during the 19th century when there was an election that Congress DIDN'T declare a least one seat vacant and require a new election.

          And the reasons for requiring a new election haven't changed - not often fraud, usually incompetent election officials.

          This should be used as a great civics lesson for the country about how a democracy stands on principles and follows the Constitution.

          "There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance." Goethe

          by LouisMartin on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 01:30:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  I am EXTREMELY uncomfortable (9+ / 0-)

    with the idea that the House might begin to involve itself in the judgement decisions about things as subjective as quality of ballot design.  I can see every close election being fought again in the House with victory either going to the majority party or to a you-scratch-my-back coalition of House members.

    There's a lot of work we can do on stipulating what ballots should look like and testing them before use.  Refighting the election in the House just seems like a bad, bad, bad idea to me.

    John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

    by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:31:49 AM PDT

    •  Dammit (0+ / 0-)

      2 days in a row.

      100% agree with you. This is a very bad idea.

    •  Revote, or seat the Democrat? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Big Tent Democrat

      If the House were involved, would they be limited to calling for a new election or would they also be able to choose between the two candidates claiming victory?

      And would it be the current House or the next one that would have jurisdiction?

      John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

      by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:35:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's the next one (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        sphealey, Big Tent Democrat

        They could seat the Dem, but Jennings isn't even proposing that, and it would be a political disaster for both the House and for her.

        •  I'm not so much worried about (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Big Tent Democrat

          what would happen in this case, but what might happen in the future.  That is, would it be within the realm of possiblity that a future House, asked to examine a close race in which the losing candidate alledges some form of subjective electoral system failure, could choose to seat the candidate with fewer votes?

          John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

          by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:47:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In the 1974 (0+ / 0-)

            Wyman-Durkin Senate race, when Durkin won the second count by ten but before Wyman won the third count by two, Wyman claimed a sort of Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle: the race was a "virtual tie."

            •  Great. In that case. . . (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Elwood Dowd, Big Tent Democrat

              I recommend we seat them in a virtual Congress in Second Life!

              John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:58:53 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  a good scientist would probably agree (0+ / 0-)

              There's the old saying that "a data point is meaningless without error bars", and even optimistic error bars on how accurate our ballot-counting mechanisms are would probably give at least a +/- 10 vote margin of error, if not +/- 100.

              Or more subjectively, I'd say in a case like that both candidates are about equally good (or equally bad)---each has the support of about half the population of the district, and even if one has like 3 more votes, that doesn't mean they in any real sense better represent the district (they might've won because, say, a handful of opposition voters got stuck in a traffic jam).

              But of course we gotta seat someone, or else we'll be re-running elections constantly.

              "See a world of tanks, ruled by a world of banks." —Sol Invictus

              by Delirium on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 12:57:47 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Theoretically, they can do this now. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Buckeye Terry, Paver

            The House would lose all legitimacy if they did so. For example, they could declare that all dem candidates "win" and seat them over the Republicans regardless of the vote totals. That would be akin to an electoral "nuclear option", though, and would be seen as a congressional coup of sorts turning the country into a de facto one-party system. It would be an unmitigated disaster and would probably lead to a civil war.

            But, declaring a new election is hardly some slippery slope. The constitution provides the House with this power for use in just these sorts of circumstances. If the election was flawed and it seems clear that the intent of the voters was misrepresented by the results, it seems fair to hold a new one. The Democrat could still lose in that new election. Passing some sort of election reform bill along with a declaration for a new election "to ensure the House never has to intervene in this way again" would also help quell any partisan furor over it. yes, the Republicans will accuse us of wanting a "do over", but then they are republicans and will sling any shit they can if the House doesn't seat Buchanan. Its what they do. Expect it, prepare for it. But, I hardly think the rest of the country will see it as some partisan intervention if done correctly.

