Daily Kos

Whittington was probably shot IN THE HEART

Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:06:05 AM PDT

okay, let's take the gloves off. America is probably being sold a bill of goods on the Whittington shooting and heart attack, and I am now referring to the medical aspects. Whittington has a flattened pellet in his right coronary artery. How did it get there?

You are getting some mumbo-jumbo from the landowner/hospital about how he just got some pellets "sprayed" into his skin ("like little raindrops"), and one "moved" into a vein, then just "flowed" down into his heart. Great. Seems almost like it isn't Cheney's fault, doesn't it?

Except it makes no sense. What makes sense, and what has been previously reported in similar cases, is that one of the pellets was shot directly into his heart.

MORE

Let's start with the propagandoid story.

Like every thinking doctor in America, I am scratching my head over the "wandering birdshot" confabulation. Venous blood (from the skin) can't get to the coronary arteries except by going though the heart, to the lungs, and back through the heart, out the aorta, and then into the coronary arteries. In this postulated journey, the shot would have gotten stuck in the lungs, unless the man has one of a couple of weird medical conditions that this healthy 78-year old man does not have. And this is a chunk of lead, mind you, not some bit of blood clot. It is heavy. And it is relatively big, and it doesn't squeeze down to get around corners.
No, people, that sucker didn't get into the coronary artery by wandering from skin into a vein into the heart, imho,
it was shot there.

There are two reported cases similar to Whittington's. Here is one. From the Texas Heart Institute:

Tex Heart Inst J. 2003; 30(2): 158-160. Copyright © 2003 by the Texas Heart® Institute, Houston
Gunshot Injury of the Heart An Unusual Cause of Acute Myocardial Infarction
Harinder K. Bali, DM, Rajesh Vijayvergiya, DM, Sunip Banarjee, DM, and Nikhil Kumar, DM.

In May 1998, a 30-year-old man was brought to the emergency room with multiple pellet injuries in the chest and face after being shot. At the time of admission, he did not mention any chest pain that would have
suggested myocardial infarction.... The cardiovascular examination showed nothing unusual. During his pre-anesthetic examination for an eye injury, performed 48 hours after the accident, an electrocardiogram showed changes indicating an acute inferior-wall myocardial infarction. Chest radiography showed multiple pellets in the chest, including one in the cardiac silhouette... There was no pericardial effusion. A computed
tomographic scan of the chest confirmed the presence of an intracardiac foreign body.... Elective coronary angiography showed complete occlusion of the distal right coronary artery (RCA) by a 2x2-mm pellet embedded in the heart. The pellet was moving in accordance with the RCA
motion. There was a thrombus in the RCA proximal to the occlusion. The distal RCA was filling through collateral vessels from the left coronary artery (Fig. 4). A left ventriculogram showed inferior-wall hypokinesia [infarction implied] The patient was managed conservatively with aspirin, 150 mg per day, and metoprolol, 50 mg, twice a day. At the 6-month
follow-up, he was asymptomatic and underwent an uneventful treadmill stress test. He remained asymptomatic when last seen in May 2002.

The clinical presentation of a penetrating cardiac injury depends on several factors, such as the type of object, size of the wound, structures damaged, the presence of pericardial tamponade, and associated
noncardiac injuries. Our patient had total occlusion of the distal RCA by a shotgun pellet, which caused an uncomplicated inferior-wall myocardial infarction. He was successfully managed with conservative medical
treatment. ...Despite the fact that a pellet had become embedded in the heart and was occluding the RCA, our patient had an uneventful recovery.
Only 1 similar case has been reported in the world medical literature; that patient also had an uneventful recovery after RCA occlusion by a shotgun pellet.

I hope this isn't too technical. Basically, the pellet got into the heart by being shot there....look at the impact pattern: over the chest (some reports say right, others say left); one of the pellets came out of the gun and blew through the chest wall and into the heart, where it directly or indirectly caused occlusion of the coronary artery and caused the infarct.

 Okay, I don't know for sure what happened to Whittington, and I don't want to sound like Bill Frist. But this scenario only makes sense. You wait, some thoracic surgeon or ER doc will come up with the same story tomorrow. But you heard it here first. I'm betting it will come out that Whittington was shot in the heart.

UPDATE: See this article showing that other MDs feel the same way.
Dr. O. Wayne Isom, the chairman of heart and chest surgery at Weill Cornell Medical College, said it was unlikely that a pellet would migrate to the heart through the bloodstream, as some have assumed from the account of the Texas doctors. The reason, Dr. Isom said, is that the pellet would have to enter a vein, travel to and through the lung vessels that go to the heart, and then lodge in heart tissue, not in one of its chambers. The pellets were approximately five millimeters, about the size of a BB, and larger than most blood vessels, said Dr. David Blanchard, director of emergency services at the hospital. A more likely explanation, Dr. Isom said, is that the pellet lodged in or touched the heart when Mr. Whittington was shot.