        •  Bullshit. (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LouisMartin

          She won the election.  This is one of the few cases where "doing the right thing" and "grabbing for power" agree.  Failure to seat Jennings will reinforce the frame of the Democrats as a "losers' party".  If we won't fight for Jennings, for our own candidates, why will voters assume we'll fight for them either?

          Democrats kick away victory time after time. I say it stops HERE.

          The insinuation that the feces of John McCain, a former prisoner of war, would stink, is outrageous!

          by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:20:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hogwash. (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LarryInNYC, Adam B, Paver

            She didn't win the election. She doesn't even CLAIM she won the election.

            •  What Elwood said. (0+ / 0-)

              Only more long-winded.

              John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

              by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:39:13 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  But she does seem to claim (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Sanuk

              that she would have won had the election not been flawed. That is the key point, no? The flawed nature of it?

              •  Agreed (0+ / 0-)

                I think there is a reasonable case for scheduling a new election, as she has proposed; although I wish someone would come up with a set of criteria that would keep this from being very open-ended.

                If candidates are listed alphabetically those with names beginning with 'A' have an advantage. If we want to address that I would rather do it through law, rather than calling for a new election when Mr. Zebra complains.

                •  Ballot rotation is required in Ohio (3+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  Adam B, Elwood Dowd, Jay D

                  for every race.  Each candidate must appear at the top of the ballot an equal number of times.

                  The assumption is that about 5% of voters will vote for the first name they see.  I have reviewed paper absentee ballots and I was amazed to see, in at least downballot races, how many people did indeed vote for the first person listed, regardless of party.

                  I have also gone with a Repub to help nursing home residents complete their ballot.  Usually, we read the names of the candidates to the resident, who then tells us how he/she wants to vote.  I noticed that in this case, especially in the downballot races, that the voter tended to select the last name they heard.

                  "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

                  by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:10:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  She most certainly did NOT (5+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            decon, Adam B, sphealey, Sicembears

            win the election.  No one is arguing that she got a higher vote total than the Republican.  No one claims counting errors or missing votes.  Even Jennings is not arguing that she won the election and should be seated.

            The argument is that had the election been conducted fairly she would have won the election.  Therefore, Jennings wants a new election conducted fairly.

            I personally believe that it would be a mistake to have this issue decided by the House.  Having it decided by State election officials isn't perfect either, given that they are political creatures as well.  But regardless of where or how the issue is settled, let's be straight about what the issue is -- the declaration of an election as invalid based on a subjective consideration about ballot design.

            John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

            by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:28:39 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Sanuk

              let's be straight about what the issue is -- the  declaration of an election as invalid based on a subjective consideration about ballot design.

              But that's not the issue is it?  It's not just subjective considerations of ballot design that are at issue in this race.  The issue is subjective considerations of ballot design PLUS solid empirical evidence that the ballot design lead to a large undervote (18,000) in an election decided by 369 votes.

              A conscientious man would be cautious how he dealt in blood.

              by decon on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:59:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The undervote (0+ / 0-)

                is an objective issue, yes.  The question of whether the ballot design was sufficiently bad to account for the undervote, whether it rises to above the level of "one of those things" (like a snowstorm affecting part of a state's vote), and whether the correct remedy is nullifying the election -- those are subjective issues.

                John McCain, you are _not_ my friend.

                by LarryInNYC on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:50:31 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  One of "those things" being a terrorits attack? (0+ / 0-)

                  Since your screen name is LarryinNYC, I assume you are in New York City.  What most people don't remember is that September 11 was also primary Election Day in New York.  IIRC, an entirely new election was held.  They didn't just count the votes cast up to the point of the attack.  But, only a relatively small portion of the city was physically unable to vote.

                  Perhaps you help by letting us know if the entire state of New York held elections that day and if the election was cancelled for the entire state, just New York City, or just NYC and surrounding counties.

                  "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

                  by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:19:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  If that's true... (0+ / 0-)

              ...it doesn't change the fact that she won the election.

              The insinuation that the feces of John McCain, a former prisoner of war, would stink, is outrageous!

              by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:26:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Agree (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Paver

      Terrible idea for the Democratic-controlled House to start making ad hoc decisions on who wins an election.  This is what the legal system is for.  Democrats must support, not subvert, the rule of law.  Not only is it the right thing to do, but I suspect the vast majority of Americans would see this as a dangerous power grab.

      •  Hardly. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Buckeye Terry

        A "dangerous power grab" would be for the House to seat all Dem challengers, regardless of who "won". A "regretable" one-time intervention in one county of one district whose election was flawed by all accounts can hardly be seen as a "dangerous power grab".  The Republicans might say so, but they are Republicans and that's the sort of shit they like to throw. But the rest of the country would not likely rouse itself into a pique over it, particularly if the intervention happens along-side an election reform bill that would prevent this sort of thing from happening again in the future. How is that a dangerous power grab, rather than "seeing a problem in our system and taking action to fix it" in a way that is fair and just to all parties?  

    •  I would rather see... (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Terry

      I would rather see these situations hammered out in Congress than in front of the courts.  That is how it is supposed to work.  If my side loses, at least I know how it happened, how to fix it, and that the decision was made by a body accountable to the voting public.  Taking, e.g the 2000 Presidential election, to the courts was a step down the road to destroying the Constitution IMHO.  

      sPh

    •  You Are Right (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sicembears

      Having the U.S. House get involved would be a mistake.  It would make the American People think that all the Democratic Congress thinks about is Partisan Politics. It would make NO DIFFERENCE in the balance of power.

      We should use this result as a springboard to make voting reforms nationwide.

      •  It's their job (0+ / 0-)

        and I would argue, their duty to get involved.  The Constitution clearly states that the House is the judge of the qualifications of its members.

        I would not support seating Jennings-there really is no solid evidence that she did indeed have a plurality of the votes cast.  (That was not the case in 1985 Indiana Congressional race, where there were lots of questions about the count and re-count and did the IN SoS certify the Repub as the winner before the recounts were completed.)

        A 16% undervote in a hotly contested Congressional race indicates something is wrong.  Has anyone done any research on the undervotes in all of the Congressional races in the country?  My guess would be that you would only see that type of undervote in an uncontested race.

        The House has a duty to investigate this.  Perhaps not seat either candidate at the start, do an investigation, then decided to either seat a candidate or declare the seat vacant.

        "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

        by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:27:32 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Yes, Congress should get involved (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    davidkc

    as I argued in a diary here.  

    I personally think that it would mechanically be cleaner to declare the Democrat the winner, and then have her tender a resignation creating a vacancy, than it would to simply declare the seat vacant, which might work, but has more legal uncertainties associated with it, if the candidates does (as she in fact does) wish to simply have a new election.

    I don't think it would be improper to simply declare her the winner and not have her resign, but many people in the previous discussions of this disagreed.

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

    by ohwilleke on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:32:14 AM PDT

    •  If House Dems should decide to declare the seat (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Buckeye Terry, Sanuk, Tally

      vacant and call for a new election, they would be wise to frame such action in terms of the failure of the Republican-led Congress to pass much needed voting reforms in the years following the 2000 election. In short,

      "Everyone remembers the 'hanging chads' of 2000, but (the Republican-led) Congress didn't do anything about it. And now, six years later, we're back in Florida trying to sort out an election and ensure that democracy prevails."

      "You can't talk to the ignorant about lies, since they have no criteria." --Ezra Pound

      by machopicasso on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:02:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  As I said in an above comment... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        machopicasso

        I agree that blaming the Republicans for failure to reform the voting is a good tack to take with this. If the House were to, as part of the "package" of declaring a new election, pass a voting reform bill to prevent future problems/abuses like this, it would be quite effective.  Republicans would be apoplectic, but the rest of the country would see the congress as taking a one-time action to redress an election that was, by all accounts, flawed and at the same time passing reforms to address those flaws so that the House won't have to take such action again in the future. Doing that would reduce any political "negatives" associated with the House taking such an action and second, it would use this flawed election to get something good done for the country in regards to election reform. I think that the country would see it as a "net positive" on the whole.