Tags: Dick Cheney (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 240 comments

  •  News Reports (4.00 / 6)

    News reports have said, "Face, neck and chest ... up to 100 pieces of lead shot."

    "Truck Stop Women," a New Film By Phil Gramm and John McCain.

    by bink on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:09:58 AM PDT

    •  Specifically "6 to 200" !! n/t (4.00 / 3)

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:15:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sound Like a Repug Budget Forecast... (none / 1)

        Maybe 6, maybe 200, who's counting?

        Live Free or Die Bold

        by vetfordean on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:43:27 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  NPR is still going with "sprayed" (none / 1)

          NPR, firmly in the grip of the RWCM, is still using the "srayed with birdshot" language, straight from lying Katharine Armstrong, Dictator Dick's drinking buddy.
          •  what is the difference (none / 0)

            what's the difference between sprayed, peppered, or hit with up to 100 pieces of shot?

            It's all the same.

            •  There is none. (4.00 / 3)

              They're all whitewashes. Dick Cheney, because of his negligence, shot a man and sent him to a hospital. As the shooter he is responsible for what happens after he discharges his firearm.

              Anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant or lying. Either way they have no business around guns.

              •  Dick Cheney, the tortfeasor. (none / 1)

                Duty, breach, cause in fact, actual harm, and Px.

                Duty:
                Cheney, like all 'bird hunters' who use shotguns loaded with birdshot, had a duty to use reasonable care while discharging the shotguns while around a group of his financing buddies. There has undoubtedly been a custom established over time to prevent injury.

                Breach:
                For an analysis of the VP's breach of any reasonable or custom-based standard of care, even though we don't know the specific facts as to how exactly the accident happened, res ipsa loquitur would be relied upon to show an obvious breach of duty. The injury speaks for itself.

                Cause in fact:
                But for the Vice President's negligently shooting his weapon, that man would not have been severely injured.  

                Actual harm:
                The man was shot with a shotgun and suffered serious injuries to his face and upper torso.

                Px:
                Risk rule. The man shot by the VP was a foreseeable type of plaintiff (hunting partner) and his injury was a foreseeable type of injury (shot by a shotgun used to hunt with). There appear to be no superceding, intervening causes in this very short  chain of causation.

                This concludes the brief analysis of the Dick Cheney tortfeasor hypo. Oh snap...you mean this isn't a hypo?

                "Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." -- Frederick Douglass

                by big dave on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:12:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  spray implies surficial wound (4.00 / 3)

              One gets sprayed by a hose, or pepper spray, or hairspray. Everyone understands what is means to be sprayed.

              Do any of these "sprays" penetrate the skin, let alone the chest cavity?

              Language means something. The only reason to use the term "spray" is to imply a minor event.

          •  Pattern simulation video (4.00 / 2)

            Dan Froomkin from the WAPO linked to this fascinating simulation from the Corpus Christi Caller Times where the photographer George Gongora demonstrates the pattern from a .28 gauge shotgun from 30 yards. There are some interesting findings and some pretty big holes left by that shot that might be relavent to this conversation.

            A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

            by dougymi on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:30:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  The graphic in the NYTimes... (4.00 / 26)

      ...certainly seems to center the shot pellets around where I, personally, keep my heart. But then my heart's been on the left all my life.

      -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
      Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

      by SensibleShoes on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:22:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Proof (4.00 / 5)

        that your heart is in the 'right' place
      •  Re: NYT graphic (none / 0)

        link?

        "I guess this is what you get when you elect leaders ideologically committed to the notion that government isn't good for anything."- Tom Tomorrow

        by A Ball of Lint on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:13:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right on the front page. (none / 0)

          Top article. Click on "Graphic".

          -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
          Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

          by SensibleShoes on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:36:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Link NYT graphic (none / 0)

          "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

          by martyc35 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:42:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  asdf (none / 1)

            "I guess this is what you get when you elect leaders ideologically committed to the notion that government isn't good for anything."- Tom Tomorrow

            by A Ball of Lint on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:57:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  for what it's worth (none / 1)

              it seems all the attention focused on the face is largely unwarranted- this guy was MOSTLY shot in the heart.

              "I guess this is what you get when you elect leaders ideologically committed to the notion that government isn't good for anything."- Tom Tomorrow

              by A Ball of Lint on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:58:34 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  illustration shit! (4.00 / 2)

                Looks like a chest wound to me certainly.  That makes the aiming by Cheney even more suspect. That is a hell of a misaimed shot! This wasn't a peripheral hit on an arm or leg.  The shot hit the man a squarely as it is possible to  hit a man without an immediate kill.  

                "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

                by Salo on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:27:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It wasn't misaimed (none / 1)

                  He was shooting at exactly what he was aiming at. It  was pure and simple sound shooting. It's a reflexive, instintive thing. He heard something from his rear, turned and shot at it without verifying that it was a bird. It's called sound shooting and it happens far too often when you're hunting. Very, very bad behavior and a genuine screw up on cheney's part.  