        •  Fooling Yourself (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          sphealey

          You're fooling yourself if you think there is any way that the public would see a Democratic-controlled House voting strictly along party lines to invalidate an election would be seen as anything other than a naked power grab.  If there is dissention on this point on DKos, why in the world would you expect broad support among the public in general?

          •  It was not seen as a "naked power grab" (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            LouisMartin, machopicasso

            in 1985 in the Indiana case.  In fact, the Dems gained seats in 1986.

            Hold off on seating anyone from that district.  Conduct a Congressonial investigation and then decide to seat someone or conduct a new election.

            "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

            by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:29:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  If the appointee promptly resigns and there is a (0+ / 0-)

            vacancy election, I doubt that anyone will see it as a naked power grab.

            "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

            by ohwilleke on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 01:33:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Tell me why (0+ / 0-)

            following the rule set forth in the Constitution is a "naked power grab"?  To a true conservative it would be based upon prior precedent and a strict construction of the Constitution.

            What else needs to be said?

            "There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance." Goethe

            by LouisMartin on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 01:39:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  Note that (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Big Tent Democrat

    This would mean you'd have to be prepared for a Republican controlled house to decide a disputed election like this at some point in the future. Maybe it's the right thing to do, and maybe there's precedent, but it could start a nasty habit of dumping elections with unhappy outcomes on to the House.

    •  It has happened before (9+ / 0-)

      Remember the Bloody 8th:

      In 1984, a House race -- in Indiana's 8th District -- produced a similar tangle. Former Bloomington Mayor Frank X. McCloskey, a Democrat, had won the seat in 1982 after the incumbent was charged with drunk driving shortly before the election. In 1984, the GOP nominated two-term state Rep. Richard McIntyre to face McCloskey. The first count concluded a week after the election that McCloskey led McIntyre by 72 votes out of 233,000 cast. Later, election officials discovered that ballots in two precincts in a Democratic county had been counted twice. Corrected tallies gave McIntyre a 34-vote lead. Without investigating other counties, the Republican secretary of state certified McIntyre as the winner. Democrats were up in arms, particularly when a recount in another county showed McCloskey with an overall lead of 72 votes.

      The Democratic-controlled House refused to seat either man, but paid both a congressional salary, which McIntyre declined. Republicans argued that the House should have to abide by the decision of Indiana's secretary of state. In April 1985, a special House task force completed a recount and determined that McCloskey had won by four votes. On May 1, the House seated him.

      There are other examples in that article, but this is the best-known.

  •  If it really is just ballot design (7+ / 0-)

    I guess Jennings is pretty much just SOL.

    But if she's collateral damage for genuine election reform, paper trails, logical ballot design, etc., I'm OK with that.

    Also, Hasen raises a very good point. Even if it was bad ballot design, that doesn't mean that a new election isn't a good idea, since clearly thousands of people who wanted to vote did not have their votes recorded.

    "Intelligence and stupidity have no limits. Unfortunately it looks like stupidity has won" -Arsene Wenger

    by brownsox on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:33:01 AM PDT

    •  Did the other counties that didn't (0+ / 0-)

      experience this type of undervote use the same type of machines?  If so, do we know what their ballots looked like?

      I have worked with similar ES&S machines.  I have suspected that the problem may be how the machines were calibrated.  If not calibrated properly, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible to register one's vote.  On election day, I was sent out to a precinct to recalibrate all of their machines after a voter called to complain.

      BTW, whenever someones uses touchscreen voting machines, I recommend using the eraser end of pencil.  That usually does it on the first try.

      Calibration errors would also help explain the errors recorded during the audit by election officials last week.  I don't ballot design would explain those errors-the elections officials would now what to look for.

      If there are problems with the machines, there definitely should be a new election, as that is denying voters in that county the opportunity to vote.

      "It's hip to be miserable when you're young and intellectual."--Carly Simon

      by Buckeye Terry on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:39:55 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  1 other county used ES&S machines (0+ / 0-)

        Charlotte County in FL-13 also used ES&S machines, but in that county the House race was on its own page, and the county did not have the same level of undervotes as in Sarasota County, which supports the conclusion that ballot design was at least part of the problem in Sarasota County.  The other three counties in FL-13 used optical scan readers and they did not have an undervote problem.

  •  Better the House than Scalia (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    sphealey, Tally

    Elections will never be perfect, though they can certainly be much better than FL-13's disaster. It would be nice if Florida, and other states, would work on ballot design to make certain people notice the opportunity to vote in every race, but that also will take time.

    Still, forcing a redo is the most democratic alternative. Letting Tony and the boys vote 5-4 or 6-3 for a Republican because Tony says that the Constitution says that Republicans win by default if there are any problems is far worse.

  •  political pragmatism (0+ / 0-)

    You are correct when you say it is an argument about political pragmatism.  I firmly believe we ignore pragmatism at our own peril.  Future Republican controlled Houses would use this intervention as precedent for more drastic action.

    When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

    by clonecone on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:37:18 AM PDT

    •  Future Republican houses? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sanuk

      How about letting the people decide correctly who should represent them, tehn once that's settles the Dems can do something about these crappy election laws to prevent something like this happening again.

      I still find it ridiculous that we can't run a goddamn election any more efficient than Iraq can (after we completely fucked up their country no less).  We need to have some minimum federal standards, like a freaking paper trail to prevent these types of problems.  Then we don't have to worry about the Republicans trying to pull some bullshit cause they won't be able to steal any elections and when/if they do legitimately win enough seats to regain a majority the laws put in place by the Democrats will prevent them from trying anything anyway.  

    •  Yeah, right. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sanuk, Tally

      Future Republican controlled Houses would use this intervention as precedent for more drastic action.

      They will anyway.  And if we do it the other way, they'll laugh at our weakness and take far worse action when they get the chance, regardless.

      The insinuation that the feces of John McCain, a former prisoner of war, would stink, is outrageous!

      by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:17:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  They've already done worse (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      JR, LouisMartin, Sanuk

      with the reapportionment redistricting in Texas. To think that any future Republican congress would be held in check at this one's unwillingness to act decisively is naive.  I agree with an earlier post that if calling for a new election is tied to Republican incompetence at fixing the problems of 2000, it's a winner of an issue. Feinstein has already promised to look into this.  Why not let the whole nation look into it?

    •  You are forwarding a "shoe on the other foot" (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      LouisMartin, Ahianne, Chris 47N122W

      However, if we are going to set a precedent, then by all means set the RIGHT one. For the House to seat Jennings when she has the fewest votes would be a bad precedent (even if she immediately resigns) because that would, in fact, give some future non-Democratic congress the precedent to rely on to seat their candidate in a questionable election. If, however, congress seats neither and declares a new election, that's a different precedent. If future Republican congresses were to take the same action (declaring a new election), rather than seating their own party's candidate by fiat, I would have no problem with that, as that seems perfectly fair to all parties (both political parties, voters, and the integrity of the House). It lets the voters decide the outcome in any event. Paired with election reform legislation that should help prevent ANY future congress (Repug or Dem) from having to make such a decision should also be a top priority in this mess.

    •  about Future Houses... (0+ / 0-)

      "Future Republican controlled Houses" will do as they damn well please. This was negligence in the democratic process; fortunately nobody died. I don't know how I would feel about this if the shoe were on the other foot, but I do know that when a clerk in a store gives me too much change, I hand back what is not mine.

      A revote is fair, and is notice that all elections must be fair, or else there will be consequences.