                  A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

                  by dougymi on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:38:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Screw up." (none / 0)

                    Or, as any shooter would call it under other circumstances, negligence.
                    •  Sen Simpson blamed the victim (none / 0)

                      for not announcing his location behind Cheney after having returned to the hunting party. Simpson said it is each hunter's responsibility to call out to announce, on a frequent basis, where they are located in relation to others.

                      I don't hunt. Is this accuate?

                      If so, how is Cheney's "sound hunting" negligent?

                      •  Both are at fault (none / 0)

                        Both are at fault if the story is correct. Cheney should never, ever shoot at anything he can't recognize as his set target and hs buddy should have announced his presence.

                        Minnesota, the land of 10,000 fees.

                        by goldenvalleyliberal on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:58:41 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Simpson is full of ummmmmmm shall we say, (4.00 / 2)

                        shit.  IT'S ALWAYS THE RESPONSIBLITY OF THE PERSON SHOOTING THE GUN TO ENSURE HIS/HER TARGET! End of story!  Homer (I'm sure everyone thinks it's a barbaric act) Simpson is sticking up for his old friend by blaming the victim! That guy sticks in my craw and he's pissing off a lot of hunters with this crap.  Blaming the victim won't work. He's doing nothing but defaming hunters by doing that kind of thing.  The person pulling the trigger is always responsible! You have to know where your party is at all times. It's not their responsibility to announce their presence. If they did that, they might be scaring game away so even in that sense it's wrong. On every level that's wrong.

                        A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

                        by dougymi on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:02:46 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  No, no, no, no, no (none / 0)

                        Cheney wasn't sure of his target, he didn't keep in mind where his shot would go, and most importantly, he pulled the trigger.

                        Simpson obviously doesn't know a damn thing about hunting or gun safety, or he is lying like a cheap rug. He has no business owning or being around firearms.

                  •  misaimed! d'oh! (none / 0)

                    I meant to say *"misaimed"** snark.  Looking at the blast pattern it seems clear to me that Cheney hit what he was aiming for.   this was not an accident it was negligent it is very hard to hit something you are not pointing the shot gun at. that was a bullseye if your sound shooting concept is correct.  It was a crack shot on an unidentified target.   If the man dies it is involuntary homicide.    will Cheney lose his licence at the very least??

                    "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

                    by Salo on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:17:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Salo, good point (none / 1)

                  Now I don't kill small animals myself, but I would think if your goal is to kill birds you aim toward the sky.

                  Now,last I checked heart, face level where Harry got hit, is not where birds fly.

                  Help. Clarifications welcome.

            •  An awfully tight pattern for birdshot. (none / 0)

              Wasn't it reported that Cheney, the tortfeasor, was at least 30 yards away from his victim? If so, my limited understanding of birdshot is that it scatters into a relatively wide pattern to tag those shifty little birds.

              That tight pattern in the graphic leads me to believe the guy was shot by the tortfeasor at a much closer range. The closer the man is to the shooter (our Vice President) the greater the degree of negligence, it would seem. The greater the degree of negligence, the more likely it is that there were other factors (booze, tomfoolery, etc.) involved.

              Of course, I'm relying on a NYTimes graphic to make this assumption. But what was the NYTimes relying upon to print that? Capriciousness?

              "Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." -- Frederick Douglass

              by big dave on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:21:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  that's a pellet of 2.41 mm in diameter (none / 0)

              that is round about as large as a pea, not very small. I wonder why the estimate is that he was hit by 6 to 200 of these pellets. If only a few would have hit him the remainding pellets would have to be found somewhere around the place where he was shot and fell down on the ground. He was laying on his back, bleeding. There is no reason to believe that he was not hit by a larger number, if all pellets were concentrated on a relative small area on his body.

              The fact that the doctors don't release the approximate number of pellets that penetrated his body, is pretty darn strange. They must know if it were may be 10 or if it were 100.

              •  In fact, the ER docs protocol (none / 0)

                requires them to look for entrance wounds and exit wounds, and count em up, to be sure there isn't any metal inside that the doc is responsible for, surgically, for removing. More than just a point of honor, it comes up at incredibly awkward moments at medical malpractice trials, too.
      •  Question. (none / 0)

        I have a question regarding heart placement for all you medical types out there:

        If it had been the other way around, and Cheney had been shot in the chest by Whittington, would all the little pieces of coal that the pellet would have dislodged have had any effect on Mr. Cheney's health?

      •  Wow .... I think you've got something ... (none / 1)


        SensibleShoes .... We of the left need to work the fact of our hearts being " on the left" side of our bodies into the daily dialogue.

        Yes .... !  America return to the wisdom of your body ... our hearts are on the left... !

        Yes we can, for ... we are one.

        by abarefootboy on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:17:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •   oops ... (none / 0)


        I posted my comment to you in the wrong thread below ... yet I still need to commend you SensibleShoes ... for your great insight.

        I believe we must remind America to get out of their heads and return to the wisdom of our bodies.  Our hearts are and always will be on the left.

        Yes we can, for ... we are one.

        by abarefootboy on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 12:23:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  interesting....but (none / 0)

    I would bet more that he was shot in the heart than it actually coming out that he was shot in the heart....

    After all, what can be covered up (and even what can't be covered up) is covered up by these asshats.

    •  good point (4.00 / 23)

      the truth may not come out. But from the viewpoint of a doctor, we are getting sold a bill of goods.

      fouls, excesses and immoderate behavior are scored ZERO at Over the Line, Smokey!

      by seesdifferent on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:21:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The truth will come out. (none / 0)

        It just comes out in pieces.

        Let me see. Whittington's condition has gone from stable, to very stable, to uh oh he had a silent heart attack and put back into ICU.

        Back into intenstive care? As a doctor, maybe you can explain why someone who is very stable would be in intensive care.

        hink

        Hyperbole will be the death of us all!

        by MrHinkyDink on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:54:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Stable just means (none / 0)

          that your vital signs are not fluctuating. It does not mean that your wounds are not serious, or that you are ready to leave the hospital.

          -- blogging music freedom and technology.

          by Ear This on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:57:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Mr. Whittington is on the roof.. (4.00 / 7)

          It's a punchline to a old joke.

          Seriously though, I'm usually really upset about needless death.  For Mr. Whittington, though, not so much for the reasons listed.

          • He is a Republican Lawyer.  I'm not big on Republicans these days.  (I do appreciate lawyers though.  They do champion my rights)
          • He's a friend of Dick Cheney.
          • His idea of fun is to run around with a gun and blast flightless birds.
          • He should have known what he was getting into when he signed the waiver (just like the Republicans defense of stop-loss).

          If he dies from his injuries, he'll be just another number that died from an incompetent member of this administration.  

          Sympathy for this guy?  Sorry. No. I'm all out.

          I spent all my sympathy on:
          -Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.
          -'Collateral Damage' (Human beings to us non-Republicans) in Iraq and Afghanistan
          -Katrina victims
          -American seniors who have been crushed by Medicare D
          -Working poor who will be/were crushed by the new bankruptcy bill

          •  So what's the joke? (none / 0)

            Don't leave us hangin' here.

            My dogs think we're all totally nuts, but how do I explain Daylight Savings Time to them?

            by Shiborg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:37:47 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, the version I know... (4.00 / 3)

              ...goes something like this (best told with a phony Irish accent):

              Liam went away on a long trip to Dublin and left his brother Paddy to watch over his home and his cat. When Liam returned after a month he met Paddy in the pub to find out how it all went.

              "Your cat died," said Paddy.

              "What? Just like that? My cat died? Did you have to break it to me like that? "Your cat died!?"

              Liam continued, "That's terrible. You could have broken it to me easily. You could have said, 'Well Liam, your cat got up on the roof and I tried everything to get her down. I took her bowls of milk and food but she wouldn't come down.' You could have told me, 'I climbed up there to try and capture her but I couldn't do it and almost fell off.'  And then you could have said, 'So we called the newpaper who published a story and all the neighbors came out and tried to get the cat off the roof but no matter what we did the cat wouldn't come down.' And you could have told me, 'So I called for the fire brigade and they came and set up a ladder and tried to grab her but she escaped their grasp.' And you could have said, "We did everything we could, my good brother, but there was nothing else we could do. Your cat went to the great beyond.' That's what you could have told me, Paddy. But no, you had to simply say, 'Your cat died.' I'm ashamed of you, Paddy, for being so callous."

              "And by the way, how's mother?"

              Paddy replied, "Well, she got up on the roof..."

              So, yeah... the docs may be telling us that Whittington is "up on the roof."

          •  Molly Ivins (none / 0)

            Sorry, don't have the link, but Molly was calling him a liberal Republican and "one of the good ones." She also quoted him as saying "prisons are to crime what greenhouses are to plants."

            He also lobbied to ban the execution of retarded people, as well as, to keep them out of general prison populations.

            hink

            Hyperbole will be the death of us all!

            by MrHinkyDink on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:36:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  NYT Confirms It! (4.00 / 4)

        Per Josh Marshall:

        http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

        Surgeons are now admitting that the pellet was in or near the heart from the beginning.

        John McCain will end Roe v. Wade if he's president.

        by Phoenix Woman on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:23:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Wow. (none / 1)

          seesdifferent, I heard it first from you just in time. Great call! So, when is Cheney going to say he's sorry? Oh, of course, you are a doctor, not a magician.