  •  standard designs for ballots (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Jay D

    from the conflicting practical information I have read, in particular the diary on Kos showing the deisgn flaws, it it would appear far more sensible to put time, energy and money into forcing the Congress to pass standard election reform laws including machines that leave a paper trail and give a receipt like an ATM machine,; easily rread and comprehended ballots so the public can understand who they are voting for, un-politicised election personnel, international monitors - in other words start treating elections as if they belong to the people and not the politicians. That would go a long way to bringing the people back into the process,. I would go so far as initiating mandatory voting as well as giving the vote to legal permanent residents, if they are good enough to pay taxes and die for America they should be good enough to vote for who sets the rules.

    •  Legal Holiday (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Jay D

      would also go far towards improving elections.  Also no more bullshit like in Ohio where one district gets plenty of election machines and another doesn't have enough.

      I'd suggest even making Veterans Day the election day, that way we'd all know on 11/11 we'd be voting.

  •  Adam, she has already decided to ask the House (9+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    JR, Adam B, Fe, Mad Mom, Sanuk, Jay D, FischFry, Chris 47N122W

    Adminstration committee to take up the matter.  

    "Although Jennings already has filed suit in a Florida circuit court seeking a revote, she said in an interview Tuesday that she also intends to contest the result with the House Administration Committee — which has oversight over federal elections — by the Dec. 20 deadline. Jennings and her attorneys already have met with Democratic staff members from the committee to discuss the filing process." (Roll Call)

    Incendiado para arriba, listo para irme.

    by gobacktotexas on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:47:42 AM PDT

  •  A tricky issue of federalism (0+ / 0-)

    New Hampshire's Supreme Court ruled this fall that the state Constitution, which includes an equal right to run for office, prohibits a long-standing law that gave preferred ballot placement to the party that had won the previous statewide election. The Secretary of State had to quickly re-design the ballots to randomize which party appeared first.

    If Congress now steps in and second-guesses those ballot designs, we're in a pretty tangled thicket...

    •  This is not a states rights issue (0+ / 0-)

      We need to be guaranteed the right to free and fair voting.  That is a FEDERAL problem.

      -6.5, -7.59. Dump Harry Reid. Put in someone who can rid us of Holy Joe Lieberman.

      by DrWolfy on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:53:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Did I say states rights? (0+ / 0-)

        Are you hearing voices?

        This is clearly a federal AND state problem. And it gets messy.

        •  Been hearing voices since 2000 (0+ / 0-)

          (j/k).

          It is a puzzle.  Guaranteeing the right to vote is a federal issue (I imagine some states would still have poll taxes).

          But, how far do you go down in elections?  Federal elections only?  State level?  County/City level.

          It's messy indeed.

          -6.5, -7.59. Dump Harry Reid. Put in someone who can rid us of Holy Joe Lieberman.

          by DrWolfy on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 04:32:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Election problems in Fl. and Oh. (0+ / 0-)

    Kathryn Harris may be gone but there's still no hope for Florida.  The state is a lost cause and should be prohibited from voting, at all, until it recovers it's collective mind.
    In Ohio they were required to show a driver's license to vote (a requirement I support).  There are 2 numbers on their license, which is a stupid thing to begin with, and the most prominent is over the picture.  The goofballs are so uninformed that many got the wrong number and their vote was, thereby, invalidated.  I, therefore, include Ohio in people who should not vote.
    Other voting restrictions should include any member of a fundamentalist religion (such as Evangelicals or Muslims) because they are obviously slightly, or completely, insane (evidenced by the fact that they are easy to convince of anything despite a fact).
    This is my honest opinion and I don't really care whom it offends.  

    • "The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

       

    "I am here because of Ashley." - Unknown Obama supporter.

    by rainmanjr on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:52:40 AM PDT

    •  Yeah (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, Sanuk

      let's just throw out that pesky constitutional right to vote.  Maybe only landed gentry should cast ballots.

      When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.

      by clonecone on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:55:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  not a question of offense (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, Sanuk

      it's a question of the constitution.  Or is that just a "damn" piece of paper, as our fearless president so quaintly put it?

      Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

      by eparrot on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:57:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not stupid (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Ahianne

      There is a number in large font printed over the top of your picture on the Ohio Drivers license. Clerks in stores most often write that down when a check is used. My real Drivers License Number happens to be my zipcode with an extra digit and a couple of letters. It would be easy to make that  mistake. Writing the number down only applied to absentee ballots.

      Obama doesn't look like Thomas Jefferson, just Jefferson's children.

      by OHdog on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:27:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you can't get that right... (0+ / 0-)

        without screwing it up then how, in Jefferson's name, can you determine right from wrong in the complex problems?  Since your state voted for a murdering egghead, along with his war-profiteering sidekick, I assume you can't.  Am I disturbing your peace?  By voting for violence and theft, Ohio and Florida (among others) is disturbing mine.  

        "I am here because of Ashley." - Unknown Obama supporter.

        by rainmanjr on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 09:11:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  it seems kind of (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Mad Mom

    pointless to me to seat her OR call for a new election unless the house first addresses the problems with electronic voting.  Personally, I'd be all in favor of a deal with the republicans to seat Buchanan in favor of both house and senate approval of a bill regarding paper trails.

    I know that there are disagreements among election reform advocates about a paper trail vs scrapping touch screens altogether (among other disagreements), but if there ever was a perfect opportunity to work something out, this is it.  It would suck that Jennings would be sacrificed - it does seem likely that with a correct ballot design she would have eked out a victory.  But it is far more important to prevent this in the future than it is to actually seat Christine Jennings.

    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

    by eparrot on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:55:53 AM PDT

  •  What is it with Florida and ballots (0+ / 0-)

    ONLY the Democratic races are affected, and predominately Democratic Counties seem to have a preponderance of politically active dolts who manage to figure out the entire rest of the ballot, but NOT vote in a race that is the focus of much of their local news?

    Man , that is one wacky ballot all right. And one wacky electorate.

  •  Mandate a new election... (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sanuk

    don't seat Buchanan otherwise.  How that resolution should be reached is an open question.  The fact that that resolution much be reached is not.

    Most Americans outside the Sarasota area won't pay that much attention to it.  How many people here knew that Hastert seated Bilbray early this year to thwart a court challenge by Busby?  Hell, I didn't know about it until recently, and I can guarantee that the public at large was totally ignorant of it.

    The Dems have the power to right an obvious wrong.  They were elected to right the obvious wrongs of the past 6 years.  They need to right this wrong.

    Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?

    by RFK Lives on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 07:58:33 AM PDT

  •  hmmm (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Sanuk, Tally

    I will confess some doubt as to whether one of the first moves of the new Democratic majority ought to be involvement in settling this election

    A) The Republicans would do it in a heartbeat. That doesn't make it right, but

    B) if it's the legislature's job, they're supposed to take it up, no matter how the majority is, and that does make it required.

  •  Paper Ballot of Record (0+ / 0-)

    This a perfect opportunity for th 110th Congress to make a Paper Ballot of Record the Law of the Land!

    Please strike the term Paper Tra....... I can't say it. Please eliminate the term from your mind!

    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell

    by phastphil40 on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 08:06:00 AM PDT

    •  Actually, this is not (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Sanuk, Chris 47N122W

      an issue of paper ballots.  It is an issue that DRE's historically have a large number of undervotes.  People tend to miss things on the electronic screen.  Having a paper record does not fix that. Having a standard that requires a voter to acknowledge that Yes they are not voting in that race before they leave that screen is the only way to fix it.

      It should also be noted that paper ballots have the opposite problem--overvotes, i.e., having people vote for more than one person in the same race.  Optical scanners are programmed to reject these ballots and allow people to fill out a new ballot, (usually up to a limit of three).  But with absentee ballots, overvotes are simply discarded because there is usually no way to ascertain the intent of the voter.