          "That story is not worth the paper it's rotten on."--Dorothy Parker

          by martyc35 on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:49:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  HAS to be... (none / 0)

          There is no physiological reason why a pellet "floating" in the circulatory system would stop and "lodge" in the heart.  being heavy, it would drop out into the aorta (should it enter via pulm. vein) and eventually clog in the nearest artery/arteriole.

          This "official" story is so completely bullshit medicine on so many levels that the doctors fabricating this meme need to be checked for competency...

          Republican recruitment for the 82nd Chairborne at an all-time high...

          by topicalstorm on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:27:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  This bugged me severely too (4.00 / 4)

    I think it should be called

    "Paper Intercostal Syndrome"

    Whittington was probably shot from a range of 30 feet, not 30 yards, and Biggus Dickus is trying to cover up this fact.

    Dr. Dabize at your service.........

    The Perfect is the Enemy of the Better

    by dabize on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:13:32 AM PDT

    •  yes, shot went between the ribs (none / 0)

      there really is very little tissue protecting the heart if the shot didn't strike a rib.

      fouls, excesses and immoderate behavior are scored ZERO at Over the Line, Smokey!

      by seesdifferent on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:22:16 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Granted (none / 1)

        but I think that this calls into question that "30 yards" statement.

        A birdshot pellet has a much greater surface area to mass ratio than a bullet and can be stopped much more easily by clothing and /or tissue, especially at a distance.

        I find this far less credible than the path of the second shot taken at JFK described by Posner in "Case closed".

        The Perfect is the Enemy of the Better

        by dabize on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:28:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'll second that assessment (4.00 / 4)

          There is no way .28 birdshot will penetrate through hunt clothes to the core at 90 feet.  NO WAY.  So what else is untrue about this story?
          •  They were naked? (4.00 / 3)

            And I'll agree with the other doctors here (tho i'm but a lowly med student).

            Most likely scenario is that this shot went through the ICS (intercostal space, between the ribs) and smack through the pericardium, to eventually lodge in the heart muscle.

            But seesdifferent and dabize, how would it get into the RCA?  Wouldn't it have to have lac'd the coronary to get inside it, and that would have caused pericardial bleeding and tamponade, no?

            I guess another scenario is that the shot lodged in/near the root of the aorta, where by it eventually was dislodged into the ostia of the RCA, and traveled down until it lodged in the vessel?

            People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

            by viget on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:52:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  he shot him in the chest. (none / 0)

              The patterns I have seen show he ripped into the poor bastard's shoulder and collar bone area and a bit lower too.

              Fucking Dead Eye Dick.

              "It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08

              by Salo on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:55:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  myocardial inflammation (4.00 / 2)

              I thought they said this AM on CNN that there was myocardial inflammation.  Never heard it do this, but that could account for an MI (I in this case being infarction, not inflammation).  Not clear, but I think the RCA was involved in the separate case study, not with Whittington per se.

              Inflammation, whether myocarditis or vasculitis, in the tissue parenchyma, could be enough to cause a CK or troponin elevation, and even arrhythmia (coronary artery bypass(CAB) surgery does that all the time (i.e. causing a fib at least)).

              Are there any records out about a specific arterial distribution for his myocardial damage?  I think he still could have had an MI due to foreign body irritation/inflammation without actual penetration of an artery.  But, that being said, I also saw a case of pellet shot at Hennepin County Medical Center in 1996 (when I was a medical student) causing infarction in a 20 year-old kid.  

              I guess what I'm saying is, I haven't heard the medical facts thusly presented, just what CNN said, and that makes a bit more sense.  BUT, I suppose it could have happened.  I just don't know that Mr. Whittington, Esq., would have been asymptomatic for two days, unless something actually did move around in his vasculature.

              Ugh.  I'm not sure this was helpful...  sorry.

              We must especially beware of that small group of selfish men who would clip the wings of the American Eagle in order to feather their own nests. FDR, via Maddow

              by vome minnesota on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:09:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I know what you are getting at (none / 0)

              and I don't have a real answer. That's why I wasn't sure about it until I did a search and saw the case.

              Here is an interesting case: I once killed an elk with an arrow, and when I cut out the heart to demonstrate cardiac anatomy to my daughter's school class, I found a bullet lodged in the myocardium. Had been there for at least a year.

              fouls, excesses and immoderate behavior are scored ZERO at Over the Line, Smokey!

              by seesdifferent on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:17:10 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  At that distance (4.00 / 6)

            ..and assuming regular shot (#8 bird shot) the pellets would sting like hard sleet in winter, marking your face. They would not penetrate winter clothing. [That is also assuming regular choke on the shotgun.]Mr. Cheney was reportedly using 2 3/4 inch shot shells loaded with number 7 1/2 birdshot.

            A comprehensive ballistics report would shred Cheney's story to ribbons.

            Here we are now Entertain us I feel stupid and contagious

            by Scarce on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:58:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  we really don't know what else he was wearing (none / 0)

            the only thing mentioned is the vest. Was there a heavy coat?  A flannel shirt? I know for a fact that shot will go through a soft fabric like flannel pretty easy . Denim or cotton duck (carharts) would resist pretty well but soft fabric like wool or cotton flannel wouldn't be much resistance.  Most of the vests I've seen and worn are pretty thin except for the lined ones.  Texas isn't that cold so I don't see a heavy lined garment there.  

            A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

            by dougymi on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:51:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Birdshot's stronger than you think (4.00 / 6)

          The only difference between a 28-gauge and any other regular shotgun is the number of pellets, not their size or velocity.  It can do a lot of damage at 30 yards.

          You have to be more than twice that distance, 80+ yards, before it starts to just "sting" and barely break the skin.  

          If you've got a shotgun, go set up a target 30 yards away and put an old piece of hunting clothing in front of it and see how "harmless" it is at that distance.

          It sounds like "chest, neck, and face" would also be consistent with a shot at 30 yards rather than 30 feet.  That's a very wide spread for a 10 yard shot.

          Cheney's people are lying by trying to downplay the severity of a shotgun wound at 30 yards.  I think that's the lie, not the distance.  If liberals push the distance issue too hard, we're implicitly backing the administration's spin that a shot at 30 yards is no big deal, and when ballistics shows it was 30 yards, we'll look silly.  So this isn't the argument to be taking...

          ---
          "If Obama is the nominee, we are doomed." -Rush Limbaugh
          "Always speak before Barack Obama, not after Barack Obama." -Olbermann

          by Troutnut on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:46:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  interview on the NewsHour last night-- (none / 0)

        with Dr. David Pearle, fwiw, who seems to agree with you.  Scroll down about 2/5 on the page for this segment (transcript).

        In order to hide their embezzlement behind a posse of demented hicks, Republicans' slogans must be short and superstitious. Grand Moff Texan

        by station wagon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 11:04:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dr. Pearles interview (none / 1)

          made me get the tin-foil out last night.  At the end of his segment, he spoke of leaving the shot in vs. removing it.  To operate would involve cracking his chest, which of course is always a risky surgery.  Many people can carry shot/scrapnel in them without repercussion.  But, if it does move or migrate, and surgery was deemed necessary, then Mr.Whittington would be given( I think most usually) BLOOD THINNERS.
          My husband has had his chest cracked.  But several years later, he had a kidney transplant, and nearly hemmorhaged to death because of them.  The new ones are very potent, and dangerous, and have a long half-life.  Yet again, undergoing a more minor procedure, was given them again,(even thought I warned them) and bled out again.  Technically he died. Twelve days in a coma, with every tube there is in a ICU unit. He pulled through, but it took a toll on him.
          My point is this:  I have a very bad feeling that the shooting was much worse than was stated, maybe even fatally so.  The cover up for his death would be migrating shot that HAD to be removed or he would die, then the blood thinners (an accidental medication error) caused his demise.
          Tin-foil hat off....
          •  wow, going through all that must have (none / 0)

            been incredibly difficult, I am so sorry, but happy that your husband made it through...  I've heard that thinners like coumadin can be dangerous and require careful monitoring.  My stepfather had a brain hemorrhage that may have been caused by inadequate monitoring -- scary and dangerous, long hospitalization, somehow he pulled through, too.

            I see what you mean about the old guy.  But don't you think Cheney would ultimately get the blame, at least in public opinion anyway?  Really, what's the likelihood that he'd see any significant legal repercussions, regardless?  Effectively, at least right now, he's above the law.  Sad.

            In order to hide their embezzlement behind a posse of demented hicks, Republicans' slogans must be short and superstitious. Grand Moff Texan

            by station wagon on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 01:53:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  20-30 feet would have been Cheneys distance (none / 0)

      from the man that he shot. I did alot of target practice with my older brothers with birdshot shells. Beyond that they spread and would not penetrate much of anything, let alone layers of clothing.
  •  Alternate scenario (4.00 / 4)

    Left this comment on another thread, but it might fit here as well:

    ...I think the delay in reporting was due to him NOT dying.

    How's this for a scenario:

    HW: Dick, thanks for coming out here today- there's something we need to talk about.

    DC: What's that, Harry?

    HW: Dick, you know I've been a loyal Republican for many years.

    DC: Yeah, and we appreciate all the cash. We always know we can count on you for that. So, what's on your mind? (starts to fidget slightly)

    HW: Well, like I said, I'm a loyal Republican. But I'm starting to get worried about all this war and spying stuff. I think you guys have us too far out on the limb.

    DC: (stiffens) So, what are you saying, Harry?

    HW: I love my country too. When I heard you had decided to bomb Iran, well, that just crossed the line.

    DC: I don't like what I'm hearing, Harry. You need to rethink this.

    HW: No, Dick, I've made up my mind on this. You guys are going to fuck things up, and it's just too high a price. I can't be a party to this anymore.

    DC: Harry, you know a lot about what's already happened. You're sounding like you're a liability now...

    HW: You've gone too far, Dick, and I won't stand for it anymore. What are you going to do, Shoot me?

    (pause. looong pause)

    DC: Harry, we go back a long ways....so I'm really going to regret this.

    HW: Huh?

    DC: BLAMMO!!!

    Hey, I mean, if they are going to leave it up to conjecture, one guess is about as good as the next, right?

    you were sick, but now you're well again and there's work to do- vonnegut

    by zzyzx on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:22:11 AM PDT

    •  The facts are damning enough (none / 1)

      no need to resort to fiction...

      IOKIYAR! They believe markets and competition solve everything AND that the universe is centrally planned.

      by No One No Where on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:44:57 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, it's still more entertaining fiction (none / 0)

        Than what Cheney regularly comes up with.
      •  fascinating web of political/bidness cronies (none / 0)

        Investigative reporter (Robert Bryce, journalist based in Texas, author of Cronies: Oil, the Bushes, and the Rise of Texas, America's Superstate.)in Austin talked about the business/political connections of the person who owns the ranch where Whittington was shot.
        http://www.democracynow.org/...
        "MY GOODMAN: But the idea that the only thing we know about actually what happened, obviously, is being filtered through the White House or the owner of the ranch, Katharine Armstrong.

        ROBERT BRYCE: Exactly. And Katharine Armstrong has every reason to try and protect Cheney, not Whittington. You know, and the other part that really sticks in my mind on this whole thing is, you know, that Katharine Armstrong is part of the Republican political aristocracy here in Texas. And NBC just reported last night that Katharine Armstrong has, in fact, lobbied the White House. She was paid $160,000 and was doing that legal -- that lobby work for Baker Botts.

        Well, you know, the other part that really is amazing here is just how small the world of Dick Cheney and Baker Botts and Halliburton is. Baker Botts is a very powerful Texas law firm. James A. Baker III is Of Counsel to the firm. It was founded by his great-grandfather. Baker Botts represents Halliburton. Baker Botts's lawyer William Jeffress also represents "Scooter" Libby in the criminal charges in Plamegate scandal. Baker Botts is, you know, perhaps the law firm with the closest ties to the Bush administration, and here is Katharine Armstrong hosting Cheney and having lobbied the White House directly on behalf of Baker Botts. The part that's the most, I think, is the most stunning is Armstrong nor Baker Botts will disclose for whom she was lobbying the White House for Baker Botts.

        AMY GOODMAN: Now, Katharine Armstrong and her business partner also - or her business partner represents Lockheed Martin?

        ROBERT BRYCE: Karen Johnson is her business partner, and she has apparently very close ties to Karl Rove. She lobbies for Lockheed Martin and has a number of other lobby contracts. You know, she has -- her profile has grown, particularly here in the last couple of years, because of her associations with Rove, but also just her close ties to the administration more generally.

        If I can just jump back to Armstrong real briefly, the other connection with Rove here is that Armstrong's parents, Anne Armstrong and the late Tobin Armstrong were the people who originally backed Rove as a political consultant back in the early 1980s. When Karl Rove started Rove & Company, the capital that he needed to start that business came from the Armstrongs. Further, Rove now has an office in the White House. The office that he occupies used to be occupied by Anne Armstrong. She was a leading figure in the Nixon White House, and so she had an office in the Nixon White House and was one of the people, in fact, allegedly, who helped to convince Nixon to resign after the Watergate scandal.

        So, you know, the Armstrong Republican connection here in Texas are long and deep. And the fact that this is happening on the Armstrong ranch, where Rove has hunted many times and big shot Republicans have been hunting for years is, I think, just another indicator of this Republican elite, you know, political elite that exists here in Texas, and hunting is what they do when they want to get together.

        AMY GOODMAN: Anne Armstrong was a director of Halliburton when the board chose Dick Cheney to be the C.E.O.?

        ROBERT BRYCE: She was. And the other thing that I find interesting about her and about the Halliburton connection is that for many years, while she was on the Halliburton board, she was also on the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. Well, why is that interesting? Well, because the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board has access to America's most secret secrets. And there's another connection that exists even today with Halliburton on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, and that is that Ray Hunt, who is another -- has close ties to the Bush White House, is also on the -- sits on the board of Halliburton and sits on the Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board simultaneously, which was the case that Anne Armstrong had for many years. She sat on both the PFIAB and the Halliburton board at the same time."

    •  In the words of not so great Peggy Noonan: (4.00 / 4)

      "Is it irresponsible to speculate?  It is irresponsible not to speculate."

      The quote that keeps on giving.

      Paging Doctor Dean.

      by ABBinMI on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 09:21:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Heard on Democracy Now (none / 1)

       http://www.democracynow.org/...

       Austin investigative reporter on Whittington:
      "He is a wonderful guy, personally very warm. He's been active in state politics trying to -- doing volunteer work, trying to improve the state's prison system, mental health systems. He's volunteered -- sits as the chairman of the Texas Funeral Service Commission. He's a very personally very honorable guy and a man of tremendous principle. And Democrats and Republicans alike have tremendous respect for him."

      Also Whittington was first taken to Kingsville hospital instead of larger, preferred Corpus Christi hospital WHY?????????? (This according to Paul Burka of Texas Monthly who also questioned this kind of physical trauma from 90 feet away.)  

    •  Entertaining theory, but (none / 1)

      there was a very early report that said Whittington and Cheney were not old buddies, old pals, but had only met last weekend. Moving in similar circles, yes, but apparently not meeting face-to-face until they did so over quail and guns.

      The degree to which you resist injustice is the degree to which you are free. -- Utah Phillips

      by Mnemosyne on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:06:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  For Cheney, shooting a friend is a tragedy. (none / 0)

        Shooting anyone else is "collatoral damage."

        My dogs think we're all totally nuts, but how do I explain Daylight Savings Time to them?

        by Shiborg on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 10:47:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Whittington not a regular hunter (none / 0)

        I can tell you this much for sure: Whittington wasn't a regular hunter in the way that Cheney is. His hunting license was issued the day before the shooting at a gun shop in Austin. (No link available — I'm basing this on material I obtained via an open records request to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department)
  •  you can see what you want to see (2.50 / 2)

    Do you think anyone CARES about these details?  That it makes a difference in their reaction?  Geez.

    That being said, quail are very small birds, so quail hunters use very light shot - small pellets and not much powder.  They also use open chokes (the choke controls the spread of the shot) to increase the chance for hitting such fast birds.

    Really, you gotta be pretty dang close for quail shot to penetrate clothing.

    I trust Obama's judgment more than I trust my own. Why are YOU telling him what to do?

    by Leggy Starlitz on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:22:45 AM PDT

    •  And Your to Blame... (4.00 / 2)

      Cheney Gives Hunters a Bad Name!

      Ok, in short, the reason it matters because it is a) a lie and b) it involves the heart. I hear the sarcasm dripping from some people posting about anyone caring about the details, but to the casual follower of politics these juicy details are great gossipy, sing-a-long fun! I mean, freepers wouldn't care about Cheney/Bush wrongdoings unless it somehow was connected to a tax hike, then they would flip out. But this isn't about convincing the bases, it's the middle and the middle gets it: shooting someone, lying about it and delaying an investigation is a HUGE deal, especially since it speaks to everything else this WH has done.

      Just my two bits.

      From the Southwest, Living in the Midwest & Loving the Purple that is Ohio.

      by Loganpoppy on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:27:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Mother nature designed us (4.00 / 15)

      in such a way that things which penetrate our skin do not find their way into our coronary arteries (or our brain arteries). That is an important fact for all to realize. If we were designed otherwise, we would all die of heart attacks and strokes in childhood.

      fouls, excesses and immoderate behavior are scored ZERO at Over the Line, Smokey!

      by seesdifferent on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:31:22 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  What do you think (none / 1)

    of the pellet that allegedly went into his liver? If he was hit from the left side how did a pellet enter his liver?

    I was wondering if we had a "doctor in the house."

    •  Hit obliquely from rhs, the liver's right there (none / 0)

      ...unprotected by ribs etc or even much muscle if its an inopportune point of entry.

      Likewise the heart pellet could get through w/o rib or much muscle contact.

      Haven't seen this latest report, but apparently HW came within an inch of his life ... could have easily bled out there on the ranch, and died with his boots on.

      Good coverage, seesdifferent.

      The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence

      by RonK Seattle on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:44:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the impact knocked him (4.00 / 6)

        off his feet. Calculating 1.5 ft pounds per pellet, he got hit by the equivalent energy of a 38 special police pistol round.

        I expect they thought he was dead.

        fouls, excesses and immoderate behavior are scored ZERO at Over the Line, Smokey!

        by seesdifferent on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:48:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I still don't get it. (none / 0)

        I was accidentally stabbed in the liver so I have first hand experience of what Cheney's victim is experiencing.  

        I agree that we shouldn't be focusing on the distance that the shot was fired. We also shouldn't  be focusing on when the police report was filed. The detective who interviewed me (these kinds of accidents are usually investigated) had to wait quite a while for me to come out of recovery and wake up. The police report could not be filed until then.

        I haven't seen this question asked elsewhere, but won't the hospital have a toxicology report on the patient? I wonder what BushCo thinks about the privacy of our medical records now.

        Great Diary!

  •  What you are overlooking (4.00 / 3)

    is the Warren Commission's Magic BB Theory
    (courtesy Jesus' General)

    We are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy unless it obstructs interstate commerce. - J. Edgar Hoover

    by tiponeill on Wed Feb 15, 2006 at 08:42:18 AM PDT